You can remove bunker mesmer from the meta now. It’s gone. Congratulations, goal achieved.
I doubt it. I think mesmer and condi rev have just been brought in line with the rest. I am mesmer main, playing bunker chrono since the first beta week-end, yet I am very happy with those changes.
I hope these will be enough to bring some diversity back, because this is the most stupid and restrictive meta I have ever seen.
I don’t know for stronghold lord, but when I tried precog on Foefire lord, he just nicely walked away from it…
Actually he did that to all my wells (no healing, no blur, no alacrity, no whatever) and when he finally died I almost thought “you deserve it”.
Basically it is still useful to save a mate on point, but the mesmer should stay out of it.
I would be tempted to replace it with well of action, but then I have no stunbreak…
What I meant is that it is not healthy for a class to have 4.5/30s block + 2.5/12s blur + 3/45s blur + 1-4/50s distortion, all of this on shorter CD thanks to alacrity.
Why?
I mean, you state that as if it’s some universal truth, “it’s never healthy …”.
Why?
Shouldn’t classes, by nature of being different in their class, be about some sort of speciality? I mean with Mesmer, conceptually I expected to be ~invincible due to enemies mistaking me for my clones (yeah, didn’t work out) but in return be pretty kitten weak and rely on those for defense.
But in general, why is it bad if a class can get that much defense? Why not use it as a balancing point of the class, align the entire class around it and bake it into most aspects of it?
Because there is a difference between getting defenses and being immune to everything for 50% of the time.
This game is about reaction and timing. You use your defensive skill to avoid/mitigate the most damaging skills. This assumes you pay attention to what is happening.
Core-mesmer was already fairly well equipped in this respect: we have a short CD evade on our most offensive weapon which still does good damage (especially in PvE where the enemy does not avoid it) and an instant cast invulnerability. If more needed, we have teleports, reflects and what not. In PvE, it is not rare that our clones/phantasms actually take the aggro.
So yes, I claim that this is universal truth, perfectly axiomatic: having so much invulnerability uptime is not healthy, and I am happy they nerfed that.
The chrono block nerf was highly needed (this skill was by far the best block of the whole game). But the strongest nerf to bunker chrono is actually the fact that they nerfed condi rev.
Condi rev took a bit hit. That will allow damage classes that were shut down by condi rev to come back = more damage. In particular, DH which can really mess with bunker mesmer may come back.
Rev won’t be able to deny downed cleave = more death. Bunker mesmer was particularly good at rezzing because nobody could cleave
This patch won’t completely fix the stupid power-creeped meta, but I suspect it will be a big step on the right direction.
What I meant is that it is not healthy for a class to have 4.5/30s block + 2.5/12s blur + 3/45s blur + 1-4/50s distortion, all of this on shorter CD thanks to alacrity.
And it is even worse in PvE since in PvP, the enemy may interrupt your block.
This is stupid regardless of the game mode.
And as many mentioned, in the PvE meta of “full damage is the only thing which matters”, this is actually a buff.
I do actually agree in parts with OP. I main mesmer and I am in a full-mesmer guild. Many of us enjoy shatter much more than bunker but have not much choice if we want to win…
But clearly, if damage is too high, sustain too. And not only the sustain of bunker. There is a reason why revenants and scrapper are so strong, and it’s not only their damage: they have crazy high sustain despite using offensive amulets.
Look at rev (main offender here). In condi rev, they use viper’s amulet, which is full glass (0 defensive stats). Yet, they are super hard to take down.
Why don’t I think reapers are OP? Because if you focus them, they die. Why don’t I think DH are OP? Because if you focus them, they die. Why do I think revs are OP? Because if you focus them… then focus them again… and again… then YOU die.
A bunker mesmer that does not die and support while doing no damage is doing its job. A bit too well, but still its job. A revenant that does crazy high damage but also sustains and supports (infuse light on downed? seriously?) is not acceptable.
One thing which I find interesting: take a duel condi rev vs condi reaper. Condi rev uses conditions and survives thanks to blocks (crystal hibernation) and boons (in particular resistance). That sound like a prey for reaper and its condi transfer, unblockable skills and boon corruption. Yet apparently, condi rev destroys reaper…
Fortunately today’s balance patch, while small, will strongly affect the meta. And people will then understand that bunker mesmer was only a small part of the problem. Condi rev was the main problem. Condi rev is probably not dead after this patch, but definitely weakened.
Delete PvP please.
I would rather have it but not have the whole game balanced around a 5v5 conquest mode.
You do realize that if the shield block was OP for PvP, it was also OP for PvE? From what I understood, chrono was considered one of the best tank for raids… now that does sound familiar to someone playing PvP…
Also, one of the thing that makes bunker mesmer so strong is their ability to rez everyone, but this is mostly due to the inability to cleave downed because of infuse light. With this gone, the efficiency of bunker mesmer rez is significantly reduced.
