Guild Wars 2

Enko.6123:

Question. If you immobilize a boss and prevent him from getting to somewhere where he then starts attacking, is that consider violating rule 11.) Attacking enemies which don’t try to fight back is banned.

There’s two instances that I can think of that the boss doesn’t start doing anything until it gets to that point and another instance where this happens mid fight.

It doesn’t violate rule 11. I specifically left “attacking” out so it would cover cases like Shoggroth. Perhaps changing “fight back” to “act” would be better?

Jerus.4350:

So is pugmode shoggroth or Subject 6 in thaumanova immob ok?

Personally I feel that Shoggroth it was probably intended, I mean who wouldn’t think “hmm can we slow him down when he tries to run away,” it’d have been a huge oversight if they didn’t think of that one.
—

I guess that would sum up the entire dungeon content.

The solution was asking the customer support to replace it.

They should have given a skill like that to Necromancers. I don’t see why one of the best professions should get one of the best elites.

The damage is dynamically calculated every hit with one multiplication. It should be doable fairly easily. Other stuff like balancing / etc. are a bigger issue, just like with the current downscaling.

Currently all rules are “rule + exceptions”. It makes sense to make general rules because they apply to many cases.

But bugged skills or traits have very few cases. Like now we have two cases, Fire Magic and Grenadier (as far as I know). With case by case there would be 2 polls. With rule + exception there would be at least 1 poll, probably 2 polls (people have already asked me about Grenadier). Generally speaking, I’m pretty sure there would be a poll about most cases.

So rule + exceptions would be slower and unreliable and with about same amount of voting. But if you disagree, I can add the option.

A rule for most cases and then exceptions for special cases sounds nice in paper because it’s like best of both options. Flexibility with less voting.

But in reality it’s not that simple. Bugged traits or skill come up quite rarely but when they do, they should get decided fast.

With a rule and exceptions. decisions would take two weeks because first week would be used to figure out which cases are special (people can suggest which cases to vote) and then next week would be used for voting. Also there would be a risk that someone 3 weeks later wants to vote about something.

With only exceptions, decisions would take one week and be final.

Kordash.2197:

Aren’t the guys deciding a ruleset supposed to know the implications of the said ruleset, and therefore what they are voting for ?
Imo, if you don’t know what you are voting for, you should refrain voting. But yeah, that’s in a dream world.

Anyway, let’s be smart and ban only what could be seriously a problem, a rule can have exceptions, that’s not like the ruleset will seriously ban Fire traits for Eles for 150 power undocumented even if the first option is the one choosen.

Interestingly enough, might nerf only reduced up to 125 power, which was considered significant enough for a record reset.

When Fire Magic gets fixed, do we then reset those records? If we do, what would be the point to allow it? There are lots of ifs and buts when words like “serious” or “significant” are used.

Anyways, these all are just single cases. It’s easy to pick what’s ok and what’s not. But what if Fire Magic gave 300 power? Or 500 power? Or 1000 power? What to do when some people think something is ok while some think it’s not? The only way to deal with these is to make consistent decisions.

Either ban all, allow all or decide all case by case.

Well, did it?

frifox.5283:

I don’t think that would prove anything. Ability to identify a mechanic isn’t the same as listing all mobs that use said mechanic. Apples and oranges.

It would prove that people care about educating people and making the situation better instead of complaining in a corner called dungeon forums.

Sure, it’s great if people educate people in-game but it would be much more effective to pile up all the information somewhere.

fracture.9754:

I don’t get it, I honestly thought pathing mobs is basic and common knowledge in dungeon clearing. How is this an issue?

Simple question getting two different answers. Or being difficult to write down.

That’s supposed to be “common knowledge”?

Perhaps slightly off topic but is the exact critical chance available in the client memory?

I think

A) Ban usage of any traits and skill which give any undocumented benefit

could be changed to

A) Ban getting advantage of any traits and skill which give any undocumented benefit

and then specifically mention that you can use them if you weaken your character at least equally. So you could use Fire Magic if you lose ~175 damage attribute points some way. But this opens up interpretation for “what’s enough”.

