Guild Wars 2

VOLKON.1290:

They could have chose something different. They didn’t. They added one more level to get horizontal from. No one denies this one last tier is vertical. Expanding in the future within this tier, as they’ve stated, is horizontal. New tiers with more power… should that happen they’ll likely lose me as well. (I’ll still play, but be grumpy.)

I hope you are right. But let’s look at the reality.

Arenanet said they made this change to appeal to “dedicated players.” Its actually people who need a carrot to be convinced that their character is progressing. Once those people consume the carrot, how will they keep getting that feeling?

If those “dedicated players” did not like the idea of horizontal progression now (cosmetic differences only in max stat gear), why would they like it in the future?

To keep appealing to those “dedicated players,” Arenanet will have to continue to offer new gear stat tiers (new carrots for consumption). If they don’t, those people will stop playing, right. Isn’t that the Arenanet fear today and cause for this redesign of their game?

The above is the definition of gear treadmill. If at some point, Arenanet stops the treadmill, the very people they did this for will stop playing the game. Which path do you think Arenanet will go down now?

StormGryffen.7638:

A lack of endgame content was what killed SWtoR, for the most part.

Yes it did. But SWTOR never said that their end game was throughout the entire game and completely different from traditional MMOs. Arenanet did.

You may like the introduction of vertical progression. Some do. Some don’t. But can someone at least acknowledge that Arenanet has changed its design approach that it has had in place and talked about for years. Can Mike O’Brien, President, or Colin Johanson, Lead Content Designer, explain this change in direction and how it maintains their “uniqueness” in the MMOrpg marketplace.

My original question was “how does changing to vertical progression make GW2 a unique, different MMO.” Horizontal progression did because its competitors did not offer it. It appealed to a niche market that disliked forced gear treadmills and grind.

The game appears to have lost track of its product design direction. If so, that is even worse than just introducing “new gear with slightly better stats and more to come.”

GW2 cannot compete with WOW and its WOW clones on the same playing field. Arenanet knew this and created 2 games with successful box sales to appeal to a niche, an anti-WOW if you will. It cannot begin offering the same things as those and expect long-term customer loyalty. SWTOR tried and failed miserably.

Source:
Arenanet article https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-endgame-reimagined/
“Guild Wars 2>News>The Endgame Reimagined
The Endgame Reimagined
by Mike Zadorojny on September 13, 2012”

In the past, we’ve talked about how in Guild Wars 2 we designed the game to avoid a common problem in many MMOs: grinding through chunks of boring, repetitive content to get to the occasional pockets of fun. With Guild Wars 2, we wanted the entire gameplay experience to be something that players enjoyed, regardless of how much time they could dedicate.

When we looked at the concept of “endgame” for Guild Wars 2, we designed it the same way. We didn’t want the endgame to be something you could only experience after a hundred hours of gameplay or after you reached some arbitrary number. We wanted it to be something that players got to experience every step along the way, spread out across the entire world of Tyria, so we’ve introduced game elements that you’d normally associate with “endgame” at every level and every possible opportunity."

Source:

“Here’s what we believe: If someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can’t realistically acquire it, that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game. Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games — we leave the grind to other MMOs.”
-Mike Obrien, President of Arenanet

Fun impacts loot collection. The rarest items in the game are not more powerful than other items, so you don’t need them to be the best. The rarest items have unique looks to help your character feel that sense of accomplishment, but it’s not required to play the game. We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional, so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who don’t are just as powerful and get to have fun too.”
– Colin Johanson

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

dalendria.3762:

Other gaming companies that introduced a new feature that the core customer base hated did rollback. EVE Online, LOTRO.

Unfortunately, Sony did not when they introduced NGE into Star Wars Galaxies. The president later admitted that it was a bad change and hurt the game/their financial model. But it was too late and the game was officially closed down last year.

Yeah, thing is, I really don’t see a rollback helping in this case. I really do expect it won’t do anything to score them any points and will only make more people upset. It might remove the thing that everyone was complaining about, but it runs the very significant risk of alienating the people who made progress during the time between the time of rollback and the time it’s rolled back to.

And if they do a rollback, it tells the people here that if they complain long and loud enough about something they can force the devs to cave in. Whether or not it is the right thing to do in this particular case . . . it sets a bad precedent later on.

Understand and even agree with you. It is one of the reasons that companies with sound marketing strategies do not radically change the core features of their product.

So if a rollback is not an option, how do they fix this mess?

People who bought and loved the game because it did not have “gear stat progression” are starting to leave, begun getting refunds or have stopped using the cash shop. People who wanted it have it but how long will they play and will they make cash shop purchases. And dissatisfied customers are posting negative feedback about this on retail sites – potential customers may be discouraged from buying the game.

I appreciate everyone’s feedback but please stay on topic. They have already locked one of my other posts. Do not want to give them a reason to lock this one.

I would really like someone to explain if they believe adding “gear stat progression” makes GW2 distinct now, a different MMO. And if you feel it does not, why not.

Astraea.6075:

“Our goal is to ensure we have a proper progression for players from exotic up to legendary without a massive jump in reward between the two. " – Prior to this patch, exotics were easy to obtain

Some Exotics were easy to obtain. If you wanted the better looking Exotics, it required more work and time.

