Guild Wars 2

Since you’re talking about post-specialization:

• On-clone death traits are now gone
• Phantasms don’t have perma-retal
• Illusions gaining heals isn’t exactly great … especially paper clones.

If you want immunity to blind … Zerker stance … blind is a condition.
If you want immunity to blocks … Signet of Might … unblockable works.

While I agree that Mesmer plays differently from warrior, it too suffers from blind, block, etc.

Do you know what happens when a Mesmer summons a phantasm while they have blind on them? Full cooldown and nothing summoned. The cast can also be interrupted. The phantasm can also be killed before it attacks. The phantasm summon can be LOS or outranged. The phantasm’s attack can be blocked/dodged, outranged, or LOS’d.
… this isn’t to say it sucks being a Mesmer, but there is counterplay.

Blinds and blocks are supposed to be used against big hits … that’s the best use for them. Ignore Mesmer and look at other classes. They are also affected by blocks, blinds, etc.. I don’t see why you think Warrior should be the exception.

What is wrong with rewarding someone for proper use of block/dodge/blind/etc. ?

What is wrong with letting the mechanics punish someone for using a skill while blind or while their target is blocking/dodging/invuln/etc.?

If you do well, be rewarded. If you mess up, sorry, there are consequences for that.

@Cygnus:
I think you missed the point.

I didn’t say anything about Mesmers being good/bad in large fights.

I did say that with 0 illusions and no Illusionary Persona, a Mesmer does not have a class mechanic … shatters do nothing in that scenario.

Regardless of whether or not a Warrior has Fast Hands, their burst skills don’t “do nothing”.

I only brought this up to explain a possible bit of reasoning that ArenaNet may have had … hence the wording I used in my previous post.

Now to the rest of my previous post … I wasn’t saying that this lone reason was why they shouldn’t be made baseline … in fact, if you read the whole post, I said that Fast Hands should either be made baseline or removed from the game and the Warrior balanced around whichever one is done.

Is there something wrong with that opinion?
Is there something you disagree with there?

I imagine Bandage Self will work really well with Gadgeteer or Kinetic Charge from the Tools Specialization.

My one concern is Mesmers losing their spot in groups to Guardians now that Guardians have a 30s Elite Shout that gives Fury + Quickness.

I fail to see the problem here … other classes miss with their abilities (or are blocked) by the very same things.

If your issue is losing adrenaline when you miss … please talk to the Mesmer community about losing Illusions to random AOEs/Cleaves that “whoops” them to death before they can even be used in a shatter that can miss, have its illusions be “whoops’d” to death as they run in to try to shatter, etc. etc.

Lose adrenaline because some noob joined the fight and spammed his auto-attack .. then come back and complain about it ;-)

Does the logic provided by ArenaNet employees for “why Illusionary Persona was made baseline for Mesmer” apply to Fast Hands? Yes.

That’s the best argument made in this thread for making Fast Hands baseline. The rest are pretty useless.

My only question on this matter is whether or not there were other reasons. I ask this because I do see one other difference:

• Without Fast Hands, Warrior skills and Class Mechanic still work regardless of the situation.
• Without Illusionary Persona, Mesmer’s Class Mechanic was often useless in large fights as Illusions die to stray AOEs/Cleaves and a Mesmer with 0 Illusions and no Illusionary Persona was a Mesmer without a class mechanic.

As I’ve stated in another thread on here, I do think Fast Hands should either be made baseline or removed from the game … followed by whatever balancing is required.

Fast Hands is quite powerful which makes balancing the absence of it with the presence of it a bit of an issue. That issue is highlighted by the fact that all of the currently “viable” Warrior builds take Fast Hands.

Now, this could possibly change with the new specialization … but I’m not going to say that the new specializations change this issue … especially with 0 hours playtesting with them.

It affects outgoing stealth … so your Mass Invis is will doubled for everyone you apply it to … that includes yourself.

This is different from what he was talking about which would be incoming stealth … that would mean that any stealth applied to you, by anyone, would be doubled.

I’m curious what fighting two PU Mesmers would be like … besides an obvious headache …

Screw comparing Mesmer vs Thief … let’s talk about how much meaner a Mesmer + Thief duo is going to be to run into.