If those two may bug out on their own this sounds like a good situation for an exception (also known as a vote).

Unless someone has any other information about it.

I try to be as neutral as possible. If I start limiting options based on what I like that means I do the decision, not the voters. Some people would call that a biased poll.

I have specifically mentioned that banning all bugged traits and skills can have severe effects. If I wanted to trick people why would I do that?

NikeEU.7690:

Wethospu.6437:

The entire reason we are having these votes is this “common sense” which made lots of people wonder what rules and decisions actually mean when they are enforced based on “common sense”.

And in case you haven’t still noticed, you guys are making these decisions, not me. There is an option for case by case if people want that.

Maybe instead of including an option that would outright ban Fire Magic, you figure out how to word it to allow Fire Magic but not allow things like Symbolic Avenger spam or Grenadier? Otherwise now we have the following options for issue 1…

1. turn the ruleset into a joke and ruin the game
2. let you dictate the rules
3. never-ending votes. votes about votes.
4. turn the ruleset into a joke and ruin the game

3 is the only option that doesn’t result in ruining the ruleset. So that begs the following questions: why are you even including options in the vote that would ruin the game? Why include poison pill options?

Amount of constructive feedback: Zero.

Amount of crying: Massive.

Anyways I thought you would be happy of the option A because that doesn’t have any degenerative unrestricted stuff.

It’s like easiest event in the game and you can even fail it… :O

The entire reason we are having these votes is this “common sense” which made lots of people wonder what rules and decisions actually mean when they are enforced based on “common sense”.

And in case you haven’t still noticed, you guys are making these decisions, not me. There is an option for case by case if people want that.

Yes, as mentioned at the original post (I’m bit curious, does anyone read it?).

Any official documentation is fine.

Description

Simple voting system has been added to http://gw2dungeons.net/Voting. Each week I will create a discussion topic on forums and add relevant polls there, if needed. Guild leaders are given an account which can be used to vote. Polls stay up for one week.

Guild leaders can apply for a vote by sending me your preferred login name and reason why you should have a vote (was in previous rule meetings, have records, etc.) via in-game, forums or email. Optionally you can also give me your email so I can send a reminder about new polls if there hasn’t been any for a while.

Current vote holders:

• Daemoniic [HeX]
• Enko [LOD]
• Deathly [qT]
• Skywalker [TDN]
• Der/p/y Moa [vC]
• Ashlee [geek]
• Jerem [SC]
• Nikephoros [DnT]
• Sanderinoa [rT]
• Veckna [QQ]
• Senior Magic [iG]
• Juliverine [Yoga]

Keep in mind that anyone is free to give their opinion and ideas on this topic!

Results of week 26 voting

60% wanted to keep the current record resetting stance, “reset records which can’t be realistically beaten”.

Issue1: Bugged traits and skills

With the new patch lots of bugs have appeared without any indication when they get fixed. To keep things rolling, we need to deal with these cases on our own.

A) Ban usage of any traits and skill which give any undocumented benefit

• Consistent
• Less voting
• Little bugs can have severe effects (for example a minor trait giving 1 additional power would ban the trait line completely)

B) Let Wethospu ban traits and skills

• Less voting
• Can’t affect the result
• Can be inconsistent

C) Vote for each case

• More voting
• Can affect the result
• Can be inconsistent

D) Allow any bugged traits and skills

• Big bugs can have severe effects
• Allows “broken” runs on all time records

Issue 2: Record resetting procedure

Some people suggested that records should be reseted arbitrarily (“whenever there’s significant enough changes”). So another vote with different options.

A) Keep the current stance. Never reset a record if it can be realistically beaten.

B) Also reset when changes are significant. Let Wethospu decide what’s “significant”.

• Less voting
• Can’t affect the result
• Can be inconsistent

C) Also reset when changes are significant. Vote to decide what’s “significant”.

