Rapid Fire NOT IS a burst skill, this skill need to have a shorter channel to be considered burst damage.
This is silly.. where do you suddenly draw the line? What, 3 seconds is burst but not 4.5 seconds? I’ll agree to disagree with this bit.
Spirits in WvW groups??? they die 1/2 sec after you cast the skill.
call of the wild have a long cool down, compared to warrior horn (warriors everywhere)
Spirits can actually be pretty hardy, but they were mentioned as an option for team utility.. whether you want to bring them into WvW or not is another matter.
Empathic bond oh yeah, we need to use 30 points to have a cleanse, but your pet must be ALIVE, and have 10 sec cd, so, is completely random, you CANT choose when use your cleanse.
The wilderness survival trait line is already very good and you should probably spec at least 10-20 pts into it for most any build. What’s a few points more at that stage? Not to mention that 3 conditions removed every 10 seconds, whether on demand or not, is still pretty good. Throw in sigil of renewal and it’s 4, perhaps even skewed with 3 conditions then 1 condition every 5 seconds.
As for my WvW build, I actually run something like 20/20/30/0/0, mostly raw damage with some bunker qualities. I sometimes try to put 5 points into nature magic for the regeneration. I like to roam and skirmish with players, that’s my preferred play style.
I’d like to introduce you guys to Arenanet. This is something I learned about them during the years of balancing efforts aimed at Guild Wars 1.
Not every skill will be useful or totally useful in this case(since we use the passive just fine). They will even intentionally nerf skills, while buffing others, to change which skills are in meta and keep play styles from becoming stagnant.
6-10k? 15-20k? Remember this is damage over 5 seconds. Damage that stops your auto attack. That’s not burst. That’s effectively what every other class in the game can do over the same time frame with their basic #1 attack on auto. That’s not burst…
Yes it is burst and it’s far more reliable than the longbow’s auto attack for doing damage. I guarantee you I could dodge your long range shots all game while still nailing you with rapid fire(it can be used on the move, btw). Now if you want to argue that burst needs to be a single packet of damage.. I guess hundred blades isn’t burst, volley isn’t burst, etc.
Greatsword has a single damaging attack in maul. Stuns only from behind and is only a brief daze otherwise. And a range closer that deals low damage. There’s really no getting around the simple fact that Greatsword is a support weapon. It can’t hold its own in at anything. Without a trait to swap weapons more often, it doesn’t really compliment anything.
How is it a support weapon? It’s like most ranger weapons, being a mix of damage and utility. This gives the ranger the ability to perform a number of tasks without team mates spec’d for dedicated roles or having to swap weapons. For instance, I could block your ranged attacks with counterattack, swoop in to cover ground, use maul and auto attack a bit.. then interrupt your heal with a hilt bash once I notice the animation.
And I also chuckled a little when you list utility this class provides and yet you provide none of it…
You mean I don’t use much of it in WvW? That’s because I prefer to roam there using a self sufficient build rather than team support. I use all the things I mentioned elsewhere.
You enjoy this class, I’m happy for you. You also play a condi bunker build which is the only viable way this class can be built. And from the sounds of it you only roam, which is the only thing this class excels at.
Actually I think Ranger condition spec is awful.. just plain awful. I use raw damage and a few bunker traits, more of a hybrid build.
Rapid Fire is not real burst. It’s about as strong as our max range shot. Its value is providing reliable damage at short range.
Rapid Fire is real burst and can hit upwards of 6-10k without much trade off. It’s very similar to Volley on the Warrior’s Rifle.
Maul is great burst. The problem is you’re then stuck in a awful weapon for damage if maul misses (which is quite often given its animation) or doesn’t kill the target.
Well since you seem to be talking about WvW, I think the Greatsword is the ideal melee weapon for this purpose. You get a stun, some burst, blocks and most importantly you get a solid gap closer in swoop which I think is absolutely crucial for maneuvering the wide open spaces in WvW.
The only real condi cleanse available to this class is healing spring, which is an awful condi cleanse because it’s tied to our heal. Empathic Bond isn’t good for burst clearing and needs a 30pt trait. Signet relies on a pet for the active.
I actually don’t use Healing Spring in WvW because I like to move around a lot. Empathic Bond is well worth it and that trait combined with Signet of Renewal provides excellent passive condition removal. Now, Rangers don’t really have anything in terms of immediate bulk condition removal a la the Warrior’s Mending skill. You could go for Runes of Lyssa but Ranger elite skills have long cooldowns. That much I would agree with but it doesn’t seem to matter in the scheme of things.
Spirits are awful in WvW. Healing Spring is all we bring. Horn, really?
As I mentioned I don’t bring Healing Spring but while I don’t use Warhorn for WvW either, it’s still perfectly viable team utility. I do in fact use it for bunker/support builds in some PvE.
Burst damage.
Rapid Fire and Maul. Maul can be further boosted by the Moment of Clarity trait if you precede it with Hilt Bash and a ’rupt.
Condition cleanse.
Signet of Renewal, Healing Spring, Empathic Bond trait
Between those tools and a set of Melandru’s runes I rarely if ever worry about conditions in PvP of any sort. You can also pick up a Sigil of Purity/Generosity if that’s not enough for you.
Group utility.
Healing Spring(Regen, condition removal, 10 second water field)
Call of the Wild(group wide Swiftness/Fury/Might)
Spirits(damage, utility, heals)
It’s also of note that tanky pets can distract foes in PvE
Functional pets.
