Guild Wars 2

kilim.5093:

What if you change Soul Marks for Speed of Shadows since one can cast marks below players therfore they cant dodge them anyways (if mark placed below someone, he cant dodge it, right?) and if reaper form is often used, Speed of Shadows might be superb.

If i dont have Chilled to the bone yet, what if i use Lich Form or Pleage?

Well in pvp you have all skills already so that’s no problem. You could change soul marks for speed of shadows but I just think its safer to use soul marks.

If you really want the 25% movement speed, you could also change Curses spec to Spite, and use spiteful renewal, chill of death and signets of suffering.
That way you got more condi cleanse and boon removal in exchange for damage and you could change corrupt boon for signet of the locust, as signets will remove boons as well.

Flumek.9043:

Just move on to another subforum already.

What is your problem, really? If you don’t have something valuable to say, don’t say anything. You already sent me some stupid flaming PM’s because of the other thread I made.

I get it, you’re one of those elitist people that thinks everyone not entirely playing meta shouldn’t play Gw2 at all. You kick ppl that don’t have HoT, you kick ppl that don’t have full asc, you kick ppl that aren’t support mesmer.. and a lot more stupid reasons probably. All because you are perfect, and only your “meta” is the correct one, I get it. But it’s really getting old, so how about you just move on.

My reaper with armor and with outfit skin.

Name: Sílk Fox

After the update, I think this build is nice in most cases, using Destroyer’s amulet.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQJAWRnMbCd2gl3AebC0bilgBj6KsFaCRJgAQDIeImEjiA-TJhHgADPBAhDBA4+DAXAAA

I’ll sometimes switch chilling darkness with plague sending.
Any thoughts?

I use staff/gs in pve, and switch staff for scepter/dagger with bosses.

I use a sort of mixed build for PvE, just kept experimenting until I was happy.

I’m about 1/3 condi and 2/3 power using staff/gs. Kept condi at 1k, that’s just about enough for me cause I use the 10% condi dmg to hp trait and it leaves me with 2400 power without buffs or food. So condis deal quite decent dmg and heal me, and my melee skills are good too.

Then I mixed gears to get atleast 1300 toughness, got exactly 50% crit rate and about 168% ferocity, also got 10% expertise.

With this build I can pretty much deal with every situation, solo/group doesn’t matter. Deals good dmg and good survivability. Plus I find staff/gs one of the most fun choices to use. Sometimes I use scepter for bosses you can’t get near and that’s decent dmg too.

Well, I guess it only says something when everyone uses the same settings

I think for DS to come close to RS it needs a lot of rework. First of all it’s just not worth giving up the whole reaper spec for it, even if you don’t use RS. You might still want greatsword.

Right now if you do try to leave out reaper spec and use for example curses/soul reaping/blood magic which should be a nice choice to leave reaper spec for, it just feels like RS would be better even tho your playstyle is completely different.

I would really like to see this happen though, I don’t like the fact that you basically have to use reaper spec no matter what build you use, cause it’s just too good.

1. Definitely needs full dmg and more atk speed. Maybe transfer condis too like the aquatic one.

2. I never really liked this one, except to tele to your target and then fear. I wouldn’t know what to do with this tho.

3. I’d like to see this one be like the aquatic one too, that it would fear targets infront of you or around you, not just one.

4. I think this one should be made a reason to use blood magic for, as a support skill. I think it should give atleast stability so that your heal isn’t interrupted easily, and maybe drawing condis from allis too like the aquatic one.

5. I like this one, except the dmg is too low. Knowing that scepter does a lot better torment dmg, always made me not care about this torment it’s just bad and should be increased.

Reh.5986:

You could lay chill on someone for instant, steady damage. Bleed takes 4 to 6 times more landed attacks to stack up. For those bleeds to be dc bleeds that means using skills that apply chill.

With chill you could just re-apply if they cleansed. Not really rocket science and the instant dps is back. Bleed needs re-stacked if cleansed. Doesn’t matter if chill was slightly easier to cleanse as it had instant ramp up and easy to apply again.

I’m still not getting why this is so hard to see. Feels like people are counting every bleed we apply as a dc bleed.

No not every bleed is from DC, but I think because of the way bleed works you do kind of have to take other bleed effects into account as well.

