Guild Wars 2

Joy!

LS and FS pathing looked amazing on paper – super glad to see it’s panning out.

Can anyone verify the damage of LS as compared to the second swing of pre-patch FS? I’m assuming Pre-patch first swing and post-patch flanking strike hit for the same amount of damage.

DeceiverX.8361:

I love these changes tbh. As a thief I’m fine with mug not critting considering we get our 3 sec reveal again and a lot of really good changes across the board. More build variety is always a plus in my eyes.

Except the Mug change was pvp-centric, and pvp still has 4s revealed… even though the initial logic was to deny WvW perma-stealth (not that it was a good idea for that either, making the subject more complicated). Not that I care very much about 4s revealed in sPvP, but it feels like a smoke screen to me to keep the revealed at 4s in the one format it wasn’t really an issue in.

On the upside, Larcenous strike has the potential to be amazing (not sure yet if damage/cast time was changed from the pre-patch FS second strike), the shot portion of shadow shot being unblockable and leeching changes are nice minor-ish buffs.

Unfortunately I’m out of the house and rather impatient – would anyone be so kind as to check the damage/activation time on Larcenous strike and let me know if it matches the second swing of pre-patch FS?

It’s kind of funny how quickly people identify themselves as having never played a thief for even a single PvP match via their suggestions. From suggesting removing leap finisher from HS, a CD on Infusion, removing Infusion of shadow entirely…

When Brass calls you a kitten you probably assume its meant offensively – it probably is, but he’s right. You’re exclaiming for all the players here to see just how little you know about thieves, then judging yourself fit to make balance changes to the class. It makes you look silly and uninformed, it makes you seem like a poor player, and most of all, makes it impossible for you to be taken seriously.

Guys, stop with the half measures – Just ask Anet to remove thief from the game entirely.

Every single week someone is in here with a new problem – something else that’s so insanely OP about thief that it needs to be utterly gutted “for the good of the game”.

Stop wasting your time asking Anet to dismantle thief piece by piece – just start petitioning that they remove the class entirely.

Or, you could Learn to Play. That’s not meant in a derisive manner – your inexperience and the downright ridiculous awfulness of your suggestion(s) will only be made clear to you once you have a better understanding of the games basic mechanics and more complex class interactions.

Volrath.1473:

No one mentioned anything about the second strike (Larcenous) hitting for high dmg, and since it will cost 1 init it will probably just steal a boon wile dealing residual to no dmg at all (in my humble opinion)…

About the unblockable part of the skill, i have no idea and would also like to know how it will work.

why would they change the damage when the overall Initiative expense hasn’t changed? (3 for the evading spin stab, 1 for Larcenous, rather than 4 and both strikes lumped together)? its not like larcenous strike can be abused for 1i, since it chains off the 3i flanking strike

My usual note: All my opinions are about sPvP -

I see a lot of people kvetching about the Mug change…but very little talk about Larcenous strike.

Though we’ll have to wait til the 30th to see exactly how it works, on paper, it sounds absolutely amazing. Just judging from the description, it fixes almost every issue S/D has (our current most versatile weaponset)
- Better pathing on Flanking strike to begin with
- A split between the Evading-low damage first strike and the open-to-getting-your-face-smashed-in high damage second strike, giving the player a ton more control
- Lower initial cost for when you really need an evade (admittedly a more minor point than the rest of these)
- Boon theft

I unfortunately did not get to watch the SotG and only read the “cliff notes” someone posted – any mention on whether or not the first strike will retain unblockable and a single boon strip? Or has unblockable been moved to Larcenous strike, and the boon strip replaced with the boon steal?

Farzo.8410:

They don’t have to hurry with PvP since it’s not there the money comes from.

That’s part of my point – give me a way to spend money as a PvP focused player. I understand things cost money – without a monthly subscription fee, Anet needs something to justify any amount of money spent on PvP development – so give us a way to spend money!

Custom arenas are a perfect example – why these weren’t fast-tracked and out in January, I’ll never know.

Evan Lesh.3295:

evilapprentice.6379:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Oni Link.4621:

You should put ALL SPvP matters as top priority, because if you want GW2 to have a feature, you must do it. Otherwise it will die very soon. Everyone is saying that, because it is sooooo obvious.
I do not doubt you’re working, but you are working slow with wrong priorities. Wake up.

Working on every PvP feature we want concurrently is obviously not feasible. Everything must have a different priority. Dueling is a feature that could happen anywhere in the game, and could be picked up by a team other than the sPvP team. As far as our team’s priorities go, dueling is certainly not above custom arenas, spectators, shout casting, split queues, etc. I know everyone may want a specific feature first like dueling, and it sucks we can’t please everybody at once, but that’s the priority we’re working with.

How is that list of (mostly) basic features still so long when this game launched at the end of august 2012?

I wouldn’t call those features basic, but I can fully understand that they’re expected from the community after seeing other games like Smite or LoL. Those companies were dedicated to those games from the start though, while we at ANet were, and still are, making a massive MMO.

And I understand – I’m not trying to be a prick, or come across as entitled prat, but lets face facts – roughly 8 months is a long, long time to go with such sparse PvP improvements. You’ve done some shoe-string balancing (Much of it hotly debated, some of it probably in need of being reverted), added a single round tourney mode, added matchmaking that doesn’t separate solo queue and team queue, added 2 maps (one of which gives a single class a pretty large advantage), and added 5v5 servers. Since the last week in august to today – that’s not an impressive list. I listen to a SotG, then the next patch comes out, and the 2 couldn’t be more disparate – all these great ideas are bandied about, and come delivery time, we get almost nothing. I really like your game, but it’s getting harder and harder to ignore the gaping holes behind the pretty facade. The game went from populated and fun to a nigh ghost town in comparison, its pretty clear something isn’t working. You don’t even have a Public Test Server. How can that be? Comparing what PvP has gotten compared to what PvE has gotten since launch is an extremely disheartening process.

Is it a money problem? A manpower problem? Be straightforward with us – most of us still like this game, and want to like it more – if you need more money, give us things to spend money on – I appreciate the fact that you don’t ask me to pay a monthly fee, but I’ve been buying Dye packs just to make sure you guys get a bit of money for all the server time I occupy – not because I’m crazy about dye’s, but as a PvPer, its one of the very few things in your store that I can even potentially use.

mursie.3681:

This is for tpvp only. Outside of that, this conversation is not intended.

in tpvp – thiefs are completely and utterly weak, unless their teammates are great. Period. Only the warrior has more issues. It has only one viable build – GC burst.

This class can not assault a point against a bunker 1v1.

