… Thieves do offer a lot to a smallish group though. They are the best finishers and revivers in the game. They are very good back line disrupters (as pointed out already). They have ranged and melee flexbility with some nice blast finishers for combo fields and, of course, group stealth is cool.
They are balanced for group play.
They are not balanced on a 1vN scale at all. That should be obvious.
Again every class isn’t supposed to be even in every WvW scenario. That is what sPvP is for. Nobody can really balance thief stealth against an ele bunker tankiness/AoE/utility, guardian group buffs/siege, mesmer portals/haste/clones, etc.
Besides thieves simply are not particularly special even in small groups. As soon as a fight goes 3v3 or higher, AoE becomes king of the DPS. Thieves have near zero control capability, their group stealth is short effecting max 5 and requires players to stand still without attacking for seconds unlike the mesmer mass invis, no group condition management, little significant group buffs, none of the great fields, finishers are good but a warriors are better, almost no utility (stability, fear, portals, infection, mass haste, area control, clones, etc). Even rezzing thieves generally suck in groups because they don’t have the HP or stability to stand in and heal while a group is bombarding the area. They might be able to wait until the fight is over or bring someone up in the back but I will take a warriors rez ability over that any day.
Sure thieves can compliment a utility class like the bunker ele giving it the needed damage bump but other classes can fill that gap while offering more utility. Ultimately thieves are a REALLY good small skirmish class that quickly lose their usefulness in pretty much every other WvW scenario and marred by a significant engine bug and IMO power/crit stacking.
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Yes. List everything that any class can do with enough skill.
Ah, the “everyone just needs skill” argument. It just so happens that those people in the woods hacking at dolyaks are thieves for lore reasons? It’s not that, for example, a random Necro caught in the middle of nowhere by 2 or 3 guys is completely fubared vs a thief who just stabs a deer and runs away?
Its not a skill argument it is a every class is not supposed to be able to do everything debate. Thieves have a function in the larger WvW arena which is to go behind enemy lines, disrupt and survive. Their skills are built around that concept. They excel at that but they are weak in all other aspects of WvW.
Take guardians as a comparison. They are built primarily as group/siege fighters making everyone around them better. Matching a guardian to a thief 1v1 isn’t a fair comparison as one clearly has extra advantages in that arena. However when building a group to fight ask me which one is better…. I’ll take the one that can drop stacks of might on everyone in the group. Also a well built guardian can manage a thief if not out right beat one if they make a mistake despite being primarily a group class. They won’t be able to catch one most likely but that is not their function and every class should not be able to perform the same functions.
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If you truly enjoy the stealth gameplay and want it to stay, you better start thinking creatively about solutions that the majority of the players can agree with. The “nyar-nyar-L2P” comments gets you nowhere other than the biggest nerf hammer that’s already swung twice.
Many people here have focused on what thieves excel at and have current unfair advantages but completely ignore their weaknesses. The class is built to be one of the best 1v1 classes so players should have difficulty tangling with them 1v1. However what they cannot do is portal groups, run with tons of boons, group condition removal, stun/lock aside from an elite, squishy, move with limited combat mobility and do not make a group inherently stronger like so many other classes.
They do need to make adjustments but again I would rather see buffs to rangers, variety of builds for necros, better server balance, soft caps on power/crit (which would actually “fix” the thief IMO) and dozens of other items that effect all players all the time. Besides as has been pointed out before, stealth is a complete non-issue in sPvP when 20k damage doesn’t come in a stealth package
Until the culling patch this topic should just have a giant pin in it. Once culling is addressed, there are probably some lingering thief issues that need to be dealt with but IMO thieves probably won’t even make the top five list of real issues that significantly effect most players in WvW. I seriously doubt this issue ranks above nuisance to most WvW players. I run across an annoying thief or a really dangerous one occasionally but there are dozens of other items I would like fixed/addressed before this.
GC thieves are a problem when you’re fighting someone else..
1v1 they’re less of a problem.
They’re like GC Warriors in that regard, I can stomp a GC Great Sword Warriors kitten in all day long on my Thief or Ranger… and there is nothing he can do about it.
However if i’m fighting someone else, and he runs and jumps me..There is a good chance i’m boned.