Yeah after adapting my necro builds and generally getting used to the status quo, I don’t view bunker mesmer as much of an issue as I had originally thought. We’ll have to see how it plays out, since I don’t want too many surviability nerfs to gut non-bunker builds.
Necro is a good counter to chrono. Problem is that rev was too much of a counter to necro. Now, the nerf to rev resistance may even things out slightly and allow necros to come back and kill mesmers. Actually they may even kill revenants too. Condi necro and condi rev kinda counter each other, so this may tip the balance.
The big question should be if chronomancer support is too strong in pvp, since even though they are/were the best pointholder the game hath seen, they also have some of the best support, which is making old support builds like guardian completely outclassed, even though guardians have better ally cleanse in comparison.
I think some things are overstated. One of the best things bunker mesmer brought is very fast rez. But this only worked because cleaving was made impossible by revs. With proper cleaving now possible, mesmer rez may not work that well. For comparison, bunker guard used to have that with their elite shout, and this was AOE quickness!
Now I don’t say alacrity or precog are not powerful, but I think by nerfing revenants, mesmer may not look as strong anymore.
For your information:
Mesmer
- Echo of Memory: Block duration reduced from 2.25 to 1.5
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Upcoming-Balance-Changes-Week-of-December-14-2015/
Also quite a few revenant nerfs. Overall good changes I think.
(edited by Silverkey.2078)
I’ve been finding all the complains about the bunker mesmer a bit weird, because people complaining about it never mention the other bunkers in game (ele, engi… that are actually better bunkers since they can also do some actual damage while bunkering), or how the bunkering is there to counter the classes that can kill you within 1 second.
Until I read this, and understood it all:
the class should be disabled until the balance patch comes out,EASy.
This actually express a lot, because it is the real intention of lots of people behind all this whinning. Some people just don’t want the mesmer to be in this game. And this is happening since game lauch: that explains why the mesmer has been in a non-stop nerfing train since launch. Evety time a viable build appears, it get nerfed to oblivion due to whinning. Seems like some people is still afraid of what they don’t understand.
The problem is that tempest or scrapper have actually a better sustain than chrono, except that chrono has a stupidly high near-invulnerability uptime. It has fairly average healing, but you cannot damage it for 50% of the time which is bad design.
On top of that, it has one of the best support possible, especially since no one can die around him without being rezzed near-instantly.
I really think nerfs have higher priority. Everything should be nerfed to the point where the core builds like bunker guard, shatter mesmer, D/P thief, D/D ele etc… are strong enough compared to the elite specs (This will already make warrior viable).
Of course, there are still many things which need buffs: weapons, utilities and traits that have never seen use or have been overnerfed to oblivion.
Then, there are also things which are not just nerfs or buffs. The problem of warrior is that it has lost any niche. Pre-HoT, we had rampage warrior, carried by “rampage” which is bad design, and shoutbow, which I don’t think can reasonably compete with ele/guard for team support. There needs to be something that makes warrior unique.
And outside of warriors, there is the lack of build diversity. After the nerfs to elite specs, we will have classes like mesmers and guardians, who can work as well in offensive (medi-guard/DH, shatter mesmer) and support/bunker (shout guard, well chrono), but we have some which ware still locked into specific roles (thieves, elementalists, etc…). Here again, this is related to the problem of niche: currently, you can already make a bunker/support thief or necro, or a marauder elementalist, but you also know that another profession would do it better. What they did very well with bunker chrono is to create a new type of bunker which supports a team in a totally unique way. It is too strong, but the concept is cool.
So in order:
- nerf elite specs to be competitive with but not overshadow core builds
- create a niche for warrior
- buff bad skills/traits so that you could imagine using each skill/trait in at least one specific context. At the same time (since this is related) make sure all professions can play at least 2 or 3 different roles efficiently, which is partly done by creating a niche on how to play this role differently.
I think unblockable is (or should be) about timing. That is why I don’t think having longer duration makes sense, but being instant does.
I still wish it would be AOE too (i.e. make your allies unblockable).
helseth did it for a few games a few days ago… and stopped :p
We lack sustained damage, so if we don’t go full power and can’t kill someone immediately, we never will…
I tried a duo in PvP, my gf on blood-SR-reaper with GS (zerker ammy), me on chrono trying to maximize quickness uptime and making sure she survives. It was decent, but not necessarily amazing. And fall into pieces whenever we get separated. I was a bit disappointed.
All of this would be a nerf to bunker mesmer, but not a nerf to core mesmer nor a nerf to PvE mesmer.