Well ok, pets need work for sure.. but they are sometimes still serviceable. I make good use of bears in PvE.
decent, decent and decent, is a good description, jake of all trades master of none, a DECENT roamer thief or mesmer can wipe the floor with a ranger.
Sorry, but I don’t have this problem.
Both are ranger weapons so they offer a rounded selection of skills.. damage, control and defense. Some pros and cons of both;
Shortbow
+an accurate, fast activating auto attack skill that provides sustained DPS and a little damage over time
+poison(reduced healing, some DoT) but as with all fanning skills the application is suspect, mostly it’s good at point blank range to your target
+a modest snare with crippling shot
-900 unit range limiting use to skirmishing and duels, absolutely terrible if your target decides to kite you.
-nil AoE unless you count the piercing arrows trait but that requires foes to line up for you.
Longbow
+trait allows for excellent range(1500 units) making it a must have weapon for rangers in WvW
+great burst damage with rapid fire which does fair damage even if a few shots miss in the process
+excellent defensive utility that includes stealth and a strong knock back
+some AoE with barrage and perhaps a tiny bit more if you trait piercing arrows. nothing to write home about, though
-awful auto attack that is slow to activate and very inaccurate
-no sustained damage to keep the pressure on your target
-because it’s a bit clumsy it’s not very good in tight spaces
That’s it in a nutshell.
Ranger in WvW is dead, 90% of all groups/zergs/blobs are necros,guardians or warriors, and thieves or mesmers are better roamers than rangers.
I see plenty of rangers roaming about. It’s perfectly suited for this. It’s very survivable, it has gap closers, decent CC and decent damage. What more could you want?
It’s a pretty potent trait because it’s basically unstrippable, 100% uptime vigor for a measily 5 pts in a trait line. So I could see why it’s the focus of a class balance, but I always thought of it as one of the upsides to playing ranger and it feels necessary in a way. Maybe instead of nerfing it, it should be moved up to master to require more of an investment.
When it comes to any form of PvP, Shortbow is better because attack are performed instantly, when LB AA needs over 0.5 second to charge up, making it very easy to break the shoot when target is very close, in result slowing you down and murdering dps.
Sure, shortbow’s damage is more sustained but rapid fire is the best spike skill between both bows and the longbow has an awful lot of utility to help create distance. It’s also a hell of a lot more useful in WvW due to open spaces and keep walls. I actually prefer longbow all around to shortbow in any form of PvP due to the nerf to shortbow’s range… and I see a lot more rangers using it as well.
Well, in the Anet stream showing a guide for rangers the dev said that LB isn’t really effective as you get further into the game, so yeah … they know LB isn’t good and I doubt it will ever change.
Longbow isn’t good in PvE but it’s still a very good weapon in both sPvP and WvW. Initially I used shortbow for skirmishing purposes but the nerf to it’s range really hurt and I’ve since gotten used to using longbow. Coincidentally, longbow is also quite good for long reaches a la the trait and has excellent utility. It’s just very poor at sustained damage with a slow and clumsy auto attack.. that’s all that’s wrong with it.
I think this is a bad idea because the evasion in the auto attack chain makes pressuring with auto attacks a slightly safer affair. I think that’s important because the class isn’t designed to face plant into stuff like warrior or guardian.
More over, if they decide to lengthen the cooldown of swoop, that would equate to removing utility from the GS as a whole. Using the skill as often as possible to move around and close in on/escape foes is more important than some little bit of evasion at the end of it.
I could see having a constant whirl finisher as being a tiny bit useful in PvE where players like to ball up and pile down combo fields but I don’t think it’s worth it.
Saw this note in a LFG post(think it was for CM or some such) and had to laugh. I actually joined the group and said something like “RANGER TIME MY FRIENDS!” before I was booted.
I’ve been fooling around with ranger DPS builds without even going 100% ‘zerker. The damage actually isn’t too bad.
I mostly used sword which has a decent coefficient and a fast attack speed. It is a little clumsy because of the way the auto attack functions, making it difficult to dodge on demand at times, but it’s a decent brainless DPS weapon for a mostly brainless PvE.
Longbow is way too slow and shortbow does too little damage. The axe is interesting but it’s just a tad too slow as well, particularly for single targets. Pets don’t do much, even with proper BM traits. Drakes have a nice F2 skill but sometimes the pet positions wrong and it has a long cooldown. I prefer to use the bear as aggro tank if anything. Pets as a whole feel extremely clunky and I think they should do more damage for the investment required to get anything from them.
All said, though, ranger DPS can be decent enough with a sword and other utility via offhands. Axe is sometimes decent as well. Not sure what the bias is about.
Because of some automatic features of the new party search, my search request was cleared several times and I had to re-enter it. This was mainly due to underleveled players trying to join for a run through TA aetherblade path because the assumption is the path is 55 when it’s actually 80. Unfortunately this appears to trigger the already stingy message suppression system when entering a description.
I realize the whole system is a work in progress so there are unexpected quirks that can affect a user’s experience. Just thought I’d bring this to light.
Thank you, sir.
Does anyone have any concrete information on how this works?
10 pts seems relatively small compared to the heavy investment required for carrying extra supply but it all depends on the chance.
The limited time offer tools might be a fairly obvious sales ploy to some of us but it’s also reasonable that Arenanet look for ways to make money from micro transactions and sustain development as well as pay for maintaining the game.
So when those GW1 fans are throwing rocks at GW2 fans and bashing them with “measuring stick” – that’s OK. But when GW2 fans are saying they don’t care, that’s somehow “spitting in the face”? What’s wrong with this picture?
