Guild Wars 2

Odyssey.2613:

ipan.4356:

…The downside to what you are doing is that you contribute to the feeling that people are not being listened to, that their issues are being dimunized, and you come off as belittling people who have problems with the way the game is being developed.

For example:

• In a different thread he bestowed his knowledge as a ‘shop owner’.
• In a different thread he bestowed his knowledge as an ‘educator’.
• In this thread he is bestowing knowledge as an ‘editor’.
  I can’t wait to hear which career he picks next to inform the unwashed masses.
• Scrolling further down it looks like he went with… ‘moderator’.

ipan.4356:

I’m curious, how do you believe these posts of yours actually aid Anet/GW2 in any way? I don’t believe they do, or at least not as much as you think.

Delusional? If the Anet crew needs/wants to feel good about their work, they can look into the eyes of their spouses and children knowing they are providing food on the table and a warm roof over their heads. Or a stranger that lurks their forums 8 hours a day.

Yeah, I’m going with delusional.

Vayne.8563:

15% of people post on forums. I know this from other forums I’ve moderated. This doesn’t mean 15% read forums. 15% post of them.

Stop dressing your opinions up as concrete fact when you swat at others for doing the exact same thing.

Vayne.8563:

But I still get thank yous from people every single week.

Congratulations?
So is this what drives you to do what you do? 8 hours a day. Every day.

Vayne.8563:

So, a person puts down a complaint, and it’s followed by another complaint and it’s followed by another.

If I were a person just reading, I’d see all complaints and no one actually saying, you know I like this, or this particular complaint is stating things that aren’t quite true, or this is really exaagerated.
That’s 80, maybe 85% of the lurkers, some of whom may not know better. They may, they may not. I don’t know because they don’t talk.

Where do you expect people to lodge their complaints? The Better Business Bureau?

Ultimately, all of this just looks and feels like one big ego stroke.

You know, it’s quite funny that people who have lived their whole lives have held down different jobs and they have different experiences to back up what they say and think. There are things I feel more qualified to comment on because of my experiences and things I feel less qualified to comment on.

I don’t comment on graphics very often because I don’t have an eye for graphics. I did do some alpha testing for a 3D rendering company and I know a bit about it, but I definitely don’t have the experience I’d need to offer an opinion that might hold some weight.

As for the rest of your personal attack, it’s quite okay if you feel this way. I have no problem with it. It doesn’t change anything I said in my OP. Clearly if you had something to say about that, you wouldn’t have had to bother with this diatribe.

Oh and as for the 15% forum thing, if you read entire posts, I did say might be 10%, might be 20%, but in every forum or list or bulletin board I’ve ever had anything to do with, 15% is a pretty good average.

Relating personal experience is perfectly valid. I don’t think many people would disagree with the fact that the majority of people who visit forums don’t post.

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

hydeaut.1758:

Vayne.8563:

But personally I think it’s enough reward for getting through the starter instance. It does what it needs to do.

And this is where you and Anet terribly fail and where their disconnect comes from: they don´t see it through the eyes of the player.

A new player won´t say: “Hey, great, Anet want´s me to teach how to change weapons”, he will see that he receives a reward which is practically the same weapon he already has.

Let´s foresee the conversation we´ll have in a few months:

Forum: “No wonder the free trial wasn´t a success if Anet doesn´t listen to feedback”.

You: “It would have been if the game would not have been talked down”.

There´s always a way out, isn´t it?

Really?

So a new player to an MMO goes through a five minute starter instance and expects what? A precusor? Give me a break.

A new player starting on his first instance getting his first reward for the starter instance is probably expecting basic beginner stuff.

But the rest of the leveling experience offers far more rewards and it originally did. Maybe you’re just having trouble seeing it from a new player perspective.

Guild Wars 1 you got like no rewards for doing anything in the beginning. The rewards were minscule. No one cared, because it was the beginning.

Nothing you get in any MMO in the first ten levels that I can think of is something you’ll fondly remember a week later.

i think the point is, they may have more interest in a different weapon at that point rather than the same weapon.

But we really are talking 10 minutes into the game. New weapons drop more often now, remember? I had new weapons a couple of minutes later. I’m still not sure that what they would rather have is an issue, because no one is usually thinking that way.

New player in a game, you see what drops. You don’t get your first reward in a game and think I’d rather have X. It comes fast enough anyway.

ipan.4356:

Vayne.8563:

Tachenon.5270:

Vayne.8563:

Their game is losing ground? Evidence?

Megaserver.
Constant twiddling with/recycling of existing content.
Occasional splashes of new content (that at least is no longer quite so temporary).

Some might also cite the /e trumpets Return of the CDIs.

Mega server is an efficiency measure. Companies become more efficient whether theyr’e doing well or not. Having a bunch of servers with small numbers of people on them is wasteful.

So, small numbers of people on a server isn’t evidence that of…small numbers of people?

You’re starting to go all 1984 double-speak now.

I think the whole point, is that those servers have small numbers of people because people left the game – they quit.

Thus the megaserver.

The megaserver is evidence that people are leaving the game.

So what’s your point? More whitewashing…….

Do you think WoW is a successful MMO? Strangely enough WoW has dead zones on many servers and has had for a long time. Why? Because people tend to congregate in specific zones. This is true in every MMORPG I’ve ever made. So if this game is failing because of few people in zones, then all MMORPGs are failing because of few people in zones.

Here you go, WoW did it too. Cross realm zones for low pop zones:

http://wowpedia.org/Cross-realm_zones

Do you know any MMOs more successful than WoW? I don’t. And they had to have cross realm zones too, because certain zones are dead.

Guild Wars 2 had a larger number of servers and a large number of zones. The zones are quite convoluted. You could have more people in a zone in a nearby cave and never know they’re there.

So yeah, unless you can come up with an MMO more popular than World of Warcraft, I think we’re done here.

Rogue.7856:

Not sure why my topic title keeps getting edited. I thought it was ok to express my opinion in a none offensive manner. I feel that this is not offense and more importantly factual to the point of the discussion. Please don’t remove “is a complete joke”… because it truly is a joke. A very sad and insulting one…

What is offensive and insulting and has no place in the game is calling this system you implemented ‘New’ and ‘Rewarding’ over the old system… It is the exact opposite of this. You have stripped out the hint system and gated content, calling it ‘rewarding’. You must be joking! You can have every single ‘reward’ I get from leveling, which are for the most part nothing new than what you started out with.

There is nothing “New” or “Rewarding” from the new system. Its complete trash… please take it back and give me back my ability to play the game freely.

The fact that you can’t see calling it a complete joke is in itself problematical. I can see a problem with it. Nor do I think saying it’s complete trash is constructive.

You never had the ability to play the game freely. Skills still unlocked at different levels, and the weapon swap still unlocked at different levels. To say that you played freely before is a misnomer.

But most of all, the new system does end up being more rewarding, and that’s a fact. You may not like the rewards at lower levels, but since there were no rewards at higher levels, the new system is in fact, factually more rewarding.

TooBz.3065:

I think the problem isn’t that the reward isn’t sufficient for a start instance. I think the problem is that the reward is less than it was.

No one likes having something taken away or delayed. It’s like being told that instead of getting a weekly paycheck, you’ll go no pay in January, but your pay in March, May, and July will be increased to make up for it.

Except that over all the rewards are greater. I hit level 59 on an alt today and got rare boots. That’s something that didn’t used to happen.

So getting a slightly better main hand instead of the off hand in the starter instance is pretty much meaningless in the context, since over all, rewards for leveling have been increased. In fact, they barely existed before.

hydeaut.1758:

Vayne.8563:

But personally I think it’s enough reward for getting through the starter instance. It does what it needs to do.

And this is where you and Anet terribly fail and where their disconnect comes from: they don´t see it through the eyes of the player.

A new player won´t say: “Hey, great, Anet want´s me to teach how to change weapons”, he will see that he receives a reward which is practically the same weapon he already has.

Let´s foresee the conversation we´ll have in a few months:

Forum: “No wonder the free trial wasn´t a success if Anet doesn´t listen to feedback”.

