If you answer the survey “no, I didn’t take part in the event” they give you a space to write in why. If you say that you didn’t invite anyone to come play the event, it gives you another space to write in why. I used this feedback for to let ANET know my feelings about how they betrayed us with Ascended gear.
I suggest everyone do the same.
Let me diagnose this :
The most verbal people seem to be previous GW1 players.
Your problem is not that ANet changed the manifesto (although I too think a company should stick to what its vision is but we all know visions can change through time) it’s that you want GW2 to be an upgraded GW1 and you refute any change that will put that in cause.You are forgetting something though, it’s ANet’s vision not yours. ANet will change that vision as they see fit and you either accept it or move on to something that fulfills your requirements.
This game is not about character progression. Why on earth do people believe it is? This isnt a character progression MMO. You hit 80, you complete your story. Its up to you where to go next, much like the rest of your leveling experience. Up to you.
Theres no character progression.So let’s be extreme then. I can’t see an rpg without character progression. Before being an mmo this game is an RPG. You seem to suggest then that you wouldn’t even need to lvl past lvl 1 and just have to farm for skins with everything handed out to everyone from the start so we all started on the same terms.
Is that it?
Seriously if you say GW2 isn’t about character progression I would like to know what you call from 1-80 and quite frankly after 80 it’s exactly the same except you don’t gain levels anymore. Think about it for a sec there.
I’d LOVE to play an MMOG without levels or any vertical character progression whatsoever.
“Seriously if you say GW2 isn’t about character progression I would like to know what you call from 1-80 and quite frankly after 80 it’s exactly the same except you don’t gain levels anymore. Think about it for a sec there.”
The point isn’t that there is progression in the game; the point is that there was supposed to be a hard cap to progression. For many of us, the “progression” from 1-80 was ENDURABLE because we knew that eventually we’d have a permanently maxed out characters.
Many players don’t find the stuff available to do in a game “fun” if they cannot endlessly increase their stats.
Many players don’t find the stuff available to do in the game “fun” unless there is a permanent stat cap.
You can’t please both camps. GW2 was billed and sold as the latter, and after taking the money from that group for a successful launch, switched the structure of the game to serve the stat-treadmillers.
Don’t tell us to do what is fun; what fun there was in GW2 was only fun for many of us because of the hard stat cap. Without that, we might as well be playing Tera or WoW.
If what you find fun is the ability to max out characters and suit them up with maxed out gear and dress them up cosmetically and take them around the world doing stuff, playing with different builds and weapons, then – especially as a casual player – this game can no longer be fun, because in order to have a maxed out (stat-wise) character we’ll have to do nothing but gear grind – which is not what we do for fun.
There are many elements in any MMOG that I find “fun” to do in and of themselves – even WoW. Your argument could be applied to anyone who is unhappy or dissatisfied playing those games – “just do what you find fun, and don’t do what you don’t find to be fun”. You’d basically have to dislike everything about a game to stop playing.
You’re missing the point. What a lot of people find to be “fun” is maxing out (stat and level-wise) characters – many of them, dressing them up in cool skins, and doing stuff like WvW, events, new content, even old content while collecting tokens and gold and karma to collect variant versions of their maxed out gear to try different builds in different situations.
Now, if the game has become an endless stat or level treadmill, how can I have fun? I can’t create a stable of maxed-out characters (especially if I am a casual player). I can’t create different maxed-out gear collections. I can’t really even farm for cosmetics because now all my time must be used to grind an endless power-creep gear treadmill.
So, while I may enjoy fighting the same centaurs or ogres over and over with different kinds of characters (and heck, even with the same character), the problem is that such activity is only superficially fun if I know that character will never, ever be maxed out. It will never even be close to maxed out. It was superficially fun for a long time in WoW until I realized that my long-term goal was unattainable: I would never have a maxed-out character. I would never be able to max out alts and try out different max-stat builds.
So, while many things in the game remain, in and of themselves, superficially enjoyable (the art, the animations, the story, the NPC characters, the events), the problem is that my long-term, ultimate plans for my characters and for my time in GW2 can no longer be achieved. This new direction has robbed me of being able to achieve my long-term goals.
Sure, you could say that I can just change my long-term goals and focus on killing mobs or DEs or heart quests, but without the long-term context and framework those immediate enjoyments become hollow and unfulfilling.
You see, the hardcore gear-grinders have similar long-term goals. Many of them probably have an additional goal of always having better stats than anyone that doesn’t put in as much time as them. That gives them a long term satisfaction and fulfillment that many, many games already out provide.
