Guild Wars 2

Tomiyou.3790:

I don’t think Anet is willing to give Ele stats in the specializations or will ever make a mechanic for it either. It is a very good idea, but one problem I see is having more power than ever. For instance: you use marauder amulet and have 2,2k power and then use fire traitline and suddenly you have 2,7k permanent power which is incredibly strong.

There is an existing precedent with Scrapper traits and with Guardian’s 300 Vitaility trait. Traits can, and in my opinion should, be a great way to look at adjusting base stats on professions.

I think the trick will be to have them tied to less used traits with “stacking” passives that fall off if you’re not in the attunement.

For example, I have a suggestion to add “potentially” 500 Healing Power while attuned to Water, BUT you have to use the Piercing Shards trait and consistently apply Vulnerability while Attuned to Water.

They could easily do things with other Traits:

Power Overwhelming (replaces Pyromancer’s Puissance as Grandmaster)
Gain condition damage based on your Power. Gain 30 Power and 30 Condition damage each time you Burn a foe or use an ability while attuned to Fire (8s, Max 10).

This could grant 300 Power/Condition damage that stacks on top of existing Might stacks, making this trait now a competitive option for non-staff builds, and also converts Power into Condition damage.

Strength of Stone (consider making this a Grandmaster and moving Stoneheart to Master)

Gain condition damage based on your toughness. Gain 30 Condition Damage and 30 Toughness each time you Bleed a foe or are attacked by a foe while in Earth (8s, Max 10).

Soothing Power (Grandmaster)
Gain Healing Power based on your Toughness. Gain 30 Healing Power and 30 Toughness each time you Heal an ally or Remove a condition while attuned to Water (8s, Max 10).

Ferocious Winds (Grand Master, switching places with Bolt to the Heart)
Gain Ferocity based on your Precision. Gain 30 Precision and 30 Ferocity each time you Critically hit or apply Blind or Vulnerability while attuned to Air (8s, Max 10).

Ferocious Winds as a GM would be interesting, since it would:

Allow Bolt to the Heart to be taken with Fresh Air builds again, as well as allowing for Bolt to the Heart, Aeromancer’s Training, and the new Ferocious Winds to be taken together for raw damage builds who wish to stick in air more so than rapidly swap back and forth with Fresh Air.

Id like to direct you all to a suggestion I made that might help some with losing healing power with some amulets:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/elementalist/Piercing-Shards-Trait-Suggestion/first#post5931369

Basically, add a new effect onto Piercing Shards in addition to its current effects:

A stacking 50 Healing Power for 8 seconds (max 10) each time you apply Vulnerability to a foe while Attuned to Water.

This gives a potential 500 additonal Healing Power, which sounds very powerful, but due to the limited duration and requring you to be in Water attunement, it actually requires some play to get the most out of it.

I think this would work very well with some of the new amulet types being added, with Paladin’s in particular as it would add back the missing Healing Power if you play around keeping the vulnerability flowing while in Water.

I’d also find some fun uses with Cleric’s amulet staff build for sure.

With the removal of Celestial, a lot of the “sustain” of the Elementalist/Tempest will be removed, which while I agree is certainly more balanced than the current situation we’re in, will need to be addressed somehow.

We need a way to “have” some healing power in our build without necessarily getting it default from our amulets. We need it to be something that we have to earn rather than being passive and “free.” This is why I propose the following suggestion to add some new functionality to an underused trait:

Piercing Shards:

While attuned to water, your spells deal more damage to vulnerable foes. Vulnerability lasts longer. Gain 50 Healing Power each time you apply Vulnerability to a foe while Attuned to Water. Max stacks 10.

Damage Damage Increase: 20%
Vulnerability Duration Increased: 33%
“*Soothing Fragments*” Increased Healing Power per stack (8s): 50 Healing Power
Maximum Stacks: 10

The duration is just long enough to maintain it if you can consistently land Ice Spike or Shatterstone with Staff and Scepter respectively, or if sustaining your Vapor Blade with Dagger. Alternatively, you could Glyph of Storms Air then swap to Water for very rapid stacks.

This would really change a good portion of “how” Water Attunement is used for healing, as you ideally would want to stack up Vulnerability with the offensive skills before using the Healing skills to get more bang for your buck.

Additionally, this may improve some builds which want to camp Water for supportive reasons.

To me, this is a very health change because it promotes actually staying in Water long enough to use a variety of skills instead of merely flying through Water, blowing cool-downs on the heals, and swapping out. It also lets non-Healing Power amulets have access to more sustain if they work for it.

I think this could go a long way toward “filling the sustain gap” that will be missing once Celestial Amulet is no longer available, and I know on my damage or healing builds, I could definitely find use for this trait.

Coupled with some healthy changes to other Water attunement abilities on Scepter and Focus, I could see this being a very fun trait to work with.

Jekkt.6045:

Profession Skills
Elementalist

• Flamewall
  Duration decreased to 5s from 8s. Cooldown increased to 25s from 20s. Destroys projectiles and applies one might for 7s for each destroyed projectile.

• Ice Shards
  Added 4s of vulnerability per ice shard, resulting in a total of 3 stacks per auto attack.

• Shatterstone
  Increased cooldown from 2s to 25s. Removed vulnerability. Increased radius to 240 from 180. Added 1s of chill per pulse and a 1s stun on the final explosion. Increased damage by ~300%. (currently crits for ~1500 on light golem)

• Freezing Gust
  Chills now aoe around the target, up to 3 targets.

• Lightning Strike
  Added a 0.75s delay before the skill hits its target. Added a visual effect to indicate which target will be hit: a small black cloud will appear over the target. Increased damage by ~250%. (currently crits for ~2000 on light golem)

I love most of your suggestions, but I would tweak the above suggestions a tad:

Flamewall

Duration decreased to 5s from 8s. It now Converts and then Reflects enemy projectiles into burning projectiles that Burns foes for 5 seconds each hit. The pass-through burning effect greatly increased but no longer pulses burning on foes in area, pass-through effect cannot trigger more than once per second. Cooldown increased to 25s from 20s.

This would basically be like an offensive version of Natural Convergence on the Druid’s staff, and would “convert” enemy projectiles into condition dealing projectiles with low power damage (so unlike other Reflects, it would not use the foe’s power damage, just your Condition Damage.)

Ice Shards
Added 5s of vulnerability per ice shard, resulting in a total of 3 stacks per auto attack, which takes 1 full second to cycle. Applies an additional 5s Vulnerability per hit against Chilled foes and its damage is increased by 15% against Chilled foes. Now also a physical projectile so it can be reflected/blocked and use combo fields.

This would make Ice Shards a very powerful Vulnerability stacking tool when combined with a high Chill up-time skill set and would provide good, sustained damage while in Water Attunement with Piercing Shards.

I would also like to see the following added to the Piercing Shards trait which would impact a lot of Water builds with various weapons, but would be particularly helpful for the Scepter with the above changes:

Piercing Shards: While attuned to water, your spells deal more damage to vulnerable foes. Vulnerability lasts longer. Gain 50 Healing Power each time you apply Vulnerability to a foe. Max stacks 10.

Damage Damage Increase: 20%
Vulnerability Duration Increased: 33%
“Piercing Shards” Increased Healing Power per stack (6s): 50 Healing Power
Maximum Stacks: 10

This would allow power builds to utilize their Water attunement even without building for Healing Power in their amulets if they manage to stack some Vulnerability, allowing for a greater variety of builds to utilize water attunement. The new “way to sustain” for non-celestial builds would be to stay in water long enough to build up Vulnerability stacks to then use your healing abilities on yourself or on allies. Would be very potent on “brawlery” builds which incorporate toughness and vitality.

Shatterstone
Increased cooldown from 2s to 10. Removed vulnerability. Increased radius to 240 from 180. Added 1s of chill per pulse and a 1s stun on the final explosion. Increased damage by ~300%. (currently crits for ~1500 on light golem)

10 seconds (6.66 with Trait) is perfectly fine for a ground targeted highly televised skill. These are the types of skills which should require a dodge roll or some defensive to be used if the foe remains in the area, so I don’t think such a high recharge is necessary. Your suggestion would play very well into my changes to the auto attack, as the Chill would help stack Vulnerability faster before the final burst of the “Ice Block” type Stun. This also works well when paired with my change for Freezing Gust:

Freezing Gust
Chills aoe around the target, up to 3 targets, and base damage increased. If primary target is already Chilled, it instead Stuns the target for 1 second and deals additional damage.

