This is a really great analysis. I appreciate all the work you put into this. We recognize the problems that the season 2 matchmaking is causing and are looking into solutions that will provide a good experience and satisfy our goals for the league system.
abolish mmr and just match people randomly within division? Can’t be worse than it is now
They need a combination of S1 and S2 and maybe smarter mmr, as opposed to no mmr.
Why do you need any MMR any way? If you are a strong player you will ascend along with other strong players and eventually settle where your matches will be as close as can be. And on top of it you will do so without tarnishing your prestige because having an even easier climb than you would have had otherwise.
MMR is fun as a statistic to inform you about your team (if you have a regular team) but using it to build soloq teams is problematic.
BTW: Ty for replying here Evan. It is nice to have some feedback from you guys about matters like this.
I’m not a huge fan of the “just throw ‘x number’ of players together” at random ala GW1 FA, JQ or RA. I don’t necessarily want to be teamed with just 4 other ppl that queued at the same time as me so long as they fall in the right pip range.
I got a lot of enjoyment from the 50/50 system because a lot more matches were close and exhilarating The issue with MMR is its simply not smart, nor is it truly “individual.” (If I understand how it presently works)
You’re assuming the pip system alone is not an MMR system. Without the hidden MMR, you will be more likely to find a spot where you get 50/50, but only if they also take the bias out of the pip reward system. No more rebounds, safety walls, and lose 2 pips for 3 game losing streaks.
The hidden system is dual redundant and can only work against the first. Season 1 carried newbs by pairing them with pro players, which held the pro players back. Season 2’s system was just completely divergent based on luck and timing.
Both pips and hidden MMR alone do the same thing. They give you score value when you win or lose. Having 2 systems working at the same time will cause errors and fail to represent actual ranking.
So what’s the solution?
Remove MMR.
go ahead and add me, I’m in pvp lobby most of the time
Lol that’s me standing next to you. I thought your name was hilarious because you were complaining.
I don’t know how many times this has to be repeated with the same evidence until people stop asking for proof. The devs explained how the system works and people are still trying to deny it. Dunning Kruger goes both ways.
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MMR is THE unit of measurement for skill.
It was in season 1 and when they used it in unranked. In season 2, it no longer matches you against players of similar skill. Because of this, it’s no longer a measurement of skill. It’s just a measurement of how well you kicked off- which even that can be biased with bad luck.
If your MMR is below average, you’re going to feel it a lot more when you get closer to diamond because it will pool you in with a large number of tilted individuals. Start grouping up with 3+ player sized parties if you want to keep moving forward. Or group up with someone you know has been getting huge win streaks.
This is happening because your MM rating is somewhat neutral. Most players have been locked in to min/max by now, so you’re fights are all going to be slaughters on one side or the other. This game would be fine if they took MMr out of the equation.
Competition needs to be fun or people will find other things to do. If there were no “safety nets” people would get stomped too hard, see no hope and leave.
If there is no safety net, the player falls a division and continues falling until they match with people of the same skill level and start winning again. However that wouldn’t even be a reality with this MMR locking. They would probably fall all the way back to amber despite previously being ranked in the top 5 percentile.
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the majority of players are not good, as a huge part (and flaw) of human nature they will naturaly seek excuses instead of admitting that they should improve and thus they will agree with anything that allows them to stick with their excuses and cling into any sort of vague proof which makes them think they are not bad
considering all these arguments… i doubt people will manage to get to the facts when the facts are against them
This is true, but…
Just because players can play better doesn’t mean the system isn’t unfair and broken. There can be unwarranted complaints, Dunning Kruger stuff, and all sorts of delusions, but the fundamental is that players are grouped with like MM ratings and matched against random groups. Those ratings are based on win/lose. No matter how bad or delusional people are, this should still logically form an unfair playing field where some bads are moving up and some goods are stuck at the bottom. Even if a terrible player ruins a match, his MMR is so high that the next one will probably give him 4 good players and the enemy team will have 4 bad ones. It will undo his loss and he will snowball towards victory.