LoL. I think what’s wrong with this picture is exactly what you stated.. you don’t care. I played GW1 extensively so I have a fine appreciation for the GW1 GvG format(currently, Arenanet doesn’t even know what made it good, either they had an amazing first development team or it was dumb luck) and as a consequence I can really see where GW1 fans are coming from when they laugh off GW2 GvG. It’s just one of those things.
I’m not glazing over anything, the point is, I personally (and those who didn’t play GW1) just do not accept this “measuring stick” as something meaningful. All this “certified, franchise tag carrying sequel” talk doesn’t hold water for me either.
Well sure, there’s a certain ignorance there but that’s why I’m trying to make you understand why bringing up GvG at all is going to immediatly warrant GW1 comparisons. You can spit in the face of GW1 fans all you want but it won’t change anything.
We just do not care what it was in some other game as many of us didn’t even play it. We enjoy this “watered down”, as you’ve put it, combat system that frees you from ancient trinity cage and unholy GCD, and works at your speed, not its own.
I’m pretty sure it still works at it’s own speed and it’s arguable that the trinity was ever a “cage” or not. In fact I’m pretty sure that more dedicated player roles would do wonders to promote team play and keep people interested in GW2 PvP. It’s just a marketing ploy man, you been had.
As for GW1 being “just some other game” you are glazing over the issue that this game is the certified, franchise tag carrying sequel and GW1 is the only measuring stick. Anytime you bring up something as important as “GvG”, even if it’s just in name only, you are willingly bringing the GW1 contrasts into the conversation.
Doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t try. The sPvP forum is already on fire(maybe ashes and dust at this point) and sPvP itself isn’t interesting/rewarding(as it was already proven with numbers). The PvP part of the game needs anything possible ATM.
You can dodge with “But you just don’t understand the game mode.”, “ur bad l2p”, “WvW/PvE guy, get out!” and similar stuff but it’s not going to get you anywhere.
In my opinion it needs a massive overhaul. It needs bunker counters to sway people from turtle builds, more team cohesion to promote team play, more variety to promote different styles of play and a more varied experience, etc. I can foresee more bunker breaker abilities because bunkers are a little ridiculous right now and are low skill cap builds, beyond that.. it’s hard to say what arenanet is willing to address. They’ve already shown the GW1 crowd that the new development team doesn’t understand what made GW1 PvP great… so why should we expect them to bring GW2 PvP up to par? I expect a pretty casual experience when it’s all said and done.
GW1 GvG : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2mqkeocrPw
GW2 Zerg vs Zerg: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3y601EvDD0k
If you think this reinforces your point – it’s not. If there’s too much happening on the screen too fast for you in WvW GvGs, it doesn’t mean there’s no depth to that.
I could on the same note say that IMO GW1 GvG video above looks extremely bleak, boring and lacking dynamics, but I’m sure there’s much more to it than meets untrained eye. Same with WvW GvG.
I’m sorry but there really, really isn’t anywhere close to the degree of depth and strategy in something like “WvW GvG” as there is in GW1 GvG. The main reason for this is the combat system itself, although there is far more movement and it’s very frenetic(“more arcade” as you said) it’s just not as in-depth as GW1’s and that’s especially obvious in team play. If you had a grasp of what GW1 PvP was all about, granted a lot of players don’t including some ex-GW1 players who didn’t really focus on PvP, you would never try to draw a comparison to anything GW2 offers—player constructed or not. This game was simplified, watered down if you will, to appeal to a broader audience and will never, ever live up to the quality of PvP in it’s predecessor.
I see this game as both a just plain good PvP and PvE experience. I don’t see a slant.. I see an attempt to satisfy fans of both play styles and players of all demographics.
Unfortunately that means nothing is particularly great.
If you guys think GW2 is a great PvE game as far as solo play is concerned, I would agree with you but if you think the cooperative(team based) PvE is great.. you have completely missed the boat on a decade of excellent cooperative PvE focused mmorpgs—to the extent that that’s all they were ever good at.
As much as I think PvP itself needs more variety, I’m not sure it could ever work with the GW2 combat system.. at least not in the fasion we’re used to. 5v5 would probably be the absolute maximum and even then we’re talking about stand fights(if they can make a flag stand relevant without morale/dp) that will be a mass of particle effects and bunker galore. Essentially we’ll have 25 minute fights that don’t really go anywhere because of bunker builds, a lack of counters for bunkers and a lack of cohesive team play to get something accomplished since gw2 is more about individual play and sustaining one’s self. It won’t be near as interesting to watch with the lack of depth in the game.
BTW, why can’t another “game type” be lumped in with sPvP and not “take away” from it? Isn’t sPvP supposed to be the controlled format that’s isolated from PvE stats, buffs and consumables? Isn’t that what we want to operate from within with competitive PvP in mind?
Conquest is the problem. You see the heave bunker thing go away and face more diverse teams in deathmatch.
While I agree that Conquest shouldn’t be the only game mode available, I’m not convinced that bunker builds will go away until we have a mode that forces players to press a kill in a very short amount of time and even then I’m not fully convinced we won’t see bunker builds that can handle the task.
It really is a vastly simplified game on both ends to some degree because the gameplay mechanics are so much simpler. You can move in three dimensions and so you can jump over and work across terrain(JPs and such)… that’s the only new dynamic.
It feels like my legos were downgraded to duplo.
There needs to be more counters for bunker builds.