You: “It would have been if the game would not have been talked down”.

There´s always a way out, isn´t it?

Really?

So a new player to an MMO goes through a five minute starter instance and expects what? A precusor? Give me a break.

A new player starting on his first instance getting his first reward for the starter instance is probably expecting basic beginner stuff.

But the rest of the leveling experience offers far more rewards and it originally did. Maybe you’re just having trouble seeing it from a new player perspective.

Guild Wars 1 you got like no rewards for doing anything in the beginning. The rewards were minscule. No one cared, because it was the beginning.

Nothing you get in any MMO in the first ten levels that I can think of is something you’ll fondly remember a week later.

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

SidewayS.3789:

They know far more about the game and the players than anyone complaining about the changes does.

Nope. They dont. That’s why their game is losing ground, and above all thing, i think Anet is somekind of hardcore masochist.

And for these mindless fanboys : Keep it real, until you’ll realize, that this game is no longer the same game from 2 years ago.

Their game is losing ground? Evidence?

Their game is doing what almost all MMOs have to deal with in their lifetime. It’s dealing with aging. During the last quarter both ESO and Wildstar were released. I don’t really think, all things considered, they’re losing ground as fast as you think.

And yes, this game is NOT the same game from two years ago. 100% true. In some ways it’s better and some ways it’s worth. 2 years ago, we had neither fractals nor drytop, both of which I like. There were far more bugs back then then there are now. And a lot of the game has fundamentally changed. If you like the changes, the game is better than it was, and if you don’t like the changes, the game is worse.

But you know, I can’t think of any MMO I’ve ever played that was fundamentally the same two years after launch. Not one.

Hell, games like Final Fantasy had to be closed down and rewritten completely. Star Wars ToR went free to play. They’re making major changes to ESO and moved the launch of the console back because of it. Even Archeage has had fundamental changes from 1.0 to 1.2

most successful mmos begin an upward trend after about 2 years. they keep most old players, and bring some new ones, the drop off is what happens after the initial game hits. Then the strong ones build playerbase for a long time, till they get old and die.

look at ff14 ARR, its not everyones cup of tea, but its playerbase is growing, not shrinking.
look at WoW year 2.

sure a lot of failing edge case mmo continue to bleed players until they die, or have to do some huge change to adapt, if they successfully adapt, they then start gaining ground and getting more players. like lotro swtor, lineage, etc.

point is, losing players/profits at this point is not expected, its a sign of something going wrong.
How they adapt to the bleed, will determine the future of the game.

Final fantasy had to close completely and relaunch. It’s now starting to come into it’s own, but how many people are actually playing? Do you know?

I suspect Guild Wars 2 is doing about as well as Final Fantasy. The Raptr numbers seem to support that anyway. Still waiting for this months to come out.

Tachenon.5270:

Vayne.8563:

Sauncho.8076:

“Colin said, and I believe this, that the uptake of new players was absolutely not good enough and that until that was taken care of they wouldn’t be able to provide those other experiences.”

As I stated, here in lies the problem. Leadership and decision making! Instead of saying to themselves….hey, the uptake in new players is not good enough. We should probably make an expansion and revitalize the game. You know, get people interested in the game again. This will in turn bring players back and bring in new players who see all the advertisements, etc.

But instead they decided to revamp the leveling experience. Which in turn kitten’d off much of the player base (again, IMO).

Very bad decision if you ask me, one which falls squarely within the lap of ANETs leadership and vision.

Okay let’s get this straight. They come out with an expansion. It’ll be level 80 content, because it’s an expansion. So people buy the game, and then they get to level 20 and stop, because uptake is good and what have they accomplished.

Before they release an expansion uptake has to be better. That’s the simple logic of the situation.

Ideally, an expansion would introduce at least one new playable race and a new 1-15 starter zone in which players of that race would begin their adventures, along with many more new zones full of fun stuff to do and cool things to see ranging from level 15 and up to level 80. Mass quantities of new content spread across the entirety of the game. How about a new profession to go with all that new content? Heck, yeah!

Presumably the level up of that race though, following the current patterns wouldn’t help. The experience has to be better, or there’s no point in making an expansion. Anet seems to think so, and they have more software development experience than I do.

It’s easy to think an expansion will solve all problems if it solves your problems. But that’s not neceesarily the case.

Pirlipat.2479:

Show me where I have insulted anyone.

I’m not saying you did. But that doesn’t mean people haven’t. On reddit, one guy called for a specific dev to be fired. Even here, one guy defended his right to call the devs stupid. Because it was tough love.

No one has a right to call the devs stupid. It’s not a right you get. People overstate cases, threaten to leave, try to get people to boycott the game, and zero of that is actually constructive. If you want to help the game, list your points calmly and logically and stop being so aggressive. All that does is turn reasonable people against you.

I’m not targeting a single person in this thread. But the amount of misinformation I’ve seen, the amount of threatening, the amount of insults was way off the scale.

Tachenon.5270:

Vayne.8563:

Their game is losing ground? Evidence?

Megaserver.
Constant twiddling with/recycling of existing content.
Occasional splashes of new content (that at least is no longer quite so temporary).

Some might also cite the /e trumpets Return of the CDIs.

None of this is evidence for losing ground, unless you already have a bias looking at it. Mega server is an efficiency measure. Companies become more efficient whether theyr’e doing well or not. Having a bunch of servers with small numbers of people on them is wasteful. Plenty of content came out, much of it temporary. That was a design flaw. If all that stuff was still in the game we wouldn’t have the complaints we have now.

The CDIs came back as a direct result of player complaints based largely on the removal of content.

Pirlipat.2479:

Vayne.8563:

Pirlipat.2479:

Well, when I started I was new to the game too and I loved the old leveling experience. So when they say it was not good enough and that it had to be changed in the way it is now they say at the same time that my experience doesn’t matter. Wow thanks alot you told me this.

Not what they’re saying at all. They’re saying they’ve run tests and not enough people play past the starting levels. They start playing, they get a few levels in and stop playing. That’s what they found through testing.

Now this game survives or doesn’t on it’s ability to attract new people. Why? Because all games have natural attrition.

If you want to take this personally, go right ahead, but business decisions aren’t personal. The fact is (unless Anet is lying which I don’t believe) that testing and experience and metrics showed that too many people didn’t like the leveling experience.

My point to be more precise. People are giving Feedback. What you are doing is constantly telling People that their Feedback doesn’t matter and that they should shut up cause A-Net is all knowing and you like it oh and your wife does too. It not your Business to speak for A-Net. They can perfectely do this for themselves you are not in Charge. Give your own feedback but talking for them is not your Business.

Actually I never said shut up and I never told people not to do feedback. I have consistently said, if you have feedback, how about presenting it in a fair manner, without embellishing, or making stuff up, or threatening to leave, or encouraging people to boycott.

Because constructive criticism is good. But insulting hard working devs personally because you don’t like an update isn’t criticism.

Sauncho.8076:

“Colin said, and I believe this, that the uptake of new players was absolutely not good enough and that until that was taken care of they wouldn’t be able to provide those other experiences.”

As I stated, here in lies the problem. Leadership and decision making! Instead of saying to themselves….hey, the uptake in new players is not good enough. We should probably make an expansion and revitalize the game. You know, get people interested in the game again. This will in turn bring players back and bring in new players who see all the advertisements, etc.

But instead they decided to revamp the leveling experience. Which in turn kitten’d off much of the player base (again, IMO).

Very bad decision if you ask me, one which falls squarely within the lap of ANETs leadership and vision.

Okay let’s get this straight. They come out with an expansion. It’ll be level 80 content, because it’s an expansion. So people buy the game, and then they get to level 20 and stop, because uptake is good and what have they accomplished.

Before they release an expansion uptake has to be better. That’s the simple logic of the situation.

Pirlipat.2479:

Well, when I started I was new to the game too and I loved the old leveling experience. So when they say it was not good enough and that it had to be changed in the way it is now they say at the same time that my experience doesn’t matter. Wow thanks alot you told me this.