Maybe some people did not realize there were different type of Exotics.

They said Exotics were the max stat gear. They differentiated the Exotics based on cosmetics. This approach aligned with their horizontal progression approach used in the pre-patch GW2 and GW1.

There was no huge effort gap between Exotics and Legendaries. If you wanted the better looking version of an Exotic, it took more effort and/or required more resources (gold, mats, etc.)

Huge thread was locked but here is the link if you want to review the feedback:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Thoughts-on-Ascended-Gear-Merged-threads

They will eventually respond but it may be too late for customers that hate the product change. At this point, it has reached sites outside of the forum. The word is spreading about the change in direction.

That is really the issue here. Not “an introduction of gear with slightly better stats.” Customers, bloggers and now reporters are questioning them on the reason they did a 180 degree change in their design approach. That is bigger than introducing some new content with a different flavor. It raises questions about the company itself.

Found an interesting article with quotes from the Arenanet Global Director

http://game-guide-review.blogspot.com/2012/05/arenanet-director-tells-why-guild-wars.html

He emphasizes that GW2 is trying to introduce a different MMO, one that does not copy WOW foundational design. Is the change to “gear stat progression” making GW2 different from traditional MMOs?

Horizontal progression is an alternative to the WOW model. Why abandon it?

“Why these games have failed in their mission? Even Star Wars: The Old Republic, with all the machinery of Electronic Arts behind him and that $ 200 million development cost has been losing subscribers.

As most experts agree is that these games, despite obvious differences, follow the same formula as WoW established there in 2004 (although it is not by far the inventor of these mechanics) so it’s hard to excel in a genre where the pattern appears and is checked.

That’s why Christopher Lye, ArenaNet’s global director thinks the only way to be a real alternative is to break some paradigms, take risks and try something truly different, and this is what it purports to Guild Wars 2."

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

1 – If they change it back, they will be seen by yet more people as “not having the integrity to stick to what they wanted to do”. They’re in a “darned if you do/don’t” position right now. They keep it as is? People keep saying it’s clear they don’t care about what we think. They change it back? People use it as evidence they can’t make up their mind.

Other gaming companies that introduced a new feature that the core customer base hated did rollback. EVE Online, LOTRO.

Unfortunately, Sony did not when they introduced NGE into Star Wars Galaxies. The president later admitted that it was a bad change and hurt the game/their financial model. But it was too late and the game was officially closed down last year.

People who challenge whether or not the original GW was a MMO are not addressing the facts.

Arenanet, not us, said the GW2 would not have “gear stat progression (vertical progression feature).” They said it for years, did interviews, created videos, etc. explaining the reasons. They said it during the betas. Then after launching the product, they said it again and stated that Exotics would be the max stat gear. They also explained that there would different types of Exotics that could be obtained based on varying degrees of time – easy to get to harder. The only difference would be cosmetics (horizontal progression feature).

I wonder if people even know about the harder Exotics. These items exist and were the real step between “easy to obtain” Exotics and Legendaries.

So the game was sold with the “no gear stat progression” product feature. Many people bought the game because they wanted that feature. Now just 3 months later, they radically alter their product by introducing that feature with a promise that more vertical progression is to come.

Just one of many quotes from a disappointed buyer on a retail site:

“I saw this video called Guild Wars 2 Manifesto (on their main website, great video btw) and wanted very much to try it out. If you have seen the video and want the game because of it, do not buy it. Last weekend, they officially took back everything they said in the video. There was a lot of drama on the forums, with one thread over 11,000 posts long before it got closed. I will not go into detail about the changes, but basically, if you are currently playing another MMO and want to switch to another that is skill based and casual-friendly, this is not the game for you.”

Taken from Arenanet’s “The Endgame Reimagined” article on this site. Dated 9/13/12

“When we looked at the concept of “endgame” for Guild Wars 2, we designed it the same way. We didn’t want the endgame to be something you could only experience after a hundred hours of gameplay or after you reached some arbitrary number. We wanted it to be something that players got to experience every step along the way, spread out across the entire world of Tyria, so we’ve introduced game elements that you’d normally associate with “endgame” at every level and every possible opportunity….

Sure, once your character reaches max level, we’ve created new and interesting ways to challenge you as a player, but we didn’t want to force you to master an entirely new subset of the game."

The introduction of a new gear tier with an infusion item that has stats and agony is “an entirely new subset of the game.” It goes against their original product design that was available at launch.

DegoLocc.5976:

Funny, I dislike when casual players come and try to make my favorite genre something it isn’t or wasn’t never meant to ever be.

“Your favorite genre” “Casuals come”

We bought a product that the seller said would not have “gear stat progression.” We did not buy it then make them change it. However, the people who like “vertical gear progression” did. People like you knew that this was not in the game. Then you complained after playing supposedly all the content and stated that “its boring now that I am lvl 80. it needs vertical progression.”

This may be your favorite genre but you do not own it. If a company wants to do something different, they have that right. If they make money off of it good. Arenanet said that their box sales exceeded projections. Since this is not a sub-based game, box sales is a key financial indicator.

