Guild Wars 2

A really interesting approach was taken in WoW: They added talents where for every hit you took, the CD on a defensive ability went down by x seconds. A similar effect could be done to Shield Stance and Ignore Pain as a 30 points in Defense trait option. This is another mechanism that could scale pretty well and have the same effect in small and large battles making melee a little more viable in WvWvW.

well the changes to abilities aren’t exactly something game breaking or new… making the mace similar to shield stance only makes the ability so it scales properly vs multiple opponents… getting healed for the damage you take for 3 seconds is an option to healing shouts for WvWvW… healing shouts would work better in smaller fights where an ability like that would be better for large scale fights and so forth… im not asking anything new, im asking for defensive abilities to scale properly which would make us fine, just as we are in sPvP and other small encounters

this is turning into a conversation that’s kind of beating it around the bush… i want to play melee in WvWvW and I cant due to the way the system is designed.. i can play melee without a problem in sPvP because the fights are smaller and the warrior defense mechanism is appropriate for that… i don’t think the current system which relies mostly on reducing a % of the damage you take works however in WvWvW and I feel that it should offer new traits that are particularly more suitable for this activity

300 vitality and being able to heal with my shouts for roughly 5-6k every 20 seconds is great for small fights but it makes no difference in WvWvW
300 toughness and some extra healing paired with a little extra toughness and slightly shorter CDs on defense abilities are great for small fights, because you take fewer hits during the time you wait for the CD to come back… they don’t make a difference in WvWvW because you’ll be dead before the CD comes back

i want other options for defense traits that are more WvWvW friendly.. if I’m to kitten my damage to be more durable in WvWvW make it worth the investment… right now you might as well go full glass cannon, you wont notice a difference in survivability.. what’s +/-2 seconds before you die

I gave a few examples above through out the posts and I’ll give them again
- 1 second of blocking after you dodge.. should have the same effect if you’re fighting 1 person or are in WvWvW.. as opposed to having you block the next incoming attack after you dodge which is great in small fights but makes no difference in large fights
- change the mace blocking ability to work like shield stance, blocking all attacks for a period of time and not just the next attack since that doesn’t make a difference in WvWvW
- you are instantly healed for the damage you take in the next 3 seconds and you can’t die while you still have this buff on a short CD.. so people don’t just focus you down like it’s nothing
- ignore pain CD is now 30 seconds but you do 50% less damage during it

and so forth.. the type of defensive abilities that scale to larger fights and aren’t appropriate just for 1v1s or 2v2s… the current defensive system works only during small fights and does not scale to larger fights the way the thieves and mesmer vanish or clones do or guardian blocks

I want to play melee, the majority of the warrior weapons are melee and I can’t because I die in seconds. I don’t want to be forced to a rifle or bow if I want to be valuable.

I specifically mentioned that I don’t expect to go first into a zerg and hope to do something meaningful. I explained a scenario where in a balanced 10 vs 10 fight, I would try and come through the side or a spot that’s more appropriate where I wouldn’t have the entire zerg switch to me but only 2 or 3 people. I would expect to be able to do something meaningful by approaching a strategy like that. If I was to play a thief or a mesmer I could probably go in, score a kill and then get out just fine. If I was a guardian I could probably hold my ground versus them, without actually killing any of them for quite some time and give my group an advantage by keeping 3 enemies busy. If I do the same thing as a warrior and go vs 2-3 opponents that are of equivalent gear and skill I just die within the first 10 seconds right after Ignore Pain and Shield Stance ends. If I do however happen to make it out I can’t go back in for another 1.5 minutes and I didn’t really accomplish anything for the duration that I was there.

My point is that the current warrior defense design isn’t meant for large fights, it’s designed for smaller fights where it performs well such as in sPvP where most of the time you see a 2v2 or a 3v3. Our defense is based on mostly reducing the % of damage we take which isn’t that high so we’re not an unstoppable force in a 1v1. This system however fails when you have 2 or 3 enemies attacking you.

To be able to actually play melee right now in WvWvW you have to be part of a pretty decent team that you play with very often making it available only to “hardcore players”. Other professions don’t need to do that and they can perform our role much better since they don’t need babysitting. If I don’t have 20 hours per week to dish into WvWvW then I guess Rifle/Bow it is for me but then again, other ranged professions are much better at range than I am also.