Not what they’re saying at all. They’re saying they’ve run tests and not enough people play past the starting levels. They start playing, they get a few levels in and stop playing. That’s what they found through testing.

Now this game survives or doesn’t on it’s ability to attract new people. Why? Because all games have natural attrition.

If you want to take this personally, go right ahead, but business decisions aren’t personal. The fact is (unless Anet is lying which I don’t believe) that testing and experience and metrics showed that too many people didn’t like the leveling experience.

Sauncho.8076:

Vayne.8563:

Sauncho.8076:

For me, it’s not so much the revamp of the earlier levels that’s the issue. For me, I have a problem with ANETs priorities.

I understand ANET has their metrics and so on and so forth. They obviously believe revamping the lower levels will make a better experience for new players, and therefore increase retention and the bottom line.

However, I already have the impression ANET is under staffed. Whether that’s accurate I don’t know.

But it seems to me when PvP has yet to receive a new mode, WvW updates are lacking, no new races, no new professions, no new weapon skills, only minor trait changes, balancing every 6 months, limited in game gear since the start compared to the gem store, limited dungeon additions, etc., why would they choose to revamp noob leveling. Obviously that’s resources taken away from other important facets of the game.

ANET is the only one who can really measure the impact of revamping the noob experience as compared to the things I mentioned above. But it doesn’t take a genius to realize that the player base did not prioritize revamping the leveling experience over expansion like additions.

You can make a better leveling experience all you want, but as some point these new players will also become vets, and then they too will want what the rest of the player base wants.

Anet launched in China in April. They had to have player retention there. It would be highly illogical to launch in China while retaining less players if they know there’s a problem with retention.

They had to modify the version of the Chinese release for us, but it wasn’t a from scratch job, so it took less time/energy.

And this wasn’t a content patch it was a feature patch. Whatever they’re working on, they’re still working on.

Even if this is true, I still have a problem with the mindset. Regardless if the revamp was a modification and regardless if the last patch was a feature patch and not a content patch.

In the end, it’s been two years and hardly any of the things I mentioned before have been done (IMO).

This is clearly as leadership / managerial / vision issue. What direction do they want to take the game. I won’t speak for the rest of the player base as you (Vayne) have countered that point, but in my opinion they need to rearrange their priorities in order to make me happy.

Trust me, if the combat in this game wasn’t so darn good I would probably have moved on by now out of boredom.

Colin said, and I believe this, that the uptake of new players was absolutely not good enough and that until that was taken care of they wouldn’t be able to provide those other experiences. Seems not unreasonable to me.

Sauncho.8076:

For me, it’s not so much the revamp of the earlier levels that’s the issue. For me, I have a problem with ANETs priorities.

I understand ANET has their metrics and so on and so forth. They obviously believe revamping the lower levels will make a better experience for new players, and therefore increase retention and the bottom line.

However, I already have the impression ANET is under staffed. Whether that’s accurate I don’t know.

But it seems to me when PvP has yet to receive a new mode, WvW updates are lacking, no new races, no new professions, no new weapon skills, only minor trait changes, balancing every 6 months, limited in game gear since the start compared to the gem store, limited dungeon additions, etc., why would they choose to revamp noob leveling. Obviously that’s resources taken away from other important facets of the game.

ANET is the only one who can really measure the impact of revamping the noob experience as compared to the things I mentioned above. But it doesn’t take a genius to realize that the player base did not prioritize revamping the leveling experience over expansion like additions.

You can make a better leveling experience all you want, but as some point these new players will also become vets, and then they too will want what the rest of the player base wants.

Anet launched in China in April. They had to have player retention there. It would be highly illogical to launch in China while retaining less players if they know there’s a problem with retention.

They had to modify the version of the Chinese release for us, but it wasn’t a from scratch job, so it took less time/energy.

And this wasn’t a content patch it was a feature patch. Whatever they’re working on, they’re still working on.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Morning All,

I have just woken up and and am feeling decidedly unwell.

I am heading back to bed and will be back online tomorrow.

Chris

Feel better, Chris!

Lodius.5392:

Vayne.8563:

IndigoSundown.5419:

I’ve gone through phases in which I’ve been highly critical of the game, and phases where I’ve been very supportive. In both phases, I’ve tried to be fair. My drop luck is, however, generally well below claims I’ve seen on these forums. As far as drops in other games go, my GW2 drop luck has remained dismally bad.

I think in general, Guild Wars 2 is a trickle game. Stuff trickles in, but fairly regularly. I get enough stuff to salvage for silk. Silk isn’t exciting but I need it. And it sells okay. But yeah, it’s not a precusor.

Because you can get anything in any zone, for the most part anyway, the trickle system makes sense, only from an economic point of view.

Anet doesn’t want to make Orr so amazingly profitable that everyone stays there. By trickling stuff in, it means you can play everywhere. If everyone got obviously better results in one place, everyone would go to that place.

If they made the game more profitable across the board, inflation would cause everything to spiral out of control. People think there’s inflation in this game. I’m assuming they’ve never played a game with real inflation.

That is relatively under control because you can’t get good drops everywhere. It certainly makes the game less “exciting”.

I’m not complaining of inflation… I have played games with unbelievable inflation. (looking at you DC Universe). It wasn’t uncommon to see things priced at millions of dollars each.

My concern is potential behind hidden code that appears to play a part in this games drops/etc.

I know, but I’m a great supporter of this game and I don’t usually or often get great drops. I was answering someone else’s post in this thread.

It still pertains to your answer because most of the time, most of us are going to get meh drops due to the system.

Humans love to see patterns in things, even if no pattern exists.

ipan.4356:

Vayne

The downside to what you are doing is that you contribute to the feeling that people are not being listened to, that their issues are being dimunized, and you come off as belittling people who have problems with the way the game is being developed.

This means that you are actually increasing the level of vitriol of these posters.

If you enjoy the game so much, and you think it’s doing so wonderfully – then go play it.

Stop spending so much time on forums telling people who have issues with it that they’re wrong – the truth is, Anet can do that themselves.

Are you worried or something about the health of this game? Is that why you are white knighting so much?

You end up ostracizing people who want their issues addressed, and after a time, some people may even begin to associate your opinions with those of Anet – reinforcing the idea that Anet (like you) is out of touch with it’s playerbase.

I’m curious, how do you believe these posts of yours actually aid Anet/GW2 in any way? I don’t believe they do, or at least not as much as you think. An occasional post of course is fine – but you set yourself up, painted yourself into a corner – to the point that some people believe you are an Anet employee.

How is that productive or useful?

I don’t believe it is. I think your constant defending of Anet (and not you alone – most of the other white knights as well) do more harm than good.

Because it looks like whitewashing, and that’s what people will become convinced it is.

Let the game – and Anet – speak for themselves.

White knighting does more harm than good (generally – it’s ok to offer praise once in a while when they do something right – but not what you’re doing currently).

This is a very good point. The first part of your post, not the second. This is how I see it.

15% of people post on forums. I know this from other forums I’ve moderated. This doesn’t mean 15% read forums. 15% post of them. And you know it might be 20% or 10%, but it’s a small percent of people reading are actually posting.

So, a person puts down a complaint, and it’s followed by another complaint and it’s followed by another.

If I were a person just reading, I’d see all complaints and no one actually saying, you know I like this, or this particular complaint is stating things that aren’t quite true, or this is really exaagerated.

That’s 80, maybe 85% of the lurkers, some of whom may not know better. They may, they may not. I don’t know because they don’t talk.

Would it surprise you that I’ve received thank you mails from people on these forums for posting? Fairly often actually.

You’re right. Sometimes the stuff I say gets people riled up. And a few people used to be against me and aren’t anymore as well.

But I still get thank yous from people every single week.

Someone must be getting something out of it.

Ensign.2189:

I’m sure A.Net has noticed all the crying on the forums. There is a good reason they use broad-based metrics and focal groups to evaluate changes; there will always be some subset of players who will complain about anything and those players will always be doing so on the forums.

