Guild Wars 2

Rieselle.5079 said:

“You people” need to realise that everyone else knows it’s a exercise without an end – if your attitude to gaming is to demand infinite progress, there is literally no way to satisfy you – you will ALWAYS run out of content.

Exactly. Even WoW, which basically has made a business model out of the infinite progression model, can’t keep up with consumption. GW2 is perhaps the largest MMOG world I’ve ever seen at release, and 3 weeks later we have people complaining about “lack of content” and character progression.

It’s obvious that even if the whole GW2 team worked on nothing but content for the infinite-progression crowd, there would be no satisfying them, and that would turn the game into a newer version of WoW. Perhaps that is what these players really want – an updated version of WoW (one wonders why they don’t just go play TERA, AION, RIFT, etc.)

People need to ask themselves, “What is it that I want? What are the consequences of what I want?”

So, is what they really want just an easier, less-expensive path to legendary gear? Why? When that’s done, what then? Are they obsessive-compulsives that must have whatever is considered the best in a game, whether it is cosmetic or not, before they can feel satisfied or like they “beat” the game and move on?

Once they get their legendary gear and max out all their character progression potential, what then? Do they expect ANET to provide more linear character progression with each expansion, so they can buy the expansion, max out their character progression in a few days or weeks, and then complain some more about how little character progression it offered?

Devildoc.6721 said:

yup, what’s why I asked for the sake of the conversation actually making sense, that people who are under the level of 80 not contribute. Their perspective is uneducated. They’re not at a point where all there is to do is repetition of content they’ve already done.

Actually, it’s those who are already level 80 and are clamoring for more content that should be excluded from the conversation, because they certainly do not represent a portion of the marketplace that has reasonable expectations of a $60 expenditure – or, for that matter, of video games in general.

That’s when reward has to be taken into account, because repetition of any activity diminishes its fun.

The only thing that diminishes the fun of an activity in my life is if I do it for reasons other than having fun. Playing pool doesn’t become “less fun” each time I play it. Barbecues on the back patio don’t become “less fun” each time I do it.

Now, if I do those things more often than I want to because of some other reason, then I’m not doing that thing because I enjoy it, but rather for some other reason. Then, it becomes like a job because I’m doing that thing for some reward other than the enjoyment of doing that thing in and of itself. Outdoor barbecues even cost me money. The pool table cost me money. I’m willing to foot the cost of doing those things over and over because I enjoy them.

You just made my point for me. If you don’t enjoy doing the dungeons enough to pay for it in whatever equipment fees you accrue, and if you get less enjoyment out of it every time you do it, then you’re not doing dungeons because they’re fun, you’re doing them because you want something else.

Which brings us back to the title of the thread, and to the game design philosophy. Just because you and others are willing to beat your heads against an unenjoyable wall for a some cosmetic carrot, don’t blame ANET for your frustration. You’re bringing it on yourself by forcing yourself to do something you don’t really enjoy doing for a cosmetic variance that has no significant in-game impact other than, I guess, to feed your sense of having “beat” the game.

Ranger 35, Elementalist 33, Warrior 20, Thief 12, Guardian 11.

10/10

SamTheGuardian.2938:

Listen carefully: all games are about the rewards. If there is no “win” scenario there is no fun.

I think, then, what we need is a new category: Massively Multi-user Online Role Playing World.

I think that what you said is a really pertinent point; for many of us, MMORPG’s were never so much “games” that you won, beat, or lost; they were alternate worlds to experience. The “game” part was more side-content, like a big “mini-game” to spice up the alternate world experience.

However, the past decade the MMORPG industry has been run by those who are more “gamers” than “world experiencers”, and so the industry has turned into mostly-games with some “alternate world” content – but the driving force of content, updates and structure has been for the game-player, not really so much for the “world-experiencer”.

When I get together with friends and family, most of the fun I experience has nothing to do with winning or losing any game we might play, but rather the total experience. Winning or losing a game is just side content.

I and many others see the advancement/progression/gear system in GW2 as side content, not the main focus as we adventure through Tyria. It seems ANET sees the game – to some extent – this same way, as a world people can experience together, and less of an endless “game” for people to “beat”; you can see it in the deep, broad way they’ve filled Tyria with stuff to experience that really has nothing to do with anything “competitive”, and have limited the progression/“winning” capacity.

I just hope they don’t lose sight of this and start focusing too much on the “gamers” who need the carrot to have a good time. Since they burn through content the fastest, they are often the ones to start complaining early and often about “lack of content”, as if character/gear progression mechanics was the only content available in the world of Tyria.

ANET: Don’t lose sight of who your long-term, cash-shop customers will likely be. We’re the ones that will buy all kinds of non-progression oriented items and ultimately be the most profitable for you.

Lately, these kind of games have been called “MMOGs”, where the “RP” has been dropped because developers have in recent years been largely unconcerned with the “RP” aspect, and have focused on the “Game” aspect.

