Guild Wars 2

TwiNject.4976:

Guys you have some great suggestions, but you are writing them in the wrong place.
Ringil QV please suggest your post in:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/devtracker

That way Jon will see it much faster and will respond if they are thinking about the same.

A dev has already posted in this thread asking for our feedback. And posting in a thread with every other class is pointless because every class is trying to make their case. I haven’t gone into other classes forums but I’d assume if anet cared they’d have devs in each forum to get feedback directly from the players of their profession.

BlackBeard.2873:

If they don’t move cleansing wave and arcane precision down the adept tier, eles will be forced to either go full-on kamikaze, or be crappy bunkers (which the bunker already is) – meaning only kamikaze is viable. Why? Because with the proposed changes, the following defensive traits will exist without speccing all the way to master-level in a line.

Adept:
- Lava Tomb (Fire) – terrible, doesn’t prevent death, just go out with a bang
- One with Air (Air) – terrible and useless
- Elemental Shielding (earth) – Useful for d/d only, not new defense, just improves existing defense mechanisms (prot is shorter than auras)
- Earth’s Embrace (earth) – 90s cooldown
- Soothing Disruption (water) – cantrips are just bad, besides lightning flash
- Soothing mist (water, 5 point) – actually pretty good if you can survive
- Final Shielding (arcane) – 60s, often go from >25% —> 0 so it doesn’t proc.

As you can see, there is no way you can get any actual improvements in defensive capabilities at the adept level. That means you are forcing speccing to the master level to get survivability on the class that needs it most. Further, when you do spec into defensive trees, you get terrible return on investment b/c you have to waste an adept trait. This makes the choice clear: you are wasting your time to build any defense – just accept that your role is to get in, drop damage, and die.

Look at this another way: you are moving EVERY good trait out of adept. The usable traits left at the adept tier are:
- Fire: None
- Air: Zephyr’s boon (d/d only, which will be dead anyway), Bolt to the Heart
- Earth: Stone Splinters, Elemental Shielding, Earth’s Embrace
- Water: Vital Striking (glass-cannon only)
- Arcana: Blasting staff (staff only), final shielding (and not very good at that)

This is very build-crippling b/c you are either forced to pay a tax of taking absolutely useless skills, go into air (glass cannon) and earth (not enough survivability to justify not GC), or play staff.

The only lines that won’t force you take useless skills are:
-Air
-Earth
-Arcana (staff only)

To me it seems like you are nerfing survivability, build variety, and support on a class that currently struggles with the first 2 already. Please reconsider.

exactly!

I already had a 2 spot post on page 4 about how you guys can go about fixing and not breaking the ele by destroying our only d/d build left.

You guys need to fix our current d/d build, remove the ICD on EA and revert the cd on RTL. The cantrips are already a lost cause and i highly doubt youd go that far to fix what you guys already broke.

So instead of destroying our only viable d/d, which i think only a few of us still run because weve loved the play style since launch but play it at the cost of being 20x more useless to the group and in general… you need to make other build viable without wrecking what we have.

Fresh air was a step in the rigtht direction!

Moving blasting staff to adept is a big step in the right direction to make staff more viable too!

Fix and improve our signets and glyphs. Air is the only line that gives a glyph buff. You give us stats on fire and earth to go for a condition build yet we have no reliable ways to apply condition dmg.

diamond skin in its current state could work for a condition build IF you were to give us a viable condition build we could use with staff or scepter.

I see the eles weapon sets like this…

Staff—> Has the potential to be a bad kitten condition based build IF you were to fix signets/glyphs to allow so.
Scepter—> Is actually in a good place with the Fresh air builds we can put together and gives our best single target dmg.
Dagger—> Ive said it before and ill say it again, our pre nerf/launch dagger/dagger build would be amazing to play in this current meta. It honestly felt like that old build was meant for implementation later in the game after everyone learned how to play and bugs got fixed in other professions and they got updated as well. Just like the current war stun build, you guys went/are going to far(again, and again and again). Im not going to reiterate what you (should) already know about the ele and our hp/tough/armor/def.

(continued from above)

• Arcana this line is a D/D eles only saving grace. Even with it having a kitten EA. What i would like to see happen here.
  —-> Make all attunemets recharge at a set 10 seconds. No one specs into arcana for the attunement CD, its for what arcana offers as a D/x build. Instead of attunement recharge as the traits “passive” i would suggest something along the lines of a celestial +to all stats. Giving us some actual incentive to go into the arcana line aside from needing it to survive as a d/x ele.
  —-> Keep Elemental attunement at adept, it lets us free up 10-20 points from the arcana line while going with other trait lines.. for example my FA s/d build uses a 10/30/20/0/10 build. The swiftness is crucial for us as an ele to stay mobile, along with the other boons on attunment.
  —-> I can see moving Renewing Stamina to the master tier, BUT at the same time. I simply cannot wrap my head around why a class like the ele, with the lowest hp and armor in the game that REQUIRES the ability do dodge as much as possible, to have this trait at 10-20 points when classes like the mesmer and guards can have said skill with only 5 points. If you want to go that route, then remove the Arcane Fury 5 trait in arcana and replace it with renewing stamina. That way if we want to go for that extra vigor we can spend just 5 points in arcana and free up a lot of extra choices. Then since you put renewing stamina as a 5 point trait, you could replace the master tier choice with something that adds to either arcane skills for some more burst options OR some type of fury on crit essentially just switching renewing stamina and arcane fury.
  —-> Evasive Arcana, needs to have NO internal CD. Like i already said the ability to dodge and make it worth going 30 deep into arcana should be rewarding. The only builds that are going to use Evasive Arcane are D/x builds. If were up close in melee range as the squishiest class we need to mitigate the dmg as much as possible.

Off topic but still on topic, RTL needs to be reverted to its pre nerf. The “on miss” is ridiculous and needs to be at a set 20 seconds @1200 like before.

• Lingering elements, as long as it works like it should im fine with it being fixed for once. Its been broken since beta and we’ve had a useless 15 trait this entire time.

• Fire line, the fire line needs attention, but if you add in the changes i stated above, along with the changes you guys mentioned i think we could see some nice things in the fire line. Like you said, the GM traits still need something more worthwhile to go 30 into fire.

I just wanted to start off by saying, Thank you! Thank you for coming into this forum and getting OUR feedback directly. Hopefully other devs are doing so with their respective professions.

now then…

• Earth trait line and Diamond Skin
  This is actually a really nice idea. But the implementation of the earth trait line and DS being a GM trait doesnt work for what earth currently represents.
  Earth works really well with signets condition dmg with written in stone and signet CD, etc. That being said i think it would work better if…
  -> Passives on all signets were increased and made better
  —-> SoW, increase the passive condi cleanse from 1, to 2 conditions every 9 seconds. Also giving the activated effect chill go from 4—> 6s + confusion for 2 seconds.
  —-> SoF, the passive +crit chance is good in essence, but since signets and signet build often revolve around condition dmg its a useless trait for a condition build. Instead youd be better off going with something like +condition duration/ condition dmg. The activate is a nice burn, i would say increase the burn dmg and duration by atleast 1 second and add a cripple of 1-2 seconds.
  —-> SoA, yes the passive is nice with 25% run speed. But after that the activated effect , aside from the stun break, is pointless. Keep the blind and stun break(since a signet build running all signets would currently have none) But maybe Also add 3 seconds of protection.
  —-> SoE, passive is nice with the extra toughness, thats good as is. I actually like the immobilize, But i would go to say that staying with the condi/signet type build, add something like Torment OR bleeding with the immobolize.
  —-> SoR, the passive is nice, but it needs to be increased by atleast 100-150 per cast/channel. Currently the SoR is only viable with a d/x build. The passive is ok but i think to compete with ER, there needs to be atleast 1-2 condi cleanse on activate.

I feel like being able to go with a signet build with any weapon set we have would be great! doing something like i have above would allow us to use signets and also have a viable condition build available to us. It would also allow us to get out of arcana AND water by allow us to have the added effects of the passives of the signets aswell as the condition mitigation.

Going with an x/x/30/x/x signet/condition build would allow us to have multiple options in fire and air for a more offensive build OR water and arcana for a more bunker defensive build.

• Aquamancers movement… i see your point and i like it. But i dont think that would change the fact that almost no one would take the skill recharge option over something else, ESPECIALLY if it was a master trait.