Nearly every style of play had a counter in GW1 and in this game there is clearly a lack of counters for defense heavy builds. This leads to stalling(oft used for capture points) and battles of attrition that last far longer than they should because players are spec’ing pure defense for the most part. I can’t blame people, it works.. but it’s ridiculous that you can’t truly counter it without just bringing a bunker build of your own.
This is problematic as is numerous other issues i.e. poor targeting(this is why people play spirit rangers), team play(combo fields? that’s it?), particle effect spam(i need to see visual cues) and lack of variety(more arenas besides conquest).
Please fix your game. It would do wonders for replay value and the longevity of the game in general. I’m usually quite skeptical when it comes to new games but I was sold on GW1 and gave Anet the benefit of the doubt that the sequel would be just as good(at least on the PvP side of things). The talk about making it an esport was very enticing for me but in the end this game is not worthy enough to deserve that moniker.
There are two problems I’ve noted in the current meta-game.
The first being targeting issues that stem from too much on-screen action. Players know this is problematic as evidenced by exploiting minion necros and spirit rangers. A ranger with 4 spirits isn’t a coherent strategy for sPvP but it is in the context of targeting issues. The mesmer class mechanic also contributes to this problem to some degree but I realize that they’re supposed to be confusing to fight.
If these types of builds could be handicapped in some way or targeting could be improved(we can usually tell which entity to target btw, it’s just that targeting is another story), that would go a long way. Another thing to consider is scaling down particle effects that both inhibit targeting and make it tougher to see visual cues(animations) from opponents.
The second issue is bunkering. In GW1 I felt like there was a counter for almost everything but in this game bunker builds reign supreme. It’s all about attrition and stalling you out which they can achieve in spades. It’s not particularly fun and tends to be kind of easy with all the passive and automated defensive moves many classes have access to.
I don’t know if this is WAI but I think it takes away from the game. It would be nice to see some armor ignoring raw damage that could counter such builds because boon removal is just too infrequent unless you build an entire necro around it and even then it’s awkward.
WvW is a very bad place for GvG. It needs to be controlled a la sPvP arenas to be competitive and it certainly wouldn’t hurt to have the automated tournament of GW1 along with pre recorded matches to observe.
The closest thing to GvG right now is legacy of the foefire but even that is a far cry from GW1 GvG.
While some players are looking for Arenanet to add a “gear treadmill” to keep them interested, I am adamantly opposed to such an addition(and would likely stop playing if one was implemented). I feel a game should be played because it’s an enjoyable experience. If you need developers to constantly entice you with better gear than you might want to question as to whether you actually enjoy the game you’re playing all that much. So, to keep things enjoyable I think GW2 needs a bit more depth and a bit more variety(particularly on the PvP end).
I think more depth can be achieved with more team cohesion. Combo fields are nice and you can certainly work in tandem to achieve a goal but characters still feel a bit isolated from each other. Ally micro(skill targeting) and supposedly “the trinity” have been removed from the transition of GW1 to GW2. This unfortunately has the net effect of making characters more independent and less team based. Individual classes still do some things better than others but they don’t especially rely on others. I wish I had some insight on this suggestion but I do feel another layer of team based mechanics should be added. This would not only provide something new to play with but give players more of a sense of team accomplishment. It is a social game after all.
Something else to think about is adding more depth to PvE instances. I spent a fair amount of time playing LotRO which, for the most part, had fantastic instance play. The boss and “trash” encounters typically had some sort of gimmick to overcome and it made the experience both more challenging and more interesting. The 12 man raids in LotRO offer sophisticated team play and difficulty in spades. In GW2, a common “boss mechanic” is just an absurd amount of health. Some people will disagree but I find Giganticus Lupicus to be one of the best boss fights this game has to offer. Take a page from the WoW clones here, I don’t think it would hurt and you would definitely bring in a lot of PvE players who initially wrote this game off with that style of content.
Lastly, I would like to see more sPvP variety.. something other than conquest. I’m sure this is coming whether I suggest it or not, however. Just.. the sooner, the better.
Also, thought I’d add that carrot chasing(incrementally better stats) is sort of a relic from single player RPGs where the whole game is about progression to a climactic boss fight finale. With the advent of MMOs, RPGs are more about plateaued gameplay and the “end game” than ever before. I think we’re going to see a lot less carrot chasing in the future, it’s an old and tired model.
There are a few problems with continual stat increases.
The first problem I can see from the outside looking in is that you will create further disparity between newly 80 characters, characters with exotics, characters with ascended gear, etc. Some PvE content simply won’t be balanced for the full gradient of gear available. That causes problems for developers who would then have to make content that is either miraculously challenging and accessible for all level 80 characters, scaled or intended for each(usually leading to obsolescence). The disparity would be even worse for players in WvW who have to contend with opponents who may have substantially better statistics.
The second problem is a doozie. Arenanet has long held a developer philosophy that time spent playing(other than improvement through practice) should not translate to success in game. When they introduced ascended gear last fall there was quite a backlash from part of the fan base that expected them to adhere to this philosophy. Ascended gear, in my opinion, doesn’t constitute nearly as bad of a “gear treadmill” as the system of gear acquisition found in other games like WoW or LotRO.
As I mentioned, there is a portion(fairly large one at that) of the user base that supports the idea of using cosmetics as rewards instead of incrementally better statistics. I would count myself within that group. I would much rather play the game because it has excellent replay value and I enjoy it rather than chase a carrot that tangibly improves my character.
bumping for a bit more exposure
Instead of being reset I noticed my warrior’s sPvP traits were redistributed and changed around slightly. Some points were redistributed and some unaltered(by the update) traits were changed to other unaltered traits. The traits as they were changed wouldn’t have made much sense and nothing else seems out of place on the account but I just thought I’d run this by the forums in case I might be overlooking a potential breach.