While the melee warrior performs very well in sPvP with the current design and traits, I feel that there should be new options available that would be aimed at WvWvW. While healing shouts does really well in a 2v2 or 3v3 or dungeons, we could have a new shout as the 30 pts Tactics reward that doubles your toughness for x seconds but reduces your damage by x% and so forth. Instead of reducing the damage you take by a certain percentage or healing you for small amounts which are only significant in small fights, lets have a few options for larger fights also. A short CD ability that heals you for the amount of damage you take in the next 3-4 seconds could be another idea.

I talked about this for so long I’m starting to lose my train of thoughts, sorry lol.

now that I think about it, toughness/precision with either vitality or + healing might be even better because more crits means more heals from the sigils

Kendu Kuzal.3985:

Been posting this build in a few places, but what do you think about this for survival? Also makes it beneficial to stay closer to your group members. Totally different playstyle, and I’m not heavy into WvWvW yet.. But I think this is what I’ll be using. Maybe I’ll get destroyed… I dunno.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fIMQNApeUncOEFcyDOPgDZAA9ALwuyU4n0DyQLNA;T8AZTSmUNpYiKLTWissZ5ySm1ijxGHHeOMbA

Copy Paste

It looks pretty durable but I’d swap the rifle for a sword/warhorn so you can get away when things get rough. If you’re in a situation where you need to use a ranged weapon such as attacking a keep you can always switch at that time to it. You might want to check out the Healing Signet too, paired with the Adrenal Health and any regen buff you might get you’ll have some strong ticks on you.

This is something that I’ve been looking into myself but with 10 points in Discipline for lower Signet CD so I can keep fury up more often. I’m also interested in a toughness/power gear set where I’d be giving up precision either for vitality or + healing, not sure yet. With fury and a little bit from gear I would be happy with a 30%-35% crit chance. I was also planning on going with chance on crit to steal life and next attack grants life on weapon swap.

VictorTroska.3725:

Its alright but I wouldnt use it. I have been doing many builds in WvWvW and for me, only two builds shine (100% melee). One is highly defensive support build (Shouts heal Hammer+Mace WH or Banner heal Hammer+Mace WH. Another is fast killing extremely mobile build, aka Sword+Shield/GS (not glass cannon version with Mobile Strikes).

But I guess everyone plays different. I personally shy away from Rifle warrior, I find it too “meh”, besides my Norn buddies would just laugh at me.

Try condition damage Bow/Shield + Sword, it’s pretty strong and while it is a condition build, it’s very bursty and if several opponents are stacked up, you can finish them all at the same time. I’m still working on farming the gear for it.

you’d be surprised how many people similar to Lohengrin exist.. last week I joined 2 different WvWvW guilds on Far Shiverpeaks EU, the leaders looked like they knew what they were doing, for both they were warriors and commanders in WvWvW and then the unimaginable happened: they started talking…

there’s a saying “don’t raise your voice, improve your arguments” … you should think about that

lol people are complaining about melee WvWvW survivability and you come with a glass cannon solution

The post has been in the top area of the first page for about 3 days, I’m sure it was read by some staff members, at least moderators… I don’t expect anything to happen too soon, but maybe one day… I at least tried (fingers crossed)

PanH.1957:

@ Pachi : Yeah, without being babysited by a group, like in the video, that’s impossible.
If you look at the video, there’s at least a Mesmer and a Guardian with him. The mesmer use Moa (and other stuff ofc), while the Guardian use the Tome to heal the whole group. No wondering how he does that. So the warrior should be considered as a carry ? Quite odd in a mmo.

I think this thread very interesting. Because the warrior use mainly melee weapons, but his survival at melee is lower than the one of ranged classes (because the melee brings disadvantage, but I don’t see the advantage).

exactly, there is no advantage to playing a melee at the moment, you’re simply much much more efficient as ranged and that’s a shame considering that most of our weapons are melee, arguably even the bow

In all fairness while impressive the video is very miss-leading. The warrior in the video is part of an organized party, decked in gear and constantly has regeneration and protection on himself while if you check the rest of the battle field it’s full of green arrows from sub lvl 80 enemies. If you check the video I posted Matale 7, I can take on 3 or 4 of those by myself and kill them all in a pretty tankish build and gear. Sub 80s are not that difficult, I don’t know how many of you saw Mazidra’s mesmer WvWvW video. As a mesmer Mazidra fights up to 5 or 6 opponents at the same time and wins, however they’re all sub 80s: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=882KeHO9btw

Being lvl 80 and having the top gear makes a huuuge difference. If the warrior in the video was to fight equivalent opponents to his party, he’d be getting smashed pretty fast and I can tell you that from experience. If you take a look at the toughness math above you’ll see that going from 1750 toughness to 2350 you’re gaining around 50% damage reduction which is a pretty big deal and the same translate to other stats also.