• Cleansing wave, i agree 100%, it IS a powerful trait, but its definitely NOT worth making us spend 20 points into water JUST for that trait. its doing the exact opposite of what you guys want by putting us further into water. I honestly think the water line is near perfect as it is. With cleansing wave at adept were now able to only spend 10 points in water and allocate our other traits and still have SOME kind of help with condition mitigation. I agree that the master traits need to be worked on to be more enticing. Soothing wave and Arcane abatement are both pointless traits that no one uses. Since water is such a group and support friendly line, stay with that. With cantrip mastery at the master tier, i feel it fits there. Our cantrips are already on atrociously long CD’s. So if were running a support build were more than like going to be running 30 in water with V, IX, XI or if conditions are a big threat, III, IX, XII. But i also feel that the trait III should be a group buff not just the user. You need to give us viable options for us to CHOOSE over going with water V for some condition mitigation, in the other lines. The burning fire is a good idea for the fire line, but the ICD of 40 is insanely long and needs to be more like water V to compete with it. Maybe change up cleansing wave entirely and make it only remove burning and poison… then going with that give every other elemental trait the same condition based cleanse in their adept tier upon attunement.
  —-> Water, Fire/Poison/Tourment
  —-> Fire, Chill/Bleeding/Weakness
  —-> Air, Confusion/Blind/Vulnerability
  —-> Earth, Immobilize/Cripple/Fear

(continued)

ThiBash.5634:

Yes. Why don’t they just move it to fire or something? That way you’d at least get variation between healing/toughness bunker or dodgy glass cannon.

I know right… I’d be happier if they were to just put renewing stamina In fire adept and changed the burning fire to be more like cleansing wave… 20/30/10/10/0 or 20/30/0/10/10 etc, would be pretty fun as a harder hitting d/d at the cost of being glassy.

Crash.9186:

JonPeters.5630:

• Water VIII – Arcane Abatement. Moved to Adept tier.

Having that as a master trait was pointless and generally fightning trying to use falling damage offensively is quite a rare thing to be made generally useful, I still don’t see a reason to use this my self in WvW, whilst the falling damage reduction is nice to have, it’s not worth sacrificing an actual combat worthy trait, and I don’t count the skill depending on what attunement when falling damage occurs to make this trait worth getting, if anything, it should just be replaced with something like Arcane 25 for example.

JonPeters.5630:

• Water X – Soothing Wave. Moved to Adept tier.

This skill is still useless so why even bother putting it here? all I’m seeing atm is all the traits that are actually required for some builds just getting thrown into masters and the useless skills that rarely anyone took are being put into adept tier, why? what’s the reasoning behind this? this won’t make anyone with even half a brain take this horrible trait still.

JonPeters.5630:

• Arcane III – Arcane Retribution. Moved to Master tier. Decreased cooldown from 90 seconds to 45 seconds.

Master tier? do people actually use this? if there’s one thing I’ll never get, it’s playing the game and planning to go on low health at any given point, I can only really see bad players ever taking this.

JonPeters.5630:

• Arcane IV – Final Shielding. Decreased cooldown from 90s to 75s.

Can’t complain, though for a forced skill like this to be made useful as a trait, I’d like to think a 60 second cooldown would be more appropriate at the very least.

JonPeters.5630:

• Arcane V – Elemental Attunement. Moved to Master tier.

I can see the reason, though I still don’t see a real purpose behind it apart from once again…Anet trying to make people play how they want, with the attunement swapping business, this trait is pretty much also a staple of any ele build and Anet is prepared to just screw that over in 1 move? I really hope not…

JonPeters.5630:

• Arcane VI – Renewing Stamina. Moved to Master tier.

So as well as Arcane attunement, this is being thrown into master? is Anets idea of “balancing” an ele to just basically nerf the hell out of them or what? it was bad enough before when ride the lightning got hit hard with the nerf bat, yet warriors with sword and greatsword can disengage just as good as eles with RTL could, now this trait is almost a requirement of something like a D/D ele which obviously eles have a very low health pool and defense rating, they need the vigor to actually survive, on top of having Elemental attunement trait, now it’s either pick one or the other…you can’t be serious Anet, do you even play your own game?

JonPeters.5630:

• Arcane VII – Vigorous Scepter. Moved to Adept tier.

Useless skill going here again and not even being changed up, I’m seeing a pattern.

JonPeters.5630:

• Arcane VIII – Blasting Staff. Moved to Adept tier.

An almost required skill for staff eles, I can see why they put this here with the “staff eles need to be better with the support”, so can’t complain with this.

JonPeters.5630:

• Arcane IX – Windborne Dagger. Moved to Adept tier.

Another one of those skills where it’s somewhat useful to have, but there’s always better traits to have that’s actually going to be much more useful, and the fact that it only works in combat is quite a fail in it self.

JonPeters.5630:

_The following changes were done to reduce the necessity of putting points into the Arcane trait line…./snip

These changes overall don’t help, most things here are a giant nerf bat to almost every ele build/weapon set here, I really hope most of these don’t make it into the patch…

Couldn’t have said it better brotha! The changes would make us rely on water and arcana even more so.

Change cleansing fire trait to be like cleansing wave, but keep the passive of cleansing fire on activation with "x amount " of conditions on you, and change the cd to say,10 seconds. That would free up a lot of points in the water line for those looking for reliable/semi reliable condition mitigation who want to go with a more offensive build.

ImProVocateur.5189:

Gorani.7205:

… Although this looks like a buff on paper, it changes nothing for 95% of all Elementalists …

I do not know whether we agree or disagree. It looks like an “ataboy” that reads like a complaint. If old builds are preserved, while new build options emerge, then that is good right? People who go deep in Arcana and love it are scantly affected, I agree.

I am very vocal about Ele issues, and, though I do not agree that Ele has been in a good place since launch, thereby being denied buffs; rather, nerfed, I do congratulate the devs for recognizing one major obstacle to refreshing balance after the many changes. Is it too soon to say I love you guys? Maybe that is too much. I don’t know. I was recently infracted for supposedly having slighted devs. I am not sure what that was about. Maybe sarcasm or something. Anyways, you are working to reestablish trust with the Ele community. Bravo! You have a long way to go.

Respect is earned, not given. They need to not destroy builds just to make new ones viable.

They’re going against what they stated they’re trying to accomplish for the ele by trying to get us out of arcana and water. Keeping arcana and water as they are currently, and then doing every other proposed change to the other trait lines would be a step in the right direction. That would then give us the option to still have some condi cleanse every 13-10 seconds while being able to get out of going so deep I to water and arcana. Letting us use maybe a TD 10/30/20/10/0 or 10/30/20/0/10 or 0/30/30/10/0 or 20/30/10/10/0 for another viable d/d build would be a pretty fun option to try out.

As it sits with what they’re proposing. To keep our boons/dodges(survivability), and condi mitigation… We’re now actually forced to go x/x/x/30/30 just to get both of the now master traits we could before picked up 1 or both with 10-20 in arcana and water. It’s completely backwards.

The thing that annoys me the most is people saying that changes like diamond skin are awesome and even OP. Or that condi eles and wars will be the new meta…

I’m doing everything I can to keep the best feedback from our users visible!! I’m also repeating myself by saying that they “need to have a dev make an official thread in each professions forums to clean up the clutter of everyone trying to give them feedback about their profession in one thread together.” Keep our voices heard!

Gorani.7205:

Here comes my assessment:

The attunement cooldown buff only profits Elementalists that had no investment in Arcane at all, which – and I am sure about that – is only a insignificant portion of Ele players anyway. Arcane traits are too important right now, Anet makes a false assumption we spec in Arcane for the cooldown. For people that have e.g. 20 points invested, there is no change at all, we are still at 11 seconds. The global cooldown change is insignificant as we hardly fire off only one skill in an attunement line before we change to another anyway.
Although this looks like a buff on paper, it changes nothing for 95% of all Elementalists.

Fire II – Nice change, but it should be an adept trait, because we are in dire need of condition cleaning when this patch hits (see below).

Fire VIII – OK change, but we still give up way too much when using Conjures so they are sup par even after all the small buffs of the past.

Fire III – That would be great if Eles had any chance of a cover condition. Burning usually is the first one cleansed anyway. Additionally, with the short burning durations we have (or the chances to burn continuously) only a very heavy investment in Fire Magic would makes sense (which will no happen – see below)

Burning Rage 25 – Good change to the minor trait, but again: Who goes 25 points in Fire?.

Air V – Soothing Winds. Healing still scales awfully making it the worst of all “conversion traits” the professions have (eyes the Vitality for Power of the Warrior). It is not worth taking.

Air XI – Tempest Defense. Good change.

Earth 5 – Stone Flesh – An additional 40 Toughness will not make a huge difference as long as Lingering Elements is buggy and the Ascended Weapon power creep took that away primitively a few weeks ago.

Earth VII – Strength of Stone. – I still believe that condi builds for Eles are not working at the moment + no Ele can make Fire & Earth heavy builds and survive without Water & Arcane.

Earth XI – Diamond Skin. This looks incredible on paper, but taken the fact that pretty much two auto attacks from any profession will take the class with the lowest health pool & armour below 90% just highlights one thing: This trait is useless 90% of the time.

Water I – Aquamancer’s Alacrity. OK, I could live with that.

Water V – Cleansing Wave. This is a game breaker for pretty much every D/D build that is not already spec’ed for full bunker. We are low on Condi removals and with torment condi, Perplexity runes and Immobilization now stacking, Elementalists need that “on demand condition removal” by swapping into Water Magic. Moving it to Master tier does the opposite of what Anet wants with this patch: Taking out the builds that invest in Water & Arcane. To still have access to Cleansing Wave, Eles will need to invest even further into Water Magic.