• More voting
• Can affect the result
• Can be inconsistent

Keep in mind that only half a week to vote. I will extend the time if I see lots of votes missing.

By the way, is:

10.) Abusing trait swapping to use any skill prior to its natural cool down is banned. This includes but is not limited to Mesmer Blink and Guardian Wall of Reflection.

still relevant?

Since you all are so experienced, why don’t you list all “pathing” enemies and how to deal with them? With and without stealth.

I also use pathselecting daily.

Which affects like 1% of players.

I know what pathing means but I don’t think I have ever used it. Often you can just kill the enemies and it’s not like you need stealth to skip stuff.

Underwater crafting tables with repetitive puzzles?

Chilipadiboy.9340:

Waar Kijk Je Naar.8713:

How do you even get 30 bleeds in AC? Doesn’t your keyboard have a V button?

You need to do it now believe me. You cannot avoid 30+ graveling babies swarming at you while you try and take down the nest with number 4 of ice bow.

Perhaps you need to take more care when trying to use one of the highest damaging attacks in the game.

When your projectile hits an enemy it creates a small AoE which applies the effect. If you want the effect, hit enemies on melee range.

Transferred conditions use target’s damage values and there is a 25 stack cap, so you won’t do much damage with it.

Purple Miku.7032:

Wethospu.6437:

For Shoggroth, what are the best ways to keep burning up post patch? What about immobilization?

I know Warrior can still just use Combustive Shot, Fan of Fire, Pin Down and Throw Bolas.

Also, are his projectiles unblockable?

Hey, first of all his projectiles are unblockable and unreflectable. Secondly, they cannot be power blocked with the mesmer trait because I think it’s an autoattack (which is all he has). Not sure if this information is valuable to you at all but I figured I would include it anyways.

As for the burning… warrior only has longbow F1 and fan of fire, but if elementalists are in the group they can trait for it with both burning precision and arcane precision, but additionally they can cast glyph of storms in fire attunement, use the signet of fire active, use staff’s flame burst and a lot more. One elementalist is more than enough to maintain permanent burning until 75% hp.

Thanks for the verification. I have seen some people suggest reflects for it so started doubt myself.

frifox.5283:

Or use that bottle-of-fire to pre-stack a bunch of fire when tar spawns, and then drop it to avoid burning allies…

I’m pretty sure that bottle is completely broken. Burning basically ends before you can use it again.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lava_Font

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Whirling_Wrath

That wouldn’t be a very good guide, would it?

Except for 90% of the playerbase

Does Virtue of Justice also trigger for stuff like symbols? Since you have to hit on average every 0.4 seconds to get permaburning from it (every 0.67 seconds when traited).

For Shoggroth, what are the best ways to keep burning up post patch? What about immobilization?

I know Warrior can still just use Combustive Shot, Fan of Fire, Pin Down and Throw Bolas.

Also, are his projectiles unblockable?

Is this even real???

I felt a sudden urge to post this on reddit. Please upvote: http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3b3777/burned_to_death_pve_unplayable/

With 4 rangers + 1 warrior, 5 + 4 + 4*5 + 5*2 = 39 targets (5 players, 4 pets, 20 spirits, 10 embers + ogre pets), ~20 burning stacks per target ~ 750 burning stacks should be possible.

When you get to the work life, the difference between getting and “getting” gets getty glear.

Imo they should add crafting stations to dungeons so you could craft powerful equipment to take down hard bosses.

Perhaps the difference is that most condition users aren’t now a complete dead weight at world bosses.

The real issue is why we even have base precision.

The way I see it, the effort to get every skin should stay about constant. While some can be hard to get, they shouldn’t become easier or harder to get over time.

NikeEU.7690:

I’m for a mass reset when a meta-wide change is made. But if a path is radically changed, like if they fixed Arahp3 door or something and the old times could never realistically be beaten I would like the flexibility to reset just that path.