There’s a good reason why some people swear by soloq and others swear by 5 man teams…
No MMR, no pip safety nets. This would have been ideal IMO.
That or a system that uses the MMR function from season 1, but has no pip system.
There can’t be both. It’s non-competitive by nature.
All I want is to be where I belong and know where that is. Even if I actually am where I belong, it’s hard to accept it while knowing I was placed there by a system that logically shouldn’t be putting me in the right spot. It’s a simple mathematical contemplation, that if you get stuck on one side, you will snowball in that direction for the rest of your trip. They match only your team based on MMR and the enemy team is a random MMR. It’s completely divergent. To futher jack it up, they left you with the MMR from the last season that was disfigured by all the players taking advantage of lower division players. Of the thousands of competitive games and sports that have ever existed, I’m surprised Anet couldn’t understand this fundamental consequence.
Nobody deserves this misrepresentation. I’m seeing a large number of friends bailing for Black Dessert because honestly, how many times in a row can you mess something up and not expect people to say no more?
They should adopt the pip system to unranked because the process doesn’t reflect ranking at all.
OK, flawed logic aside, 18 loss streaks are the opposite of what this matchmaking system is supposed to create.
Not really. The 50/50 win loss represents your level, but because there are 2 pip rebound rewards and 2 pip win streak rewards, a 50/50 w/r is likely to allow someone to climb above their level. Where you should actually end up is a position where you lose more often than win. If that position is right above a point of no return (the diamond division cross) then you may end up with an extremely low (or zero) win ratio. The matchmaking will never let you fall back to that place where you got low win ratios.
I don’t understand.
Your team has an ele, gaurdian and a thief. If they had played remotely well, they would have carried the team easily.
You guys had access to a lot of condi clear and healing, two classes that can kill necro in less than 3 seconds (even faster if they had focused), and you have a moa that can nullify their emergency DS…
I’m not here to name names or call people out, but I feel like this is worth discussing.
I’ve been playing this game since a few months after launch, have several thousand games played. A few hundred of those being on thief, so I’m very familiar with all the teleports they have.
What I am seeing happening is a large number of thieves using teleport hacks, probably because it hides well considering they already have several teleport skills. Some of them are so blatant that they will used the downed teleport skill 2-3 times in rapid succession. It’s not search and rescue, or necro 4. They are traveling back and forth across the map using a teleport that matches shadowstep but without the graphical flair animation that usually accompanies it (and several times per the standard cooldown period).
I’m wondering if others have been noticing the same thing because I’m seeing it on a daily basis now, and not only limited to thieves.
I noticed this happening on my 2nd account yesterday, and thats even though season start should be over now… and I was waxing about it in another thread… about how many matches it will probably take to re-adjust that guys mmr in ruby then.
So this really is a thing, its not just some crazy idea of players stuck at their limit.
No it doesn’t place anyone “where they belong”. If you want to get where you belong as a team, you can get there with 5 man guild teams, just not as a soloQ.
MMR works (or at least used to work) to balance matchmaking so that matches are fair. In season 1, this worked to make matches generally enjoyable because the level of competition was more likely to match your own. The problem with this was that it’s not competitive and completely contrary to the term “ranking”. Your rank was more likely determined by how many games you played, not how well you played them.
In season 2, they maintained the same system, but disabled comparison between teams. They claimed that matchmaking would be based on tier (points) but that initially we would be matched by our previous MMR (implying MMR would depreciate?) but it never did. The intention for S2 was to disable players with low skill and accelerate players with high skill. The problem however is that by strokes of luck during kickoff, MMR became biased and unrecoverable, regardless of whether you were on the winning or losing side, and locked many good players into an either guaranteed permanent win or loss streak. This is why we have people coming from ranked with 3.0 w/l ratios now having 0.3, and absolute scrublords in diamond after only a few days. These random distributions will inhibit all true competitive play until all players are equally spread out across the tier fields. However, we’re talking hundreds of repeats in the legendary division to achieve that dynamic.