This class should not be capping a point unless potentially a back cap ninja..but at moderate to high levels of tpvp..that doesn’t exist.

This class has to engage an enemy….that is already engaged… to eliminate them. This class should not attempt to stomp in a team fight environment. Not because black powder isnt awesome for stomping (it is)… but because the thief is so completely frail that the 3 seconds attempting to stomp will likely end up in you being dead.

Bottom line – if your teammates suck…if they die instantly in an engagement… you as a thief will be totally worthless and bring nothing to the match. You absolutely must be carried by your teammates and if they can carry you… you are an unbelievable offensive weapon. If they can’t carry you… you will bring nothing to help the match.

imho.

In this vein..they are extremely weak. The class requires its teammates to be good and carry in order to realize its potential.

I’m not agreeing or disagreeing with your assessment, just adding a clarification – if properly supported, a theif is an amazing offensive weapon, the class isn’t being carried…its being supported.

Carrying implies that the thief contributes nothing or next to nothing, when you yourself are saying that properly supported they’re a strong offensive asset.

Kultas Sunstrider.9218:

evilapprentice.6379:

Every thief rails against these silly personal anecdotes /w screenshot when they’re used to “point out how OP thieves are” with some giant backstab crit. The blade cuts both ways – this personal experience does little to prove “how bad thieves are”. While I’d love alot more spec diversity on my thief, they currently have at least 2 TPvP effective builds – they’re not the best in game, but they work enough to be a valuable member of the team.

2 Viable specs is what most classes boast at the moment – sure, thieves could be better, but at least we’re not warriors.

there is only 1 viable build for thieves…. just to say.

Venom Share
Burst variations (generally considered 1 spec).

Every thief rails against these silly personal anecdotes /w screenshot when they’re used to “point out how OP thieves are” with some giant backstab crit. The blade cuts both ways – this personal experience does little to prove “how bad thieves are”. While I’d love alot more spec diversity on my thief, they currently have at least 2 TPvP effective builds – they’re not the best in game, but they work enough to be a valuable member of the team.

2 Viable specs is what most classes boast at the moment – sure, thieves could be better, but at least we’re not warriors.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Oni Link.4621:

You should put ALL SPvP matters as top priority, because if you want GW2 to have a feature, you must do it. Otherwise it will die very soon. Everyone is saying that, because it is sooooo obvious.
I do not doubt you’re working, but you are working slow with wrong priorities. Wake up.

Working on every PvP feature we want concurrently is obviously not feasible. Everything must have a different priority. Dueling is a feature that could happen anywhere in the game, and could be picked up by a team other than the sPvP team. As far as our team’s priorities go, dueling is certainly not above custom arenas, spectators, shout casting, split queues, etc. I know everyone may want a specific feature first like dueling, and it sucks we can’t please everybody at once, but that’s the priority we’re working with.

How is that list of (mostly) basic features still so long when this game launched at the end of august 2012?

“Kekekeke 3v1 nbs” when he charged at 3 of our team by himself.
“Kekekeke 2v1 nbs” when he charged at 2 of us by himself on his next res.
“Your such a kitten, all you do is move around and stealth” when he downed me while I was soloing svanir – I ressed off the svanir kill (which I got), killed him, let his pet revive him, then killed him again. I stealthed exactly once, and my “Moving around” was Inf strike and not just standing still like an idiot.

hackks.3687:

There is a period of time in which the ele can’t hit you after updraft – which goes for all launch skills but we’ll stick with ele as the example. The window of time includes when they are launched backwards and you away from them as well as the time it takes for them to close the distance and get back to your new location. This is a fact. I know it because I can count on it every time it happens and it doesn’t require super human reflexes like dealing with an instagib. There is ample time to pan your camera, see where they are in location and skill rotation and gauge whether you even need to pop your stun break at all. I could point out a handful of other CC skills that are more problematic than a launch/knock back.

If I’m not getting your point it’s because you’re not making one based on actual fact. You’re also missing my point that the issue you and others are having with this can be overcome with a little knowledge and a little practice. No twitch reflexes. No gimmicks. Just understanding and awareness.

Unless you’ve got any questions I’m going to leave it at that. Good luck.

I’ve mentioned something along the lines of “Team Game”, “Other Players”, “AoE”, and "Ground target AoE’ about 5 times so far, and you keep returning to the “The ele” and “updraft”.

So here it is, just one more time – Lets ignore 1 on 1 situations entirely. It’s not worth arguing them. But in a team game where other players can take advantage of a player who does not have control of their character, and for some period of time has NO WAY to regain control of their character, DESPITE specifically carrying an ability that is intended to do that very thing is poorly designed. Focus fire is a real killer in TPvP – You pick a target, and everyone does their best to kill it. If that target is hit with Basilisk venom or Throw bolas or magic bullet, or skull crack, or supply crate or any other ability that deprives the player some or all control, they have a way to escape it – its a game of give and take – DPS tries to lock you down with well timed stuns, dazes, immobilizes, etc, and the target tries to escape the worst of it with stunbreaks and condition cleanses. When certain classes have an ability that’s like a stun, only better because it can’t be broken immediately like every other stun in the game, its imbalanced.

hackks.3687:

RTL is the most obvious animation in the game. When you know what follows can hurt you why wouldn’t you try to dodge it? And the reason they use it with regularity is because its all they have and their sustain can allow them to hang in a fight till they can use the bulk of it again.

The rest of it just sounds like you are getting caught way out of position. Sorry but that’s just what I take from it. Most players know to aim for where you land as opposed to where you are while flying through the air. Still, when you land you have the option to break the stun. The inabity to break the stun while in mid air is countered by the fact the majority of these skills have self knock backs or long cast times as well as moving you away from them requiring them to close the distance. Other than updraft they’re generally all used to create distance not stun and spike per se.

Just takes some understanding of how the skills work.

Note: I didn’t once say L2Dodge or L2P. Just trying to be civil and constructive here. Not all players share your frustrations so there must be something to handling these kinds of skills.

My point was there are plenty of people who don’t RTL->Updraft. They know its super obvious, so they use Updraft at other times to catch people. RTL isn’t a requirement for Updraft (Like the long channel for churning earth), so it’s not Updraft itself that’s easy to dodge, its the common combo of RTL->Updraft. Regardless, “You can dodge it” isn’t a valid defense in this case – if Anets attitude to stuns was “well, you can just dodge it”, stun breakers wouldn’t exist, yet they do. You simply can’t dodge everything – sometimes, you’re going to eat a stun or a launch or a KB or a KD…etc.

