Guild Wars 2

entropy.9613:

Verdelet Arconia.6987:

“ALL IS VAIN” should be a pvp title.

Seconded.

In order to get it, you must play 100 matches without ever playing a spirit ranger, condition necro or stunlock warrior

Aberrant.6749:

PU could use some tweaks. Rest of Mesmer is fine.

Agreed. Not all mesmer builds are cheese but PU is.

Xavi.6591:

Herr der Friedhoefe.2490:

No mesmer in his right mind has Moa Morph on the skill bar in WvW. It’s useful against exactly one player, has a long and easy to see wind up that can be interrupted, and a long cool down.

This. It is very rare to see MOA in WvW.

Grenade engineer with perplex runes can destroy a mesmer.

But this is the core of the problem with builds like this. The reason that a grenade engineer can destroy a mesmer (I am taking your word for it as I do not play enginner) is that they are spamming AOE attacks.

This might be an oversimplification of how the game is turning out the way it is, but from what I have seen here is what happened:

At the beginning, we were all running around and playing and learning our respective classes. Life was good. Soon, people realized that there was one mechanic that consistently put people at a distinct advantage over others, invisibility.

For a while, classes that had access to this dominated, especially in WvW roaming. Additionally, one of the classes with access to this mechanic, mesmers, core mechanic is to create clones which clutter the battlefield and if you do not take care of them, can damage you.

So, over time people playing non-invisible classes learned the counter to these types of builds. That counter was spamming AOE. By spamming AOE, you might be able to hit the invisible enemy and for mesmers, could take out the potentially damage dealing phantasms.

Over time, people learned the playstyle “spam aoe” in order to counter these builds that inherently used mechanics that were not fun to play against. Fast forward to the dumbfire patch. Now necros have condition damage that is over the top and have learned to spam AOE. Now, everyone is complaining about AOE spam and condition spam but this was the counter for those builds because conditions would continue to tick even when they were invisible and you increased the chance that you would hit them while invisible by spamming AOE.

Eventually warriors were buffed and were able to spam AOE CC. If you cannot see your target, why not jump around like a kitten spamming CC in an attempt to get down the invisible target.

Everyone complains about builds using AOE spamming techniques. I complain about it too because it sucks to play against. What people forget, though, is that this type of playstyle was necessary for dealing with builds with absurd access to invisibility. Those builds are not fun to fight. Over time, you learn to deal with them but guessing where your target is sucks. It makes the fight one sided and regardless of whether you win or lose, it is not fun.

Now we have a mesmer build that is basically propagating like a cancer in the WvW roaming scene. It is a build that encompasses the features of GW2 that non-trolls despise – condition stacking, passive play through AI, invisibility, cowardly play and a counter that involves spamming AOE. I know that this is fun for the people playing this build and rofl-ing as groups of 3-4 run around spamming AOEs and auto attacks, however for the long term health of the game builds like this should not exist.

That build is the current cancer of WvW. It doesn’t matter if it is powerful or not, it is one of the least fun builds to play against.

As necromancer staff marks are some of the most powerful skills in the game, we have decided that there needs to be more risk for the reward recieved. Moving forward, necromancer marks will have friendly fire and effect both enemies and allies. We will continue to have a 5 player cap however allies take priority over enemies.

:D

Locust Swarm:
Gain swiftness and summon a swarm of locusts that cripple nearby foes. After the skill has completed, the locust visual effect does not go away and the sound continues

Necromancers now spawn with 0 HP. If you like death so much just kittening die.

I also play a full zerker build. It is a high risk build and initially will be frustrating but over time you will begin to learn its limitations and strengths. How is that for a generic description?

Seriously though, it is very fun to play and at least to me does not feel as “spammy” as other builds, unless all you use is life blast.

I have some vids of the berserker build in the link on my sig. Someone also posted a vid with zerker footage within the past couple days which should still be on the first page.

Whatever build you chose, enjoy the power necro!

Part of the problem with warrior:

1. New player buys gw2
2. Reads about PvE online and sees that warrior is the best class
3. As they level up, learn “use 100b, things die”
4. Reinforced by all PvE content
5. Get to 80 and decide “I am good, I want to try PvP”
6. Try to walk up to opponents and 100b but it doesn’t work
7a. (In the past) Decide PvP sucks and quit
7b. (Now) Someone tells them about hambow and they start winning. They continue to play. All is not vain.

tl;dr: because of conditioning in PvE, some warriors expect to win easily in PvP and will quit if they do not so ANet made an easy mode

The only change I want with regards to thieves is for chilled to affect initiative. It is kind if unbelievable to me that a class inherently gains partial immunity to a condition.

I posted about this in the PvP forum a while ago and was basically told (red post ) that they were not planning to do it

It is a troll skill. It’s used by trolls to troll others. My guess is that people who are serious about the class never use it and for the sake of making gw2 an overall more enjoyable game, would rather it be replaced by something more useful that does not include a troll mechanic.

