Guild Wars 2

Is there the potential for a WvW focused guild to speed up the progression on Guild Arena Upgrade faster than the anticipated ‘2 months’?

This same concept could apply to other areas as well.

Agreed, if possible could we have WvW guild missions perhaps greatly facilitate the progress on the Arena?

2 months is just so long, even a month would be much more bearable!

On a different note, did everyone watch that BogOtter Video in full? The interview had some much needed information on rewards and lockouts.

My understanding is as follows:

- Bosses have individual rare loot tied to them, however there will be a token system where if you are ‘unlucky’ you can at least get tokens to purchase the rare piece from a vendor. The tokens sound like they are universal, however the unique loot for each boss is tied to actually killing the boss. Meaning you can’t just grind tokens on the first boss and buy the unique loot from the other bosses, you have to kill each one at least once to unlock its vendor tab (presuming its a separate tab).

- Legendary Armor is a full 6-piece set, the full set takes roughly the same amount of gold as crafting a single legendary weapon. You do NOT need 6 gifts of exploration, the gift system for the legendary armor will be created through what sounds like a mix of raid and Magumma activities.

- Lockouts work based on the weekly chest and the ‘Raid Leader Instance’. Given the Weekly lockout chest tied to each encounter, the entire instance is based on the leader’s progression. If you have already killed a boss that the raid leader has not killed yet, you simply won’t get the reward from the boss when it goes down. So lockouts can exist in this fashion, which is good, because raiders can join other raiders regardless of their own progression, and not have the really upsetting ‘WoW Lockouts’ where you could end up losing out on loot if you joined a raid mid-progression.

Windsagio.1340:

Apparently my role on this forum is to be the broken record.

The Dev post that started this brouhaha makes no sense from start to finish. It can’t be true without a sizable change to how ascended gear works or without using infusions in some way.

Remember when the Devs though Triple Trouble would take months to take down?

This is not really all that different. Yes, it will be harder, but there’s no way they can really get down the playerbase skill level and make a statement saying ‘YOU GONNA NEED FULL ASCENDED FOR THE LAST BOSS!’ without it actually being demonstrated.

This is also their First Raid, it’s kind of like that guy who really wants to show you something but you are only mildly interested so you don’t really want to see it now but later, but he keeps insisting you should come see it now.

Lachanche.6859:

Draknar.5748:

Wow some serious knee-jerk here. At no point did anyone say it was required.

the dev litterally just said thaton twitter. before retconning it on reddit.

“Earlier wing bosses can prob be killed by top tier players in mix of asc/ex. Last boss should be full asc.”

The bolded are not absolutes. I am almost certain now that the devs only tested the content under full ascended raiders, however player skill and the ‘optimization of compositions and strategy’ can reduce that requirement.

I am going to wager that at some point the Last Boss in that raid will be killed by raiders in full Exotic, just because they can. Likely won’t happen until everything gets down to a science though, even for top tier raiders.

Wetpaw.3487:

Answers fastforward 2:20
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28Pywu-B14A

Man, they are really hyping it up.

We will see shortly, however they noted the first boss will be capable of being defeated in full exotic (for really skilled players) so I can imagine we have until early 2015 when the next wing opens up to get more ascended items, should we need them still.

Do they really have these encounters so tightly tuned?

Kevan.8912:

vertical progression doesn’t mean new tier of gear.
Means that your char become in some way more powerful than in the past.
And if a player who has played XXhrs has access to something that another with Xhrs can’t access, imho is a vertical progression.

Masteries are definitely a grind AND vert.progression, as they prevent me from entering certain parts of maps.
You just wouldn’t call masteries a vertical progression because there’s not a number such as stats or dps? It’s the same.
There’s an improvement in something can be a parameter, a simple number like agony resistance..or a full set of new armor with better stats…or a set of skills o something similar like masteries.

That’s…really pushing it to attribute Vertical Progression to Masteries. It’s borderline don’t get me wrong, but there’s a difference between the vertical progression that was leveling from level 1 to 80, and the new mastery system focused on end-game progression for level 80s once they hit max level.

Certainly, there are actual places and likely impossible encounters that can’t be reached or done without leveling up a mastery. That kind of content, essentially requires vertical progression in the sense that the task at hand is impossible to do without earning these added capabilities to your character. Much like how you can’t just stroll into Orr at level 1, or even come close to the region.

However, the Mastery System is different that it is offering these capabilities which do not directly improve your character in every single situation. Meaning whereas something like numbers are literally preventing you from fulfilling the objective until you get the next piece of gear, gliding is not used in situations that it can’t be used. It’s a progression only meaningful in a small set of the game, and only required in the smallest set of that small set.

I would put it in-between Reputation Grinding for WoW, of which some of the earlier reputations were required for certain items for raiding and actual Vertical progression that will block you 100% of the time if you do not meet certain requirements. Masteries are an odd blend.

The upside to the GW2 Mastery System compared to past systems using something like this is that many of the Magumma Masteries can be progressed (or grinded if you want to think like that) by doing just about everything in the Magumma Jungle. WoW was awful in that Reputation was grinded with what started out as a few same quests for days before the higher reputations would give you more quests, but they had to be repeated daily. …Ugh, Netherwing farming….
/shudders

See?

We nitpicked the tweet a bit harshly. Be sure to know the differences between absolutes and variable words folks!

Judge Banks.9018:

We could always revisit this thread for a good laugh or ten.

I love being right, all the time, every time.

Sure, unless the devs are underestimating player skill which has happened pretty consistently.

I remember, I believe it was in WoW, that when designing the most difficult content the testing would involve a lot of increasing the numbers and making things more difficult to succeed. However, once the encounter was not able to be beaten even by the creators after the latest attempts, they appended more numbers and then shipped the content out.

Players are the best stress testers of any game, they will find out the smallest bugs and glitches and environmental defects and exploit them, they will come up with strategies and minor adjustments not even content creators would imagine. To even consider Player Skill in the equation amounts to creating content you, and someone better than you, quite possibly are on the lower end of the range of skills out there.

I think the devs are underestimating us greatly, unless the ascended items are explicitly and mechanically superior due to some outside influence affecting them and not exotic gear. I doubt that kind of thing would happen, we will see.

Mmm, this tweet is intentionally worded to be controversial.