This makes Freezing Gust a great combo skill with Scepter or Dagger abilities, and can set up other skills once Chill has already been applied. From range, this also combos well with Signet of Water (which is currently better then Freezing Gust in every way, ironically). Might want to consider giving Comet a SIGNIFCANTLY higher damage scaling, but have it require a longer delay before it hits the foe, which would make it good to combo with Freezing Gust (or Shatterstone!) as a set up for it.

Lightning Strike
Added a 3s delay before the skill hits its target. Added a visual effect to indicate which target will be hit: a small black cloud will appear over the target. Increased damage by ~250%. (currently crits for ~2000 on light golem). This damage is doubled if the target is isolated with no allies in range (minions count as allies).

I think Lightning Strike would be amazing if it was a huge “tell” and a mechanic to play around it. Giving the foe a 3 second window to “find something” to deal with the effect is more than fair, while the Isolation mechanic (similar to Khaziks if you know League of Legends) gives it a neat, new mechanic of encouraging your foes to gather up to reduce the damage if it cannot be evaded in other ways. Way more fair than the current implementation which is instantaneous without any counterplay options.

Eager to hear your thoughts, particularly on the “scepter/focus” Water build potential with the above changes.

Urejt.5648:

Aggrostemma.1703:

“After a dodge roll your next attack is unblockable”

hahahahaa “extremely dangerous” 1 unblockable autoatack

That’s a nice Crystal Hybernation / Echo of Memory / Shield Block you have there … it’d be a shame of someone were to VAULT/ Impact Strike on it

SlimChance.6593:

Josh Davis.6015:

Mysticjedi.6053:

Josh Davis.6015:

Aside from skill adjustments, another way we can adjust balance in PvP is by looking at the runes/sigils/amulets that are available for use through the customization panel.

I would be interested in hearing thoughts (with the high-level goals from the blog in-mind) on adding/removing various sigils/amulets/runes. In general, our goal for PvP is to be faster-paced with a higher-level of lethality than what we’re seeing in S1.

I know we’ve had this conversation a few times before, but it’s always important to have this discussion with the correct context in mind.

It would be nice to be able to customize our amulets instead of being stuck with static amulets. This would open more possibilities for players to make more unique builds. Allow for the amulets to be either 3 stat or 4 stat combos.

More variety in stat combos can definitely be a thing – but I don’t think manual stat allocation is in the cards currently.

How about restricting sPvP amulets only to 3 & 4 stat combo’s? Now, your forcing players to “give up” something. Instead of allowing certain professions to strength across the board.

This will help “diversity” in sPvP builds without affecting the rest of the game (PvE, WvW.)

I honestly think this is the way forward.

Additionally, I still think the over-abundance of Boons in PVP is a serious issue which has several potential solutions:

I for one would LOVE to see the base duration of Boons lowered by 25%, but the effectiveness of “Concentration” doubled, and many more stat amulet types added in with varying levels of Concentration.

This would allow for “full on boon builds” to have to invest in it from a stat angle, but they would potentially have access to significantly longer boons than are currently possible, while lowering every other non-boon invested builds to be reduced in effectiveness.

Similarly, I’d love to see a base healing reduction on many healing skills with higher ratios for healing power scaling.

If these were made possible, along with an assortment of amulets to support them, we could see a increase in build variety.

Josh, what is your opinion on the current state of Boons, Healing Power, and Concentration in PvP?

I had a cool idea I thought of recently for the Water Scepter get something a bit unique:

Change the Piercing Shards trait to in the water line to also grant 50 Healing Power for 6 seconds each time you apply Vulnerability, capping at 10 stacks.

Move the vulnerability stacking to the Water Scepter’s Ice Shards auto attack, applying 3 Vulnerability per use for 8 seconds. Increase the damage, but make them slightly easier to avoid against non-movement impaired foes, somewhat similar to the Scepter for Guardian but still a good bit faster.

Change Shatter Stone to no longer apply Vulnerability, and to instead apply a very brief Chill on the initial cast and a longer Chill and higher damage on the detonation if the target remains in range. Makes this a competitively good damage option to give Water builds some bite.

Lastly, for Water Trident, lower the base healing significantly, but also significantly improve the Healing Power scaling and add a Knock Down effect for 1 second, maybe even consider adding in a “partial revive %” for Downed allies so it can be used to interrupt stomps and partially help get a downed ally up.

This would allow scepter to provide a “supportive healing option” for the other off-hands and would pair well with Tempest’s Overload and Wash The Pain Away, but only after the Elementalist/Tempest has used the auto attacks enough to build up the healing power stacks.

I’m still a huge proponent of a lot of the Elementalist/Tempest healing options getting lower base values and better heal scaling, and this would be an interesting way to go about it for some builds. It would also allow “Glassy” Maurader builds to have a reason to try to use some of the Water Scepter abilities in situations where they want to offer a bit of healing support to an ally or sustain themselves slightly better if they commit to Water attunement for a bit to build the stacks.

Anyone able to confirm if this is a bug or intended behavior?

I simply hope for one thing and one thing only, in not just the elementalist’s adjustments but with every profession in the game:

A review of, and potentially change, to abilities that are entirely underwhelming and useless, or weapons that really dont fit their theme.

Here is a list to name a few:

Scepter: On the whole, they really should consider changing all of the auto attacks to be used without a target. This is increasingly important with the advent of the action camera, as it makes the “hit scan but target required” only abilities like Fire and Air Scepter’s auto attacks clunky without a target with action came on. I’d love for every Attunement on scepter to have viable power ratios AND condition damage options, since the elementalist does NOT have the luxury of a large selections of weapons, Scepter needs to simultanously work well for power and condi builds, or hybrid builds, in every attunement.

Fire: Flamestrike – The visual is non-existent, it doesn’t feel powerful enough for its animation that the character uses, and it also has no counter-play from the opponent since it is simply a hit-scan on use. What if this caused an area under the foe to glow, and then erupt in a tiny, brief pillar of flame that burns them and as well as other foes near the targeted foe, but could be avoided if they leave the area? This would make all of Scepter-Fire based around ground “targeted-ish” type effects in which the goal is to punish stationary foes and clumped foes. The other abilties are iconic and functional and fit with a “dodge this or pay” type theme, they just need some tuning on their delays.

Earth: The auto is mostly fine, but the other abilities need to be more iconic and have some condition AND power applications. I’d like to see Rock Barrier have some condition damage potection as well, like reduce incoming condition damage by 20%, so that the decision to “hold onto it or use it” becomes more of an important decision. Similarly, Hurl does not have any synergy with condi builds outside of projectile finishing, which is nice, but it could use at least some Bleed options on it, and could use a slight damage bump for power builds so that the decision to “burst off” your defense to go offensive is a worth while choice depending on the situation.

The auto needs some moderately better power ratios and maybe the slightest increase in duration on the Bleeds. Dust Devil is very underwhelming, and could use either some additional conditions or perhaps some projectile destruction, or both. Its timing should be rewarding and have some good defensive applications, but as it stands it is a very underwhelming blind.

Water: Its almost good, but it still feels wonky. The auto could be ever so slightly improved with its travel speed and damage and potentially move the Vulnerability stacking to the auto instead of the second skill and add some Bleeds to it, but the second ability definitely could use a damage increase as well as some Chill application on detonation. Water Trident needs some CC application, like a small knock-back on the impact location. A bit of bump on the damage and healing SCALING (not base) would be appreciated.

Air: Should be the best “single target” option that also performs well against mobile foes, unlike fire, and really needs a condition and power play-style options. This should be a constant pressure damage on the opponent, but the three skills currently are the least interesting in the game. You have two “instant cast” abilities and a long channel. In my opinion, is the least “fun and interesting” attunement option for scepter currently. I think this would be a good attunement foe punishing runners and constant movers with power and conditions that make sense:

Make Lightning Strike the new auto, and allow it to be ground targeted if no target is selected, and have it do increased damage to “isolated” targets with no allies around them. Single target damage, less potential sustained damage than Firestrike from Fire if target is not isolated, and also have it apply Torment stacks to punish runners and make it useful for condition builds against moving foes.

Arc Lightning could become the new second skill which would apply increasing amounts of damage with bonus damage to moving foes and and apply increasing amounts of Torment stacks the longer it is channeled, dealing very high condi or power damage if the foe does not interrupt you and you can keep them in range (which plays nicely with air’s mobility).