Water VIII – Arcane Abatement. OK, but this is still a trait you will not take, even in WvW.

Water X – Soothing Wave. This is way too conditional & weak, even at a low tier.

Arcane III – Arcane Retribution. Even at 45 seconds (half the recharge now) I don’t see it as a grea move to wait to get to 75% health to get an automated Arcane Power cast .

Arcane IV – Final Shielding. See Arcane Retribution. still not worth it

Arcane V – Elemental Attunement. This will hit us hard, as it is our backbone of getting a boons (which are far from awesome after other classes can strip boons more easily and have “boon hate” traits). Alone, this is not too bad, but it will put us in a position to drop Renewing Stamina (see below)

Arcane VI – Renewing Stamina. Anet wants to take away Vigor boons – or at least their duration) across all classes and that’s where the Ele gets hit. Especially as D/D wielders (low HP & armour described above already) we need to evade more often than other professions. With Elemental Attunement also moved to Master tier we will lose 50% of our dodging ability due to the fact that we can not spec two master traits any more. Anet has not touched e.g. the Mesmer’s Vigor on Crit with their 5 point Critical Infusion – but moved our carbon copy trait from adept to master (?).

Arcane VII – Vigorous Scepter. It is still bound to work only in combat and does not help staff or dagger wielding builds.

Arcane VIII – Blasting Staff. This makes the buffs to staff from the last balance patch even better. Good, but why?

Arcane IX – Windborne Dagger. It is still useless, as it is linked to work only in combat. The Warrior has a minor trait that gives him 25% passive speed while wielding ANY melee weapon. Why can’t that work for Elementalists too? Get rid of the “only in combat thing”.

Reposting for visibility. Have the devs make official threads in each prof forums to clear up this clutter from every prof trying to give you guys great feedback like the user I quoted!

Treborlavok.3504:

Gorani.7205:

What does this mean for most of the builds?

The combo of the nerfs to Elemental Attunement, Cleansing Wave & Renewing Stamina will most likely result in Eles spec’ing even heavier in Water & Arcane to set off some of the losses to their ability to remove conditions & dodge. We lost survivability & mobility the past year (Nerf to Mist Form, RTL, e.g.), now you are taking away the ability to dodge.

More Eles will switch to Ether Renewal as their healing skill to counter the condition meta. The related effect is that non-staff Ele’s will get slower by not having access to the GoEH swiftness (or any other boon coming from that Glyph). Glyph builds will get even weaker as some might drop the reduced recharge trait for having points to move to Water & Arcane – and this is were the circle closes again.

Instead of providing us with diversity outside Water/Arcane builds, this patch could (or will) limit the numbers of viable builds that provide any survivability even more. The alternative to go to a condi based build is not there, even after changes to the Earth & Fire traits, Glyph builds got worse and D/D builds have lost even more survivability than other weapon setups, although they are the most dangerous to play (they are melee builds & they have not received a damage buff). The issue of the Focus was not addressed at all.

Another well written thought out response… C’mon devs.. Don’t destroy the ele… Listen to us!!!

We need official threads in each of the profession forums.

Gorani.7205:

What does this mean for most of the builds?

The combo of the nerfs to Elemental Attunement, Cleansing Wave & Renewing Stamina will most likely result in Eles spec’ing even heavier in Water & Arcane to set off some of the losses to their ability to remove conditions & dodge. We lost survivability & mobility the past year (Nerf to Mist Form, RTL, e.g.), now you are taking away the ability to dodge.

More Eles will switch to Ether Renewal as their healing skill to counter the condition meta. The related effect is that non-staff Ele’s will get slower by not having access to the GoEH swiftness (or any other boon coming from that Glyph). Glyph builds will get even weaker as some might drop the reduced recharge trait for having points to move to Water & Arcane – and this is were the circle closes again.

Instead of providing us with diversity outside Water/Arcane builds, this patch could (or will) limit the numbers of viable builds that provide any survivability even more. The alternative to go to a condi based build is not there, even after changes to the Earth & Fire traits, Glyph builds got worse and D/D builds have lost even more survivability than other weapon setups, although they are the most dangerous to play (they are melee builds & they have not received a damage buff). The issue of the Focus was not addressed at all.

Another well written thought out response… C’mon devs.. Don’t destroy the ele… Listen to us!!!

Gorani.7205:

Here comes my assessment:

The attunement cooldown buff only profits Elementalists that had no investment in Arcane at all, which – and I am sure about that – is only a insignificant portion of Ele players anyway. Arcane traits are too important right now, Anet makes a false assumption we spec in Arcane for the cooldown. For people that have e.g. 20 points invested, there is no change at all, we are still at 11 seconds. The global cooldown change is insignificant as we hardly fire off only one skill in an attunement line before we change to another anyway.
Although this looks like a buff on paper, it changes nothing for 95% of all Elementalists.

Fire II – Nice change, but it should be an adept trait, because we are in dire need of condition cleaning when this patch hits (see below).

Fire VIII – OK change, but we still give up way too much when using Conjures so they are sup par even after all the small buffs of the past.

Fire III – That would be great if Eles had any chance of a cover condition. Burning usually is the first one cleansed anyway. Additionally, with the short burning durations we have (or the chances to burn continuously) only a very heavy investment in Fire Magic would makes sense (which will no happen – see below)

Burning Rage 25 – Good change to the minor trait, but again: Who goes 25 points in Fire?.

Air V – Soothing Winds. Healing still scales awfully making it the worst of all “conversion traits” the professions have (eyes the Vitality for Power of the Warrior). It is not worth taking.

Air XI – Tempest Defense. Good change.

Earth 5 – Stone Flesh – An additional 40 Toughness will not make a huge difference as long as Lingering Elements is buggy and the Ascended Weapon power creep took that away primitively a few weeks ago.

Earth VII – Strength of Stone. – I still believe that condi builds for Eles are not working at the moment + no Ele can make Fire & Earth heavy builds and survive without Water & Arcane.

Earth XI – Diamond Skin. This looks incredible on paper, but taken the fact that pretty much two auto attacks from any profession will take the class with the lowest health pool & armour below 90% just highlights one thing: This trait is useless 90% of the time.

Water I – Aquamancer’s Alacrity. OK, I could live with that.

Water V – Cleansing Wave. This is a game breaker for pretty much every D/D build that is not already spec’ed for full bunker. We are low on Condi removals and with torment condi, Perplexity runes and Immobilization now stacking, Elementalists need that “on demand condition removal” by swapping into Water Magic. Moving it to Master tier does the opposite of what Anet wants with this patch: Taking out the builds that invest in Water & Arcane. To still have access to Cleansing Wave, Eles will need to invest even further into Water Magic.

Water VIII – Arcane Abatement. OK, but this is still a trait you will not take, even in WvW.

Water X – Soothing Wave. This is way too conditional & weak, even at a low tier.

Arcane III – Arcane Retribution. Even at 45 seconds (half the recharge now) I don’t see it as a grea move to wait to get to 75% health to get an automated Arcane Power cast .

Arcane IV – Final Shielding. See Arcane Retribution. still not worth it

Arcane V – Elemental Attunement. This will hit us hard, as it is our backbone of getting a boons (which are far from awesome after other classes can strip boons more easily and have “boon hate” traits). Alone, this is not too bad, but it will put us in a position to drop Renewing Stamina (see below)

Arcane VI – Renewing Stamina. Anet wants to take away Vigor boons – or at least their duration) across all classes and that’s where the Ele gets hit. Especially as D/D wielders (low HP & armour described above already) we need to evade more often than other professions. With Elemental Attunement also moved to Master tier we will lose 50% of our dodging ability due to the fact that we can not spec two master traits any more. Anet has not touched e.g. the Mesmer’s Vigor on Crit with their 5 point Critical Infusion – but moved our carbon copy trait from adept to master (?).

Arcane VII – Vigorous Scepter. It is still bound to work only in combat and does not help staff or dagger wielding builds.

Arcane VIII – Blasting Staff. This makes the buffs to staff from the last balance patch even better. Good, but why?

Arcane IX – Windborne Dagger. It is still useless, as it is linked to work only in combat. The Warrior has a minor trait that gives him 25% passive speed while wielding ANY melee weapon. Why can’t that work for Elementalists too? Get rid of the “only in combat thing”.

If only we could ensure a dev could see this…

Insanity.5174:

In the past 12+ months Elemental Attunement and Renewing Stamina supported all of ele builds,if this 2 traits would go in Master Traits you will kill again Elementalists.

Zephyr’s Speed should be replaced with Renewing Stamina(Guardians and Mesmers have got vigor putting ONLY 5 points, and Guardians don’t need to dodge to evade the damage like Elementalists).
In the past months you nerfed our mobility,our survability but PLEASE don’t nerf also our dodge capacity,the class is not made to TAKE all the damage in the face.
Let Elementalist DODGE,PLEASE.

Lingering Elements should be replaced by Elemental Attunement(maybe with a lower boon duration).
Lingering Elements is bugged since beta,if something doesn’t work correctly,PLEASE replace/delete/change it.