But GW2, as it was originally designed, was going to provide for and serve my long-term goals and satisfaction because I would be able to max out characters and explore and experience the game with them. I don’t require being “better” than other players, or having “better” stats than most everyone else; I just want to be able to – eventually – have equal stat characters, equal with anyone else no matter how much time they put in the game.
And that is why asking us to “just enjoy the parts of the game that are fun” misses the point; we could do that superficially in any game; it only lasts a short time (shorter and shorter the more time you’ve spent doing it) before the lack of long-term, in-game, ultimate goal satisfaction renders it hollow to the point of not being fun any more.
Should? There should be games where max gear is very difficult to obtain and which have an endless, ever-increasing power-creep for those that want to play such games.
There should also be games where max gear is relatively easy to get and there is no power creep for those that want to play such games.
One MMOG cannot serve both sets of customers. GW2 was supposed to serve the latter. There are literally scores of MMOGs that serve the former.
People are even asking about the refunds in mapchat now.. but I’m sure those not on the forum are enjoying themselves, right?
Yeah, I think a LOT of casuals probably just bought the game via word of mouth or an initial look over the company manifesto, and don’t really bother with visiting websites or forums. Finding out what Lost Shores/Ascended armor did to the game might take them some time. As we’ve seen on this thread, people are still coming in as first-time posters to find out what’s going on and finding out they just got backstabbed by ANET.
Even if they aren’t regular website visitors or forum-crawlers, they’re going to figure it out as time goes by.
People are whining because of their warped sense of entitlement. Anet has the right to change the game mechanics to their liking, and players have the right to stay or go. Like someone said above, if you don’t like the gear, don’t play the dungeon that requires it. Simple as that.
It’s the classic joke of an mmo. There was a huge outcry about no progression at endgame. Now that they added a bit of progression, there’s a huge outcry against changing the game mechanics.
You can’t please everyone, so its best to listen to the player base that matters the most. I think Anet can collect statistics on who plays regularly, what that player base wants far better than we can. And they adjust accordingly.
For some reason, people can’t come to terms with that. Remember the old axiom from Star Trek 2? The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few? It applies here.
Bottom line – people are upset whenever they feel their needs are not heard. Don’t worry about it, it will quiet down soon enough, and those people will sliver off to their holes, while the rest of us have fun.
It has nothing to do with a sense of “entitlement”. We paid for a game that was advertised, promoted, and “manifestoed” to be without a power-creep gear treadmill, and now that they have our money they’ve completely reversed the game philosophy.
If anyone had a sense of “entitlement”, it is those players that lobbied for ANET to change the core philosophy of the game against what has been stated for 5 years and which is already present in dozens of other MMOG titles currently on the market. To come into GW2 – which was supposed to be exactly “not” that kind of game – and beg and cajole the designers to change it to what every other game out there is, is entitlement beyond belief. Apparently, content locusts believe that every mmog should cater to their playstyle.
When I pay for something that is promised to be X, and sold and promoted to be X, and then is changed to “not-X”, it is not out of a sense of “entitlement” that I complain, but rather out of a fully justified sense of having been deceived by unethical people.
Well, then you obviously don’t understand how MMO development works. Its a living, breathing development cycle that never ends. And it may change from its core mechanic. And maybe, just maybe you will read the ToS next time and realize that content may change at any time.
You agreed to it, whether you like it or not. If you don’t think so, then have the guts to form a class action lawsuit, because that’s what you are suggesting.
Put your money where your mouth is and do something about it, if you are so unsatisfied. Take the ToS to a lawyer and ask what your rights are. Then post it here. Then we will have a real conversation. Until that time, you aren’t saying anything.
I know what I agreed to. That’s not the point; the point is that how I’m reacting is fully and reasonably justified. Just because something is written in the ToS doesn’t make what a developer does “right” or “ethical”. It just means they’ve covered their rears legally – nothing more. Just because what they did was legal doesn’t mean it was ethical, responsible, or sensible. It is not a sense of “entitlement” that leads reasonable person to expect a developer to adhere to a design philosophy after promoting it for 5 years. It’s a reasonable expectation – especially coupled with the fact that the company did just that very thing for 7 years with GW1.
Are you saying it is not my right to complain about such a turn of events? Are you saying that I shouldn’t voice my strenuous disagreement with this abandonment of core principles?
I live in America, and if I’m dissatisfied with my treatment at the hands of what I consider an unscrupulous business practice, I have the right to speak up, complain, and see if I can get them to make it right. I also have the right to go to amazon and write bad reviews, write critical blogs, make critical youtube videos, and do everything that is in my power legally to voice my displeasure at this.
