Guild Wars 2

Crovax.7854:

SarahWitter.2317:

Reading this thread, we understand your questions and want to share a little information: This set is designed to be a special, exclusive set and therefore it’s a little different than most. There are a couple of other interesting factors that you’ll want to know: The set is available for one ticket. It will remain priced at one ticket into the future, so someone who wants it now doesn’t need to be concerned about it becoming unavailable or about it rising in price in the future. Other sets currently available are not account bound, such as the Cavalier Weapon Set which was recently released at a price of 1 Black Lion Claim Ticket and remains at that price now. In addition, we do intend to continue to offer tradeable sets in the future. If you’d like a preview of the new set, go to your bank wardrobe and filter for “Privateer.” We hope this answers your questions, and thanks for sharing your thoughts.

-Sarah

Why is the set special? Why would we think it’s anything but you testing the waters on how much you can screw over customer before there’s backlash?

That’s the impression it gives me, too. I’d usually say that a company should already know that making something as simple as an item skin a $33-35 cash/800-900g exchange purchase would not be received well, but Anet seems rather bad at predicting player response.

And if these skins were something special, why is that just now being mentioned after player outcry over them? Is that not something that would be pointed out in patch notes/the BL store banners to entice players to buy them?

I’m also fairly sure that most of the backlash against the BL ticket weapons (both this set, and the system in general) would not exist if skins were occasionally added as in-game rewards. Skins are clearly easy enough to produce, seeing that a new set gets pushed out every few weeks. So why does every one of them have to come attached to cash purchases?

Even a 50$ expansion only granted access to a few new sets of weapons (5 I believe, including reclaimed weapons). There has been several times that amount released as BL ticket sets in the fairly short time since HoT’s launch. Players would probably be a lot more accepting of decisions like this is if just 1/5 of those skins were available in some way other than spending gems.

Seems like the simplest solution to this. Thanks for the quick fix.

I’ll be back to working on these two after my usual round of daily activities.

egzius.9031:

Ever been to Octovine? AFKs on the sides of Octovine. Think if 2 Octovines were happening at same time, but only one got rewards, would you still have AFKers risking all they would get? I am just trying to remove all the toxicity from PVE and this is the most efficient way of doing it: by improving the community, making it more competitive.

I can tell you exactly what that would do to the Tarir meta. As soon as one server started pulling ahead, the other would simply stop trying. Those players would then start trying to flood into a new winning server to get rewarded, or just give up entirely. Then all the players in the winning server can just stop trying, because they no longer have anyone competing against them. When the would-be AFKers see that their victory is set, they’ll go right back to AFKing.

If you want to add some meaningful reward or accomplishment to PVE, the way to do that is through content that is actually challenging. This is something we do have already, just in small amounts. But it’s not a concept that works well in open-world pve. You can’t set a high player skill requirement in a situation where you have no control over who you are playing with. It doesn’t force people to get better at the game, it demoralizes everyone to the point where they don’t want to even attempt to play the content.

Two great examples of this we’ve seen already are the original state of the Chak Gerent event and the Marionette boss achievements from season 1. Both put players in a situation where another group of players, at a different location, could easily ruin your chances of being rewarded and getting an achievement. The result is both casual and hardcore players not enjoying the content. The more casual players, or even just those with little experience with the specific event, get yelled at and berated by elititsts. Meanwhile, the hardcore players are frustrated by the fact that despite being at their best, they still fail because someone else didn’t dodge an attack or do some specific action.

The “best” end result from such situations is when the majority of players just start ignoring that content, leaving only the hardcore players and elitists. Then you have a small portion of the playerbase attempting content made for large groups, while the majority of players are left disappointed with a major part of the game. This is why challenging content is better off being left to solo or small group play. Give challenging content to the players that want it, but leave the majority of the game being designed for the majority of the players.

ixon.2496:

“For a limited time, every Black Lion Chest contains an additional Crystallized Magic item. These can be turned in to Priory or Consortium researchers for a reward. Players can choose which.”

I’m guessing this means you can choose who to give it to, not choose a reward. Badly worded, and i’m disappointed by the 1g reward, given that a key costs 40g in converted gold id have preferred if you could collect enough to get a unique skin or mini, atleast that would be interesting.

When I saw the patch notes, that’s the type of reward I was expecting. Some new cosmetic or consumable item. The wording is somewhat misleading, making it appear that we will get a choice of rewards, not just a 2.5% return on the key’s gold value. It’s easy to look up the item and check before buying, but that’s no excuse for the wording in the notes.

Stating that it “can be turned in to Priory or Consortium researchers” already establishes the choice between NPCs. And even that is something of a false choice, aside from a few lines of text from the NPC and the lore/RP aspect of the exchange. There is no functional difference in the ‘choices’.

Anet really dropped the ball on this. Whoever decided to link achievements to this aspect of the event needs to be sat down and have the core principles of GW2 explained to them. The event itself is fine, and there are even other events with items behaving the same way. But those events are typically not linked to achievements, and especially not limited-time achievements.

I did a couple events without even noticing the items on the ground because I was focused on what seemed to be the primary aspect of the event, the Inquest attack. After looking into the achievements, I started noticing the dropped items and managed to grab a few of them during one event. However, I think I will just be ignoring these achievements until they are fixed, as I have no interest in contributing to this counter-productive gameplay.

I didn’t have to do anything with GW1 to fix it. I just relogged in GW2 a while after it happened.

I just relogged again and my title is back, and my recent achievements show GWAMM and a couple HoM achievents as my latest.

I just relogged into the game to swap PC, and immediately received a mail from “Scholar Aiti” informing me that I had recently earned the God Walking Amongst Mere Mortals Title. Then proceeding to explain that it was an error and I had not actually earned the title. I checked and I no longer have the title, but have yet to check and confirm other missing rewards from HoM.