In regards to this patch specifically, we know that the movement skill thing is a fairly big nerf but I think it remains to be seen if old records cannot realistically be beaten. Why not let the old records stand for a bit and see if its actually impossible before we reset?

I clarified option B. Hopefully it now indicates that only affected paths would get reseted.

I’m not sure if we could draw any conclusions whether current record are still beatable even if few records get beaten. It’s hard to estimate which records are hard to beat, especially after patch.

Implementation would be quite simple. When you want to invalidate a record you write a value to a textbox, select path and click a button. Then all records for that path get a penalty time so they stay in order.

I think currently we have pretty much done option B even though we should have done option A.

About option C:

Invalid records get a specific amount of penalty time (not sure whether decided by me or approvers). This time depends on the severity of changes. For example a small nerf could only add like 15 seconds while big change would add like 2 minutes. The idea is that the penalty time is unfair so invalid records should be quite easy to beat.

Valid records would use the record time + penalty time when showing the fastest run. Penalty time would show up as a red number.

All time records would only use the record time.

Description

Simple voting system has been added to http://gw2dungeons.net/Voting. Each week I will create a discussion topic on forums and add relevant polls there, if needed. Guild leaders are given an account which can be used to vote. Polls stay up for one week.

Guild leaders can apply for a vote by sending me your preferred login name and reason why you should have a vote (was in previous rule meetings, have records, etc.) via in-game, forums or email. Optionally you can also give me your email so I can send a reminder about new polls if there hasn’t been any for a while.

Current vote holders:

• Daemoniic [HeX]
• Enko [LOD]
• Deathly [qT]
• Skywalker [TDN]
• Der/p/y Moa [vC]
• Ashlee [geek]
• Jerem [SC]
• Nikephoros [DnT]
• Sanderinoa [rT]
• Veckna [QQ]
• Senior Magic [iG]
• Juliverine [Yoga]

Keep in mind that anyone is free to give their opinion and ideas on this topic!

Results of week 25 voting

Exception rule was changed again so exceptions like banning “wall-on-wall” are now in effect. Also I have simplified enemy manipulation rule (exceptions may be needed to ban some cases). Also I removed event manipulation rule because not sure if it really affects anything.

80% agreed to allow breaking NPC dialogue. Rules have been clarified.

60% agreed to ban breaking cutscenes. Rules have been clarified.

80% agreed to allow more specific rules in the future. No effect for now, in future bit more work.

If everything now feels good we can take a break from infinite and endless tweaking and tuning.

Issue1: Record resetting procedure

IIRC, the original stance for resetting records has been “Records which can’t be realistically beaten will be reseted”.

The logical problem with this is that it’s better to do poor records since they have a better chance to stay up after nerfs. Poor records also get relatively better time if they don’t get reseted (big nerf can turn a bad record to a good one). Also it’s really difficulty to say which records can be beaten.

Also some people have been annoyed that their good records get reseted and replaced by poor records. It has been suggested that invalid records would gain a significant time penalty instead of being reseted. This fits the original stance because when you add enough time the record can be beaten.

A) Keep the current stance, Records which can’t be realistically beaten will be reseted.

• Good records get reseted more likely than bad records.
• Reseted good records may get replaced by bad records.
• Records may get reseted unfairly
• People can relatively get better times than they would deserve

B) Always reset when a record is affected by a nerf

• Resets good and bad records equally
• Reseted good records may get replaced by bad records.

C) Add lots of penalty time instead of resetting

• Good records won’t get replaced by bad records.

Before this week ends, I would like to remind that the poll about exceptions was reopened. Compared to the amount of discussion, not many people have changed their vote. As a reminder, voting for option B (“Wethospu decides based on rules”) allows stuff like wall-on-wall on Lupicus and air guns on CMP3. Also currently no option has at least 50% of votes.

I know people get tired of constant changes and voting so I try to complete this next week. I think rules about boss/enemy/event/encounter bugging/manipulation still need clarification.