People tend to exaggerate changes made to the game to ridiculous proportions. It happens all the time in MMOs. Once the herd find something new to complain and write rants about being betrayed, this issue will be long forgotten(Like the mad kings chests).
Yeah, like we’ve all “forgotten” about SWG-NGE, or the EVE Incarna expansion?
“CCP Admits Failure of Incarna Expansion, Will Focus on Core Gamers
When Incarna was originally envisioned, the developers at CCP saw it as a way to make the starting game experience more welcoming, allowing newcomers to create an avatar that could embody their character and only then introducing them to the nuances of space exploration and battle. But the established gamers who make up most of the EVE Online subscriber base saw this move as a betrayal of their trust and reacted badly to the changes made. CCP now says that it will not make the same mistake again and that it will always put the needs to long-term players before efforts to expand the appeal of the MMO.”
People are whining because of their warped sense of entitlement. Anet has the right to change the game mechanics to their liking, and players have the right to stay or go. Like someone said above, if you don’t like the gear, don’t play the dungeon that requires it. Simple as that.
It’s the classic joke of an mmo. There was a huge outcry about no progression at endgame. Now that they added a bit of progression, there’s a huge outcry against changing the game mechanics.
You can’t please everyone, so its best to listen to the player base that matters the most. I think Anet can collect statistics on who plays regularly, what that player base wants far better than we can. And they adjust accordingly.
For some reason, people can’t come to terms with that. Remember the old axiom from Star Trek 2? The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few? It applies here.
Bottom line – people are upset whenever they feel their needs are not heard. Don’t worry about it, it will quiet down soon enough, and those people will sliver off to their holes, while the rest of us have fun.
It has nothing to do with a sense of “entitlement”. We paid for a game that was advertised, promoted, and “manifestoed” to be without a power-creep gear treadmill, and now that they have our money they’ve completely reversed the game philosophy.
If anyone had a sense of “entitlement”, it is those players that lobbied for ANET to change the core philosophy of the game against what has been stated for 5 years and which is already present in dozens of other MMOG titles currently on the market. To come into GW2 – which was supposed to be exactly “not” that kind of game – and beg and cajole the designers to change it to what every other game out there is, is entitlement beyond belief. Apparently, content locusts believe that every mmog should cater to their playstyle.
When I pay for something that is promised to be X, and sold and promoted to be X, and then is changed to “not-X”, it is not out of a sense of “entitlement” that I complain, but rather out of a fully justified sense of having been deceived by unethical people.
Alliestiria said: “Even if this new Ascended armor stays and is implemented exactly as is currently planned (adding more and more armor pieces each patch) this HAS to be the last tier of gear.”
Not good enough. What are they going to do, promise it’s the last? Already been down ANET’s “promise” road. The only way to begin restoring trust is take them out or flatten their stats.
http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/11/19/flameseeker-chronicles-guild-wars-2s-lost-shores-recap/
Elisabeth Cardy just put up a “Lost Shores” recap article at massively. She doesn’t even mention the Ascended armor debacle, or this thread.
I mean … really? It’s not even worth mentioning?
I don’t get the relative lack of stories about this on the main sites. After all, reviewers from a LOT of game sites gave GW2 glowing reviews and a lot of free publicity, and they reported the now-abandoned anet design philosophy as being one of the better aspects of the game.
Why aren’t those reporters/reviewers not at least asking why ANET is not addressing the community here about this? Is there no MMOG site reporter that thinks it would be a good story to try and contact ANET and find out what the heck is going on?
A 10,000+ post thread up over a few days over a change in game direction is huge in terms of MMOG forums, and big news. You would think there would be some articles with some quotes from ANET and some people representing the disgruntled customer base on the subject by today.
What gives?
I made my first piece of ascended gear yesterday for my back slot. It was a a little more difficult than getting an exotic but definitely achievable and not gated behind some elitist barrier.
To give an idea on stats – my toughness from that slot (previous back was a rare) jumped from 28 to 34.
All said, nothing to get upset over. I agree I dont want a “treadmill,” but the slight bump gives people something to strive for without breaking the game.
Also – brilliant of them to only intro backs and rings for now with the promise of more to come. That way the “progression” of getting ascended is extended over a really long time, our current gear isnt invalidated and people interested in those things have something to look forward to.
I think if most people stop, take a deep breath, and think about it logically, they will see this not some horrible game breaking event – and that it may actually be a good thing.
Because a slow-cooked treadmill is better than a fast-cooking treadmill? It’s still a never-ending treadmill that will leave casual players farther and farther behind no matter how slow and gradual it is.
