Guild Wars 2

Your first response … to me saying the following are not about celestial/shoutbow is to act like a child about me talking about celestial and shoutbow … lol

Less is less … if it did 10 less damage that would be a big difference from if it did 400 less or anything in between. “less is less” is a cop out.

Let’s keep what to its core? You do realize that traits have changed in several ways that I laid out … don’t you? …

Talking about additional sources of burning is not restricted to shoutbow. What you replied to with that garbage said not one thing about shoutbow.

3 stacks 1 second of burning is not the same as 1 stack of 3 seconds of burning … 3 stacks for 1 second will do the same damage over 1 second. It does the total damage faster and is less likely to have that damage cleansed.

I don’t care that you’re keeping it to a simple-minded, incomplete “discussion”. Those are valid points about the other things that Warrior longbow brings to a build. If you don’t want to discuss them, that’s fine. We’ll just make it a point that you’re ignoring the other nice things Longbow brings to a build when you’re discussing your opinion. Way to ignore facts.

You don’t know how much it will hurt power builds. Period. You are also ignoring the other benefits of the weapon. You also have no clue how the meta might change with the changes or if some of the specialization changes will compensate for this change to condi damage. You have so little information it’s pathetic.

I did not say that longbow will become. I said “so what if it did”. There is a big difference that you need to learn to wrap your head around.

Your “answers” can only be called that in the loosest of terms. I hope they at least illustrate to others the type of person they are getting an opinion from someone who appears incapable of maturely discussing something … nor supporting the opinion he is spewing.

@nicknamenick:
Let me repeat the parts that have nothing to do with Celestial/Shoutbow … since you either missed them or don’t have an answer to these points about your lack of information.

Burning will do less damage when you have less than 600 condi damage … but we don’t know how much less

We also don’t know what else can now be gained via the specializations that could make it still work … I’m unaware of any playtesting with this that’s been discussed.

We also don’t know if the additional sources of burning (traited Longbow AAs) will be able to make up for the lower condition damage.

We also don’t know how good Fan of Fire will be since it will be applying up to 3 stacks of burning instead of just 1.

These points are all valid regardless of Celestial/Power/Condi … Shoutbow or not Shoutbow.

Also, aren’t some of the defining features of the Warrior longbow:

• Might Stacking
• Easy use of Cleansing Ire

Those aren’t changing.

Lastly … let’s look at what you’re really complaining about … Longbow may be becoming more of a condi-weapon. Do you see Necromancers complaining about Scepter being bad in power builds? No. Do you see Engineers complaining about Pistol being bad in power builds? No.

If longbow becomes more of a condition weapon … so what?

Are you so new to MMOs that you’re not aware that part of their existence is changes like these and they are “issues” to you?

If you think I bring discussions down … lol … I’m not sorry that I think people should provide support for their opinions in the form of facts/logic.

If you don’t think you need to prove anything when you make a claim, then you’re quite foolish. If you don’t prove it, it’s just your unsupported opinion and has as much weight as my bowel movements (probably less).

Yes, you know that you’ll do less condi damage if you have less than 600 condi damage on your gear. But do you know how much condi damage you’ll have on that Celestial Gear that is part of the current Shoutbow build? No, you don’t.

Do you know how much less you’ll do with less than 600 condi damage? No, you don’t. You have no clue whatsoever.

You also don’t know how the meta is going to change when all the Shoutbow shout traits are a single trait.

You don’t know how it’s going to change things when people can’t mix more than 3 traitlines but get 3 minor and 3 major traits in all 3 trait lines that they pick … more than they could before.

You don’t know how it’s going to change things now that longbow has a trait that is going to allow it’s auto-attacks to apply burning; the highest damage DoT in the game. Sure, it’ll do less than before, but you can now apply it far more easily. I could avoid the burning from a Warrior’s longbow in the current system, but with it being applied from the auto-attacks … not really an option … can’t regen endurance/blocks/etc. fast enough to evade each AA.