It seems to me that GW2 was created with more of a focus on it as an massively multiplayer fantasy role-playing experience. Not to say that there is not a great game here, with great game features, but the detail, beauty, diversity, breadth and depth of Tyria points to almost a devotion to those of us who are less “gamers” and more with experiencing a 3D fantasy world.

While I understand that ANET must pay attention to balancing and developing the “game” aspects of GW2, I want to point something out: the more into the “game” aspect of GW2 one is, and the less interested on is in being a world experiencer, the less likely (IMO) one is in buying cash shop items that give no significant game advantage. Those of us who are here to create characters we love to adventure through Tyria with for a long, long time, however much we RP or just enjoy exploring all the wonderful details of the world – well, we’re much more likely to buy “fluff” from your cash shop on an ongoing basis.

Anet, please don’t let the “game” part of GW2 swamp all the development time. We world experiences will pay cash for content that has nothing to do with “beating” the game, or “competing” in the game aspect of GW2.

Please add develop diverse content. Please have some people that continue thinking of “world experience” content so GW2 doesn’t become lopsided towards the hardcore gamers.

1. More emotes – sell us some emote packages – with voice, if possible.

2. More gear templates to buy, please, and please remember that not everyone likes WoW-style gaudy. Not everyone want’s to play a dark, threatening type.

3. More city clothes options, please.

4. Variant animation packages – let me walk differently, run differently, jump differently, dance packages, 2-person dances, slow dances. Not everyone is 20. Can we get a 2-person ballroom dance? How about putting in animation packages for the three character history options? Nobleman, commoner, street rat?

5. Can I sit in a chair, please?

6. Can we please get a 1st person view? Can we get some more camera freedom? I don’t want to be in every screenshot or vid I take, and I’d like to be able to have some extra latitude when taking a vid.

7. Fireworks?

More to come later Thanks for the great Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Experience. I never thought I’d see one again.

Why are people complaining SO HARD about things.

Some people go through life looking for what’s “wrong” everywhere they go. Often times when people consider themselves a professional or knowledgeable about a topic, their first reaction is to point out what they consider to be flaws.

Recently I had a concrete patio poured at the back of my house, and everyone was having a great time with a barbecue later, and my brother who has some experience with pouring concrete started talking about the flaws – the angle was too steep, they got some concrete splash on the house, the poured it too close to the tree.

Here were people partying and having a great time on the new patio, and all he could do was criticize what he thought were flaws.

Remind you of anything?

Tyncale.1629:

The really, really immersive world. The vistas, the handmade look of mountainranges, caves, lakes, the constant dialogue of NPC’s, the children running around, the seamless transition to underwater areas, all the stuff lying around that you can pick up, and does odd (and sometimes useful!) stuff. Listening to the dialogue of an event-chain and just be immersed.

I can not believe some people that say the PvE is just a bonus in this game, that must really hurt the world-builders…..

I can’t believe the amount of work that was obviously put in this … well, I can hardly call it a game. GW2 is more like an Alternate World Experience than anything I’ve encountered so far. It’s really just amazing. That’s right, it’s a MMORPAWE. I said it.

nastyjman.8207:

Tlu.4269:

Knote.2904:

I don’t really roleplay much, but whenever someone is downed or dies I get overly emotional as I try to save them from the brink of death.

Always fun.

I tend to yell out “This man needs help!!” or “He was so young…”

Good times, indeed.

WTB emote that lets you fall down on your knees, look up in the sky and cry out “NNNNOOOOO!!!!!!!”

I’d LOVE to see packages of emotes you can either buy with gems or get some other way that include new animations, sound effects, voice acting with this kind of stuff in it. I’d also like to see some kind of macro system where you can have “catch-phrases” pre-loaded so fumble-fingers like me don’t get ourselves killed trying to write things out.

On second thought, I think maybe someone is having us on. Didn’t speed through the game? C’mon, man.

Knuckledust.5621:

And before anyone else says this: I did not sped through content or rushed it in any ways. I played about 6 hours daily which I think is comparatively short to the average MMO player.

According to the Daedalus Project, the average MMO player spends about 3 hrs a day playing, so no, 6 hours a day is twice as much as the average player.

In any event, getting 250 hours of entertainment for $60 is a fantastic value, and I really don’t know of anything that would still be exciting or even interesting to me after spending 250 hrs on it in one month.

Gave.9408:

If you can honestly say you’d still play this game without levels, stats, gear, or any sort of progression / reward, then you’re certainly not the MAJORITY of MMO players – in fact, you’re a fraction much smaller than even the RPers, I would believe.

I agree I’m not in the majority of MMO players. The question is, is that because there aren’t a lot of players like me, or is that because there aren’t any significant MMOs that offer the kind of game design and philosophy that would attract players like me to such a game? How many people play SIMS? How many play “angry birds”? How may play solitaire?

And yes, I’d play this game if all gear was just cosmetic variance and there were no levels.

It’s amusing to watch these so-called “true” gamers defend an obviously flawed system in which they are entirely oblivious as to their own motivation.

More amusing than someone who professes to know their motivation better than them?