If a trait such as DC affects bleed and that condition stacks and you’re using more skills that apply bleed, you should look at your overall bleed damage and how you can make it better. Because that’s what it is about when you take several traits, skills, runes, sigils whatever that affect one thing, it’s not about how much damage those chilling skills do compared to before. Chill and bleed have different synergy.
Atleast that’s what I do because I think about why and how I’m gonna use a trait..

Beetamus.6403:

Sun Lian.4075:

Before they needed to cleanse chill+bleed, now just bleed.

The chill effect is still there.. so that’s just not true. Even if they wanted to only cleanse bleed, it’s not like you can choose what condition to remove so that’s irrelevant.
Chill only applied 1 condition before, now it applies 2 so I don’t get why people say it’s easier cleansed, considering that you now basically apply 1 condition extra with all your skills that apply chill, on top of all the other conditions. Which means in a big perspective, your enemy can actually cleanse less conditions in total.

Yes the chill effect is still there, but the damage isn’t. Before if they cleansed one, they are still taking damage from the other. Now, if they cleanse bleed, they aren’t taking damage from chill, therefore nerf.
Don’t get me wrong, in PVE this new change to deathly chill is better as multiple necros can stack more damage, but in PVP this is quite a nerf.

What do you mean “the other”? You didn’t apply as much bleed before as you do now, why doesn’t that matter..

Before they needed to cleanse chill+bleed, now just bleed.

The chill effect is still there.. so that’s just not true. Even if they wanted to only cleanse bleed, it’s not like you can choose what condition to remove so that’s irrelevant.
Chill only applied 1 condition before, now it applies 2 so I don’t get why people say it’s easier cleansed, considering that you now basically apply 1 condition extra with all your skills that apply chill, on top of all the other conditions. Which means in a big perspective, your enemy can actually cleanse less conditions in total.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Sun Lian.4075:

But bleed doesn’t work like chill, it’s a condition where the dmg adds up because it stacks. Which means it has more synergy with any other skills that cause bleed, you can’t leave that out.
That’s why I think you can burst easier now for example.

All condis stack and therefore add up the dmg, even chill. The difference is between stacking in duration and stacking in intensity. And it has less synergy with other bleed skills, not more, because a stack of bleeds can be removed easier than bleed + chill, so a single cleanse has the chance to remove more dmg than before (necro has still plenty of access to cover condis though).
If you have 5 stacks of bleeding for 500 dmg (100 per stack) and add 1x pre nerf chill for 600 dmg you got 1,1k dmg/second, which needed 2 cleanses to be fully removed. Now you get 500 + 100 = 600, which can be removed with 1 cleanse instead. To get the same dps you have to apply ~ 6x more chill than before. Massive nerf, idk how this is something to argue about.

You’re comparing it wrong, okay if you got 5 stacks of bleed plus one pre-nerf chill u got 500 + 600 dmg, makes sense.
But chill did not stack damage, I don’t know why you think even chill adds up damage but really in a setting where conditions are cleansed so much, you basically just re-apply it, it didn’t increase dmg by stacking.

If you assume a bleed build pre-nerf, you would definitely not get as much stacks as you do now, that’s the difference. You can get 20 stacks on people now if you do it right, and I think those extra stacks can make up for the chill dmg loss, that’s just how you should see it.
And whether people cleanse or not before you hit those high ticks of dmg, the extra stacks are still there.

I’m not stupid, of course if you literally compare the bleed effects vs chill considering that bleed has a much lower base dmg and only considering the skills apply chill, then the dmg output is lower.

But bleed doesn’t work like chill, it’s a condition where the dmg adds up because it stacks. Which means it has more synergy with any other skills that cause bleed, you can’t leave that out.
That’s why I think you can burst easier now for example.

Chill didn’t even have synergy with other skills that apply chill, because it only increased the duration not the dmg. And considering that classes can cleanse so much, the duration increase was useless which means you’re basically left with a condition that you just reapply with literally nothing else to it.

Yeah I guess it was a really nice condition dmg vs bleed, if you’re lazy and unable to time your skills.
But bleed can be just as good, if you’re willing to do some effort.

Silberfederling.9302:

A well placed nerf. The implementation of condi dmg felt even more broken with this arround. Oh and just because you can’t face roll the cp any more does by no stretch of the definition mean you are useless. You want useless? Try shout heal frontline warrior after the last 2 years of balancing. Necro is a viable class. It still is a force to be reconed with.