There are so many things that you don’t know. So many variables. Yet you’re just so sure of yourself … and you’re not needing to prove anything … because … logic … lol.

I don’t care which you’re talking about … your argument was flawed.

“why use that evade as an evade?” was your question … well, the obvious answer is “because that’s what it is … an evade”.

Of course no one is going to “moan and cry” for a buff … except for the few of us who think beyond “more power” and want “balance”.

The reasoning for wanting these baselined is flawed. If you want to provide some good reasons, go for it. Otherwise it’s just people peeing in the wind because they saw other classes unwarranted whining.

@anduriell.6280
I feel like we are playing in two completely different worlds…

Can you please explain to me how “Ranger lacks sustain”?

We went over this in another thread where you claimed that we didn’t have sustain, I pointed out several sources, you were unaware that one of those traits actually heals us too (because its tooltip doesn’t say so) nor were you aware of the coefficients and how well it all stacked together.

More evades?

• Sword has 2
• Dagger has 1
• Shortbow has 1
• Lightning Reflexes is an evade
• Greatsword AA #3 is an evade

How much more evade options do we need on our Ranger?

More survivable? On top of those evades, we also have block on Greatsword, stealth on Longbow, a very low CD Knockback on Longbow, access to additional CC from our pets, Signet of Stone invuln and Protect Me pseudo-invuln.

How does ranger lack sustained DPS compared to other classes?

I feel like you really just want a Warrior with current Healing Signet and Adrenal Health or an Elementalist.

Other than the lamenting of previous DPS numbers (it’s not like Warrior is weak right now), it was enjoyable.

I love the conclusions without any actual numbers given other than when you start doing more damage at over 600 condi damage.

We still don’t even know the dmg per tick … how the meta might shift due to all the changes (it’s a boatload people … things are likely to change) … how stats strictly from gear is going to look … etc. etc.

But, sure, you all quite sure what ArenaNet is aiming, how bad it’s going to be, and what builds are going to be OP/UP.

./sigh

No worries ronpierce.

I did mention before that the “ease of balancing” could just as easily be accomplished by simply removing Fast Hands and Embrace the Pain. In fact, we discussed at one time that ease of balancing could be accomplished via:

• Make them baseline and balance from there
• Remove them and balance from there
• Make the difference between having and not-having the traits much smaller than the current +0% versus +100% (or more) disparity … and balance from there.

I can’t blame you if you missed that as I didn’t repeat it as often as I’m honestly very tired of this topic now due to a dearth of any new thoughts coming into it worth discussing … though this post of yours is a nice change.

1.) I agree.

2.) I agree.

3.) I agree.

4.) I think this is likely true. Warrior has a long history of being solid in each meta and I don’t see anything that is going to make them weaker or less desirable in any other way … but we don’t know for sure how the meta will change so I can’t say that I 100% agree.

5.) I disagree. It’s possible, but there are some nice possible alternatives coming with the new system. It also depends on how the meta shifts. I disagree because I don’t think it’s as cut-in-stone.

6.) Lol. I agree.

Go big or go home.

My clones take shots for allies all the time. They are big. They are sexy. They are well-dressed. They attract attacks :-p

@Mistsim:
This happens in every class forum. Plenty of forums and most of them don’t provide anything to back up what they suggest … not even logic.

@Noobie:
That’s because that build is a glass cannon … you don’t leave a glass cannon alone to freely DPS you no matter what class they are.

I wish you hadn’t shown me that link to the Ranger subforum … ugh

I disagree in the spirit and logic of this thread.

“Just because other classes are asking for … we should too”. Really?!
If we’re going to apply this logic, we might as well just go start the apocalypse by acting like idiots “because someone else is acting like an idiot, so we should too”.

It’s bad logic.

There’s also a bit of a bad attitude/spirit about it.