I don’t see any of them calling themselves “true” gamers. Just because you and I have different motivations for playing doesn’t mean my motivation is better than yours. It just means we have different motivations. If I have a complaint, it’s that you and people like you seem to refuse to believe that we simply do not play games for the same reasons you do, nor do you seem content to allow us to have and enjoy a game that is designed in accordance with our view, even when you and others have scores of games that service and celebrate your progression-centric motivation.

I mean, really? You can’t allow us to have one single game in the MMOG market that isn’t progress/reward-centric without complaining and criticising and trying to change it?

Levelord.5746:

Why can’t the game be both?

Can’t the game be fun and rewarding?

Why must it be one or the other?

Nobody said it “must be” reward centric or fun centric. What I said is that GW2 is fun-centric, and not reward-centric, and that this is a deliberate design by ANET.

If it was reward- or progression-centric then you wouldn’t be grinding for cosmetics (see how I defined “rewards” in the O.P.) – you’d be grinding for rewards.

Please don’t mistake what I wrote to be about how I think games should be or to be about how players should play. It’s not about that.

Gambit.7836:

A major flaw in the “fun-centric” model: the game lacks replay value and, once you hit 80, is no longer fun. Ouch.

Then I guess it’s a good thing I’m playing 5 different characters now, plan on getting more, and probably won’t hit 80 with any of them for over a year.

Seriously, I think that it is the progress-centric people that have a hard time having fun after hitting 80. The fun-centric people don’t need to progress to have fun, so hitting 80 doesn’t really change anything.

FarFarAway.6579:

Leveling to 80 is rewarding. Leveling crafting to 400 is rewarding. These are not primary activities in the game? Why not just take away all the levels? Start out at 80 with 400 crafting skill.

Because it’s not “either/or”, and nobody made the case that it is, or that it should be. Just because the game has progression in it doesn’t make it a progression-centric game. You can have progression in a game without that progression being the main reason to do anything.

Hickeroar.9734:

I’ll admit I’ve had a lot of moments of frustration due to the relative lack of “rewards” and “gold” compared to games like WoW. Then I have to remember that I invested thousands of hours in games like Counterstrike or Unreal Tournament back in the early 00’s…and those games had NO concept of a reward other than success, or failure.

What it is, is a rewiring process. I’m getting to where I “get it,” but all these modern MMOs have basically programmed all of us to “Do A” and “Expect B in return.” The “need” for gold or gear to have fun in the game is actually minimal or non existent. Granted, i think the repair and waypoint costs are about 3-5x what they should be, but overall, I think the balance of income vs spending is not too far off.

Once you get out of the “got to get ahead” mindset, it all makes sense. It’s just very hard to escape that mindset after being programmed for a decade.

Exactly! Yeah, I still have to retrain myself. I was thinking the other day … I ’m leveling too fast .. but too fast for what? I can go back and do anything via the deleveling system. The skinner system is effective and hard to let go of because (as one can see by many of the posts here), after the skinner training, getting that carrot becomes the only reason you feel motivated to do anything.

Dark Savior.7589:

Here is the problem I have with this argument from the OP. The expectation of being rewarded isn’t from some “shift” in gaming, or even from other MMO’s/RPG’s..

I didn’t claim it was. I didn’t claim there was anything wrong with a reward-centric game. I said that there are a lot of games that people enjoy playing that have no rewards and no progression, and that there is already a glut on the MMOG market of skinner box games, like WoW, RIFT, AION, TERA, AoC and SWTOR, and many more. There was no reason to buy GW2 with those games already on the market and serving the interests of those who enjoy progression/reward centric games.

Gave.9408:

If this game is not about progress or reward, then take out levels and anything with a stat on it.

That way, like the OP suggested, we can start to focus on the proverbial “fun” and forget about the “reward”.

Otherwise, everyone in this thread advocating the promotion of “fun over reward” is being entirely hypocritical.

That would be true if anyone had made an either/or claim about fun vs reward. The game is fun-centric, not fun-exclusive. Rewards are a part of the game, just not the primary focus. If that was the case, you’d be able to grind for something other than cosmetic variances, and progress would never stop.

Eochaidh.4106:

Artorous.8573:

I’ve never heard of this, nor seen it happen while playing. Could you perhaps post a link to a video? And I don’t want to see a beta video, if it’s happening now then I’d like to see a video of it happening recently. Until then I kinda have to go with it’s not happening.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFcm85VMehg

Thanks for the video – now at least I’ll know it’s not some skill or item being used I’m unfamiliar with and report them.

Knote.2904:

But rewards are fun.

Doing fun content and being rewarded is double fun.

Do you not want double fun?

That would apply if I had argued that being rewarded wasn’t fun, or if I had argued that we shouldn’t be rewarded for our in-game activities. What I said was that this isn’t a reward-centric game. And no, I don’t want it to become a reward-centric game.

Ktham.6947:

Why implement dungeon sets that require farming, if you’re going to nerf farming? Makes no sense. Dungeons already have a high maintenance cost, why not reward the player?