Exactly, with a few minor changes to your build and a bit more effort in timing your conditions, necros are still good.

Tim.6450:

What I actually haven’t heard is from that most people justity the nerf by stating that you just need to combo RS#5 and RS#4 to get a decent return back. But isn’t that in itself a nerf because you have to input more to get the same result? You can’t use that whirl finsiher for something else. What about someone who actually combo’s RS#4 with another field isn’kitten nerf to them because they will not get their return in bleeds back since they didn’t combo the ice field?

True, but that’s not the only combo to apply many stacks of bleed in only 2-3 seconds..

I don’t know what you guys are on about, I’m not trolling lol.
All I know is that when I PvP now, no matter how much cleansing is done etc. I see a pretty constant bleed dmg of around 600, without combo’ing.
That’s just as much dmg as chill would do, and it’s at the same rate, so what are you talking about that it’s harder?

And this is not because I focus my entire build on bleed now, because I don’t. You only have to change a few things to make DC good. You couldn’t do so much bleed before with the same build.

So I really don’t get why you guys call it such a big nerf, the dmg loss from chill is easily gained back.

Bhawb.7408:

I don’t get the point of those pictures. In the first two pictures you show that your build managed to kill someone in unranked. Cool, but totally meaningless balance wise. In the third/fourth you show that you can lose games and get mid-tier scores, but again nothing meaningful balance wise. Those aren’t proof of anything we’re talking about.

I used to win some 1v1s against top players with my MM build (pre a lot of buffs), does that mean my build was super amazing? No, it means I was a decent player with a build focused 100% on 1v1 that happened to win some 1v1s. They still would have mopped the floor with me in actual games (and often did).

Yeah.. I had a feeling you would whine about me losing those games and that it’s unranked, even though you know that has nothing to do with the point, namely that it clearly shows that you’re wrong, you can stack a lot of bleeds and you can turn this change into something good, you just don’t want to see it.
But no big deal, apparently there’s no way of proving that it’s not such as big nerf as you all say it is, unless I was a tournament winner or something, I get it. Sad tho.

Just played a few PvP matches again, you’re telling me this is bad?

https://gyazo.com/9c0d59ebb023bf673b406ee5d20c55bb
https://gyazo.com/6f27f767c4cba0588bf2208bbe6a7fee

I know some of you will just repeat that it’s RS 5+4 and after that you got cooldowns, but see at what moment I do that? Yes, he dies after that because I time it right, and then it’s pretty good and the cooldowns don’t matter then. And no I didn’t only do that to the rev, I even did that to the engi.

And the damage drop? Where is it cause I don’t see it..
First match was obviously not as much pvp as the second but still.

https://gyazo.com/c4072fed0c7e5548bf164c4a4fa01d7b
https://gyazo.com/1a962e3c9a912a11f8be58d14be6cf5d

Dmg drop of 200k just because chill dmg turned to bleed? Mate you are doing something wrong.

Again.. try to work something out. I already did and I really don’t feel a dmg nerf.

Also, have you thought about having 2 necros in a group that now stack more bleed? Since chill didn’t stack, 2 necros now synergize conditions more.

samulihei.1952:

How come every Pro Necro player has changed class? Maybe you are just running suboptimal setup.

Because I imagine those players are like Brokensunday, giving up already after 1 day. It’s sad.

samulihei.1952:

Sun Lian.4075:

samulihei.1952:

Sun Lian.4075:

samulihei.1952:

Sun Lian.4075:

samulihei.1952:

Reh.5986:

Would be interested to figure out how many bleed stacks could actually be maintained through DC only and without needing to combo in shroud. Takes traits, gear and rotation but staff 3 and 5 aren’t the shortest cooldowns. Same with shroud 3, 4 and 5.

Don’t think it’s necessarily that people think we can’t stack bleed. More that to stack any decent amount of bleed through this trait would cost far more than it’s worth.

At some point you stop trying to push the boulder up a hill and just go to the better options. A different traitline or maybe just pick a better condi class.

At least we still have boon corrupt. Scepter 1 stacks all kinds of nastiness these days

This^ The trade off to waist cd’s to stack over 10 bleeds just to see them cleansed is not worth it. In pre nerf we could just reapply the same pressure instantly if chill was cleansed for multiple times until target was out of cleanses. Now you loose all pressure for long period of time when the bleed stacks are cleansed. There are many better suggestions in these forums how DC could have been balanced and this was the bandaid to nerf it.