You either have to satisfy the content-locusts with progression that is significant over a period of time that will keep them interested the game, or they aren’t going to be a meaningful slice of your profitability. If that content provides significant-enough rewards for them, it necessarily means the casuals will be left farther and farther behind. If it is not significant enough for them to devour and stay in the game, then you’re not appealing to them AND you’ve alienated the casuals.
You cannot – repeat, cannot – serve the interests of both content-locust end game vertical progression grinders and casual players. It simply cannot be done. The two are mutually exclusive content and philosophy styles.
everyone reached max level and had literally nothing to do.
Wrong. I clocked somwhere like 400 hours into the game and I only have 1 lvl 80 who is not even geared in exotics, my other 7 characters are all below 50.
I still have plenty to do for months to come without ascended gear, and I wasn’t the only one in that situation.
HA! Exactly the same situation here. 440 hrs played, 1 level 80, not geared in exotics, 7 characters 50 or below. I have about 50% of the game’s official map explored, at best up to 200 in one crafting and below that in other crafting avenues. I had spent $120 in cash shop for characters/bank expansions.
For all of those that say we should stop “whining”:
Does it not concern you at all that in an unprecedented, 10,000+ forum complaint thread, there has not been a single ANET representative even attempting to interact with us? Not even attempting to clarify or explain or provide a clear statement about the future of the game in order to possibly retain some players, or at least give us the info we need to make sound decisions about whether or not to continue playing and supporting ANET via the cash shop?
I don’t care if you’re pro-Ascended, anti-Ascended, or just ambivalent about Ascended, the fact that ANET is simply stonewalling this 10,000 post thread should concern every reasonable, intelligent player.
Jornophelanthas said: “I am aware of the uproar, but that does not make you, or anyone else, its spokeperson, nor does it entitle anyone to issue petty and vindictive ultimatums. You weren’t even trying to be constructive, and although your choice of words may be civil, your demand for the public humiliation of an entire company is anything but.”
I never claimed to be any of those things. I was being constructive; a big dose of public humility is what is called for – it’s what saved CCP from going belly up, and whomever green-lighted this needs to be canned or at least reassigned in order for that part of the player base to be able to start the long road back to trust – IMO.
I know I avoided TSW because of Funcom’s “reputation” and I never even looked at Age of Conan.
What’s still confusing me is that GW2 reportedly exceeded all expectations. Where did this gear nonsense come from?
This update was obviously in the works before the game even launched. It didn’t matter how well launch went, or how much money the cash shop made. Unless you think a few weeks is enough time to create “The Lost Shores”? These things are planned and developed months in advance.
Here’s a pretty even-handed explanation of the issue: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNYvHHHnSt8
They added a single new tier, it’s still capped at a clearly visible ceiling just like it was before, just slightly higher than the previous one.
This made me laugh.
Glad to add some mirth to your day, but if you have any real proof of your claims that vertical progression will continually be added, then how about you show it? Otherwise, your case is baseless.
But as things are, there is a hard cap, and the jump from the second highest tier to the highest is now lower than it was. What you find humorous doesn’t matter next to those facts you seem intent to ignore in your blind accusations.
Your drama aside (I don’t recall acusing anyone of anything), I could just as easily say “can you provide proof that vertical progression will not be added?”
History in GW2 has one more level of vertical progression added (ascended). I think history is against your position so far.
Innocent until proven guilty, and you agreed with the OP, who made exactly that accusation.
One more tier of vertical progression was added — guilty.
Then we should all just stay at level 1 with no gear, because any progression at all is ANet breaking it’s word?
No. ANET’s policy was to offer a relatively easy 1-80 level progression and a vertical gear progression that was permanently capped at the Exotics. This way, people could enjoy vertical progression at a leisurely pace because they knew that eventually they would end up with the highest stats possible, and not face an ever-increasing slide down the power curve because of their more casual (meaning, not focused on acquiring “the best” stat-wise) playstyle.
This is the same policy they had in GW1, and what was promised in GW2 – a relatively easy vertical progression to a hard cap that remained permanently in place for the life of the game, and the only “progression” involved was horizontal towards different skins that had the same stats.
Paying (about) $55 for a game does not buy ownership of the game company, and does not entitle one to make game design or business decisions. Least of all, it does not entitle one to take away somebody’s livelihood.
One forum post is not negative publicity.
Opinion is not fact.
Not even mine.
Perhaps you’re unware of the 10,000 + post thread here? This is not “one post in a forum”.
BTW, purchasing the game and buying $120 worth of gems based on their stated commitment to uphold a fundamental design philosophy gives me the right to state my displeasure and offer up a means of correcting what I see as a huge mistake.