If you’re doing a dungeon for the fun of it, you’re not farming it. If you’re doing it for the rewards, you’re farming it. In GW2, rewards are considered to be bonuses for doing fun things, not something to be “farmed” for their own sake. Which is the difference between a “grind” and something that is not a grind; if you’re going to be running dungeons anyway because you enjoy doing that sort of thing, it’s not a grind to get the gear. If you are only doing the dungeons to get the gear, then it’s a grind.

Elydian.1763:

The problem though, is that ArenaNet were clearly aiming for mass market with GW2, which means it can’t be niche….They have to be able to embrace people transferring from WoW.

While every game aims for a large customer base, I disagree with your reasoning here. It seems to me that plainly evident in the game design, manifesto and marketing campaign is the philosophy that they were primarily appealing to people that did not care for WoW (and standard MMOG) mechanisms. By definition this means that if you enjoy the fundamental structures and mechanisms of WoW and WoW-like clones, there’s a good chance you will not care for GW2 design.

IMO, Anet believes there is a mass market for GW2 out there, but it is not comprised of people that are happy with WoW-like game structure and mechanisms, but rather likely do not play MMOGs any more because they are all like WoW.

The problem though, was that they assumed that a game changing at endgame was necessarily a bad thing.

No, they didn’t. They just said that it’s been done, and is being done by everyone. Why try to reinvent the wheel when other games – especially WoW – already basically has that kind of system perfected and has years of content depth already ready for players? It’s not about good vs bad game design, it’s about game design that appeals to different prospective customer bases. There’s plenty of games to appeal to the reward and progression-centric player .

It’s not, in fact, it has to change, because leveling is about progression for a lot of people, and when the leveling stops, that feeling of progression has to remain else there’s a feeling that the game has ended. Only PvP games can survive this.

I understand that many of you feel that way, and believe it. However, once again, I and many others don’t share that view. Just because you cannot imagine enough people playing mainly for reasons other than character progression and rewards doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

GW2 very nearly provides this, and can potentially completely satisfy this mindset. The problem isn’t even a gear progression problem, it’s the sense that we’re being forced to over-do the content to gain any badge at all. In short it’s far too grindy. The other problem is that the monetary rewards are being diminished to a point where we can’t even break even anymore when taking travel and repairs into account.

So you are saying that the content difficulty (read: grind) between you and a cosmetic badge that does nothing more, functionally speaking, than announce that you have completed some really difficult content … is too difficult? Well, okay, I think that it’s fair to make such a complaint if you wish, and it’s fair for Anet to look into it. If nobody is doing that content, then it probably needs to be adjusted.

I’m well aware of this, however, many do, and you can’t just say that this isn’t the game for them, as that’s a drastic oversimplification of the big picture. …This game truly has the potential to please both, so why stop short?

There might just be a semantic difference we’re stumbling over, but surely you realize that the MMOG marketplace is full of opposing desires that simply cannot be satisfied within a single game? While some reward/progression centric people might be satisfied with equal rewards (see definition in O.P.) for other less demanding playstyles, I personally don’t think that’s a significant part of the marketplace.

That’s not true. It’s because it’s what they like, because, well, it’s an aspect of human nature to be satisfied by progress. Why do you think so many genre games are starting to record all sorts of stats on players? Look at Battlefield 3. People enjoy being able to amass a portfolio of achievement. It’s human nature.

People enjoy and are satisfied by all sorts of things – I’m not arguing otherwise. Not all games offer all things to all people, and some things cannot be offered by the same game because they serve contradictory, exclusive interests.

And who’s being exclusionary now?

All games have to exclude things to have any form or function, and especially to serve a game philosophy/design. Because people want to be able to permanently kill characters or take their stuff doesn’t mean it should be in every game. Just because some people like to farm for rewards doesn’t mean every game should allow or endorse farming for rewards.

Every time I log in, I’m just wide-eyed with wonder – even the stuff I’ve already done 20 times, man, it’s so much fun, and so beautiful to look at.

FarFarAway.6579:

You can’t tell thousands of MMO players who enjoy progression not to enjoy progression, or that they should find certain activities fun, like doing the same types of things as other MMOs, but without the point in doing them.

Nobody is trying to tell them that. What ANET explained over and over was that this is not a progression-centric, or reward-centric game. Some players enjoy full open-world PvP and exploiting things in game for their benefit and griefing other players through mechanisms like kill-stealing and node-jacking. ANET doesn’t tell them not to enjoy those things; it just doesn’t provide for those playstyles and “fun” activities in GW2 because it conflicts with game design philosophy.

Most players want some overarching purpose of doing what they’re doing. Otherwise it just feels like a colossal waste of time (which it is anyway, but at least with character development you feel like you got something out of it).

Source for this info? Perhaps most players want that; perhaps most don’t care about it. Perhaps most players get their sense of “overarching purpose” out of life, and don’t look for it from games they play.

Rizzy.8293:

Getting rewarded is pretty fun, you should try it.

I enjoy being rewarded. It’s not the reason I play a game. It’s the reason I have a job. I already have a job. I don’t look to games for “rewards”. They’re nice. They’re fun. They’re not why I play a game.