A proper ranking system would have worked in only one of two ways:
1) Rank purely based on MMR where everyone starts at zero. The problem with this is it the reward system has to be changed. You can’t award pips by wins, but instead have to award them through MMR progression. That means no win streaks, loss rebounds, or safety nets. Pips have to represent MMR in a static manor. Another major benefit to this method is that you can constrict pips to a specific range (ending at legendary).
2) Scrap MMR entirely and base all matchmaking on pip tiers alone. The benefit of this method is that not much has to be changed. MMR and pip loss safety nets would have to be cut, including the protection against division demotion.
S1 and S2 attempted to mix both of these at the same time and it doesn’t work. The two reward systems will fight each other as soon as one passes the other, causing heavily biased matchmaking that either inhibits all progression (S1 nullification), or forces full progression in a biased direction (S2 perm win/loss streaks).
Counterpoint: the system is working perfectly and you are placed exactly where you currently belong on the ladder.
Yet anet acknowledge that the system isn’t working.
Do you have a source for that? Ive been looking
I got to Ruby through 5 man parties within the guild. For whatever reason, most of us have burnt MMR from screwing around last season, so running soloQ has given each of us a w/l ratio about 0.1. Yet when we group together, it’s a guaranteed win-streak…
Whoever designed this MMR system had a major brain fart. I hope they remove it, or at least periodically reset the values.
They should remove the MMR from ranked entirely. The factor luck has on progression is dominating skill by a few magnitudes, all for the sake of progressing some (who probably don’t deserve it any more than others) through the system faster. Matchmaking should be based on tier and party size only.
Looks like 2 kinds of people in this thread. Those saying the length is an eyesore that makes them feel uncomfortable, and those that simply like it.
Interestingly, had this weapon been 2x the height of a character instead of 4x to begin with, I don’t think any of these current likers would be making threads about how it’s too small.
The physics, realism and reach don’t matter. The aesthetic appearance of this weapon in it’s standing form is awful, enough for a ton of people asking it to be adjusted. It should be adjusted.
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I get that it looks cool to be bigger, and I agree, but 3x longer than the staff?
I feel like this is overdone. I don’t really look like a reaper as much as I do a giant weapon flopping around. In fact, it has such a long shaft compared to the blade that I don’t even see the blade when it moves, just a dark green fuzz with a trail.
I think a shaft 2X the length of staff with the same size blade would have looked a lot better. Maybe it would feel like I’m actually cutting instead of beating things with a long smokey stick.
Literally my only complaint about the Reaper
I’m having a lot of problems with this too. If I am in a party for 30 minutes, and then become the last person to leave the party, I am locked out for 10 minutes or so. Then when the restriction lifts, I click to join but fail to join and get locked out again.
This system needs to be replaced. It does nothing but further extend the difficulty created by the new LFG system to organize appropriate parties for certain missions. +1 to troll behavior. +10 to my frustration.
I was so excited when this tool arrived. I thought I no longer have to alt tab to check gw2lfg.
But to my disappointment, every group I make or get into fills with very low levels and inappropriate classes, even if my descriptions clearly says 80’s only with experience.
I am 100% for exclusion tools. These individuals who either troll or unknowingly try to get in over their heads are wasting both their time and mine.
Since there are no methods of exclusion, I am left with the only choice to leave the party or vote kick. For adequate party formation, I now have to spend an extra 20-60 minutes of my time dropping over and over again as these low levels (who ignore the requirement messages) continue to flood in. For some reason, this was not as serious of a problem using the old gw2lfg site.
I want to be able to see the level/class of the request and then be able to deny it.
I want to be able to kick people from a group I started.
If this is a problem for anyone then the only thing I have to say to that is grow up. Higher tier games and serious players exclude the less serious because it interferes with good game play. If you want the right to troll, and are granted that right by Anet, I will no longer support this game because I seek a better experience.