I’m a little nervous because I just played the toon last night and I’ve been so happy with my current build I haven’t changed it up in ages.
Now, I don’t think these things would translate very well into GW2, as the pace is just much to different. But the shift from chess-like strategy to FPS-like strategy, as well as the causes for this shift, should be noted.
I don’t expect GW2 to change much at all in the game mechanic department. My post was just an outline of things I find wrong with the PvP gameplay. The list is actually about ten fold what I managed to type but you have to be careful about writing an essay on a gaming forum. I expect GW2 will always be a messy and frenetic PvP experience with fairly shallow team play, but that probably won’t serve it well in the long run.
Like I said earlier, however, you should just give up here. As you have probably gathered by now, what’s left of this game’s community is more likely to attack your ability to play rather than attempt to understand where you are coming from. And it’d be foolish to think that the developers would do absolutely anything with what you have to say.
Athletes always claim they don’t read or listen to sports media and that probably holds true during specific times(personal crisis, injury, important play-off series) but every once in a while they give out a little bit of information that implies they actually do pay attention from time to time. I figure video game developers are about the same. They probably don’t bother reading through many forum posts because well, you can’t please everyone.. but I bet they do read forum posts on occasion. Artists want people to like their work(developers are artists, imho), not gaff at it while they sit in blissful ignorance because they don’t want to be subjected to criticism. Whether this post has been read? hard to say, but that won’t deter me.
As for players who make knee-jerk responses, there’s an old addage about listening to criticism. Never take it too seriously because it’s probably a half-truth but then never take praise too seriously either because the same holds true. So I wager I’m a fairly decent player, sometimes above average, but then some of the players responding here are probably less than average at managing a problem I outlined. They probably think they’re better than they are or that it’s just some clever and challenging mechanic they need to grapple.. instead of just, a bad design choice.
I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again. Anet tried to be unique by attracting every audience under the sun and instead they ended up with a game that feels familiar to everyone while abandoning the most unique game concept I’ve found, GW1.
I didn’t want to focus on this, but I essentially agree with you. It appears that Arenanet is trying to appeal to a broader audience and that’s the best choice from a business standpoint. Like it or not, the bottom line is important in the video game industry.
Two things to keep in mind, though.
GW1 was no sleeper. It sold several million copies and was very popular from release to probably 4 years in before it started to taper off because well, Arenanet stopped any major development for it. To be fair, it might also have reached a sort of “creative ceiling” from a design standpoint. I’m not sure there’s much more they could have added to it without it feeling over saturated.
Also, I can’t rule out that the developers thought they were making a superior product and were just plain wrong.
sure, a game has many flaws, but having to face your target in a MMORPG is not a flaw
So by your logic, it wouldn’t be a flaw if we had to manually aim at our targets and there was no targeting system at all.
this is not the game for you then, nor is any other mmorpg, sorry mate
Actually I’m still playing it and I still enjoy some aspects of it, although I’m not married it to and I’m open to the idea of playing something better if it comes along. Lesson learned from a long history as a gamer, never get too partial to a game(as many mmo players irrationally are).. you might just be disappointed and you might just be depriving yourself of a better gaming experience, elsewhere. These things aren’t black and white. A game can have flaws and you can still enjoy it but there’s no reason to overlook those flaws as if the game were your own child. GW1 had flaws and most every other game I’ve played and enjoyed over the years had it’s own share of problems. Planetside 1 comes to mind, that game was a mess.. ask any honest person who played it at launch.
If everyone is silent about GW2’s flaws then nothing will get fixed. If I’m silent about my desire to see a new pc title using GW1’s combat system then I’m not helping it come to fruition. That doesn’t mean I can’t reconcile the problems and keep playing GW2.. although I do worry that, as the thread title implies, it’s just too shallow to keep people interested.
it’s a nuisance to have to be situationally aware of your surroundings to such a degree that you have to actually look at your opponent?
how is it a pitfall to require time critical skills such as camera control and positioning?
is that not part of the challenge of the game?
is the game too challenging for you?
where does that put the pitfall, then, Harry?
This is not a FPS game.
We have a third person view where we can not only see behind us .. but we can also keep things targeted that are behind us .. and even target things that are off-screen. So it doesn’t follow that we need to point our camera at these things, it’s just a mechanic that was added in(since GW1) and it doesn’t contribute anything to game play. All it is, is an extra step you have to take to use your skills. GW1 proved quite nicely that you don’t need this extra step at all.
If this was a FPS game then I’d be up in arms that we can track things that are off-screen, but it’s not.
so, what you are saying, is that you want the game to play for you? just learn to play, every other mmorpg “forces” you to face your target manually to cast spells.
I don’t expect arenanet to change this mechanic at all, it’s there for the long run.. but I do prefer a game where this pitfall is avoided. It’s neither fun, nor adds anything interesting to gameplay.. it’s just a nuisance.
As far as the entire of idea of camera movement being a detraction I would substantially disagree. The range of movement and LoS requirements make GW2 PvP far more face paced because it’s more taxing than most other MMOs. I’m not too sure how being forced to center your character for an attack is such a bad thing. Without it, GW2 would simply be boring as hell. Maybe I don’t understand what you’re referencing but the idea of removing character centering is insane.