The only other revenue stream for them right now is cash shop sales. Are you planning to keep this game afloat with cash shop purchases?

Me, yes I did and yes I was planning to spend more. Others that liked horizontal progression had done the same. I wanted Arenanet to know that I liked what they had to offer and their decision to offer something new in the MMORPG genre.

StormGryffen.7638:

You know, having such an anger-attack over gear that is only slightly better than what’s already out makes little sense. The game already has a gear treadmill, now it just also has an endgame.

The most confusing part of all of this complaining has been the idea that if you don’t get to have exactly what you want, you’re going to go onto review sites and try to ruin the game so that no one else has any fun either. You complain about the psychology of selfishness that gear gating represents, but then you choose to break away from the community you purport to defend and try and ruin it for everyone.

I don’t know what’s more difficult to understand – behaving this way over a few optional added features that are a miniscule difference in comparison to what’s already in the game, or making threads about how you’re going to “review bomb” the game and assuming no one’s going to point out to these sites that this is going on.

I don’t plan to post on retailer sites because I bought directly from Arenanet. Reason I am posting my displeasure here.

However, I think it is good that people are telling other customers about the change. There is so much pre-patch marketing out there about “no gear stat progression.” Potential customers need to know that they have abandoned that. If they still want to buy it, then good. If not, then good. It saves people from buying a game and finding out it is not what they thought.

On the otherhand, I bought this game and for the most part, it was what I thought it would be until 11/16. Now, they have shown me that I am not a “dedicated player,” a valued customer. The product has changed and no longer supports the approach I like. But they got my box sales and gem shop money.

How would you feel if the product you love is radically changed after purchase?

Derk.3189:

interesting topic on the WoW forums:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7004697373?page=1

Seems like that whole ‘bridging the gap’ bs got to some people there. I suggest posting in that topic to tell the people the truth about ascended gear. You can use your battlenet account, you don’t need to have purchased wow in order to post there.

Just read some of the comments. This is even more sad. Now WOW players are making fun of Arenanet for changing its design philosophy.

I think some people do not understand how strongly Arenanet’s leadership have stated their position against “gear stat progression.” I will not post it here but Mike O’Brien, Arena President, has made some strong statements just barely stopping short of saying MMOs with gear stat progression are not fun, are grindy and not doing it right.

Now he and the others who took that position look well…….. {fill in the blank} cause I do not want another infraction.

I feel really bad this has happened. I really loved this game and its original design. I was looking forward to seeing all the ways they were going to expand on the horizontal progression approach. Now this game is going down a “laughing stock” path.

Revolution has turned into Devolution.

Arenanet marketed this game as one that would not have “gear stat progression.” It had horizontal progression.

They planned to make it an ever changing game by introducing better gear (no new stats just better looks), new content areas, more dynamic and group events, more skill-based character progression, etc. Not the lateness and greatness new gear with more stats. The president of Arenanet stated for years that he wanted a game based on fun and gear distinction based on looks only. He has also stated that he hates the “gear progression” approach. He is a former Blizzard employee that was a part of the team that made WOW classic.

They have changed their core product design after 3 months and $2 million in sales. I know that I bought the game because they said “no stat gear progression.” Many others bought the game for the same reason.

Why did you buy this game? Why do you believe it is okay for you to want a company to change its core product design?

Would you be happy if a traditional MMO like WOW eliminated raids because some people hate them?

Op though you and I agree on this point, I was surprised that the gear stat progression does not appeal to you.

On paper you seemed to be the type of person that they are now trying to target.

1. Never played GW1 (so you would not have experienced horizontal progression).
2. Lvl 80
3. Only one character.

If you liked the fact there was no gear stat progression, why did you keep playing?

Arenanet seems to think that they had to do this for people who reached lvl 80 and really needed character progression based on gear tiers.

And I am not saying it is right. I remember people trashing ME3 with 0 ratings on metacritic before it even came out.

I am trying to point out what I tried to warn anyone at Arenanet who would listen about. This fiasco is not going to go away and will spread. The low ratings people now posting on Amazon because of the design change is just the start.

I will not post other links but some of the gaming sites are starting to call them out on their product change.

People do search for user feedback before product purchases. If they really wanted the GW2 game with no gear stat progression, at least now they will get the facts – That has been added, the original design vision is dead.

+1

This is what they said they would do. Make games fun to keep people playing. I would assume they also had cash shop figures from GW1. So they had to have known that people enjoying themselves will spend money. And to your point about gear grind. GW1 had max stat gear. If you did grind, it was only for the better looking stuff with same stats. Until the 11/15 patch, they had the similar approach.

So now, I still would like someone to provide me with proof that people who prefer gear stat progression spend more money in cash shops than people who like horizontal progression and playing just for the fun of it.

And the point I was trying to make is that people have put the word out about the design change on retail sites. So for those that may not know but want a game without “gear stat progression,” they are now forewarned that Arenanet has changed the product.