Manifesto : “A public declaration of aims…”
Lie: “To lie is to deliver a false statement to another person which the speaking person knows is not the whole truth, intentionally.”
An aim is a target, a goal, not a fact.
The arena net manifesto was delivered in 2011. There is nothing to suggest that Ascended items where in development at this point, so it cannot be a false statement delivered unintentionally.
Arena Net by those definitions didn’t lie to anybody.
They did however pull an about turn on some of the design decisions for the game. Something of this magnitude is not the work of an individual or group of individuals, it would have been a company decision.
Suggesting that somebody should be fired for it is beyond rude and ridiculous. This isn’t the BBC or a bank, we don’t need a scapegoat.
A clear and concise deceleration of intent in regards to the games development would be nice, but they are by no means obliged to tell you what they are planning.
Colin Johanson reiterated the vision statement in September of this year. Content of this magnitude doesn’t get created in a couple of months. Either Johanson didn’t know what the live team was planning, or he is guilty of deliberately misleading hundreds of thousands of customers while GW2 was launching.
@Ckeeton There is negative publicity outside of this forum. I will not relink the articles because they are in other posts. Sites are calling Arenanet out on its reversal of its core design.
OP I agree with everything except the termination part. Sometimes people are directed to do things even if they do not agree. They should not be punished for following a management directive. Now if the top executives who have been with the company for years authorized this, then removal might be an option. However, again, I would respect them more if they simply made the other changes you listed and issued an apology.
Sadly, this is not going to happen. Because they will take a “wait and see” approach. If cash shop sales severely drop off, then they will make a change. It just may not be the changes you listed. It all depends on who is pushing this within their organization. Some leaders make decisions simply based on ego. Even if stats say their decision was wrong, ego will tell them not to change it.
I’m not calling for every dev that had a hand in programming this to be terminated or reassigned, only those that initiated this drastic change and were responsible for green-lighting it.
No sarcasm at all, just want to know if he still has the power to take decisions since the more comes out from this patch, the more I find GW2 far away from what has been told in theese 5 years of developement and from what the game was before this patch.
Also since he put his face in the manifesto (and blogs and etc…) I find it odd that he doesn’t comment the situation in any way.
Sincerely
Shaula/Raksha or simply Gloria
That’s what I’ve wondered. Doesn’t he care that his reputation is being destroyed here?
My question is this: if one is going to quit and get a refund, won’t their account here be terminated and they no longer be able to express their dissatisfaction on the official forums?
This account got a refund and I can still log in and post.
Deactivated accounts can be used on the forums to ask for support obviously.
Unless they’ll change that now.
Good to know!
Another person who doesn’t understand business. Amd terminate someone because you disagree with a added gear tier and new dungeon ? Do you know how silly that sounds ? Might want to build a bridge and get over it .
I understand business; if this negative publicity hurts them enough, and if the loss of cash shop sales hurts them enough, they’ll have to address it. That’s “business”. I’m outlining a means by which they can address it – successfully, and perhaps turn this entire debacle into something positive for the company.
My question is this: if one is going to quit and get a refund, won’t their account here be terminated and they no longer be able to express their dissatisfaction on the official forums?
I realize broken trust is a very difficult thing to fix, but it can be done. CCP has managed it. ANET can do it. And, let’s face it: most of us would prefer to continue playing GW2 if at all possible, and would prefer to be able to eventually trust ANET again, if we have a means of being involved and keeping an eye on ANET in the future so that they do not spring this kind of game-breaking change on us in the future.
(1) I suggest that first, ANET must make Ascended gear equivalent in stats to Exotics, make exotics upgradeable to bear the additional Agony infusion, and make infusions only add an agony statistic. Infusions must be available to be acquired game-wide (WvW, crafting, events, etc.) This will make “agony” a completely horizontal mechanic. IOW, Ascended gear will be nothing more than a cosmetic item you can only acquire in the Fractals, and “agony stats” something only necessary to – eventually – get a full set of Ascended gear.
This will allow players with exotics to equally participate fully in Fractals by additionally infusing their exotics with agony stats, or allow players to gradually move through Fractals without getting exotics by getting their Ascended gear piecemeal as they go. Exotics and Ascended will then be equivalent stat armors that can be achieved via different means.
This must be done first as a sign of good faith.
(2) ANET must set up a player advocate system where they communicate their developmental intentions as they progress and where they get input from the player base (like CCP has). This must be accompanied by a log-in polling system, the wording of which must be approved by the player advocates. They must agree to be fully transparent and co-operative with the fan base via this advocate system.
(3) ANET must issue an apology for this debacle and affirm its intent to stay true to the manifesto and original game design in the future and never let this happen again.