It’s actually pretty common.. it was in most every other mmorpg I played except GW1. It was one of the things I loved about GW1 because you were third person anyway, you could see people at all angles… so that you would have to pivot the camera to get LoS never made much sense to me. It’s a joy to move your character one direction and have an automated 180 degree spin to execute a skill and then proceed moving. I can’t tell you how many times I played ranger in GW1 and saw an ele behind me about to use a spell that was dangerous. With a punch of a key my character spun, fired off an interrupt and I kept on moving.
Under GW2’s system, assuming disruption was still an important mechanic(it’s not), I would have to notice it and spin my camera all the way around to view a character I already have targeted(and is likely still on-screen, mind you).. then I could fire off that interrupt and then it might be too late as well. Afterward, I’d have to spin my camera back around to move the proper direction.
And positioning DOES matter. I can’t believe you’re hinting otherwise. If you have played this game in a group you’d understand that often times the team that wins a fight takes advantage of a mistake in positioning from the opposite team.
It kind of matters but only in a vague sense. The more players around(i.e. WvW) the greater risk you’re taking by mob diving, but in smaller fights(i.e. 5v5) the risk is minimal. There are some classes that seem a bit grounded(someone mentioned Necro) but most classes can be highly mobile.
It was the game play and amazing combat system. There were tons of PvP options. HA, GvG, RA, TA, Codex, HB, AB, FA, and JQ. I played with hundreds of people in PvP in GW1. Not a single one of those players is currently actively playing GW2. They instantly saw what GW2 was upon it’s release.
Yeah, I can empathize with that.. most of my GW1 PvP buddies are not playing this game or have a passing interest in it. I’ve been sticking it out mainly because there’s nothing better on the market and having played GW1 at release I realize how much that game was polished over the years. So I can’t be completely judgmental about GW2, it’s only been out a year, but there are definitely game mechanics that I don’t foresee being changed at all.. mechanics that are sort of a deal breaker for strong competitive PvP into the future.
GW2 was designed from ground zero as a PvE game. That’s the problem. PvP is not a main focus. If you have half a brain you can clearly see that every sPvP addition or announcement is really just fluff to keep the current player base playing.
I disagree with this. I’ve played a number of other mmorpgs and they have something in common.. the PvE end game(not progression and solo content, mind you) is so, so much better than GW2’s. I’m mainly referring to team based instance play. This game just doesn’t have it.. but it does have sPvP which is unique in that it’s controlled and it’s a dedicated PvP format(needs more modes, however) and a very, very solid persistent world PvP format in W3. So I see a lot of balance here. I see more in-depth PvE than GW1 had(save team cohesion, classes just made more sense in GW1 and they worked together better).. but also fairly respectable PvP or at least an attempt at it.
I think the problem is just design philosophy.. like a previous poster mentioned, different developers perhaps?
Bottom line, the PvP will never be as great in GW2 as it was in GW1.
Yes.. but no one will bring us another game like GW1 unless we stay vocal about it.
I am sorry but a lot of the problems that you list in your post are almost non-existent as problems in game to a player who has played for more than a month.
Particularly striking is the fact that you complain about LoS and centering your character with your mouse and how it detracts from your ability to use your other hand to hit keybinds. That is a non-issue like none other.
The nuisance of having to dedicate your mouse hand to spinning the camera to keep LoS is something I think a lot of players probably don’t think about since they didn’t come from GW1 and I did. As a result, I notice it and it does ultimately alter the way you play the game. The main issue is not that it’s slightly less controllable(and it is), the main issue is that the LoS mechanic doesn’t add anything meaningful other than the aforementioned figure skating dance.. which isn’t too important in my book, in fact.. one might argue it’s a detraction.
Then, under the same post, you complain about how easy it is to dodge abilities (dodging weapon abilities are a different story) and how melee has a huge advantage with gap closers (see: Warriors).
I didn’t say melee had a huge advantage. In fact, I think it’s quite the opposite.. melee is at a disadvantage in this game(mainly due to dodging). It is much harder to land melee attacks and hence it’s much harder to land attacks that can’t be spammed and tend to be more important to winning a particular fight(i.e., since you brought up warrior, eviscerate comes to mind). The point about gap closing is that you can’t be tactical about positioning and that no one has to respect position when they can simply leap into a fight, do their business(whether it’s melee focused or not) and leap out. If you don’t understand the relevance of this then you should try playing some organized PvP in a game where positioning matters.
Simply put your diagnoses of why this game has been unsuccessful thus far is incredibly incorrect. It goes hand in hand with the above poster complaining about conquest and downed state. A very large majority of problems that have plagued this game and prevented PvP from taking off have been fixed which is why you’re seeing people come back and tournaments pop up.
Why don’t you try addressing the arguments objectively instead of just stating it’s incorrect?
My gripe isn’t that GW2 is a bad game, it’s not.. my gripe is that it’s a disappointment for people who loved GW1 PvP. It’s a step backward, sorry to say.
As in real life one of the biggest problems in these games are a vast amount of unsociable players or players not able to socialise maybe if they have distractions around them. You can’t avoid distractions that need to be dealt with but just joining in with other players when exploring, have a chat etc isn’t much to ask. And the game needs a proper endgame which right now WvW isnt really right now.
What’s a proper end game? If you’re talking end game as I know it from the WoW-style games, it’s an instance cluster and gear treadmill. This game has dungeons(basically an instance cluster) and ascended gear(basically a gear treadmill). If that’s not enough there are PvP options.. I mean, what are you looking for.. a 12 man raid?