You continue to miss the point – If updraft prevented the ele from doing anything for a length of time perfectly matching the launch effect, it would still be too powerful, because its a stun you cant instantly break out of, unlike nearly every other stun in the game. It’s a team game – other players exists. Ground targeted AoE’s exist. There are traps and poison fields and fire fields and Rain of arrows and wells and marks and so on and so on and so on. Some classes having access to an unbreakable stun, for any length of time, makes them more powerful than the classes that do not have access to an unbreakable stun. Anet clearly agrees with this viewpoint to some extent, because they thought Basilisk Venom being unbreakable for 1s was too powerful and adjusted it accordingly.

There are some people here agreeing – obviously I’m not the only one who feels having 2 classes of stun abilities, 1 being clearly superior, is poor design. It’s fine that you dont agree, but you still haven’t provided a case that changes my mind. I’m still of the opinion that launches being unbreakable is a side effect of disallowing skill use midair, and not a conscious design decision – Anet has been incredibly slow in fixing a number of other bugs and unintended side effects in the past, so I’m pointing out that it’s important to some of us that it be fixed. If Anet came and told me it was intended, I’d still think it was silly, but it wouldn’t be worth arguing here on the boards.

hackks.3687:

It’s honestly just as easy as he made it out to be. The only time you are “defenseless” is while you are in the air. At which point nothing is going to be hitting you. By the time you land they will just be landing themselves and swapping to fire for burning speed. Burning speed then needs to close distance before it hits you. You watch them the whole time to see if they are actually going to hit you and whether or not to pop your stun break. Popping your stun break any sooner is a mistake and a big one at that.

Projectiles will never hit a target moving as fast as the blowout anim. No issue there. Though a smart player will know to aim where you land which is where your SB is available.

The ele rotation is so obvious and should be familiar to everyone at this point. Dodge the RTL and you’ve already won half the battle. The only have the one burst rotation and its on lengthy cd due to fire grab.

I think a lot people treat stun breaks as preventative though by and large they are better serving when used only when absolutely necessary. BV is the only on you really need to break immediately since what follows can certainly kill you. Other than that though I prefer to be as patient as possible before using my SB. It usually serves me pretty well.

If there was one CC that’s in need of some scrutiny it would be Daze. Those can ruin you and can’t be cleared.

Don’t bother bringing up dodges – If your argument is “just dodge it” then lets remove stunbreakers entirely – you should just dodge the stun. The fact is you can’t dodge everything. There’s no requirement that RTL lead into updraft.

2 additional things – I find it hard to believe that stunbreaking the combo is so easy – if it were, the combo wouldn’t be updraft->BS->RoF->FG. If it was obvious and easy to avoid this, Ele’s wouldn’t automatically perform this combo (As you’ve noted, its got a long CD) with the extreme regularity that they do. Look at the thief instagib combo – people learned to dodge it, and it’s since nearly vanished in comparison to how common it used to be – it stopped working because people learned how to counter it and it was too CD intensive to use without nigh certainty that it was going to hit, so thieves stopped rolling it. If it was easy and intuitive to hit a stunbreak and cancel out the Updraft->->->Fire grab combo, the same thing would happen to it. It hasn’t, so we can see that it’s not that simple.

Secondly, no matter how fast I’m bouncing, there’s tons of abilities that can still hit you – any intelligently aimed ground targeting ability; any effect with a radius that you happen to bounce through; anyone shooting with or at a slight enough angle to your vector of movement while bouncing. Anyone swinging in melee. You make it sound as if it’s impossible to hit a target who’s bouncing, when its actually rather simple – and there are KBs/Launches other than updraft.

Even if you’re doing no damage whatsoever, there shouldn’t be any ability that removes player control that can’t be cancelled by abilities specifically designed to counter them IN THE SAME EXACT MANNER. No Delay, no “wait until X happens”…exactly the same – you hit the stunbreaker, you’re back in control, just like every single other stun in the game. Making 2 classes of player control depriving abilities is stupid, as the one that can’t be countered immediately like the others is obviously the more powerful one, and any class with access to those abilities is going to be better than classes without said access in the long run.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Jax.5261:

It’s like saying “sometime in the future when we balance the game balance won’t be a problem so don’t worry about it now”

…well ok…
I respect you as a dev because I know you’ve personally handled some important quickfixes (really quickly too) but your solution is just silly.
Your game is dying right now, you have to do something right now.

We have been working on things However, we’re nearing the end of a development cycle, so there is literally nothing more I can do right now to help with the dueling “problem” for this patch. When custom arenas are out, you’ll have a much easier time finding the kind of server you like to play on.

The obvious question here then is “Why wasn’t it a priority to address the dueling problem this patch?”

I mean, it’s been a growing problem – 3 out of 5 5v5 hotjoins are “Dueling only” servers. I’m not talking about the play now button, I’m not talking about joining a 3/10 or 4/10 game. 7+/10 games, time after time after time, and everyone is dueling. If I’ve got half an hour to kill and I’m in the mood for a handful of matches, I don’t want to spend 10 minutes server hopping between dueling servers and 8/10 server telling me they’re full. Why wasn’t this a priority 2 patches ago?

hackks.3687:

So then… assisting is the problem?

Edit: in almost 4k matches I can’t recall ever seeing anyone be able to hit the target before the blowout anim ends.

No, the problem is becoming a free target to anyone in the area because you have no counter to being launched. Lets take 2 examples.

A)A thief and a War – the thief hits me with BV, then the warrior charges in and Frenzy->HB’s. In this situation, I can hit my stunbreaker at any time and escape the BV and be free to react.

B)A thief and an Ele – Ele hits me with updraft – I’m a sitting duck for a fixed period of time, in which the thief can do whatever he wants with no fear of any counterplay because there’s a guaranteed period of time where I can’t possibly react.

I honestly have no idea how you could play 4k matches and never be a target when launched – it happens commonly in uncoordinated hot joins and semi-coordinated solo ques when I play. If nothing else, I’m sure you’ve fought an ele before – the standard rotation is Updraft->burning speed->ring of fire->fire grab for a reason – because they all hit you while your still bouncing along the ground. An earlier poster suggested that its possible to time the stunbreak before even the burning speed has a chance to hit you – I’ll be testing when I get home, but the fact that every single DD ele looking to do damage follows this exact same pattern tells me it’s not as easy as he’s making it sound.

Even if it is possible to break the launch effect at some period, its not immediately, meaning any ranged class can effortlessly keep plinking me (and any coordinated melee class can keep hitting me) while I’m waiting for my stunbreak to become an option.

hackks.3687:

Huh? Is this really an issue? What class can que up and land a skill before your stun break is available. It just sounds like people panic without paying attention. There’s virtually zero risk during the blowout and ample time to gauge whether or not you even need to pop your stun break while knocked down.