Some people may be reading all the pre and post launch marketing materials and think the game still does not have “gear progression.”

critickitten.1498:

….exaggerating much? The Amazon rating is still pretty good despite the pathetic attempts to review-bomb it. You made it sound like the game suddenly had a 1.0 Metacritic or something, but it’s actually just 30-40 people review-bombing it on Amazon. That’s….really not that big a deal.

And frankly, basing your purchases on user reviews these days is a questionable decision, since most people are very bad at giving even remotely objective reviews of anything.

I never said it had a 1 rating. I said the recent reviews from people are 1 rating because they do not like the change in design.

The person that said this is perfect time is right (or not so perfect if you are the company reps). In the US, this is the start of the heavy retail season. People do read customer reviews. Maybe you do not but others do. If they had not made this drastic change, those recent users would not have posted the low and negative comments.

Here is a link to the GW2 Amazon.com page.

http://www.amazon.com/Guild-Wars-2-Pc/product-reviews/B001TOQ8X4/ref=cm_cr_dp_see_all_btm?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending

Many people have posted recently and rated the product low due the change in design philosophy.

Some people use the customer reviews to make purchase decisions.

Is this really what they wanted for this fun game? Why completely undermine your stated and delivered design approach?

This says it all:

One of several increasing 1 rating product feedback.

6 of 12 people found the following review helpful
1.0 out of 5 stars Not what was promised., November 19, 2012
By
Patricia M. Jackson – See all my reviews
= Fun:1.0 out of 5 stars
This review is from: Guild Wars 2 (Video Game)
Arenanet, the company behind this game, made ambitious promises that they were going to deliver a non-gear-centric, grind-free game that would be about horizontal progression and aesthetics. And that’s how it was…for three short months. Now, even after such a short time, they’ve apparently felt it necessary to start introducing new tiers of gear to chase after, and they’ve already stated that more are coming. I’m sorry to say it, but it has become just another failed me-too MMO cash grab. Spend your hard-earned money on something else.

They finally locked the huge thread.

But that will not stop the discussion here or now on other sites. They really do need to come out with a statement soon. A statement from the Arenanet President or Lead Content Designer would be preferred.

Well the Ascended Gear post was finally locked. over 11,000 posts and 222 pages.

I guess they thought it was enough. The funny thing is that the size of the thread now has the attention of the media. More and more sites are finally talking about this change.

The debate about it will continue even if this forum no longer supports it.

And for those that hate the change, the negativity will spread especially to sites people use to make gaming purchase decisions. Already happening but not on a large scale yet.

Arenanet should consider doing something to diminish the growing frustration over this. Silence is a PR tactic but in the Internet age, not a good one. People can express their opinions and find others opinions with just a few clicks. Internet content including forum posts is searchable and can be found even when the original server removes the content.

So the huge thread on Ascendant Gear was finally locked. Here is the link to the thread
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Thoughts-on-Ascended-Gear-Merged-threads/page/243#post817328

Would be interested in your opinion on 3 things in this latest content patch?

1. Lost Shores area – Quality of content, Quality of gameplay, Interest level in playing it.
2. Fractals dungeon – Same as above
3. Ascendant gear – Need for it, Your desire to get it, Your opinion about its introduction

Eveningstar.6940:

For my own curiosity, could you explain what you mean by Bioware’s PR nightmare? I regretfully admit ToR is probably the one major MMO title released in the last six years that I haven’t played at all, so I have no real experience here.

Bioware had a PR disaster earlier this year related to Mass Effect 3. I will not go into the details because I do not want to derail this discussion.

But here is how Bioware handled their situations. Some of this sounds similar to the current Arenanet GW2 situation.

1. Bioware did not deliver on its pre-release statements about its product.
2. People finished the game and then shared various feedback about this. Questioned what had happened to Bioware’s stated vision for the game. A vision they had been promoting for at least a year.
3. Bioware said nothing for at least a month. But the press attacked these people and basically said “shut up you entitled whiners.” Bioware never defended their customer base nor upheld what they had been saying for years (“we listen to our customers. it is your game as well as ours”).
4. Between Bioware’s continued silence and the attacks on the customers dissatisfied with the product, the whole thing became a firestorm.
5. People protested in various ways. Some creative (one guy sent them cupcakes which made fun of the crappy ending they made to the game). 80,000 people even donated to a charity to signify that they wanted Bioware to fix the ending (one of several major complaints with ME3).

After months of continued vocal customer dissatisfaction, Bioware finally agreed to fix the game by modifying the ending. They only focused on a partial fix though and never addressed some of the core issues – some of which began long before the end of the game. So only time will tell if the loyal customer base will buy their next game.

In the meantime, they have had a financial disappointment with SWTOR (EA’s words to its investors not mine), continued talk on the Net about the issues with ME3, 2 major layoffs of employees working on SWTOR and the resignation of the 2 founders of the company.

At this point, the Bioware brand is tainted and has a stink on it that may not go away anytime soon, if ever.

Dzoni.1082:

dalendria.3762:

Omega.1473:

offence.4726:

Im starting to miss the wow crowd /sad days.

Then go back. You should have never bought this game because it wasn’t made for you. But because of illiterate dungeon trolls like you who can’t be bothered to read about a game before buying it DEMANDED that ArenaNet give them a hamster-wheel to run on, they ruined the game for the people that they originally pitched the game to.