Sword AA Cripples
Sword #2 Cripples
MH Axe #3 Chills
OH Dagger #5 Cripples
OH Horn #5 Swiftness et al. to Pet
Greatsword #4 Cripples
Shortbow #4 Cripples
Longbow #3 Swiftness to Pet
Longbow #5 Cripples

I think with the weapon skills alone we have enough CCs for that to not be a problem. Throw in utilities, sigils, and/or runes and it becomes even less of an issue.
Throw in some pets applying CC as well … now you just need to use the right tools for whatever content you’re playing in.

This is how I’ve always viewed it … on my Ranger and on my other classes.

I don’t think shortbow’s damage is that bad:

• https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tuDz1x50hIhREdfWni7Eim9MbG8cDRkIuuIsioXdruc/edit#gid=0

I do think it’s a very different weapon than others though … it’s about sustained damage instead of burst … though the condi changes have introduced some potential burst with Poison Volley since Poison now stacks.

I have a post on the conditions old vs new on the front page of the ranger forum … if you scroll down, you’ll see us discussing Poison’s damage per tick versus Bleeding’s.

Some people didn’t like my suggestion of Shortbow/Greatsword with Moment of Clarity so let me do some math to explain this.

(a) Swap to Greatsword
(b) 3 second daze/stun thanks to Moment of Clarity
© 8 second cooldown thanks to Quick Draw
(d) 3 second daze/stun thanks to Moment of Clarity
(e) Swap to Shortbow
(f) 2 second daze/stun thanks to Moment of Clarity
(g) 8 second cooldown thanks to Quick Draw
(h) 2 second daze/stun thanks to Moment of Clarity
… back to step (a)

So, at best, you have 10 seconds of stun/daze out of 28s; or 35.7% of the time. That’s not bad. At best, you can lock down your target for 1/3 of the fight … before factoring in any possible CC from pets or any utilities.

Now, obviously, that’s at best. You’re going to likely get less coverage than that, but your opponent isn’t always casting non-stop either.

I’ve been playing around with these two weapons together with Celestial stats and stacking strength and bleeds on-crit with the shortbow’s fast attack speed and it’s been doing well … despite not having the extra goodies we’re about to get.

I think it might be something to look into with the new specializations once they are released.

Sube Dai.8496:

I think (annoyingly) that condi survival will still be our strongest roaming build!

So no change? :-p

You’re probably right … but I’ve seen worse things make it into the game :-p Maybe we’ll get this one.

If they do, the next question will be “what are the ICDs” … if sufficiently short, pets with similar cooldowns on their F2s would suffice … or if it is a multiple of the Eagle/Hawk F2 they could still be F2 spammed to trigger it something like every other time.

It’s been forever since I’ve run with 3 traps … can you refresh my memory as to why it was required to have them for them to be effective?

Spike to CC so you could land Fire and Poison? … not to mention bleed + burn + poison does hurt.

If that becomes possible we might see a nerf quite soon :-p

I find the idea solid though … as far as conditions go, my view is:

Condition [Re-]Application > Condition Damage > Condition Duration.

@Gotejjeken:
Depending on the traits taken, we may see all sorts of other pets taken now.
If some of those traits have ICDs on the pet F2, we might see people taking pets with F2 cooldowns that are quite similar (if not exactly the same).

Having CC on F2 from a trait is big in that it means any pet can now CC with their F2 instead of just a select few.

Aye, it is looking quite sexy.

@kiwituatara.6053
Fellow crazy spreadsheet person :-) I like it!

For those without a spreadsheet, kiwituatara got those numbers for traited bleed and traited poison from:

• With the given bleeding numbers I get [26 + (0.075 * 2086)] = 182.45
• Increasing by 33% so multiple by 1.33 … 182.45 * 1.33 = 242.
• With the given poison numbers I get [33.5 + (0.06 * 2086)] = 158.66
• Increasing by 25% so multiple by 1.25 … 158.66 * 1.25 = 198.325

Personally, I have no issues with Poison doing less damage per tick since it does come with the added bonus of reducing healing (note: the healing reduction does not stack). If poison did as much as Bleeding, it’d make Bleeding just a weaker Poison.