The message is right about one thing, there is certainly has been an error. I earned the GWAMM title in GW1 years before GW2 was released. I’ve only rarely logged into GW1 since GW2’s launch, let alone made any “recent” progress in any titles there.

I’m guessing this is related to the incident a year or two ago where new characters were being erroneously reward HoM bonuses. I might have made a BL key farming character during that time, but the GWAMM title and full HoM rewards have been a part of my GW2 account since pre-release head start.

This is still happening, and I keep noticing more and more instances where I’m being hit by attacks I know should have been dodged. Combined with the animation/hit sync issues that have been around for over a year, dodging is just as much RNG/luck as it is player skill.

The more of it I see, the more I’m convinced it’s something Anet has done for server load/efficiency. The desync issues with some world bosses (Jungle Wurm and Golem Mk II’s slam attacks are the most obvious) started being common right along with them making changes to how the game server queues and processes actions. I get that managing server load efficiently is important, but when your optimizations rely on negating players’ ability to react and utilize the primary survival mechanic of the game, it’s time to find somewhere else to optimize or just upgrade the hardware.

It just got bugged on 64.25.38.222

The defend event completed normally, but the champ event never started. There was briefly something at the base of the leyline that could trigger traps and put you in combat, though no enemy was visible and there were no damage numbers/combat log entries.

Now the leylines are all still active as if the event were still up, just like the other bugged map.

I was going to start a topic on this, but I’ll just add to this one.

This is still happening, and it goes beyond Tequatl and fish heads. Those attacks just make it much more apparent and more difficult to dismiss as a poorly timed dodged because you can see the dodge animation being interrupted. There appears to have been a significant change in how a successful dodge is determined, or at least how that interacts with network latency and server-side delays.

When the dodge key is pressed, the animation begins pretty much immediately, but there is a delay (almost imperceptible under good network conditions) before the endurance bar drains and your evade timeframe begins. It becomes very obvious sometimes during full-map world bosses or large wvw battles (those times when your skills won’t even cast), but it’s always there and always has been. This means that even after your dodge animation has started, there is a window where you can still be hit before your endurance is spent.

How this has worked from launch up till recently, is that the lag damage window ended the instant the endurance bar began draining. Any time you thought your dodge was done in time but you still got hit, you would not have lost any endurance. Even if you already saw the dodge animation on the character. Far from ideal, but easily explained by network latency and the server waiting to confirm a legit dodge before allowing the evade window to start.

After the recent changes, the lag damage window is extending beyond the start of the endurance bar drain. This means you can dodge in time, have your endurance spent, and still get hit. This is apparent in the videos posted above. From what I have noticed, the timing is very unpredictable and doesn’t seem to be completely tied to network latency. With a ping of 50ms (1/20th of a second) there shouldn’t be a discernible delay in the evade time frame’s start, as there is no delay between keypress and endurance loss.

Another thing I’ve noticed with Tequatl’s wave attack, and is also in the video posted previously, is that successfully dodging the wave no longer gives an “evade” text popup or combat log entry.

Obtena.7952:

Sorry I don’t buy it. If someone says it MIGHT be conceived as something and they were against it in the first place, they are thinking it as well. There is an agenda there; they want something.

It might be seen that way, if they had actually done it. It’s not related at all to anything Anet has done. In fact, it was something I had originally suggested that they do, then later acknowledged that it might be perceived in an unfavorable way and agreed that another more transparent option would be better. An idea based on the negative reaction to Anet’s FAQ editing the day HoT was put up for pre-order.

So yeah, I guess I have the evil agenda of wanting to see Anet present information in a manner that is least likely to be construed as misleading, false, or attempting to hide something.

DaikonSamurai.6714:

mrstealth.6701:

Siobhan.5273:

The good news is, it seems they’ve finally updated the HoT page to include the fact that we won’t be getting all the weapons most of us were sold when we bought the expansion.

Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns will let you begin your journey toward the first new set of legendary weapons to be added to the game since its original set of 20 that were included in the launch of Guild Wars 2. The first three to be released will be the celestial axe named Astralaria, an experimental energy pistol called H.O.P.E., and the raven spirit staff named Nevermore. Additional legendary weapons will be released in small groups at regular intervals until the full set of 16 has been added to this game.

Update, March 2016: Please see this post from game director Mike O’Brien about legendary weapons & upcoming content in Guild Wars 2.

I think Anet is trying to have their cake and eat it, too. You ate most of the cake, now it’s time to take down the sign that says you’re selling a whole cake. Not scribbling “sorry, we ate half the cake” on the sign. Not scribbling “turn over sign for details on what we did with the cake” on the sign.

They leave up the false info, and put an unclear “something has changed” subtext to it, with nothing but a forum post link to clarify. They could have at least taken out the last line that specifically states 16 weapons would be added, and perhaps reworded the first line a bit. That would get rid of the blatantly false info and leave the rest being somewhat vague, but still true. Of course, the update should still remain to further clarify the situation.

You could look at it that way, or you could look at it as they want to keep the old post as it is to show what it said originally while also informing people of the changes. The last time they outright changed an advertisement on their site to better represent the current product (something about needing core GW2 to play HoT before they decided Central Tyria would come with HoT) there were a lot of accusations that they were manipulating and trying to hide the error from us. I see this new method as an attempt at transparency. Though I think simply crossing out the changed info and an asterisk with a note would’ve been better but w/e.

That’s a good point. Even if the change is less drastic, it could be seen as trying to sweep it under the rug. Crossing it out would be the most clear way to handle it.

Though Anet might not want to put a big “we cancelled this after selling it” message on their marketing page, it’s still the most accurate and honest way of doing it. Which I think is something they do need to focus on right now. Anet has a lot of trust to re-earn if they want to sell another expansion later on.

Siobhan.5273:

The good news is, it seems they’ve finally updated the HoT page to include the fact that we won’t be getting all the weapons most of us were sold when we bought the expansion.

Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns will let you begin your journey toward the first new set of legendary weapons to be added to the game since its original set of 20 that were included in the launch of Guild Wars 2. The first three to be released will be the celestial axe named Astralaria, an experimental energy pistol called H.O.P.E., and the raven spirit staff named Nevermore. Additional legendary weapons will be released in small groups at regular intervals until the full set of 16 has been added to this game.

Update, March 2016: Please see this post from game director Mike O’Brien about legendary weapons & upcoming content in Guild Wars 2.

I think Anet is trying to have their cake and eat it, too. You ate most of the cake, now it’s time to take down the sign that says you’re selling a whole cake. Not scribbling “sorry, we ate half the cake” “turn over sign for details on what we did with the cake” on the sign.

They leave up the false info, and put an unclear “something has changed” subtext to it, with nothing but a forum post link to clarify. They could have at least taken out the last line that specifically states 16 weapons would be added, and perhaps reworded the first line a bit. That would get rid of the blatantly false info and leave the rest being somewhat vague, but still true. Of course, the update should still remain to further clarify the situation.

They do get points for adding the updated info, but it definitely could have been done much better without any additional effort.

cosmicegg.8502:

Fumigene.5076:

I’m curious as to why it’s so complicated to make a new collection for a precursor. It seems to only require basic functionalities that should be available in a content editor.

- Create a new item.
- Modify an item.
- Add an item to a merchant.
- Add a conditionally available item to a merchant.
- Create a new recipe.
- Create a new recipe item.
- Create a container item.
- Add an item to a container.
- Add an ‘OnUse’ function on an item to activate a collection.
- Add a conditional item reward for a successful event (collection activated and concerned achievement still not completed).
- Add a conditional item drop from a monster.
- Add a conditional item drop from a chest.
- Add a conditional item drop from a gathering node.
- Add a conditional dialogue to an NPC.
- Add a conditional interactive item/space to a zone.
- Create a new achievement linked to an object.
- Create a new collection object.

Considering the collections were introduced with the “September 2014 Feature Pack”, that they did some rework for Hot and that they knew they would make quite a few collections, one could have expected them to develop the tools to do it efficiently. They had what, 2 years to do it?

Must be a lack of personnel If they had to take the 6 devs off content that was sold but not delivered to work in other segments of the game.

Or those 6 are just really incompetent or poorly assigned. We don’t know if this same small team was behind the first 3 weapons or the 20 old precursor collections, but it’s obvious that someone at Anet is capable of making the content. They managed to push out those collections, a bunch of others along with them in HoT, and a crap-ton of them got added to the core game back in 2014. If there was some massive difficulty in creating collections, they must have known it before now. They would have known it before HoT launched, and likely even before they announced it.

It’s like building a subdivision of 20 houses, but not noticing all of your nails are rusted and lumber rotted until you’re laying down the carpets on the 12th house. You can’t work with something for that long, and complete so much, without seeing the problem.

cosmicegg.8502:

This thread has nothing to do with a drought it has to do with a contract between 2 parties and one not honoring their end. If you want to complain about a lack of content start another thread and whine there all you want. This is about false advertising which in fact is continuing on the website.

It’s not the primary issue here, but it’s certainly related to it. The drought was part of their excuse for not honoring their marketing. And that decision, in a somewhat ironic turn, leads to a further (or at least a different) drought for a number of players. This may not be the place to complain about the content drought, but it’s definitely a part of this issue and has a place in the discussion.

And it is kinda funny that the false info is still up on their website. I don’t know if any devs are still paying attention to this thread, but it’s safe to assume that at least some moderators are. And I would think they would at least be able to get word to someone able to address that. It’s been pointed out enough times that they just about have to be aware.

ekarat.1085:

Ticky.5831:

Ashen.2907:

A drought does not mean a complete absence, but rather an insufficiency. I live in an area that has been in its worst drought in over a thousand years, but we still get rain.

I do not think that the existence of raids means that there is not a content drought.

Well, raids are pretty much the only thing MMOs(in general) are expected to come out with between expansions.

So by the general standards, either it’s not a content drought, or MMOs in general are in a constant state of content drought.

I believe that MMOs in general are in a constant state of content drought — it takes far more time to develop content than to play through it, unless you make it especially grindy.

This is completely true. It’s just not possible to make content at the rate players are able to complete it. Raids in other MMOs “last longer” because they typically take longer to get through and give more reason to repeat, or even grind. But those MMOs are still going to be in a constant state of drought and declining players between the release of expansions or other major content drops.

Right now GW2 doesn’t have raids, it has part of a single raid. And that is still lacking the big reward for doing a raid, legendary armor progress. Combine this with HoT being rather light on content itself, and you end up with a noticeable content drought in short order despite being mere months from an expansion release.

Linken.6345:

mrstealth.6701:

Ticky.5831:

I don’t know how many people were opposed to the presence of raids, but I think you’re vastly underestimating the number of people who quit over the years of a lack of challenging endgame content, combined with the number of long-suffering fans who stuck with the game until it finally came out.

I don’t think raids exactly fit with some of the core principles of the game, largely because of the longer prep times, waiting for people, and more need for certain roles. But they were also asked for by a good portion of the playerbase, and will probably keep those people around at least a while longer. Even though I don’t have any interest in them, or really care whether they exist or not, I think it’s still an overall good thing to add.

I certainly don’t know anyone that quit or got angry that they did add raids. They didn’t add them in a way that has an impact on the rest of the game, like putting in improved/raid gear. I don’t see anything there to be bothered about.

Except they did atleast when legendary armor is released.

By improved gear, I meant something that was better/had higher stats. Legendary armor will be at the same power level as ascended, just with no cost on swapping its stats.

Ticky.5831:

I don’t know how many people were opposed to the presence of raids, but I think you’re vastly underestimating the number of people who quit over the years of a lack of challenging endgame content, combined with the number of long-suffering fans who stuck with the game until it finally came out.