Rofl. There is no core Mesmer in PvE. There is only Chronomancer which you just nerfed.
While I should have been more explicit, what I meant was:
All of this would be a nerf to bunker chronomancer, but not a nerf to core mesmer nor a nerf to PvE chronomancer.
My changes ensure that the core feature of chrono in PvE (alacrity and quickness) are still good. I reduce only personal alacrity, not shared one, and by making it a boon, you allow boon duration which is often maxed in PvE (and not in PvP, thus allowing proper balance of both game modes).
Elite specs are meant to change the flavor of the classes. The description given above are fairly true for guardian and mesmer, not for DH and chrono.
" chronomancers can share alacrity with allies in limited situations, making them an incredibly powerful ally to have in any party." (HoT website specialization description)
sounds reasonable enough. On the other hand, DH was build to be a more selfish variant of guardian.
Bunker guard would still be a thing if not for the power creep. Chronobunker is fairly weak on the heal support side (hence why tempest is used in the rev+chrono teams). Also its boon generation is low (but it can multiply them fairly well). Bunker guard does that well, but cannot sustain the fight well enough, not to mention that tempest just does it better.
At the end, bunker guard and chronobunker are not competing for the same spot. Bunker guard and tempest are.
You may not be aware of that, but there are chronobunker variants with a fairly high resistance uptime. On my build, I’m not particularly afraid of condis since when I can’t cleanse them, I can neglect them.
I don’t think there is much discussion needed.
What makes mesmer OP now and not before as a bunker is
- 4 1/2 s block on 30s CD
- 3s evade on kitten CD
- massive personal alacrity to reduce these cooldowns as well as the others (blurred frenzy, shatters, heal etc…)
solution:
- The block needs a trim (3.5s block would be more reasonable).
- The evade well either provide distortion instead of blur or a CD increase
- the personal alacrity needs to be reduced and offer more counterplay. Make it a boon (to get counterplay), do a mild reduction of duration to make up for possible boon duration. And remove/reduce personal alacrity (i.e. “improved alacrity” and “flow of time”)
All of this would be a nerf to bunker mesmer, but not a nerf to core mesmer nor a nerf to PvE mesmer. Actually, PvE has better boon duration, distortion is stronger than blur for PvE, and the shorter block would mean phantasm up faster, and PvE rarely shatter so they don’t care about flow of time.
In general, I think damage from shatters should be reduced (but not destroyed) while sustained damage should be increased BY A LOT. This would be a huge improvement in PvE, and this would allow more diversity in PvP. Mesmer still has almost nothing between full burst or full bunker, simply because we have no sustained damage to be a bruiser. Basically if we can’t 100-0 someone, then we can’t kill him. This one-trick poney is boring.
You want to Boonshare Alacrity? What a cunning kitten…
Yes I do. Since I also ask for reduced base duration, this means that maintaining alacrity on allies would be possible but require more investment. Since we have less personal alacrity, then our alacrity generation would be on higher effective CD, so I think things will balance out with
- as much alacrity for allies, but require some effort and does not come as easily as “just spam wells”
- less alacrity for self = less survivability
Also, you can have a max number of stacks like many other boons/condis, so that you can’t stack an infinite amount of alacrity during your continuum split. This would encourage people to use their wells “at the right moment” instead of just spamming.
Finally, the counterplay you offer is a very strong. Corrupting alacrity to chill is a huge counterplay. Revs have good boon hate, thieves would be allowed to steal alacrity, Reaper would be an even stronger counter to bunker chrono etc…
Only positive outcomes as far as I can see for the health of the game.
I don’t think there is much discussion needed.
What makes mesmer OP now and not before as a bunker is
- 4 1/2 s block on 30s CD
- 3s evade on kitten CD
- massive personal alacrity to reduce these cooldowns as well as the others (blurred frenzy, shatters, heal etc…)
solution:
- The block needs a trim (3.5s block would be more reasonable).
- The evade well either provide distortion instead of blur or a CD increase
- the personal alacrity needs to be reduced and offer more counterplay. Make it a boon (to get counterplay), do a mild reduction of duration to make up for possible boon duration. And remove/reduce personal alacrity (i.e. “improved alacrity” and “flow of time”)
All of this would be a nerf to bunker mesmer, but not a nerf to core mesmer nor a nerf to PvE mesmer. Actually, PvE has better boon duration, distortion is stronger than blur for PvE, and the shorter block would mean phantasm up faster, and PvE rarely shatter so they don’t care about flow of time.
In general, I think damage from shatters should be reduced (but not destroyed) while sustained damage should be increased BY A LOT. This would be a huge improvement in PvE, and this would allow more diversity in PvP. Mesmer still has almost nothing between full burst or full bunker, simply because we have no sustained damage to be a bruiser. Basically if we can’t 100-0 someone, then we can’t kill him. This one-trick poney is boring.