Vzur.7123:

My issue with this sort of logic is that if it added up, or if they really truly believed it, why even have levels? Why not just let us run around having fun in the game, without needing to entice us with progression?

Why does this suddenly become true at 80, but not before that?

You’re confusing a game that is not reward-centric, or progression-centric, with a game that has no rewards or progression. Of course Anet knows that people enjoy progression and rewards, but not everyone wants progression and rewards to be the fundamental reason for playing. When reward progression becomes the core design philosophy, you have a skinner-box game.

There’s nothing wrong with skinner box games, it’s just that there’s a glut of them on the market – WoW, AION, TERA, SWTOR, RIFT .. etc, etc. Why make another one? Who do you think you’re going to appeal to by making the same game with yet another skin on it? You can’t compete with WoW for skinner box customers – AION, RIFT, TERA and SWTOR all found this out.

Elydian.1763:

The problem with what you’re saying is that rewards play a part in people’s enjoyment of the game. The two things are not mutually exclusive.

I covered this. People find lots of things in various MMOG’s fun; it’s not necessary that Anet provide for or allow everything that any player finds to be fun.

Calling a reward system a ‘Skinner Box’ goes too far. I’m well aware of some MMO developers resorting to cheap Skinner Box techniques to trick people into continuing to play (I’m looking at you, Blizzard). But including a reward system in the game, rewards with which you can purchase items within the game, adds to its depth.

I didn’t say that reward systems are all skinner box systems; however, most rewards-centric games are indeed skinner box games. GW2 has a reward system, but the game is not rewards-centric.

As bad as WoW has become, Blizzard understood, subscription or not, that in order to hold on to players, you need to give them a consistent challenge and feeling of progression.

People play – and keep playing – all sorts of games, over and over, that offer no such systematic reward system.

It’s like the argument made back when the added sound to film, and for a long time all movies were musicals. Nobody even thought of making a movie that wasn’t a musical, with song and dance numbers.

Although it might be hard for you to imagine, not everyone plays MMOGs primarily for the systematic reward progression.

‘Fun’ is a non-word, as it’s far too subjective to ever be considered an objective value in its own right. Plenty of people find being challenged and rewarded, and progressing incredibly fun. You don’t, evidently, but you can’t just encourage those sorts of people to just leave the game, else I think you’ll find the game will fail, just like SWTOR did before, for the same basic reason: there was nothing for PvEers to do at 80 after a couple of months.

Yes, and they thought all non-musical movies would fail, because nobody would go to see them. I understand that you believe that such a system is the only way an MMOG can succeed, but Anet stated right up front that this was not that kind of game. It’s like the producer and director tell you “this movie is not a musical” and then you pay to go see the movie and complain “OMG!! There are no song and dance numbers! You need to put in song and dance numbers!”

Also, I’d like to point out a problem in your argument. There is plenty of challenge, reward, and progressing available in GW2, especially in the form of creating alts and learning entirely different skill sets. What is not available, however, is the ability to invest endless amounts of time in your character to make them significantly more powerful than the characters of players who don’t play the way you do, or for the reasons you do. Again, this is core philosophy that was explained before purchase in many venues.

As far as SWTOR, IMO they suffer from the same problem that plagues TERA, RIFT, AION and other recent releases; they are fundamentally gear-grind, reward-centric games that attempt to toss some scraps and cookies to anyone playing the game for other reasons, making them – essentially – WoW clones. Why should a gear and reward-centric player quit WoW for any of those games? Answer: there is no real reason, except for those that just want a different skin on what is fundamentally the same game.

By the same token, why should casual players leave WoW for SWTOR, TERA, RIFT or AION? There’s no reason to, other than a different skin on the same “you’re our scrub mass populace by which other players can feel superior” game.

GW2 is different because it is fundamentally designed to celebrate the more casual playstyles. It has abandoned the gear-centric reward-grind model, and embraces playing for the fun of it (while not embracing EVERYTHING anyone might find “fun”). No elitist raids, no uberguild exclusionary in-game mechanics. They celebrate the explorers, the soloers, the jumpers, the quiet introverts, the RPers, the crafters, the resource collecters, the helpers; they’ve taken out virtually all griefing mechanics and made it so that you’re always glad to see other players and you’re not subject to the petty tyranny of in-game jerks who play all day long every day.

So GW2 has given the casual populace of other games a sound reason to give up their scrubby scraps tossed at them by other developers and come to Tyria where they are the new kings of the design. Here, Anet has reiterated in no uncertain terms in the latest patches that we – those that play for non-reward centric fun of it – are indeed those that Anet treasures and wants to keep happy, and has put a big red flag up to reward-farmers that no, this is not that kind of game, and you will not turn it into one.

Drudenfusz.2971:

For some people getting rewards is an important part of their fun.

For some people, raiding, grinding superior gear, exploiting or griefing other players is an important part of their fun. Those things aren’t in this game, either. It’s not Anet’s job to include in GW2 everything everyone finds fun, or to allow people to do anything in the game they find to be fun.