Literally any other player in the area, for starters. There are other examples, but that’s the clearest.

Here’s a thief build that pretty reliably deals with Retal guardians (among many other things).
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQRAsY4alYmCN3aS3E/5EC3DLEqeKNF3kN1pgrkPA;TwAgzCoouxcj4G7Nubk3sCZEyGiJEA
Copy-Paste the link.

Short Synopsis – You’re tough and you heal like crazy. Leeching Sigil and Leeching venoms procs are straight, un-mitigitable damage – bring thieves guild instead of basilisk and pop spider venom if you want to watch a bunker guard drop in 3 seconds – just HS or Tact Strike at 50% and they’ll be dead before they know whats going on.

naphack.9346:

You don’t get extra regen. The regen from shadow protector is only applied when you don’t have any regen on you.

Also, if you look at acrobatics, you know why Withdraw is good.
You then get pretty good vigor uptime due to the short cd on withdraw.

HiS is one of the few skills where Shadow protector works correctly – you get the shadow protector regen first, THEN the HiS regen.

MaXi.3642:

i think none ever said that stuns should be equal to knockbacks etc… no reason why they should change it, maybe its even intended

Basic MMO design dictates that if you have an ability that deprives a player of control over their character, and an ability that returns control to said player, they interact fairly uniformly (unless listed as a specific exception). Fear isn’t a stun, but stunbreakers break it because it removes player control.

You also did not address my second point – In a team based PvP MMO with E-sport as a goal, giving any class an unbreakable stun is a large imbalance – it removes all skill from the game for 1-3s by allowing uncounterable guaranteed DPS – that should never be the case.

Cirax.9231:

evilapprentice.6379:

So its only 1.5 seconds of unbreakable stun then? I suppose that’s not as bad as 3s, but still unacceptable. No skill should have even .1s of unbreakable stun.

The reason I “Spam” my stunbreaker after an updraft is because its always, ALWAYS followed by Burning Speed->Ring of Fire-> Fire grab. I wonder why that is? Is it because the ele knows, for a fact, that you’ll still be there because most stunbreakers don’t work for a set amount of time after updraft? I’m willing to bet yes!

I do agree it sucks being launched and you have to wait a bit to use a stun break, but it’s a mechanic in the game so our opinions are subjective.

However, you should still be able to time your stun break after being updrafted before the ele can use the burning speed combo – I’ve avoided the combo after being updrafted, as well as seen enemy players escape mine as well. Try it with a friend in the mists – once you get the timing, it’s not that bad.

For that specific example, sure. There are other times when some secondary player mauls me while I’m bouncing across the floor. My point is still that there shouldn’t be any period of time where a stun is 100% uncounterable- it’s just bad design.

As far as I can tell (and I admit my assumption here may be wrong, but I don’t believe it is) the reason launches are unbreakable is because at some point, Anet disallowed the use of skills mid air because people were abusing it in some maps in a manner unrelated to stunbreaks (i believe they were launching ground skills mid-air while jumping out of water, or something like that) – this had the (again, my assumption from my experience) unintended side effect of making launches unbreakable for a certain period of time.

I’m comfortable in my assumption because in a game that claims it wants to be an E-sport, any length of unbreakable stun is unacceptable – it completely kills any notion of counterplay – its an instant advantage with no counter. They realized that was the case with Basilisk Venom and fixed it – giving a thief 1s to burst a target with No way to escape it was ludicrous (and I agree on this point), but any character with a launch can set up the same situation for a thief, and it’s not? It’s not about 2 players killing 1, its about setting up a situation for free DPS with no way to counter it.

Cirax.9231:

evilapprentice.6379:

That is unfortunately not how it works. If you shadow return from an Updraft, you will port back…to be “stunned” for the normal duration of the ability in a different place.

This doesn’t happen if you wait to use shadowstep/return when your body has settled on the ground, about 1.5 seconds after being updrafted.

evilapprentice.6379:

How is a stun+displacement (knocking people in and out of combo fields, into environmental hazards, off points) weaker thban just a stun? Why does it need to be unbreakable in addition?

You don’t get infinite dodges – something being dodgable doesn’t make it ok for that ability to be the only effect in the game that’s a guaranteed unbreakable stun. There’s no skill involved with “I hit you with this ability, so eat it for 3 seconds and you have absolutely no recourse”. To clarify, I’m not claiming “wah, I hit my stunbreaker and it didn’t work”, I’m saying “I know my stunbreaker doesn’t work on this skill, and that’s the problem. There shouldn’t be 2 classes of stuns in the game, 1 which is breakable by an ability explicitly designed to break stun, and one that isnt.”

When you change something that’s clearly OP, its a fix not a nerf. Thats why BV was fixed, not nerfed.

Edit: Just a quick glance at Personal Battering Ram and Updraft counter your “Longer casting time/longer recharge” argument. .25s ct 45cd with a 20% reduction talent for Battering ram and Instant with a 40s CD for Updraft – not exactly crippling cast times and CD’s.

Launches (in your case stun+) are not unbreakable, don’t force you to eat 3 seconds of death without recourse, and updraft knocks you back half the distance compared to battering ram, hence the difference in cast times.

There are few skills in the game that launch, and you have to time your stunbreaker, rather than spam it whenever you’re disabled.

So its only 1.5 seconds of unbreakable stun then? I suppose that’s not as bad as 3s, but still unacceptable. No skill should have even .1s of unbreakable stun.

The reason I “Spam” my stunbreaker after an updraft is because its always, ALWAYS followed by Burning Speed->Ring of Fire-> Fire grab. I wonder why that is? Is it because the ele knows, for a fact, that you’ll still be there because most stunbreakers don’t work for a set amount of time after updraft? I’m willing to bet yes!

Any other stun, it’d be a matter of skill. “Do I launch into my expensive DPS combo after I’ve stunned my opponent? If they stunbreak out and this misses, I’ll be at a disadvantage. Did they already use their stunbreak? What are the chances they’re running 2?” These are just some of the questions a player has to ask themselves after using a stun. Unless they used something that sends their target bouncing across the ground of course, in which case they’re just free to hit buttons, because there is no skill or counterplay involved, they know they’ve got a set amount of time before their target has a chance to react.

Jax.5261:

evilapprentice.6379:

Jax.5261:

KD/KB have longer recharge, casttime and and stronger effect. If you nerf the effect (which doesn’t need nerfing) you make it so it’s weaker than all other forms of stun. All the KD/KB I can think of are easily dodgable too.
They wouldn’t be effective due to you not even being able to knock a player off a point before they stun break, it would be silly.