ANet, please Easter egg this into the game somehow

Thanks for putting together the video and posting Always like to see other zerker gameplay!

Keep em coming!

cobracommander.5861:

Pleeeease let’s duel in spvp. This rage quitting must be seen to be seen to be believed!

Signed: a loving necro

Huh?

Bhawb.7408:

Wurtin.2845:

For me, the entire thought of the Necromancer is built around conditions. To see them forcing necros towards power builds is just depressing. I think a lot of this is because the necros were as vocal as any class about the bleed cap. They are just going to make it so conditions are irrelevant.

Conditions =/= condition damage. Don’t need to spec condition damage to be a condition class. Power builds arguably rely on conditions just as much as our “condi” builds.

Bhawb is right. My power necro is useless, especially in wvw, without chill, weakness and vulnerability.

IMO they should split conditions into damage dealing conditions and non damage dealing conditions. They should lower the number of condi cleanses in the game but only have the cleanses apply to damage dealing conditions.

This way specs that use primarily condition damage are less able to “hide” damage dealing conditions under other conditions. Non damage dealing conditions would still be allowed to do their thing. The problem is that damage dealing conditions were so powerful that they are buffing condi immunity and cleanse, not taking into account that this reduces the survivability of the necromancer as well (shorter duration weakness, chill, blind, etc)

Death Magic 5—Reanimator: Increased the cooldown from 15 seconds to 45 seconds.

After reducing the cooldown on reanimator in the December 10th patch, we found that it was too strong and it’s synergy with Protection of the Horde was, frankly, overpowered. We have hotfixed this trait and increased the cooldown in an effort to bring the necromancer back in line with our vision of the class.

Elite concepts:
1. Learn to play
2. Go zerker or go home
3. LF2M – WAR OR GUARD ONLY

Oh, wait…

;)

fett.9573:

Sepreh.5924:

fett.9573:

Sepreh.5924:

I am trying to discuss another option which is simply not to bother with those builds. Don’t fight them. Don’t worsen the problem. Don’t leave the game. Don’t feel it is a requirement to stay with a blob. Don’t fight a build that you do not have fun fighting regardless of the outcome.

You never answered my other question. Do you have fun while restarting? Is it more enjoyable to you than reviving? I would think it takes less time to just die and revive than to restart the game.
Don’t like the build? just sit there and die then. Quicker to rez than to alt f4.

Haha, that makes a lot of sense. Or just /sleep

Do you realize how silly your alt f4 option is yet?

Well I still think it is a viable option (opponent does not get to kill something) but the more I am thinking about it, the more I am liking the idea of /sleep

fett.9573:

Sepreh.5924:

I am trying to discuss another option which is simply not to bother with those builds. Don’t fight them. Don’t worsen the problem. Don’t leave the game. Don’t feel it is a requirement to stay with a blob. Don’t fight a build that you do not have fun fighting regardless of the outcome.

You never answered my other question. Do you have fun while restarting? Is it more enjoyable to you than reviving? I would think it takes less time to just die and revive than to restart the game.
Don’t like the build? just sit there and die then. Quicker to rez than to alt f4.

Haha, that makes a lot of sense. Or just /sleep

Eatpies.6598:

I understand what you are trying to achieve by refusing to fight, however the mechanics that you may perceive as “gimmicky,” are to others legitimate ways of playing the game. Certain builds are designed to be as you say in control of the fight, this helps them stay on the offence and enables them to gain the upper hand if you do not pressure them to take control back. I do not, however see what it is that makes such builds that utilise the perhaps more annoying to counter mechanics not fun to fight.

Sorry that I am picking and choosing what I am responding to in this post but I thought it illustrated a good point.

Eatpies.6598:

I understand what you are trying to achieve by refusing to fight

I just want to make what I am trying to achieve more explicit. Every day I hear people complain about x build or y build that use broken mechanics for the reasons I have previously mentioned. On the one hand we have the problem of the mechanic of the build being un-fun to play against which I have already talked about ad nauseam.

On the other hand and perhaps more importantly are the repercussions of these builds propagating. There are several different options that I have seen people take when this happens:
1. They continue to fight them, learn the counter and over time tend to win against players with less skill and lose against players with more skill. The core mechanic that the opponent build uses still is not fun to play against
2. They say “kitten it, this game is unbalanced” and quit playing altogether
3. They say “kitten it, if everyone else is going to run these broken builds I will too” and the cancer spreads
4. They decide that world vs world should exist solely for zerg battles and stick with blobs of people on the map
5. They continue to fight them, learn the counter or create a build specifically meant to counter them then kill them whenever possible and take pleasure in the fact that they killed someone running a gimmicky, un-fun build

I am trying to discuss another option which is simply not to bother with those builds. Don’t fight them. Don’t worsen the problem. Don’t leave the game. Don’t feel it is a requirement to stay with a blob. Don’t fight a build that you do not have fun fighting regardless of the outcome.