People claim bunker mes is more OP because they can’t 1v1 them… That’s stupid. It’s a bunker, it’s not meant to be 1v1. Of course it will stall the game forever. It’s designed for that.
It is clear that condi rev is the most OP thing which has ever been on gw2. Even in tournament, a condi rev sometimes hold 1v2 for quite a while. May I remind you that the viper amulet is as glassy as it can get? Rev is currently the only class in the game which we see running full glass (zerk or viper, while everybody else in on marauder or carrion).
Condi necro and DH would kill a bunker mes “fairly easily” if well played. But those 2 are getting destroyed so bad by condi rev that we don’t see them anymore.
Condi rev has pushed every single class out of the meta, and the only thing left is the build they didn’t destroy: chronobunker.
So yes, chronobunker is too strong, and should not be able to be near-unkillable for 15s regardless of the number of enemies. But if rev were nerfed, you would immediately see reapers, druids, DH and scrappers back, maybe even thieves. And with reaper and DH back, bunker mes would not be that unkillable.
I disagree with the duration increase. With this kind of counterplay skills , timing it right should be important. Overall, I agree that the instant cast is the most important part.
As many have said, I think nerfing rev would already help the mesmer case. Chrono has counters, they are just countered by rev. Actually I have the impression that revs have just pushed everyone else out of the meta, and only chrono survived.
I feel like when a bunker build gets too strong, it does not affect the meta as much as when an offensive build gets too strong.
I actually like the possibilities that chronomancer brings to be more of a support build. It makes PvE more interesting and PvP more varied. With a good tone down of everyone, I think I would enjoy HoT PvP quite a lot.
For rune of durability, as I said, they are built around the same format as rune of the pack. The only problem is that they trade swiftness duration (not that strong) for boon duration (obviously very strong). If they changed durability rune to “regeneration duration”, it would be a huge improvement. Still a strong rune, but not excessively good like right now.
I get often frustrated with bad rotations when I soloq so I did switch to shatter. But now I’m going through leagues duo-queuing and bunker is immediately better.
1 – Chaotic Dampening – Reduced the duration of protection from 5 seconds to 2 or 2 1/2 seconds.
Strongly disagree, and in general I would avoid nerfing core-mesmer traits/skills which have never been OP in the first place. Chaotic dampening is only viable because of the protection. And regardless of how many ethereal field we have, we only have 2 leap finishers, on a 12s CD base. Nothing OP then to get 5s protection since this is not even enough to get perma protection.
2 – All’s Well That Ends Well – Reduced the duration of Alacrity from 2 seconds to 1 second.
3 – Well Of Recall – The amount of alacrity has been reduced from 5 seconds to 2 seconds. The chill duration has been increased from 1 second to 3 seconds. Increase the damage, hard to say how much however. Which means well of recall will be 3 seconds traited if my specific changes go through with the trait All’s Well That Ends Well.
4 – Improved Alacrity – Decrease the duration from 50% to 25%
In general, I would change alacrity from a buff to a boon to allow counterplay. Since it is now affected by boon duration, a slight shave on the duration can make sense, but I am not sure. I don’t think 2s alacrity on well is a big deal. 1s on the other hand makes the trait almost pointless. What is a big deal is alacrity on shatter in my opinion.
5 – “You cannot capture buffs on temple or the orb on spirit watch while under the effects of blur”
obvious change, but in general, the whole orb concept needs a full rebalancing because it creates massive unfairness.
6 – Rune of durability – Increase the cd on the #4 from 20 seconds to 40 seconds. And remove the 125 vitality on the #6 completely.
I somewhat disagree. Rune of durability is simply meant to be the defensive equivalent of rune of the pack. And we know rune of the pack is a strong rune. The only thing which makes this one better is that boon duration is clearly stronger than swiftness.
Let me know what you guys think. Addressing alacrity as a whole is the best way to balance out chrono while not unjustly nerfing other lines.
Globally I think this is the key. Alacrity is really what makes chronomancer an obvious upgrade over core mesmer. There is no build that alacrity does not improve. So getting so much of it just by shattering is over the top in my opinion.
I still think though that the shield block needs a small shave (1.75s instead of 2.25 at least).
DH does not need buffs. It needs nerfs, like almost all elite specs. Maybe it needs less nerfs than the others. Mostly, what I would change is remove almost all the support from the virtues, keep them as stronger but very selfish. Then remove the excessive CC, in particular the unblockable CC. I think otherwise, damage is fine.
This would be a good start to bring DH to the level of core guardian. I think core guardian was one of the most balance profession, and thus should be the reference for how strong a class can be.