I don’t think raids exactly fit with some of the core principles of the game, largely because of the longer prep times, waiting for people, and more need for certain roles. But they were also asked for by a good portion of the playerbase, and will probably keep those people around at least a while longer. Even though I don’t have any interest in them, or really care whether they exist or not, I think it’s still an overall good thing to add.

I certainly don’t know anyone that quit or got angry that they did add raids. They didn’t add them in a way that has an impact on the rest of the game, like putting in improved/raid gear. I don’t see anything there to be bothered about.

Obtena.7952:

I get that people are angry about the cancelation, but there is no way you can defend the release of a single Legendary weapon 6 months after the release of HoT as reasonable delivery on that project … they would have completed the second legendary set in time for the game servers to shut down. GG!

It hasn’t been 6 months since release. We’re still a couple weeks short of that mark, and it was barely over 5 months at the time this announcement was made. It could be 6 months out by time the spring update hits, but there were also other things being worked on. The first 3 weapons weren’t even released until shortly after that(forget how exacly long, but they were in by early Dec). And then they had to spend time on issues and polish with those 3 and 20 precursor collections for the original legendary set. So no, they didn’t spend 6 months just making one weapon.

In fact, it was only a couple weeks before HoT’s launch when Anet seemed quite confident in being able to make a weapon in about a month. A time when they obviously had either completed 2 and were working on a third, or were working on 3 mostly-complete ones simultaneously. Either way, they had 3 weapons and 20 pre collections out within 4-6 weeks of making that statement.

correction/clarification
The first 3 weapons were added on Nov 17, just over 3 weeks after launch. About 5 weeks after stating that a weapon takes 1 month to add.

Obtena.7952:

mrstealth.6701:

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

Xillllix.3485:

If the expansion was a full-bodied 50$ worth of content expansion there wouldn’t be a content drought in the first place…

That is completely untrue. No MMO company has ever been able to produce content as fast or faster than the majority of people can consume it.

Whether you feel that you got $50 worth of content is a different consideration than if the amount of content that is released has any potential to cover the periods in time during which new content is being created.

~EW

Of course there will always eventually be a content drought, but I assume the point was that kitten expansion shouldn’t have reached that point so quickly.

(edit)
That kitten filter. I always forget that I can’t put an “a” in front of “$50” because it thinks $ and 5 are both S’s.
Not even going to fix it this late.

Exactly why they have made this particular decision; to reallocate resources to minimize droughts. Funny how people don’t see, or what to see that.

The problem isn’t really with the decision to drop one feature in favor of another, it’s with the fact that the dropped feature was used to market a paid expansion. They’ve made decisions just like this in the past without such a big deal being made over it.

If legendary weapons hadn’t been thrown around as an expansion feature for over a year, I wouldn’t be here with torch and pitchfork in hand. I’d be disappointed. I’d have lost a bit (more) faith in Anet. But I wouldn’t be angry, feeling like I’d been mislead, and demanding that they do something a bit better than “sorry guys, this is too hard and we’re not making it anymore.”

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

Xillllix.3485:

If the expansion was a full-bodied 50$ worth of content expansion there wouldn’t be a content drought in the first place…

That is completely untrue. No MMO company has ever been able to produce content as fast or faster than the majority of people can consume it.

Whether you feel that you got $50 worth of content is a different consideration than if the amount of content that is released has any potential to cover the periods in time during which new content is being created.

~EW

Of course there will always eventually be a content drought, but I assume the point was that kitten expansion shouldn’t have reached that point so quickly.

(edit)
That kitten filter. I always forget that I can’t put an “a” in front of “$50” because it thinks $ and 5 are both S’s.
Not even going to fix it this late.

cesmode.4257:

mrstealth.6701:

cesmode.4257:

Ragnarox.9601:

cosmicegg.8502:

I would rather they gave me what was advertised and paid for then then allow them to get away with cheating on a deal. I would accept a refund if it included all my gem purchases and then gladly say adios and consider time played as time wasted.

This. I would gladly accept refund of my 45€ for a HoT and because I will get banned after that will gladly accept 60€ for core game that I purchased 3 years ago. So thats 105€ to use on something else. Can I get that?

You want a refund for the core game too? Thats like ordering a steak at a restaurant, eating 90% of it, and then asking for a refund because it wasn’t cooked to order.

Nearly the same thing with HoT…we are how many months into the launch of HoT?

I agree that it’s extreme and unreasonable. But I also think it’s just as unreasonable for Anet to terminate the entire account in cases where only HoT was refunded (whether in full or partially).

Whether or not what you say is true, there might be a reason.

Example: If you purchased HoT…acquired HoT specific items(gear? cosmetics?)…it would be very very difficult for Arenanet to do a rollback on your account to remove all HoT specific items only and leave you with the core game(and core game items) only.

I don’t doubt that is a big reason why refunds are handled as such. I guess it’s more correct to say that either scenario for a refund inflicts unfair damages onto one of the involved parties. The time spent being able to play the game is surely worth something to both sides, but isn’t easily quantified.

cesmode.4257:

Ragnarox.9601:

cosmicegg.8502:

I would rather they gave me what was advertised and paid for then then allow them to get away with cheating on a deal. I would accept a refund if it included all my gem purchases and then gladly say adios and consider time played as time wasted.

This. I would gladly accept refund of my 45€ for a HoT and because I will get banned after that will gladly accept 60€ for core game that I purchased 3 years ago. So thats 105€ to use on something else. Can I get that?

You want a refund for the core game too? Thats like ordering a steak at a restaurant, eating 90% of it, and then asking for a refund because it wasn’t cooked to order.

Nearly the same thing with HoT…we are how many months into the launch of HoT?