If you are in category (5) which several people in this thread have mentioned, enjoy your time roaming. From what I have observed (again, recognizing that there are biases), many people have ended up in the first 4 categories and I would rather not see that happen.

Thrashbarg.9820:

I didn’t mean to attack your videos, for what they are, there’s nothing wrong with them. They do, however, showcase your playstyle, which I see as un-fun to many of your opponents. I didn’t mean to imply the videos were an attempt to brag about skill. Just pointing out the irony that the opponents in the first few fights on your top video probably didn’t enjoy the fights and didn’t really have much to learn from them other than don’t run around alone or re-spec.

The build isn’t at all unpopular, half the necros I know run it or some close variation. It’s quite good at bursting down unsuspecting foes or people running builds not designed for 1v1/escaping. It has counter-builds, but many of them fall into your un-fun category.

tl;dr Your definition of fun (as with many roamers) is strange to me, and you seem to be advocating many of your own opponents to altf4 when you attack them.

I apologize for misinterpreting the tone of your post and appreciate the clarification and mature conversation

With regards to the point about the power necro build I am running being one of the un-fun builds, I would answer in two parts. First, just like it is my prerogative to alt-f4 when I am playing against a build which is not fun because of the nature of the mechanics involved in its gameplay, it is the prerogative of an enemy to do the same to me.

The second part of my response has to do more with feedback from guild members, forums and TS, however. Although there may be enemies who consider the nature of the mechanics involved in my build’s gameplay to be un-fun, I rarely hear individuals from any of these sources talking about the “broken power necromancer”. Again, this is very likely to have many biases involved, but it seems that there is a reason that thread after thread, forum post after forum post, guild chat after guild chat and TS talk after TS talk, the same broken builds come up over and over again.

Less experienced players refer to them as “OP”. More experienced players refer to them as builds that have counters. But the sentiment remains that they are not fun for the opponent to play against.

Thrashbarg.9820:

Sepreh.5924:

Again, OP and being unfun to fight against are two different things.

I always get a kick out of threads like this by “roamers”. Especially when they have links in their signature to videos of them ganking low ranked bearbow rangers and staff eles while they try to cross the map. I bet your opponents in those vids thought those fights were really fun. They probably saw all the opportunities to learn how to fight a class that can spec glass cannon and still have over 30k HP (5k autoattacks leave so much room for fun counterplay…. yeah….).

Pretty sure you only care about your own “fun” and that means “winning”. Sorry, but I don’t see any evidence to the contrary.

Nice, personal attack against the youtube videos. Didn’t see that one coming but good counter argument. That was my first compilation video and meant to show some of the gameplay of a build that has been less popular in the necromancer community. It was not meant to show an example of “good” play.

Please do not be so dense and continue to equate fun with winning. There is another video on the same page where I fight a warrior and specifically point it out as a fight that was fun. Now, I know that you will say “it was fun because you won” but I did not consider that a win at all because someone from my server jumped in. The warrior was going to kill me. As far as I am concerned it was a loss. And I made many mistakes during that fight and learned from them. The fact of the matter is that fun does not mean winning. It means having a good back and forth fight that does not rely on gimmicky mechanics.

Eatpies.6598:

I still don’t understand your concept of an “unfun” build to fight against. You have said that you don’t simply mean the powerful or hard to counter builds. Is it simply those that make the fight less straightforward?
Take mesmers for an example, you said that the PU condition build is one of the ones falling into the “unfun” category. Is this because of the many target drops and clones to hide behind? Because this is an inherently defensive setup, is it any worse than going up against a bunker guardian?
Shatter mesmers also someone was saying is one of these builds that they refuse to fight. Creating illusions is the core mechanic of the mesmer and does require more attention to deal with. However if all these builds are ones that you will not even engage, what does that leave them with? Phantasm builds are generally pretty boring to play ( at least for me). So that leaves us with lockdown mesmers and I think I know how you would feel about that.
Thus your idea of “unfun” builds has almost completely eliminated an entire class as an opponent due to a dislike of playing against their core mechanic.
I seriously question how you can label certain builds/mechanics as “unfun” and refuse to play against them. The only reason I can see, and I know that you have stated the opposite many times during this thread is that you can’t/find it overly difficult to face these builds

EDIT: I apologise if my post has come across as inflammatory, this was not my intention, I am however quite appalled and shocked by the ideas in this topic.

No need to apologize. I know that many people would be upset and I did not make this topic with the purpose of simply upsetting people.