Understanding game mechanics is part of skill, if you know the exact point in time to stun break, that’s skill. Even though it’s really small and simple that’s what a skilled player takes into account, every little small thing and it adds up. I’ve never considered knowing when to use your stun breakers not skillful.

PS: Wrote this on my tablet that’s why it’s so badly written

How is a stun+displacement (knocking people in and out of combo fields, into environmental hazards, off points) weaker than just a stun? Why does it need to be unbreakable in addition?

You don’t get infinite dodges – something being dodgable doesn’t make it ok for that ability to be the only effect in the game that’s a guaranteed unbreakable stun. There’s no skill involved with “I hit you with this ability, so eat it for 3 seconds and you have absolutely no recourse”. To clarify, I’m not claiming “wah, I hit my stunbreaker and it didn’t work”, I’m saying “I know my stunbreaker doesn’t work on this skill, and that’s the problem. There shouldn’t be 2 classes of stuns in the game, 1 which is breakable by an ability explicitly designed to break stun, and one that isnt.”

When you change something that’s clearly OP, its a fix not a nerf. Thats why BV was fixed, not nerfed.

You’ll probably need to re-read what I wrote.
It isn’t OP. Your stun breakers do work on these skills.

To respond to your edit: Although I’ve always felt updraft needs a cast time nerf to 3/4s. The ele has to be in the Air attunement to cast this spell, this means it’s really prefictable even though its cast time is short.
I don’t know enough about enigneers to know why personal battering ram isn’t a super viable skill. But I wouldn’t feel it’s overpowered.
You’re not actually disproving anything, updraft having an activation time that needs a nerf does not mean ALL KD/KB NEED NERFs.

Again, when you change an OP skill its a fix – a nerf would imply that they lost something. I don’t believe Anet sat down and said “Lets make blowout an unbreakable stun” – its a side effect of something else. It should be fixed. It’s already a stun+displacement. It shouldn’t be unbreakable in addition.

Stun breakers do not work the way they do with all other stuns on these skills. If I’m hit with ANY stun, I hit my stunbreaker, and viola, I’m no longer stunned. If I shadow return out of an updraft, I’m left sitting in that spot for the length of the skill, still stunned – my toolbar is locked down, and I cant move or dodge. That’s not at all like when I hit my stunbreaker on other stuns, and I CAN Move, dodge, and use my skills.

Jax.5261:

KD/KB have longer recharge, casttime and and stronger effect. If you nerf the effect (which doesn’t need nerfing) you make it so it’s weaker than all other forms of stun. All the KD/KB I can think of are easily dodgable too.
They wouldn’t be effective due to you not even being able to knock a player off a point before they stun break, it would be silly.

Understanding game mechanics is part of skill, if you know the exact point in time to stun break, that’s skill. Even though it’s really small and simple that’s what a skilled player takes into account, every little small thing and it adds up. I’ve never considered knowing when to use your stun breakers not skillful.

PS: Wrote this on my tablet that’s why it’s so badly written

How is a stun+displacement (knocking people in and out of combo fields, into environmental hazards, off points) weaker than just a stun? Why does it need to be unbreakable in addition?

You don’t get infinite dodges – something being dodgable doesn’t make it ok for that ability to be the only effect in the game that’s a guaranteed unbreakable stun. There’s no skill involved with “I hit you with this ability, so eat it for 3 seconds and you have absolutely no recourse”. To clarify, I’m not claiming “wah, I hit my stunbreaker and it didn’t work”, I’m saying “I know my stunbreaker doesn’t work on this skill, and that’s the problem. There shouldn’t be 2 classes of stuns in the game, 1 which is breakable by an ability explicitly designed to break stun, and one that isnt.”

When you change something that’s clearly OP, its a fix not a nerf. Thats why BV was fixed, not nerfed.

Edit: Just a quick glance at Personal Battering Ram and Updraft counter your “Longer casting time/longer recharge” argument. .25s ct 45cd with a 20% reduction talent for Battering ram and Instant with a 40s CD for Updraft – not exactly crippling cast times and CD’s.

Stealth.9324:

Fear can be removed but I don’t think anyone will waste a Stun Breaker on that 2s Short duration unless they are in dye situation.

With Updraft, I believe as soon as you hit the floor, hit Stability Skill or Teleport away, you can get up straight away.

That is unfortunately not how it works. If you shadow return from an Updraft, you will port back…to be “stunned” for the normal duration of the ability in a different place.

Noctis Assassin.4035:

The stun+ is caused from not being able to use skill while midair. You used to be able to do it but they made it so you can’t because of people abusing land skills while swimming by jumping out of the water. (Is what I’ve read from forum scavenging over the time gw2 been out.) Stun+ is caused by blowout skills btw, its not random.

I honestly can’t understand how any length of unbreakable stun would be fair. In a game that’s supposed to be team based, any player control removing ability that can’t be broken is free Focus fire, and if it absolutely can’t be countered…well, you’ve got yourself a tremendous imbalance. That was the problem with BV, and it was fixed.

Jax.5261:

Because when you’re knocked back into the air it would seem really silly if you were to magically stand on your feet. Im sure ANet kept this for smoother gameplay.
It’s not OP, it just takes more skill to realise when you can use your stun break effectively and I prefer it like this.

It’s pretty clearly OP. Depriving a player control over their character is hands down the strongest ability in any MMO ever. Designers tend to realize this and give players stunbreakers so it becomes a game of skill – those using the stun have to learn when and where to use their stuns to maximize DPS, and those being stunned have to know when to effectively use their stunbreakers – don’t stunbreak a 2s fear, do stunbreak a BV or the stun from a GS bearing warrior.

Introducing a stun that cannot be broken is just silly. Anet agreed when it came to BV – 1.5 seconds was far too long to deprive a player character control when a theif was around, but 2-3 seconds is fine for some other classes?

Edit: Also, side note – sillier than men throwing fire from their bare hands, teleporting around the map, summoning human beings and monsters from thin air, or turning a man to solid stone (and then having said man just “shrug it off” while reappearing in a flash of lighting)?

Many abilities that knock you off your feet still function as a sort of “Super stun”. They’re better than stuns because in some cases, you can’t immediately use your stunbreaker, and in others, you can stunbreak out but are still locked down (cant move or use abilities) for a set amount of time.

Why are there 2 classes of stun in this game, one that stunbreakers break immediately 100% of the time, and one that stunbreakers don’t break immediately 100% of the time? When thief had it (Basilisk Venom) it was ruled OP and fixed. Why does it remain for a number of other classes with access to KB/KD and other similar abilities?

It should be fixed already.