There’s no absolutes in it at all, rather it suggests instead that the raid will have progressively harder encounters that could require things above exotic.

It paints the raid designers as confident really, this is more of a challenge to us to beat the content as fast as possible, perhaps without every person in the raid with full exotics.

Gonna be interesting to say the least, we shouldn’t nitpick too hard into it.

Man! Aren’t we glad they put in that Salvage change?

Also god-speed, the hours you will be nitpicking for named exotics will be something else.

You know secretly Rangers were hoping for a title like this in the SPvP forums…

You gonna make them hug each other and celebrate now.

Ohoni.6057:

I think I made my case, and so far you’ve only helped me to reinforce it, so I don’t know what I could really add.

Proof by Assertion and Circular Reasoning! Nice way to end that horrendously incorrect analogy but you can do better-

Ohoni.6057:

Better, but still unnecessarily cruel. If you genuinely care about that person being happy (which clearly you do not), then you would offer them something that was fair to them, a method that is less efficient than the baseline method, but still one that is reasonable to pursue.

Oh, nice ad-hominem jab there. I have been giving you far more respect in this discourse than most of the posters here yet only explicitly in the last post you made you actually referred to me in your quotes. Nor have you really quoted other players fairly as well, which paints you the one who cares less for other players treating us all one in the same. I care for other players and this game far more than you realize, and your objections to my compromise have no weight on whether or not the compromise is in good faith.

I have laid out my take on the compromise for exclusive rewards, and I simply do not agree that you have any counter-points against it aside from what you yourself think it is unfair, thus justifying it as unfair.

Ohoni.6057:

Obviously. It’s less effort, which is why we all agree that the reward should be less, but it’s not insignificant effort, so the reward should not be insignificant.

The reward is the same at the end! Your own statement here contradicts itself! They get the same legendary armor going the easier but longer route! It is NOT a lesser reward it’s the SAME REWARD at the end! Both roads lead to the same conclusion!

Ohoni.6057:

This is true, but within the context of his previous statements it is obvious that he intended to reference the BLTC, a point which he could have, but did not dispute in his follow-up to my comments. There is nothing wrong with addressing prior statements by someone, so long as those statements are in proper context. There was nothing remotely improper about the paragraph you quoted.

But you can’t, much like how Skitz can get emotionally charged and attack you based on your post history and agenda in an attempt to misrepresent or exaggerate your arguments (though if you agree with his assessment of you by all means but that’s up to you). Regardless, you take each post on its own, and only when it references a previous post/argument can you make that kind of call. If he had said something along the lines of ‘90% of rewards and 95% of skins are earned through a gold grind, including BLTC skins!’ could you have said what you said. But you didn’t, you played the strawman no differently than many of the posters here.

….The reality of all this is, we’ve been patient for a while now. It’s…admirable to keep to your side at all costs, but you have repetitively continued to dismiss or ignore our arguments and distort them, whereas when we inform you that you are doing the same thing, you suggest that your posts were not at all flawed. The sheer fact you simply linked the Hazing video and ‘The evidence speaks for itself’ when it’s focus has no bearing whatsoever on Raiding, yet you continue to support the notion that it is the same thing.

It’s insulting to intelligence and common sense for everyone here. You have not been sincere at all, and your motive and agenda have been made crystal clear for everyone here:

You do not want exclusivity in rewards in any real form. The absolute worst part about it all is that you never spoke up to this extent, even while exclusive rewards were being doled out. That means either you never really put much thought into it until Legendary Armor was announced, or you aren’t really interested in stopping exclusivity but just having Legendary Armor available in a part of the game you enjoy.

All of this under the ruse of being for the majority of players…

Personally, meaning that what I am about to say next has no real factual bearing and could be considered fallacy if I were to state it as such. But you are just as bad as elitists, just as selfish for taking such a stance and likely not to change. My aspirations were to try to convince you that the exclusivity is a good thing, a needed thing, and that your standpoint of removing exclusivity was absolutely wrong. I extended many bridges, and you burned them all down with the presumption that you have ‘defeated’ my arguments which you have not, instead parroting old arguments in an endless circle.

Ultimately, I expect Legendary Armor to release to the raid as such, and I am hoping for other exclusive Legendary Armor to crop up in other game-modes as well. This likely means you are not going to like it, and if you were to dislike it to the point where you would quit the game over a couple of skins…at this point now I can’t see myself being sad about it.

Good luck regardless Ohoni.

Ohoni.6057:

That is the expected response.

You do realize you aren’t countering my point at all by repeating this line, right? Could you at least try, or will you take back the comparison argument between hazing and raiding unless you provide more substance?

Ohoni.6057:

Any method that takes an unreasonable amount of time is unreasonable. it’s designed to be cruel, to offer hope in an unattainable form. It’s like if a poor person is being held for a crime and they offer bail, but it’s like a million dollars bail. Yes, it’s an alternative, but not one they’re intended to actually collect on, it’s one meant to taunt them. any alternative offer needs to be at least within the realm of an attainable goal.

It’s designed to be fair, not cruel, and that analogy is misleading at best. The player who willingly gives up taking one much more difficult avenue towards a reward can take a much more slower route. It is better than being outright exclusive towards the former, under your ideals.

Ohoni.6057:

Fighting the Vinewrath is not Silverwaste farming, it IS effort by any reasonable definition.

And is it effort when compared to doing a raid? Does it seem to measure in the same quality of effort as raiders? That’s the point you need to address. In case you want to know my position on effort…

Ohoni.6057:

Why? It would be 1.5-2x the amount of time and effort spent, on a fully engaged activity, why should that not be sufficient? I think you have an overly inflated view of the value of raiding relative to other activities if you think getting the rewards in half the time is not sufficient.

…We can go back in this very same thread and mark off what additional effort and restrictions are imposed on Raiders to even attempt the raid compared to the threshold required for Silverwastes. I will tell you right now the impression that if a player from the Silverwastes only considers doubling-down on his/her efforts to ‘raid’, they are going to be in for a world of surprise. I think even the Magumma Jungle won’t be so forgiving.

Of course you can argue that I should be more specific, and I can if you want.