I agree that it’s extreme and unreasonable. But I also think it’s just as unreasonable for Anet to terminate the entire account in cases where only HoT was refunded (whether in full or partially).

bananaman.1685:

Ashen.2907:

1) there was no EULA present at the time of the establishment of the initial contract regarding GW2 between myself and Anet.

There has always been a user agreement and you agree to be bound by it with your very first login. You also agree that that it can change and, if you are in Germany, you even get your own special version of it. Your argument to the contrary is naive and ridiculous.

Your very first login happens after the purchase has been made. I bought the core game at a brick and mortar store and the expansion from an authorized third party , and those sellers are not going to accept the return of a product that has been opened or its key given.

This aspect of software EULAs has lead to them being invalidated in some cases. The fact that by the time the user is able to have the choice to agree or disagree, their ability to return the product is gone, serves to give some degree of favor to the consumer. Or as in many instances, the manufacturer/developer attempts to assert that merely opening the package, in which the EULA is sealed, qualifies as accepting the terms. In those cases, it can be quite difficult to establish that the agreement was ever valid due to its attempts at being enforced before it was even presented.

Obtena.7952:

The egregious part of this thread to me is the insistence on a refund, especially when full refund is being demanded.

There hasn’t really been much call for that. There seems to be more issue with the fact that a “full” refund is the only thing Anet offers. Many here (seems like most, but I’m not counting) do not want refunds for HoT and certainly not to lose our entire account over an issue involving only the expansion.

Obtena.7952:

I don’t think that’s a valid comparison. Anet did not specify how many Legendaries and when, unlike the car that comes with a 4 Cly when I expected 8

They certainly did specify how many, just not when. However, “regular intervals” and “indefinitely suspended” are very dissimilar “whens”.

cosmicegg.8502:

Ive already read negative feedback about HoT at amazon highliting this as a reason. Colin Has to be grinning.

There will always be that part of me that wonders if this is the reason he left.

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

If your grocer advertises a special of bogo cans of green beans, then tells you they can’t deliver them because they don’t have them, they’ll try and find ways to make up for it: rain check for when it comes back, even if they don’t have an eta (‘indefinitely postpone’), corn as a substitute (increased LW production), or refund.

I shouldn’t have to point out again that substitutes are likely not an option in such a case, unless the customer agrees to accept it. If the customer refuses substitution, rain checks, or refunds in an applicable scenario, would be the options available for the consumer to resolve the issue. And the rain check can (as they do where I live) carry with it limitations on the time allowed to fulfill. I think the refund option would also still leave the seller open to other penalties, as the advertisement was still false and left unfulfilled, though that would be between the seller and legal system instead of the customer..

Ultimately, it is the consumer that has the power to decide what is or isn’t an acceptable resolution, if it is not fulfillment of the advertised product or appropriate refund.

It is definitely less clear in the situation at hand with this game. It’s a lot more complicated when it’s a product or service that was slated for later delivery, and has’t yet been completed by the seller. Even more so when the issue revolves around only a part of the product. But there is definitely something wrong when a seller can just decide to not fulfill their advertisement, and declare themselves the sole party to determine what is an appropriate response to the customer. Ethical behavior, despite being subjective in many ways, does include some aspects that are generally shared across the board. I’m think I can say with a fair amount of confidence that most would agree being dishonest or misleading is not ethical behavior.

cesmode.4257:

If you have any doubts of my assumptions, let me direct you to the forums 2-3 years ago when they revealed “ascended weapons”. My gosh…anyone that was around during that time predicted doom for the game (including myself, albeit it its one of the reasons I stopped playing..in the end I decided to make my voice heard with the absence of my wallet after a few dev decisions that didn’t sit with me). Thread after thread for what seemed like 1-2 years, threads hundreds of pages long. Every day, its all you saw on the forums. An entire AMA was ad-hoc and “spur of the moment” created to address the insane rage that the community felt about this betrayel. Yet, nothing…nothing was done to address this. They had their own plan, their own decision making, their own views, their own statistics, and they went ahead full steam FULL KNOWING what wrath we would bring to their door step.

It’s kinda funny that you mention that. Just last year they finally did something that was essentially an answer to one of the biggest concerns back then. Mystic Forge recipes were added to, rather cheaply, change the stats of ascended gear (excluding jewelry). Had ascended gear initially came with that option, or if it were added during that round of forum rage, I think the outcry would have been far less severe.

Of course, we don’t know and likely never will, if the community response from back then had any impact on the change being implemented. There’s just as much of a chance it was a new idea thought up for convenience, as there is chance it was something picked up off the table from 3 years ago.

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

And there’s always the fine print, and there’s the eula, and there’s other factors in the local laws like what the allowable wriggle room is between marketing and the delivered product, and on, and on… all which mean that if you feel a company has broken the law, then you consult a lawyer who is versed in that law. ‘I feel wronged therefore the law must have been broken’ is not an acceptable conclusion to jump to… it is a valid and worthwhile possibility to explore if you’re invested enough to do so.

If you do, I’m very interested in what you find out, no matter what way it goes.

~EW

They most likely realize what they have done is wrong on an ethical level. It still could wrong on a legal one as well, but Anet does have a sense of security behind fine print, technicalities, and legal shielding provided their own EULA (it does contain anti-litigation/binding arbitration clauses). It’s not a matter of “I feel wronged so a law must have been broken”, it’s a matter of there being laws specifically made to stop companies from doing this very thing. It’s just prohibitively difficult and costly to pursue, with cost of seeking compensation is exponentially higher than the compensation itself could ever be.

It’s sort of like when someone with diplomatic immunity commits a crime. They know it’s wrong. Everyone else knows it’s wrong. There’s just kitten all anyone can actually do about it because of the fine print.

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

Linken.6345:

EphemeralWallaby.7643

Spira.4578:

So the compensation for the customers who bought the expansion and got the expac feature canceled, would essentially be the sustainable CORE content which everyone gets for free.