If you see someone doing something stupid, don’t drop to their level. They’ll beat you there as they have far more experience ;-)

cyyrix.6105:

Sebrent.3625:

If the Thief is downing you, it doesn’t matter how much “less useful” you make him due to it “taking more time” or “costing more initiative” … he is winning those encounters and thus giving his team an advantage.

• He scored points for his team by taking you out
• You will have more time wasted respawning and running back to the action than he will regenerating his initiative.

Those “small victories” aren’t enough to make up for these “bigger victories” that the Thief is gaining throughout the match.

Very true, but the idea is that by running power shatter, you’ll help your teammates score more of those “bigger victories” overall…you accept a weakness to thieves for the greater good.

Perhaps because the thief took longer to kill you, he didn’t +1 a fight somewhere else, so your team won that fight and capped the node. That’s far more valuable than 5 points!

Anyhow, at least now we’re thinking in terms of a match instead of a 1v1!

That’s all great in theory, but here are some issues:

• The Thief is able to do the same +1 … so that balances out what is happening when you +1 elsewhere.
• The Thief is more mobile than you in most scenarios … so now they are able to +1 more.
• As you’ve admitted, the Mesmer intersecting with the Thief is an advantage to the Thief’s team

So you have the Thief either beating the Mesmer directly in combat or indirectly by being able to +1 faster via their superior mobility.

@Khenzy:
Yes, that is all that changed my mind … I ended up changing my own mind … people just needed to be patient :-p

We’ll see how it goes. Apparently the next time we get a big patch we’ll be seeing the new system in-place … then we can better speak to all of this.

Tornupto.2304:

Sublimatio.6981:

sword on ranger is horrible. cant dodge while autoattacking and the #2 skill has a long casting time, it should be instant (its a dodge after all, should be extremely responsive)

Why horrible? Use Skill 3 if you have not enough time for skill 2. Its casting time is short enough to dodge most Attacks of PvE Enemies. E.g. you can evade every attack of Alpha in CoE without using a single dodge.

That’s the same as saying “Why use skill 3? You have dodge roll.”
… because sometimes #3 is on cooldown and you don’t have dodge rolls. In a good fight, you should be strapped for cooldowns and endurance … else your opponent isn’t giving you a good fight.

If I remember correctly, I believe it was the Siamoth with the consume plasma. Players would use it, reset the F2, repeat.

We’re not asking for a nerf, Zero Day … at least not those that have most recently posted.

Instead, we’re discussing how ArenaNet needs to stop having traits that increase the effectiveness of skills/mechanics by +100% as it leads to the scenarios mentioned where either the skill/mechanic is UP without the trait (since balanced around having the trait) or the skill/mechanic is OP with the trait (since balanced around not having the trait).

Someone could try to say "but it could be balanced around +50% effectiveness … in which case it would be both as it’d be UP without that +50% it was balanced around and it would be OP with +100% given how that’s double the increase it was balanced around.

I was confused about how your video was pertinent until the fight at the end … lmao.

Honestly, I wouldn’t mind the leap being removed if it meant we gained more control over our character. I can stick to my opponents pretty darn well with melee weapons with my other classes and they don’t have canines helping to keep the target locked down.

You can’t really do the math with the information you provided.

They showed us tooltips without us knowing the amount of condition damage.

Even then, we’d need to have at least one other example of the tooltip with a separate known amount of condition damage.

Without that information, it is difficult to know what the damage will be like.

We don’t know what the constant damage is that it does with 0 condition damage, and we don’t know what the coefficient is for condition damage … for both the tick and on-skill-use.

If the Thief is downing you, it doesn’t matter how much “less useful” you make him due to it “taking more time” or “costing more initiative” … he is winning those encounters and thus giving his team an advantage.

• He scored points for his team by taking you out
• You will have more time wasted respawning and running back to the action than he will regenerating his initiative.

Those “small victories” aren’t enough to make up for these “bigger victories” that the Thief is gaining throughout the match.