I’ve been mulling over this topic for some time now. I definitely loved GW1’s PvP and greatly anticipated GW2 so I could, presumably, see a new and improved version with an influx of new players.
GW2’s combat system grabbed my attention right away because character movement is very fluid. You can dodge roll and evade nearly anything. There’s a true z-axis and jumping up onto or behind something is now a possibility. In addition to jumping there’s a number of leap and gap closer style moves built into skills that provide a frenetic a movement friendly feel to playing. It’s glued together with the interface responsiveness one came to appreciate in GW1 and I love maneuvering my character in GW2. The improved mobility is the absolute best new feature of GW2’s gameplay. It allows for the zelda-like platforming feel and ultimately things like jumping puzzles.
However I’ve come to realize it also, unexpectedly, takes away from GW2’s competitive PvP. It does this by making it too easy to avoid an incoming attack, an attack a particular class/build might rely on to be affective. In GW1, the closer you were, the harder it was to avoid a projectile(melee was guaranteed). This meant that players had to think twice before commitment to moving in close. In GW2, commitment is a non issue with gap closing moves like Swoop or Ride the Lightning. Your approach can’t be stopped(if anyone even notices) and you’ll likely escape unscathed as well. I think it’s important to note that armor levels mean something when you have to respect moving into enemy territory. In GW2 not only can pretty much any class safely move anywhere within enemy lines but they all have melee weapons as well. Armor seems to be nothing more than a per class balancing mechanism and, while that might be intended, it contributes to making organized team play feel chaotic rather than controlled and tactical.
Speaking of chaos, it’s very difficult to target an opponent when you have clones, minions, pets and a clusterfutz of players all over your screen. You can tab target, though it might take you a century to get the right one, or you could strain and try to twitch your way to the appropriate target by clicking on-screen. GW1 did have moments where there were too many targets on-screen but it was quite a bit easier to ultimately click the target you wanted if you had to. This is mainly because there was no true z-axis and characters moved methodically, almost like a chess board. They were automatically set apart instead of constantly moving through each other. Sometimes less is more.
Something they added to GW2’s gameplay is line of sight. Line of sight means your target has to be on-screen(or at least within a certain angle of your frontal periphery) before you can use your skills on them. This feature adds a new dynamic that forces you to turn your camera to be affective in PvP.. mainly because the other guy is constantly turning his camera too, to break line of sight. It turns combat into what I call “the figure skating dance” common to most FPS games. In essence your character is moving in circles with your opponent across from you. No one really achieves getting behind the other player, you’re just constantly dancing. It looks totally silly in observer mode and has for decades(since doom probably). Not only is this an annoyance but it did something else to gameplay, unintentionally—I would hope. The problem is this, you can’t rest your mouse hand to activate skills on the far end of the skill bar. That’s huge people, I don’t know if many of you realize how much that changed gameplay from GW1 to GW2.
Now, this is already a wall of text so I’ll end it here… but there are other problems, like skill ambiguity(skill meters and disruption was awesome in gw1), lack of skill depth, lack of team cohesion, the list goes on. I get the hunch that arenanet didn’t appreciate the system they had in GW1… guys, this game is much farther from being an esport than your previous installment.
(edited by mooty.4560)
That wasn’t true in Guild Wars 1. I had eight skills and those eight skills were what I had to finish a dungeon with. In some ways that’s a lot less flexible.
That’s one plus for GW2, the addition of an OoC state which allows you to swap skills(and traits, though you can’t refund points) around in most places. However, the skill choices were much broader in GW1. You had a huge pool of skills for each weapon/magic type as well as a number of utility skills which could be further augmented by a secondary class. Some classes could utilize weapons from secondaries very, very well.. rangers with daggers come to mind. You could also play one type of weapon several different ways by the skills you chose to bring. In GW2, your class can only use certain weapons and the skill bars are fixed… there’s pretty much just one way to use a particular weapon without swapping classes. I feel if you really think hard about it(don’t knee jerk), GW1’s skill system was far more flexible and had more depth—and that’s just the skill system.. the stats are a whole ’nother can of worms.
Before someone does knee jerk and say “why don’t you go play GW1!?!?!” you should know that playing and enjoying a game doesn’t mean you need to be biased and treat it like your progeny. I prefer to be honest about these things and GW2 does have some short comings. Not to mention GW1 is pretty stale and basically a ghost town at this stage.. all good things come to an end, GW2 might be your favorite thing ever but it will get old, depopulate, lose it’s luster and you’ll move on.
It’s kind of like…. mmorpgs are less about the gaming and more about a social experience that happens to have some game-like elements. People come on these games to hang out with friends and it even cultivates a sort of high-school mentality where popularity matters and everyone gravitates toward cliques. So it mimics real life in that people want a superior character, statistically and/or cosmetically because somehow in this sort of mmo microcosm, it’s a status symbol and it matters.
I hate to say it but the model of vertical progression is a sign of the times and the reality is even arenanet is using this concept to appeal to the average mmo gamer. I always thought the GW franchise was safe from this mentality, but it’s about the bottom line.. still waiting for an mmorpg made for gamers.
I would agree that if you want to specialize with a single character that getting several sets of ascended gear with different infusions is a nuisance. Some people might welcome the extra grind but personally I don’t like progression and I don’t look forward to making space for everything. I already have 8 bags on my warrior because I bought several sets of armor/trinkets/weapons just to play the class in different ways(support, condi dmg, raw dmg, cc, etc.) How am I to replace all this gear with ascended and then get a version for fractals/wvw/farming and make it all fit(not to mention the huge grind)?