Its because of you content locusts that the MMO genre just got pushed back into the dark ages after only 3 months in the sun. You’re a piece of scum. Enjoy the rest of high school.

Please don’t take this as me telling you what to do. But there is no reason to call people names. However, I understand your anger and frustration. For some of us that hate “gear stat progression,” it does create strong emotions.

It’s not the mechanic itself but its the negative experiences we had as a result of it. I came to GW2 to get away from a toxic MMO environment. I had hoped that the things they were putting in place would make it a fun MMO for me. Then I played and to my surprise, it truly was different than other MMOs and fun. For 3 months, I have been enjoying the game and community. Now, I am already seeing the same negative behaviors that I left the toxic MMOs for.

…and no offence taken . I am sorry if i offended anyone, on other hand. But i have reasons to be frustrated and angry. This was first MMORPG that i gave money for in years (which on other hand delayed my purchase of “Pathfinder Rulebook”) only because i sold on the story “but we dont want to make the same MMORPG everyone else is making”. Good marketing for them, they screwed up one more fool.

Also, speaking on guilt, i blame myself most of all people… i fell for marketing, which was against my principles… oh well If i make to refund, i will get Pathfinder Rulebook afterall (at least it will not magically turn into magazine after 3 months :P )

First, no need to apologize but thanks for being mature enough to do it (no sarcasm intended).

Second, I think you have hit on the reason I may be having an emotional reaction as well. I hate being lied to or deceived. It makes me feel like the person thinks I was so dumb I would believe them.

I also believed the marketing about this being different than other MMOs. But when they delivered on most of what I expected and I was having fun, I really believed them. Then this hit and it felt like a slap in the face. Like why was I so stupid to believe they would hold onto their vision. I know they did in GW1 but there was no guarantee they would here. I will not get fooled again. So for me anything they say right now to try and make this better will fall on deaf ears.

LadyRhonwyn.2501:

Urrid.4593:

Mews of Despair.3704:

Its hard to progress in a game when I feel like I am no longer the target audience.

Well put!

I actually fell down a deep hole when I read this:

" we have found that our most dedicated players were achieving their set of Exotic gear and hitting “the Legendary wall.” "

The fact that I had bought several character slots, bank slots, bag slots and other assorted stuff from the gem store, and had spent most of my free time on this game didn’t count at all. As I still had no exotic gear, I couldn’t be a very dedicated player…

Someone in their marketing or financial area is confusing time played with gem shop purchases.

But yes, I also feel the same way. I played my way and loved their original design approach. I spent money in the cash shop for the items I liked and to show my support. Planned on spending a monthly amount plus Wintersday purchases. But now, it is clear to me that I am not their target audience and I bought the wrong game. I guess I should not have done any product research nor read their marketing materials. I should have assumed this would be like WOW and its clones. Then I could have avoided this altogether.

Arsenal.2601:

The tone has changed radically since the weekend and, as I see it, for the foreseeable future. Here’s my take, as generalizing and speculative as it may be:

The developers/public relations people presented Guild Wars 2 as a true alternative to what many acknowledged as a tired genre. And they were right, the genre is tired. Many disaffected players were looking for just this kind of game and embraced this one whole-heartedly. It was a relief, a refuge. And, as a rule, innovative products that work well have a tendency to create a particularly evangelical, deeply committed form of fan who will defend it to Earth’s end, warts and all (for reference, see: Apple) .

The flip side of this is obvious. Betrayal (real or imagined) of this group is an usually nasty business. Especially when it looks as though the people who bought into GW2’s well documented philosophy were scorned for the very people they’ve spent the past few weeks defending this game against. And, warranted or not in this case, betrayal is something that elicits a very strong response.

The real problem is not just the forums, although they are a real problem, but the very real chance this bitterness may begin to leak into the game itself affecting the majority who do not frequent forums. Again, a nasty, nasty business with relief nowhere in sight.

Agree and well said.

I have been trying to explain this in numerous posts but you have done it so much better.

Eveningstar.6940:

Raine.1394:

I would really like a non-PR recounting of the thought process that led to this.

In short: They honestly thought a tier was missing from the game. They honestly thought it wouldn’t be a big deal if they added a new one with a modest stat upgrade to bridge a rarity gap. They honestly thought Ascended gear is something that could benefit the game in the long run, which wouldn’t alienate casual players but would also appeal to hardcore players, which wouldn’t result in a grind but would create a sense of progression.

They just didn’t anticipate such a massive outcry. And now that it’s happening, there’s nothing they can say that won’t lead to yet -another- outcry because their credibility is shot.

(P.S: This is roughly more or less what happened with LOTRO and Radiance. The Devs wanted to be bold and honestly had good intentions with it. They tried hard to sell it despite outrage. It didn’t work. So there is precedence for this kind of thing.)

You may be right.

But that means they also did not understand their core customer base and the reason people bought their product. They never advertised this game as similar to the WOW or gear stat progression model. In fact, their marketing even said if “you hate MMOs” give us a try.