Bottom line again, while it looks impressive it’s not an accurate depiction of warrior survivability in WvWvW.

Asunder.2173:

If I am hearing this properly, I find it very difficult to understand your logic. People are complaining that they cant stand up against 2-3 players of equal skill level? Why would you? Any class should have a viable chance for 1v1 with any other class, that is called balance. But to expect to be able to compete against 2-3 other people at the same time, your asking for your char to be OP.

You’re not hearing this properly because you probably didn’t read all the posts / entire discussion. The problem is that melee warriors aren’t viable in WvWvW because they go down in seconds. The current surviving mechanics aim at reducing incoming damage which is fit for smaller fights but in a WvWvW environment it just doesn’t work.

The example of going vs 2-3 other people didn’t mean to fight them and win, it meant to be able to take their damage and so something meaningful before dieing, or having an opportunity to get out. When playing melee in WvWvW in a best case scenario you’ll only have 2-3 people focusing you. That’s why reducing the incoming damage doesn’t work so well so there’s a need for a different design that would work just as well vs 1 opponent or when more are focusing. The new design would be more based on blocking/immunities and so forth. These abilities would be offered at the top of the Defense and Tactics trees, which are our defensive trees so obviously our damage would be pretty low.

They would consist of short CDs that would help the warrior stop incoming damage allowing him to go in and out of the battle and actually be productive. Right now a warrior can go into battle, use Ignore Pain and then if he manages to make it out, he won’t be able to go back in for another minute and a half being forced to use a ranged weapon. However, to be able to go in as melee, he’s obviously built that way so he’ll be doing half a job with his ranged weapon. So what’s the point then of even going melee in the first place if all you can do is fight for 5-10 seconds and then you’re out for a minute and a half? And then, when playing a proper ranged build, you’ll never defeat in a 1v1 any other ranged professions and will have a really tough time vs just about everyone you encounter.

The thread aims at asking for new survivability abilities that would allow a warrior to participate as melee in WvWvW since that’s what most of his weapon choices are, very much the way guardians or thieves or mesmers are able to. Instead of mitigating damage through damage reduction, it needs to be short CDs that stop all damage.

Don’t get this the wrong way, I’m not asking for a warrior to be capable of going first in vs a zerg and survive. However if you’re smart enough to analyze the fight, find a good spot to attack from, something like the side or whatever, where the entire zerg won’t switch to you, only 2-3 people, you should be able to do something, that’s what I’m asking for, not run for your life the moment you get in as it is right now.

Braxxus.2904:

stefanplc

then go make a thread about it, this one concerns the issue of poor melee warrior survivability in WvWvW and sticking to the topic is important if we’ll get anything constructive done

My point, granted made in a sarcastic manner, was that compared to other classes especially if you were to drop any more ‘utility/mobility’ from warriors they would be a rock with 1 button.

I know, I didn’t mean to sound offensive (sorry if I was) but even if you just mention a little bit about other professions and hint at a possible nerf it’s bound that the thread will end up going other places. People are pretty sensitive when it comes to nerfing their professions.

If you read my suggestions above as the 30 point rewards for Defensive and Tactics, you’ll see that they’re nothing OP but versatile enough to make melee viable and interesting. After all, the large majority of warrior weapons are melee, even the bow arguably since it works much better at close range.

Braxxus.2904:

Tom Gore.4035:

Now you’re starting to make sense, stefan. I’m all for more short damage immunities, as long as they also make you drop significant utility / mobility or DPS.

Sounds good….