What I see day in and day out in the forums and in guild chat and on TS is people talking about x build and y build being OP. The more I hear about it and the more I ask people about it, the more it becomes clear that what they are not bothered about is whether a build is “too powerful” (read:op) but instead whether fighting the fight is enjoyable, regardless of the outcome. At first, people may say it is because x or y build is “op”, but when you question them about it and get to the root of what they are saying, it is that the build they are playing against relies on a gimmicky mechanic/mechanics that make the fight “one sided”, in that one side is inherently in control of the fight and the other side can win, sometimes easily, but never with the satisfaction that you get from a skill based win.

Rather than see forum post after forum post about x or y build being “op” when in fact it is just a build that is not fun to fight, I am proposing an alternative here. Just don’t bother to fight them. If they want to run a build that overall lowers the pleasure of playing the game for opponents not playing that build, that is and has been their prerogative. If I or anyone else decides that we will not fight them, that is our prerogative.

fett.9573:

So now that there’s an ICD, are you still going the route of alt f4? What if you run into a hammer stun warrior? Do you oppose the challenge of fighting against players with such builds?
I would think it takes less time to just die and revive than to restart the game. Do you have fun while restarting? Is it more enjoyable to you than reviving?

With regards to alt-f4 with the new ICD on perplexity runes, I have not come across people using them enough to make a determination about whether is is a reasonably fun mechanic to play against. So, right now I would not alt-f4 because I do not know the answer of whether it is an unfun build.

Hammer stun warrior were, for a period of time, overpowered but during that time I did not consider them one of the unfun builds. The reason for this was the counterplay. The counterplay to that build was to dodge the high impact stuns, create distance between yourself and the warrior and kite them while trying to kill them.

The counterplay to, for example, a permastealth build is to spam AOE, ideally AOE that can apply conditions and attack where you guess that your opponent is. That is not a fun way to play and brings down the overall enjoyment of the game for the non-broken build significantly

fett.9573:

You do realize you can run different specs right?
Would you quit if everyone ran plex runes?

No. I would quit if everyone used perplexity runes how they were before the nerf (with no ICD) in builds that allow you to spam multiple interrupts

Artorias.4760:

Sorry I missed the patch notes:

---

Necromancer gets a new escape mechanic:

Mark of Shame Alt-F4 now teleports user to desktop. Unlimited range, cool down is dependent on user’s hardware specification and server’s queue time.

---

Hahaha I like it If I take greater marks, does it become unblockable?

WhiteAndMilky.2514:

I also enjoy taking my builds into combat with people who counter me. I am almost positive that they will defeat me, but I am still going to engage them because it will make me a better player. Not only will I learn my limits vs that build, but it will improve my efficiency vs builds that I already am good at fighting. If you are continually beating a certain build, you may find yourself getting lax and playing sloppy. I am constantly trying to test myself and see what is possible within each of my builds parameters.

When I’m dueling in the arena, if someone beats me, it’s not over. I’ll duel them again, and again, until I can determine if there is a way my build can counter them and their playstyle. Often I see players get defeated and then just stand off to the side and watch or give up. You’re doing it wrong! Fight them until your fingers bleed! Many times people will refuse to re-duel you because you know their tricks now

I dont think that you and I necessarily have completely different playstyles in WvW or duels and appreciate your approach. To be honest, I do the same thing. I try to test the limits of my build whenever possible. I try to fight people who have builds that have counters to my build. Being able to beat someone under these circumstances gives you a sense of mastery of the class/build.

I also agree with fighting someone over and over when I lose in a duel. Sometimes I feel bad that I keep asking them to fight but I try to learn from each encounter and change my strategy to see if the change is more effective. It can be very fun and rewarding.

There are, however, some builds that no matter how much you play against or how much you master strategies to counter them, continue to be fights that are not fun because of the core mechanic of the build. Sure you learn how to effectively defeat them. Sure you can (and do) adjust your strategy in order to try to win. But the fact of the matter is that, win or lose, the fight was not enjoyable.

I really do appreciate your approach and think that -2 or 3 builds that I now refuse to engage with, we have similar approaches to learning the game. I would like to run into you to go back and forth one day….

But if the core mechanic you are using is not enjoyable for me as an opponent, I will likely leave

WhiteAndMilky.2514:

Why are people still complaining about perplexity runes? It has a decent length ICD now. It requires skilled timing to use them to their full potential. I don’t see how this is still an issue.

Sepreh.5924:

I appreciate the feedback and apologize for the ambiguity in my statement regarding perplexity runes. When I mentioned them, I was talking about the pre-nerf version in combination with builds that were able to spam interrupts to stack ungodly amounts of it. There were counters (e.g. dont use skills until it runs out) but it was not fun to play against. I have not had enough fights vs the post-patch version to have an opinion about it.

LHound.8964:

hum…. I honestly can’t understand your decision.
You are basing the definition of fun entirely on your perception. More, you were inciting others to do the same, considering their definition of fun is the same as yours. To me your “kitteny decision” is never justified. It’s anti-game.