Seeing how torment works, I imagine what we’ll see is the same:

• Does less damage than bleeding when your opponent isn’t doing X (Torment = moving, Confusion = using skills)
• Does more damage than bleeding when your opponent is doing X (Torment = moving, Confusion = using skills)

So I assume the per-tick will be less than bleeding.

How the damage due to skill use is done is what I’m unsure of. Will they increase the tick if your opponent used a skill since the last tick? Or will they have it tick extra damage each time your opponent uses a skill?

“As long as the build are so adrenaline hungry”, so of course you’ll want to feed into what your build needs.

What you’d need is either:

• equal alternatives on how to feed it (that can’ t be combined or aren’t OP when combined)
• builds that aren’t as adrenaline hungry

Yes?

@cyrrix:
The plausibility of your “Solution 2” is what has been drawn into question. Most believe that given equal skill level, the Thief will beat the standard Power Shatter spec’d mesmer.

You either agree or disagree with this.

Exactly!
The math for that would be
+40% would give it +4 seconds
-100% would give it -10 seconds
10 +4 – 10 = 4

The takeaway is this … you can essentially be nearly immune to these conditions from anyone that is not taking +condition duration … so you are unlikely to have to worry about these conditions from an opponent running a power build … which helps you avoid their burst.

It raises the minimum damage that confusion will do as before it could do 0 damage if your opponent simply didn’t attack while they had confusion on them.

What it will do to the maximum damage has yet to be seen. We’ll need to playtest it. Right now we don’t even have the numbers for it nor how exactly it will function.

Eurantien.4632:

All the pet traits used to be active out of combat, it led to issues. For example, you could pre stack up to like 2 minutes of boons in only a few seconds. In addressing this they further prevented this type of behavior by changing all pet related things to be in combat only.

The problem is that they didn’t do this for everyone. Some other classes can still do this with the right traits and/or stats and just set a macro to cast whatever every X seconds while they eat. Then they come back with several minutes of whatever boon(s) they were able to stack.

Aye, the builds required for each game mode are quite different … best take-away you could get from this

… this has the added bonus of teaching you about more aspects of the class.

I look forward to seeing you continue to learn more. Stick around.

@Sigmoid:
Yes. So if your opponent has +40% duration and you have -40%, they’ll cancel each other out and the condition will last its base duration.

Example: 10 second cripple.
+40% would give it +4 seconds
-40% would give it -4 seconds
10 + 4 – 4 = 10

I don’t think shoutbow is brainless. If you disagree, feel free to play against someone that is a better warrior than you and see who wins. Kagamiku and I played around a bit and he’s a more solid warrior than me. If you fought both of us playing shoutbow, you’d notice a difference … so brains (i.e. skill) are involved.

The getting hit does need to either be baseline or done away with complete … for balancing purposes. Same as Fast Hands.

I think some weapons are currently balanced around absolutely needing that extra adrenaline as they are more prone to being kited so more likely to be adrenaline-starved.

I don’t see any issue with weapon swapping giving adrenaline for the same reason. That weapon swap is a conscious decision with some things involved with it. Even with Fast Hands, it is locked for 5 seconds into that weapon set.

That said, as I’ve said before, Fast Hands should be made baseline (or removed) for the sake of balance as well as either its UP without it or OP with it (or both). Same with swap-sigils and Might on Swap from Discipline.

That said, giving more adrenaline per-hit than adrenaline when-hit could be a viable solution as it would give you more reward for playing well; especially in a game where the point is to not get hit (dodge, block, interrupt, etc.).

Fair enough points. It’s definitely an improvement, I just don’t think it suits my tastes … though I bet if it was implemented someone would eventually talk me into playing around with it … or given more time I eventually just would on my own :-p

I find some funny. Others I look at and think … wow, some thought but not enough …

Example:
At launch:

• Could run through Mesmer Temporal Curtain to stack Swiftness
• Could run through Mesmer Veil to stack stealth
• Sitting in Guardian Staff Symbol only refreshed duration, did not stack it.