This a major marketing blunder. So if they reversed it, it may retain what is left of the core customer base. It may also get that part of the base buying in the cash shop again. However, every day that they do not explain their change in direction ensures that the anger and negative talk about this will continue.

I offer up again – Bioware. Bioware’s PR nightmare should have been a marketing case study for every major gaming company. I see them repeating the same mistakes that Bioware’s marketing team made.

panzer.6034:

Read this whole thread and literally laughed out loud at Gele’s post. XD

I am laughing so hard now at the post I have tears in my eyes.

I know the post insulted me (a supporter of no gear stat progression). I just am not sure exactly what the insults were.

Orion.7264:

I’ll just be playing Skyrim until they do something about Ascended. I’m giving them a couple weeks to respond and revert the stats, after that I’ll get my money back.

hehehe me too. Love Skyrim. I started my 3rd playthrough last week. Also, trying to finish Assassin’s Creed over the holiday.

Have not logged in since late Sunday. May avoid this weekend as well.

MorceluLebeau.5109:

As most of us are WoW/Ex WoW players…I’m sure you guys remember the fiasco of the real ID that was to be implemented on their forums. I worked for Blizzard at the time and the community teams couldn’t keep up with the posts, it was gaining at time 5 pages a minute in posts The “thoughts on Ascended gear” now looking at 10844 replies with 134949 views. It took a letter from Mike Morhaim himself to kill the fire at blizzard and a retraction of realID on the forums

Now, we have ascended gear in game and frankly only way I see this fire being put out, is either reascending the new gear or nerfing them to exotic stats. With a letter from Anet design team saying. “Yes, this did seem like a good idea in theory, but it did go against the Manifesto and we will be adjusting the stats of Ascended items to only include Agony slots, and all exotics now will be formatted to include Agony.”

But watching these forums is exactly like the fiasco of Forum RealID…what do you guys think?

I stopped playing WOW 4 years ago so this does not sound familiar. How long did it take before Blizzard reversed its change? If you can shared, what the internal mood and discussion when they saw the furor over it?

Omega.1473:

offence.4726:

Im starting to miss the wow crowd /sad days.

Then go back. You should have never bought this game because it wasn’t made for you. But because of illiterate dungeon trolls like you who can’t be bothered to read about a game before buying it DEMANDED that ArenaNet give them a hamster-wheel to run on, they ruined the game for the people that they originally pitched the game to.

Its because of you content locusts that the MMO genre just got pushed back into the dark ages after only 3 months in the sun. You’re a piece of scum. Enjoy the rest of high school.

Please don’t take this as me telling you what to do. But there is no reason to call people names. However, I understand your anger and frustration. For some of us that hate “gear stat progression,” it does create strong emotions.

It’s not the mechanic itself but its the negative experiences we had as a result of it. I came to GW2 to get away from a toxic MMO environment. I had hoped that the things they were putting in place would make it a fun MMO for me. Then I played and to my surprise, it truly was different than other MMOs and fun. For 3 months, I have been enjoying the game and community. Now, I am already seeing the same negative behaviors that I left the toxic MMOs for.

fractal.7039:

Anet should do nothing… The forum whining is whining. People think their opinion matter and it doesn’t.

If every single person opinion mattered, nothing would get done in this world.

Corrected that for you.

Anet should not have changed their product design/vision by adding “gear stat progression”… The forum whining is whining. People think their opinion matter and it doesn’t.

If every single person opinion mattered, nothing would get done in this world.

Solaxo.7409:

Honestly after seeing all these negative posts over this; I really hope they blow the gates wide open and go full ascended gear! So many friends I made in 7 years of wow would come over and have a blast! If you’re leaving over this; send me your stuff and thanks for buying the game!

Keep up the great work Anet!!!

How much are you planning to spend in the Cash Shop to show your support for vertical gear progression?

Logun.2349:

Yet another example of how bad game design breeds a bad community

Just a few days ago we had a community of players that would risk death and a repair bill to fight their way to you face down in the mud body. Today we have this ….

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Fractals-whats-with-these-people

Yes, the Fractal discussion is getting ugly. So much for this game being one of the friendliest MMOs. So sad. How could they not know that their design change would foster bad behavior and undermine cooperative play?

Logun.2349:

The cry’s for the single player open world end game have started as a result of fewer players participating in the the content…… it’s like watching a train come off the tracks in slow motion.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Orr-and-Southsun-Cove-are-player-unfriendly

Wait, I am getting more and more confused about the outcome of this patch. First, I see concerns from people who cannot get Fractal lvl 1 groups 2 days after release. Now, I see complaints about lack of players in Southsun Cove. How can this be? The new content just came out a few days ago.

Why are people not playing in Southsun? When the game launched, the starter areas were packed? Is this no different? There were tons of people in Orr pre-patch so I know there were enough high-levels.

What is going on here? If this new content is good, people should be consuming it like crazy. At least for the first few weeks.

They think that some of us will realize how long it takes to get the Ascended gear and instead of giving up, spend real money for gems then convert that to in-game gold. The problem is that some might but others are so disgusted by this that we have decided to not spend another dime in the cash shop.