Its pointless to try and fix Last Refuge in its current form – it literally can’t be done due to the lack of control the player has over it. Lets look at some scenarios

A)Last refuge goes off when you’ve already got revealed. —> The proposed solution would be to make the ability ignore revealed or remove the revealed effect entirely. This would not solve the “I Hit 25% in the middle of casting an ability” issue, which happens often with Last Refuge. This would also rarely enable double stealth attacks (BS, hit 25% almost immediately after and stealth via last refuge, BS again), which people would undoubtedly kitten about.

B)Last refuge goes off mid-swing, causing you to stealth for a fraction of a second, land said attack (CnD, HS, shadowshot, sword AA, etc), immediately losing stealth and getting the revealed debuff —> No good proposed solution to this. You don’t want the attack interrupted (what if I was about to daze a target who was healing, or do that last sliver of damage before they hit an escape/immune?) because that robs control from the player. Letting that one attack ignore the normal stealth rules would cause programming issues (imagine PW or Unload or FS going off and not breaking stealth) and player complaints (because they already complain about how broken stealth is because they’re too lazy to learn the simple way to counter it).

It’d be better to just change the way the skill works entirely – stof’s “1s of evasion when you enter stealth with less than 25% hp” suggestion is good from a design standpoint- it doesn’t do anything automatically, so the player has full control of the effect.

Vargs.6234:

Shadow Protector’s regeneration does not stack, unlike every other form of regeneration. This means it does nothing if you stealth before the last one is over. Which means boon duration is a negative stat.

In fact, shadow protector’s regen does not stack with regen from any source, for any player – making the trait almost completely useless.

. Which set is superior is really a matter of personal preference, experience, and opinion, all three of which are completely irrelevant to the subject.

It is a fact, not an opinion, that D/D’s dual skill is nearly useless in a Direct Damage set up. It’s also a fact that D/P has a gap closer that’s unaffected by movement impairing abilities, and that gap closer doubles the range of what D/D has to offer – it’s also worth using for both damage and gap closing (as well as a blind) when your target is over 50%, whereas hitting HS when your target is over 50% is a waste of initiative from a damage dealing perspective. It’s also a fact that D/P’s access to stealth is not reliant on hitting a target, though it is just my opinion that it makes it better than CnD.

I really shouldn’t have to explain the advantages and disadvantages of the D/D set to you because I assume that you’re already aware of them. Pre-patch D/D was very popular and so was D/P, both have their positives and negatives and to pretend that D/P is now mandatory post-patch is just ignorant, that’s what I just said.

The OP wanted to try D/D so I gave him a build that still works perfectly fine (as opposed to popular opinion which pretends that D/D got nerfed into the ground).

Seriously, it wasn’t hard to understand.

I was just pointing out to OP that going D/D was an inferior choice to going D/P, regardless how misinterpreted D/D’s effectiveness post patch is. He specifically mentioned not necessarily going 25/30/0/0/15 for the CnD-Steal insta gib combo, which is the single thing D/D does better than D/P. It’s not about being mandatory, it’s about being the best weapon set for your intended spec, and for the OP’s intended spec, D/P is the best weapon set – that’s a fact, not an opinion.

As for your second “point”, are you kidding me? The survivability of D/D is almost the same as it has always been (just like D/P is almost the same as pre-patch) and CnD offers excellent survivability.

D/D’s survivability pre and post patch isn’t in question – it’s just that D/P’s is better. D/D doesn’t have an on demand daze, or a blinding field; Which is why I pointed out “Why go with good when you can have great”.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAoaVlUmaN3eS6E/5Ey+hKk7hTZUNlODaymA;TsAg0CtoqxUjoGbNuak1ssYQxkAA
(Might have to copy/paste)
Here’s my favorite D/P build – you hit hard without being total glass

Incurafy.6329:

The x/30/30/x/x D/D builds still work perfectly fine, and I would argue that they were touched a lot less by the nerf than people think (talking as though D/P is mandatory).

But why choose “works fine” over “works great”? Unless your going for some weird Direct damage/Conditon damage hybrid (which OP didn’t mention), D/D is poorly designed when compared to D/P. On demand daze, stealth on demand with no requirements, BP for extra damage evasion, and a solid, blinding 900 gap closer blows away anything D/D offers as far as I’m concerned.

I occasionally wish I had access to dancing dagger, but then I remember for the same amount of initiative I can just teleport to my target (while blinding him) and hit for solid damage…or interrupt what he’s doing with HS.

2 PvP Builds I’ve liked Recently

Build 1 – http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQRAsY4alUmaO3eS6E/5Ex2jeuTe69gsjNsaFoJA;TwAA1CnoqxUjoGbNuak1soYQymgJBA (you may need to copy/paste)

Hybrid Bursty S/D – D/P. If you’ve been playing PvP and paying attention, you’ll notice nearly every single player has a list of boons on them – Bunkers, survival builds, even burst DPS – everyone is stacking boons. Well… kitten boons; I kittening hate boons (on other players at least), and that’s why I love this spec. You’ve got the on demand stripping to shut down boons on anything that’s not a bunker in 2 seconds. Steal is especially fun – you gain vigor, fury, might, swiftness, AND 2 boons from your target shared with you and all your friends. The spec hits relatively hard (especially when your target hits 50% health) and you have a ton of initiative to burst with (15 base, 3 on steal, 4 on heal). Decent health, High armor (for a bursty thief), decent power, and decent crit (with 20s of fury available) combined with S/D’s in and out playstyle leaves you fairly survivable. D/P is there for when you need more burst and less dodging in and out of combat. Plenty of stealth available, though I personally use it sparingly.
Change up the Util’s as you see fit (SR was much stronger when this spec had 30 points in SA, but I keep it around for Tourney play anyway)

Build 2 – http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQRAsY4alYmCN3aS3E95EC3DLEqeKNF3kN1pgrkPA;TwAgzCtouxcj4G7Nubk3sCZEyGiJEA (Copy/paste might be required)

Tanky venom share, S/D – D/P – As far as I understand, this is a bit of a departure from the standard venom share. Your personal healing is amazing – you’ve got 14s regen on slowed pulse, 14s regen on pain response (as well as the burning/bleeding/poison drop), 5% chance of 14s regen on hit, 7s regen on heal (all at 288 HPS), withdraw, and the healing from venoms. With your nearly 3k armor, you will almost feel like a bunker (at least as close as a thief can get, anyway). Burst can be a bit scary (especially since you rely on Inf Strike/Shadow return as your only stunbreaker), but if you escape with 10% of your health and your heal is up, you can be back at 80% and ticking regen in 2 seconds. The utility setup is what dictates your playstyle – if you’re going to be solo queing or Hotjoining (not expecting much teamwork), you bring your own team via Ambush and Thieves Guild – it’s almost scary to watch a target melt when 4 thieves proc 5 spider venoms a piece on a target in 2-3 seconds. If you’re expecting a more coordinated environment, load up more venoms – you share the might proc as well as the venom (with its extra damage and healing procs) – between venom heals and regen-on-heal (which you share with nearby teammembers), you can restore alot of health to coordinted teammates. You can opt for Might on dodge over Vigor on heal, but I personally prefer the extra endurance. Also considering switching Leeching sigil for Energy sigil – still just a personal preference.