@StickerHappy:
Is that not the same for other classes’ utilities as well? I know it is when I’m on my Mesmer/Ranger/Warrior/Engineer (my 4 most played). I could just take offensive utilities but then CC would eat me alive … though Engineer is a special case due to toolkits and toolbelt.

I fail to see how this is any different. Hence I don’t see what the hubbub is all about.

Quick Math:

• New Bleeding at 80 is [26 + (0.075 * CD)]
• New Poison at 80 is [33.5 + (0.06 * CD)]
• Poison does 7.5 more per tick baseline (33.5 – 26 = 7.5).
• Bleeding has 0.015 higher coefficient than Poison (0.075 – 0.06 = 0.015)
• 7.5 / 0.015 = 500 condition damage to make them tick for the same amount
• 1 / 0.015 = 66.6 repeating condition damage

Results:

• Every 66.6 repeating condition damage less than 500, Poison will tick for 1 more damage than Bleeding
• 500 condition damage, Bleeding will tick for the same as Poison.
• Every 66.6 repeating condition damage more than 500, Bleeding will tick for 1 more damage than Poison.

Note: Hidden Barbs and Poison Master change these values a bit since they change the % damage each does … if you want that math, I can do it later. Just ask.

Don’t worry, very few classes have access to Slow.

Keen Edge was 5 bleeds with a kitten ICD. That averages to 1 bleed every 9 seconds.

It’s only other feature was that it could proc SotF … but it wasn’t very controllable so it wasn’t that great in my opinion.

It also had issues if your build also took Sharpening Stone since that would affect its ICD. Not a huge deal, but did make it “worse” than it would have been without that interaction.

We might see Black Bear if someone wants that weakness but doesn’t want to take the Beastmastery specialization and Beastmastery trait for it … or wants weakness on a tanky pet.

Unless it has an ICD on it, I’m planning on taking the weakness trait (and the blind too if no ICD) and spamming it with my Eagle (Merica) and Hawk (Falke).

(1)
You’re assuming that the new meta will be a condi-heavy meta. There are several condi removals still in the game with some classes getting more/easier access to them due to the new specialization system. The new condition mechanics don’t make these conditions any harder to cleanse. 1 Burning is removed the same as 1,500 Burning. We also will have much less to worry about from conditions from power builds as opposed to before where they could still do some solid damage (especially burning).

(2)
Conditions aren’t auto-hit any more than Direct Damage. You can still avoid their application.

(3)
In each meta, there is team composition. If you look at the meta builds, not all of them are loaded with condition removal. Some builds have a few or even none (ex: 4/4/0/0/6 Shatter Mesmer). They can rely on teammates in their comp to provide any additional cleansing.

(4)
You do have Healing Spring and Signet of Renewal. They aren’t as trivially easy to use, but they are both effective and do their job well except in corner cases which can often be avoided through proper skill/pet management.

(5)
I think we differ on what is “sufficient condi clears”. I don’t think someone needs to have 5 skills that are all condition removals … though I will have at least one build that is all survival skills or all survival skills except 1 utility that is SoR … because 3 utilities that are all cleanse + stunbreak is sexy. Harkins back to the earlier days of Elementalist Cantrips when they allowed that (and more … because they’re elementalists and have to one-up everyone, lol)

@Mcrocha:
Look at dulfy.net. They have documented all the upcoming changes that are scheduled to go into effect next week on Tues, June 23.

True enough, but I don’t think it breaks the bank. Instead, in some cases it gives you choices that are actual choices (unlike some other sets of traits for Ranger and other classes where on trait is much more powerful than the alternatives).

Have low crit chance with Settler/Carrion/etc. … you’d not be well-served by Sharpened Edges so if taking traps the choice is simple.

Have a high crit chance and are taking traps … well do you want more re-application from you and your pets’ attacks or longer duration from trap conditions and more use of traps? It’s a fair question that I’ll likely end up doing math on in the future ;-)

High a high crit chance and aren’t taking traps … pretty obvious choice.

… and birds bring their own Swiftness (that they share with allies)

+300 to Ferocity as well :-)

It is definitely a way to make pets something that shouldn’t be ignored.

That 300 melee range on bird skills is exactly what all pets need, but, for now, these two birds fit the bill if we don’t have those ICDs holding us back on some of the traits.

I think the Weakness and +600 Toughness will help the birds survive. If you take Wilderness Survival, they’ll have Barkskin as well.