Ohoni.6057:

Sykper, Devata has been very clear that his personal crusade is entirely against the gem store (at least as a source of skins). He is as determined against that as I have been against raid exclusives. He may not have mentioned it in that specific posts but he’d mentioned it plenty of times in the past and I’m sure if you’d asked him he would be quite open about it. When he says “grinding for gold” he isn’t talking about using it to buy standard items, he’s talking about using to to buy BLTC skins. I was not using a straw man, I was addressing the specific points he had been making.

We can argue whether or not he meant this for a while, but the point stands that at that time during the discussion, he never strictly mentioned BLTC skins within the post. And made a position that very clearly, perhaps even a slight exaggeration as I would have to tally every skin in the game, to see if there’s a 90%+ amount of them obtainable through gold. You assumed he meant BLTC, but your response at that time should have instead targetted his argument about the currency rather than his own personal agenda.

Ohoni.6057:

Yes. It’s predicated on the idea that it is harder and more likely to fail than most content. The most praised raids (by raiders) are the ones that are most punishing to the psyche.

“Punishing to the psyche”? That’s greater than a hyperbole at this point, raiders aren’t actually being mentally tortured by their colleagues if they don’t live up to their expectations, nor are they under any sort of physical stress that is typically involved with hazing. You are grasping at straws trying to make this comparison work, and you won’t find any correlation.

Ohoni.6057:

That’s still preposterous.

But its definitely a solution, one that caters strictly to players who are willing to put the time into it. You aren’t going to get a better compromise on the rewards than this, although at this point the exercise is fruitless as I don’t believe Arenanet would make such rewards feasible in that manner anyways. Is it really so unsatisfactory compared to what is going to happen anyways?

Ohoni.6057:

I must have used the word “effort” at least a hundred times in this thread, it has ALWAYS been a part of the process. I have never advocated offering the rewards via log-in, or any other super-casual methods, it would always involve active engagement in the content. Any use of time has merely been as an average assumption, that if you run the content regularly then it should take about X amount of time to earn the reward.

It’s possible you could have used the word effort itself, but we have had pages of evidence suggesting what you define as ‘effort’ versus what we defined as ‘effort’ are quite different. Which brings us to…

Ohoni.6057:

On principle, but I don’t put raid content as being exponentially more deserving than other types of content. The alternate paths would not be picking daisies, they would be active combat and moderately challenging situations, just not raiding, so while it would be fair for them to pay out at a slower pace than raiding, it should not be by as huge a difference as some have insisted.

You originally suggested in our hypothetical situation about Raiding versus Silverwaste Farming some time ago where the raider would get the raiding reward after around 40 hours, and I am quoting you now:

“If that’s the case, then someone doing the Vinewrath, to completion, could perhaps expect to earn it in 50 daily runs, taking a total of maybe 50-70 hours and with possibilities of failure along the way. Now keep in mind, this would include some slight changes to how the map gets rewarded, it would require that the player run the entire event chain from near the beginning, not just map in right as the VW starts and kill it, that would, if anything, offer a significantly lesser amount of reward, and I believe the daily requirement would help limit the grind aspect. But yeah, about 50 kills would be good.”

The ‘slower’ pace you have suggested just from this example is unreasonably fast and efficient and undermines the raid content in question. It is so unbelievably out of touch I almost fell out of my seat when I first read it. There shouldn’t even be a remote comparison in earning the ‘reward for effort and time’ between something so routinely mindless versus the potentially hardest content GW2 has seen yet.

Ohoni.6057:

Which I have not done.

~Time-Warp to early September, to talking about how raids were being exclusive…~

Devata wrote – “Just ast 90 % of the rewards, and 95% of the best looking rewards are now locked behind a gold-grind.”

Ohoni wrote in response – “Pleeeeeeeeeeease stop talking about Gem store items as if they are in-game content. They are cash purchases. Every one of them is a cash purchase. You might be choosing to grind for gold rather than spending cash yourself, but ultimately that item is being purchased with cash, and if you aren’t doing it then someone else has. Stop talking about them as if they intend for players to be grinding for gold to afford them, rather than that just being a secondary method of acquiring them for players too cheap to pay in cash themselves.

The gem store will NEVER be balanced against actual gameplay, and no amount of complaining will ever change that." (Plus some stuff about HoT armor sets that isn’t quite relevant)

Where did he ever mention Gem Store items? The context of his preposition was that an extreme majority of the skins in this game could be earned through gold yet you attack his point by assuming he attributed a lot of the rewards to Gem Store. This is one of the earliest instances of your strawman, but I can keep going if you prefer. There’s a lot to go through…

Ohoni.6057:

As any reasonable person would expect given the venue and the nature of the topics. That does not mean that it’s reflective of the overall playerbase, just that it’s reflective of some portion of the players who care about those issues.

Sure, believe what you will.

Ohoni.6057:

Well, if the theory holds, the more unpleasant the initiation period (ie the attunement process and multiple failures before completing the raid), the more indoctrinated the belief that this is a virtuous cycle, that the effort was well worth it, that it was more good than harm, and that others should be subjected to the process. It’s quite fascinating, really. Someone could probably write a thesis on the subject.

False Equivalence.

Nothing you just described above is raiding, you have falsely tried to equate the two by pushing variables of raiding into the same statement describing what the variables of hazing is. There is no comparison here. Have you ever really raided?

Ohoni.6057:

Well, if I recall the “compromise” offer was that it might take a month or so to get it via raids, and like 2-3 years to get it via alternate means. That was never going to be a starter. Others suggested that items might be exclusive for a period of 1-6 months, which is far more reasonable, and then be available for everyone else. I think if you’re going to hard lock the exclusivity period then the items should be relatively easy to earn, while if you only make them more time consuming to earn then they can involve a lot more effort. My point is, they shouldn’t say “you can’t even begin working on them for six months, and then once it becomes available it would take another six months to earn.” If the method itself takes six months then you should be able to get started immediately.

But no, I’ve always been in favor of that method as a compromise, so long as the time and effort required for the alternative is a fair one, and not some cruel joke.

TBF, my solution was more like 12-18 months rather than 24+ months. You also mentioned ‘effort’ which has been devoid in your arguments up till now which have mainly been all about the amount of time invested in the game should the rewards be kitten -generalized on regardless of the content. If you intend to actually put in effort as a variable in the equation, the natural shift is that given the same amount of time invested, content that is harder rewards more. Do you disagree?

Ohoni.6057:

In what sense?

As in you, yourself, creating strawmans yet not reflecting on those while pursuing other opposing strawmans.