Blinding Flash could become Bolt Jolt, a brief 1 second Daze that grants 3 seconds of Super-speed on Interrupt, with a longer recharge of say 15 seconds. This would work well with the Air line’s Lightning Rod build and would help maintain distance to keep Arc Lightning going for maximum damage.

Changes like the above could make the Scepter useful for far more build options, and give the Elementalist some range flexibility for power and condi builds that function well in the mid-range, while making certain attacks more televised for foes and make the attunement’s “uses” more distinct, ie Fire is AOE and punishing stationary, air is single target and punishing isolation and movement, Water is supportive and hindering, while Earth is attrition and survivability.

Congrats! I’ve always been a fan of your shieldsmanship

What are your hardest, and conversely, easiest match ups individual profession wise and “team comp” wise?

I’m assuming this is a bug, because I recall this working as early as a few months ago, especially around the HOT launch:

Abilities or effects that grant Toughness are NOT being calculated in the “% of Toughness Converted to X” effects.

I’ve tested it with the Tempest/Elementalist, and the following will NOT increase your Condition Damage when you have the “10% of Toughness Converted to Condition Damage” Strength of Stone Trait and “6% of Toughness gained as Condition Damage” effect from Master Tuning Crystal Consumable:

Does not work:
Earth Attunmenet (150 Toughness with minor trait from Earth line)
Signet of Earth (180 Toughness)
Conjure Earth Shield (180 Toughness, and 180 Vitality for the Master Tuning Crystal to convert more, which ALSO is not working)
Rock Barrier (250 Toughness while active)

This totals to 760 Toughness that is not being accounted for, which with the above conversions, is a missing 121.6 Condition Damage that is missing. This is further increased with some other factors, so its a reasonably noticeable missing amount of Condition Damage for my raid Tempest build I’m trying to make work

This is also is true for the Power gained from Might if using the Power Overwhelming trait which converts 10% of Power into Condition Damage. The Power from the Might stacks are NOT calculated in with the 10% conversion to Condition damage.

Can anyone confirm if this is working as intended or are these in fact bugs?

If these are “intended” then these traits and effects NEED to clarify “Toughness gained from Armor” instead of “Toughness” because, as written, they are NOT functioning properly, and drastically change the potency of these traits and effects!

Thank the 6, all norn spirits, the great alchemy, the pale mother, and our lord and savior Rytlock. My Tempest tank has been awaiting this day since HOTs release!!

Trule.3549:

Anyone know how this compares in damage output to the 22k dps build by Particular?

It will do less damage for sure since its forgoing the physical damage stats, but it gains huge toughness and decent health. It will deal more raw condi damage than that build but not enough to make up for the lost physical.

Highest ive hit in pvp on svanir was 18k. 25 might with druid buffs and scholar runes and the best modifiers possible.

Using Vault in place back to back feels like it completes faster than 1 second for each use so that should be considered.

We need some actual video timing evidence though.

A nice and not insignificant bonus is that daredevils can maintain their dps while repositioning for mechanics with minimal loss since they can bound away and vault back in, or double Vault to use up initiative before running to kill a cannon kn sabetha for example, then use vault steal or shadowstep to quickly get back on the boss

blarghhrrkblah.3412:

Auesis.7301:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GB62bBYWSTQ

Here’s my POV of the final raid boss. Survivability isn’t even close to a problem. Everything you do is some kind of evasion and you get endurance back easily, otherwise the Druid instantly put me to 100% if I did get hit. I struggled to find anyone who could take out the cannons at the speed I was doing it, too.

It was the same with Vale Guardian and Gorseval. DPS is super easy to land when you know the WC hitbox, survivability is, as mentioned, not a problem, and mobility + CC is great. Any Herald past the 1st one is kind of a waste. The Glint heal is nice in that you can keep DPSing when there’s a huge threat incoming, but you can also Vault-evade through that threat so… /shrug

That’s interesting…it never occurred to me to actually walk away from the boss a few steps before WCing…will practice this. Thanks for the video!

This video is an excellent example of how dare devils mobility really does factor i to their realistic dps. I Imagine how long a herald or condi engineer would take for cannon duty and how much they lose on moving for the tnt. Very well played sir.

If your group had the optimal comp your damage would have been even more impressive.

Zero Day.2594:

Swiftwynd.1685:

…
The 11.5k Health is really a non-issue for raids if you run Invigorating Precision. 11.5k Health gets healed up really nicely when you’re criting for over 30k per second with some attacks. Plenty of times I’m the last one alive on VG wipes.
…

God, I must be playing this game wrong – 30k crits per second… how the kitten do get that? Vault?

Btw, is it really 30k per second…? Or do you just mean 30k on some attacks…

Like you know, if you crit once for 30k over the span of 30 seconds while doing 3-4k other times, you can’t really call that 30k per second…. however if you do 900k (total) damage in over the span of 30 seconds, then yes that’s 30k per second…
Or do you mean 30k crit in one second and you consider it as 30k per second? That’s just a burst/damage of 1 skill, not your actual dps in the span of the whole fight. We really need dps meters (there is one actually, need to give it a try), since there’s also the issue of dealing with boss mechanics along with dodging and positioning….

Measuring – using the dps meter – on golems in the sPvP lobby also doesn’t give exact numbers, since the stats are a bit different and they’re stationary, likewise going out in PvE and measuring on champs that don’t have many/any mechanics…. I remember in wow, on target dummies melee classes would out-dps ranged/casters in some cases (on some patches… blah blah blah), and that was to account for the dps lose in the actual fight for when they had to deal with mechanics. Like for instance, look at noxxic dps rankings there’s one for “maximum” and then there’s one for “realistic” – and even then, I doubt that it accounts for all the fights and their mechanics…

25 might 25 vuln on raid bosses with banners, warrior strength buff, rev ferocity buff, and smatter in some druid buffs and it is certainly possible and common.

Weakening Charge does rediculously good damage in these conditions against big boddied raid bosses. Be sure to use Seaweed Salad as well and keep yiur health high for scholar runes and other traits.

I’ve run similar builds, and I highly recommend going heavy on the Physical skills and using Imparing Daggers as your opener if you think it has a good chance to land.

That + Unloadspam + the free Immobilize from the trait once a foe is hit below 50% with Panic Strike … its delicious if they dont have a quick way out of immobilize. Certain to make them blow them cooldowns or dodges

rogerwilko.6895:

In order to reach the highest DPS so that you can contribute Something(your damage) to your group you will have to go full out DPS resulting in having 11k HP. GL with that.

..

So it is my opinion that Thief is not in a good place now for top PvE (Raids). I see no reason why a group leader would chose a 11k HP DPS-er with no group support. Why not chose a warrior or a Revenant who can output the same DPS by pressing #1, but have GREAT group support, almost Double HP and heavy armor?

I am aware that I may be wrong, and I really hope I am, since Thief is the profession that I enjoyed most in the past. But that hope (that I am wrong) is so tiny that I decided I won’t be a burden for my raid group and I won’t roll with a thief in raids.

Good news, you ARE wrong!

The 11.5k Health is really a non-issue for raids if you run Invigorating Precision. 11.5k Health gets healed up really nicely when you’re criting for over 30k per second with some attacks. Plenty of times I’m the last one alive on VG wipes.

The constant steam of health, over abundance of dodge options (steal recovers a dodge, heal recovers two dodges, etc) and the fact that our dodge is also a dps tool … it just works so well.

For raid composition, if I’m building my full dps group, I’d want:

Herald, for extending every other member’s boons at key moments, contributing good dps, and potentially protection uptime if required.

Druid, for some healing and most importantly contributing their unique damage buffs, could even be berserker as far as I’m concerned, since Tempest is the better raw healer with better protection uptime that could be “ungrouped” to aid in their healing role.

Ditto for Phalanx Strength warrior for banners and might.

Lastly, a Chronomancer to keep up near permanent quickness if coordinating with the Herald. Makes the best tank option as well in “Commander” gear for boon uptime, small toughness, and still good damage.

This leaves a last spot to fill. You can place a Dare Devil staff thief in here for maximum damage, or if more AOE spread damage is needed, Tempest is a close second to Dare Devil (35 to 40k Vaults are hard to compete with!).