It’s not even remotely representative of the player base as a whole.

I’m beginning to think these changes still hit a broader percentage of the playerbase than Anet was willing to accept as collateral damage, though.

As much as I don’t mind the changes personally, I’m sure Anet is working hard to change the patch to make it more palatable to more people.

IndigoSundown.5419:

I’ve gone through phases in which I’ve been highly critical of the game, and phases where I’ve been very supportive. In both phases, I’ve tried to be fair. My drop luck is, however, generally well below claims I’ve seen on these forums. As far as drops in other games go, my GW2 drop luck has remained dismally bad.

I think in general, Guild Wars 2 is a trickle game. Stuff trickles in, but fairly regularly. I get enough stuff to salvage for silk. Silk isn’t exciting but I need it. And it sells okay. But yeah, it’s not a precusor.

Because you can get anything in any zone, for the most part anyway, the trickle system makes sense, only from an economic point of view.

Anet doesn’t want to make Orr so amazingly profitable that everyone stays there. By trickling stuff in, it means you can play everywhere. If everyone got obviously better results in one place, everyone would go to that place.

If they made the game more profitable across the board, inflation would cause everything to spiral out of control. People think there’s inflation in this game. I’m assuming they’ve never played a game with real inflation.

That is relatively under control because you can’t get good drops everywhere. It certainly makes the game less “exciting”.

Man if this was true, I’d have a packload of precusors. lol

Ashen.2907:

Just because someone has an issue, and expresses it, with a particular system or change does not mean that they have not looked at the big picture. It is a bit of a stretch to claim that if someone’s opinion on something differs from yours they just aren’t seeing the whole picture.

You’re right, of course. Just because someone has an issue and expresses is doesn’t mean they haven’t looked at the big picture. 100% right.

I had a guy on this very forum say it was okay to call devs stupid because – tough love. Really. Someone said that.

The thing is, some people do see the big picture, but if you think that the majority of players do, I’m not quite sure what to tell you. I know this post isn’t going to stop complaints. But it might give some people some insight into why systems don’t always seem to make sense. That’s all.

This post is for people who don’t know this stuff. I never claimed it was everyone. I never even claimed it was everyone who’s complaining.

Ameepa.6793:

Vayne, just let it go. You cannot change everyone in game forums to behave like you want them to. Remember what happened last time, about a year ago? You got so upset that you decided to leave these forums completely. Now you are back doing the exact same thing again.

Just let it go and enjoy the game. You don’t have to upset yourself like this.

I don’t know why you think I’m upset. Because I’m not. Not even a little. Sure a lot of people won’t listen to this, in part because I’m me, in part because some people would like to complain, but there are people who might read this and get something out of it too. I promise I’m not upset in the slightest. Bemused is a closer word, to be honest.

DonQuack.9025:

tldr:
Vayne to community: Stop whining.
/thread

Not what I was saying at all. You obviously think it’s a good thing to pick apart systems without looking at the whole system. I just happen to disagree.

Ishtar.6457:

Vayne.8563:

Ishtar.6457:

I will just called it middle age syndrome. never saw someone saying me me me me me me me me me I I I I I I I I in so many thread in a game forum. what are you trying to proof man? go away already.

And you don’t think most people complaining aren’t saying me me me. This change affects me? lol Okay.

Oh yes they do, but not as much as YOU do, and they don’t add their CV about being editor etc and a brief history of their life in a random game forum all day everyday. IJS.

People bring up their “CV” all the time to try to show that they have some expertise. I’ve seen people say they’re programmers, and they’re game designers and even that they’ve played MMOs since 1996 or whatever. That’s human nature.

However in this case, this was a lesson I learned while editing and I think it’s appropos. If you don’t, you’re free not to.

AnAspieKitten.5732:

“One profession that everyone said was overpowered. "

As far as I know Warrior suffers from its past. For exemple, it’s like the third or fourth DPS if I remember well, yet he is wanted in dungeon because it’s easy to play and because banners. So what do we do ?
1) Nerf it so it’s not wanted anymore and to doom its dps
2) Bring up the skillcap while buffing the class if necessary (and that’s not hard to do, as a warrior main since release I totally admit the class has a some things that are pretty much lowering the skillcap without any reason, mostly some traits)

snip

That’s talking from the player enjoyement point of view, which a developer should always aim at. Then again, this comes too late ; as I said, Warrior is a low skillfloor class, which means anyone can do well with few practice, basically, but some other class are, when mastered, much better (still talking from a PvE perspective since greatsword was used there). If you nerf it, you make it useless at some point. Rather if you buff its skillcap and potential, then you make it more interesting, with more depth. The more singular every class is, the better it is, and I believe this nerf comes too late but also does contradict the “easy to play, hard to master” philosophy that makes the game more interesting (and also works much better for e-sport) and more fun because of how you can’t hit a certain point and go “yup, I can’t get anything more from my class, time to move on”.

Also, NPE has been basically “take away some things, ask the players to unlock them, slow down the progression so they don’t feel like they have everything too early, problem solved”, and again this is not healthy. They should’ve aimed at creating content, not locking some.
This patch is a huge change for veterans and the game was already really, really easy for new players, probably the easiest or one of the easiest MMO on the market, what they did make the leveling less enjoyable, thus I’m having troubles seeing where it’s gonna pay off and bring newer players.

Some players main a class. Some enjoy making alts again and again. ANet screwed them up this update and they know it, from what they said, and will fix it. For them, it’s not “details”, it’s their whole pleasure. It’s not focusing on the footnote to tell you the book is badly written, these are important changes and it’s also important people tell ANet when they’re unhappy.

The day noone comes on the forum will be the day the update is perfect, we already know that. I do think ANet did a good job a lot of the time and for the whole game, that doesn’t stop me from poiting out what I think to be mistakes and that’s our role, as player, to do so.

Also, look at their communication thread : they receive massive compliments. If they did that earlier, I’m 100% positive on the fact they’d get much less rocks thrown at them, because they very rarely showed up in person before, we weren’t even sure they were really reading, which plays in the fact that people feel like multiplying the “I don’t like that” threads and not compliment them, “I quit” and all the like, because there are more chances that when they take a glimpse at the forums they see what’s wrong. Now if they start truly communicating with us like they seem to be doing, they’ll get a lot more gratitude and positiveness, because GW2 community wants to see their game improve, because we know it’s unique and different and we like to play it, and as such it’s heartbreaking when they screw our part of the fun up. We just want it to get better. Most players are not here to say “.l. u” to the devs, they want them to fix the mistakes they make.

Arguably, in some ways the game is harder for new players. Even some older players are saying it’s more challenging now, because they have less skills and not a fully working downed state. I won’t look for the threads but I’ve seen it mentioned at least twice.

I know when I’m going through starter zones now, I have to move more. I can’t depend on skills. I have to be more careful because I don’t get those other slots that used to protect me unlocked as early.

Be that as it may, we’ve always had level gated abilities and I’m not so sure the time to unlock most of it is so vastly different, that it’s worthy of the outcry we’ve heard.

There are definitely issues with it. I’m not sure why Anet took away the hints section, even if they took away the achievement. They should put it back. It’s weird not to have access to hints and tips all the time.

I don’t think the choices made with the downed state are right at all, but it has nothing to do with level gating.

And I think it’s problematic that leveling with some professions for the first 15 levels is much harder/longer than leveling with other professions.

But over all, I think it’s a step in the right direction. It was always going to need adjustment.

Straylight.7529:

Vayne.8563:

Galphar.3901:

Vayne.8563:

Straylight.7529:

Andred.1087:

winterchillz.2564:

So, as you’ve probably noticed ANet, a very big part of the community is unhappy

snip

snip

snip

A game made for them would increasingly exclude a large number of other people. The more you make it for the top 5% the more the bottom 95% will feel disenfranchised. The more you make it for the top 10% the more the bottom 90% will feel disenfranchised.

The question has always been this. Is the forum a microcosm for the entire game’s player base, or is it a select few who think more deeply about their gaming experience and want something different than the vast majority of people who don’t post want.