Currently rules state:

11.) Preventing any enemy from attacking you is banned. This includes but is not limited to safespotting, abusing terrain to make all enemy attacks miss, breaking the enemy AI with a line of sighting or attacking immobile enemies through walls.

a . Abusing of event scripts is banned. This includes but is not limited to manipulating event spawns, disabling event mechanics, etc. All cutscenes within a dungeon that are relevant to the path must be triggered.

b . Abusing of path selection is allowed.

The big problem is that there are quite many ways to break stuff and rules should clearly ban those without affecting the legit stuff. For example:

1) Enemy shoots stuff, I move behind a rock, stuff hits rock instead of me, I move back

2) Enemy bounces towards me, I jump to a coral tree, bounces won’t hit me, I drop down

What’s the line between safespotting and active usage of terrain?

If exceptions become allowed this gets bit easier though. I think “Enemies must try to attack you at all times, except when controlled” would ban most cases.

About events, does anyone situations which manipulate event spawns or disable event mechanics? With voting there isn’t really any need to create future-proof rules.

There is no RNG involved. The spawning order is always same. You only have to kill storm spirit once and leave the rest alive.

Yes, that first week was partly my mistake since I have never ran a community poll system. I naturally expected some careless voting, etc. but didn’t realize people would rather vote something which they don’t understand at all instead of asking.

It’s normal that some stuff being voted feels pointless. There are lots of people involved so what someone finds trivial can be a big issue for someone else.

Effort to revote: <30 seconds.

Effort to debate endlessly about irrelevant things: >30 minutes.

To cut the chase, the voting will continue, for now.

In future I may decide rules by myself. Some of the opinions are really stupid, narrow and short-sighted so I may have to step up to protect you guys from yourselves.

(ok, last part wasn’t 100% serious)

This all would have been really great 4 weeks ago. At this point I’m getting pretty tired of reading walls of text when their essence is more or less this:

“I don’t like how people are voting, let’s close this or just do as I say”

That’s perfectly fine. But why do you have to cover it up with all kind of excuses? This whole thing would be less tedious and faster if we could actually focus on the real issues.

Without any this trouble, I would say we would have been done this week. Now I would estimate 2 more weeks after this one.

If you want be pedantic please note that I never stated that specifically you think your opinion equals “will of the community”.

There is a thing called constructive criticism. Constantly nagging about the same minor thing over and over isn’t constructive.

So poll for the next week:

Who should handle the administration of record runs?

A: Wethospu

B: Enko

Anyone else wants to participate?

Enko.6123:

Wethospu.6437:

Yes, I read your arguments but did you read mine? Did you answer any of my concerns about how your idea would practically work? No, you kept posting the same thing over and over and then started complaining how no one reads your posts. Basic reddit level discussion.

Umm I actually replied to your posts when you said anything . .. I even gave examples of suggested wordings on rules, suggested restricted ruleset intent statements, etc. Again, I just get the feeling you didn’t read any of them if you’re making this statement.

Just because you can type it out doesn’t mean it would actually work. If you can’t see how pointless the statement would be when no one had to follow it or could interpret it as they want, there isn’t much I can do. You have even proved yourself that people will vote whatever they want.

Wethospu.6437:

That’s a quite interesting perspective considering you are doing these speedruns. You need this service, not me. You must be extremely confident that DnT can handle this better than I do when you are so openly against the system.

I don’t think anyone minded when gwscr.com was running it or when DnT was posting it on their forums.

I am not openly against the system. I am openly against approved records that aren’t held to the posted ruleset or everything else that I mentioned during the Week 24 discussion thread. Again, are you reading the posts at all or ignoring them?

I’m certain you didn’t. It’s amazing how some of you think that your opinion equals “will of the community”. Not to mention constant attempts to break or manipulate the process.

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

Who knows?

Maybe we are powerful enough to bend the laws of logic!

Maybe we are planning a long term take over of all the records by introducing sneaky rules that will somehow advantage us only!

Fear us! We are everywhere and we are sooo powerful!

If you take the last letters of illuminati it’s a “t” and an “i”, and “i” is graphically very close to an “r”, so illuminati is very close to rT. Coincidence? I think not!