I actually wonder if “nothing can save you” is not the ultimate counter to bunker mesmer. Boon corruption, vulnerability and unblockable… sounds good to me
I think in general, reaper should be the best counter to the current meta (condi rev+bunker chrono). They both rely on boons (in particular resistance, stability and protection) and are otherwise weak to condis and definitely damaged by chill.
Sad part is that necro’s survivability is so low that they have to be babysitted during the whole game. I feel like “focus the necro” is even more actual than before, simply because everything else in the meta is near-unkillable.
I thought of this idea too. It’d work if that shout applied the effect to allies as well. As of now it’s an okay skill for sure, but it’s hard to slot it when things like signets, wurm, armor, and rise all take general priority for more general scenarios.
Well I am playing bunker chrono (shame on me I know) with my gf on reaper. And like everybody, we usually have trouble against some comps in particular bunker chrono and condi rev, so I tried to optimize everything to alleviate that problem. Currently, the idea is that I am fully devoted to keeping her alive (how romantic), so she does not use that many defensive tools, but she destroys people for me :p
So far she had 3 signets + corrupt boon, but we will try with NCSY instead of corrupt boon.
I strongly agree with you that group unblockable would have been great, giving a very unique role to reaper, very complementary to the usual boon corruption role. But still, considering the amount of damage reaper can give, this is already a good start.
Myself on chrono, I use a variant including null field, which also helps in the boon hate (while also reducing my condition weakness)
There is not only the trap, there is also the pull (F1) which even goes through evades, and the knockback (traited). And a DH can use more than one trap, even if many tend not to. Chrono does not have that much stability, in general only one stack at a given time. I am not the best player for sure, but I know DH is the profession I fear the most, and it’s not because of the test of faith damage. When there is one DH (or more) in the battle, I feel like a puppet moved around the point against my will.
The spear of justice is unblockable but I’m pretty sure verdict isn’t.
Most dragonhunter a shouldn’t take more than test of faith. How do you expect them to survive against the hordes of mallyrevs without contemplation of purity?
And being able to use deflecting shot with a difficult to keep track passive prock-back only works when the stars align.
I am not 100% sure because I haven’t tried it properly, but I feel like I have been pulled a few times by verdict while I was one blurred frenzy, and maybe even precog. Also Fay seems to say that it is indeed unblockable:
DH daze on trap is unblockable and can be used to break the block stance. Any sort of warding line is unblockable and undodgeable and will break blocking/dodging. Spear of justice is unblockable, and is a 1200 range pull that cannot be blocked or dodged.
Maybe I could try properly tonight…
Would just like to mention: DH is a good counter to chrono bunker thanks to all the unblockable/unavoidable CC which disrupts the defensive rotations. They were pushed off the meta before bunker chrono went it but it may be time to take them out of their closet again.
I’m currently testing MoC + Nothing Can Save You! when I face 2 or more Revenants on the other team. Consume Conditions is by far the best heal in this meta if you don’t go for SoV utility. Shout works surprisingly well against Revenants, Dragonhunters, even Chrono Bunkers.
I actually wonder if “nothing can save you” is not the ultimate counter to bunker mesmer. Boon corruption, vulnerability and unblockable… sounds good to me
I think in general, reaper should be the best counter to the current meta (condi rev+bunker chrono). They both rely on boons (in particular resistance, stability and protection) and are otherwise weak to condis and definitely damaged by chill.
Sad part is that necro’s survivability is so low that they have to be babysitted during the whole game. I feel like “focus the necro” is even more actual than before, simply because everything else in the meta is near-unkillable.
Chrono bunker has counters. For example, I think the mass of unblockable CC of a DH is a massive pain, completely negating our defensive rotations. Problem: DH was pushed out of the meta (by tempests in particular). But they may come back if people realize how strong they are against bunker mesmer. Maybe even without LB (good old medi-guard but with traps and improved virtues).
I think chrono needs nerfs, but so do all elite specs. And the mistake would be to nerf core stuff like many mention (when did blurred frenzy make core mesmer bunker OP?). My suggestions would be:
- shield block to 1.5 or 1.75s. This would make it on par with other block skills
- precog to 60s CD but still a blur (may not be needed)
- alacrity on shatter moved to a major trait. I know many disagreed with that, but the chrono line already has strong minors (F5, walking speed), this one is just over the top.
- alacrity becomes a boon: not necessarily a nerf, since it also means it is affected by boon duration and boonshare. But at least, it allows some counterplay (boonrip).
Overall minor cuts, but should balance things somewhat without destroying anything.
If the chrono has stability, then the DH trap, of which usually only one is taken, won’t be able to interrupt through the block.