Damage and healing are most definitely not linked – hitting for 367, healing for 578. You should honestly try the 20/0/30/20/0 setup with dwyana’s – its ridiculously survivable.

Grimwolf.7163:

Daecollo.9578:

Well “Shadow Arts.” is basicly Deception. Leeching Venoms and other things are in Shadow Arts. What if Life-Stealing is also a “Shadow Art?”

Deception also has shadow-step, which isn’t stealth.

When you use Shadow Refuge, a necromancers scythe comes out of your arm. Necromancers steal life, so you could say or argue that maybe “Shadow Arts.” the Art of Shadow (Deception.) also has some necromancy in it? It also heals you as well.

In my opinion, it makes sense that Shadow Arts has a Life-stealing trait in it.

evilapprentice.6379:

Grimwolf.7163:

Not good reasons…

You obviously haven’t tried the build I’m currently running.

Two of the mandatory Minor traits and over half the Major traits rely completely on entering Stealth to get their effect, and the other Minor trait puts you into stealth.
If you go into Shadow Arts without focusing on Stealth, you’re wasting a hell of a lot of traits, and there’ll always be better ways you could be doing it.

And if you’re taking a dagger off-hand on top of it without using much stealth, that’s just full-blown insane.

Unless of course your aiming for a venom share build. I’m not claiming there are dozens upon dozens of reasons to go into SA without relying on stealth, but there’s at least 1 very good reason. The venom share build I’m running at the moment brings strong group support (via venoms and powerful regen on heal), strong survivability (extremely so for a thief), good consistent damage, and some burst (via venom share and pets). The spec absolutely wouldn’t work without SA, and stealth is again the absolute lowest priority on my list in 85% of fights (it of course comes in handy at times).

In addition, flanking strike is infinitely superior to PW, and though I do miss headshot, dancing dagger has its uses – hence the dagger OH.

Grimwolf.7163:

Not good reasons…

You obviously haven’t tried the build I’m currently running.

Grimwolf.7163:

Daecollo.9578:

What if your not a stealth thief? Should non-stealth thieves just be ignored?

…So you’re trying to advocate a build that goes into Shadow Arts WITHOUT using stealth? Why don’t you put 30 points into Trickery and never use Steal while you’re at it.

I’ve currently got 30 points in SA (Running a venom share build) and with S/D CnD is my absolute lowest priority skill – If I use it once in a battle, that’s about it. I also run Withdraw and no stealth utils. So there are reasons for going full SA without really caring about stealth.

Adaneshade.2409:

Wiser with Age.3714:

Last I checked, the damaging portion of Leeching Venoms was the only thing that changed. It used to be a flat damage value until it was changed to be based off of +Power. Now you need to invest in +Power for the dps output of the LV proc and you’d still need to invest in +Healing for the healing output of the LV proc.

This could be the case. Will have to test further.

So I assume we’re questioning the 1:1 ratio of damage and healing?

Taril.8619:

evilapprentice.6379:

When you look at the specifics, it’s pretty easy to see that a necro’s condition removal is much stronger than a thiefs (And rightly so IMO…its a necromancer)

It essentially comes down to:

Necro removes large numbers of Conditions

vs

Thieves have much more spammable removal skills (Hell, the Remove Conditions on/during stealth does much more than most of the Necro’s removals, due to it can be spammed and whilst in stealth it’s much less likely that conditions are being applied (Since attacks that require a target like Necro Sceptre #1, Necro’s Blood is Power, Necro’s Deathly Swarm, Mesmer’s Sceptre #3 etc)

Considering the time it takes for most classes to get up conditions (Aside from Thief, but they generally apply 1 maybe 2 conditions) the repeated small condition removals becomes really powerful (Especially when you combine them, so stuff like Withdraw to remove all Cripple/Chill/Immobilize to leave other skills such as the on stealth removal to be sure to take off the damaging conditions)

Their on stealth condition removal is by far the best condition removal they have – if you want to rely on stealth and have 10 points in SA with a specific trait slotted – not all of us want to do that. Their “On heal” removes are good as well, but narrowly targeted. Necro’s remove a large number of conditions, regardless what specific condition it is – that’s the key there. Thieves have limited options when it comes to removing anything that isn’t burn/bleed/poison and cripple/chill/immob. Confusion, blind, weakness – these have to be removed by our general removals (Shadow return, on stealth condition drop, signet of agility)

In addition, a number of the Necro’s skills aren’t just removal, but also a transfer – in combat, thats much stronger. You didnt just get rid of Bleed, Burning and Blind, you applied them to your target.

Taril.8619:

Daecollo.9578:

Your comparing two different classes.

I’m also comparing similar traits, just like you’re basing your suggestion on another classes trait.

Necromancers have almost double the health of the thief and much more condition removal.

While Necromancers have 80% more base health than a thief (18k base compared to 10k base) they also have limited dodging and evasion capabilities, meaning they’re forced to take damage and try to heal up. They also have an entire trait line that’s based around life stealing, having another class out do the majority of their line with no less than a 5 point trait would be unacceptable.

On the topic of condition removal:

Necromancer:

• Consume Conditions – 25 second cooldown
• Well of Power – 60 second cooldown
• Deathly Swarm – 18 second cooldown
• Putrid Mark – 25 second cooldown
• Plague Signet – 60 second cooldown
• Spiteful Removal – 10 second cooldown (Requires a kill)
• Fetid Consumtion – 10 second cooldown per minion (Will transfer it to a minion rather than dissipating it)

Thief:

• Shadow Step – 50 second cooldown
• Roll for Initiative – 60 second cooldown
• Signet of Agility – 30 second cooldown
• Infiltrator’s Strike – No cooldown (Costs 5 initiative in total)
• Hide in Shadows – 30 second cooldown
• Withdraw – 15 second cooldown
• Shadow’s Embrace – No cooldown (1 removed upon stealthing and 1 removed every 3 seconds you remain stealthed)
• Fleet of Foot – 10 second cooldown

… Lets be fair here.