Ohoni.6057:

I’m not going to tally posters, but I feel fairly secure that there haven’t been even a hundred unique posters on this specific line of discussion, and of those at least 4-10 of them were generally supportive or ambivalent to the idea of raid-alternative methods of obtaining these items. But even so, a thousand people would still be a drop in the bucket compared to the people that play the game, and in no way statistically representative of them.

Strictly on the forums, between this thread, the Raid CDI, the Character Progression Horizontial CDI, SPvP CDI, all speak about needing exclusive rewards behind certain content. I rather not tally the thousands of posts, but I can easily presume well over 100 posters just on the forums have contributed. And as I stated, many have guilds, friends, colleagues in game who might not have a vested interest in going to the official forums, but to continue the discourse that your position is even a major minority would be disingenuous.

Ohoni.6057:

Yes, that is the expected response.

Elaborate on what you mean by this.

Ohoni.6057:

And nothing anyone else has said has contributed towards an actual compromise either, just “we get what we want, and you don’t.” Neither side is willing to compromise on this one, the baby cannot be split, so in the end, it comes down to only one side getting what they want. So far, that’s your side, so be happy! Unless of course it turns out that not a lot of people actually want to raid, in which case ANet will have to do something about that.

Prior to any of the discourse with concern to compromises there was talk about homogeneralizing the rewards through things like tokens or achievements that allowed non-raiders to earn their legendary armor eventually but at a much slower rate than raiders. That was probably the closest thing to a compromise from us that you denied since the amount of time to invest would be much too long, do you still feel that way now?

Ohoni.6057:

I promise you this, very solemnly. I will stop labeling arguments as straw men the very instant people stop using straw man arguments. I swear it. As soon as people stop saying things like “you just want to give [max quality rewards] for doing [activity that has no actual gameplay element to it],” I’ll stop pointing out how that is never anything I asked for, would support, or would necessarily flow from anything I have supported. If anyone is beating that one to death, it is not me, as I’m just pointing out when it occurs. If you’d like me to stop pointing it out, stop straw men from appearing.

That’s fine and all, but know that the same applies to you as well.

Ohoni.6057:

Well, a couple dozen people out of hundreds of thousands, but sure, if you want to attribute significance to that, I can’t stop you.

I would rate it more like hundreds of people to hundreds of thousands of players as the comparison, but that’s fine.

Ohoni.6057:

Did you watch the video? I got the impression you didn’t watch the video, or the comparisons would be self-evident. It’s only 4 minutes.

Did you? You are really attempting to treat raiders like they are psychologically hurting themselves to enjoy challenging content. There is no comparable point to make, and you are insane to think otherwise. There’s no cognitive dissonance with wanting to better yourself at playing a game or at anything in life and associating those with stress, that’s natural human condition.

Ohoni.6057:

I did watch that video. It was basically just trying to support the idea that raiding and raid-exclusive rewards are a positive thing for the GW2 community. Unsurprisingly, I disagree.

And unsurprising just because you disagree doesn’t make it wrong. Nothing you have said for pages now has truly contributed in any significant way for any sort of compromise (of which the word you didn’t really know the true meaning of until the definition had to be plainly established in this thread) towards the reward structures. And everything you have said shows a lack of understanding of basic reward structure to encouraging game longevity, to encouraging gamer entertainment.

And the worst part of it all is that you will still circle back to the same points as if they were an absolute truth (which we have proven again and again to be false) or mark some example we list as a Strawman (You have beaten that horse to death, quite a few examples listed were not nearly as strawman as the proclamations you believe will happen if the Raids are as dire and challenging to players as you think they will be).

I am not sure how there is any way to say that everything you have said up to now is wrong in a nice fashion. But if there is any single consistent trend in this thread, it’s that a vast vocal majority of players on the forums will agree with that sentiment. And I am fairly certain these vast amounts of vocal players can speak for their friends or guildmates or others.

Ohoni.6057:

I just saw an interesting video that I think has a lot to do with raiding, it’s a D-News video on Fraternity hazing:

You just tried to link Raiding in MMOs to Hazing. The absurdity of such a comparison is almost breathtaking, to compare an already established entertaining end-game component found in many MMOs to an often problematic social paradigm that has resulted in accidents and even suicides.

…and ironically matches up quite well to the video’s points I linked earlier. Please go watch that video, and stop trying to push such false statements about raiding to the public. It’s disheartening that you would even make such a statement.

Not certain if this had been linked yet, but it has relevance to the multi-page discussion on the previously focused topic.

So right. Now that we have shifted the focus slightly, let’s talk about ‘Tanking’ and ‘Healing’ for a bit.

I can’t speak from the healing perspective, however I was involved in much of the end-game from towards the end of Vanilla WoW to the end of WotLK hard-mode playing both DPS and Tank.

I can confirm everyone’s fear here of the problems with ‘Finding a Good Healer’ or ‘Finding a Good Tank’. If I wanted to play Damage, I expected to wait like a peasant. If I played Tank, as soon as I announced ‘LFG Kara Warrior Tank’ there would be a flood of whispers in my chat like I was royalty (Even though people in BC liked Paladins more because Consecreation was a thing).

The problem with Tanking though, was although the job entailed a much stronger presence in a raid and held more responsibility, performing the job was…more or less sitting in a spot. Or perhaps turning the boss, keep the adds on you, keep threat as high as possible. As a tank, I realized my job wasn’t quite killing the boss as much as keeping it from its killers. Sometimes playing the off-tank felt more rewarding because off-tanking might entail some running around and controlling mobs here and there, putting them into corners for our damage to kill.

I don’t know if its the same for Healing, but the job was boring, despite the fact that when Tank loot dropped I was guaranteed it more or less.

The damage side had more of a raider vibe, and sometimes it turned into a competition where my friends would try to out-damage each other on a boss which would show up on the damage meters we had running. If you died playing damage, the encounter could very well succeed still though it was sort of a demerit on your damage that fight and we would laugh at how you died. The atmosphere for playing damage was so much more fun than playing a tank, where calling cooldowns for certain boss actions would be life or death, yet the numbers you pumped out as a tank were abysmal.