There is not only the trap, there is also the pull (F1) which even goes through evades, and the knockback (traited). And a DH can use more than one trap, even if many tend not to. Chrono does not have that much stability, in general only one stack at a given time. I am not the best player for sure, but I know DH is the profession I fear the most, and it’s not because of the test of faith damage. When there is one DH (or more) in the battle, I feel like a puppet moved around the point against my will.
Why is there no skill in playing bunker mes?
I must say first im not best mechanicly and im not counting my self very good player ,just good.
We had match with mirror teams (my mes is bit different than classic bunker mes but its not the point)
So 2xmes ,rev scraper and reaper in each team .
I died once had most resurections,condi clear and some other top stat i dont even remember ,since its not so important.
Any group fight on my node we won,at the end of the match enemy team mesmers pm me that im good .
This is happening in spphire league so im not top notch and my oponents are not.But why is that in esl matches mirror tems get trashed by same comp?
There is still skill needed(or expiriance with class) and you cant exactly have same rotation for ever.
Admitedly less skill than it was before .Playing tempest aura requires much less concentration and team /enemy averness than bunk mes.
I still think that some pro teams are holding back true team comps for finals
Well there is a difference between mechanical skills in the fight (which skill to use when, what skill to dodge, etc…) and skill as a player which also includes map awareness, rotation, communication etc…
The top teams contain both the best mechanical players and the best strategical ones. I don’t think bunker mesmer has a much lower skill cap than the average bunker. I used to play bunker guard, and I honestly feel that it was easy as hell, probably as easy as bunker mesmer (if not easier).
There will still always be a difference between a good and a bad player.
Chrono bunker has counters. For example, I think the mass of unblockable CC of a DH is a massive pain, completely negating our defensive rotations. Problem: DH was pushed out of the meta (by tempests in particular). But they may come back if people realize how strong they are against bunker mesmer. Maybe even without LB (good old medi-guard but with traps and improved virtues).
I think chrono needs nerfs, but so do all elite specs. And the mistake would be to nerf core stuff like many mention (when did blurred frenzy make core mesmer bunker OP?). My suggestions would be:
- shield block to 1.5 or 1.75s. This would make it on par with other block skills
- precog to 60s CD but still a blur (may not be needed)
- alacrity on shatter moved to a major trait. I know many disagreed with that, but the chrono line already has strong minors (F5, walking speed), this one is just over the top.
- alacrity becomes a boon: not necessarily a nerf, since it also means it is affected by boon duration and boonshare. But at least, it allows some counterplay (boonrip).
Overall minor cuts, but should balance things somewhat without destroying anything.
a good, but unorthodox example is a team bringing a daredevil to shut down a viper rev (and yes this can happen, s/d is capable of it) and outrotate the bunker mesmers- all the rev/mes team needs to do is bring a scrapper as their 5th and the daredevil essentially has to leave any engagement with the scrapper because of how lopsided the matchup is. people often say that aurashare tempest is brought against DHs but the reality is that DH is already a really bad choice against both condi rev (can’t clear fast enough) and bunker mes (can’t outrotate, traps are useless thanks to invuln chaining) so the tempest is just there to further completely shut them out. reaper imo is in the same position as DH except it’s a much more balanced spec against things below it in tiering (daredevil can beat it, im pretty sure even beserker can too); it’s just terrible against viper rev and suffers from poor mobility that immediately proves to be a problem against a 2x bunker spec. aurashare tempest (which is going to be running diamond skin) is just there to shut them out even further.
so the issue, as much as it is with both rev/mes, is also with tempest/druid/scrapper as well and we can’t forget this.
DH actually counters chrono pretty hard because of the unblockable (and it seems sometimes even unavoidable) CC. Chrono has only little stability (especially compare to rev) and relies heavily on block/evade for its survivability (the actual sustain is only moderate). So denying the block or the evade with unblockable CC and shocking aura kills a chrono fairly fast.
For condi revenant, I think reaper is an interesting match up. The only problem is that reaper is way too easy to bring down (comparatively to anything else). So it will usually get immediately focus and die not too long after.