Now … all this is well and good, but it’s time for the most serious, most important part … you can run around with an Eagle named “Merica”. I do :-)

Old traps were not.

We’ll have to see about new traps. They are all going to pulse direct damage now too … we’ll need to see how much that damage is before we can be 100% sure about them.

@Chokolata:
Shhhh! Don’t let them in on our Eagle/Hawk spam! :-p
You can take both, they don’t share CDs, they both have the same F2 with an awesomely low cooldown, and are both birds (more reliable hits in PvP, swiftness, etc.).

These two excellent birds allow you to continue to enjoy the benefits you’d take just one for while still being able to benefit from on-pet-swap traits if you take them … otherwise, you might have more incentive to take two different pets depending on your goals.

If [Go For The Eyes] and [Wilting Strike] don’t have ICDs, these birds will be a pain in the butt for opponents; particularly power builds given that Weakness bothers them far more than it does condition builds.

Yep, it will be nice to force opponents to quickly recognize whether or not your conditions are a threat or not and when they need to cleanse them.

For Rangers, this is even nicer since this puts more pressure on opponents to blow their cleanses on damaging conditions … which then opens them up for the abundance of immobilizes a Ranger can bring to the table which then cause their target to be a sitting duck for the next round of condition applications

Things are looking nicely.

I may jump into that thread and debate your assumption that no one will take Poison Mastery though :-p

Mesmer …. will have to wait and see. Since I also play Mesmer, I can say that I do personally feel like I’ve received some “more powerful” traits than what I have received for my Ranger. That being said, I feel like my Ranger has closed several gaps in various builds and will also be more powerful.

Basically, I feel I will be able to skew more with my Mesmer builds than was possible before while I can have a more well-rounded Ranger build that has everything I want for a given Ranger build … though could always use more ;-)

Engineer … this is going to be interesting. I think we need to playtest against them to truly see how it will be. I agree that it looks like Ranger has the tools to deal with this though … goes back to that well-roundedness.

Thief … they are often about burst. Wilderness Survival and Nature Magic have excellent traits for combating enemy burst. The additional CC from traits will also help versus Thieves. Sure, a Thief can trait more defensively, but each defensive specialization they take is one less Specialization filled with +%dmg modifiers that they are taking.

Aye, I’m aware of the old math but I’m curious since they also changed many of the condi applicators. For burning and poison, they have gone from applying 1 stack to 2+.

I think people should also look at time to do full damage and damage per cast time. If the cast time is short and it applies a condition that does its full damage over 10s and the fight lasts more than 10s then it is fully useful. If you can frontload those conditions, same thing … we’ll have to wait and see …

That said … my intuition too tells me that there is likely still more balance work that needs to be done to allow conditions to compete with straight zerk in the PvE meta … I look forward to seeing several someones crunch the numbers.

Even though I play classes that can leverage stealth, I’m very happy to see some more mechanics in game that counter stealth. Kudos to Engineer dev(s). I hope it works as intended and we see more things like it.

Some mechanics in game don’t have nearly the number of counters as others. Stealth has been one of them.

The current notes aren’t complete. If you look, some things that were mentioned as being made baseline back during the 4 hour video are no longer listed. There are also some strange typos and wording. I think there was a bit of an organization issue with keeping track of the notes.

Super Speed and Resistance.

Each can be useful in some scenarios, but I do agree. It seems weird/counter-intuitive.

@TheFantasticGman:
Have you actually done the math for this or is it just your intuition?

Thanks for elaborating, Dave.

1. I agree … unless there is something they simply aren’t telling us or isn’t clear from what they have told us … spirits look potentially worse (you already gave the reasons why) … and we didn’t think that it was possible for spirits to get worse … lol.

2. I somewhat disagree. Not throwing them does give some less control/options, but few classes (if any) want to fight a Longbow ranger from range so I could see traps having a place with Longbow builds as it puts enemies in a conundrum where they don’t want the longbow pain from max range but they don’t want the trap pain from closing in on the ranger either. I can also see some tactical use of traps in WvW and use of traps for helping hold points in sPvP. Traps in PvE are just another source of AoE damage and combo fields in my book.