I moderated a forum called guildwars2forum.com a long time ago and I had access to the numbers. Less than 15% of the people visiting that forum ever left a post. That means that, at least on that forum, 85% of the people never had a say. Not here, there.

But I’ve moderated other groups that weren’t forums, mostly yahoo groups, in the past and I’ve found the same 15% rule applies. I’ve never been in a group with more than 20% of people reading it ever posted.

Those who post are not necessarily representative of the majority of the player base. And that’s only lurkers and posters. What percentage of those who play never even lurk?

The mind boggles.

Then riddle me this Vayne. Why is A-Net doing the CDI’s? If we forum goers are such a small percentage of the actual players, why ask for our imput on subjects that will effect the future of the game?

The obvious answer is that people on the forum could very well have valuable ideas. That doesn’t mean the forum’s CDIs will dictate what Anet does or doesn’t do.

You see, saying that the forum are the top 15% of the playbase (possibly even the top 5%) isn’t hard to figure out. You ask them stuff because they can have insight. Individuals can give you ideas. This is called brainstorming.

I had a great critique group at one point and often I got a good idea from them. But just as often what they said would have changed the story I wanted to tell and that would have made it impossible for me to tell it.

Simply put, brainstorming is smart. It gives you more ideas. Even if you can’t use the ideas in whole, it can spark other ideas.

But you don’t have to be a majority to brain storm. Anet still can’t just take forum posters into account, because we’re not a majority, almost certainly.

Yes, we are the majority who express their opinions. The only majority you can listen to.

“Hey guys, let’s listen to those people over here for some cool brainstorming but not those guys over there, who’re dissatisfied with the direction GW2 is going”.

This is a very simplistic approach to the problem. Let’s make the analogy a simple one.

Let’s say you have five kids. One is outspoken. Knows what he wants. Dominant. So you say, let’s go out for dinner, where do you want to go?

And the dominant kid says chinese! I want chinese. The other kids kowtow to him, because maybe they don’t want to get into an argument with him. There are no less than ten people in my guild who used to post on the forums and left because the environment was too toxic for them and it affected their enjoyment of the game. I’m one of the last three people in my guild to post here. I’m sure the number was closer to 20 at some point. They got tired of the negativity.

So we go to chinese, even though four of the five kids may not like it as much. But as a father, I know that some kids don’t like it from prior experience and I also know they’re not going to speak up. So what do I do. Listen to the one kid, or try to make a decision that’s fair to everyone.

I asked because you know, maybe someone will come up with a good idea that we can use. But using the one idea by the outspoken guy might not sit well with the other 80% of the kids.

Anet is in the same boat. There’s a very outspoken small percentage who have interests that might not jibe with the rest of the playerbase. And while the rest of the playerbase may not talk here, there are other ways to see what they like and don’t like.

Anet would like run into serious complications if they didn’t take that playerbase into account.

SidewayS.3789:

They know far more about the game and the players than anyone complaining about the changes does.

Nope. They dont. That’s why their game is losing ground, and above all thing, i think Anet is somekind of hardcore masochist.

And for these mindless fanboys : Keep it real, until you’ll realize, that this game is no longer the same game from 2 years ago.

Their game is losing ground? Evidence?

Their game is doing what almost all MMOs have to deal with in their lifetime. It’s dealing with aging. During the last quarter both ESO and Wildstar were released. I don’t really think, all things considered, they’re losing ground as fast as you think.

And yes, this game is NOT the same game from two years ago. 100% true. In some ways it’s better and some ways it’s worth. 2 years ago, we had neither fractals nor drytop, both of which I like. There were far more bugs back then then there are now. And a lot of the game has fundamentally changed. If you like the changes, the game is better than it was, and if you don’t like the changes, the game is worse.

But you know, I can’t think of any MMO I’ve ever played that was fundamentally the same two years after launch. Not one.

Hell, games like Final Fantasy had to be closed down and rewritten completely. Star Wars ToR went free to play. They’re making major changes to ESO and moved the launch of the console back because of it. Even Archeage has had fundamental changes from 1.0 to 1.2

Galphar.3901:

Vayne.8563:

Straylight.7529:

Andred.1087:

winterchillz.2564:

So, as you’ve probably noticed ANet, a very big part of the community is unhappy

Laughing so hard right now

Do you even know how small the forum community is compared to the entire playerbase? Devs have already said it is minuscule; I would wager less than 2%.

Are there really this many people on here incapable of seeing past their own noses?

Logical fallacy. The majority of people do not voice their opinions. You can not listen to a voice that doesn’t exist. Therefore, you have to listen to those people who express their opinions. These people can be found on the official forums/reddit/popular fansites.

I’m getting tired of the old argument “the forum represents a minority, therefore their opinions are irrelevant”. The forum represents the majority of people who voice their opinions and is therefore not irrelevant.

Actually this is the logical fallacy.

Point 1. This game is played by X number of people.
Point 2. Only Y number of people have an opinion they voice.
Point 3. Any change made to accomodate Y people won’t just affect Y people. It’ll affect the X people too. Anet can’t just make choices based on a small group of people giving that advice, unless they’re relatively sure those changes would go over well.

As an example, the hardest core players who want challenges all over the place are probably not a majority. But they are very vocal on forums. They’re the min/maxers and the people who develop the metas. Logically speaking they are the most vested and smartest players in the game.

A game made for them would increasingly exclude a large number of other people. The more you make it for the top 5% the more the bottom 95% will feel disenfranchised. The more you make it for the top 10% the more the bottom 90% will feel disenfranchised.

The question has always been this. Is the forum a microcosm for the entire game’s player base, or is it a select few who think more deeply about their gaming experience and want something different than the vast majority of people who don’t post want.

I moderated a forum called guildwars2forum.com a long time ago and I had access to the numbers. Less than 15% of the people visiting that forum ever left a post. That means that, at least on that forum, 85% of the people never had a say. Not here, there.

But I’ve moderated other groups that weren’t forums, mostly yahoo groups, in the past and I’ve found the same 15% rule applies. I’ve never been in a group with more than 20% of people reading it ever posted.

Those who post are not necessarily representative of the majority of the player base. And that’s only lurkers and posters. What percentage of those who play never even lurk?

The mind boggles.

Then riddle me this Vayne. Why is A-Net doing the CDI’s? If we forum goers are such a small percentage of the actual players, why ask for our imput on subjects that will effect the future of the game?

The obvious answer is that people on the forum could very well have valuable ideas. That doesn’t mean the forum’s CDIs will dictate what Anet does or doesn’t do.

You see, saying that the forum are the top 15% of the playbase (possibly even the top 5%) isn’t hard to figure out. You ask them stuff because they can have insight. Individuals can give you ideas. This is called brainstorming.

I had a great critique group at one point and often I got a good idea from them. But just as often what they said would have changed the story I wanted to tell and that would have made it impossible for me to tell it.

Simply put, brainstorming is smart. It gives you more ideas. Even if you can’t use the ideas in whole, it can spark other ideas.

But you don’t have to be a majority to brain storm. Anet still can’t just take forum posters into account, because we’re not a majority, almost certainly.

Ishtar.6457:

I will just called it middle age syndrome. never saw someone saying me me me me me me me me me I I I I I I I I in so many thread in a game forum. what are you trying to proof man? go away already.

And you don’t think most people complaining aren’t saying me me me. This change affects me? lol Okay.

Ashen.2907:

A single line can ruin a story.

Even so what many people are complaining about are the game equivalent of the first few chapters of the book. If those early chapters are bland, not engaging, etc then the impact is potentially absolute…the reader puts it down and never picks it up again.

For what its worth the Warrior was not universally agreed to be OP. It was arguably the easiest profession with which to produce high end results but other professions could achieve comparable or better, but required greater player engagement to do so. Its generally a good idea to have a profession capable of producing good results that is catered to mediocre player skill for the simple reason that many players will not be ome more skilled regardless of opportunity. Having a profession that provides such players with an avenue into higher end play increases the accessibility of a games most challenging content without dumbing it down.