A GC thief is always a threat 1v1 when properly built and played. They pick when a fight starts and ends most of the time. Most good ones also run full bloodlust, pop signets, mug, backstab, HS and kill most players outright. They frequently bas-venom them if they resist. Might only be able to do that ever couple minutes but that still makes them really dangerous in 1v1 combatc. GS/Hammer/Rifle GC warriors walk around with 20k+ health deserve respect as well. Sounds like you are one of those “I can beat every build ever imagined” players but most players learn to respect those classes 1v1 quickly when they are played well.
The reason why it’s not an issue in sPvP is because you can’t cap points while stealthed, which leads to poor objective control with a roaming class — not exactly the best combo.
A player cannot cap points in stealth now. The control point doesn’t tick while a player is in stealth and a player cannot damage anything while in stealth.
As to Power/crit stacking, thief damage is not and has never been the problem. Thief damage is fine as is. The problem is stealth granting ridiculous survivability and sustain.
Huh? The biggest complaint on the forums about thieves is they hit like a truck and often cannot be seen when it happens. No class should be able to kill another in 1-2 seconds and certainly while never appearing. Culling addresses part of this but GC thieves stacking bloodlust and popping signets with 6k + mugs and 12k+ stabs is a real problem for a lot of players. This isn’t a problem in sPvP because of the soft caps. I am not saying WvW players should have the same soft cap but no single player should be two or three shotting other similarly geared/leveled players.
This has been said before several times, but stealth is not an issue at all in sPvP. The only reason it is a significant issue in WvW is culling (soon to be removed) and Power/Crit stacking. Put a soft cap on Power/Crit and suddenly super builds that have insane damage out of nowhere no longer exist.
We can all run circles around the stealth issue as the root problem but ultimately stealth is not a problem in sPvP balance so why should it be in WvW? Culling and over-stacked damage are the two items no present in sPvP.
I also believe Anet has access to reams of stats on items such as class DPS, class kills, K/D ratios, etc. I would also guess they check stats like these fairly regularly. The only class they have called out recently were elementalists which IMO in WvW are way more powerful than thieves just not as annoying.
Stealth is also completely unbalanced in every other MMO. Stealth is something that is unbalancable. It gives a HUGE advantage in not only deciding when to fight but also survivability. Go ahead and name one MMO where stealth was balanced, You’ll either find the stealth classes being OP or they are UP because they got their damage nerfed into the ground due to stealth. Putting in stealth was a terrible design decision, the thief should have been based around evasion/mobility.
Actually in sPvP stealth is well balanced and proof that stealth in and of itself isn’t broken. What makes it “broken” in WvW is culling and no soft caps on power/crit damage.
what does stealth duration has to do with culling ?
Duration has nothing to do with it but frequency does. Popping in and out puts them back in the queue and allows them to be culled from the servers transmission list. So a thief that stealths frequently, is more likely to be invisible longer which make CnD REALLY powerful.
If possible thieves need to take priority in the transmission queue so they are culled less frequently. Top end power and crit damage also needs to be scaled back. A lot of people wouldn’t be so upset if they didn’t see 20k+ damage hit in 1-3 seconds from a single target. GC thieves that stack power/crit are probably the biggest complaint here.
While I appreciate the nuances of comparing utility…. the list was posted in the context of ‘Power Ranking’ and ‘what classes are OP’, which seems to me pretty focused on pure ganking.
Take a look at guardians. Solo they are good fighters. In a group they are so much more with group boons, stability, etc. Same can be said for Ele and the group quickness of a mesmer is lethal. Organized groups are powerful because of classes like these. Thieves have none of that utility and during siege are near the bottom in usefulness. They do one thing pretty much and should be expected to roll most other classes in 1v1 because that is their purpose in WvW.
That being said, what utility do necros and rangers bring that is superior to what warriors offer?
Pair a necro with a confusion mesmer and then come talk to me. Necros also melt a variety of guardian builds and fear can be a fight turning ability. Rangers could use some love for sure but they are very good at keeping a constant stream of damage flying from inside a group of players. Played well they are also hard to kill in a group setting, have a couple of great group buffs and one of the best group heals in the game.
At the end of the day, thieves need an adjustment IMO but not a nerf. One already went in on this patch with no CnD on inanimate objects.
Killimandros, thieves are not near the top of WvW OP list. If you can’t beat one thats fine. At least learn the class you are trying to get nerfed or you just sound bitter.
WvW power rankings! you heard it here first!