In the Arcana Traits line there are 2 traits that should be merged :
Arcane Mastery and Arcane Energy OR Arcane Mastery and Arcane Retribution,if you merge them these traits will be more usefull and viables.

One With Air #4 Air : 1,5 sec of superspeed is not so helpfully to escape from certain circumstances,PLEASE buff 1,5 sec to 3/4 secs to be really helpfully and viable.

Arcane Shield should reflect projectiles.
Tornado #Elite should destroy projectiles as Swirling Winds Focus #4 Air.

Please don’t put Elemental Attunement and Renewing stamina to master trait,never.

I hope you devs are actually paying attention here. Feedback like this and the countless other positive constructive feedback from the players who have mained said profession should be taken to the heart. We know what works, we know what doesn’t work. Your proposed changes simply do not work and will flat out destroy and kill every single d/d d/f build we have as eles.

You guys should really have a group or couple or devs per profession putting up a post in their prospective profession.( that’s assuming there’s atleast 2-4+ devs per profession that main said prof and nothing else) that way we can go directly to the devs that play our profession and give them the most constructive criticism and feedback we can think of, and nothing gets lost in this mess of a thread you guys started. Seriously guys, you’re breaking so many builds of so many of the professions is literally mind bottling. You need to talk to and get feedback privately from each profession in their respected forums. Do not destroy your game by not listening to is, the people who have been playing our professions since launch and even beta!

Yep… Dagger/dagger will be dead and done if that goes through. It honestly doesn’t effect any burst scepter/x builds this build literally just kitten s, destroys, breaks, kicks in the nuts, spit on the face of any D/D build.

It even further reiterated my point I brought up however long ago that, none of the dev main an ele. Did you see the builds he said he was “testing” he actually flat out contradicted the entire paragraph about trying to get eles out of arcana and water. It’s a joke really.

The only good thing I can see about this is the fact that we’ve been super vocal thus far!!

Seriously guys/gals, we need to be vigilant and speak up. Be constructive and concise with your feedback. No babble, no complaining. They want feedback we need to give them the best we have! Even if you’ve never played dagger/dagger and never even thought about going down the arcana line. These proposed changes just go to show that they don’t even play their own game, or atleast all of the classes. So your beloved build that you’re running now has the possibility of becoming useless. Stand up with your brothers and sisters!! If you see a post that has good feedback from one of us… Repost it, even if you don’t know what to add just say," qft, this is actually some really good input!" Or something of the likes. +1 the post too. We need to stick together folks!!

Columbo.5924:

Olvendred.3027:

On eles:

Massively nerfing 2 trait lines and then buffing 2 others does not encourage build diversity. If you want get more diversity, leave Water and Arcane alone, and add the buffs to Earth and Fire. This would actually give us the option to choose between different builds, rather than having to abandon all existing builds in favour of new ones. A few months after the patch, there’ll be the same lack of diversity, just with a different build.

Thats one of the my major issues with this patch. I don’t really understand why creating new builds always means that existing ones get nerfed. The current builds are not even competitive enough to make players bring elementalists to the tournaments at all. Nefing them is hardly what anyone asked for.

And the new options are just additional options. The trait points for these options must be shoved off the existing builds so the players will always be forced to choose. So there is no power creep at all, just a buff to traits/builds that were never on par to begin with. And if the new traits allow for strong new builds with the old traits being the same – isn’t that what you have been trying to achieve in the first place?

Pay attention anet please!!! Do not kill the ele class even further. Go to our forums and listen and comment and talk. Take many of the well thought out and put together responses the dedicated ele community has already posted and make the right choices.

Jaytee.9513:

Not to sound negative but changes to elementalist seems to nerf survivability a bit. Being the squishiest class available (lowest hp, light armor) with no passive defenses or evades seem a bit unfair.

Devs have taken away mobility (RTL nerf), heals (EA internal cd of 9 sec and healing co-efficients), buffs (through boon stealing-removal or boon hate type traits given to other classes) but given nothing in return leaving ele’s as the least played class in pvp tournaments.

Taking 50-60 points into water and arcane traits is a must if you plan on running solo or small groups. Without those traits ele’s die far to easily and now you want to bump up some of those traits to master tier lvl? Even if people chose to place 30 into arcana line they still will lose out either elemental attunement or renewing stamina (protection buff generation or increased dodge ability) and this sounds like a big nerf to survival.

What do ele’s get in return? A 2 sec reduction on attunement swap. Slightly lower cd on a few utilities……..

With all the power creep from equipment and “balancing” other classes, elementalist are having a hard time staying alive long enough to be of benefit to groups in sPVP or WvW, which is why there is less and less of them playing (they are becoming rally bait- more of a detriment to the group).

IMHO elemental attunement trait should be a built in passive as part of the class mechanic, attunement recharge have a base of 10 sec, and perhaps specific condition removal for each minor (air 5=cripple removal, fire 5=chill removal, earth 5=burning removal, water 5 bleed or poison removal) which would make attunement swapping important to survival.

These changes would decrease the need for water/arcane trait lines.

That would actually help remove the need for a d/d spec for evasive arcana and also promote us to go into other trait line. If they were to so that with a lot of the other ideas/changes people have stated.

BlackBeard.2873:

I just want to agree with many Elementalist concerns about the major nerfs to Elemental Attunement/Renewing Stamina and Cleansing Wave.

The reason why moving all of these to Master is a bad move is b/c ele survivability is already laughable. We die to condi-spam just like Mesmers do, so you give Mes. a VERY powerful 10-point trait (2-condi clear on every heal), yet nerf ele’s condi clear trait further. Then on top of it, you make their dodging harder, and boon-access harder. Mesmer’s for FIVE points can perma-vigor dodge + stealth. How is ele supposed to survive? Stun people with aura’s that still make them eat large damage spikes?

I fear you are pushing ele into a steathless mage-thief with these changes, without actually providing real viable sustain builds. Seems to be a little inconsistent. Please reconsider so many pre-emptive nerfs that don’t address current core issues.

Very well said and i agree 100%.

PLEASE for once, listen to players concerns/critiques.

oZii.2864:

If I look at the proposed changes reasonably Blasting staff moved to adept is good, the others moved to adept is good. Ones moved to master make sense because they are buffed. Then we get to windborne dagger moved to adept and renewing and elemental attunement moved to master.

So it looks like something has to move up for something to move down. If we look at windborne dagger objectively most people would agree it isn’t a master tier trait.

The reason it doesn’t look like a master tier trait is because of our access to swiftness. Then you look at how we are built and then you we look at elemental attunement boons that arent swiftness and you see that we need those boons for survivability we already specced into arcana at the cost of valuable stat points to begin with.

You could make the case of soothing disruption provides vigor but that is ok. My whole thing with the move is that boon punishment was introduced already so it isn’t like having boons is “OP”.

What looks better is to move just 1 of the traits to master so the option to still take both is there for those that go 30 points in arcana(at the cost of raw stat points). If someone goes 20 into arcana they do so at the cost of “Raw stat points” so their is a trade off there already.

It sounds biased because a change like this doesn’t affect what I run and can still run exactly like I do now but I don’t see a problem with that. It isn’t necessarily that traits have to be moved down if they aren’t “Master Tier” worthy but those traits at “Master tier” worthy should be buffed so they are attractive.

You brought up good points, just like everyone else here.

There is no need what so ever to completely destroy the D/D arcana/water spec to try and make other builds for it “work”. They simply need to make other trait lines more viable for the d/d play style and take away the need to go so far into arcana/water.

Ill say it again, with the current changes as a D/D spec, youre still required to run 30 arcana but at the cost of having less boons/survivability or less dodges/survivability.

→ make the attunement cd a set 10 seconds, and change arcana passive bonus to +to all stats
→ Fix or remove LE for Elemental attunement
→ keep renewing stamina at adept tier
→ Give SoR a better passive heal and other traits or our utilities better access to condition removal and boons.

If they were to do what i said above, you could essentially only go 10-15 in arcana and still have boons/survivability, and essentially if they implemented condi mitigation/ better passive healing we could ignore the water line for more interesting options in other trait lines.

Arcana V, VI, XI is the standard of any D/D build. The changes are trying to promote diversity so i appreciate that. But they need to give us options that are the same as EA for condi mitigation/healing, boons.

Hynoris.3684:

-We want to make the elementalist less dependent on the arcane line

“put Elemental Attunement on master tier …then post 6 builds ALL with arcana and only one with fire”

Really…

And i know you guys are trying to make staff viable for eles for some time now, but you dont have to nerf D/D to the ground(more than already is) to achieve this.

SERIOUSLY ANET… IF YOU WANT CONSTRUCTIVE FEEDBACK, PLEASE REFER TO EACH CLASSES SPECIFIC FORUMS SO NOTHING FROM ANY OF THE CLASSES GETS LOST IN THE CLUTTER!!!!

Please do not flat out destroy ANY d/d build for the ele…

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/elementalist/December-10th-Elementalist-changes/first

did this entire thread just disappear for anyone else too?