Now, in GW2 we got a glimpse on what the raids would require. Yes, so far we have gotten hints that players will end up needing to swap traits and likely gear around to fill the role requirements. Control is more or less having someone running a substantial amount of CC in their build rather than optimizing for damage, and perhaps likely tankier gear to absorb a lot of hits. Support sounds to me like a role requiring key boon application (like a well-timed protection) and additional sustain for your group’s sustain. There may be a required amount of healing power for what profession/build you are running to fit that Role.

All this being said, GW2 combat is so substantially different that I don’t believe it would turn into something completely uninteresting to play a control or support role. ‘Threat’ for tanking is weird in this game, and I doubt there will be a true tank role, just a guy doing enhanced CC at certain phases and taking a mechanic to the face rather than letting his backline zerker/condition allies go down. ‘Healing’ was as far as I know, just straight up keeping allies alive with healing and if there was downtime, auto-attack to preserve cooldowns and mana. Support should be more active, given how many abilities with support capabilities have actual mechanics tied to them. If playing a Control or a Support is actually fun rather than straight up damage, then these fears will go away.

Finally, as an added point, there is a huge difference between what a Tank’s damage would push out in WoW, versus what a Control player would theoretically push out in a raid. Tanks would do something like 10-20% of a damage player, and a healer (given auto-attacking) would be even less. Control and Support players shouldn’t be doing such an extremely low amount of damage in HoT, many stat combos have a damage stat associated after all.

I’ll be toying around in Berserker, likely with the updated Rifle and whatnot.

But if there’s a build I can make within the beta character’s environment I’ll do some testing on numbers and provide some feedback.

Jekkt.6045:

Sykper.6583:

Jekkt.6045:

Sykper.6583:

Chokolata.1870:

What made DD Ele OP was the combined effort of damage and sustain. They decided to nerf the might stacking and damage part. They probably want it to remain a bruiser and a bunker but not dish out so much damage.

If you want a damage Ele, I suppose going for the scepter fresh air build is the way to go.

^^ This. Actually would be refreshing to see Fresh Air back in the meta once again.

fresh air was never meta. it would be refreshing to see it in the meta for the first time ever.

Huh? Could have sworn I saw it being run mid-2013, think it was around the Aetherblade Hideout in LA times…

…Blargh, I’ll just take your word for it and agree with the prospect of Fresh Air being in the Meta.

people tried to run it, one of them was zoose. it was terrible and suddenly there were no elementalists in any tournaments for around a year, 99% of queue matches were 0 eles in both teams and IF you played fresh air ele you got flamed for it. good old times /sarcasm

Ah, memories flooded in now when you mentioned zoose, he made a youtube video on the build back then. I was in and out of SPvP at that time so yea, makes sense.

Didn’t he stop playing?

Jekkt.6045:

Sykper.6583:

Chokolata.1870:

What made DD Ele OP was the combined effort of damage and sustain. They decided to nerf the might stacking and damage part. They probably want it to remain a bruiser and a bunker but not dish out so much damage.

If you want a damage Ele, I suppose going for the scepter fresh air build is the way to go.

^^ This. Actually would be refreshing to see Fresh Air back in the meta once again.

fresh air was never meta. it would be refreshing to see it in the meta for the first time ever.

Huh? Could have sworn I saw it being run mid-2013, think it was around the Aetherblade Hideout in LA times…

…Blargh, I’ll just take your word for it and agree with the prospect of Fresh Air being in the Meta.

Chokolata.1870:

What made DD Ele OP was the combined effort of damage and sustain. They decided to nerf the might stacking and damage part. They probably want it to remain a bruiser and a bunker but not dish out so much damage.

If you want a damage Ele, I suppose going for the scepter fresh air build is the way to go.

^^ This. Actually would be refreshing to see Fresh Air back in the meta once again.

You know, I am going to miss these kinds of threads about Rampage.

I mean, eventually people figure out how to anticipate it, mitigate it, and so forth and stop complaining about it. The only profession that I can think of that truly has any sort of difficulties handling Rampage would end up being Necromancers, but Warrior versus Necromancer has always been…more or less build to build in the Warrior’s favor.

And Stance immunity complaints are so last year.

EotM is taking the players you don’t want on your side in WvW. It’s doing its job, let it be.

As for the WvW populations, that’s a whole other issue that will hopefully be addressed as HoT rolls out.

Nerf doesn’t impact Mesmers in SPvP.

So I am confused why there’s a complaint in this forum about it.

Depends on how much the encounters strictly require stats and builds over skill level.

Even now there are plenty of full zerk runs having ‘slightly slower’ individuals who bring the runs to a halt. Skill could be the bigger factor in Raids as well, and will likely be the factor if Arenanet wants a majority of the professions to be able to do the roles somewhat fairly.

Eventually an optimal meta will form, but only when the encounters are completely figured out. That probably won’t happen for months though, and given the extended requirement of 10 people rather than 5, raiders will end up needing to wait for longer trying to get that super optimal group (of which they don’t even know if other raiders are capable skill-wise) rather than getting the 2nd best and going into the raid sooner.

It’ll be interesting to see though, leveling an 80 plus getting them exotically geared to fill a role isn’t particularly hard, unlike in other MMOs where it was much slower but you had to go through raid tiers…

Burning Application nerfed.
Cantrip Might gains nerfed.

What more do you want that wouldn’t completely gut D/D? These changes still make D/D a thing, but not overwhelming.

If the rifle changes are as good as I hope they will be…

We might start seeing Berserker Rifle Warriors, which coincidentally get a ‘flaming’ effect in the same manner as The Predator.

I see what you are doing there.

NikeEU.7690:

I have more fun when I do more damage, so I like the change.

It’s the simple things…

:P

Hey guys…

What are our ridiculous defense mechanics?

ghoust.8591:

What is perfect there when war try to hold point and mesmer thief teleport on high ground and hit you, you run to him till you come you will be half hp, they jump down you jump they teleport up again.Is it war best boon share class no, is best bunker no, is it best dps no, best in mobility no,… yes war is best in 1 thing vitality.

So, presuming ‘high ground’ here, talking something like Temple of the Silent Storm Gate (northern ledge or portal distance wise, east or west ledges where Ferocities spawn) or Altar (North ledge). Essentially a position off point where both the Mesmer and Thief can range you from.

So, the best method to handle ranged pressure would be LoS, meaning you hop off point to get behind something or get under them, force them to waste time coming down. They can’t contest the point without actually being down there, and you aren’t restricted to staying on the point unless they attempt to take it. Stop eating free hits.