LWS3 will be gated behind HoT, and that content coming faster means more of it… that is certainly a form of compensation to those in HoT. For me, it wouldn’t matter if it is Core instead of HoT; ymmv.
~EW

Nope, to me that still counts as marketing and vague info. They’re telling you their intent… but nothing concrete… “set of 16” isn’t enough for me; those are just words for their intended finished product. Show me some concept art, and some lore, and some video of characters wielding them and showing off effects, and then there starts to be something substantive to base a purchasing decision on. I’ll believe the product exists when the code is done.

~EW

With these two quotes side to side how can you say that LWS3 will be more since they pump it out faster.

They havent even said how many episodes we will get witch we all know are marketing lies anyway.

They havent shown you any art or lore or video of a character running through it.

And likewise since the compensation hasn’t been delivered, I don’t accept it’s happened yet. I do think this is what’s been offered, but since it hasn’t been delivered, it’s all still hypothetical at this point.

Time will tell if that does wind up being the remuneration that we’re given… or something else… or nothing at all.

~EW

They don’t just get to decide what to offer as compensation and expect it to be accepted. That is absolutely not how consumer protections regarding advertising work. Precisely what is stated in your advertisement, marketing, or promotional material is precisely what they are obligated to deliver. If they want to offer some substitute that they feel is equal, it is entirely up to the customer’s discretion as to whether or not they choose to accept it.

If the details advertised are vague, then there is certainly room to argue that what was advertised was still, at least on technicality, provided. For example, the claim that HoT’s maps are “some of the biggest” in the game might not be true in terms of the actual content and how much of the map is actually used in playable content. But the verticality and open spaces do mean that the maps encompass a large area in terms of their measurable dimensions. Advertising that your game will deliver a “set of 16 legendary weapons” isn’t ambiguous or vague. Whether or not you choose to believe that marketing does not change the fact that it specifically states what is being sold.

Obtena.7952:

Linken.6345:

Well lets go one step further lets cancel legendary armor aswell since that is even harder to make then 12 weapons, as others have stated its 18 pieces totaly then then have to be made to fit 10 dif race/genders.

I completely agree actually … I think legendary anything makes no sense in this game for the very same reasons they seem to be canning weapons.

I kind of expect this to happen since they already did it to the weapons. It’s the next “logical” step down that road. It’s still not something I want to see happen, but it makes sense if this is really the path they want to take.

I do agree that it’s probable the main reason they are still in is because they are the primary reward for raids. Though, I do see raids as another idea that could just get dropped like so many others, especially if participation ends up falling below their expectations. I’d certainly not be surprised if this first raid ended up as the only raid.

I’m not really sure what the reward/collection structure for raids/legendary armor is supposed to be, but am I correct in having the impression that completing the set is going require more than just this first raid? I know there is only one (still incomplete) collection ingame at the moment, and I’m assuming that future raids will add more. If that’s right, the armor actually getting fully implemented would be dependent on more raids being added.

Obtena.7952:

mrstealth.6701:

Obtena.7952:

mrstealth.6701:

Obtena.7952:

What I know is, you don’t understand that Legendary development is causing the content drought that you think Legendary weapons are necessary to fill. You’re just grasping at any straw at this point to justify keeping Legendary development; even the ones that go against your position.

A content drought caused by 6 people being “missing” out of a 120-dev live game team? That’s quite a stretch.

If anything is low impact, it’s augmenting a 120-strong team with an extra 6 people.

Really? 5% Isn’t a big deal to you? I guess the difference between a few legendaries shouldn’t either.

If you add 5% manpower to a year’s worth of work, you end up with that job being done about 2.5 weeks faster. I don’t consider that to be a big deal.

Comparatively, taking 6 people away from a 6 person dev team…well, that’s as a high negative impact as you can possibly have without destroying work already done.

I would rather they release content they can actually deliver 2.5 weeks faster than content they can’t deliver at all.

I’d rather see what we paid for getting delivered or some compensation for that failure, and perhaps an explanation for the cancellation that actually makes a bit of sense. They can at least address why, or better yet, how this is just now becoming an issue worthy of informing us. Anet surely did not complete 20 precursor collections and 3 legendary weapons without realizing there was a problem.

Obtena.7952:

mrstealth.6701:

Obtena.7952:

What I know is, you don’t understand that Legendary development is causing the content drought that you think Legendary weapons are necessary to fill. You’re just grasping at any straw at this point to justify keeping Legendary development; even the ones that go against your position.

A content drought caused by 6 people being “missing” out of a 120-dev live game team? That’s quite a stretch.

If anything is low impact, it’s augmenting a 120-strong team with an extra 6 people.

Really? 5% Isn’t a big deal to you? I guess the difference between a few legendaries shouldn’t either.

If you add 5% manpower to a year’s worth of work, you end up with that job being done about 2.5 weeks faster. I don’t consider that to be a big deal.

Comparatively, taking 6 people away from a 6 person dev team…well, that’s as a high negative impact as you can possibly have without destroying work already done.

Obtena.7952:

What I know is, you don’t understand that Legendary development is causing the content drought that you think Legendary weapons are necessary to fill. You’re just grasping at any straw at this point to justify keeping Legendary development; even the ones that go against your position.

A content drought caused by 6 people being “missing” out of a 120-dev live game team? That’s quite a stretch.

If anything is low impact, it’s augmenting a 120-strong team with an extra 6 people.

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

And the store determines what that compensation is… if they choose to make it a rain check, then so be it… but they don’t always. Heck, in this example the rain check can be equated to “indefinitely suspended.” You can get the green beans when they’re back in the store, but no eta on when that is.

Actually, at least in some states, a store is required to offer a rain check. Unless the item is a clearance, special order, or some other item that is unable to be restocked, any other compensation is solely at the customer’s discretion to accept or decline.

Obtena.7952:

mrstealth.6701:

Obtena.7952:

mrstealth.6701:

Obtena.7952:

Spira.4578:

Most players don’t even know about this change.