The entire game is supposed to be endgame. Dumbing down beginning zones affects this aspect of the game. Making mobs weaker compared to launch while characters are more powerful effectively reduces the amount of game available to veterans.

The NPE changes may only affect a fraction of the game and is targeted at new players, but it affects veterans as well. How much of the game must be taken away from veterans before its acceptable for them to speak out against it ?

This patch has some elements that concern me but most of it doesnt bother me. Evens so the fact that it doesn’t bother me does not mean that it doesnt negatively affect others to a degree that impacts their enjoyment of the game. Trying to tell others that you know better than they what should and should not affect their enjoyment of the game, their fun, is not only foolhardy its a bit pretentious and insulting.

A single line can’t ruin most books, unless it happens to be at the climax. That’s a pretty disingenuous statement, considering looking at the whole picture.

I’ve never seen a single line ruin a profession novel. I’ve seen some pretty bad amateur novels that were ruined by entire chapters, though.

I’ve often seen things in published books that sell quite well that are very bad lines. Worse than very bad lines, they’re also wrong somehow. They’re either contradicting something else that happens in the book, or they create a logical conundrum that makes the plot less likely or whatever. 1% of the people who read might notice it, but the reviewers seem to miss it. I single line or even a bad paragraph doesn’t ruin books.

Many authors are guilty of overwriting at times, but that doesn’t ruin books either.w

I don’t think most people come to MMOs and expect the first 15 levels to be riveting. I played Wildstar and ESO. I didn’t find the start up experience riveting. Because at some point you have to learn their system.

Compared to those games, even now the Guild Wars 2 system is far and away superior. Yes, it’s slower than it was, but it’s not nearly as bad as people are making it out. There are a few events in the very beginning of the zone 1-10 levels that affect the first hour of gameplay. If you’re slow maybe the first two hours.

But honestly, this is the largest over-reaction I’ve seen to date from this community. The ascended fiasco wasn’t an over-reaction. The trait change affects the entire game.

This change. I think people are focusing on a hot button issue of level gating, without ever acknowledging that this game had level gating from day one.

laokoko.7403:

Vayne.8563:

Actually I don’t worry about people making the game look bad. I do what I can to help people understand why decisions being made may not be as silly as they think they are, because I’m an educator at heart. It’s what I’ve always done.

I find it hard to believe that you are not troubled by people making the game look bad.

When someone make a negative comment or questioned the developer’s design decision, you seemed very passionate to fight back.

The number of negative threads I actually post in is smaller than you think. I’m usually in five or six threads. There are probably more than that I never touch. Why? Because I don’t have a negative opinion about what those threads are saying or how they’re saying it.

I’m only in threads that I think are either unfair, or insisting on things that I think would likely ruin the game for me, and people like me. I didn’t post in the “Anet Please Stop Thread” and have no intention to. Or the my greatest fear thread. And there are some leaving threads I posted in that say, I hope you find the right game for you, and that’s the extent of what I post.

I posted several times in the Trait thread, but always to make a point about something I don’t like about the new trait system.

So yeah, I don’t care about “looking bad”. There are legitimately changes I like to this game that I support and yes, defend. Why? Get this. Because I like them.

I didn’t like the trait changes and I didn’t support them. See how that works.

Tachenon.5270:

Look at the bigger picture, eh? The bigger picture looks (disclaimer: to my eyes) like a series of desperate moves made in (drum roll) desperation.

• Megaserver to hide the empty servers.
• Trait System Revamp, in hopes people will confuse/equate it with elite skill hunting. Or maybe there really is something in the water. Who knows.
• NPE – so many old guys are leaving, let’s try to hang on to new guys!

Your mileage may vary.

My mileage does vary.

Megaserver: Because there are 25 quite large zones and every single MMO I’ve ever played including WoW had dead zones on servers. So yeah, doesn’t prove anything. Certainly COULD mean what you said, but it also could mean other things. Especially because Anet has said they didn’t want to add new zones until they solved the problem of older zones being empty. In almost every MMO the end game zones are were everyone hangs out with a few notable exceptions. Even Barrens chat is dead now on most WoW Servers. And that’s a game with a whole lot of subscribers.

Trait system revamp was poorly done. It needs work. No argument there

NPE – Every MMO has attrition. This game is two years old and yeah, people are GOING to leave. That’s sort of what happens in MMOs…virtually all of them these days. Why? Because there are always more MMOs coming out and people like new and shiny. Of course people leave. Which means you need to replace them.

You do realize that games like ESO and Wildstar and Neverwinter didn’t really make that much of a mark on this game. Certainly not the kind of mark you’re talking about.

Considering the last quarter wasn’t down in profits that much and it was the quarter both Wildstar and ESO launched, I’d say this game is doing fine.

I strongly suspect it will continue to do fine. And we’ll see soon enough.

Absconditus.6804:

I get a feeling Vayne works for ArenaNet anyways. It’s like this one person I used to work with, for a different game. He would post all the time on his private account (much to my annoyance), never being negative to anything, always defending the company and game. Vayne is following that formula perfectly as far as I’ve seen. Always sticking up for the poor employees who’s being “bullied” by people writing overall constructive negative feedback on aspects of a recent patch. Now I may be wrong, and if so, this Vayne user is just a guy that sticks up for ArenaNet and the game, fine. But if you are working for them, and this is your private account, stop it. You are somewhat going overboard.

Feedback is feedback, negatively loaded or not. They can as much as I did, overlook the rudeness to a post and find the message it contains, should there be one. If there isn’t one, they’ll ignore it and move on to the next one. People get passionate about something they care for. This is why people are upset and why they are posting. They are upset because they genuinely dislike something that’s been done to something they.. well.. love. Most posts here are people relatively mildly displaying their annoyance over aspects of the patch, with actual feedback on what they think could have been done better, alternatively, differently.

Even the “I quit” posts are for the most part actually listing reasons. Feedback for ArenaNet to take aboard. If nobody tells them why they quit, how are they to understand why they lose players? Through sending players who quit inquiries about why they quit? If I got one of those from a game I had gotten so annoyed at that I quit over, I would hardly give it the time of day to go through it. It would likely just be some sort of silly multiple choices form that didn’t cover my feelings anyways, so I’d click whatever felt mildly related to what actually got on my nerves. I’ve gotten a few of these question forms before.. they’re usually horrible and only covers what they think is wrong, not what I think is wrong. This is besides the point.

Vayne, if you work for them, and this is your private account, don’t be like my old colleague please. It’s really annoying for your other colleagues, I promise you that. And it starts to look like it to the rest of the forum goers, when you consistently only seem to post praise and defense. Let people be mad if they’re mad. ArenaNet is getting feedback, feedback is valuable. They aren’t children, they can handle some harsh language as long as a point is being given. If it isn’t, they are perfectly able to ignore it, I promise you that.

I don’t work for them and if you think I do, there’s not much I can do about it.

And you still haven’t explained then why I came out publicly against RNG in cash shop boxes, or the new trait system.

As long as you only continue to look at my defenses, and not the points that I make where I say something against Anet, you’re demonstrably wrong in what you say.

Sakri.7234:

I am just offended that Anet seems to think that players are so stupid that they are confused and overwhelmed by the simplest things now.

See here’s the problem. You’re thinking like a gamer. There are millions and millions of potential gamers that aren’t gamers and they have to start somewhere.

Anet isn’t dumbing down the play experience for level 80 characters. Dry Top has harder creatures than any other zone in the game. Modrem are tough. The wolves can almost one shot you if you allow them to flank you. The ones who are vampiric or poison are a pain in the kitten. There’s new mechanics in Dry Top. It’s a harder zone over all. In a month or so we revist that zone. I don’t know how you think Dry Top is dumbed down.

Anet has definited “dumbed down” the first 15 levels of the game, which is a relatively small part of most player’s experiences. They did this because it’s a business and it’s competitive business. There are a zillion MMOs out, more every day.

Somehow I don’t see a lot of new MMO players starting in Wildstar or Archage. In fact, there are less MMOs that appeal to new players now than there ever have been. This is a good opportunity for them.