(4) ANET must terminate or reassign those who initiated this violation of the manifesto and 5 years of media and 7 years of good faith earned by GW1 and install (or reinstall) personnel who are committed to the original design philosophy.
Welcome to the skinner box that is vertical gear progression. It trains you to do things you don’t want to do by generating a need for the rush of getting a treat at the end. In common terms, we call that “addiction”, because even though you don’t really “need” it, your brain treats it as a “need” and you find yourself pursuing the treat to the detriment of all other considerations.
(edited by Wintyre Fraust.6534)
Hey, I’ve got the top three blogs at http://www.MMORPG.com right now, and theyr’e all about this (yes, I’m Meleagar):
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/Meleagar/072009/24187_Sadly-ANET-Blows-It
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/Meleagar/072009/24212_The-GW2-Debacle-More-Than-A-Matter-of-Lost-Trust
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/Meleagar/072009/24188_ANET-Is-Lying-To-Us
Please go in and upvote them. Feel free to cross post them at other sites. Maybe we can turn up the heat enough to get something done about this.
If ANET had any decency, they’d have conducted a log-in poll shortly after this Ascended scandal began. Unfortunately, if they conducted one now, they will be missing quite a number of people that have quit and already uninstalled the game.
But the lack of any serious attempt to get reliable, statistically significant customer input on the matter shows that the industry hasn’t learned anything from the SWG-NGE fiasco or the CCP fiasco that almost took EVE down.
“The Manifesto is not a binding contract” = last refuge of an ANET apologist.
Eveningstar said: “What I am saying is that their manifesto was probably unrealistic considering how they designed their game. Their Manifesto describes a game that isn’t an MMO. They made an MMO.”
No, the manifesto describes a philosophy that breaks the current, standard mold of how MMOGs have been designed – that was the whole point of GW2, and up until release – yes, all the way up until release – they were reiterating that philosophy in all their media. They had developed an enormous, avid – even rabid – fan base and glowing reviews throughout the MMORG industry based upon that philosophy.
Because of the philosophy promoted and hammered and reiterated, they had a very successful pre-purchase system and launch.
The problem is that this huge update/free expansion must have been in the works since before launch, or at least immediately after, because it’s only been about 10 weeks. They never even gave their original model a chance to work beyond the launch.
IMO, the original development team must have been dismissed sometime prior to launch and a new live team put in, and they simply abandoned the original premise of the game. Either that or it’s all been a con job from day one.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/13ccl4/mystic_forged_a_quiver/
Just 1 day, someone already has a pink(red) backslot equipment.
Hopefully Anet has good schedule and does not underestimate the ability that how fast players can get upgraded-stat asc gears. ’Cause soon, those who had nothing to do will have 2 asc rings and asc back.
Well, I admit I’m wondering when you will break your promise again — to announce T2 ascended items.
Once again proving that the “Content Locusts” will devour any content placed in front of them faster than the developers could ever hope to predict.
So, Chris Whiteside was telling the truth. They have no plans to trot out new treadmill gear every three months, because they don’t know now fast the locusts can consume the content. Every couple of weeks should do it.
kagrangeify said: “I just think the general outpouring of unbelievably high strength vitriol dwarfs the issues themselves, by an absolute country mile.”
Not when you love playing MMOGs, but have been sick to death of the end-game gear-treadmill power-creep skinner box design that literally hundreds of current MMOGs employ …. and have been not playing MMOGs for several years because of it, or have been enduring playing in such MMOGs until something different comes out … and then a company that has a 7 year track record of a game (GW) of defying those conformist MMOG mechanisms promises, advertises, and goes with a full-blown media campaign that GW2 is going to be just such a game … and you pre-purchase the game and play in betas and – unbelievably – realize that they really are delivering what they said. So you get your friends – who are all burned out on the gear-grind end-game treadmill games that offer more casual gamers (meaning, cannot or will not gear-grind endlessly) nothing but a long slide down the power-curve into increasing irrelevancy and scrub-ness – excited about a game that is going to be different, that is actually going to be structured in a way that you and your friends can max out characters, be on an equal footing with everyone else, where only skill really matters. Then the game goes live and holy MMOG, Batman it really is what they claimed! It delivered! You and your friends spend hundreds of dolllars in the cash shop for not much reason other than to just support ANET and make sure they don’t have any difficult financial decisions to make, make sure they realize their work is loved and appreciated!
Then, without warning, without even trying to make the original model work, without any discussion with their fan base, in the very first real content update that was obviously planned and well into coding since before launch, even after a very successful launch and having to add servers and capacity since launch, this company threw 7 years of credibility and trust out the window and gave all of us avid, adoring fans the finger and refuse to even face us now.