Because it’s such low impact content for most people that it doesn’t affect them.

You keep referring to it as low impact, which in addition to being somewhat vague, is something none of us have the data to determine. Only Anet has the information relevant to determine that, and we have no idea what was actually factored into their decision. For all we know, it could have absolutely nothing to do how much “impact” legendary weapons have.

You’re right … I’m making an educated guess on that. I’m assuming Anet isn’t stupid enough to cancel high impact content that has a low cost to implement that they can deliver vs. low impact content that is more costly that they can’t deliver. You know, business decision stuff based on ROI, etc … much better metrics than what any of us have access to.

let’s not get back into the premise that Anet is clueless about what they are doing, so we can assume anything they do is stupid and therefore, reinstate Legendary development. That goes nowhere.

So why are they still working on legendary armor?

best answer .. Because we don’t have Legendary armor and it’s a specific reward to a high end raid?

This doesn’t make it any more high impact to players. The nature of its acquisition will probably see it being a goal for even fewer players.

Obtena.7952:

mrstealth.6701:

Obtena.7952:

Spira.4578:

Most players don’t even know about this change.

Because it’s such low impact content for most people that it doesn’t affect them.

You keep referring to it as low impact, which in addition to being somewhat vague, is something none of us have the data to determine. Only Anet has the information relevant to determine that, and we have no idea what was actually factored into their decision. For all we know, it could have absolutely nothing to do how much “impact” legendary weapons have.

You’re right … I’m making an educated guess on that. I’m assuming Anet isn’t stupid enough to cancel high impact content that has a low cost to implement that they can deliver vs. low impact content that is more costly that they can’t deliver. You know, business decision stuff based on ROI, etc … much better metrics than what any of us have access to.

let’s not get back into the premise that Anet is clueless about what they are doing, so we can assume anything they do is stupid and therefore, reinstate Legendary development. That goes nowhere.

So why are they still working on legendary armor?

It seems unlikely that legendary armor would have more impact than legendary weapons. It’s acquisition is even put behind content designed to be a challenge for more hardcore players. It also has a collection workload on-par with a full set of weapons, in addition to skins that are much more work to create to due to requiring different models and textures based on race and gender.

And I also think it’s fairly reasonable to question the decision making of a company that comes to the conclusion that a decision that they know will anger a lot of their customers, turns their own promotion/marketing into false information, and will negatively impact consumer trust/confidence, effecting the sales of their future products is somehow good for business.

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

Your local store advertises buy one get one free cans of green beans, you go there and they’re out of green beans, they give you a substitute of corn (or a rain-check for a future visit, or whatever). Substitutes happen frequently enough.

And that rain check is the very monetary compensation I was talking about. The rain check is offered because the consumer cannot be expected to accept another product. In fact, advertising a product that you intend on substituting with another product is called “bait and switch”, and is usually illegal. Not that I’m claiming ’"bait and switch" applies to Anet in this case, though there are some similarities.

Obtena.7952:

Spira.4578:

Most players don’t even know about this change.

Because it’s such low impact content for most people that it doesn’t affect them.

You keep referring to it as low impact, which in addition to being somewhat vague, is something none of us have the data to determine. Only Anet has the information relevant to determine that, and we have no idea what was actually factored into their decision. For all we know, it could have absolutely nothing to do how much “impact” legendary weapons have.

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

Yup, which is again why my point was to discount individual reparations as well as ambiguous murky reparations, and instead focus on what’s realistic. Which is sustainable content as a substitution for what they aren’t/weren’t able to provide. Unfortunately that still takes time.

~EW

Except, that’s generally not an acceptable compensation for a marketed product/feature that failed to be delivered. When such compensation does get offered, it is typically presented as an alternative option to a refund(whether full or partial) or other monetary compensation. The customer cannot be expected to simply accept whatever other product the seller decides to deem as equal to the previously undelivered product.

In fact, this is essentially what Anet has tried to do in this case. Their “compensation” was moving devs from legendary weapons to the live team to bring better living world content. This is the very “compensation” that people are angry about.

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

Should they be willing to give partial refunds, the big dilemma is how does ANet distinguish between those who bought HoT primarilly for the legendaries and those who’d just want a partial refund ‘cause it’s being handed out? If legendaries were even a partial consideration for some (which is more likely) how do you draw that line in how much consideration makes one eligible for a partial refund? If they just give a partial refund to everyone across the board, how much is appropriate? There’s too much ambiguity for such a solution to make it viable.

Everyone that bought HoT, bought the same product, sold as including the same promoted content. It doesn’t matter if the undelivered portion was of particular value to each person, they are all entitled to the same product, or equal compensation in its place. The fault is with the company, and they are required to treat all purchasers the same.

Noa.7490:

I really don’t understand what’s ANet’s problem with content production, especially with the full-time staff of devs they have. Just take a look at the Skyrim Nexus. There are thousands of high quality mods (46k last I checked) made by ordinary folks during their free time. There are abodes, armors, followers, weapons, monsters, new zones, you name it! And that’s just Skyrim. Many games have mods that rival and even surpass original content in quality. Now how can a full-time pro team such as the one at ANet struggle so much after all this time?

A lot of the problem is that Anet is rarely adding anything that fits into the existing framework as a mod does. They are constantly adding new systems or completely overhauling old ones, instead of just adding content into the existing game systems. This gets further complicated by their repeatedly abandoning these new and overhauled systems before they are even fully implemented.

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

Lol, I’m just the type of consumer who doesn’t buy software based on what’s it’s intended to be made in to… And, yes, that also means I never pre-order games or expansions as a personal policy. But, that’s neither here nor there.

I’m with you on that. I don’t pre-order games, because there is really no need to in the digital age where stock issues and shipping delays are of no concern. But that is more about waiting to see the overall quality of the product for me, not because I doubt it will really have 20 different vehicles, 50 guns, or a dozen playable classes.