“Until your target is out of cleansing”. Isn’t that just a cc or timing issue then?

With chill dmg, it didn’t matter cause as you said, you just reapply it when your target cleanses and since chill is fixed damage you don’t get to burst your target even if you did cc and time properly.
Now with bleed, you do have that chance.

Wait what chill wasn’t burst? You gotta be joking. And no it is not a timing issue since cleanses are flying left and right with all eles and druids hopping around. There is no way your " burst bleeds" stay on target for over 3-4s. And what is holding them back to wait for your “burst” ( you mean RS 5+4 of course) to just cleansed them? You can’ burst them with 10+ stacks of bleeds every 8 secs. In pvp the trait is now subpar just like all the reaper GM traits. There is no way around it.

No, chill dmg was definitely not a burst, it just served as extra fixed over time dmg.
And I don’t only mean RS 5 + 4, like I said before blind can also be converted to chill, so bleed.

I don’t get the whole idea of how the bleed dmg output should match that of chill, only by using the same skills that apply chill. Bleed just doesn’t work like chill, so don’t compare it like that.

To first part. No chill was absolutely burst since you got the dmg straight away when you applied the chill without ramp up time. Hitting Chillblains started ticking over 600 straight away with ONE skill. Now you get < 100 dmg from bleed + poison from the same skill. And the duration of the chill is nerfed also. You could keep that chill dmg up consistently with everything else by applying more chills when old ones where cleansed. There is no way you can hold old chill dmg with bleeds in pvp. None. Period.

And if the bleed damage doesn’t match the chill damage from the same setting isn’t that a nerf? You are just stubbornly trying to justify yourself that this wasn’t a nerf but it was.

Edit: And since you insist that bleeds can be stacked so easily with all them blinds and stuff. I collected a list of where it is possible to get chill assuming the same build.
-Chillblains
-Reaper’s Mark
-Death’s charge
-Infusing terror
-Executioner’s Scythe (x4 from field)
-Soul Spiral (all 6 hits from spiral)
-Hydromancy sigil
-Suffer
-Chilled to the Bone

In total=17 stacks! 17 lousy stacks and you’ve burned over half of your CD’s and somehow you’d have to sustain that. So stop with the bs my friend.

Assuming the same build

That’s exactly the problem here, you don’t compare these changes with the same build. You first think and try to make the best out of the changes and then you make your judgement.

When HoT released you changed your build too because reaper looked good, right?
So why would you gladly change your build if something looks good at first sight, and complain without even changing your build if it looks like a nerf. That’s really just whining.

What is this new build that can stack more bleeds? By abandoning Reaper you abandon DC. And if you don’t abandon Reaper a) you need SR and b) Spite doesn’t offer anymore Chill actually less than Curses. So there is actually no way to get more bleeds from DC than running the same build. Midl tweaks may apply but the base is the same. So yeah your argument invalid.

If my argument is invalid, then how come I’m not complaining about the dmg? Apparently I can find a way to make the new DC good too.. why can’t you?

samulihei.1952:

Sun Lian.4075:

samulihei.1952:

Sun Lian.4075:

samulihei.1952:

Reh.5986:

Would be interested to figure out how many bleed stacks could actually be maintained through DC only and without needing to combo in shroud. Takes traits, gear and rotation but staff 3 and 5 aren’t the shortest cooldowns. Same with shroud 3, 4 and 5.

Don’t think it’s necessarily that people think we can’t stack bleed. More that to stack any decent amount of bleed through this trait would cost far more than it’s worth.

At some point you stop trying to push the boulder up a hill and just go to the better options. A different traitline or maybe just pick a better condi class.

At least we still have boon corrupt. Scepter 1 stacks all kinds of nastiness these days

This^ The trade off to waist cd’s to stack over 10 bleeds just to see them cleansed is not worth it. In pre nerf we could just reapply the same pressure instantly if chill was cleansed for multiple times until target was out of cleanses. Now you loose all pressure for long period of time when the bleed stacks are cleansed. There are many better suggestions in these forums how DC could have been balanced and this was the bandaid to nerf it.