Your guild also just made a record run. That can’t be a coincidence. How long have you been planning this? 6 months?

Enko.6123:

You had the vote that we all were voting on everything without regards to the rules. It was basically throwing all the rules out. The only other option was for you to decide on rules. Your broad statements that are on opposite ends of the spectrum are part of the problem. You obviously didn’t read what I had posted on why I said we should have baseline rules and then people vote on the exceptions to those rules when they were needed.

The rules all created previously were predicated on a broad statement that the dungeons were to be done as intended which is the big thing that has been changed yet you all seem to think this is minor and didn’t matter. The Arah wall one shotting and the CM P3 air guns were both banned because people thought they were either cheesy and/or that was not intended. You guys got rid of that. Were there some exceptions that were still allowed like the Arah p3 door skip because during the TS meetings, the majority of people voted yes to it? Sure but generally everything was viewed through the lens of “should this be considered intended or not”.

I made very clear arguments last week which you obviously chose to not read them and then just claimed that nothing mattered. I was not asking for a guideline on how to vote. I was asking for a general statement that stated the intention of Restricted. You are the one who chose to toss that aside and you were the one who decided to turn Restricted into a Free For All.

There was no option to keep current rules. Why would we vote for changes if the point was to have no changes? If you don’t understand the options you should use the discussion topic and ask for a clarification.

Yes, if you keep making multiple lengthy posts it’s very easy to miss something. But that’s pretty much same as my approach. Instead of voting about a rule, you vote about some cases and then I deduce a rule from that.

Only reason why exceptions were removed was because you (and some other people complaining on this very topic) had voted against exceptions. That has nothing to do with the broad statement.

Yes, I read your arguments but did you read mine? Did you answer any of my concerns about how your idea would practically work? No, you kept posting the same thing over and over and then started complaining how no one reads your posts. Basic reddit level discussion.

You are reaping what you have sown.

That’s a quite interesting perspective considering you are doing these speedruns. You need this service, not me. You must be extremely confident that DnT can handle this better than I do when you are so openly against the system.

NikeEU.7690:

Its another thing when the rule in question is innocuously worded, and then when it is approved you come out with “ok well as a result of last week’s vote wallsploit is legal.” Nobody wants wallploits to be legal. It’s a joke that you guys (and by “you guys” it’s rT just look at the cast of people defending this, or is that a coincidence?) don’t understand how mismanaged it is. You are introducing uncertainty into a system where there previously was none, and then use that uncertainty to justify further meddling.

Only mismanaged thing I see is people (intentionally?) voting what they don’t actually like or taking discussion away from real stuff with conspiracy theories and other pointless stuff.

Because there was no impetus to do so? No one was looking to revisit wallsploits in restricted runs. No one was looking to revisit consumables, jumping puzzles or any of the rest of the general rules that were brought up for votes. If there was some community outcry against these things (besides Spoj) it would make some sense, but basically no one else was interested in revisiting these.

As I have mentioned before, I have got lots of feedback during this year. Almost every rule has been questioned. Also if no one wanted to revisit rules then the voting result should reflect that. rT has only one vote.

No, it’s just tedious revisiting issues over and over again. Especially when no one in the community can understand why if we all hate the changes that the changes are happening.

I would say tedious is me spending hours each week managing this stuff only to have some people trying to blow the whole thing up.

Enko.6123:

This is the kind of stuff having a basic statement that said Restricted ruleset was for runs that complete most if not all of the dungeon as it was intended.

Wethospu and Nike both made it clear last week that they felt it was pointless to have a general framework to set the mindset of the rules.

Did not expect it to come to a head this quickly with things like Lupi wall one shotting and air guns being allowed but this is the kind of stuff I was trying to prevent.

You specifically wanted that poll reopened so you could vote against exceptions, which changed the outcome. And now you act surprised that exceptions were removed?

I kind of understand why you would need a guideline to tell how to vote.