I dont NEED a second Herald on that group. Nor a second Druid. Nor a second Warrior. A Sinister Engineer would be an option if more condi is needed and the fight is stationary enough OR we need a lot more break bar. Second Chrono is a waste in the same group, a DPS guardian isnt really the best fit here either, better for group two’s ranged roles if needed for more security and safety while still doing good berserker damage.

But if our main issue is we need more consistent, reliable, GOOD melee damage? Dare Devil. Every. Single. Time.

The only time I would consider a Dare Devil to be a poor choice is if future content ever:

Has un-critable mechanics.

Has a VERY small hit box, making Weakening Charge less reliable.

Has a pulsing melee unavoiable aoe mechanic that makes melee nearly impossible, but even then, the damage would have to outpace the self healing from Invigorating precision, which is going to be quite high.

To put things in perspective, my Dare Devil can sit in the light up areas on VG and out heal the damage by simply continuing the DPS rotation on the boss.

Long story short, while “they only provide selfish damage” might be the “only” thing Dare Devil brings with their staff build … its enough. It really, truly is. Once you have all your “essential” things met, its simply the best thing to bring into the group for maximum efficiency of damage output.

Its going to take all those banners, spirits, damage enhancements, might, etc and put them to better use than anyone else as the final member.

By the pale mother I’m simply going to have to put out a video showing the Dare Devil’s raid dps potential to finally shut up all these people who GASP at the thought of Dare Devil being the highest dps class in the game … ugh.

Least it will give me a pet project for a while.

Suffice to say:

If you enjoy doing physical damage that exceeds that of all other classes, and welcome the challenge of staying alive while dealing this damage, and learning a DPS rotation that is flexible based on what you are fighting and when your group gives their damage buffs, Thief is for you.

To briefly explain:

In GW2 there are ways to increase the offense of your group. Some classes provide others with a stacking buff called Might, others provide Fury, which increases your chance to crit, and still further some classes offer unique ways of further enhancing damage stats.

Warriors/Berserkers provide Banners and a group wide Power buff. (easiest might stacker in game also)

Ranger/Druid provides a spirit that buffs raw damage, increases crit chance of group, and as a druid has access to two powerful damage % increases.

Mesmer/Chronomancer provides Quickness (increases speed of ability use) and Alacrity (reduced recharge timer on abilities).

Revenants/Heralds provide 50% boon duration to help all of the above, as well as their might/fury stacking, and a group critical damage buff.

If you have all of the above in a group, the absolute BEST person for the final slot for maximum damage is a Dare Devil (thief’s elite specialization).

The Thief offers NO offensive support for other classes, but it is by definition the highest damage in the game if played correctly while using the Staff skill set (unlocked at 80 with the expansion.)

Most people are VERY unaware of this fact, and I plan on putting out some raw numbers and raid footage eventually for demonstration the Daredevil’s damage potential.

There are three things that make the Dare Devil stand out as a damage dealer:

1. Their dodge deals damage, which is only shared with Warriors, and it increases their damage by 10% for 4 seconds. This allows damage while avoiding telegraphs.
2. Their damage largely comes from their Initiative skills, which consume a finite resource that slowly recovers over time, but their weapon skills have no recharge. This allows a Dare Devil to “burst” all of their damage in quick bursts during the brief uptime of some offensive buffs (specifically the druid’s, which lasts for a short time). This allows them to get more bang per Initiative spent.
3. Their Vault skill allows for repositioning as needed, as well as their Steal skill which teleports you to a foe in 1,200 range. This allows them to be where they need to be in a raid.

Outside of raiding, as long as you know how to dodge well, the Dare Devil is very, very durable in even the least defensive of gear, and I rarely go down in some of the harder open world content. And during raiding, you are amazingly self-sustainable without need of much external healing due to a trait which can convert 15% of your critical hit’s damage into self healing. Considering 30K to 40K critical hits are possible, and you only have 11.5k or so health baseline in full offensive gear, you heal up exceptionally quick if you take a hit, and the Daredevil’s heal is actually REALLY strong and fast, while also rebuilding your dodge energy.

So long story short:

Thief, at least as a Dare Devil, is not just “ok” or “bad,” it is amazing if played well. BUT it is not easy.

If you want “Easy and Great” go Revenant/Herald. If you want “Challenging with Higher Potential” go Dare Devil.

To save you all some time and money, NO poison will stack over the 100% increase, even with the trait.

The tooltips are bugged. I just tested it in PVP: Should have been a 21 second poison on Impairing Daggers, but only lasted for 16 seconds, which is double its base value at 100% increase.

Zaerah.1630:

Galandil.9641:

Uhm, I wonder why your numbers are lower than mines.

Interesting, what kind of rotation are you using and for how long. I just can’t get to over 9k whatever i do. I also used exactly same build as you.

For me it was bound->fist flurry->double vault->autoattack chain->bound->vault->autoattack chain->bound->vault and so on, using steal when low on endurance and fist flurry when off cooldown.

also just to be sure, i did mine on indestructible target golem

Only issue with this rotation is maintaining initiative.

WC is more efficient in terms of damage to initiative, so unless you find yourself in a situation where you cant empty your initiative by spamming weakening charge before damage buffs run out, it should be superior to vault, assuming no multi targets.

If all three hits land it is slightly less damage than vault for 2 less initiative. But yea if you notice late that you only have like 2 seconds left on druid buffs, probably best to spam two vaults before they fade.

Urejt.5648:

Hope silly pve boys will acknoledge the fact staff thief is best dps in game

Agreed.

If all your offensivesupport conditions are met, thief is the best dps for the 5th slot of a melee group.

In my not quite but almost optimized group i was doing 30 to 36k on my weakening charges, upwards of 40k vaults, and 16k+ dodges.

The fact that we can burn through our initiative during damage buffs from druid makes us default the best imo for really coordinated speed clears.

Ensign.2189:

In the spirit of your previous post, the following statements are incorrect:

Swiftwynd.1685:

despite what you say it <Whirling Charge> DOES complete faster than once per second

Swiftwynd.1685:

The thing is, the Rev’s sword 3 is a DPS loss over their auto attacking

Swiftwynd.1685:

Whats more, the Daredevil is the only class in the game who can really front load all of their damage to fully take advantage of the Druid’s 15% + 10% limited time bonus damage.

Swiftwynd.1685:

Spaming Weakening Charge, with one dodge before and after 4x WC’es, is the maximum burst rotation for DPS in the entire game, bar-none.

(Channeling Overload Air is the really obvious counter-example to the previous two assertions)

Swiftwynd.1685:

A daredevil using Weakening charge spam with Quickness while being buffed by all those external sources annihilates the damage of the Herald. Pure and simple.

Im not incorrect on the front loading damage. Daredevil is the only class that can break their normal dps rotation by going into a real burn phase to make the most of the buffs while they are up.

Air overload is simply a part of the rotation for tempests with fresh air. Its much harder to coordinate that to synch up with the druids glyph or CAF than a dare devil simply changing their momentum from dodge 2 auto into dodge 2 2 2 2 dodge 2.

As an update, i know the whole “big numbers doesn’t mean high dps” trope is a thing, but in a more optimized group I was seeing consistent high 30,000 to 36,000 damage per Weakening Charge, and despite what you say it DOES complete faster than once per second, because I can easily fit four into the duration of the dodge buff without it running out. 16k Dodge damage and very strong Vaults as well, though I didnt use them as much.

The thing is, the Rev’s sword 3 is a DPS loss over their auto attacking, so if they are forced to use it often its a loss, while they and every other class does generally have to dodge or move out of some mechanics, ie the blue rocks on VG. Dodging during this time is actually a DPS boost in favor of the Daredevil, who can avoid the hazard and continue their dps rotation.

Whats more, the Daredevil is the only class in the game who can really front load all of their damage to fully take advantage of the Druid’s 15% + 10% limited time bonus damage. Spaming Weakening Charge, with one dodge before and after 4x WC’es, is the maximum burst rotation for DPS in the entire game, bar-none. Quickness improves its animation speed as well, so that is a moot point.

A daredevil using Weakening charge spam with Quickness while being buffed by all those external sources annihilates the damage of the Herald. Pure and simple.

The difficulty is coordinating these bursts of damage, but that is where teamwork comes into play.

The daredevil’s innate mobility options are also very good for covering for the mistakes of other group members, as a quick Vault can position you to get a revive off or get in a lightning aoe in a pinch if absolutely necessary, although others should be doing this.