After launch

• Can’t run through Mesmer Temporal Curtain to stack Swiftness
• Can’t run through Mesmer Veil to stack Stealth
• Can sit in Guardian Staff Symbol to stack Swiftness

… moved in opposite directions …

I imagine it isn’t hate but oversight. They look to be trying to gain some more consistencies across classes. From a programmer’s perspective, this is good as it means you don’t have a completely separate chunk of code supporting one class’s Signets and another for another class’s Signets and then yet another for a 3rd class’s signets.

I think some things got rushed when the game was released so they didn’t have the opportunity to do this then. On top of that, they have a nice parent company that the rumor-mills say has been pretty tight with the leash, so that can hinder getting around to the code-quality fixes that need to take place … not to mention having X resources and needing Y resources for new things like an entirely new Specialization System, Living Story, bug fixes, expansion, etc.

Programming large projects isn’t as easy as many people seem to assume it is. Managing them is just as big of a challenge.

I agree that it isn’t abuse … but, unless it was ArenaNet’s plan to make everything else weaker, it was an oversight on ArenaNet’s part.

When you can use something twice as much (i.e. +100% more) then there is a large difference in power between that and not. So this often leaves you with one of two scenarios:

• It is balanced around +0% but is OP in comparison with +100%
• It is balanced around +100% but is UP in comparison without +0%

This is how we’ve gotten to the point where Fast Hands should be made baseline (or removed) since it gives +100% weapon swap speed which is a pain in the butt to balance around (as we’ve all seen).

This is the same as gaining adrenaline via Embrace the Pain (currently merged into Cleansing Ire) … you get roughly +100% adrenaline (if not more) from it. How do you balance +0% versus +100% or more?

I’m right there with you Lazze. Wondered this myself for quite some time. There is a lack of consistency that I hope ArenaNet addresses … either with:

• consistency between same mechanics
• compensation for the disparities in the mechanics to balance out those differences

silentknight warrior’s example is spot on.

If you aren’t going to play meta, then find people to play with that don’t request/require it.

Just as you are not obligated to play the way other people want you to …
… other people are not obligated to play with you no matter how you play.

Every class has this sort of issue.

My biggest problems with Emphathic Bond are:

• Invisible 10 second interval … I don’t want to wait 9-10 seconds for some condition(s) to be cleansed. I have no way of knowing if it will be 1 second or 9-10 seconds or somewhere in between.
• It applies the conditions to my pet … there are non-GM traits, a heal, and utilities that do this without screwing over a part of the class. We get a GM trait that screws over our pet. If I don’t have pet swap off cooldown, that could end up being a dead pet which then exacerbates the problem

Your suggestion doesn’t fix this. Now, if you said the pet transferred them to the target … then I’d be a little more interested.

Are you seriously going to complain about Thief getting a melee range daze from a mace stolen from a Guardian?!

How about you talk to Mesmers who have somehow had an ectoplasm stolen from God only knows where that gives the Thief every boon in the game … really high up-time on most of them when traited for the lowest Steal cd. Mesmer doesn’t have ectoplasm at all … nor a way to get every boon in the game, unlike Guardian.

Let’s not nitpick stupid things and focus on more important things like balance.

Sadrien.3470:

Sebrent.3625:

What’s amusing to me is that when the game was still in beta we had these discussions about whether or not a phantasm build should ever shatter. We’ve sort of come full circle.

And this time I think we have a different answer :P

I think that is what most of us are hoping … just need ArenaNet to get the numbers right for Alacrity and/or Persistence of Memory and we’ll be golden.

Honestly, I hope they tweak the numbers so that just having one or the other makes shattering with a Phantasm build the “optimal” choice so that Phantasm builds can:

• Have more options for their builds
• Make taking both give more “leeway” for making errors … useful for helping lower the skill floor for those first learning Mesmer

The second point would also probably raise the skill ceiling as well … faster cooldowns usually does.