“Until your target is out of cleansing”. Isn’t that just a cc or timing issue then?

With chill dmg, it didn’t matter cause as you said, you just reapply it when your target cleanses and since chill is fixed damage you don’t get to burst your target even if you did cc and time properly.
Now with bleed, you do have that chance.

Wait what chill wasn’t burst? You gotta be joking. And no it is not a timing issue since cleanses are flying left and right with all eles and druids hopping around. There is no way your " burst bleeds" stay on target for over 3-4s. And what is holding them back to wait for your “burst” ( you mean RS 5+4 of course) to just cleansed them? You can’ burst them with 10+ stacks of bleeds every 8 secs. In pvp the trait is now subpar just like all the reaper GM traits. There is no way around it.

No, chill dmg was definitely not a burst, it just served as extra fixed over time dmg.
And I don’t only mean RS 5 + 4, like I said before blind can also be converted to chill, so bleed.

I don’t get the whole idea of how the bleed dmg output should match that of chill, only by using the same skills that apply chill. Bleed just doesn’t work like chill, so don’t compare it like that.

To first part. No chill was absolutely burst since you got the dmg straight away when you applied the chill without ramp up time. Hitting Chillblains started ticking over 600 straight away with ONE skill. Now you get < 100 dmg from bleed + poison from the same skill. And the duration of the chill is nerfed also. You could keep that chill dmg up consistently with everything else by applying more chills when old ones where cleansed. There is no way you can hold old chill dmg with bleeds in pvp. None. Period.

And if the bleed damage doesn’t match the chill damage from the same setting isn’t that a nerf? You are just stubbornly trying to justify yourself that this wasn’t a nerf but it was.

Edit: And since you insist that bleeds can be stacked so easily with all them blinds and stuff. I collected a list of where it is possible to get chill assuming the same build.
-Chillblains
-Reaper’s Mark
-Death’s charge
-Infusing terror
-Executioner’s Scythe (x4 from field)
-Soul Spiral (all 6 hits from spiral)
-Hydromancy sigil
-Suffer
-Chilled to the Bone

In total=17 stacks! 17 lousy stacks and you’ve burned over half of your CD’s and somehow you’d have to sustain that. So stop with the bs my friend.

Assuming the same build

That’s exactly the problem here, you don’t compare these changes with the same build. You first think and try to make the best out of the changes and then you make your judgement.

When HoT released you changed your build too because reaper looked good, right?
So why would you gladly change your build if something looks good at first sight, and complain without even changing your build if it looks like a nerf. That’s really just whining.

samulihei.1952:

Sun Lian.4075:

samulihei.1952:

Sun Lian.4075:

samulihei.1952:

Reh.5986:

Would be interested to figure out how many bleed stacks could actually be maintained through DC only and without needing to combo in shroud. Takes traits, gear and rotation but staff 3 and 5 aren’t the shortest cooldowns. Same with shroud 3, 4 and 5.

Don’t think it’s necessarily that people think we can’t stack bleed. More that to stack any decent amount of bleed through this trait would cost far more than it’s worth.

At some point you stop trying to push the boulder up a hill and just go to the better options. A different traitline or maybe just pick a better condi class.

At least we still have boon corrupt. Scepter 1 stacks all kinds of nastiness these days

This^ The trade off to waist cd’s to stack over 10 bleeds just to see them cleansed is not worth it. In pre nerf we could just reapply the same pressure instantly if chill was cleansed for multiple times until target was out of cleanses. Now you loose all pressure for long period of time when the bleed stacks are cleansed. There are many better suggestions in these forums how DC could have been balanced and this was the bandaid to nerf it.

“Until your target is out of cleansing”. Isn’t that just a cc or timing issue then?

With chill dmg, it didn’t matter cause as you said, you just reapply it when your target cleanses and since chill is fixed damage you don’t get to burst your target even if you did cc and time properly.
Now with bleed, you do have that chance.

Wait what chill wasn’t burst? You gotta be joking. And no it is not a timing issue since cleanses are flying left and right with all eles and druids hopping around. There is no way your " burst bleeds" stay on target for over 3-4s. And what is holding them back to wait for your “burst” ( you mean RS 5+4 of course) to just cleansed them? You can’ burst them with 10+ stacks of bleeds every 8 secs. In pvp the trait is now subpar just like all the reaper GM traits. There is no way around it.