Kana.6793:

If you enjoy grinding dungeons then you can still do 20 dungeons a day if you particularly want to. And before someone says “oh but whats the point with the rewards nerfed”, well then you don’t really enjoy grinding dungeons do you?

Exactamundo, mah brotha! Then they try and cover by saying they just want to be appropriately rewarded for their time, risk and effort – once again, if you really enjoy doing X, you do it even though it costs you to do it – you don’t stop doing it just because you aren’t making a profit at it.

Deith.7596:

It’s not their job to tell me what’s fun and what’s not. If someone enjoys farming, let him do it.

You might as well say that if someone enjoys griefing, raiding or grinding for exclusive, superior gear, let them do it. Just because you have fun doing something doesn’t mean Anet has to put it in the game or allow it.

It’s Anet’s job to protect the integrity of their game design and core philosophy. There are lots of things that a lot of people find fun that doesn’t fit in with their game philosophy, but they’re not going to put those things in the game or allow their game to be used that way just because some people find those activities to be fun.

There are plenty of games that allow – even promote – farming for rewards. Those games have become reward-centric games because of it. Anet doesn’t want GW2 to be like those games, so it is taking measures to limit the farming of rewards.

Zenyatoo.4059:

“IMO, Anet is promoting the concept that everything you do in GW2 should be because you enjoy doing that thing, not because you’re trying to get rewards for doing that thing. "

But if you enjoy farming, grinding dungeons, dungeons in general, or any of the things they’ve nerfed recently then you are kitten out of luck.

The idea of playing for funs sake makes perfect sense, right up until the point where they started making it impossible to do things that for many players were fun!

I addressed this in the post. Farming for rewards goes against their basic design philosophy of equitable rewards for all playstyles because it favors the farming playstyle. They don’t want farmers to be rewarded extra because they farm.

How long do you see yourself playing GW2?

Until the sun goes all supernova on us.

I’m going to define “reward” as “something that has functional use in the game”; i.e., non-cosmetic rewards like gold, resources, karma, gear, etc.

The game philosophy is that everyone – as much as possible – is rewarded for doing what they enjoy doing, and that no playstyle will be favored over any other in terms of reward. If you like to solo, group, craft, do events and hearts, explore, do dungeons or PvP, then you are rewarded (as defined above) more or less equitably without any significant favoritism built into the code.

The whole point of “the whole game is the end game” philosophy is that Anet wants everything you do to be “end game” in quality and quantity; this means that if gathering resources and exploring and killing random mobs is as “end game” as explore mode dungeons and ORR and WvW, then it should offer the same kind of rewards.

If all these diverse aspects of the game do not offer fundamentally equitable rewards, and more/better/superior rewards are offered via some particular aspect of the game, that particular aspect, which will favor a particular playstyle, becomes the de facto “end game” and all other playstyles start becoming marginalized, because “what they can do” is less profitable in terms of reward than what others are doing.

I’ve noticed in crafting that even finding new recipes for the same kind of item gives diminishing rewards. I suspect that any kind of repetitious farming for any kind of reward will be dealt with the same way. This means that GW2 is actually sticking to its “everything is the end game” mentality of keeping rewards equitable for every playstyle, including that between casuals and hardcore players. The farming code provides more casual players with better rewards most of the time they play, and more hardcore players with diminishing rewards for their efforts.

If you’re trying to gain rewards, they become harder and harder to obtain by continuously doing any particular aspect of the game. So, we can say that if you’re playing to max out your rewards, Anet has put (and is still working on) – basically – kind of cap on how much reward you can get in GW2 ( at least for doing the same kind of thing over and over at a sitting). This serves both the design philosophy and helps diminish the profitability of botting.

However, if you’re doing something because you enjoy the thing you’re doing, and not because of you’re trying to maximize rewards, then the fact that rewards are diminished shouldn’t matter. If you enjoy doing a thing so much in-game that you’re willing to spend hours and hours doing that same thing over and over, then again, by Anet’s philosophy, it should be because you enjoy doing that thing, not because you’re trying to maximize game reward for your time.

IMO, Anet is promoting the concept that everything you do in GW2 should be because you enjoy doing that thing, not because you’re trying to get rewards for doing that thing. The game is designed to serve the interest of those that enjoy doing a thing, and not to serve the interests of those that are intent on maximizing rewards for doing that thing. The game structure of “you may or may not get a reward for X”, or" you will get diminished rewards for doing X over and over" demonstrates this philosophy.

This is not a carrot-based, skinner-box game, nor does it seek to celebrate any particular playstyle with superior (or more) rewards. Yes, you can play it that way, and you will get diminished returns for doing so. When you “figure out” how to get more rewards for your time than other players, Anet nerfs it because that is their design philosophy. Everywhere that you expect to get more/better rewards for your time than any other player, you will probably be disappointed, because GW2 is not a rewards (as defined above) based game. It has rewards in it, but it is not designed around rewards as being the reason people play the game.