When either one comes down, or both come down, this is where things get complicated. Mesmer + Thief is an extremely rough match-up for anyone 1v2, except for a well played D/D ele and even then a slip-up will have that ele dead before a stunbreak can happen. Worst case scenario the thief is the one sticking to you on point while the mesmer keeps up clones and pelts you with fun things.

If you are playing raw damage, meaning AxSh/GS, you need to down that thief as soon as it engages, you might need a bit of luck to pull off the damage burst coupled with a Quickness proc. More than likely the thief will try blind-spam given he knows you are running with a GS around, this might involve a pre-emptive Berserker Stance plus some other factors. If the thief backs off, flip to shield and mitigate for maybe another 8 seconds, ultimately if you do not down the thief and turn this more in your favor as soon as they both engage…you will have to leave point. This isn’t your match-up to win in most instances.

If you are playing some variance of a tanky bow build, Combustive Shot is going to keep enough pressure on point to give you more freedom to move off the point. Even in a power build the burning just melts the likely squishy builds the mesmer and thief would be running. You will have quite a bit more survival capabilities as well, and you WILL be making pings either for someone to come help you (you can definitely long enough for someone to come assist) or telling your team to hit something else like a decap + secondary objective.

Last thing, in either instance, you do NOT want to get downed and die. If you lose the point, its better than +5 points and a respawn timer plus a run-back.

Eh, I wouldn’t say we are out of the meta. If some relative power were taken from…certain other builds on certain other professions then Warriors would probably be close to how we were before.

Though, to be honest with the current state of SPvP, the warriors who are really good will still dominate their Conquest role perfectly well. Warriors are still a staple of many a pro-team, because one of their biggest strengths is in a 2v2+ fight.

In other words, now’s a GREAT time as a warrior to play one.

Astralporing.1957:

Devata.6589:

You don’t design a system (a game, or really any system) around the exceptions, you design it around the average.

Agreed. And raiders are an exception, not an average.

Dungeoneers are an exception. SPvPers are an exception. WvWers are an exception- well you catch my drift.

We don’t know how many players will turn raider, nor do we have any specifics on how many players will be raiding as well as farming, or RPing in Divinity’s Reach, etc.

Don’t spin the argument here, you know exactly what Devata was referring to in this context.

Mooncow.6847:

Robert Gee.9246:

Jzaku.9765:

I feel that you’ve missed the point a little, it’s ok for some mechanics to have both a cost and cooldown, but this is the defining mechanic of the specialization.

The fact that its the defining mechanic of the specialization didn’t really have any bearing on the decision to make this skill have the costs it does. The adrenaline cost is there to require a build up and the recharge is there to provide some downtime.

Mooncow.6847:

Second, can a dev please expand on gun flame? Can you elaborate on the absolute best case scenario? If everything goes right what is the maximum targets I can hit?

The explosion hits 5 targets. If you don’t have the piercing trait you get 5 maximum targets. If you do have the trait it will hit 5 targets from the initial explosion plus 4 more from the piercing bullet.

Awesome! I’m so glad to hear this, thought it could only hit 5 people even with piercing. Thank you for the info and for making it still able to hit lots of targets. Thought it had been nerfed to the ground

A shot that gets reflected by an ambient wall of reflection hits no one.

A shot that hits 1 target at least by moving your position just a bit is better.

Especially when the first hit explodes.

This current rendition is a more ‘consistent’ threat rather than overpowered in some instances while negligible in others.

Robert Gee.9246:

Mooncow.6847:

Second, can a dev please expand on gun flame? Can you elaborate on the absolute best case scenario? If everything goes right what is the maximum targets I can hit?

The explosion hits 5 targets. If you don’t have the piercing trait you get 5 maximum targets. If you do have the trait it will hit 5 targets from the initial explosion plus 4 more from the piercing bullet.

Excellent. Thanks for the info! Rifle gets substantially better to use while in Berserk now!

Black Box.9312:

Sykper.6583:

However. Something to not about Dragonhunter is that the feedback concerning the spec should be catered strictly towards making that line useful, the balance of Guardian in general should be its own topic. That’s a whole other discussion.

The whole point that many people are making is that the Dragonhunter already feels like an entirely separate identity. It has very little synergy with the base class. So it really actually is kind of important that we talk about the balance of the class as a whole, because if some base Guardian things (like Spirit Weapons, for example) were fixed, then maybe it would be a little more desirable to play a backline ranged support build.

To be honest I am a bit jealous given just how different your elite specialization is compared to some of the others which seem like just slight improvements or trade-offs. But I get your point in terms with how the base profession’s mechanics might not synergize well just because they are poor. Almost seems like Spirit Bow for instance would be something DH could use for instance in this regard.

Just don’t want the entire discussion to shift over to ‘Can we get Medi-Guard more viable’ and not talk about anything DH related.

Ragnar the Rock.3174:

Instead of spear of justice doing the pull many people I know would prefer if they changed the longbow number 5.

Instead of a AOE with a long cast time and long CD that is very easy to avoid it should be similar to hammer number 3. (just faster and with a wider wave)

Basically it would be a targeted wave with a decent sized cone that cripples & teathers every target it hits (up to 5) then gains a flip over skill which pulls them all to your location & immobilizes them again.
The cool down could be say 25 seconds, the first cripple/tether would be say 5 seconds & the immobilize would be 3 seconds.

That would make the bow much more friendly with traps & be something quite useful (imagine the combo’s it could be used for)

Would require some tweaking, I like the idea of the cone hitting up to five targets and tethering them (not the actual F1 tether but a separate line that probably doesn’t do much except mark the target). Cripple/Tether on 5 seconds is good, 3 second immobilize on 5 targets is a bit too high for a weapon skill, 1 second at least maybe 2 seconds pending. The biggest draw behind the Longbow, much like my suggestion for Spear of Justice would be having the bow and traps interact together rather than being split.

However. Something to not about Dragonhunter is that the feedback concerning the spec should be catered strictly towards making that line useful, the balance of Guardian in general should be its own topic. That’s a whole other discussion.

Or maybe the Charr can reference the events that went down during the assault on Magumma Jungle as a means to making the typical Scrapper mean something different.