I still have not decided if I will stop playing. Really enjoy my guild and the pre-patch content. So I will just skip out on the “new hotness gear grind” if I continue to play. If I fall behind, I fall behind. If this is the true start of power creep, I will do the same as I did with WOW – play until it gets so unbearable I just quit.

Also, I have decided not to spend anymore money on this game. Sad part is that I thought I was the type of customer they were courting. Love the idea of horizontal progression and the fact they would not introduce gear tiers post-launch. Also, I love games and allocate of lot of my disposable income towards them. I have already used the cash shop and was planning to spend more for Wintersday. Also, decided to spend a minimum of $15 a month to show support because I thought the game was as good as a sub-based one.

Now, the wallet is closed.

Xpiher.5209:

We aren’t trying to convince you. We are trying to convince ANET that they messed up. If you play MMOs for gear treadmill and progression then I have to ask, why did you buy GW2 in the first place?

Arenanet stated repeatedly for years that their Guild Wars product would not have “gear stat progression.” So I am also wondering why anyone would buy GW2 expecting vertical gear progression.

Worse, why would you try to change a core feature of the product?

Do you dislike 2d platforming and then ask that Super Mario change to a 3d view? Do you hate 1st person view and being killed all the time, and then ask Call of Duty to change to 3rd person and limit people’s kills per match?

Even if you do demand radical design changes to the core of a game, do those companies listen to you and do it? No. Super Mario will remain in 2d. COD will remain in 1st person and let you kill away. Why? Because they know who their core customer base is and they will not risk losing them.

SneakyErvin.3056:

Why did they not introduce the ascendant parts in WvW so WvWers could get them? That would be fair and give everyone 2 options to obtain them. Then have WvW specific infusions and fractal infusions, obtained from their respective field of use.

Tada, simple solution and fix.

My recent thought is that not introducing it in WvW at the same time was intentional. They know how much content and which content the population consumes (they have the internal stats). Not sure how popular WvW is but I personally enjoy it.

So if they had offered you the path to get the gear in WvW, what incentive would there have been to do the dungeon? I mean incentive for people who enjoy WvW only or more than dungeons. I think they intentionally offered the dungeon path to force people who want the new gear to do it.

Moreover, they increased the stats to tap into that part of the psyche that does not want to feel ‘left behind’ in a game. “I no longer have max stat gear. but I don’t like doing dungeons over and over. Oh well, I guess I have no choice now. fractals here I come.”

Rpgtabbycat.5869:

But because these items are better than exotic, people feel they will be forced to grind them to remain competitive with those people who wanted to do the fractals content and have already obtained them.

I just wanted to edit and add that ArenaNet could have avoided this entire fiasco by simply making the new Ascended items have the same stats as regular gear but with Infusion and better looking/more desirable skins.

It would have had to have been different Infusion items. The ones they have created also have stats. So to keep the Exotic and Ascended equal they would have had to remove the stats from the Infusion item or give people a chance to add the Infusion item to their Exotic.

Based on the recent change to gear stat progression, I am sure the introduction of the Holy Trinity will be next.

Why stop there? Let’s add raids, quest hubs and mounts. Please change everything good about your design and make this like every other MMO in the marketplace.

I am sure it will make more money. I mean there are tons of traditional MMOs that are making money, right?

I only had a chance to experience GW1 for a few months this year. I played the GW2 beta and was so excited I bought all the GW1 games in April.

I do agree that GW1 set a design precedent that we expected and were told would be in this game. Until this patch, I was also enjoying the game. My only complaints were the DR and continuation of bugs.

But I played around it, they made adjustments to DR so I did not notice as much anymore and bugs did not prevent me from experiencing the content I liked.

Now… I just have no words. I have gone from shock to frustration to just not caring. Once I reach apathy with a game, I am done. So I know where this is heading for me. Have not played since Sunday. Will be playing other games during my Thanksgiving holiday (that is always my fav gaming time…all day baby!!!!).

cele.7398:

dalendria.3762:

I really hope Mike O’Brien says something soon about all of this. He has been the manifesto spokesperson for years.

He should explain the reason for this change in his vision.

The reason for this change is obvious: Nexon bought a lot of NCSoft shares, and applied pressure to NCSoft so they are calling the shots at ArenaNet now.

The decision to abandon the Manifesto and target the WoW audience came from them, and ArenaNet has nothing to say in this matter – they are not even allowed to talk on the forums besides statements approved by NCSoft.

ArenaNet developers are so desperate they communicate with little messages in the game (or over twitter).

And Mike O’Brian is probably contemplating what he should do – watch how NCSoft slowly destroys the game and his company similar to EA destroying Bioware, or leave and start something else. Not an easy decision.

This makes me sad. But I think some of what you are saying is right. I posted a few days ago that I have only seen companies do this when someone new is put in charge or gains new power. Most company execs will not take such a strategic risk at destroying their brand and core customer base unless they are forced to do so.

http://divinitysreach.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/implications.html

More and more articles are calling this out. And people are posting their displeasure on game review and retail sites.

What do you think the outcome of this will be? Do you agree or disagree with the articles?