I pulled my information from the Wiki, so if it is incorrect then it needs to be updated.

BlueDragon.7054:

Swiftwynd.1685:

Rodriguez.8106:

Swiftwynd.1685:

Simply put, no class will “add more total damage to the raid” than a Daredevil if your offensive support needs are sufficiently met.

nice world u are living in… thief most dmg made my day. rev with autoattack makes way more dps just by standing at the boss and do nothing but AA. no matter which buffs are on both classes

In real numbers, what I’ve seen in a non optimized raid looks something like a 10,000 dodge, 18,000 or higher Weakening Charge hitting three times for 6k, and ending with a 20,000+ ish total auto chain that is admittedly lower than Revs, repeated every 4 seconds.

And last but not least, Vault. Vault regularly hits for over 22,000 in raids, and is a great tool to reposition yourself while having to be mobile AND do damage. It is far less efficient than Weakening strike, but it has the Evade at the start, is 5 target AoE, and helps you get to places without really sacrificing your dps (so does steal as well, but it has a timer.)

Dare devil damage is good, you are even being really conservative with the damage of the dare devil, unless Gorseval has more thoughness than the vale guardian, I have defeated the Vale guardian, but I have´t tried Goreseval yet, so I don´t know.

In a pug group in the Vale Guardian my dodge hits from 12k to 16k, weakening strike from 8500 to 10200per hit (so like 30600 max) and vault from 26000 to 32000. (those numbers are aproximate, I don´t remember the exact numbers.)

Exactly. My group was very unoptimized it didnt have a good ps warrior and druid wasnt coordinating his damage buffs for burst phase.

Another thing i forgot to mention is daredevil is the only class in the game that can compress a lot of their damage potential front loaded into a 6 second window if needed, which is perfect for a druid popping all their damage buffs at once along with the chrono.

Two dodges and 5 weakening charges with quickness and full druid buffs is rediculously far and away the best burst dps in the game.

Thaddeus.4891:

Henry.5713:

I am sure one can actually finish the raid with a couple of thieves. Many spots are just filled with full damage builds (not including condition damage focused ones).
Thieves can spam short bow blasts on fields for “support” even or do some other plays.

You need to consider how people think about raids first, though:
-People want to finish content they haven’t mastered yet
-They want to finish it well and they don’t want to take chances
-They much rather expect the worst of you and instead invite someone with easier or just more support while having equal damage
-They will always prefer groups which won’t need them to communicate or have as much team work
-They will use what is “supposed” to be needed if they aren’t sure themselves
-They will exclude those who are “supposed” to be useless
-Etc.

Just think how it used to be with dungeons if you find this strange:
-People didn’t take a blast group if they could have a PS warrior
-They didn’t take an engineer for stealth if there was thief to take
-They would have never attempted a run without a Frost Bow
-Etc.
Raids lead to the same mentality times ten.

That should answer the “why” question.

That would be true if we knew what is best or not yet. Which we don’t. People heard rumours or saw a couple of video, or worth go check metabattle raid section (facepalm) and think they have an idea of what is good or bad. Why thief would be less efficient for the first fight as the 2 last spots for dps than other profession?

I would understand that you don’t want a thief when you don’t have your PS Warrior, 2 Herald for buff, your chronomancer, druid, condi engineer or tank. But once those sport are filled there is still 1-2 spot to fill and there is very reason to exclude a thief for those spot just because it’s a thief.

Especially considering that, with all of those roles filled as you mentioned, Daredevil berserker staff thief running double signets is the “realistically and consistently achievable” highest damage role you could slot in the melee group.

Once people catch on they will be looking for Daredevils to fill those last slots instead of “lolweneemoreHeraldsItheyarebestdps.” Good ones who can maintain their Scholar buff (hint, Invigorating Precision is worth losing +250 Ferocity imo, one vault heals you for 1/3 of your health or more).

Now, I’ll admit it DOES take more effort and skill to dps on Daredevil so the chance of getting a crappy one is way higher, but its does deal enough damage over its competitors to be chosen significantly.

Shadowwarrior.7159:

No, he takes normal damage, but is not moving around or spawning blue and green circles on the ground – so one tactic is to let him be and dps until the next phase. But the areas still will light up.

Only really works well if you have fantastic ranged damage and can avoid his aoes.

Trule.3549:

anyone had a chance to try this with trailblazers yet?

Still bugged,

Glares at 6 Insignias and 2 Inscriptions sitting in bags

I’m so down.

By the way, Seekers move towards who ever last hit them.

Shortbow Thief should easily be the “best” Seeker Wrangler. Bouncing auto to tag them, then short bow 5’s legendary mobility to lead them away, while repositioning to dps the boss. This could potentially be a neat “full ranged” thief build, using Pistol Pistol to dps the boss until all initiative is drained, while then using Roll for Initiative away from boss to lead the seekers away, then back in to dps quickly before repeating.

I’m sooo down to do this, please PM me about it later!!

martin.1653:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQJAoYl8MhGnYlTwwJw/EH4ElPLuiuYHnBQD2rrcoIA-TBCBAB7pH4S1f0S5HaKBXa/BAeAA5pBJgTAApAiYkF-e

Why not something like this? Self-healing galore!
- Signet of Malice
- Assassins Reward
- Invigorating precision

Honestly for a pure damage build Invigorating Precision is more than sufficient.

One 20k Vault and you just healed yourself 3,000 health per target. Hit three targets? you’re full.

Rodriguez.8106:

Swiftwynd.1685:

Simply put, no class will “add more total damage to the raid” than a Daredevil if your offensive support needs are sufficiently met.

nice world u are living in… thief most dmg made my day. rev with autoattack makes way more dps just by standing at the boss and do nothing but AA. no matter which buffs are on both classes

Sigh … math time!

Revenant Auto Attack chain with the sword is certainly GOOD damage, that cannot be ignored, but with that said, it only appears to be stronger than other class’s options due to the Revenant’s access to Quickness.

Revenant’s entire sword attack chain takes 2.05 seconds for the whole sequence and does a combined total of 226 (0.82) + 355 (0.97) + 330 (0.97) + 110 (0.3) = 1021 (3.06) damage.

Ignoring all other modifiers, this is 498.04 (1.493) Damage per second. The ( ) number is the attack modifier from Weapon and Power.

Looking at Daredevil Staff, we have:

Total Duration: 2.14 (only .09 slower than Rev Sword)
215 (0.55) + 254 (0.65) + 516 (1.32) = 985 (2.52)

So at face value, Revenant’s Sword out performs Daredevil’s staff on the auto attack comparison, fair enough.

But, this is without considering damage modifiers, which we will cover next:

Daredevil Max Damage Raid Build has the following Modifiers:

Daredevil:

• Havoc Master: +7%
• Staff Master: +10% (condition: endurance not full)
• Bounding Dodger: 10% (condition: Dodge at least once every 4 seconds) Bonus: Dodge deals SIGNIFICANT damage, but I don’t have exact numbers, can hit10k in raids, which is damage dealt while most other classes have none (Rev can use sword 3 for this though)

Critical Strikes:

• Keen Observer/Flawless Strikes: 5% Crit Chance and 7% Crit Damage (Condition: Health Above 90%)
• Ferocious Strikes: +10% Crit Damage (Condition: foe is above 50% Health)
• Practiced Tolerance: 10% Precision converted to Ferocity (+14.27% Crit Damage in full ascended berserker with Signet of Agility, more if running Assassin mixed in)
• No Quarter: 250 Ferocity (16.66% Crit Damage, although I’d highly recommend running Invigorating Precision, this would be for those super elite Daredevil who can avoid all the damage)

Deadly Arts:

• Expose Weakness: +10% (Condition: Foe has a Condition, aka always)
• Executioner: 20% bonus damage (Condition: foe below 50%)
• Mug: Steal gains burst damage and heal, does not interrupt other abilities so pure damage and sustain bonus
• Revealed Training: Goreseval applies some reveal so this gives 200 power for a time during the fight.

Total Combined Modifiers at a given time: +87.7% (or 29.4% if not considering the increases to Ferocity at a 1:1 ratio and keeping them out of the equation)

Situation 1: Foe above 50%, you are above 90%, and you are using Dodge appropriately, foe has at least 1 condition: 10% * 10% * 7% * (+48% Crit Damage increase, which is = to flat damage increases at 100% Crit, which this build should hit with food/group buffs and the appropriate Assassin trinkets etc) = a total of +87.7% damage modifier if you multiply them together, as they all stack multiplicative.