Pros:

• Might for pet from AA
• Cripple on target from AA
• AA sticking to a target
• 2 extra evades
• 1 extra mobility maneuver
• Poison

Cons

• Can’t interrupt AA animation to dodge roll … sitting duck for PvP burst for ~0.5 seconds each during the 2nd and 3rd animation.
• Delay on the Hornet Sting … so a delay on both the evade and the movement … seems unnecessary and makes it feel a bit clunky … which is how the AA feels with being uninterruptible (by the Ranger suing it … others can interrupt it, lol).

From my experience it seems:

• People who like to troll tend to lean towards Rogue-like classes. This is why the Thief community is what it is. It has good people, but a higher number of trolls.
• People have this misconception that a Warrior is a big dumb brute so it attracts people who aren’t “thinkers”. It has smart people, but a higher number of “others”.
• Pet classes are a mix. They attract people who like having a companion as well as people who like to solo. The former is generally more social, etc. while the latter usually doesn’t want to be bothered with you … so you see more of these two types of people in the Ranger community.

The other classes are a bit harder to peg in my mind as to me they don’t fit many MMO archetypes as well.

There is currently a thread on the Warrior forum where a guy doesn’t like that he gets flak for not running meta. It is not a Ranger-only issue.

What’s amusing to me is that when the game was still in beta we had these discussions about whether or not a phantasm build should ever shatter. We’ve sort of come full circle.

I’m not miserable on my Ranger. I enjoy beating others with a non-meta class :-p

Please clarify how my posts of that are “proof enough”. Again, an opinion without supporting it in any way. Right now it seems you just dislike that I disagree and request actual logical which you refuse to provide.

Why will anything else besides getting both FH and Warrior’s Sprint cause Discipline to dominate Warrior builds? You still haven’t given why …. yet again.

At this point, after having asked what is probably the 10th time at least in this thread … I can only assume you don’t have any logical reasoning for why you think these things. You just think them.

You’re like an underpants gnome …
Step (1): Steal underpants
Step (2): ????
Step (3): Profit

That Step (2) is the logical reasoning … you have not provided any.

Anyone else bothered by the fact that there is a trait that makes a single skill/mechanic +100% more effective (1 use changes to 2 uses)?

Doesn’t that seem like a balancing issue waiting to happen?

Either it’s likely to be UP without the trait if it’s balanced with it …

… or it’s likely to be OP with the trait if it’s balance without it …

Using terrain depends on the Thief.

If you’re fighting a Sword Thief, terrain is more likely to benefit them more than you since they can LOS you, teleport to you with Infiltrator’s (doesn’t require LOS) and then teleport back to LOSing you again to avoid whatever you try to hit them with.

It gets even worse given how our phantasms get themselves all in a tizzy trying to deal with a target that does this.

Juba, I play multiple classes. That doesn’t make my points any more/less valid.

More important … I provide points. Logical reasons.

If you can’t provide the logical reasons, then I can’t help but assume you have none. It would have taken far less effort at this point to just give those reasons than the run-around you’re trying to give now.

On-topic:

• Thieves are currently a strong counter to the meta Power Shatter Build.
• The meta Power Shatter Build was designed with an organized team in mind for peeling and cleansing.
• Likely don’t have peels and cleanses in PUG matches

It is best to not just copy and paste the meta and instead use a build that (1) you’re comfortable with and (2) is designed for the content you’re doing.

I don’t think Power Shatter Build is designed for playing solo in PUG matches. Doesn’t mean you can’t do it and be successful, but I personally believe it is sub-optimal; as has already been expressed in other ways by other members.

Off-topic:
Gentlemen, put away your e-genitals … we’ve had enough of that sort of ****-waving around these forums lately.

Focus on the actual topic and the facts. Otherwise you’re not just reflecting poorly on yourself but wasting everyone else’s time looking at the thread with new content only to find it’s more ****-waving.

I know it’s summer for those of us in the northern hemisphere, but keep your clothes on and stop waving those around.