I know I am responding to many of your posts and hope you do not think that my antagonism is malignant in nature. I enjoy the back and forth discussion.

While I agree that my perception strongly colors my definition of fun, before getting involved in this discussion I also appreciated that I was observing similar complaints about builds that are not fun to fight against from forums, guild members, server mates on teamspeak, etc. I know that there is some degree of confirmation bias involved but I do not think that it fully negates the perception that many individuals do not enjoy the fights vs particular builds.

Colly.4073:

I used to avoid them like the plague “pardon the pun”

Hahaha, it turns out that plague form is pretty easy to avoid

Just trying to lighten up the overall mood of the thread. I appreciate the pun!

Prysin.8542:

Sepreh.5924:

As a power necro, there is little/no disengage so that is less of an option. I try to alt-f4 as soon as I see that it is an unfun build in order to drive the point home that I am not ragequitting, just refusing to fight

when facing thieves, you can just drop all your marks and wells on your feet and wait for the idiot to hit you. No need to put any effort into fighting those who abuse their mechanics

I agree that there are clear and easy ways to kill certain builds, like the permastealth thief, especially if they are in the hands of less-skilled players, and that over time playing against those builds, you learn these strategies. The point is that the nature of certain specific build’s mechanics are not fun to fight against. Dropping all your marks and wells on your feet and waiting for someone to hit you is not fun counterplay. It is boring, does not require skill and after you learn to do it, does not help you to grow as a player

LHound.8964:

Clearly you didn’t understood what I’ve written. I don’t disagree that there are OP classes and builds. I disagree that doing ALT+F4 to make a point or inciting others to do the same is Ridiculous.

The point, made many times, is not that certain builds of certain classes are overpowered. It is that certain builds of certain classes are inherently not fun to play against, regardless of how inherently powerful or non powerful they are.

LHound.8964:

You can’t expect to fight every class with the same builds (like power Necro) and get the same amount of fun from each fight! Some will be fair, some you will stomp and some you will be stomped. That’s the whole concept of WvW. Odds being always different!

Again, you are equating a fight being fun with that fight having odds in your favor. That is not the point that I am making. The odds can be very much in your favor and the fight can still be unfun based on the mechanics of the build that you are playing against.

LHound.8964:

My point still stands. I find ridiculous to ALT+F4 to make a stand. It’s abuse IMHO should lead to penalties and in the ultimate case to a ban. Like the League of Legends system!

Now, getting back to your main point about the alt-F4 strategy being stupid. I agree that it sucks (the topic is called “a kitteny decision I have made”). If I were playing a class that had disengage, I would see that my opponent is playing one of those unfun builds and just disengage. But, I am not playing a class that has suboptimal disengage so at least for now, alt-F4 is the best option when it comes to refusing to continue to fight.

Cassocaster.4576:

The reason you are roaming is likely the same, your “power necro” probably gets steamrolled in the zerg

Sort of, but not completely. A berserker power build ends up screwing over a zerg (rally bot) so I do not bother to use it in a zerg. I switch to a higher toughness, well based build. The reason that I am roaming is not because my build does not do well in a zerg (I would just switch the build) but instead in order to find smaller fights that require a different type of gameplay. Another question would be “why WvW rather than PvP dueling”. The short answer to that question is that I chose not to roam with food or oil in order to have some small degree of disadvantage with the rationale that this will force me to develop my skills a little more than I would need to otherwise. This is not at all saying that running food or oil is skilless. It is saying that I am doing something in order to force myself to grow as a player.

Cassocaster.4576:

So, in your roaming, as you pick off sentries and caravans, you come across another human. Uh oh….not an NPC, might have a dangerous build and you go for ALT-F4?

I can see where it may seem that this is the case but honestly it is not. I pick off sentries and caravans out of boredom while looking for 1 or 2 people from the enemy server to fight. The whole time I am looking for fights. The whole reason I began roaming was to work on my ability to play this build, work on muscle memory for the weapons/skills, play around with skills and traits, etc. I get excited when I see someone to fight. As soon as it turns out to be one of those unfun builds, however, I leave. It is not saying that the opponents build isn’t fair and it is not saying that those builds cannot be beaten. They can and the more you fight them the more you learn about how to beat them. But it doesnt have to do with winning or losing. It has to do with the nature of the fight being boring, regardless of the outcome.

Cassocaster.4576:

Sometimes you get rolled, sometimes you get tea bagged but the only answer is to port, repair and keep learning. Be the good loser as well as the good winner and in all honesty, happy roaming.

I agree with this 100%. Please do not think that I do not. It has more to do with a fight not being a fun fight rather than getting rolled or rolling. Of course fights where the other player is much better than you or much worse than you and are one sided in that way tend to be less fulfilling than even matchups or matchups with a slighter variation in skill level. But those are not the fights that I am talking about. I am talking about the fights where regardless of the outcome or skill level, the nature of the fight is not fun.