It’s not that it’s just a video game, or that it’s just a few items of gear or some stats: does nobody care about principles and ethics anymore? Everyone should be condemning ANET for this betrayal in the strongest terms, even those that wanted gear progression, even those that this change doesn’t even affect, even those that play WoW or don’t even play MMOGs, because this kind of behavior is just flat out unacceptable.
If next week they change all the graphics to pink kittens and lollipop weapons, is that okay? If after people grind all their top ascended gear ANET puts the exact same set of armor in the cash shop for $20, is that okay? After all, it’s just a game, right?
lagrangeify said: “I admit it, I just don’t get it.”
Do you “get it” now?
I just did three of these dungeons. didn’t finish one. I hate this garbage. Hate it with a passion. I can’t believe I am being forced to do this stuff that I loathe just to be competitive in wvwvw.
Please tell us when this will be available in wvwvw? If I have to do another dungeon I will shoot myself, seriously.
It will be available in WvW, through crafting, etc. after they release the next batch of gear upgrades in the agony dungeon(s), probably about the time that the content-locusts are mostly done consuming this batch.
You know, sort of like how, in WoW, after the elites have grinded the new best armor and have had some time to strut around in it, they release the next, new “best” armor and the last best “new” armor is available in other ways, and then when the next best new armor comes out the first best new armor becomes trash mob drops in the new content areas. I’m sure we all remember how this works.
Does Colin still work for ANET? Does he realize his reputation is being ruined? Does he have a facebook or twitter account? Someone needs to tell him that his word is fast becoming worthless. Seriously, if it were me, and some corporate suits were behind this that I had no control over, I’d bail as a matter of principle.
Colin Johanson, June 19, 2012:
“Now let me pose a second question: If the success of a subscription-based MMO is measured by the number of people paying a monthly fee, how does that impact game design decisions?
“The answer can be found in the mechanics and choices made in subscription-based MMOs, which keep customers actively playing by chasing something in the game through processes that take as long as possible. In other words, designers of traditional MMOs create content systems that take more time to keep people playing longer. If this is your business motivation and model so you keep getting paid, it makes sense and is an incredibly smart thing to do, and you need to support it.
“When your game systems are designed to achieve the prime motivation of a subscription-based MMO, you run the risk of sacrificing quality to get as much content in as possible to fill that time. You get leveling systems that take insane amounts of grind to gain a level, loot drop systems that require doing a dungeon with a tiny chance the item you want can drop at the end, raid systems that need huge numbers of people online simultaneously to organize and play, thousands of wash/repeat item-collection or kill-mob quests or dailies with flavor text support, the best stat gear requiring crazy amounts of time to earn, etc.
“But what if your business model isn’t based on a subscription? What if your content-design motivations aren’t driven by the need to create mechanics that keep people playing as long as possible? When looking at content design for Guild Wars 2, we’ve tried to ask the question: What if the development of the game was based on…wait for it…fun?”
“If we chose fun as our main metric for tracking success, can we flip the core paradigm and make design decisions based on what we’d like to play as game players? Can we focus our time on making meaningful and impactful content, rather than filler content meant to draw out the experience? Can we make something so much fun you might want to play it multiple times because it’s fun, rather than making you do it because the game says you have to? It’s how we played games while growing up. I can’t tell you how many times I played Quest for Glory; the game didn’t give me 25 daily quests I needed to log in and do—I played it multiple times because it was fun!”
(edited by Wintyre Fraust.6534)
Well, if nothing else, it’s somewhat comforting to know that there are so many other players that actually want the same kind of game I’ve been wanting and blogging about for years, which GW2 pretty much delivered for 10 weeks. Maybe some day.
The problem is, this isn’t just a betrayal of trust and a black mark for Anet – it really poisons the well for any future developer trying to create an unconventional MMOG without vertical progression or a standard end-game.
I go into more depth here at my blog on MMORPG.com.
The only “feedback” that really hits home and that ArenaNet will listen to is what you DO, not anything you can say. If enough players stop playing, they may change their mind. Maybe the best thing we could do is organize a protest… spend this weekend in the center of Divinity’s Reach instead of taking part in the event… that sort of thing. If enough people are truly willing to stop playing this game due to the change, they will have to listen. If you feel strongly about this, actions speak louder than words.
Actually, they’ve made it really easy to stop playing, because I think for most of us who bought this game because of the lack of gear treadmill, we just don’t care to log in anymore. I haven’t logged in since I heard of this a couple of days ago.