SameHH.1048:

I always come to forums and think that the game is dying, but then I go to the game and see the complete opposite. Here after reading the forums you think no one will get ascended and everyone will stop playing but then you log in game and watch LA map chat and guild chat (big guilds) flood (maybe exaggerating a bit with flooding) with ascended equip links. Forums is only about 10% of the people who play the game.

There is a slight difference this time. People have posted evidence that they got refunds because they did not like the radical change in design.

I have read tons of complaints prior to this patch but never saw one person state that they requested a refund due to the issue.

The discontent over this change is growing and spilling out into other sites. In North America, this is a big retail season due to post-Thanksgiving holiday promotions. The negativity on this is hitting retail sites. Do you think people who wanted horizontal progression and no gear stat progression will buy the game now?

I really hope Mike O’Brien says something soon about all of this. He has been the manifesto spokesperson for years.

He should explain the reason for this change in his vision.

El Hefe.2814:

dalendria.3762:

I bought this game because I believed it would focus on fun. Here is one of the statements that encouraged me to buy it and continue playing it until the recently.

Colin Johanson, Lead Content Designer

“The rarest items in the game are not more powerful than other items, so you don’t need them to be the best. The rarest items have unique looks to help your character feel that sense of accomplishment, but it’s not required to play the game. We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional, so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who don’t are just as powerful and get to have fun too.”

so you have a problem with legendaries? they aren’t required.

Until the patch….

I had no problems with legendary items. They had the same stats as exotics. So it was my choice, if I went after them or not. Never felt like I had to pursue it and was perfectly happy with the exotic pieces I decided would create the look I wanted.

Post patch….

Legendary weapons are no longer purely optional. Arenanet made it clear they are bumping the stats up to be on par with Ascended. They will now have better stats than my Exotic weapons.

So unless I do not care about falling behind in the game (gear treadmill approach), I have to get them. No longer a choice unless you consider avoiding content and being outmatched due to not having max stats a choice.

I played WOW for 4 years. I had to skip certain end game content because I refused to be forced to grind for each new tier of gear. I paid a monthly subscription but could not participate in content simply because I did not have the “new hotness” gear. I quit WOW and thought I finally found a MMO, GW2, that did not support that approach. I was right until the 11/15 patch.

Twaddlefish.6537:

Cool. Thanks for the info. While I understand (to some extent) the outrage, I do feel that a lot of people miss the

" it’s not required to play the game." part of that. Example, there was a guy in Gandara LA last night saying “LFG FotM Lvl80 Exo NON00BS”. In 20 seconds, most of map chat was taking the piss out of him for being an elitist prick.

But most of all, I am confused. There’s no real need for Ascended gear at the moment in main PvE, and odds are if you go deep enough in FotM, you’ll get them anyway. I am fully aware of the arguments for and against this new tier.

Again, thanks so this can probably be locked now.

I get what you are saying. If Ascended existed prior to launch, I would have never said a thing. The reason I am disgusted by this change is because a) it is introduction of a new gear tier post-launch after we were told Exotics had max stat, b) it was explained to be added for the “end game raiding types”, c) they never provided any concrete evidence that a large percentage of their customer base wanted gear stat progression, d) I bought a product based on horizontal progression and 3 months later they removed this, e) they are planning to have new content that supports this new approach.

Where is the new content to show their continued support for horizontal progression? Why did they throw their manifesto, their 7 year design vision, out the window 3 months after launch?

I bought this game because I believed it would focus on fun. Here is one of the statements that encouraged me to buy it and continue playing it until the recently.

Colin Johanson, Lead Content Designer

“The rarest items in the game are not more powerful than other items, so you don’t need them to be the best. The rarest items have unique looks to help your character feel that sense of accomplishment, but it’s not required to play the game. We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional, so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who don’t are just as powerful and get to have fun too.”

Here are their statements about not putting gear stat progression in their Guild Wars games.

Colin Johanson, Lead Content Designer

“The rarest items in the game are not more powerful than other items, so you don’t need them to be the best. The rarest items have unique looks to help your character feel that sense of accomplishment, but it’s not required to play the game. We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional, so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who don’t are just as powerful and get to have fun too.”

Mike O’Brien, Arenanet President and Founder

“Here’s what we believe: If someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can’t realistically acquire it, that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game. Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games – we leave the grind to other MMOs.”

Op disagree with you.

Before the 11/15 patch, this game never felt like a grind to me. I just did what I wanted to because I was having fun. Grind for me is when I have no choice. I must do it or else I will not be able to a) do the end game content, b) get the new better gear, c) play with my guildmates who are demanding I do it, d) and so on.

Until this patch, there was nothing that forced me to grind in this game. The legendary weapons were only different based on looks and effect. They did not give you a stat advantage. So if you decided to pursue them using a grind approach, that was your choice. No one forced you to go after them.

There were even Exotics with better looks that took more effort to get. Again, they had same stats as the “easy to craft” Exotics. So if you choose to “grind” for them, it was your choice.

Before their complete overhaul of their game design, Arenanet said multiple times that they do not include “forced” grind in their games. Mike O’Brien made it clear that if you go after a “hard to get” item the only distinction of that item should be “cosmetic.” It should “not” be something that you are forced to get because you will fall behind in the game or can’t do certain content.