And I wish you happy roaming too. I really do enjoy running into others who enjoy good, fun fights

Cameron.2315:

Find a new game end of discussion

There is no reason for me to do that. I enjoy this game a lot. I do not enjoy playing against a few select builds that use mechanics that are inherently not fun for opponents to play against.

LHound.8964:

Sepreh.5924:

Recently, when I have come up against one of these builds when roaming, I will just alt-F4. I dont care if they get a bag or if I have to run back from spawn.

^ Ridiculous.

If anyone else feels the same, I urge you to just alt-F4 when you come up against these builds.

^Even more ridiculous.

Let’s me put this in a way that i might not get an infraction. L2P!
Just because you get your feelings hurt against certain class builds, do that mean you should ALT+F4 the game? No and Never! Learning to win and Learning to loose are two sides of the same coin and quite needed in this kind of games. kitten happens. Deal with it…

PS: I don’t have any of those “OP class builds” you are referring.

I am not sure how many times I will have to repeat myself.

It does not have to do with having feelings hurt against certain builds. It does not have to do with thinking that a build is OP. It does not have to do with player skill on either end. It has to do with certain builds being inherently un-fun to play against.

If I hated losing that much, I would stick to PvE or move to a different game. I have said this before in this thread and will continue to say it. Playing vs an unfun build does not mean the same thing as playing vs a build you lost to. Some of my most fun fights were fights I ultimately ended up losing. Just last week, I was practicing fighting vs the same dd ele over and over who was clearly skilled – able to dodge all my “set up” skills and interrupt me whenever I was trying to use a high-impact skill/heal. I lost. Over and over. But it was a good fight with a good back and forth and was a fun fight. Neither of us had to use the strategy “spam x” and expect to win. Neither of us reset the fight whenever things were going slightly in the favor of our opponent. We joined a part together eventually and mutually respected each other and the fights. I let him know that he was clearly more skilled than I was (which he appropriately agreed with) and asked for advice about becoming a better player.

During those fights I lost. Over and over. But they were fun because the core mechanics involved did not make the fight one sided. And by one sided, I do not mean one side was overpowered. I mean that one side was the one enjoying the fight while the other was fighting and possibly winning but fighting against a build that used a mechanic/mechanics that do not allow for a good back and forth fight.

Artorias.4760:

Alt-F4 as a protest wow. Personally I see it as completely counter-productive. Your opponent isn’t going to ponder the strength of their build and see you as a crusader of fair play but rather interpret you as a bad who rage quit. Some will be left felling happy that they pushed you over the edge and others sad that you robbed them of a fight but I very much doubt any will consider there build choice.

How they decide to interpret the fact that I quit before fighting them is up to them. If they decide “that player sucks and rage quit”, that is their prerogative. There is not a rage component – it is a decision made at the beginning of the fight as soon as the type of build becomes apparent. It more so has to do with refusing to continue to engage in fights with builds that use mechanics that are not fun to fight against. I will not engage with someone like that when, after fighting many in the past, I know that regardless of the outcome, the experience of the fight will not be enjoyable.

Colly.4073:

Anet left us Mesmer’s with very little options when it came to condition based builds because of whiners like you who come and rage on the forums because they can’t dominate every class.

I am not “raging” because I cannot dominate your build. I am saying that it is an example of a build that is not fun for the opponent to play against.

With regards to Anet leaving you few options, I agree that the heart of the problem is there. But in the meantime, you have to stop ignoring the fact that certain builds just arent fun to fight. Again, it is independent of the skill of the player. Over time, you can tell when someone plays one of those builds well and when someone plays one of those builds poorly. It doesnt have to do with the skill of the player. I am not saying that the player playing that build is “less skilled” or that the build is carrying the player. What I am saying is that those builds use mechanics that are inherently not fun to play against as the opponent.

Tuomas.6284:

I find it funny how as an engineer (the least played class) im taking advantage of game mechanics if I use a rune set which no doubt is strong but if left out I could get amazing defensive benefits (contemplating Lyssa for example). I never abused the perplexity runes so the nerf didn’t affect my gameplay. Yes the runes might make me kill baddies faster with an extra confusion proc but the simple fact is that good players will not get interrupted easily and better players will kill me.

Also if you find kiting, blinds, blocks and conditions gimmicky gameplay then I don’t know what to say thats what I need to do to win i can’t just spam my autoattack and stand in front of you. THis thread is the same as if I argued that necros are lame to fight against because a condi necro can just transfer all conditions with the press of 1 button or a power necro can just shroud and spam autoattack for hard damage while I keep switching between 3 kits and ground target nades. The classes are different and play different and it breaks monotony. I personally enjoy good hard duels despite the profession or build I’m fighting against.