You might not like that philosophy, and you might think an MMOG cannot succeed employing (and sticking to) that philosophy, but Anet has demonstrated over and over that this is their philosophy, and that they plan on adhering to it. The game is designed to serve those that play for the fun of it over the interests of those who play to maximize rewards.

You might counter that your way of “having fun” is to maximize rewards; you can also say that your way of “having fun” is to grief other players or to grind for superior gear. There are some things that people find fun that are not available in GW2 because those things do not serve their basic design philosophy.

GW2 is a fun-centric game, not a rewards-centric game. If you play MMOGs primarily to farm/maximize rewards, you’re going to be disappointed. For those of us who just play in MMOGs to have fun doing whatever thing we’re doing and for whom rewards are just a secondary bonus for our activity, Anet’s philosophy is the greatest thing since pocketbread.

Dradiin:

You don’t get loot from every creature you kill in the world. Even fighting regular creatures, you can end up at a financial loss to repairs and waypoint expense. Why should champion creatures be any different?

Knote.2904:

There’s no reason a Champion mob should be giving basically 10% more than what a normal mob gives in xp/loot.

Sure there is: it’s called adhering to your game design philosophy.

Knote.2904:

This game really does have a screwed up risk/reward ratio.

If by “screwed up” you mean “unlike most MMOGs on the market”, you are correct, and that difference was made abundantly clear.

Knote.2904:

If I find myself taking on a champion mob I don’t want it to be a waste of time.

If it is a “waste of time” because you are not being compensated more (read: superior) than what anyone else does in the game, then you’re playing the wrong game. Please note that you’ve pretty much defined everything in the game as a “waste of time” if you don’t feel you are being “properly” compensated for it with loot.

GW2 is not a “superior reward” or “risk= reward” game when it comes to anything other than cosmetics or a sense of fun, adventure, accomplishment, and enjoyment. You do not get superior, game-functional rewards for added effort or risk in GW2. Their anti-farming code and dungeon loot restrictions drive this point home that this is their philosophy, in case you missed it for the past couple of years.

Knote.2904:

At least drop a guaranteed blue item (not like those are worth much) and a couple supply pouches. Something.

You do get something – the same thing everyone else gets for whatever they are doing. You just think you’re entitled to more than they get because of your particular playstyle, and because of what you in particular enjoy doing.

Knote.2904:

Doing stuff “just for fun” doesn’t cut it in MMORPG’s.

Apparently, you had zero info about ANet, GW1 or GW2 before purchasing. That is, in a nutshell, their design philosophy. Do stuff for fun, and get equal rewards for basically whatever you enjoy doing. I’m sorry you didn’t get the memo.

Dradiin.8935:

Wintyre Fraust.6534:

Dradiin.8935:

I play a game to be rewarded for the amount of effort i put into it, but i do not feel like my time is being properly rewarded. Some people will say well you can have “Fun” that’s a reward in itself, sure it has its place, but i expect more then just a challenging experience. If i just wanted to kill stuff for “fun’s” sake i would go find that game and have “fun”.

GW2 has been advertised as a MMORPG and when i get into MMORPGs i have certain expectations about it. My most primary expectation is being compensated for the amount of effort i put into the game.

Seriously, ANET made all of this very clear for the past couple of years, but it was made especially clear in the past 6 months. What you want “fixed” is, pardon the cliche, a fully explained and established feature of the game. GW2 is simply not the kind of game you want; it doesn’t offer anyone superior rewards for added time, effort, or risk.

I know that’s difficult for many to wrap their minds around, but it’s really just supposed to be that way.

I was never asking for superior rewards, i was asking for some kind of reward….. something anything, doing an event and helping Gort only to get to mine a stupid copper mine is not a reward, its an insult.

What you are describing is not what i was describing.

I do not want in anyway shape or form gear progression, i want to be rewarded for my time (if even slightly) so please stop with the hysterics and make sure to read what i said first.

I didn’t say you wanted gear progression. You want rewards to match your effort (time, risk), which would mean superior (more gold, which is a factual advantage, not a cosmetic one) for superior effort (more time, risk). This isn’t that kind of game. It’s not about rewarding superior effort with superior rewards, whether that means “better gear” or “more gold”.

This was made abundantly clear in the design philosophy of the game; you do not get superior rewards for superior effort. You get cosmetic rewards for superior effort. Gold is not a cosmetic reward.

Dradiin.8935:

I play a game to be rewarded for the amount of effort i put into it, but i do not feel like my time is being properly rewarded. Some people will say well you can have “Fun” that’s a reward in itself, sure it has its place, but i expect more then just a challenging experience. If i just wanted to kill stuff for “fun’s” sake i would go find that game and have “fun”.

GW2 has been advertised as a MMORPG and when i get into MMORPGs i have certain expectations about it. My most primary expectation is being compensated for the amount of effort i put into the game.

Seriously, ANET made all of this very clear for the past couple of years, but it was made especially clear in the past 6 months. What you want “fixed” is, pardon the cliche, a fully explained and established feature of the game. GW2 is simply not the kind of game you want; it doesn’t offer anyone superior rewards for added time, effort, or risk.