I still don’t understand why condi rev are used in the first place. Condi rev is countered
- by condi rev (boonstrip, resistance)
- by bunker mesmer (resistance)
so I don’t understand why people use it instead of power rev… While condi rev does counter power rev even more (lack of condi cleanse) a power rev supported by a bunker mesmer should be a better choice. And it has a hell lot of invuln uptime.
guys i remember the argument which bunker is better , guard, ele or mesmer
tell me what happend from beta till now which make bunker mesmer OP ?
nothing happen imowhat happens is that
1. viper runes
2. blocks and heals (rev shield)
3. heal buff (shiro heal skill)
4. evades
5. thief pushed out the meta compsee what the abjured did against 2 bunker mes – amazing and hope other will follow
thief pressure 1v1 and +1
pressure the mesmer first to force cd and being useless afterwards for few sec.when i playing my bunker mes i shout to my team to target the mesmer. after 1 min when he’s down its a surely win for us
if there are 2 mesmer we try to force split them between points so again facing only 1
and than power rev or thief can decap if the other mes is off point.yes its boring to fight against them like any other bunker build (ele , guard, ranger)
yes they can res faster so take mercy rune with 20% res speed with your guard or ele.anet needs to bring back the thief to be able to pressure again while not being too OP and you will see a shift with the current meta (although i see no wrong thief dominating 1v1 situation at all)
I have been playing ranked with my gf (condi reaper). Often, bunker chrono are not so bad. Unblockable CC, boon corruption and some call target for the rest of the team and he’s out. But I think it is mostly because many currently play it while they don’t know mesmer that well, and also, the support it brings is only really strong in a coordinated team.
Of course, I do play bunker chrono myself, because let’s admit it, this is still currently our best chance of winning in leagues.
Mesmer is amateur at ressing compared to herald though. Yeah, quickness is nice, but even quickness with 10% res speed will fail miserably in the face of reaper/shiro cleave.
On the other hand, heralds have the trait to give your res target infused light, which instantly revives them under hard cleave pressure. It’s a direct hardcounter to the entire concept of cleave.
Yep, which is also why they sync so well together. Chrono for fast rez (counter to quickness-stomp) and rev for infuse light (counter to cleave). Only thing left possibly is a very well-timed elite daredevil…
People should realize that revenant is more broken that chrono. Chronbunker and revenant are almost as tanky… but revenant does not use any defensive stats.
Sad part is reaper would probably be one of the best counter to all of this if it did not die so easily if focused…
I don’t think cele is the problem. The problem is: what else can an elementalist run? Without HP, an ele is dead.
Reduce by half the HP gap between low and high (ele-necro) and then ele will have more diversity.
We all understood that 2 condi rev, 2 chronobunker and one tempest is meta, so much that almost all teams end up with it. This is the least varied meta I’ve personally seen. Before the expansion, all classes were used regularly in tournaments except for ranger (which we still saw from time to time) and except for D/D ele being over the top, all classes seemed to have a place.
So why is that? Are druid, scrapper, reaper and DH weak? Hell no! There are a few reasons.
First rev and chrono have the highest block/evade uptime without decapping
- chrono block+precog+blurred frenzy: 4.5/(30 + 2.25) + 3/45 + 2.5/(12 + 2.5) = 38%
- condi rev: UA+crystal hibernation: 2/(12 + 2) + 3/(25 + 3)=25%
- power rev UA+crystal hibernation + warding rift + infuse light : 2/(12 + 2) + 3/(25 + 3) + 2/(10 + 2) + 3/(30 + 3) = 51%
scrapper comes close but elixir S decaps.
Now if you add alacrity to the mix, the CD can be reduced by up to 40%. This gives an optimal (unrealistic but still)
- chrono : 63%
- condi rev: 42%
- power rev: 85% (aren’t we happy that perma-alacrity is not realistic)
Fun fact: I didn’t count the dodges.
Condi damage?
- chrono: temporal enchanter
- condi rev: pain absorption
for a final near-perma resistance. In case it fails, chrono can still cleanse some condis.
How do you prevent that from happening? Well you CC them. Or do you?
- chronomancer: bountiful disillusionment = stab on shatter
- rev: Unwavering Avoidance + Enhanced Bulwark
so near-perma stability for both
you managed to get someone downed?
- medic’s feedback + quickness
- rev: radiant revival
What is the weakness of this 2 classes? Not much outgoing healing? Well let’s add a tempest “et voilà”.
Now I am not sure this meta will last that long. As a matter of fact, condi rev may not be ideal because its damage is countered by the perma-resistance that chrono can almost bring on its own. And it does not have a high enough invuln uptime.
Now I want to say I’m not here just to QQ. I main chronomancer, and I play the chronobunker build since the first beta week-end. And at the time I already started giving feedback saying that the block uptime is too high (I was rather conservative and recommended as a first step to reduce to 1.75s instead of 2.25), that well of precognition is too good for its cooldown (I think I recommended 1min CD) and that alacrity is too easy to get. Getting F5 is already a strong addition by taking chronomancy. We don’t need on top of that to have alacrity on shatter as a minor.