I don’t think using perplexity runes makes a player worse and I don’t think they make me worse. I play pretty much exactly the same way in spvp with runes of the undead and my results are the same. Like I said I dont like fighting condi necros because i’m at an inherent disadvantage but I still try because well.. have to learn some tricks to fighting them and if i roam I fight what comes up against me. All in all I feel that people still complaining about perplexity have just not managed to play around it and still complain about them when there are clearly bigger balance issues. I also feel that many assume that engineers use perplexity because they got some confusion on them when in fact engineers have kit/weapon skills to apply it which is exactly the reason I don’t feel tied down to the perplexity runes and can swap runes at my liking.

I appreciate the feedback and apologize for the ambiguity in my statement regarding perplexity runes. When I mentioned them, I was talking about the pre-nerf version in combination with builds that were able to spam interrupts to stack ungodly amounts of it. There were counters (e.g. dont use skills until it runs out) but it was not fun to play against. I have not had enough fights vs the post-patch version to have an opinion about it.

At no point did I say kiting, blinds, blocks and conditions were gimmicky. I am not sure where you got that from. (Edit: I might see where you got that from. When I said "How many times do you see a thread about how the guardian is grossly overpowered? Or the engineer? ", I was making the point that you do not see those threads in WvW forums because those classes do not have mechanics that are inherently not fun to play against)

I understand your point that people may say that my class/build is not fun to play against. I have been trying to avoid specifically talking about the class that I play on purpose – obviously I have a vested interested in my class and or build and do not want speaking about my particular build to color the discussion, although it probably subconsciously colors any discussion I have about this game. I would tend to agree that certain forms of condition necromancer with high toughness who can stack conditions then fear-lock may be one of those un-fun builds to play against. I would also argue that there is a reason that we do not see multiple 10+ page threads about necromancers who go into death shroud and spam life blast.

I also enjoy good, hard duels. It is refreshing and you learn something from them. The type of fights I am referring to are not good, hard duels. They are duels where a class uses an unfun mechanic and regardless if the result is a win or loss or regardless of how long the fight lasts, the fight was not enjoyable.

Shinoobi.1259:

This is the most mind-numbing yet infuriating post I have encountered on these forums to date.

How can you say, “F**k this, I’m not fighting -that-!” is not rage quitting? You’re showing people that you are at a disadvantage. You seem to be under the illusion that every player is at the same skill level or at a skill level below you and use these builds as a crutch to overcome your l337 superiority complex.

Try thinking on both sides for a moment. Maybe these other players are simply better than you are. Maybe these players enjoy the builds they have chosen to play just as you have chosen to roam on a necromancer, because it is -fun for you-.

If you do not think you are at a disadvantage and have nothing to learn from fighting classes which give you a difficult time, then just quit PvPing all together. You’re done. You mastered your craft of alt-f4ing to avoid stepping in a puddle. You got a little muck on your boot, and now you’re turning to go home instead of going ahead.

In the end, though, I give you a 3/10 for being an unintentional troll.

I do not think that I am an amazing player. I also appreciate that many players will beat me because of skill. I appreciate that skill and try to learn from it.

I lose a lot while roaming. I also win sometimes. But regardless of outcome, there are some builds that rely on mechanics that day in and day out, people complain about. What people playing these builds chose to ignore is that many other players do not have fun fighting them and they are making the game overall less enjoyable.

The easy response is “less enjoyable for you” or “maybe some people think you play an unfun build”. This isn’t necessarily the most accurate way to kitten but look through the forum history. How many times do you see a theead about how the guardian is grossly overpowered? Or the engineer? Now, look for posts complaining about the perma-stealth thief. Or perplexity runes…

Again, I think those complaints are only somewhat founded as I don’t think those builds are op but rather are not fun to play against because the counter is an unsatisfying mechanic, for example spamming aoe.

I see a lot of angry responses to this thread and my guess is that people playing those blatantly broken builds who have had WvW be their playground are upset that some people will refuse to engage on their terms moving forward. Several times in this thread , I have been insulted as a quitter, not only in wvw but potentially in life as well. I agree – choosing to alt-f4 is a slippery slope that I need to stay mindful of. Regardless, I will continue to quit at the beginning of an engagement with builds taking advantage of broken mechanics

spiritus.7983:

Sepreh.5924:

Now while roaming in WvW, I have found myself coming up against two broad categories of opponents. Opponents who are fun to fight and those who use extremely broken mechanics to great effect.

Actualy you are right, I talk with a dev and he told me the world rotate around you. They considering that are only two types of players the one you can kill easy and the ones you cant> ergo brocken mecanics. In the future they will ignore everything else, like hundred of zergs, rest of clases and focus only on what ever you like or dont like. So here is your chance for the next patch, tell us everything else whats wrong for your zerker necro.

Great response man.