3. I’m not sure this is the issue … I think the issue is what you touched on … Ranger does seem to have a lack of damage modifiers … though we have quite an abundant access to Quickness. I could be wrong though. I have nothing but my opinion for this one :-p

4. I’m not a fan of Empathic Bond so don’t have the same issue with this as you do (and others have voiced having that same issue), but I do see the validity behind it. Condition cleansing options from traits were reduced when they placed them in the same tier of the same specialization … could be better.

5. I see that Oakheart in several lights. First, 5% over time is nice. Second, 5% combined with armor, protection, etc. is very nice. These things add up. Third, taking less damage multiplies the effectiveness of healing as it tries to mitigate the damage you have/are taken/taking. Healing 100 per second does less versus damage with 0% mitigation than it does versus damage with 5% mitigation. If I wasn’t clear enough on this, please let me know and I’ll try to clear it up.

6. I don’t think its complete garbage, but comparatively the +5% for a very short duration only after evading and it doesn’t even stack is rather mind-boggling.

7. Aye, I have been rather confused by this. To my knowledge, we don’t see viable Ranger builds taking Axe with Zerker gear. Perhaps some great player(s) have been doing this and are just not very talkative/social … but it seems contrary to how we see the weapon used.

That being said … perhaps they are trying to get this Hybrid weapon to be used in more ways than just as a condition weapon.

I just want to point out that if you don’t actually give details about what you think is wrong with the given patch … you aren’t providing anything more than “I don’t like it” … which isn’t really helpful to anyone and isn’t something that can really even be discussed … the “why” is a rather essential part of this topic.

That image isn’t helped by the fact that when I whisper a Ranger with ~700 AP to say “hey, most people hate it when you use Point Blank Shot for no reason because it gets the mob(s) out of position)” I receive a reply saying “I didn’t ask for your opinion. No one has complained about it before.”

A facepalm didn’t even begin to cover what all was wrong there.

It was worse in that not only were they just hitting PBS every time it was off CD, they were doing the same with Hunter’s Shot. Hunter’s Shot a mob right in their face (yes, Longbow in melee range too) and immediately break the stealth while still staying in melee with the mob.

Sadly, the class does enable that bad of a player to succeed in open world which then hurts the image of the Ranger class when that bad of a player tries to run dungeons.

I’m with you there Daishi …

… Mesmer shatter misses … Illusions are gone and it’s on cooldown.

… Warrior burst misses … Adrenaline is gone and it’s on cooldown.

… Thief misses backstab due to blind or is blocked/evaded … Thief is still stealthed and can just press the button again immediately.

Some seem to think that’s fine, but I think that “messing up” should come with a consequence … perhaps that’s just “too old school” :-/

Taking traps doesn’t mean all 3 of your utilities are traps … why not take 2 traps and Lightning Reflexes? Perhaps taking Healing spring too. 1 stunbreak/evade/immobilize cleanse and 1 Cleanse + Regen that you can splash in for more healing if you have Sword or Greatsword.

What’s the issue?

I feel like you’re talking past each other.

There are options for a Ranger to be quite mobile. There are options to be less mobile and have some range. There are options to be less mobile but even more deadly from range.

What is so hard about accepting the right tools for one role are different from the right tools for another and that there is a whole spectrum of options available for the class?

@jcbroe:
I don’t see a single thing there I disagree with except a very tiny thing … I think wherever the meta shifts to could actually change some of the meta builds from the current “obvious” choices to something else. In fact, I’m hoping they do, or at least help open up some build diversity for those classes.

As things are now, in my opinion we have classes that are part of the meta but don’t have much build diversity and we have classes that have build diversity because they’re not part of the meta. My hope is that the changes and/or expansion will open up build diversity for those in the meta and allow those with build diversity to bring that into the meta. Heck, two meta builds per class would be a feat and I’d be very happy with that.

@Quarktastic:
That is true … but we weren’t just talking about PvE were we?

In fact, if you look at their posts, they were talking about PvP. I was as well.

Those sounds like stupid groups that don’t use meta because they understand it but use meta because it’s what smarter people told them to use.

Smart players are well aware of what each class is supposed to be doing to do their utmost in each bit of content.

While you are correct that it is largely the player … the build does provide caps on what the player can and can’t do. This is where builds come into play.