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

I’m not a lawyer of any kind. But, I am pretty confident that before making such an announcement ANet would have had lawyers who were paid to know about the various consumer laws make sure they weren’t in the legal danger zone.

In other words I know enough about law to know that I don’t know enough about law to make any sweeping statements that they’re in the legal right or wrong.

~EW

They also have an EULA to sit behind, which is likely the biggest thing keeping them out of the danger zone. Despite there being questions about how enforceable those are, that is still a legal hurdle most people lack the resources or drive to get beyond. It still doesn’t make them right, the move any less unethical, or place any more responsibility on the consumer. It just makes it more difficult for the consumer to actually do something about it.

I’d say that is pretty effective against individual grievances and disgruntled customers. But something on a larger scale, that effects a lot more customers, has more risk that someone will stand up and try to fight it.

Mitch.4781:

I don’t get why they went the collection route anyways. I’m currently doing the collections for bolt and nevermore out of curiosity to see why they are such a big issue.

So far, ALL they are are wp checklists of running to an npc to get an item or finishing an event. It’s certainly not the “epic journey” Johansen would have u believe and in fact it’s just a chore.

Honestly the old rng system was better than this boring grind.

I see it as a mixed bag, with pros and cons in either system.

It’s really great to win at the RNG and get the precursor you need, or one that can fund buying what you need. On the other side of that coin, it’s rather “unepic” to just grind out a pile of gold to buy it from someone else that got lucky with RNG.

With collections, there is progress outside of farming gold or waiting to get lucky. And one advantage is that you’re still getting money/loot in addition to that progress. The downside is that you’re pigeon-holed into doing a very specific list of things to progress, instead of just doing whatever you want to earn gold/gambling fodder.

Another thing, and what I think is one of the biggest actual problems with collections, is that the system still relies very heavily on an economical resource sink. Much of the process is gathering or buying an insane amount of materials, many of which are ascended materials with timegated crafting that encourage buying. This just brings back the same “unepic” feeling of grinding gold to buy a precursor. I know some players that see this aspect of the not-so-legendary journey and ask “why can’t I just buy this thing?”

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

Nope, to me that still counts as marketing and vague info. They’re telling you their intent… but nothing concrete… “set of 16” isn’t enough for me… those are just words of their intent. Show me some concept art, and some lore, and some video of effects, and then there starts to be something substantive to base a purchasing decision on. I’ll believe the product exists when the code is done.

~EW

I get the impression that you’re one of the shoppers that tends to tear open a box in the store to be sure that what’s inside matches the picture. Not that there is anything inherently wrong with doing so, though I doubt the store or another person eventually purchasing the item are very appreciative of it.

You are free to have whatever standard you desire on believing the product being sold is what you really getting. But consumer protections and laws regarding accuracy in advertisement are in place to give a consumer reasonable confidence that what is ‘on the box’ is actually ‘in the box’. Of course that, doesn’t stop a company from trying. It does, however, mean that the company is in the wrong and that the responsibility does not lie on the consumer for believing the advertisement.

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

mrstealth.6701:

That’s certainly good advise for features that are hyped up or vaguely described. But the fact that we were getting a complete set of legendary weapons wasn’t vague info or hype. The only part left unclear was the time frame for that delivery.

I suppose that’s where we’re going to disagree, I’m sorry. I don’t remember seeing any art for the complete set, there’s no description of visual effects, no complete list of names, no lore, nothing but marketing and eventually 3(4) weapons. The weapons that are released are proof enough they made a “good-faith” attempt at delivery… but otherwise what I saw was vague info and marketing.

~EW

This is a fairly non-vague statement.

Additional legendary weapons will be released in small groups at regular intervals until the full set of 16 has been added to this game.

I shouldn’t need a detailed list or picture of every screw, nut, bolt, and washer included in the box of a new desk to be confident that those items are indeed included. But Anet’s marketed legendary weapons were more specific than a vague mention of “parts included”. Not just “legendary weapons”, or “a set of legendary weapons”, but they explicitly said a “set of 16”.

And as has been mentioned a few times before, and remains true as of right now, that information is still on the HoT website.

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

bloodletting wolf.2837:

I’m fascinated by how many post the same half dozen people have made complaining about this the past 30 pages.

Well turns out not all of us are just willing to [censored] take it from Anet.

It also turns out that some of us learned previously not to buy video games or expansions based on what it’s promoted to be before the code is finished being written. No matter how charismatic and trustful the seller.

“The burned hand teaches best. After that, advice about fire goes to the heart.” -JRR Tolkein, The Two Towers

I buy based on what’s there, not based on what’s promoted for the future… I learned that lesson long before ever buying GW2… and that’s why I’m not upset by this news, nor upset with ANet… and that’s why I still play and love GW2.

~EW

That’s certainly good advise for features that are hyped up or vaguely described. But the fact that we were getting a complete set of legendary weapons wasn’t vague info or hype. The only part left unclear was the time frame for that delivery.

When a box describes the enclosed product as “professional grade/quality” or “America’s #1 whatever it is”, be skeptical of the marketing. When the box says “assembly required (tools & hardware included)”, all of the needed screws, tools, and such had better be in that box.

CETheLucid.3964:

I mean, do all the years and hours you’ve enjoyed the game up until that theoretical point account for nothing?

Some emotional attachment one might have for the account VS some kind of financial return on your investment?

If it’s purely a money thing, something or nothing is still an easy choice to make and were I to feel so strongly about the issue as some seem too, it makes a point to the company.

How long something has been owned and someone feeling that they had “gotten their money’s worth out of it” don’t really matter. It is paid for, owned, and should not have to be given up. Especially not when the item at issue is only a smaller, separately sold, portion of that whole.

The problem isn’t with the customer not wanting to make some self-damaging noble sacrifice to prove a point to the company, it’s with the company failing to offer a reasonable option for compensation.