No, chill dmg was definitely not a burst, it just served as extra fixed over time dmg.
And I don’t only mean RS 5 + 4, like I said before blind can also be converted to chill, so bleed.

I don’t get the whole idea of how the bleed dmg output should match that of chill, only by using the same skills that apply chill. Bleed just doesn’t work like chill, so don’t compare it like that.

To first part. No chill was absolutely burst since you got the dmg straight away when you applied the chill without ramp up time. Hitting Chillblains started ticking over 600 straight away with ONE skill. Now you get < 100 dmg from bleed + poison from the same skill. And the duration of the chill is nerfed also. You could keep that chill dmg up consistently with everything else by applying more chills when old ones where cleansed. There is no way you can hold old chill dmg with bleeds in pvp. None. Period.

And if the bleed damage doesn’t match the chill damage from the same setting isn’t that a nerf? You are just stubbornly trying to justify yourself that this wasn’t a nerf but it was.

I’m not stubborn, I’m just convinced that there are more ways to work out a build with bleed using DC, compared to the simpe fixed chill dmg.4
Which btw was just as easily cleansed as bleed.. I don’t get why that issue keeps popping up, cleansing is not a bigger problem to bleed than it was to chill. Because in turn, bleed gives you more options than chill.

samulihei.1952:

Sun Lian.4075:

samulihei.1952:

Reh.5986:

Would be interested to figure out how many bleed stacks could actually be maintained through DC only and without needing to combo in shroud. Takes traits, gear and rotation but staff 3 and 5 aren’t the shortest cooldowns. Same with shroud 3, 4 and 5.

Don’t think it’s necessarily that people think we can’t stack bleed. More that to stack any decent amount of bleed through this trait would cost far more than it’s worth.

At some point you stop trying to push the boulder up a hill and just go to the better options. A different traitline or maybe just pick a better condi class.

At least we still have boon corrupt. Scepter 1 stacks all kinds of nastiness these days

This^ The trade off to waist cd’s to stack over 10 bleeds just to see them cleansed is not worth it. In pre nerf we could just reapply the same pressure instantly if chill was cleansed for multiple times until target was out of cleanses. Now you loose all pressure for long period of time when the bleed stacks are cleansed. There are many better suggestions in these forums how DC could have been balanced and this was the bandaid to nerf it.

“Until your target is out of cleansing”. Isn’t that just a cc or timing issue then?

With chill dmg, it didn’t matter cause as you said, you just reapply it when your target cleanses and since chill is fixed damage you don’t get to burst your target even if you did cc and time properly.
Now with bleed, you do have that chance.

Wait what chill wasn’t burst? You gotta be joking. And no it is not a timing issue since cleanses are flying left and right with all eles and druids hopping around. There is no way your " burst bleeds" stay on target for over 3-4s. And what is holding them back to wait for your “burst” ( you mean RS 5+4 of course) to just cleansed them? You can’ burst them with 10+ stacks of bleeds every 8 secs. In pvp the trait is now subpar just like all the reaper GM traits. There is no way around it.

No, chill dmg was definitely not a burst, it just served as extra fixed over time dmg.
And I don’t only mean RS 5 + 4, like I said before blind can also be converted to chill, so bleed.

I don’t get the whole idea of how the bleed dmg output should match that of chill, only by using the same skills that apply chill. Bleed just doesn’t work like chill, so don’t compare it like that.

samulihei.1952:

Reh.5986:

Would be interested to figure out how many bleed stacks could actually be maintained through DC only and without needing to combo in shroud. Takes traits, gear and rotation but staff 3 and 5 aren’t the shortest cooldowns. Same with shroud 3, 4 and 5.

Don’t think it’s necessarily that people think we can’t stack bleed. More that to stack any decent amount of bleed through this trait would cost far more than it’s worth.

At some point you stop trying to push the boulder up a hill and just go to the better options. A different traitline or maybe just pick a better condi class.

At least we still have boon corrupt. Scepter 1 stacks all kinds of nastiness these days

This^ The trade off to waist cd’s to stack over 10 bleeds just to see them cleansed is not worth it. In pre nerf we could just reapply the same pressure instantly if chill was cleansed for multiple times until target was out of cleanses. Now you loose all pressure for long period of time when the bleed stacks are cleansed. There are many better suggestions in these forums how DC could have been balanced and this was the bandaid to nerf it.