1. Ele
2. Mes
3. Guard
4. Thief
5. Necro/Eng
6. Ranger
7. WarYour honest opinion is that Warrior is the weakest class in WvW?
Do you actually participate in WvW?
sPvP has artificial limits on crit damage WvW does not have. Also powering up using items like Sigil of Bloodlust doesn’t work either. Players simply do not see massive crits in sPvP like they do in WvW. Comparing the two in general doesn’t work well.
Class/build parity in sPvP is paramount because of the skirmish nature of the fighting. Classes/Builds in WvW have rolls other than skirmishing. How do we balance the utility of a portal against a thief backstab or the siege ability of an ele?
Thieves have abilities which makes large group of players invisible for a long time, due to culling bugs etc and whatnotwhatever.
I believe a thieves hut effects five people and I think when the sixth steps in it stops adding cloak to the first making their hut poor for stacking. Mesmers group invis on the other hand is better as I think it effects 10.
Group stealth is hardly broken though. Portals are far more powerful and the combination of stealth/portal is one of the best defenses a small group has against zergs and built up siege.
If they stand around? There isn’t a class that can get away! The mobility allows you to catch ANYONE that runs, including Eles.
If you are catching a running bunker ele, they are not very good. If you kill a bunker ele outside of initial burst or already wounded, they are also likely not very good. Bunker eles run constant condition removal, healing, perm swiftness and have several fast escape mechanisms (ride the lightning, lighting strike, etc). Only when they screw up, get caught flat footed or after a really protracted fight, are the really vulnerable when played properly.
I’ll give you the point that in a zerg you are not as effective as say a bunker ele, guardian, etc. But that isn’t what they are made for and it isn’t the point. I only used the zerg example to say I wouldn’t take ANY damage, at all, not one point. In short if you’re running a thief in a zerg (imo) you’re doing it wrong.
This is the point most people don’t seem to understand in WvW. Classes have different purposes and are not meant to be equal in 1v1 fights. Half the classes make groups much better whereas the thief contributes very little. The thief won’t even win the total damage by class award and probably isn’t even in the top three as that belongs to AoE classes running in groups.
That said, thieves and most power heavy classes still need an adjustment but not a nerf. Curbing their spike damage is probably a good start. Nobody likes and few believe it is fair to get capped from full health in a second or two from any single attacker.
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Inanimate object?
Like how ele/guardian/thief can block siege weapon?
If thief cannot CnD on inanimate object then ele/guardian/thief should not be able to block siege.
Deal?
I don’t find this to be particularly game breaking but since thieves at one time could reflect balista with their spin, I would say it is a fair trade.
IMO there are two types of thieves that need to be looked at. Stacked glass canon thieves that steal/backstab on tough targets for 12k+ and grief thieves that annoy the hell out everyone (hide in keeps by CnD walls, keep waypoints locked down, destroy canons, pester players, etc).
Power and Crit Dmg should have diminishing returns at some point and this goes for all classes. No single character should be able to dish 20k of damage in 1-3 seconds. As for stealth, every time a thief stealth skill runs out they should hit the stealth cooldown. It still makes them powerful but they would no longer have long periods of stealth. They should also not be able to CnD on an inanimate object.
ANet has a pretty phenomenal uptime on their WvW servers. I would guess it hovers around 99% which is impressive for a recently released MMO. I suggest we all should be happy that we have stable servers and great up time.
The reset always happens on Friday 4 pm PST.
Btw, the 20% discount for bank extension doesn’t impress me much.
I want a larger discount (at least 40-50% discount) for bank extension ^-^
Probably not the reason for the shutdown. The store is an entirely different system that seems to be web based. I doubt they have to take anything offline to update the store unless it is a new item.
What is a “fair fight”?
I think its fair that the server with the best organization and bigger population interested in going in wvw should win.
What are you going to do?
IMO, out manned buffs should bestow bonuses to power, precision, toughness and vit. They should also scale to the population imbalance.
I don’t think servers as a whole enjoy dominating opponents any more than servers like having the entire map swept out from under them. It is particularly problematic when one server has a strong time zone over another. Then it is a back and forth each day with neither time zone getting a good fight from the other. This is further exacerbated by the entire population of a server that simply stops showing up since nobody likes to walk into continual 5 to 1 fights.
Anyone else tired of someone getting their butt kicked by XYZ class then jumping on the forums yelling about OP? There are clearly some adjustments that need to be made but IMO they should be to bring other weaker classes up not tear the existing power builds down.
Yep that is OP and headed toward removal.