EDIT, nvm, it wasnt letting me change to the first page, ignore and continue with creative and constructive ideas.

Columbo.5924:

Did they even play what they have been designing?!?

Sadly, i think they dont…

If this goes into effect… the D/D build is now gone and done.

A user already said it, they need to NOT nerf current builds just to try and make other builds viable.

They need to fix 2 of the biggest reasons why people use arcana.

→ Evasive Arcana, its a D/D builds ONLY reliable trait to give us survivability/dmg.

→ Attunement CD, they need to flat out remove attunement % CD from arcana. Keep the attunement CD at a set 10 seconds.
——> Remove LE and replace it with Elemental attunement like someone else stated
——→ Keep renewing stamina in VI adept trait, giving us the option to go that extra 5 for elemental attunement if we want the extra boons

Condi removal/healing and dodging/boons are, as a D/D, the only way to survive vs any class.

If they were to remove the need to rely on arcana/water for the above stated reasons, without destroying the current standard build, THAT would be how they could add build diversity.

Rosy.5194:

Ele comments:

Many people have already pointed out the issues with the proposed changes to the Water line, along with the Arcana changes. Honestly I don’t see how most builds won’t just gravitate towards 20 in water and at least 20 in arcana (if not the full 30 as usual for Evasive Arcana, the actual reason for buying into arcana, not the cooldown), which hardly increases build diversity.

I also want to point out the lousy condition removal elementalists have currently; unless you run staff, you also cannot share condition removal with allies at all, unless you have Cleansing Wave (and Evasive Arcana) — but now you must spend more in water to keep that ability. Staff is useful for a certain meta in WvW, but is lousy for basically everything else. D/D and S/D (and */F, ha ha ahahaha--ahem) are far more tricky to keep alive in a blob in WvW, being ultra squishy, and I feel required to keep 10 points in earth to stay alive (plus lots of dodging). The changes to water mean I’m going to have to DROP those 10 points, since I have enough problems with getting overwhelmed with conditions as it is.

These are not major issues in PvE. They are very major issues in WvW.

I honestly hope that they listen to not just our worries/complaints/critiques, but every other class that has concerns about their class. A lot of people are bringing up legit honest concerns with the changes and bringing forth viable responses to the changes.

Please Anet, listen to the players that love and play their classes daily and have since launch and beta.

virtue.7235:

oZii.2864:

JonathanSharp.7094:

Move 1 not both. I love D/D and I usually can find reasoning by alot of the balance changes and keep a open mind but this one. I’ll go 30 arcana anyway the traits are good but neither of them make D/D ele’s to powerful based on the other changes to Elementalist mentioned.
I can understand moving 1 so those builds that don’t go all the way in arcana with these changes don’t become to strong but I don’t see it affecting those that go 30 in arcana already that is already 30 points we spend and those are good traits and I don’t see a point in putting them both together.
I usually play “classic d/d” so 30 in arcana for me and I don’t mind 30 in arcana. This change doesn’t destroy the classic build but is nerf to the classic build that has already been nerfed quite a bit.
I see it playing out that moving both to master tier ends up with Renewing stamina>Elemental attunement. With elemental attunement then becoming one of those traits that nobody takes. Because Vigor>The boons you get from elemental attunement.
Elemental attunement I feel can stay at adept with renewing going to master and it is fine.
You guys introduced several gameplay elements to help other classes deal with those classes that are “boon heavy” the vigor from renewing, and boons from elemental can be stripped or the elementalist, guardian, prismatic mesmers, can all be “punished” if they are fighting enemies that have traits that punish or strip those boons so the counter play has been implemented in regards to “classic D/D”.
Yes I love classic 0/10/0/30/30 I have played other builds but these changes to those traits nerfs classic 0/10/0/30/30 as if to “force” movement from running 30 in arcana. I like 30 points in arcana and I don’t see anything being overpowered by moving just 1 trait to master.
TL&DR: Don’t move both Renewing Stamina and Elemental Attunement to Master.

THIS
both these traits are directly related the the elementalists survivablity. d/d hardly has a place in the current meta. i understand build diversity but this would be bad change.
DO NOT MAKE THIS CHANGE

tayloriusrex.4532:

piffdaddy.8014:

iriyabran.6218:

So you want to take away some of the need for eles to go into arcane and you actually do exactly the opposite by moving multiple mandatory traits up in tier you force people to invest even more and even more trait points in water and arcane. Also people who go high in arcane go for “evasive arcane” NOT for the attunement cooldown.
You basically doom us to set ourself in stone with 30 water 30 arcane and 10 whatever, the attunement recharge won’t matter and diamond skin genuinely made me laugh. I wish good luck to everyone who decides to test spending 30 trait points and trying to stay over 90% health in PvP often enough for it to be a trait that justifies the investment and sacrifice of everything else.
I am not even joking when I say this I really don’t know how you guys play ele if you play it at all.

Quoted for kitten truth…I hope anet reconsiders some of these changes to arcane and water to avoid “power creep” when the “power” we are getting is not even worth going for. So basically we end up with unneeded nerfs. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.

I agree with these posts very strongly. For those of us in the WvW community these changes are mind baffling.

QFT ^
You want build diversity for eles…
- Remove attunement CD % from arcana and make the set attunement cd 10 seconds.
-> replace attunement cd% with celestial +to all stats or something else.
- DO NOT move our only worthy adept skills in arcana and water to master tier.
-> Youre doing the exact opposite of giving us diversity and making us go with atleast 40 points into arcana and water for vigor/boons, 1 condi cleanse.
-> instead you need to keep said skills at the adept trait tier. Fix Evasive arcana to have either no ICD or a 5 second ICD to let us free up a lot of points from water.
- The only viable d/d build atm is the standard 0/10/0/30/30… because… we rely so much on boons, dodges, short attunement cds, and condi cleanse. Anyone who says otherwise has never faced a competent player in any situation.
Why else do you think there were NONE, ZERO, NADDA, NO ONE, NOT ONE, ZILCH players using an elementalist in the last PAX tournament… its not a kittene. Because the ele class is already practically destroyed for anything other than a gimmicky easily avoided s/d burst build let alone a staff that you cant 1v1 with. If this goes into effect youre guaranteeing that noone will ever play an ele in Tpvp and noone will be using anyD/D builds in wvw.
-> FIX lingering elements or change it for Elemental attunement.

tayloriusrex.4532:

piffdaddy.8014:

iriyabran.6218:

So you want to take away some of the need for eles to go into arcane and you actually do exactly the opposite by moving multiple mandatory traits up in tier you force people to invest even more and even more trait points in water and arcane. Also people who go high in arcane go for “evasive arcane” NOT for the attunement cooldown.
You basically doom us to set ourself in stone with 30 water 30 arcane and 10 whatever, the attunement recharge won’t matter and diamond skin genuinely made me laugh. I wish good luck to everyone who decides to test spending 30 trait points and trying to stay over 90% health in PvP often enough for it to be a trait that justifies the investment and sacrifice of everything else.
I am not even joking when I say this I really don’t know how you guys play ele if you play it at all.

Quoted for kitten truth…I hope anet reconsiders some of these changes to arcane and water to avoid “power creep” when the “power” we are getting is not even worth going for. So basically we end up with unneeded nerfs. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.

I agree with these posts very strongly. For those of us in the WvW community these changes are mind baffling.

QFT ^^^^^

You want build diversity for eles…

- Remove attunement CD % from arcana and make the set attunement cd 10 seconds.
-> replace attunement cd% with celestial +to all stats or something else.

- DO NOT move our only worthy adept skills in arcana and water to master tier.
-> Youre doing the exact opposite of giving us diversity and making us go with atleast 40 points into arcana and water for vigor/boons, 1 condi cleanse.
-> instead you need to keep said skills at the adept trait tier. Fix Evasive arcana to have either no ICD or a 5 second ICD to let us free up a lot of points from water.

- The only viable d/d build atm is the standard 0/10/0/30/30… because… we rely so much on boons, dodges, short attunement cds, and condi cleanse. Anyone who says otherwise has never faced a competent player in any situation.

Why else do you think there were NONE, ZERO, NADDA, NO ONE, NOT ONE, ZILCH players using an elementalist in the last PAX tournament… its not a kittene… Because the ele class is already practically destroyed for anything other than a gimmicky easily avoided s/d burst build let alone a staff that you cant 1v1 with. If this goes into effect your almost guaranteeing that noone will ever play an ele in Tpvp and noone will be using any D/D builds.

Phi Is Sly.1857:

Tyler Chapman.1832:

DiogoSilva.7089:

The change to arcana is lovely, and it’ll open up a lot of new possibilities, but I worry about some issues that might cripple those possibilities. Here’s a few comments:

3.1. Elementalists rely too much on Elemental Attunement or Renewing Stamina to survive. Although it might be worth trying the scepter’s higher endurance trait now that it is at adept, I think the earth traitline should have a… worthy substitute for elemental attunement’s protection. Maybe it could have a stun breaker trait? Rock Solid could get it, but I fear it could make it too strong. Maybe as a grandmaster trait, and moving Written in Stone down a tier.