“Until your target is out of cleansing”. Isn’t that just a cc or timing issue then?

With chill dmg, it didn’t matter cause as you said, you just reapply it when your target cleanses and since chill is fixed damage you don’t get to burst your target even if you did cc and time properly.
Now with bleed, you do have that chance.

MisterWonka.8796:

First off let me say that I too think that this is a harsh nerf, yet probably in a different way than most.

I have no problem with drawing the damage chill did from elsewhere and be it only Dhuumfire. With the right build I am certain you can deal just as much damage as before, but here is my gripe:

You can’t gain more survivability and handicap your opponent in the same way as before. I am not sure if you were aware, but bleeds don’t slow your opponent, they don’t prolongue their cooldowns and they don’t grant you 10% less damage taken. That’s a huge nerf for Reapers and will – in my opinion – make for base necro backliners as the new go to build and maybe even remove necro from the meta pool.

What do you mean? The chill effect is not gone, even though it doesn’t deal damage it still does everything else. That trait that makes chilled foes deal 10% less damage to you still works as well..

You people that say its unrealistic to stack so many bleeds and that the math is all wrong in real PvP.. I don’t think you actually tried to work out a bleed build with DC.

It’s too easy to just think “bleed needs to be stacked and theres no way it matches to chill damage with all skills that apply chill”. Of course this is true, if you can’t stack bleeds and if you don’t make your bleeds stronger.

But the good thing is you can stack a lot of bleeds, of course you have to change your build a bit but what’s bad about that.. the DC trait now synergizes with different traits, work something out and try it.
Don’t compare chill and bleed damage with the same build, that’s stupid.

Bhawb.7408:

Or they dodge once and that entire combo misses and you’re out two 30s CD skills and then you’ll never hit with 5 chills every 8-16s to keep up the same damage. Even if you play really well and land it, the damage you did in that clip was pitiful, 11 poison and 13 bleed is nothing for 6 seconds of work.

Note that the 5-6 have to all be from chill, any bleeds you do with anything that don’t involve chill are completely irrelevant to the DC change. You’re really stuck on that RS 5->4 combo, but not only is that a really specific and unrealistic combo, after it is done you still need to have 10-12 chills on your kit to sustain the damage until that combo is back up, which you can’t have.

You keep mentioning dodging, but I don’t get why that’s relevant. The chill damage might’ve been higher from start, so it might feel like you have to hit less but chill also lasts shorter which means you had to apply it more to keep the damage up..

People don’t dodge more chill effects than before, and because bleed lasts longer you have to take into account that when you do hit your skills that apply chill and thus bleed, it now makes up for the times when people evade it.

Of course, then you got the whole doomsday scenario where all your bleed stacks are instantly cleansed but as I said before.. there’s really nothing different there than with chill dmg.

And that combo is not the only thing that can apply that amount of stacks, you can also convert blind to chill and I didn’t even use scepter there, it’s really not that hard.
I know scepter skills are not chill and so it doesn’t immediately make sense to count that in, but it kinda does because bleed is simply not that easy as chill, you just had to apply it once and apply it again when duration ends, bleed takes a bit more work to so of course you change your build now and try to keep up as many stacks as possible, cause that’s what it’s about.

How hard do you think it is to stack bleeds?

I already tested in a 1v1 with an engi that knows what he’s doing and he says the same, it’s not really a damage nerf but you just might need a bit different build or skill rotation in order to make sure that you stack enough bleeds.

I get the issue that before the change, chill would instantly do the same dmg output compared to what bleed would do with ~6 stacks, but you can do that in 2 seconds..

Let’s take a timespan of 6 seconds, and only casting 3 skills.
https://gyazo.com/21ed67eff5ed01f05fe7d03fa4576c6f

13 stacks at the end, right? Even if an enemy would remove or evade 5 bleed stacks somewhere during that time, the damage would still be same as chill would be in this case.
My condi dmg is 1355 there, chill would deal almost 3.3k damage in 6 seconds and bleed does 3.8k. With 5 less stacks it would almost be 3.3k as well.