They need to apply this line of thinking to thieves/mesmers first then.

then go make a thread about it, this one concerns the issue of poor melee warrior survivability in WvWvW and sticking to the topic is important if we’ll get anything constructive done

Ideas would be a shorter CD on Shield Stance, much shorter CD on Ignore Pain but you only do 50% damage during it, a mobility ability similar to the warrior’s heroic leap in WoW that would just get you out of the fight on a short CD, a short CD ability that perhaps would just double the amount of toughness you have for a few seconds and so forth. Abilities that would allow you to be in the battle for a few seconds, then you need to get out and recover, go back in and so forth, nothing that would just make you an unstoppable force. They would obviously need to be balanced properly so while you are taking these defensive traits or skills you are loosing some damage.

And obviously, you can’t get them all, you’d have to pick one or the other.

Bottom line is that with the current warrior design, by playing melee you just put yourself at a disadvantage in WvWvW. You don’t have enough survivability to make any sort of difference and you either spend more time on the sides or running back after dieing. Sure, you can take out a ranged weapon and do some damage, but if your traits are build for melee, you’re not giving it 100%.

Anyways, I’m sure I said enough.

The problem is that damage reduction isn’t a proper design for large scale battles, it needs to be changed to more blocks, immunities and so forth, on shorter CDs at the cost of some damage. As previously mentioned proper traits in the Defense and Tactics tree for WvWvW, the current ones only apply to smaller battles. Blocking, immunities, in other words abilities that reduce the damage you’re taking by 100% is the better way and that’s why it works so well for other professions such mesmers, thieves and guardians. A 3 seconds block, stealth, immunity is always better than 6 seconds of 2300 toughness.

Without doing any actual math at 2260 toughness we’re looking at around 830 per hit and at 2351 around 780 per hit meaning a difference of around 50 damage per hit. That’s still around a 6% damage reduction per 90 toughness so in other words, even at that level, toughness is still better.

So 100 vitality gives roughly 1000 HP and with full toughness gear I have 20k HP. So for 100 vitality to be better than 100 toughness, 100 toughness would need to decrease the damage you’re taking by 5% or less. 5% of 20k HP is 1000.

This is obviously ignoring condition damage, just direct damage.

Red Falcon.8257:

stefan could you please do some tests against this same Risen Corrupter with your armor?
I need numbers for 3.2k armor, 3.4k armor and 3.5k armor.

I already calculated that between 2400 and 2700 armor there is a 20% damage reduction difference, but only 10% between 2700 and 3000.
DRs almost halve the damage reduction. I need to know how bad DR is with further armor stacking.

PS: You can find the mob in Orr, just outside the northern outpost.

Vs a Risen Putrifier – it was the closest mob in a good spot where I could run in and out and test the damage I was taking. The numbers are the hits I was taking from regular damage, not special attacks and non-crits.

2351 Toughness – 3623 Armor
776 795 755 769 778 825 794 775 784 799

2260 Toughness – 3471 Armor
833 838 823 768 829 855 839 852 845 820

2170 Toughness – 3381 Armor
880 842 882 865 887 859 906 872 855 887

2102 Toughness – 3010 Armor
902 884 889 897 906 913 918 961 950 958 945

2069 Toughness – 2917 Armor
956 942 970 984 1010 987 958 932 1002 970

1968 Toughness – 2392 Armor
1149 1197 1122 1193 1223 1167 1223 1189 1206 1183

1861 Toughness – 2164 Armor
1351 1260 1231 1272 1250 1377 1245 1352 1227 1246 1296

1765 Toughness – 1947 Armor
1549 1640 1585 1565 1508 1439 1498 1450 1498 1466 1489 1527 14801492

If you’d like to do the math that would be great!

seithan.4823:

warhorn is trully underated

my build offers 100% swiftness uptime from Signet of Rage so Shield is better in that case

it could mean that you’ll get more survivability from a mix of vitality and toughness regardless of how much condition removal you have

@ Red Falcon: that is a good point you’re making, i’ll reply tomorrow with some numbers as to what damage I was taking so you can compare with your math.. i thought it would be just linear all the way through

I’m just going to abandon this thread personally because people can’t read or stick to a topic properly… i think i’ve said the same thing 50 times now and they still don’t get it replying with garbage and nonsense… there’s nothing constructive going on here

the amount of idiocy for example in Loco’s comment is just way past normal limits

@Tom Gore: instead of posting dumb troll posts why don’t you read through a little bit as it this has been mentioned several times. Of course there would be a balance where for extra survivability you’d drop damage and other advantages. As an example someone having 30 pts into defense and 30 pts into tactics at this point in the game would do pretty crap damage with either the bow or the rifle. To actually do high damage with those weapons you need to drop points into Strength and Arms. So one simple request would simply be to have better rewards in the defense and tactics tree so you can actually participate in large fights as melee.