The changes we’ve done to Ele are actually going to drastically increase the amount of build diversity. The arcane recharge change really does add the flow the Elementalist needed when not spending points in Arcane. This will now allow players to stray away from spending points in the Arcane line. Ele’s will now experience faster attunement swapping as well because they will be down to 1.5s globals when they have zero points spent in Arcane and 1.2s globals with 30 points.

This makes:
13 second recharge on 0 points Arcane
12 second recharge with 10 points Arcane
11 second recharge with 20 points Arcane
10 second recharge with 30 points Arcane

Dagger ele’s will now have new specs through Tempest Defense, Elemental Shielding, and Shared Auras much more appealing, as well as being able to go up the Fire and Earth trees.

Scepter ele’s will be able to play some forms of condition builds, burst builds with more sustain, and even bunker builds.

Staff ele’s will now be able to get blasting staff from tier one and now be capable of going for a trait such as Diamond Skin, or even Fresh air or high up in the Fire line.

Here are some examples of specs I’ve been messing around with:
0/30/10/30/0 (Tempest Defense, Elemental Shielding, Shared Auras with Cantrips and Dagger/Dagger)
0/0/30/10/30 (Diamond Skin bunker build)
0/30/30/0/10 (Tempest Defense, Diamond Skin, Double Arcane with recharge burst spec)
20/20/0/10/20 (Dps staff build based around sustain from Burning Fire)
0/10/0/30/30 (Generic D/D Arcane build)
0/20/0/20/30 (Generic S/D Burst build)
0/30/0/20/20 (Fresh air build)
Many more..

We thank everyone for their feedback. We are keeping a VERY CLOSE eye on this thread and we will constantly be chatting internally until this release drops for potential things to change.

Why would Anyone want to go 0/20/0/20/30 for a S/D Burst build. Don’t just post things with out playing the class please. Your just pen pushing and have no idea how the changes will impact us for the bad. You don’t even go 30 fire at all.

+9000, honestly everyone can jump on a build craft site and see what “could work”.

Do something useful for each profession and actually talk to the players in their respective forums and get honest truthful advice from them. Why do you think there are hardly any ele players anymore. You destroyed our original D/D build and now youre destroying in even more by nerfing arcana AND water line adept and master traits.

You should have 2-4 Devs per profession to be able to sit down, come up with ideas and theories and prospected changes to their profession and only their profession, then post those ideas in their respective profession forums and discuss ideas and critiques with the players of that profession. Doing things like this and having so many good ideas get lost in the clutter of every single profession talk about things they like/hate is pointless.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Treborlavok.3504:

None of the mobility issues were addressed.

(…)

If youre not running a glass burst build, your still required to use 2-3 cantrips.

Mist form still not mentioned about being able to be rooted while in it.

I wouldn’t expect for a single patch to fix every single issue.

The condi removal now gets screwed up even more so by moving adept traits in water and arcana to the master traits. Were still required to go 50-60 between arcana and water for “decent” condi removal.

New Burning Fire says hi. For a burst elementalist, an automatic condition removal is all they need. Especially when you can spec for it to add 3 stacks of might, vigor and regeneration with other traits.

People have been complaining about the dependence on arcana for too long. That alone will open up a lot of new possibilities.

Actually… THIS would free up people from depending on arcana AND water so much for condi removal.

They need to make the BASE attunement cd 10 seconds. Then putting 30 into arcana would give us a 7-8 second attunement cd.

Or they need to just simply make the attunement cd 10 seconds. Then take away the attunement cd passive from arcana and change it to something like a celestial +to all stats. Then they need to remove the Interal CD on Evasice Arcana. Letting you free up points from water so you dont have to go 30 just to get “some” condi removal.

Burning fire… seriously… every 40 seconds.. yea thats helpful.

red.2387:

We can’t have Elemental Attunement and Renewing Stamina together anymore? THIS IS AWFUL.

This is a MASSIVE NERF. This is literally all we had left…

Case and point.

Hook line and sinker, were done.

Stick a fork in us.

Sars.8792:

Water I – Aquamancer’s Alacrity. Moved to Master tier.
Water V – Cleansing Wave. Moved to Master tier.

I liked having both of these always for staff and sometimes s/d ….. intentional nerf ? if not could it please be one or the other

exactly, just like the arcana line changes.

They need to make the BASE attunement cd 10 seconds. Then putting 30 into arcana would give us a 7-8 second attunement cd.

Or they need to just simply make the attunement cd 10 seconds. Then take away the attunement cd passive from arcana and change it to something like a celestial +to all stats. Then they need to remove the Interal CD on Evasice Arcana. Letting you free up points from water so you dont have to go 30 just to get “some” condi removal.

hooma.9642:

JonPeters.5630:

..

• Air XI – Tempest Defense. Decreased the cooldown from 60s to 25s.
  ….

25s is to much reduction. now u need as example as warrior stability to secure the final blow to an ele via cc. but if u miss u need more time to recharge your stability before the defense is up again.

you obviously dont play an ele.

- Dagger off hand -

Updraft- 40s cd

Earthquake- kitten cd

- Focus off hand -

Gale- 50s cd

- Staff -

Static field- 40s cd

rhodoc.2381:

Earth XI – Diamond Skin. This trait has been redesigned. Conditions cannot be applied to you when your health is above the threshold. 90%.

This sounds OP.

its 90% hp, just like VS its useless after a fight starts. Its only useful in PVE.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Those are some of the greatest changes elementalists will get since the game is out, and are going to be extremely important at fixing some of our core issues.

not in the slightest. Its an “attempt” at a “fix” that ruins the core d/d builds even more so.

None of the mobility issues were addressed.

The condi removal now gets screwed up even more so by moving adept traits in water and arcana to the master traits. Were still required to go 50-60 between arcana and water for “decent” condi removal.

If youre not running a glass burst build, your still required to use 2-3 cantrips.

Mist form still not mentioned about being able to be rooted while in it.

I like the TD air change, but like i said, were still required for d/d to invest heavily into arcana and water.

Bsgapollo.5364:

I’ll talk about elementalist since I’ve been playing it since beta.

The things I will mention are the things I disagree with, everything els is fine.

• Water V – Cleansing Wave: It’s one of the very few condition removals an elementalist has. And for it to be effective he still has to put a lot of points into arcana for it to be good. Even after the buff to the elemental cooldown it would mean you can only remove 1 condition every 13 seconds. Which is not extremly great for a master tier trait.

• Arcane V – Elemental Attunement and Arcane VI – Renewing Stamina: Yes 1 should be moved to a master tier but not both, each one of those traits are almost an essence to have on an elementalist. My suggestion would be to put Arcane VI into the master trait, that way elementalists still have the choice to pick between a slightly less effective endurance regen traits such as Arcane VII ( vigorous scepter ) if they would only put 10 points into arcana.

• Earth VII: I would honestly put this into the adept trait tier. Elementalist has very little ways to deal condition damage, for it to work they have to stack into toughness for it to be effective, meaning they would lack a lot into vitality and other departments. There are a lot of better traits to take into earth and personaly I would never take that trait, not even if it was in the adept trait line.

Small thing about reducing the elemental cooldown. I like this idea a lot, it will open a lot of build diversity for sure but there is still one big main issue in arcana. And that is evasive arcana. It gives INSANLY a lot for being 1 trait, it gives me every 10 second a 1.3k heal and removing 1 condition, A blast finisher, 5 second burning, and a blind (not that great but still)

Personally I wouldn’t know how to solve this since it’s an extremely important trait and without it an elementalist probably wouldn’t be viable anymore. It needs to be a grand master trait but somehow reworked that you’re not forced to spend 30 points into arcana. maybe put it into a different trait line? Although I wouldn’t know exactly which one. I would like to know how other elementalist think about this.

agreed, I would honestly be fine with all the changes if they were to remove the ICD on EA letting us free up points from water. As it stands were still required to spend 50-60 between water and arcana.

ELE

10 seconds… just like the current. seriously why couldn’t they make the base CD with 0 points in arcana 10. Then knock it down to 7 if you go full arcana giving us the base “weapon” cd. THAT is what would’ve made going into arcana not as much as a necessity anymore.

- With the way they moved both the V and VI to the master traits they’re now screwing up the D/D build even more so by now not being able to get the V in the adept trait line. Thus making the old arcana V,VI, XI now not useable. A fix i could see would be to remove the ICD on evasive arcana… letting us free up some points from the water line by not having to go 30 into water for OK condi removal.

- They also did the same thing with the water line by moving V to the master line thus knocking out cantrip recharge in the master line. Now its either cleansing wave, cantrip CD or cleansing wave, cleansing water/power aura… screwing up the water line now.

- Earth, DS is nice now for the start of fights but useless in wvw/pvp after the fight starts bascially. Toughness increase is nice but… its almost like a slap in the face with the other trait line changes.

- Air, Tempest defense cd is really nice. I can see they’re trying to get d/d builds into other lines than the standard 0/10/0/30/30.