What I really want is that a-net reconsiders and actually does a balance change before february. Because the meta IS broken. But I would like it to be a good balance. This means:
- nerf what is actually wrong. I’ve seen people complaining about bountiful disillusionment or restorative illusions. Remember that those traits were not OP before, there are still not OP now. What is OP is the absurd amount of invul/block uptime
- nerfing bunker mesmer won’t be enough. Scrapper, druid, reaper and DH are also overly ridiculous. I personally enjoyed the pre-HoT meta. Any meta where the old bunker/medi guard, shatter mesmer, soldier engi, etc… feel weak is probably wrong. A meta where the old D/D ele feel weak is insanely wrong.
Please a-net, reconsider your statement and balance all the elite specs as soon as possible.
Why can’t people understand that the MMR is fine, the problem is the low population. There are not so many ruby players, so it ends up having to take lower divisions players.
No MMR problem: population problem
The only reason why non-elite specs are “obsolete” is because we are a bunch of sheep who like to follow instead of see what counters what. Base condi Necro? Easily meta material able to counter all the “OP” specs. Shout Guard? Easily counters condi spam from Revs, DD Ele? that piece of craziness is still hard to kill. We could counter the meta but we’d rather just complain about it because….. reasons.
They are obsolete because they are obsolete. Shout guard is out without minstrel amulet. Core condi necro is an awful spec. D/D ele is still ok, which is why some people still played it.
Good news: the perma-resistance variant of bunker chrono may counter condi rev.
I just want to mention that ‘More guns than roses’ bunker mesmer is using the resistance variant. Meta incoming?
Well I would not make fun of them like this. They have taken a great risk. They have swapped classes quite significantly, with probably very little experience. They don’t have much to loose, so they are just trying to learn to maintain themselves for the next season.
Just as you said, meta is dictated by forum perception but what you’ve just done right now, is incept the perception of the forum, going full on spew mode on reinforcing and backing up the claims that the rest of the (mostly wrong) community has been saying.
I won’t lie, Bunker Mesmers are hard to kill and they influence matches a lot, their survivability is off the charts and running two of them in team fights can allow you to last incredibly long BUT that does not mean they can’t be out-rotated or beaten, it just means they might need a looking at to give them more of a weakness. Right now their only weakness is Necro because, the necro can hit them in the small window that they are vulnerable, shutting them down semi-completely, even beating them in 1v1s. But from what I’ve seen, many of you teams are unwilling to even try to counter the meta. Most of what I see people do is complain and complain and complain without actually looking at what tools they have. Seriously, all I see all the time is mirror comps upon mirror comps and then you scream bloody murder when you can’t kill the other guy who beat you on the very same comp you were playing. Seriously, you guys need to wake up.
The same with Condi Revs. These guys are far from OP. If the counter to Power Rev is condi, the counter to the current condi rev is burst. And going further than that, the counter to the entire current meta of Double condi Rev and Double mesmer, is a combination of burst and condition damage. A good coordinated spike on a condi Rev will down him in a few seconds. Your retort could be “A coordinated spike would kill anyone in a few seconds” but just to humour you, I will explain why it’s different for Revs. On Viper’s, Revs have low health, low toughness, allowing them to be easily bursted down. Strip their boons, condi burst them and CC them to keep them from casting Resistance and condi will kill them faster than a GW1 necro minion getting blasted by holy damage.
Seriously guys, you switch builds to what’s powerful because you want to win but the funny thing is, the team that played what is currently considered powerful, played it because it countered what was powerful. So guess what you have to do in order to beat them? Oh…. wait…. you’re just going to copy them aren’t you? Never mind, forget I said anything.
I think you are missing many of the points. Personally my main problem with the new meta, is not even how restrictive it is but how unfun it is. Too much CC, too much invulnerabilities, too much damage, too much healing. The fact that they all balance themselves somewhat does not mean the meta is fine.
- First chrono don’t stack well, so saying “the team with most chrono wins” is a lie.
- Second, DH counters chrono bunker, so does rev, and probably reaper. Anything unblockable is a pain for bunker chrono
The truly broken thing IMO about bunker mesmer is that it overcomes the mobility problem that bunkers SHOULD have. Bunkers should be susceptible to good rotations. With portal and blink, a bunker mesmer isn’t.
- bunker mesmers rarely take portal, since it’s a sacrifice of a well. Already blink comes with a high cost.
At the end, bunker chrono is strong but not unbeatable. The main problem is that its sustained comes from blocks/evades. So if you don’t have unblockable CC, then regardless how many enemies, the chrono will survive a minimum amount of time.
Necro is an attrition class, they do not have much burst. But they have one of the (if not the) highest sustained damage of the game.
I think it’s the usual problem with mesmer. Whether power or condi, or sustained damage is bottom low. When I play condi, I usually rely on the pistol phantasm bleeds, which give a nice non-shatter burst (whether in PvE or PvP).