And this is a piece of cake if you time it right.. not just with this combo. Of course it’s harder in 1v1 but PvP in GW2 will always be a team game.
The engi I tried 1v1 with said that with right timing, I could keep up a high amount of stacks like 13 here at the end for approx 2 seconds, which means 6.5k bleed dmg in total while chill would deal 4.4k dmg.
And maybe that won’t happen a lot in real PvP, but it can and will happen and so I think the damage is really not that different.

kakumbien.8047:

Sun Lian.4075:

Bhawb.7408:

I mean sure, in a situation where you had pitiful condition damage and are somehow fighting a complete moron who gets hit ten times by chilling effects and doesn’t remove them, its better.

In any real PvP/WvW situation, its a nerf. Take your head out of your unrealistic theoretical math, which has screwed us over since pre-launch, and realize that no living player, not even the most mentally handicapped Turret Engi, is going to allow you to hit them 5 times with chill every 8-16 seconds, which is what you need to do to match pre-nerf damage. In any PvP situation where this would be a buff, the person you’re playing against is so bad at the game you don’t need any help.

The only time it being not-chill is good is stacking PvE, and even then it should have been high intensity low duration.

This is what I don’t get,

not even the most mentally handicapped Turret Engi, is going to allow you to hit them 5 times with chill every 8-16 seconds, which is what you need to do to match pre-nerf damage.

What does this change have to do with enemies evading your chill effects?
If they evade chill effects, they did that before the change aswell.. so how is it that you now suddenly “need” chill damage to match your previous damage, whatever that may be but apparently it can’t be a lot since people avoid chill effects in your example.
Nobody avoids more chill effects now, there’s nothing different there.

And even so, it’s easy to get atleast 6 stacks of bleed on an enemy, for example with ice field + soul spiral. Because a lot of necro skills hit more than once.

Sun lion , I don’t wanna break your heart but i think you should be new in game or not a core pvp player. Even my 12 years old brother said that “wtf is wrong with devs , that is so huuuuge” when he saw the deathly chill nerf . Nerf was necessary . BUT killing a trait and a condi class ?

Nope.

https://gyazo.com/430369e5cc14c19e9ff9240258f1b005

As a necromancer main, I’m sad to see so many other necromancers that clearly can’t count.
The change to Deahtly Chill is not a nerf at all, infact it’s stronger in most situations and I’ll explain.

First, let’s do a little math.

This was the formula behind chill damage and the bleed formula.
Chill: (0,255 x condi dmg) + 202
Bleed: (0,06 x condi dmg) + 22

This means that with 1000 condition damage, you would do the following damage per second:
Chill: 457
Bleed: 82

Seems pretty crappy right? Looks like a big nerf.
Except that chill damage did not stack, and bleed does stack.

Which means that chill damage in this case would stay fixed at 457 dmg per second.
And with the changes to the Deathly Chill trait, it is a lot easier to stack bleed because applying chill effects did not actually reduce, which is now converted to bleed.
So it would be wise to not compare the damage to 1 bleed stack, but more likely to 10.

And then the damage looks like this:
Chill: (0,255 × 1000) + 202 = 457 per second
Bleed: ((0,06 × 1000) + 22) x 10 = 820 per second

Basically, given the time to stack atleast ~6 bleed effects which is nothing right now, you will deal more condition damage with bleed than you would with chill, especailly in PvE since the important things like bosses have high HP, thus more time to stack.

I hope that settles it, and to the people worrying that bleed is easier cleansed than chill.. I’d really like to know what magic that is because I don’t see how it’s easier to remove bleed effects when you apply just as much chill as before while actually applying more bleed, so more conditions in total.
Plus, chill did not have damage multipliers, only duration increasers. Try Rune of the Krait maybe and you’ll be suprised how much bleed damage you can do in PvP now.

I really like the expansion so far, there’s just one thing that really annoys me sometimes, which is the fact that you need to wait for a group for most of the hero points.

I understand that these are supposed to be more challenging but I feel like you guys overestimated how easy it is to find people that need the same hero point, it just takes too long.
And when you finally get to a hero point cause that’s already challenging for most of them you just want to finish them and move on, it’s really frustrating that you still can’t complete them and basically just have to waste time sitting there until you find people to help you.. that’s just unnecessary.

So I hope you guys will consider making the champions less difficult at some point because I’m afraid it will only get more difficult in the future, right now people are still hyped and spending most of their time in the new maps but that will fade away and later there won’t even be as much people in the new maps as there are now.