Meta builds aside, another example of the build being important is the Grawl instance in fractals. If your Guardian/Mesmer/Thief/etc. don’t take skills for helping handle the abundance of projectiles from the elementals spawned at 75%/50%/25% … then there is something wrong unless it was discussed beforehand that it would be sufficient for just a few groupmates to spec to deal with it.

Using the right tool for the job and using that tool well is what is expected in good groups.

anduriell.6280:

Again i’ve shown you how mediguard got much more powerfull rigth now and you keep talking trash. You are free to go back to your main engie.

(1)
How did you “prove” how mediguard is more powerful right now? You showed no proof whatsoever. You just stated some trait changes … nothing more.

(2)
Engineer is most definitely not my main. How many times do I need to show that I’ve been here playing Ranger since 2013?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/ranger/Beastmastery-Math/first

Can you read that? It’s from April 4th, 2013.
I assume you can’t do the math, but that’s over 2 years ago and there are several others buried in this subforum’s history by me that are from back then and even earlier.

@anduriell:
Here you go again … how in the world is power ranger “the only way”? Rangers have been and still do play condition builds with great success. I see nothing that is going to change this and you have provided no reasoning for it.

Stop what? Request that you provide logical reasoning if you’re going to continue spewing garbage on the forums? Provide actual logical reasoning that shows your opinions are unsupported garbage?

You obviously don’t have a clue … look in the Ranger forum history … I’ve been a Ranger around here for years … I’ve even linked some of my old posts to you before from 2013. Yet you still think that people that disagree with you don’t have much experience with Ranger despite having no evidence to support you (as usual) and evidence that counters that thought (that you ignore like everything else).

Feel free to explain how I embarrassed myself while you’re at it. It seems others are, as usual, agreeing with logic I provided.

How in the world did your jibberish “prove me wrong” ?

You mentioned some trait changes other classes got, that you don’t remember them all at the moment, and then just stated that they weren’t nerfed like Ranger. There was not logic. No reasoning. No real even facts other than stating something and then making a conclusion without any real connection between the two.

All you did is what you always do … provide nothing but a fart in the wind.

Just as other classes, like those you mentioned, had multiple traits combined into single traits … so too did the Ranger? Look at Ranger traits for Survival, Longbow, Greatsword, Pets Movement/Ferocity/Swap_Recharge/Skill_Recharge, etc.. These are just a few of the example of traits that used to be several disparate traits that are now single traits that combine them all.

Exactly.
Think about it. Who is going to benefit from staying at range in a fight against a Longbow Ranger? Few if anyone.

So now their preference is to get close. That involves moving toward the Ranger who has been dropping traps.

Summary:

• They don’t want to stay at Range because that makes Ranger longbow hurt
• They don’t want to recklessly run close to the Ranger because traps hurt

On paper it doesn’t appear bad … we’ll have to playtest though.

Also, with the new WvW maps coming out that will have more chokepoints, can you imagine a couple Rangers and/or Guardians all stacking their traps on one spot. You might insta-gib someone … or multiple people. Even worse with the Ranger(s)/Guardian(s) right there applying more pressure :-)

People need to get over trying to fit every skill into every game mode. Some are better for some game modes than others and some are worse for some game modes than others.

@anduriell.6280:
First, I’m not theorycrafting … I actually play … it’s why I knew things like Natural Regeneration healing the Ranger … as opposed to you who thought it only healed the pet like its tooltip says.

Second,

• Are they not also sources of cleansing? they are
• Is Healing Spring great for leaping through for extra healing? yes, it is
• Is Healing Spring great if you don’t have other sources of regeneration? yes, it is
• Do some builds get close enough to their target to benefit from brown bear? yes, some do
• Is your pet always dead and gone when you need SoR? no, it isn’t … especially if you manage it well

Now, if you or others are too inept to understand these things, that’s on you, not on the Ranger class.

Lastly, if you look at several current meta builds, some don’t take any condition removal … or very little. Why? Because the metas are also about teamwork and some builds rely on the other builds in their team’s comp to remove conditions from them. The 4/4/0/0/6 Mesmer Shatter Spec is an excellent example of this.

Again, if you don’t understand this, it’s on you … it’s not on the class.

Ranger can’t take a room temp IQ and raise it.