- Fire still isnt worth going into with D/D.

In the end… this would entirely screw up the current/standard D/D build entirely and destroy it even further.

10 seconds… just like the current. seriously why couldn’t they make the base CD with 0 points in arcana 10. Then knock it down to 7 if you go full arcana giving us the base “weapon” cd. THAT is what would’ve made going into arcana not as much as a necessity anymore.

With the way they moved both the V and VI to the master traits they’re now screwing up the D/D build even more so by now not being able to get the V in the adept trait line. Thus making the old arcana V,VI, XI now not useable.

They also did the same thing with the water line by moving V to the master line thus knocking out cantrip recharge in the master line. Now its either cleansing wave, cantrip CD or cleansing wave, cleansing water/power aura… screwing up the water line now.

DS is nice now for the start of fights but useless in wvw/pvp after the fight starts bascially. Toughness increase is nice but… its almost like a slap in the face with the other trait line changes.

Tempest defense cd is really nice. I can see they’re trying to get d/d builds into other lines than the standard 0/10/0/30/30.

All in all… i think this confirms that none of the devs main an ele.

EDIT: i havent looked else where but do we have a source for these changes?
EDIT 2: found it in dev tracker https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/devtracker

ProxyDamage.9826:

(…without destroying everything else)

…And then you can focus on fixing what’s broken, such as useless or dysfunctional trait trees and skills.

Cheers.

Just like they did with the original d/d ele build and our current trait trees right!!! Because it worked so well in the past -_- , i wouldnt expect anything good to come from the incoming nerfs.

I think it’s funny actually. The user above me pretty much said it. The fact that we had our survivability and mobility in one build. But it also makes no sense because the old d/d never did as much dmg or had the cc the current wars do as well as their insane hp/toughness and mobility. Even more reason to believe devs play wars.

I love how in the war forum they talk about having only 1 build and they’re actually useful now. Obviously they never played a rifle bleed spec or condi spec. I’ve faced off against some amazing wars before this buff, around the time the condi meta started. But ppl want to just face roll ppl.

I was actually talking to my dad who plays a war and is fairly new to wvw, he’s never done spvp. I told him wars are op and they’re getting a nerf soon… His response was “what!? We have one build that works well and they’re going to nerf it!?!” I simply said…" What do you think happened to the original ele build…?" Then he said," eh yea I guess you’re right. But it’s still bs!"… Join the club pops!!! Lol

Fuzzion.2504:

You are welcome.

http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/elementalist/?1.0|8.5c.h4.8.1c.h1h.d1b.0.0|0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0|1c.71h.1c.71h.1n.71g.1c.71g.1n.b1m.1c.b1m|211.d1b.211.d1b.311.d1b.211.d1b.311.d1b.3v.d1b|0.a1.0.u58c.u56b|15.1|1n.1u.25.1v.29|e

Id rather have a more offensive build personally. But that builds offer some more toughness, but id still not use SoE over AoE, arcane shield, or earth shield.

ImProVocateur.5189:

Ozii.2864,
Yeah. If you want to experience the full hell that Ele gameplay is, then come to Tarnished Coast. I promise you will get a new perspective. This forum should require that a player verify they are on TC before having the option to have an opinion.

Bima.9518,
Celestial does, in fact, kitten Power and Condition Damage, as opposed to Soldier or Dire. The survivability Celestial gives is more than a smidgeon. Think of Celestial as the average value of all stats. Primary and secondary stats on normal gear greatly exceeds Celestial, but is limited. If a character has all it needs in three stats, then normal gear should be used. If a character needs offense and defense, then Celestial is a good item to equip into a number of slots that best supports the role that character plays.

Below is an example of full Carrion and a Carrion/Celestial mix.

Great charts bro! Thanks again for making all of them.

Like you said full celestial is pretty much a no no. But full celestial armor with a nice mix of cav, zerk/valk, pvt trinkets works out really well. From swapping out certain pieces of armor from celestial -> pvt, the difference in your p/v/t is barely noticeable and I would IMHO say that youre better off running full celestial armor and getting all the stats. But if you want to run a bunker build then if suggest running mainly pvt/ppt/clerics if you want extra healing and bd.

With weapons, I’m still running 2 celestial daggers(if I’m running d/d). You can get some more power/prec if you want to run zerk daggers for some extra power and prec. But again IMHO I still like celestial daggers more for the all around stats.

Basically you said everything I just said at the end of your last post. Just wanted to agree and add my 2 cents.

Another thing for ppl to shoot for if they’re serious about wvw. Get the applied fortitude bonus in the wvw abilities line(def against guards line) for the added vit.

I’ve been switching between my s/d FA and the standard d/d 0/10/0/30/30 with being able to toss in staff for zergs. I like the burst and dmg of s/d 100x more.(8-12k phoneix is awesome) but it lacks long battle sustain vs great players. In the end s/d is very gimmicky and fun to run and great for soloing camps extremely fast. But doesn’t cut it vs good players, which some can argue are hard to find.

The d/d 0/10/0/30/30 standard build still works. And I still love it and it’s a nice break from the FA build I’ve been running. It lacks sufficient dmg without might stacks but it makes up for that in the ability to stack it quickly and build up to the big hits. It also makes up with survivability vs any class. Def a harder to master style of play and I remember why I fell in love with it at launch. Even post nerf feast we can still do ok. Most 1v1 aren’t a challenge. But you will find those good players out there that make you work and I live for those fights. 1v2+ is a toss up entirely, are they coordinated, both lvl 80, etc. It depends on the classes and their skill levels, but most players you ace aren’t top tier amazing so you can 1v2+ most of the time. If you know what you’re doing and how to fight said prof.

In the end I still think the best all around build is the standard d/d 0/10/0/30/30 for survivability and sustained dmg and the ability to be able to be extremely useful with staff on the fly.

I haven’t had any problems with my build and I’m the furthest from glassy and I’m def not bunkered.

I’m sure the guardians say/said the same thing about AH and heal away builds. I haven’t lost a fight to an ele yet over the past several months. So im obviously doing something right there’s ways around being a nice hybrid between tanky/glassy. The last time I ran 30 in arcana was when I first made my ele. I hated it then and I hate it now. It’s my point of view on the subject so take it with a grain of salt. You make your build work, I make mine work. Apples to apples really.

My key point to everything was to find what works best for you, and run with it. Be it 0 or 30 in arcana or however you want to spec. If you can make it work and be successful that’s what counts.

ImProVocateur.5189:

Arcana is not wasted points for any weapons. I have rebelled against Arcana since the nerfs started, even though I have felt the drop in quality play ever since. Check out my thread here: my post . Use that spreadsheet to check what I’m saying.

Reasons why players serious about winning feel stuck with Arcana:
.. All the weapon specific traits are in Arcana
.. 2 of 4 “on crit” procs is in Arcana (the 25 freebie trait is one)
.. 1 of 2 “on dodge” procs is in Arcana
.. 4 of 6 Endurance buffs is in Arcana (the 25 freebie trait is one)
.. 2 of 4 “by attunement” multiple spell option traits is in Arcana
.. the most accessible Fury proc is in Arcana
.. freebie boons are in Arcana

If you do not spec 30 in Arcana, then you are rebelling against the system, like me. That makes us both wrong, and to advise others to do the same is irresponsible.

All the weapon trait in arcana are all fluff trait that no one uses.

Endurance by vigor(VI) is your only valid point with the “on crit” in arcana. But even that has little use if you know what you’re fighting and how they’re going to attack you.

Evasive arcana is the biggest crutch ppl have and need to learn to play without it. It’s 9 sec internal cd removal of 1 condition is useless, just like the signet of water with the same passive.

You’re counting 3 “endurance” buffs that mean nothing and just fill a slot in the trait tree because they’re never used it you’re taking arcana. The only endurance trait worth taking if you’re in arcana is renewing stamina(VI). Like I said the other 3 are useless and horrible choices over the main 3 arcana chosen skills. (V, VI, XI)

On crit skills… Again VI is the only worthwhile trait, the minor 25 means nothing to your overall dps.

Like I said, the only worthwhile trait to pick in the arcana line in V. Putting 10 points in arcana to give you 12 second attunement CDs(20%), 10% boon duration, elemental attunement(fire/might, water/regen, air/swiftness, earth/protection), and lastly the minor 5 points giving you fury on attunement.

Instead of wasting 20 points to get EA and renewing stamina. Take 20 points and put them into air, earth, or fire for more dmg, dmg mitigation. Use ER for your heal and trait/gear properly. I’ll say it again, it’s not “irresponsible” to tell people to not put 30 in arcana. It’s advising them that they can be just as successful, if not more so, by allocating those extra 20 points elsewhere.

You’re basically telling people they simply cannot survive without 30 in arcana. You sound like the guardians that were screaming, and still do, about AH or the heal away build. Those builds are nice and make playing easy, yes. But I’m advising them to learn to play smarter and better and succeed without the crutch of lower attunement CDs and EA.

But it also depends on your build and how you spend time in game.