In fact, I WISH I could log in and enjoy my beloved characters and that beautiful scenery and that fun combat system. I really wish I could. After all, it’s not like I have to spend any more money on what I’ve already invested so much time in.
But the thought of logging into the game and giving ANET any semblance of support just by being there makes me sick, which is pretty much how I got with WoW at the end.
I see another potential problem here. If this turns out to be very bad, how can you trust any MMO company from now on?
Especially since ANET had a 7 year track record in GW1 of keeping the very same promises they made for GW2. If you can’t trust ANET, who can you trust?
They’ve just made it very, very hard for any future non-progression, alternate-mechanics MMO to succeed.
…GW2 lasts a few years, do you honestly believe that there will be no increase in characters maximum level cap or new higher gear grades will not be introduced?
Not anymore.
It is the normal path of all MMO’s and mainly because the player base demands it to keep the interest.
That was the whole original selling point of GW2; it wasn’t going to follow the "normal path of all other MMO’s. That’s why I – and many others – bought it in the first place. That’s why I wasn’t playing “other” MMO’s, and why I will not be playing GW2 any more.
So why, why, why does infusion-gear has to be better than exotic gear?.
To provide vertical gear progression to the WoW locusts.
Oh my, did you guys see that post “All progression is important to us, we want to make sure our rewards and progression systems hit a spectrum of players and makes everyone feel excited to play the game.” when asked if they cared about vertical progression.
G
GYeap another non answer its all double talk and PR speak now
That’s not a non-answer, it’s just an answer you didn’t want to hear.
IsaiahCartwright said 10 minutes ago at the Reddit Q & A:
“I can see your concern, our goal with ascended items is to fill the gap in our progression between exotics and legendary as well as give us a new tool with the infusion slot to give more depth of rewards by offering new and interesting infusions that are directed at different game types. "
There was no “gap in progression” between legendary and exotics, so he’s just spinning a blatant falsehood. And for everyone who insisted this was going to end with agony infusions, you’ve just been enlightened. There will be more, different infusions in the future directed at “different game types” .
The gear grind treadmill has officially come to GW2.
To register my displeasure, I won’t be logging in for the Lost Shores event. Anyone else?
Speculation at best
No, unfortunately it’s a fairly sound conclusion based on the evidence available, and supported by what Mr. Whiteside and Ms. Murdock said in their posts.
Please note how Ms. Murdock uses the terms “end game” and “high-end players”; her use of those terms contradict the “the whole game is the end game” philosophy of the original development manifesto:
“The first end game mechanic we will introduce is Agony, which will be encountered in the Fractals of the Mists dungeon, and is mitigated by Infusions.”
and:
“As we release more new end game content in the future, you’ll see more Infusions and Ascended item types being added to the game. Eventually, you’ll be able to kit yourself out with a full set of Ascended gear and high end Infusions to help give you the edge in end game content.”
Next, look at this comment by Ms. Murdock:
“Our desire is to create a game that is more inclusive for hardcore and casual players alike, but we don’t want to overlook the basic need for players to feel like they are progressing and growing even after hitting max level.”
The original development team didn’t consider eternal progression a “a basic need” for players, which is why there was no stat difference between between exotics and legendaries, and why they were adamant about capping stats at a fairly easy-to-get level. They used cosmetic differences to satisfy the need for a sense of achievement and not progression.
Now, let’s look at what Mr. Whiteside said:
“Our goal is to ensure we have a proper progression for players from Exotic up to Legendary without a massive jump in reward between the two. "
There is no “massive jump in reward” between exotic and legendary; they have the same stats. What “progression” is he talking about? In the original philosophy, there was no “progression” from exotic to Legendary. This only makes sense if they have changed the philosophy from “cosmetic variance” for the sake of a sense of achievement to stat differences for the sake of progression.
Many people here are trying to interpret what they have said in terms of them being true to the original vision, and trying to interpret the increase of Ascended stats over Exotic as a “mistake” that can be corrected. However, they are not making semantic errors here. They are not simply mis-phrasing what they are saying.
The manifesto philosophy has been ditched. The “item progression initiative” is not something intended to somehow “fit in” with the original vision. The “end game” is no longer seen as “the whole game”. When Mr. Whiteside says they are not going to pump in new gear with higher stats “every three months” , he means what he says – they’re not going to do it “every three months”. If he had meant this is a one-time correction, he would have said “there will be no future items pumped in with higher stats”.
It is what it is, and it has been stated about as clearly as they can while still trying to spin it enough so that customers or fans who simply want to refuse to believe ANET did this can remain in denial.
And, the evidence points to this being a decision made in spite of a highly successful launch and at least decently-populated servers, not because of some dramatic failure or unforseen calamity.