I know that’s difficult for many to wrap their minds around, but it’s really just supposed to be that way.

Zenyatoo.4059:

Gathslan.1870:

There is a point.

Having FUN.

Well no one seems to be having any. So i’d say it was missed fairly entirely :<

I think you’re mistaking “yourself” and a handful of people in the forum for “everyone”.

How can you not get enough experience from a zone to move on to the next, when there is no end to the experience you can get out of any zone?

Banewrath.5107:

I`m a little confused. Is an invisible bag like the equipment packs from gw1? If so where do you get them?

You can craft them, or buy them from other crafters at the trading post.

Kaine.3501:

Actually you are wrong. I understood perfectly who they were aiming at. The sad part is they missed their mark and did NOTHING to help the game. Why in the hell would you promote a trailer that has nothing about the game in it?

Have you ever watched commercials? Most memorable commercials have nothing to do per se with with the product. What do a bunch of dancing people in the streets or polar bears have to do with soda? What does anything in a beer commercial have to do with the beer being sold? Generally, you only see the product at the end of a commercial, and often you have no idea what the commercial is about until the end.

Most advertising is about establishing an emotional connection and attachment between consumer and product. You want your target market to identify with the product being sold, and that is done by visually connecting people you are like, or want to be like, or feel that you are like, with the product in some way. You want to also create buzz and make an impression – make people talk about it, think about it.

Mission accomplished.

You didn’t understand the trailer, or who it was marketed to. The “Our Time is Now” wasn’t about the game story or characters in the game – it’s directed at a section of the market that has been disenfranchised by the direction of MMOGs the past decade – which is why the oppressed and the underclass and the rebels (in the trailer) are invited to move past the paralysis of even trying a new MMO because of the fear that it is just a repackaged version of the status quo. They – the casuals, the RPers, the soloers, etc. – can now enter the game – walk across the coals that have burned them for so long – come together on their terms, playing their individual way, and enjoy the same kind of epic encounters that used to be reserved only for the elite – represented by the sequence at the end of the trailer.

It’s perfect marketing – it shows me that Anet really does understand who their target market is, and gives me hope that they can withstand the vocal minority that would change the game back into the status quo.

Same goes for me, stark. What an amazing, refreshing experience GW2 is!

The thing about this game is that you can sight-see anywhere – it’s that beautiful in every nook and cranny!

Same issue here occasionally in big WvW events.

I had stopped playing MMOG’s years ago, and figured really that there never would be one I’d be interested in playing. So glad to be wrong!

Same here, and same for most people I know in the game. This is the best, most beautiful, most enjoyable video game I’ve ever played.

aedra.8361:

molitar.8534:

Of all the MMO games I have played GW armor is ugly. No cool looking armor just to be cool looking. I do not know who designs the armor but why no cool swashbuckler style armor for light armor.. why is it all so ugly. I play a Female Ranger and armor is ugly no female style at all in the armor.. same with the male armor. I ultimately hate the looks of almost all the armor in GW.

You clearly haven’t seen EQ2’s armor. They’re the pinnacle of ugly, not to mention plasticy. This is one of the few games where I like almost all of the armor and I’m damed picky.

No kidding. Those ugly EQ2 graphics drove me out of the game in about 1 month.

My Asura ranger has been through about 3 different looks and is only level 31, and I loved each look. My Human thief is level 11 and I’m thinking about saving his current set and using it for the graphical template for higher level gear. It’s exactly as I envisioned him.

Vzur.7123:

Right, GW2 has endless gear grinding for cosmetic items, instead. That makes much more sense :p

Well, let’s look at it this way; in GW2, you don’t have to gear grind in order to have the most powerful gear to play in WvW or Orr or top level dungeons, so it’s not a “must have” in order to compete at top level in those venues.

Thus, cosmetic gear can really only be pursued out of a “want to have”, not a “need to have” motivation, which I think appropriately defines the difference between a “grind” one feels is necessary to endure, and a “challenge” one simply wishes to take on.

Untouch.2541:

To the people saying “there’s going to be cookie cutter builds”, so what?
These people are called “mix maxers” and are generally awful at the game, trying to run everything as fast as possible, disregarding the content.

The best part is that I can completely ignore such builds and still end up with quality gear as good as anyone else because dungeon runs don’t give you better gear. There is no game mechanic that is “forcing” me into any such mold.

They are all a hoot to play.

Banewrath.5107:

Wintyre Fraust.6534:

Great post, Proeliator.8740. I agree whole-heartedly. I’m so glad ANET has broken the mold and has liberated players from having to create cookie-cutter builds.

I wouldn`t be so sure about that. If you want to run dungeons easily, there is going to be a cookie cutter build to optimize it. Like a guild group for example, They will most likely discuss what skills they are bringing to the table and once they find combinations that work well and word gets out, it`s cookie cutter because everyone will want everyone to use that template since it makes it easier on everyone else. This is really no different then any other mmo when it comes to character skills and how you set them up.

I have no intention of going into any dungeons, and that’s the beauty of this game. I don’t have to in order to get top quality, great looking gear