Atrophied.8725:

Treborlavok.3504:

Acotje.5689:

l2mix gear

My build, used in raids with 25people and now in small scale roaming
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fEAQJAoIGAIPOxFWEFeo8YmcsB-jEDBoLBkEBgIAM5DI9RZNBKilhCRVNasqaRWZDT5CQFLpCBIaMA-w

Stack Bloodlust(get 2 weapons to get 25 stacks after 13 kills)
For staff, just switch to Blasting Staff and Bolt to the Heart
Water line can we changed around(faster recharger on Water skills, condi cleanse when you switch to water, aura share)

other builds:
0 15 0 25 30
0 20 0 20 30
0 15 10 15 30

30 arcana is just an old crutch that people need to learn to get over. Max should be 20 if you want to run blasting staff, but its definitely not needed. I would even say that only 10 is the max in arcana and thats just for the extra boons/fury on attunement. If you want more endurance, run a sigil of energy in a wep.

I dunno, I have 30 in arcana and am quite happy with it. It lets me cycle to water that tiny bit earlier if my group needs it (combined with shorter water cooldowns) for regroups, and also gives EA for condi cleanses and blast finishers.

(Source: 210k WvW kills)

I don’t use staff often, if at all. But if I were to use it full time for zerging over my s\d build I would probably go full bunker/buff bot for the Zerg. So in that area, yea sure I can see your point about the arcana line. But for d/x and s/x it’s wasted points that you can better spend in attaining more dmg and dmg mitigation and learning better tactics for solo/small group roaming.

zencow.3651:

ImProVocateur.5189:

zencow.3651,
… and anyone not rebelling against conformity will go 30 Arcana.

In PvE I often advise only 10 Arcana of any. 20 points going into damage traits can give you 25-30% more damage vs the versatility of Evasive Arcana since PvE predictable and easy to avoid.

Exactly.
But so is wvw dmg. Know the classes you’re fighting and how to counter them with better tactics and dmg. Remove and play without the crutch of 20 wasted points in arcana. Ppl who think it’s such a must, simply can’t play without it. I’m taking about you frags/usas spammers… I’m assuming only a few will get that reference.

Acotje.5689:

l2mix gear

My build, used in raids with 25people and now in small scale roaming
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fEAQJAoIGAIPOxFWEFeo8YmcsB-jEDBoLBkEBgIAM5DI9RZNBKilhCRVNasqaRWZDT5CQFLpCBIaMA-w

Stack Bloodlust(get 2 weapons to get 25 stacks after 13 kills)
For staff, just switch to Blasting Staff and Bolt to the Heart
Water line can we changed around(faster recharger on Water skills, condi cleanse when you switch to water, aura share)

other builds:
0 15 0 25 30
0 20 0 20 30
0 15 10 15 30

30 arcana is just an old crutch that people need to learn to get over. Max should be 20 if you want to run blasting staff, but its definitely not needed. I would even say that only 10 is the max in arcana and thats just for the extra boons/fury on attunement. If you want more endurance, run a sigil of energy in a wep.

Kaleban.9834:

There is no valid argument against a zero CD on attunement swapping. Every mechanic that needs to exist to prevent overpowering already exists in the game, such as ICD on skills, traits, sigils and runes.

ANet have already demonstrated that they’re not too worried about it due to Fresh Air and the builds that sprang up allowing Eles to work in a Air Attune in between each swap for the Air 15 trait.

Yes, some traits might need to be re-worked or altered to avoid overpowering the profession, but would end up with a much more interesting and dynamic profession that could use Attunements tactically, rather than as a limiting facet of playstyle and build variety.

Having a 0 attunement cd would cause too much conflict and probably bugs, with the way that some traits have been bugged since beta…. im talking about you LE.

I think having a set 7 sec attunement cd would be perfect. Keeping FA and adding in FA style traits to fire and water would be a nice touch. Reworking the arcana line and moving EA to a master trait, or even a minor 15 trait in arcana to replace LE since its been bugged for so long anyway.

Instead of attunement CD/boon duration in arcana… keep boon duration and add in a celestial style trait for a +to all skills for the “passives”.

Broken since beta.

PlatypusRex.3428:

Treborlavok.3504:

I think one of the biggest problems with no attunement cd would be the minor 15 traits that we could basically endlessly spam while just auto attacking and using other skills we see fit.

1. I mention the need for Internal cooldown for all skills if 0 attune.

2. Wouldn’t you rather see FA die for all to have 0 attune than FA live?

Ah ok, yea an internal cd of atleast 5 secs.. But then honestly is rather just have our attunements set at either 5-7 cd and leave it at that.

I actually like what they did with the FA trait. Getting rid of the arcana attunement cd would also mean they would have to get rid of or severely nerf EA from being able to get in and out or water too easily. Also if you got rid of FA they would then have to rework the air line. Basically, having a 0 attunement cd wouldn’t happen because they would have to basically rework our trait trees entirely.

I think one of the biggest problems with no attunement cd would be the minor 15 traits that we could basically endlessly spam while just auto attacking and using other skills we see fit.

I’m all for lower attunement CDs. The we could totally have a reworked arcana line. Set the bar at a standard 7 seconds between each attunement and let us free up points from arcana. No further attunement swap cd or increase. Just a set 7 seconds. Making FA still viable if ppl want to use it and also taking EA from a grandmaster trait in arcana and putting it in another line at either a master or in fire for a gm to make up for going that high Into power.

Grove.2835:

Treborlavok.3504:

Grove.2835:

So even with celestial gear you will be too glassy and wont be able to deal enough damage to make up for it. I’d say go full bunker dd, you wont kill anything but wont die as fast either and can contribute more to group play. Or try and get the hang of a s/x burst build and keep the damage gear, lol but then you will prob miss your thief once you compare the damage, survivability, mobility and playstyle.

Not in the slightest. I’m in full celestial armor and my offhand dagger is celestial and I’m running cavaliers, zerk/valk, pvt trinkets and my toughness is between 1750-2400.vthats also with 16.5k hp.

You just need to used the proper build and spend your traits accordingly to achieve the best results. I’m using a s/d burst/sustained dmg build.

I don’t know man, I don’t quite agree. I have a few armor sets for my Ele, 3 variants(including celestial) for a s/x build, have run a s/f burst/dps build with success (as much as an ele can get) for the past few months, that last stealth nerf to arcane skills hurt but whatever,thats Anet. IMO the slight gain in survivability from celestial doesn’t make up for the loss in power.Its still not enough damage output or sustain compared to other classes, especially a thief.
PM me if you want to share/discuss builds, cool that you’re having success with it.

O no I’m not denying that knight or zerk wouldn’t be better if you’re looking to min/max a build. I just think that celestial is our best choice to get that all around hybrid between a glass cannon and a bunker. That’s also why I run beryl orbs for the extra 120 power 12% crit dmg and 84 vitality.

Plus with the thief, in order to get their best burst, they’re super glassy. But they have the benefit of being able to drop combat and the best mobility in the game.

Edit: just wanted to add, if you’re going to use celestial gear, it depending entirely on what traits and build you want to go with.

S/D Fresh air burst/sustained dmg build. I use it and love it and have zero problems taking down any class. Some fights are longer then others, ie, stealth Mesmer, bunker build guards/wars, hammer stun wars. But only longer in the sense that they’re either just bunker and have a ton of regen/toughness/protection or they’re incised 90% of the fight.

Most stealth thieves are running condi specs and can’t take even the air attunements burst, let alone the fire attunement burst.

I will say though that it’s taken me a long time to get my build just right and find the perfect gear set and skills to run with. It’s also an entirely different style of play and you need to know who you’re fighting and what they’re (probably) specced for.

But for just a safer all around roaming build, go with a d/d hybrid bunker build that you can slap a staff on when you’re with a Zerg. With d/d you’re basically locked into using the SoR for your heal and then you need evasive arcana for the condi cleanse and maybe even CF depending on who you’re fighting.

That’s one of the reasons I chose s/d over d/d because it let me use ER for my heal and if I’m fighting an super aggressive bunker condi build then I just throw SoW for the passive EA condi cleanse(1 condi cure every 10 secs). But usually I’m good with using my standard skills and haven’t had to put SoW on my bar lately.

My gear, full celestial armor/beryl orbs… Valk scepter,SOF/celestial dagger,SOB… Cavalier, zerk/valk, pvt trinkets.

Grove.2835:

So even with celestial gear you will be too glassy and wont be able to deal enough damage to make up for it. I’d say go full bunker dd, you wont kill anything but wont die as fast either and can contribute more to group play. Or try and get the hang of a s/x burst build and keep the damage gear, lol but then you will prob miss your thief once you compare the damage, survivability, mobility and playstyle.

Not in the slightest. I’m in full celestial armor and my offhand dagger is celestial and I’m running cavaliers, zerk/valk, pvt trinkets and my toughness is between 1750-2400.vthats also with 16.5k hp.

You just need to used the proper build and spend your traits accordingly to achieve the best results. I’m using a s/d burst/sustained dmg build.