Crit Damage might be slightly wonky since its a +48% to a base of +150% thats already been increased to 220% via ascended Berserker stats, but even ignoring that, it would still be a 29.4% damage increase even not considering the critical strike damage bonus already in non-crit related modifiers. For crit damage bonuses actual impact, it is increasing the 220% of berserker stats to 268%, which is a 21.9% actual increase in actual damage, which can be multiplied directly with the existing flat bonuses if the build reaches 100% critical hit, which it can.

This leaves us with a grand total damage increase of 57.74% damage against foes over 50% health while we maintain our modifiers.

For foes below 50% but with all other conditions met, you trade out the +10% Crit Damage and gain +20% raw damage modifier.

So: +45.65 base damage and +17.2% damage mod from crit (this is lower now since we lose the +10% crit damage on foes above 50%), for a total of:

+70.7% damage modifiers against low health targets while maintaining our other conditions.

Last but not least, you have Signets for +180 Power/Precision, which Revenants do not have.

Now lets compare Revenant’s damage modifiers:

Shiro:

• Targeted Destruction: +7% Damage (Condition: Foe has Vuln, read ALWAYS)
• Vicious Lacerations: +10% Damage (Condition: Must be constantly Sword meleeing without interruption, can be lost if forced out of melee or if forced to swap to CC breakbar)
• Assassin’s Presence: 150 Ferocity to party (10% Crit Damage to 5 people, undeniably solid)
• Swift Termination: +20% damage to foes below 50%.

Invocation:

• Ferocious Aggression: +7% damage while you have Fury (always essentially)

Herald:

• Elder’s Force: +2% per boon (lets assume Might, Fury, Swiftness, Quickness, Regeneration, and Vigor are maintained with high up time, heck even throw in Protection, so 14% maybe but 10% realistically.

This means assuming the best case:

Above 50% on foe a Herald maintains the following modifiers:
14% * 7% 10% * 7% = 43% base damage modifier and a +10% crit damage mod, increasing Berserker’s 220% to 230%, a +4.5% damage increase, totaling to a grand total of a *49.4% increase in damage.

For targets below 50% health, this increases to:

79% base increase

So with that said, you would be fair to assume that the Revenant has the upper hand, yes?

Wrong.

All of the above is primarily considering purely auto attacking, which the Herald build simply wins over hand a fist by having a much better base auto attack AND better modifiers.

But Auto-attacking is purely the best damage rotation a Herald can do. Daredevils use initiative for the bulk of their damage.

Lets look at the workhorse of the Daredevil’s damage, the attack that makes them the highest DPS in the game on big boned bosses like Goreseval:

Weakening Charge (well, AND Dagger’s Heartseeker sub 25% is a close contender).

Weakening Charge has 822 (2.1) damage dealt over 1/2 a second for 3 initiative.

For comparison, Heartseeker has less damage when a foe is sub 25% (672 (2.0))

So why is Weakening Charge allowed to have such colossal damage potential? Because it is traditionally difficult to land all three hits on a normal hit box, requiring really strong positioning and timing, all of which lowers its actual potential dps.

But no so on big fatty mc fatpants Gorseval. Its exceedingly easy to land all three hits on mr tubby, so you can realize its full damage potential consistently. Heartseeker wins out against a highly mobile smaller body, and thus is still the better “assassination” tool in PvP to keep up with fleeing foes.

For a comparison, one weakening charge can be completed in essentially half a second, with some small after cast delay. That said, it can be used very quickly is the gist of it.

In that time, it can do its 822 (2.1) damage, which when we can compare the Heralds auto attack chain, which is 1021 (3.06) but over 2 seconds to complete.

A Daredevil can easily insert two Weakening Charges in the time it takes a Herald to complete one full non-quickness auto chain, for a total of 1644 (4.2) damage.

This means that, in this scenario, ignoring all modifiers and just base weapons, if a Daredevil could maintain spamming Weakening Charge for ever (hint, it cant) it would be dealing 61% more base damage, and 37% better power/weapon scaling damage.

While a Daredevil certainly CANNOT maintain Weakening Charge spam for ever, it can have a very high up-time on it. The “easiest” rotation is Dodge into foe, Weakening charge, Auto-attack chain while re-positioning, and repeat.

In real numbers, what I’ve seen in a non optimized raid looks something like a 10,000 dodge, 18,000 or higher Weakening Charge hitting three times for 6k, and ending with a 20,000+ ish total auto chain that is admittedly lower than Revs, repeated every 4 seconds.

The only thing that slows down this tempo is running out of dodges, which can be renewed a bit with Channeled Vigor, taking a 3/4 second break in dps to heal to full and recover two dodges.

Now, in burst phases of maximum damage, the rotation becomes Dodge, Weakening Strike x4, dodge, Weakening Strike. This will run the thief out of Initiative and/or Endurance. This is where you fill the damage gap with Fist Flurry (1,625 + 739 + non-critting 1,940 base damage, quite high!) and then auto attacks, or use this time to reposition or deal with a fight’s mechanic. Frontloading 4 Weakening charges into a 4 second time frame, in the un-optimized groups i was in, could still result in 82,000 damage over a 4 to 5 second period, aka around a 20k dps burst. Hint: Gorseval has a stunned phase after breaking his bar when this is a “good idea.”

Unless you need to save Fist Flurry for its Daze on a break bar, of course.

This comes to the final section of why Dare Devil is amazing. It doesn’t have to stop its dps to dodge OR to deal with break bears.

Like i mentioned earlier, if a Herald wishes to deal with a break bar, he can: Glint ult (long cast), Shiro ult (really long cast) or swap to staff and use staff 5 (amazing breakbar, but severely cuts into the damage rotation until they can swap back.)

Daredevil on the other hand simply uses Fist Flurry into Impact Stike, one of his highest damage options, following by the first two hits of Impact Strike and Uppercut, both of which are very quick, gap close slightly, AND do decent damage, and dont impact the thief’s energy mechanics, while Herald’s energy must be expended in some form to use their CC breaks.

And last but not least, Vault. Vault regularly hits for over 22,000 in raids, and is a great tool to reposition yourself while having to be mobile AND do damage. It is far less efficient than Weakening strike, but it has the Evade at the start, is 5 target AoE, and helps you get to places without really sacrificing your dps (so does steal as well, but it has a timer.)

Combine all of these together, with the signet’s free power and precision, with Fist Flurry’s great damage and free daze, with Impact Strikes good damage, Vaults great damage, positioning, and utlity, and the “decent but not best” auto attack damage, and Weakening Charge’s batkittenbananas good damage, and all of the afformentioned modifiers that bring the Daredevil just barely below the Herald’s, and you can quickly see how the Daredevil performs so well as a function “real world” top dps class in the game.

It doesn’t need condition damage build up time. It doesn’t have super heavily stationary dps rotations. It can do its damage while mobile. It can sacrifice some damage to life steal itself to full health constantly to maintain its Scholar and other +90% health buffs, and it just looks SO MUCH COOLER than autoattacking with Rev’s sword :P Fashion Wars 2, amiright?

This is why the Daredevil is the best “all in damage guy” to bring once your other conditions are met.

Have your PS Warrior with banners and might stacking?
Have your Druid with spotter and all their lovely flat damage buffs?
Have a Herald to buff the duration of everyone’s boons while maintaining Fury and adding great dps?
Have a Chrono to tank and maintain Alacrity and Quickness on everyone by combining with the Herald?

Add in the Daredevil to take all those lovely, awesome offensive support options to multiply them into a truly devastating raid DPS. And take a Condi Berserker or Enginee in your second group

EDIT: This is 2am math for me, if ANYTHING is incorrect please correct me, I really dont want to be spreading inaccurate information.

For example, a good “meta” style group would include:
1 Chronomancer Tank in Commander gear (hands down the most efficient use of role imo, I’ve played with our raid leader who always uses this)

1 form of healing, ideally Druid for offensive buffs, or alternatively a Tempest who is mostly damage speced but can provide permanent vigor/regen/protection to make it that much easier for screw ups. Tempests can easily double as healer and might/fury stacker for a group while dealing good damage, and also a good candidate for using Commander gear to have 100% might/fury duration with maybe some Rev’s F2 support.

8 slots remaining to fill any needed roles.

One of the 8 should be a PS Warrior, and perhaps one or at most 2 of the remaining 7 should be Heralds.