People are insulted because they think Anet has a low opinion of them. Anet simply has a high opinion of expanding their player base.

Some of those people who never played a game like this before will come in and learn and become more experienced. They’re become veterans. But it won’t happen if you can’t keep them.

laokoko.7403:

Vayne.8563:

laokoko.7403:

I just browsed over quickly.

I dont’ know where you are getting at, our job is not to come on the forum to praise how good the game is.

When people are happy, they don’t come on the forum, they just happily playing.

Usually when people dislike something, it is when they come on the forum and say something.

Your job isn’t to make games either. Anet’s is.

So you come to the forum, unhappy, and you say stuff like (and people have said it) why not buff everything else. The reason why is because nothing else could ever get done.

I’m not saying to praise everything. I’m saying not to take individual parts of a system and use that to judge the entire system, because your judgement will be skewed. It won’t make your playing experience better and many things people have asked for aren’t practical. They don’t think about how this system will affect the market or how that system will affect new players. They care about only their own desire to have the game they want. All well and good…except for one thing.

If any of us ever really got the game we want, there might be only a handful of people to play it with.

Games aren’t about individual details they’re about entire systems. Details can be altered, but entire systems are arguably more important. It’s like the people who say this MMO is like every other MMO because most things in it are found somewhere in some game. But the combination of these things all in the same game was Anet’s vision. If you can’t see the forest you can’t know the health of the forest, no matter how bad the tree you’re looking at is.

honestly read your own comment. You are really troubled that people are making the game look bad.

So unless you are associate with Anet, you shouldn’t worry too much you are making them look bad.

Or if you are a “really reallly” passionate fan, I think you are getting a bit too passionate.

Actually I don’t worry about people making the game look bad. I do what I can to help people understand why decisions being made may not be as silly as they think they are, because I’m an educator at heart. It’s what I’ve always done.

This happens on every forum of every MMORPG I’ve ever seen, so I really can’t be too panicked about it. But ever year that passes, I see the same conversations over and over and I feel it gives me at least a bit of perspective. I share that perspective. Maybe someone benefits from it and maybe someone doesn’t. Doesn’t change what I do.

Straylight.7529:

Andred.1087:

winterchillz.2564:

So, as you’ve probably noticed ANet, a very big part of the community is unhappy

Laughing so hard right now

Do you even know how small the forum community is compared to the entire playerbase? Devs have already said it is minuscule; I would wager less than 2%.

Are there really this many people on here incapable of seeing past their own noses?

Logical fallacy. The majority of people do not voice their opinions. You can not listen to a voice that doesn’t exist. Therefore, you have to listen to those people who express their opinions. These people can be found on the official forums/reddit/popular fansites.

I’m getting tired of the old argument “the forum represents a minority, therefore their opinions are irrelevant”. The forum represents the majority of people who voice their opinions and is therefore not irrelevant.

Actually this is the logical fallacy.

Point 1. This game is played by X number of people.
Point 2. Only Y number of people have an opinion they voice.
Point 3. Any change made to accomodate Y people won’t just affect Y people. It’ll affect the X people too. Anet can’t just make choices based on a small group of people giving that advice, unless they’re relatively sure those changes would go over well.

As an example, the hardest core players who want challenges all over the place are probably not a majority. But they are very vocal on forums. They’re the min/maxers and the people who develop the metas. Logically speaking they are the most vested and smartest players in the game.

A game made for them would increasingly exclude a large number of other people. The more you make it for the top 5% the more the bottom 95% will feel disenfranchised. The more you make it for the top 10% the more the bottom 90% will feel disenfranchised.

The question has always been this. Is the forum a microcosm for the entire game’s player base, or is it a select few who think more deeply about their gaming experience and want something different than the vast majority of people who don’t post want.

I moderated a forum called guildwars2forum.com a long time ago and I had access to the numbers. Less than 15% of the people visiting that forum ever left a post. That means that, at least on that forum, 85% of the people never had a say. Not here, there.

But I’ve moderated other groups that weren’t forums, mostly yahoo groups, in the past and I’ve found the same 15% rule applies. I’ve never been in a group with more than 20% of people reading it ever posted.

Those who post are not necessarily representative of the majority of the player base. And that’s only lurkers and posters. What percentage of those who play never even lurk?

The mind boggles.

laokoko.7403:

I just browsed over quickly.

I dont’ know where you are getting at, our job is not to come on the forum to praise how good the game is.

When people are happy, they don’t come on the forum, they just happily playing.

Usually when people dislike something, it is when they come on the forum and say something.

Your job isn’t to make games either. Anet’s is.

So you come to the forum, unhappy, and you say stuff like (and people have said it) why not buff everything else. The reason why is because nothing else could ever get done.

I’m not saying to praise everything. I’m saying not to take individual parts of a system and use that to judge the entire system, because your judgement will be skewed. It won’t make your playing experience better and many things people have asked for aren’t practical. They don’t think about how this system will affect the market or how that system will affect new players. They care about only their own desire to have the game they want. All well and good…except for one thing.

If any of us ever really got the game we want, there might be only a handful of people to play it with.

Games aren’t about individual details they’re about entire systems. Details can be altered, but entire systems are arguably more important. It’s like the people who say this MMO is like every other MMO because most things in it are found somewhere in some game. But the combination of these things all in the same game was Anet’s vision. If you can’t see the forest you can’t know the health of the forest, no matter how bad the tree you’re looking at is.

Chuo.4238:

Vayne.8563:

You do realize you agreed with a post of mine? Just checking.

Yea – I can be openminded. Looks like you’re not completely satisfied with the kool-aid either. This should be worrying for ArenaNet.

Why? Why do you think everyone had to like everything about a game or a company? I have never ever played a game where I’ve liked everything. Not once. Not ever. It’s never going to happen.

Over all I’m happy with the direction of the game. There are things I decidedly don’t like, but they’re still a minority.

As I’ve said many times, I used to be an editor. Not a copy editor, or line editor, but an editor nonetheless.

One of the lessons I learned a long time ago is that anyone can take a line from any book, or a number of lines and make the book look less good than it actually was by focusing on those lines. It’s actually quite easy. Dissecting a book piecemeal almost never makes a book better. There are overriding concerns that the book has to deal with as a whole that make a book successful or not.

What I see a lot on these forums are people dissecting individual tiny bits of an update and trying to make it look like the game is bad, the update is bad, the thing they specifically don’t like is bad.

The simplest example of this is something like the warrior nerf. People say why did Anet nerf the warrior. I was having fun. I was enjoying the game.

Then you point out that the warrior greatsword 2 skill did more damage than any other #2 skill in the game by a huge amount. And people said, well, yeah, why not just buff the other classes, that would be the smart thing to do.

But anyone who really stops and thinks about it would know how bad that would be for the game. If you buff all the other professions until they’re equal to a warrior, which was clearly overpowered at least in some areas of the game, then every single encounter in the PvE game becomes trivial. You would then have to adjust every single creature and dungeon and fractal in the entire game, every dynamic event, and what would you likely end up with.

One profession that everyone said was overpowered. You’d have to buff every other profession up to that, and it would never end. The time it takes to nerf a skill or two that was out of whack is minimal and frankly manageable. The amount of time it would take to buff every other skill of every other profession and then buff everything in the game to compensate would be ridiculous and wouldn’t allow time for anything else.

Anet doesn’t look at any system in isolation. Everything they change effects everything else in the game. And so we get to the New Player Experience.

Anet is looking at increasing the number of players in this game, perhaps at the risk of annoying players who are already playing the game. I’m sure they’ll find the right balance and compromise so a minimal number of people are affected so badly.

But a lot of what we’ve seen is people picking on individual points, not whole systems and that’s where the problem lies.

It’s easy to pick apart a book. Terribly easy. Even the greatest book. Because books aren’t about individual lines or words. They’re about something bigger.

The first 20-30 levels of play in an MMO for the largest bulk of the playerbase represent the smallest amount of time. Most people will spend far more time with their character at 80 than they will spend with it at all the levels to 80 put together.