This has nothing to do with who I can and can’t beat easily. It has to do with builds that a majority of players do not have fun fighting against. There are certain builds where afterwards, regardless of outcome, you never think "that was a good fight ". There are certain builds where month after month we see forum posts complaining about the same thing. Guess why – a lot of people don’t have fun as the opponent vs them. Some are upset that they lost but the longer you play, the more you learn to counter those builds. But it has nothing to do with being able to counter them. It has nothing to do with winning or losing. It has all to do with not respecting the player who choses to ignore how broken a given mechanic is and for that reason, choosing not to fight them.

Your question was misguided. You asked if I would still alt-f4 out if someone was beating me, even if the unfun builds did not exist.

It has nothing to do with being beat or beating someone else. It has to do with leaving before giving someone running a broken build the satisfaction of fighting

Furiousbeard.7602:

So if those builds didn’t exist, would you still alt-f4 out if someone was beating you?

I hope you continue to run into builds and players you can’t beat. Your donations of bags will be welcomed by all.

Too bad you can’t alt-f4 when competition in real life is too difficult

Ahhhh please read before posting. It had nothing to do with winning or losing. There are times I am smiling as I am getting stomped because I see the kind of skill and timing I was schooled with and learn from it.

The alt-f4 isn’t about winning or losing. It’s about fighting builds that are not enjoyable to fight against

As a side note, at least this thread is fostering lively discussion

I do not think that the obstacles / opponents in PvP settings (or life) exist solely for my entertainment. I do, however, think that there are certain builds that exist that many players do not find it fun to fight. The fact that these builds continue to exist is beyond me.

I am not alt-f4 ing out of anger. I am not alt-f4 ing because I take it personally. I am alt-f4 ing to avoid giving someone playing a troll build the satisfaction of a fight.

elkirin.8534:

It is of course your personal decision to alt F4, whenever you feel a fight is not fun, I do not see it as a cowardly action as this is only a game, I simply see it as something I would not personally do or suggest.

My gut feeling is that you will achieve an increase in “broken builds” once people read that using them leads to alt F4 and forum posts promising to alt F4 when facing those builds.

Haha, I think you are right about that last point. It just speaks to the fact that people hide behind the veil of the internet and become crap crappers (only pseudo-profanity allowed on these forums) when they do not need to be held accountable for what they do.

Again, you are missing the point. Fighting up levels is not fun. Are they op? Nope, just the opposite but that makes the fight unfun. Playing vs certain builds is the same way.

Stop using this misguided logic. Being beaten is not the same thing as not being fun. I have lost many fights that were fun fights. Just like most, I can appreciate losing and learning from it. I have even more recently been recording and reviewing fights, wins and losses, to see what I have done right and wrong and learn from it.

Again, people are selectively reading this then arguing a different point. It is easy to say “this person thinks this build is not fun because he lost” rather than say "maybe there is something inherently wrong about this build that makes it less fun for those fighting against it.

Again, OP and being unfun to fight against are two different things.

WhiteAndMilky.2514:

Sepreh.5924:

It is unbelievable how people attempt to defend blatantly broken builds/runes/mechanics etc

Check this out, it’s like I already responded to your post, in the PAST! Milky the time traveler!

WhiteAndMilky.2514:

Are there builds out there that are possibly too powerful? Yes.

Again, missing the point. Broken doesn’t necessarily mean too powerful. It means something that isn’t working right. Mechanics that make the enjoyment factor of a fight one sided are broken.

It has nothing to do with being over powered or losing. I am going to make up a class. It’s called blob. Blob had one trait. When you hit blob, there is a 50% chance for him to lose all hp and 50% chance for you to lose all hp. You have an even shot to win or lose but it’s just not fun.

That is an extreme, but in the same way, something being broken does not mean it is an “I win” build. It means playing against it is not fun

WhiteAndMilky.2514:

Alt-F4 does nothing. I still get your bag and wxp. In fact, if you alt-F4, you are giving your opponent something better than killing you… they made you quit. They still got everything they would have if you had died (your loot) but now you also have to either stay offline or reconnect, and possibly re-que. That’s way better than a straight up kill. I love it when people [Alt-F4] against me.

There’s a difference between alt-F4 when you are about to be stomped and alt-F4 at almost full health when you run into a build that is not fun to fight. Again, it’s not rage quitting because of a loss. When I stick around, I’d say vs broken builds I’m about a 60-40 loss-win ratio. It is more so not giving someone the satisfaction of fighting someone else with an unfun build.

If your goal is wxp and a bag great for you but I get more pleasure from actually having a good back and forth fight which I cannot get from certain builds so I would rather just take the time to quit and come back

Hey Nemesis. Always enjoy your videos. Just one question: when calculating the amount of total damage condition builds have lost since the dhuumfire patch, you did not take tainted shackles into account. What would the damage comparison look like if you include torment as well?

As a power necro, there is little/no disengage so that is less of an option. I try to alt-f4 as soon as I see that it is an unfun build in order to drive the point home that I am not ragequitting, just refusing to fight