This leaves 6 slots for “damage” of any sort, which some need to be Condi, but really no more than 3 just to deal with the initial boss’s condi red split.

So that leaves us with 3 spots remaining for pure damage. We have our druid buffs, warrior buffs, chrono buffs, and our Heralds to extend timewarp Quickness etc, so the remaining people need to contribute as much damage as possible.

You could potentially run multiple offensive groups, with each group having the following:

1 Berserker (actually exceptionally strong condi option now while still bringing the aforementioned support)
1 Herald
1 Chronomancer
1 Daredevil
1 Druid

That would give you probably the most “ideal” upkeep of Might, Fury, and Quickness along with the 5 members of each group having their druid/warrior specific buffs.

Sub out one daredevil if needed for a staff Tempest to deal ranged damage if mechanics require, such as the orbs that need to be ranged down on Gore. Druid also provides ranged damage as needed even while being the healer, and nothing says that you couldnt go Dual Pistol on Daredevil if really in a bind for more damage.

Two burnzerkers could probably provide all the condi damage you need for red phase of first fight, but then they arent doing PS might stacking, so you’d need to get the might else where.

Long story short, a raid should ideally have a place for one to two top DPS Daredevils in most set ups.

Zero Day.2594:

The problem isn’t trying to fulfill a role, be it condi/phys dps or now a tank.

The problem is, why would I bring a thief over another class that can fulfill that role plus more.

For instance, I could just bring a necro running:

http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Reaper_Tank

Which should produce either the same or more damage (let’s just talk damage and ignore other things), and I say more due to the stat choice for gear. Hell, swap out blood magic like suggested, and get the “Death Perception”http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death_Perception trait so I can have a free +50% crit chance in shroud – making me a tank that DOES damage…

Oh and I won’t haven to worry too much about timing dodges to avoid damage, I will just eat it all at leisure…

So, why would I bring a thief over a necro as a tank. And that just comparing it to one prof… There’s a couple other profs out there that can tank…

Like wise, condi DPS -> why not bring an engie,
Phys DPS -> why not bring a rev… or a necro…

Sure, you can beat a raid with a thief, but why not bring a different class that will make your life easier?

Simple, and I dont see how you dont understand it?

Thief simply is the BEST damage in the game when you stack OTHER people’s offensive support onto it. It is best in slot for a pure damage role, pure and simple, end of story.

Goreseval is a straight up dps race. You need to maximize your damage potential to stand a chance at winning. Horribly designed fight in my opinion due to that, but thats the truth of the matter.

If you already have your supportive elements met (ie enough might stacking, Fury stacking, Warrior’s banners, and Rev’s Ferocity buff, and Druid’s offensive buffs/spirits/spotter etc) then there is NO REASON to stack additional classes of the same role.

While thief is not offering “anything” other than damage, that is fine, because it will USE all of the afformentioned damage multipliers better than anyone else.

The only damage multipler than is a bit substandard on thief is Alacrity, while hopefully the devs will eventually address.

That said, as a power damage daredevil, you wouldn’t want to stack a ton of them UNLESS the aforementioned offensive support elements are in place. Further more, their best damage is in melee range, meaning they wont take the slot of needed ranged damage roles, e.g. staff elementalist/tempest.

The only reason Revenants appear to do such high damage is that they have a strong auto attack and self-supplied quickness and might stacking, but if you apply all that quickness and might to your Daredevil he will vastly outperform the Rev.

Its a concept of “Enablers” and “Users.” Some classes provide outstanding offensive support, think of your traditional bard in an MMO, but without a sufficiently “selfish” dps class to take full advantage of it, the bard’s offensive support is less valuable.

Simply put, no class will “add more total damage to the raid” than a Daredevil if your offensive support needs are sufficiently met.

Galandil.9641:

Swiftwynd.1685:

Assuming others provide the 25 might and fury, which any good comp should, it simply has the highest sustained damage in the game. The rotation is a simple dodge, staff 2, then a full auto chain while you reposition.

This combines a huge list of modifiers and strictly speaking is the highest direct damage build available. Dare devil alone adds 10% 10% and 7% mods. Then you have all the ones from crit strikes and deadly arts.

Staff 2 on a large hitbox is the most initiative efficent damage outside of low health heartseeker. You can also deal damage during situations where most other classes have to stop their damage to either dodge or use cc, since both your xodge and cc skills contribute good damage.

Laslty, invigorating precision transfers your damage into slef sustain making you very durable during a fight even without a healer.

The only reason Heralds appear to have crazy damage is Quickness uptime, but a good chronomancer can time warp every 30 seconds, and a heralds f2 buff can extend that quickness better than the herald using impossible odds, so the thief can have their better base damage buffed even higher with all of the offensive support from others.

Basically, while a thief doesnt bring offensive support, it benefits the most from offensive support provided by others rather than doubling up on say 3 revs or extra warriors or chronos.

Care to expand on this build?

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQFAWn8lCVmilOBGOBkmiFaCbzwpCNXB3gjQtAgIAA-TlRBABXp8DPdAAcBAe4BAQp6PmpEEA-w

I left some parts empty, cause I’m pretty undecided on what to use in order to maximize DPS.

For example, runes, since we are always under might, better to use Strength (+5% dmg with 100% uptime), Scholar or Daredevil?
Sigil: Fire + Air or Air + Force?
2nd weapon set?

Thank you in advance.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQFAWn8lCVmiNOBGOBkmiFaCbLPNcqQzVwN4IULAMhiAA-ThRBABXp8DPdAAcBAe4BAQp6PmpEEA-e

For goreseval you want dagger mainhand for off set to spam heartseaker sub 25% health. Force and air for max damage still. Off hand is up to you.

Dagger pistol would be decent if additional mobility is needed on fights.

For gores fight you are perma revealed so revealed power is always active.

The goal is to try to stay full health and avoid the stuns to keep your damage flowing. Its hard because his animations dont appear to synch up well with the actual damage. Im still working on improving with my dodges.

Assuming you dont have to time the dodge, your normal rotation is dosge, staff 2, auto chain while you move into next dodge position. Landing the dodge takes some getting used to.

If you have your dodge buff going, and your boss is stunned like after breaking gore’s breakbar, spam the crap out of 2 to burn through your initiative since he will be moved shortly after, then use auto chain and fist flurry as fillers. Or use fist flurry and impact strike to help with breakbar.

Fhaeris.9237:

Swiftwynd.1685:

Daredevil is top physical dps in the game on goreseval.

For what its worth.

Why?

Assuming others provide the 25 might and fury, which any good comp should, it simply has the highest sustained damage in the game. The rotation is a simple dodge, staff 2, then a full auto chain while you reposition.

This combines a huge list of modifiers and strictly speaking is the highest direct damage build available. Dare devil alone adds 10% 10% and 7% mods. Then you have all the ones from crit strikes and deadly arts.

Staff 2 on a large hitbox is the most initiative efficent damage outside of low health heartseeker. You can also deal damage during situations where most other classes have to stop their damage to either dodge or use cc, since both your xodge and cc skills contribute good damage.

Laslty, invigorating precision transfers your damage into slef sustain making you very durable during a fight even without a healer.

The only reason Heralds appear to have crazy damage is Quickness uptime, but a good chronomancer can time warp every 30 seconds, and a heralds f2 buff can extend that quickness better than the herald using impossible odds, so the thief can have their better base damage buffed even higher with all of the offensive support from others.

Basically, while a thief doesnt bring offensive support, it benefits the most from offensive support provided by others rather than doubling up on say 3 revs or extra warriors or chronos.

Sigh. Daredevil is the highest damage option in the game on goreseval. If you have the ps berserker providing might and a herald for fury, daredevil staff is strictly speaking the highest damage class to bring to the fight. Dodge staff 2 and auto chain is incredibly potent. Vault for mobility and evade as needed.

IceTwenty.6957:

I’ve settled on Ele as my PvE main, and I’ve been trying to decide how exactly I want to build her for raids. I was thinking healer (Auramancer tempest), but this… this actually sounds amazing. Largely because it matches up perfectly with the only two ascended weapons I have (a scepter I crafted and The Northern Wind). I haven’t yet committed to making any gear other than that scepter, though (my ele is still in zerker exotics from forever ago and I have yet to even try to get into a raid) – but from what I’m seeing, Trailblazer’s is the way to go?