Now to be fair, infusions have minor bonuses but unless anet is planning on putting AR on the WvW infusions then there’s already two distinct sets to acquire without further discussion.
I spent a great deal of time playing GW1 and later a bit of LotRO.
GW1 is a bit like GW2 in that you focus more on cosmetics than exclusive raid-style gear that gives your character very tangible advantages. The difference is that the stats are not on the gear but rather you get a pool of stat points that gets larger as you level. Once you reach max level(a mere 20), you can spend those points how you please and refund them(any outpost and without paying an NPC) as you please. Armor(only 5 pieces, no jewelry) had a few upgrade slots that would provide very minute bonuses but they generally weren’t so important you had to had several sets of armor to do different things.
LotRO is much like WoW and the game revolves around gear acquisition(stats not cosmetics), so I expect this kind of thing in LotRO. I ended up with one character because I hated the prolonged and boring leveling process that gets worse everytime they raise the level cap. This one character had multiple, multiple pieces of gear for adjustment to different roles where needed.
I remember thinking.. GW1’s system is so simple and yet amazingly effective, I don’t need to accrue much gear to do what I want. I was really able to contrast and appreciate a good design.. then came GW2. The need to acquire gear is firmly in place and it has an artificial feeling as if they wanted to control our statistical balance and make gear more of a focal point than in GW1.
So to summarize I guess what I’m saying is that GW2 is artificially forcing importance on gear when we could have just had the simple system GW1 provided. Now I’m sure some folks would say but then what do we aim for? Well at some point progression shouldn’t be important but rather playing the actual game… it’s the moment to moment gameplay that should matter. If I had my way there’d be no leveling.
If the enemies team has 3 rangers(a lot of guild teams use 2 or 3 rangesr at the moment) and you don’t have a ranger(random team) and you lose all the time then it is not balanced.
I understand that it is a team game and you could just take 3 rangers in your own team but not everyone is playing a ranger.
If you want to win at competitive pvp, why would you choose an inferior team build? Sorry but refusing to play a class because you don’t know it well or because you simply don’t like it won’t help you win any competitive pvp matches. If you want any change you better start exploiting what’s supposedly overpowered so arenanet takes notice.
And don’t tell me “you can change classes and builds”. Takes reloading and not everyone is good at every class. And the changing builds in the 1-2 minutes is a pain. Also I don’t think you can change items cause you can’t go back to the mists to buy another item. It always is loading the tournament map(and I’m not taking other stuff with me cause I also play PvE and don’t have much room in my inventory).
Then how do you expect to counter anything you’re having a problem with? The old adage about the definition of insanity comes to mind.. doing the same thing over and over and achieving the same negative result? At this point you need to change things up. Keep making adjustments, whether that be in your approach or your build or even your class. Don’t say.. “well this is too painful, arenanet come change this.”
What I think what makes the ranger easier: Other classes have to attack AND doge, defend. Ranger can let the pet attack so he does not need to attack and can concentrate on defending(and attack a bit since the pet running after the player won’t get every hit… but still very effective in annoying him and slowing him and stuff). Or he can let the pet defend(if the player is stupid enough wasting his time trying to kill the pet which takes a lot of hits even for the dps pets and if you are class cannon) and attack.
Most every player I encounter on a ranger ignores my pet, because pet AI is inferior and the attack rate is slow. You simply can’t stand there and expect the pet to do the work for you, I assure you this is a very bad strategy. The ranger is intrinsically defensive, so the defensive tactics they use take minimal effort because the class is designed to behave this way. That said.. stealth(arenanet’s folly), evasion, stuns and condition spam are all completely viable counters for rangers of any spec. Not to mention, they lack a little punch offensively. Even if you run glass cannon, the returns are minimal.
The ranger is a very mediocre pve class with a more pvp oriented skill set.
It has a lot of good survivability options(evasion, strong endurance, automated defensive boons, pet etc.) combined with a moderately good offense that doesn’t do much in the way of spike damage. The shortbow’s 1 slot(crossfire) is only good because it’s ranged, accurate(compare to warrior longbow for instance) and fires every half second. The damage per packet is low but it’s easily sustained and sort of steadily chips away at foes. So yes, through some attrition, rangers are a strong 1v1 class.. however, they don’t have a lot of counters for stealth and have awful sources of stability that simply can’t be relied on.. so if you can hit them, stun locking a ranger is pretty effective.
As for team support, about the only thing it does is keep itself alive while providing a bit of control through short term stuns(never underestimate concussion shot) and the elite skill ‘entangle.’ Sort of like the ranger in GW1 but to a far lesser degree.
I don’t claim to be mr. expert pvper but I can’t help but feel the ranger might be topping lists for a couple of reasons, 1. parroting, people are sheep and 2. a lot of players are losing 1v1s in random hot join fights. Listen folks, 1v1s are not a measurement of a class’s “OPness.” You’re playing a team game in which, player ability equal, someone could simply spec to counter you.. rock paper scissors, build wars.. these terms ring a bell? What matters is not the outcome of your 1v1, it’s the outcome of your team v team.
I can cite numerous occasions when arenanet nerfed a class or skill in gw1 because of some people crying in low end pvp when they could have just figured out the counters(which were sometimes quite easy if you applied yourself, but i digress). Defy pain warriors come to mind.. oh no, the defy pain warrior is stalling out fort aspenwood, nerf nerf nerf ! arenanet: ok.