The commander can be hit from the ground especially by rangers with the longbow extension trait. The exploit at Wildcreek is really the ability to shimmy up the wall without having to knock down the door or a wall.
6 months is sufficient time these days for an mmo to make these essential improvements, games like swtor didn’t even get that.
Trying to think of an MMO that made successful substantially large scale PvP changes six months in. Maybe I missed one? Most AAA MMOs at this point are trying to figure out if they should go free-to-play right now because of all the problems and player exodus.
The issues that the OP is talking about like better grouping options, culling and progression and reward options should have been in the game when it launched. The games this mode is based on all had progression and reward options and better grouping, and culling is an issue that no game should ever have launched with.
Most of the issues raised here are either minor at best, rehashes from other threads or just looking for something complain about. The OP wrote a post so long it needed a table of contents and contributed nothing significant or new (IMO) to the existing WvWvW issues.
Its pretty said that an overall inferior game like swtor launched with say far better and easier to use grouping and guild options than gw2
Yeah the umtenth thousand game of hutball was GREAT! What guild bonuses did SWToR have that were worth anything? SWToR had really flawed light/dark PvP system and it didn’t even offer anything of significant scale with the exception of Illum which was… a complete disaster. Even though its budget was substantially larger. I love Bioware (especially pre-EA) but SWToR was a hot mess.
You clearly didn’t read my post at all. Not to sound egotistical but your points are pretty ridiculous. “Generals are picked by politics or money”. Dude, this is a game. That invalidates your whole schtick right there.
The commander system works well enough. Players quickly learn the good commanders from the bad ones. Who cares about the rest… because it is a game. My original post was referencing that I have never seen any real world or fantasy system pick generals based on competence.
I don’t need to be told the lore argument of the game’s name again, I even said in the post to spare me it. The game’s name is freakin Guild Wars and the Guild portion of the game shouldn’t suck. There’s nothing else you can say.
I don’t think it sucks. There is always room for improvement but as a recently released MMO it has a decent guild system with guild bonuses. You are the one that put Guild Wars in quotes to try and make a point.
Yes the game isn’t a year old yet, but PvE has seen how many content additions? WvW has seen how many? How many content removals has WvW seen?
Not that many actually. They have only done a handful of major patches to the game so far and the next one is WvW. Strange you are getting exactly what you asked for here and still complaining about updates.
IMO your posts sound more like griping about fairly innocuous issues rather than constructive criticism. Just my opinion though.
1. Commander is an absolute mess
2. The roles/rewards/recognition of Guilds in a game called ‘Guild Wars’ is lacking
3. WvW has devolved into ZvZ (ZergvZerg)
4. The lack of Rewards/Progression/Depth/Consequence
5. The devs, their implementation of and lack of commitment to Wvw
1. Welcome to war. Most generals are picked by politics or money. Few are picked from within the ranks. Besides a good fighter often makes a poor commander. After a week or so, players tend to find the good commanders anyway.
2. “Guild Wars” is from lore and not in game guilds. That said, guilds are rewarded for points which can be spent on upgrades. I am also sure over time the devs will build out this system a lot more.
3. Depends on the tier. T4+ has mob fights but not really zergs. Sometimes population imbalances herd people into those mobs so they can find fights but I get plenty of small skirmish action after leaving T3. Besides a lot of people actually enjoy zerg fights (not me).
4. Not sure what people are looking for here. I get to kill other players and take objectives. I get badges, karma, xp, etc. I think they will improve the system over time though.
5. Game isn’t even close to a year old yet and it shipped with a pretty amazing WvWvW system. Does it have problems, absolutely but they already said they have a big patch in the works and will continue to improve the system.
It can be really hard to kill a thief as they have two get of jail free cards. The first is a teleport and the second is a stealth. It is very likely they are simply teleporting then stealthing while they heal then getting up and walking away. I frequently teleport to a critter and use it to pop me up.
I just hope it isn’t a repeat of this week with Kaineng pushing DB constantly bolstered by Mag raids. I don’t think there was any kind of a formal alliance but Mag mostly avoided FA at least during the hours I play. I haven’t seen Danelon and Golanta sit that long without flipping for a long time.
thieves can back stab one/2 shot a lot of classes lol.
Brittle spike thieves can do a lot of damage but none that I know of can 1 or 2 shot a class. 3 shot on a low hitpoint class sure but a lot has to go right and then they are on a long cooldown. This build is also pretty bleh in group fights.
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