I’m in the same situation as what someone else mentioned – I don’t think I can afford the new stat items. Hell, for that matter, I don’t think I can afford a full set of ascended armor – even if I just stick to daily crafting and don’t buy ascended mats, it’s still going to take a very long time and probably drain my wallet to get a full set (I’m usually sitting around 150-175g).

The only reason I’m even thinking about raiding is that I keep hearing that for non-DPS roles, full ascended isn’t required (and I’m definitely able to get ascended weapons + trinkets). So would this build be okay with Rabid exotic armor/ascended trinkets and Trailblazer’s weapons? I’m sure I can afford to swap stats on my weapons, at the very least.

If you are strictly focused on supporting / tanking, you can certainly go with exotic Settlers, which I don’t think was too expensive to craft? Cant recall. The original build does just fine at actually healing and tanking, the issue is the damage is low, just not as low as a cleric’s build.

Its hard to say though, having attempted the second boss for a good while now, I honestly dont think there is room for anyone NOT doing maximum potential dps with the current timer limits on that boss, which frankly I think is a bit sad from a build diversity and design stand point, the fight is strictly “kill it faster, FASTER, or die.”

logan.5846:

phor.7952:

logan.5846:

Skip to 11:25 in this video to see a comparison of target dummy kill times between various classes. DH is by far the worst…

You do realize that is using PvP stats with no group buffs, some of them are using food and others aren’t, and that different classes scale differently when you add in those extra PVE stats… right?

Using that video to come to the conclusion that “DH dps is bottom tier” is naiveté.

I didn’t use the video, I used my own experience. I have a DH, Scrapper, Reaper and Herald at level 80, and of those 4, DH does the lowest DPS, and it isn’t a very close race.

Guard/DH is my main, so for a long time I simply didn’t know any better until I burned some tomes and leveled other classes. Turns out those 9k True Shots every 5 seconds pale in comparison to Revenants who can hit 3k auto attacks every half second, or Reapers who can spam 15k Gravediggers every 2 seconds, or Engies who can have 8k burns/5k bleeds/3k poison stacks all ticking away.

I might be wrong, I would love to be proven wrong, but from everything I’ve seen & played, Dragon Hunter DPS simply isn’t competitive in large scale PVE engagements.

I can’t believe you dont seem to realize you are comparing three melee build options to a range build, which as far as im aware every raid boss has need of some ranged damage?

I felt extremely relevent in the VG kill i was a part of last night as the ranged seeker wrangler and extra lightning guy in case one of the four failed.

I ran a radiance honor dh berserkwr build with longbow and scepter shield.

The shield recharge reduction trait is critically important for pushing back the seekers if they clustered. I would auto seekers with either weapons auto attack, then i would run them away from the raid while damaging the boss. The immobilize on scepter three and traited f1 was super useful, as well as the pull. The knock back with longbow is very unreliable and i hope they move it to longbow 3.

All in all i was able to significantly reduce the damage the raid took while dealing decent damage. I would go blue on split and used the elite signet after split to heal up people to full.

Daredevil is top physical dps in the game on goreseval.

For what its worth.

Trule.3549:

I’ve played the build a bit and I can see that its easy to keep up protection while in earth after overloading. I’m not sure how this works though, I can’t see any traits that give protection for 20 seconds… and it only happens in earth attunement…

The storm that applies protection in an area after completing earth overload has very strong protection application. Its the reward for completing the overload.

Id go as dar to say removal all cooldowns in CA form and adjust the abilities slightly so that each has an optimal use.

Ability one, increase area and reduce delay, this would be our targeted range heal option, consuming 10% AF per use, default best range heal.

Ability 2, reduce delay on activation and increase area. Removes condis and increases healing based on conditions removed. Terrible base heal compared to 1 but stronger by far when removing conditions. 20% of bar per use.

3rd ability would be the daze and a burst heal, and would also receive a good damage coefficient. Daze would still be 2 seconds, heal would be similat to 1.5x ability 1, but cost would be high at 30% of bar.

4 would be the most efficient healing option but would require a channel and melee range, so plenty of counterplay in pvp. It would consume 40% of the bar but would be our best burst healing and efficient healing option due to its limitations.

5 would now work while moving and would be our best offensive tool while in CAF. It would receive a damage increase and it would also cost 40% of the bar, but like ability 4 it would have a channel and only work in melee.

As far the rate of gain, i would set the default to 20 seconds to go from 0 to full, with healing and damage increasing the rate of gain. Some how it would need to be balanced to reward constant and significant healing, so that it could be useful for multiple builds, rewarsing dps buils or heavy healing power builds.

CAF would not need a time gated duration for staying in it, and it would not need a cooldown either, as the recharge is now effectively doubled to 20 seconds, but could theoretically be lowered to below 10 seconds if the druid is successfully healing or dpsing effectively.

Alrighty just spent 7 hours on Vale Guardian again with this build, and all I can say is D<QALWDMALMFALD ANET, fix your Trailblazer ascended recipe mystic forge bug please!

Trailblazer will offer significantly more damage than my original build, and I’m so desperate I might just make a full exotic set to hold me out until they finally fix it.

That said, it is nice to also be able to play back up healer, and I will miss that aspect of Settlers, but we’re simply not hitting our damage thresholds we need with my group, and I know my lack of damage is a big part of that.

The 25% base effectiveness increase on your auto attacks while in a recharging attunement would also work amazingly well for scepter condi builds in fire and earth, because it would function like the necro scepter trait. It would increase the base durations by 25% which could then be increased potentially up to 100% condition duration. Flame strike would have a potential of 7.5 second burns applied once every 1.5 seconds, and Stone Shards would apply 3x 15s bleeds every 1.9 seconds.

This would be amazing for condi tank tempest

Id love it if Harmonious Conduit was changed to:

Increase the overall potency of abilities without recharge timers by 25% while in an Attunement that is Recharging. Overload recharge reduced to 15 seconds.

Move the stability to a baseline minor.

This would offer the camping builds some increased potency on their auto attacks, increading healing, damage, and condi duration, while remaining in an attunement that is recharging after an overload.

I would then add its old effect to Lucid Singularity to have a clear damage option, but i would have it add 10% damage and condition damage so that it works well as a condi build offense tool as well, and increase the duration to 10 seconds.

Nivik.2961:

Just looking at the stats on this set up; is this not the “tailor made” perfect set up for an auramancer support tank. Boon duration, tuffness, vitality, and healing power…and to boot the name on this ascended set is Maklain’s minstrel insignia….I feel like Karl is trying to help us out here ; )

What I’m seeing is increased uptime of 40% damage mitigation for your allies with added uptime of regen vigor and might(boons we share in abundance with aurashare). Aura’s are going to heal significantly with the healing power as well. Then not to mention obviously the mandatory tuffness and vitality stats.

I don’t have a lot of experience in the raid and am looking to fill a support role with my auramancer, does this seem viable guys?

I certainly would not recommend this sadly, as losing the dps of one party member really cannot be made up by just the boon duration and healing alone. Ive tried a very tanky build with healing and some condi damage and it just didnt feel like it contributed enough considering how weak the actual first boss’s damage is. Im going to switch over to full trailblazer when they fix it.

obstinate giraffe.9276:

I played this build as the tank for the first boss. Like Swift said, it works too well — I feel like I’m sacrificing DPS with the settler’s armour. I’m considering swapping it out for dire, which will lower my toughness, add vitality, and add more sweet, sweet condition damage. The healing is nice, but certainly not necessary.

The shield is overkill too. I found myself swapping it out for asura technobabble to help stun the boss.

I’d strongly recommend waiting for Trailblazer’s insignia/inscriptions to be fixed in the mystic forge to change any ascended and use that stat combo on everything.

Being able to get to 100% condition duration for bleeding and burning, along with rune of Undead to convert all that extra toughness into condi damage, gives you ridiculously good condi damage potential while only really losing some healing power and a tiny bit of toughness.

I am both happy and sad to report that my build worked well. In fact too well. I took virtually no damage during the raid to a point of wishing i could simply deal more condi damage. I think the base healing withiut healing power will likely be more than sufficient for the firdt boss at least.

Im going to switch my ascended gear over to trailblazer tomorrow if possible.

Koviko.3248:

Armor? So Toughness isn’t a factor?

Its weird in gw2. I think armor value is the total combined stats for defense from armor and toughness. Basically, highest total defensive stats is what determine aggro on first boss