Scrapper can still be symbolic of the ‘grunt work’ however if the context shifted to a Scrapper that came from the Magumma Jungle assault, it has an entirely different meaning. A Charr Engineer going out into the environment where even the plants attempt to kill you to gather scraps to stay alive? A bit more respectable than the typical scrapper.

Could even lead into some funny lines:

Charr 1: What’s with that engineer over there? Looks like she paid a visit to Rata Sum and brought back junk.
Charr 2: Looks like a Scrapper to me.
Charr 1: ~growl~ Of course she is, no respectable Charr would be caught dead with that get-up.
Charr 2: No you dolt! She’s a Scrapper from Magumma! The action she’s seen would make you look like a pup!

…Alright turns out its hard to come up with funny lines. But you catch my drift.

“Add a trait allowing for Spear of Justice’s Tether, when it fades to pull the tethered enemy to the Guardian.”

Something I suggested in a different thread, but prospectively I think it can help bring synergy towards the range of LB and DH Virtues and Traps.

Further reflection I had considered the possibility of this being an added effect to Big Game Hunter.

Another thought I had was Wings of Resolve not breaking channels, so you can use it with True Shot or any skill with a cast-time on Dragonhunter to keep the mobility going. A well placed True Shot coupled with Wings of Resolve could theoretically fire over a Wall of Reflection for instance.

I like how the OP makes an already conversed opinion and then just says ‘Discuss!’

Nice try though, 2/10.

Strictly without touching balance issues which are a whole other level, ESports practically requires viewers to understand what is going on.

That’s a big problem, there’s a lot of action going on without proper explanation. Shoutcasters have to put out a massive amount of information in just a short amount of time. And most of that information goes straight over viewers heads.

Here are my thoughts strictly towards helping viewers both new and old have a better experience watching those GW2 tournaments live:

- Intermissions need to be filled in with not just player interviews or speculation, but perhaps 10 second clips of profession skills and animations such as what we see in Elite Specialization showcases. Showing off something like Swirling Winds and what it does ever briefly will allow even the newest of viewers to nod their heads in understanding. That way, when you see it in action and used well, there’s a better appreciation for it.

- We need replays of key points during a matchup, if possible. Show off things that might have happened off screen, make the clips and highlight with circles and lines why the amazing play went down as it did. Show off those pro stomps and explain what impact that had in the match!

Making progressive changes towards explaining SPvP will increase the viewership. Even if things are not quite balanced yet, at the very least things won’t be utter confusion for the players. In fact, after balance patches perhaps the shoutcasters could reference what changes shifted the builds around just before the match starts.

Ohoni.6057:

Then that’s too bad, because it’s a balancing act that they ARE engaged in, and have been so long as MMOs have included multiple forms of content. ALL Rewards systems have to be in balance with each other, otherwise you get complaints of some being less efficient than others, and these complaints should be resolved. The system I proposed would be no more prone to these considerations, despite constant and loud protests to the contrary.

They are not, no one has attempted to universalize rewards, that hasn’t happened ever. Give me an instance of a successful MMO where every single reward in the game could be earned through every single kind of game style in the game. Where there is no exclusivity.

Ohoni.6057:

So? You might as well be saying that the other player’s outfit indicates how much he enjoys the color blue, what does it matter?

No, because last I checked dye colors themselves aren’t exclusive behind anything except a gold sink. Try again. This time attempt to understand how exclusive rewards behind exclusive content shows a merit however small or large of what the person did. It’s literally ‘cause and effect’ here.

Ohoni.6057:

I’ll grant that every time you ask me to repeat myself on my basic premise, I. . . repeat myself, I honestly don’t know what the better response would be to that situation, but you’d have to agree that you guys are no better on that score, constantly responding with either “then you have to git gud,” or “then you don’t get the thing you want,” in various wordings.

Not really, we have been attempting over and over again, providing videos, links, actual examples of why exclusive rewards behind exclusive content is necessary. You simply don’t believe in it. It’s really coming down to the point where you won’t ever concede anything, which is making this entire conversation and debate fruitless.

Ohoni.6057:

You have absolutely no basis to this claim, and it runs contrary to everything about GW2 being successful over the past three years.

There are a lot of factors that cater to why GW2 has been successful. Personally, the core game had an impressive amount of polish across even the smallest details, and the utter design of the ‘trinity of gameplay’ from PvE, SPvP and WvW was a breath of fresh air in the monotone that was the MMO Market.

…Oh, and the B2P model for such quality is still kitten amazing to this day. However what we are discussing here is how to prevent such successes from failing, to not make this another ‘WoW contender that failed’. TBF though, FF14 is doing a pretty decent job at smashing WoW at this time.

Ohoni.6057:

We’re discussing this between each other on the forums. I am pushing for an agenda, you guys are pushing for your agendas. Devata is pushing for an agenda that would prevent people from getting what they want. I am not saying that Devata personally has any power to implement that system, any more than I do, but if the Devs were to listen to him, then that would be the result.

I would have thought you capable of understanding that without needing to be explained.

Admittedly got a little bit out of line there, but can you at least see the opposition to your idea? Those who take your side are not going as far as what you have suggested, rather they have other motivations (such as not wanting to see the elitist and stereotypical raider mentality split the community for instance).

Ohoni.6057:

Some might, but let’s not pick on them, they have enough challenges in their lives. Let’s stick to intelligent people like you and me and the other people capable of typing. Let’s not talk in hypotheticals, and just agree on the fact that removing exclusivity from an item is nowhere remotely comparable to actually taking away access to that item.

Nothing in this game is inaccessible except for skins ripped from the game, some of those early-on SPvP skins for instance have never seen a return for instance.

Lastly, for the record Compromise actually means to make concessions for a deal, both sides make their own concessions, there’s no maybe about it. I may not support the whole 50/50, that’s a little extreme I rather see exclusive rewards be the ‘end-game of a game-type’ but if you want exclusivity to exist even though you despise the method, then the best course at this time would be providing exclusive legendary armor rewards across various gametypes, the skin unique to that mode. Given that they made that model behind the Legendary Backpieces (that we know of right now), its likely that raiding won’t be the only method to earn Legendary Armor.