This experience was not made for old players to do better, even though there are some benefits in it for old players. It was made for new players, who everyone seems to think they know about.

The MMO genre is a swamped genre. It’s filled with games made for people who have spent years playing these games. There is an untapped market out there of people who never really played these games but could, if someone would actually give them a change to get their feet wet.

Does it matter if you dance in front of a cow or feed it? Sure. It matters. But I’ve played this game for thousands of hours and I’m relatively sure I didn’t spent 1 hour of it feeding cows. And these are the types of complaints we’re getting.

The dumbing down only covers levels 1-10 or about an hour of play time. I can see where some might find that annoying. What I can’t see is the depth of the player reaction to what is essentially a change to the earliest experience in the game.

Yes, it was always going to need to be tweaked. But it’s still a relatively small part of the game.

People might argue that you get your elite at level 40, it’s half the game now. But because they increased the speed of leveling 1-15, it’s no longer half the game. And Colin has said you get your elite skill at about the same number of hours played. People are distracted by an arbitrary number that is the character level.

I’m sure that in the days ahead, changes will be made that will make most people happy, but sinking an entire update for what ends up being essentially small details out of a whole cloth is a bit like sabotage. You can always find a weakness to exploit in any game if you really want to. Try pulling back and looking at the bigger picture. You may like it, or you may not. But it’s what developers have to look at. I don’t think everyone on the forum necessarily sees that.

I haven’t looked at Duly for Diving Goggles yet, I doubt very much I’ll look for collections. However, I don’t think any less of people who do. You have to be a special kind of crazy to play games the way I do.

Any precusor fix has to take the economy into account. I’m relatively sure people have invested in precusors and even made legendaries just to sell for profit.

Imagine if you were one of these people, went to all the trouble of making a legendary, spent hundreds of gold to list it and boom, the price drop would be nuts.

I’m not saying it’s a bad idea or a good idea. I’m saying that whatever Anet does, the affect it would have on the TP has to be very carefully weighed.

My guess is, if that happened, the price on T6 mats would skyrocket very very fast.

Wait for the next patch, there are probably fixes in it. Should be today sometime.

hydeaut.1758:

The difference in stats is so small, that all Anet teaches new players is: “expect to get crap-rewards”

Let’s review this conversation shall we:

Complaint: Haha this update is so bad, Anet is giving an offhand weapon as a reward. That’s so dumb.
Response: It’s not an offhand weapon. It’s a main hand weapon with slightly better stats than the one they have to teach people how to upgrade.
Complaint: That doesn’t explain why the guardian gets a shield and focus for the reward when they can’t even use it.
Response: Just tested it, guardian gets a mace, with slightly higher stats than the one they already had.
Comment: Anet is just preparing people for all the bad drops they’re going to get.

I guess when push comes to shove, we can keep saying stuff until we find something that fits if you want to talk down the game.

But personally I think it’s enough reward for getting through the starter instance. It does what it needs to do.

Sokia.3710:

Vayne.8563:

It is lucky. But also maybe it’s more than luck. I strongly suspect there are a lot of achievement hunters around, possibly due to the console generation growing up with achievements. I mean all the games basically have them now. Older generations of players tend to think achievements are sort of silly, but many of the newer gamers grew up with them and expect them.

I’m an older gamer. To be honest, the first time I saw achievements in a game, I didn’t understand the point. It did seem silly to get some title for doing something that you were going to do anyway. I still don’t care for achievements all that much, because they are basically just pre-set goals, and I used to play text-based RPGS where you basically make your own goals. So, I’m used to coming up with stuff that I find interesting.

I’m from your generation of gamer. I have always entertainment myself in games, and outside of games. That’s me.

However, I don’t mind having a checklist of stuff to do. I’m not like the new people who run out and have to have stuff right away. I’m not looking at Dulfy to find out how to get stuff or where to get it. I’m not buying it off the trading post. I’ll get it…when I get to it, in my own good time.

But it’s there. And when I get something from it, it becomes cool because I didn’t expect it. Even when I use Mawdrey and get another junk item unlocked for my collection I’m thinking, cool. It’s not a big cool, it’s a little one.

And I think we should probably stop here, because we’re getting way off the communication topic.

hydeaut.1758:

Vayne.8563:

It’s a mace, slightly better than the one you have when you start, to teach you to change weapons, just like I said.

Wouldn´t it be even a better motivation for changing weapons if it was a different one? Well, probably considered as to overwhelming . . .

Seriously, some rewards could need tweaking: on one reward you can choose between 3 different identified dyes – which were always the same on all 5 guards I leveled up to 12.

And once I had a blue level 1 focus as a normal drop – the usability for that is quite limited around that level.

It’s not a question of motivation. Giving you a different weapon doesn’t teach you the same weapon can be upgraded to be better. Obviously a different weapon is good as well, but that’s not what Anet is trying to teach. They want people to look at the stats and see that one is better and upgrade to that. This actually makes sense. Remember, a person is 15 minutes into the game at this point.

This is how Anet is teaching the system. I’m not sure why giving someone a complete new weapon is better when they’re only just now unlocking the second skill of the first weapon.

Sokia.3710:

Vayne.8563:

I’m an achievement hunter.

That’s very lucky for you, actually. The achievement system has seen more improvements than any other aspect of the game since launch.

It is lucky. But also maybe it’s more than luck. I strongly suspect there are a lot of achievement hunters around, possibly due to the console generation growing up with achievements. I mean all the games basically have them now. Older generations of players tend to think achievements are sort of silly, but many of the newer gamers grew up with them and expect them. It’s become part of the way companies stretch their content.

I mean, I played Mass Effect 1 and 2 and the achievements were a part of keeping the game interesting after you beat it a couple of times. They can’t keep giving you more game, but they can place achievements in there to keep you playing. It’s those sorts of games that probably acclimatized me to achievement hunting. In other words, the industry trained me.

Sokia.3710:

Vayne.8563:

See, this is my problem. People comment about the new patch without actually having tried the new patch. Here’s the reward for finishing the tutorial in the new patch, with the new guardian I just made to test it out.

It’s a mace, slightly better than the one you have when you start, to teach you to change weapons, just like I said. I know you don’t like that patch, but you really shouldn’t be talking about it unless you’ve tried it. That’s my objection to a lot of the stuff people having been saying. Much of it is demonstrably untrue.

Arenanet still hasn’t given me my free character slot so I can test out stuff like this without having to delete one of my existing characters.

Just sayin’

I’m not saying you should test it. I’m saying if you haven’t tested it, you shouldn’t really be commenting. It’s just spreading misinformation. You do it enough it calls everything you say into focus.

Anet didn’t just change a couple of things, they revamped everything. The first first reward for getting to level two is the weapon you already have, but a slightly better version of it. The text, when you level reads like this so you can get into the habit early of swapping out older weapons for better ones.

Sokia.3710:

Vayne.8563:

Because it’s a main hand weapon with slightly higher stats than the weapon you have.

I’m sure that helps Guardians a lot since, correct me if I’m wrong, they get the choice between a SHIELD or a FOCUS for completing the intro.

See, this is my problem. People comment about the new patch without actually having tried the new patch. Here’s the reward for finishing the tutorial in the new patch, with the new guardian I just made to test it out.

It’s a mace, slightly better than the one you have when you start, to teach you to change weapons, just like I said. I know you don’t like that patch, but you really shouldn’t be talking about it unless you’ve tried it. That’s my objection to a lot of the stuff people having been saying. Much of it is demonstrably untrue.

Nilkemia.8507:

It’s all one terrible joke after another.

Your reward for completing the first quest? A weapon you can’t off-hand wield until Lv7.

Just…why?

Because it’s a main hand weapon with slightly higher stats than the weapon you have. It’s there to teach new players how to upgrade weapons.

See the new weapon has higher damage than the old one and the tool tip that you get with the level tells you you just got a new weapon and can equip it.

I have no clue why anyone would think it’s meant to be used as an offhand.