On the topic of condition removal:

Necromancer:

• Consume Conditions – 25 second cooldown – Removes all conditions
• Well of Power – 60 second cooldown – Converts 1 condition to a boon every sec for 5s
• Deathly Swarm – 18 second cooldown – Transfers 3 conditions to target
• Putrid Mark – 25 second cooldown – Another Condition transfer (not sure the number of conditions affected though )
• Plague Signet – 60 second cooldown – Transfers all conditions to a target
• Spiteful Removal – 10 second cooldown (Requires a kill) – Lose 3 Conditions
• Fetid Consumtion – 10 second cooldown per minion (Will transfer it to a minion rather than dissipating it) – 1 condition per 10s per minion.

Thief:

• Shadow Step – 50 second cooldown – 3 condition On return
• Roll for Initiative – 60 second cooldown – Removes Cripple, chill and Immob
• Signet of Agility – 30 second cooldown – Removes 1 condition, 600 radius
• Infiltrator’s Strike – No cooldown (Costs 5 initiative in total) – removes 1 condition on return
• Hide in Shadows – 30 second cooldown – Removes bleed, burn and poison
• Withdraw – 15 second cooldown – Removes cripple, chill and immb
• Shadow’s Embrace – No cooldown (1 removed upon stealthing and 1 removed every 3 seconds you remain stealthed)
• Fleet of Foot – 10 second cooldown – removes crippled and weakness on dodge.

When you look at the specifics, it’s pretty easy to see that a necro’s condition removal is much stronger than a thiefs (And rightly so IMO…its a necromancer)

Adaneshade.2409:

evilapprentice.6379:

Adaneshade.2409:

Damage and heal are a 1:1 ratio

That’s what I thought, but then I thought it was silly that +healing power would contribute to damage in that manner. I guess I was wrong.

Right, it’s affected by power, not healing power as of a patch not long after release. (Not certain if might scales it up, but i think it does.)

I’ll have to test later today, but I believe healing power still affects it (though I do remember the patch change your talking about).

I’m assuming you’re using a soldiers ammy? If so, Soliders + 30 points in DA puts your power much higher than mine (I’m at around 1800 not counting weapons), yet my venom procs at 578, and yours at 415. There may have been some might stacks involved, but I dont believe they could account for a 163 point difference. (Plus your testing probably also includes those might stacks)

Adaneshade.2409:

Damage and heal are a 1:1 ratio

That’s what I thought, but then I thought it was silly that +healing power would contribute to damage in that manner. I guess I was wrong.

Adaneshade.2409:

evilapprentice.6379:

Adaneshade.2409:

I run a 30/0/30/0/10 build in tPvP using S/D + SB. Works REALLY well. Funny thing is, the build doesn’t work as well in hotjoins because it relies on having allies intelligent enough to make use of the venoms you’re giving them; but in tournaments, its simply nuts.

Yeah, all the personal regen from my trait choices and Dwyana runes make the spec a bit more solo oriented (though it still contributes in an organized team). I like the mix – I don’t absolutely rely on a coordinated team to take advantage of the spec, but it contributes almost as well as 30/0/30/10/0 does .One less venom trigger isn’t that big a loss IMO. Also, the loss of the rock dog is well mitigated by the -insane- regen you have access to (14s of 288HPS if you get hit with 5 bleeds, 7s when you heal to you and all allies in range, 5% chance for 14s On being hit, 14s at 75% HP plus burning/poison/bleed cleanse)

Indeed it does. With my power I proc lifesteals at about 415. So that extra venom application works out nicely for an additional heal plus I get that 10% bonus damage from the 25 pt minor which really helps since my crit is rather low. However, I do see how your build provides more overall solo ability.

With my current healing power, I’m getting 578 health per trigger (I am honestly unaware of how the damage works in comparison to healing, I’ve never run this much +healing with venom share). the 10% bonus damage loss does hurt (as I do absolute crap damage for a theif without leeching venoms), but the insane amount of regen makes up for it IMO- sharing regen on heal is also pretty nice, considering how much damage and healing you already share with Aura, and nearly 300HPS with regen is pretty solid.

Grimwolf.7163:

Do any other classes by this point really have nearly so bad a downed state as the Thief?
I’ve known for a while that the #3 skill was terrible for literally anything but stopping a stomp in PvP (compare that to the Warrior or Ranger’s self rez), and the #1 attack does terrible damage. But I’ve recently realized just how bad the #2 is as well. First of all, the only thing it’ll do for you AT ALL in PvE is get you out of a boss’ AoE so you take a little less damage (you don’t even move far). But in PvP, at least a quarter of the time it fails to even let me avoid a stomp.
Why? Because one of two things will usually happen; either the botched up downed-state camera will prevent me from targeting a spot on the ground far enough away in time (since it has a very low range, leaving a somewhat small viable target between being too close to actually avoid the stomp and too far to successfully trigger it), or it will just straight up fail to move me where it should have because I get stuck on a bump in the terrain and I get stomped anyway.
These abilities seriously need to be looked at.

PvP Wise, I literally can’t remember a single time where a rock or other terrain feature prevented me teleporting the correct distance – though the camera is occasionally an issue.

Adaneshade.2409:

I run a 30/0/30/0/10 build in tPvP using S/D + SB. Works REALLY well. Funny thing is, the build doesn’t work as well in hotjoins because it relies on having allies intelligent enough to make use of the venoms you’re giving them; but in tournaments, its simply nuts.

Yeah, all the personal regen from my trait choices and Dwyana runes make the spec a bit more solo oriented (though it still contributes in an organized team). I like the mix – I don’t absolutely rely on a coordinated team to take advantage of the spec, but it contributes almost as well as 30/0/30/10/0 does .One less venom trigger isn’t that big a loss IMO. Also, the loss of the rock dog is well mitigated by the -insane- regen you have access to (14s of 288HPS if you get hit with 5 bleeds, 7s when you heal to you and all allies in range, 5% chance for 14s On being hit, 14s at 75% HP plus burning/poison/bleed cleanse)

I actually like 20/0/30/20/0 for PvP with the clerics/soldiers gem – Residual venoms is kind of a kittenty reason to go 30 points in DA IMO. Running Dwanya runes and Pain response, you have strong access to long lasting regen (288 hps) on top of the high toughness and hard hitting/healing venoms. Running S/D helps with the lack of a stunbreaker, but when you get stunned in D/P it does suck to get focused down because you’re not running a separate stunbreaker.

Honestly feels like a “tanking” spec for thief that can actually win a fight by attrition – more testing required though.

Its also kind of shocking to watch targets melt when you share spider venom with 3 thief NPC’s.