Ohoni.6057:

Again, no more (or less) impossible than balancing the current system. Any time they make content, they have to make some educated guesses as to how difficult they believe it to be, then judge what rewards would be weorthy of that effort, and how much you’d have to do for them. Should you get the fancy reward after one run? Five? Twenty? A hundred? They have to guess. It’s imperfect. My system is not perfect, but it’s not LESS perfect than the current system, so continuing to point out that my system is not perfect is NOT a case against it. It is not perfect, I never claimed it is perfect, but it is better.

No, the balancing act of making rewards universal across different activities involving different kinds of gameplay, is something I wouldn’t wish on any game developer, might even be considered a form of torture just attempting to balance A versus B versus C versus D….versus Z. Whereas appending exclusive rewards behind certain kinds of content, regardless of the difficulty of the task, gives the player and any observing individuals nearby an idea of what the person did to get that skin. Your system isn’t less perfect, its a monumental waste of time and resources that offers nothing to retain players.

Ohoni.6057:

You can still hunt for items if you choose, that option is still available to you, it is just not the ONLY item, just as people can choose to throw exotic weapons into the forge to get a Pre, but they have other options available.

You should know the difference between what you propose and the current state of precursors, don’t compare those two items and state that as a reasoning why your system would be better. In fact, the only correlation your solution for reward that even resembles attaining a precursor would be the common method of getting the precursor, by getting gold and buying it. And we all so love the gold system.

Ohoni.6057:

If you got it from that mob, then you got it from that mob. If you got it from a random drop then you got it as a random drop. You will likely not care about it as much in the latter case, but if it’s something you really wanted, then you will still care about it, and having it and caring about it a little is far preferable to caring about it a lot but not having it.

And what happens when you care about an item but don’t have it yet? You make the effort to attain it- wait this is going into a loop again, because you will say as if the task were ripping out your own teeth thus that ruins the fun for me. Yes that’s hyperbole, but its a pattern you have to realize in all of your reasoning, and the reward structure you propose to fix this supposed reward ‘dilemma’ isn’t sustainable.

Ohoni.6057:

. . . to you. You left that part out. It’s the biggest negative to you. And admittedly to at least several other people, but to a lot of other people, GW2’s reward system is a strong positive, and while everyone has their complaints about it, they aren’t the same complaints you have. Everyone would like to see more rewards added to the game, but they don’t have to distribute them worse than they have been.

Wrong. This is why we are getting Legendary Armor behind Raids in the first place, this is why Arenanet explicitly stated that they wished they handled Legendary Weapons better and not made them tradable, the current reward system in this game will not keep veterans around. People that agree with you Ohoni are probably fewer than the players running Fractal 50s every day, you are a minority here. It’s absolutely fine for a great majority of skins to be accessible through most routes but leave the exclusive skins behind exclusive content! Give players a long-term goal.

Ohoni.6057:

Stop trying to pretend that they are equivalent positions, they are not. I am saying that you can get everything you want, so long as I also get everything I want. You are saying that you want to get everything you want, and the right to prevent me from getting everything I want. You can try as you might to insist that these are two sides of a coin, but they are anything but.

Now, if I were insisting that my favorite activities should give the best rewards while your favorite activities should not, then that would be a position equivalent to your own, but I am not making that case. I am saying that both our favorite activities should reward the things that we want.

Sorry.

For the record, I believe Devata doesn’t have the power to stop you from getting the rewards…unless…Devata…Dev….

Oh my god. Devata’s a RED!

Ohoni.6057:

Imagine that, calling someone “selfish” for trying to hold things away from other people. . .

Some would argue it might be more selfish to take away the exclusive rewards from content, and maybe some would suggest making the end-game of GW2 unsustainable just to be able to do what you want for anything would be selfish as well.

…Rather go with the players who don’t want this game to die off.

….I am more interested on how you managed to not build ascended given how much playtime you have gathered. You have to be actively avoiding crafted the ascended pieces with that much playtime.

The elite specializations, at least to me aren’t necessarily supposed to be a ‘new profession’. Berserkers are still Warriors, Tempests are still Elementalists and Scrappers will still be Engineers.

What changes is what their focus or theme will be tailored towards, I don’t think NPCs will refer to you as the Scrapper but an Engineer who has focused down a certain line of your profession.

Devata.6589:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

This video is very relevant and I hope Anet takes a look at this and takes notes. The video also explains why and how Ohoni is so wrong:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9r34qSyYg0

Good video for the most part. Especially the part around 7:30. Killing that epic boss that was so hard to kill creates that effect.. getting some epic reward gives a similar (well not as big as the one you did see in the video) effect.

Also on a smaller scale, the video was about WoW, there I loved the engineering craft what did the same on a smaller scale..
I always had the goal to work towards, the next item, and getting that next item was never about grinding levels or farming mats, getting those mats where pretty easy, and the levels between cool items you wanted was always short.

No, getting that next item often required this one hard to get item, being it a recipe or a specific item (like a precursor). So every time you logged in, you had a goal, and reaching that goal was epic.

So that is a way you can create similar things for the more casual or cosmetic / toy focused players.

You don’t get this feeling when grinding a currency and buying the item. Not even a little.

I hope Anet employees will have a look at the video and at least thing about what they see there.

Personally, the idea behind Precursor crafting likely had this in mind, but I don’t think we will see something like a ‘Progressive PvE endgame’ such that we saw in Vanilla WoW and BC, and few parts of WotLK (Ulduar specifically).

…What they could do however is make the progression in the form of achievements, a list of difficult achievements that fill a meta-reward like a Legendary item. These achievements could be from all sorts of areas in the Magumma Jungle and even perhaps some parts of the Core game. Imagine a super meta achievement that was accomplished by doing absolutely everything, something that everyone could work towards both hardened players and casual alike?

Robert Gee.9246:

Kidel.2057:

No 5 target limit on Gun Flame explosion? Not even damage reduction?
This primal burst is still WAY more powerful then its normal burst.

Gun Flame has a 5 target limit for the explosion. It had this previously to, but it was per explosion, so you could hit 25 targets with the old version.

Can you clarify this further? I fire the new Gun Flame and it impacts a player in a large group.

- Does it explode on the target as well, dealing double hits or simply explode from them and hit their 4 allies?
- After the explosion, does it pierce and hit more than 5 targets if 5 people were caught in the first explosion?

In other words, assuming the first explosion hits the target and 4 of his friends, the pierce in an ideal situation could hit 4 more targets, no explosions on those for a total of 9 targets hit maximum?