This thread also doesn’t refer to other classes being better or not and comparison between them, it simply points out that melee warrior isn’t viable and needs more survivability in order to be.

Zoner.1765:

Your problem is not the class, but of tactics and force projection.

Zerg v Zerg moving first (and almost always alone) is going to get you shot by everyone with a ranged weapon all at the same time. You need to move as a unit with other people, or bring firepower to counter zergs (arrow carts, balista).

Get 2-4 mesmers to chain pull people out of the enemy front line for you, until their force is smaller than yours etc.

Please read all the posts I wrote even after the main one. I explained a scenario of a balanced 10 vs 10 fight where I won’t go in like an idiot solo because obviously I would die. As the fights progresses I would try and fight a good entry spot, probably from the side which would only make 2 or 3 of my enemies start switching to me, not the entire zerg. Well even with a smart play like that, the moment 2 or more start focusing me I need to get out as fast as I can or I will die. Without 100% uptime on swiftness, condition removal and savage leap you won’t even make it 2-3 seconds on your retreat, you’ll just die there without actually doing anything productive.

Guardians, thieves, mesmers and others are able to productively play their professions in melee range because they have the tools to survive it but I was a warrior, where the large majority of available weapons to my professions are melee can’t. Not only can I not play melee in WvWvW but even as ranged I’m weaker than other ranged classes and I’ll rarely win a 1v1 vs a ranger or a mesmer or thief using a rifle or a bow.

But again, I’m not saying to fight in the mist of 3+ people and survive and kill opponents one after the other because that would be OP. There needs to be a proper balance between damage and defense, but we should also get ACTUAL defense. I’m saying give me a chance to go in, do something, run out, analyze the fight and go back in, be active and be successful if I’m good. At this point in time the moment you go in you already need to figure out how to get out because you’re about to die within the first few seconds. I believe the current survivability design is designed more towards small fights which are often met in sPvP and we don’t have any options for WvWvW fights. Toughness is pretty good in 1v1s because that bonus HP that it sort of translates into takes a little longer for 1 person to go through, healing shouts do the same thing and so forth. In comparison other professions have the required tools to participate in larger PvP fights through tools such as stealth, ton of immunity spells, clones and so forth. The only reason right now to equip a melee set is to make your escape, our best option for dmg in WvWvW are ranged weapons.

Braxxus.2904:

stefanplc.5234:

None of the people that I fought in my video were exactly top notch in skill, gear or even level.

Perhaps that guardian you talk about thought the same thing…
Just saying.

Anyways, if your point is:
“Guardians are better than warriors” then yes everyone knows this. Most people, if you look at the actual pvp forum and even a number of people here on the warrior forum, understand the warrior is pretty lackluster in PvP. Most polls of the players put us somewhere in the bottom tier in terms of class balance and power when it comes to TPvP (where balance matters).

I was only pointing out that you have in your video constant 1v3’s and such where you not only survive like said guardian you mention but win as well, so….

Well in regards to the guardian, it was pretty clear he was going to kill me if I didn’t leave, my advantage was that I had a little bit more mobility.

My point is not that other classes are better or OP or anything like that. My point is very simple: in the current state melee warriors are not viable in WvWvW due to low survivability and particularly in larger PvP fights not 2v2 or 3v3 as often met in sPvP. I don’t think that the current design which reduces a % of the incoming damage works and I suggested a new one and I’m sure there are also other ways to do it. I would simply just like to be able to go in WvWvW and be just as successful by playing melee as I would be playing a rifle or bow build.

Braxxus.2904:

stefanplc

and look at the last minute or so where I fight a guardian together with 1-2 other people and eventually I just give up because all of us couldn’t kill him and he killed the other 2 people that were with me. I WANT THAT kind of survivability too.

Within the first 1:30 of that video you do a 1v3 and down 2 of the opponents while managing to survive and get away to heal up… I think you already have what you want.

Throwing out hyperbole and strawmen doesn’t help your case btw.

WvWvW isn’t balanced, isn’t MEANT to be balanced, and never will be balanced. Same with SPvP. Balance happens at the TPvP level. ANet were very clear about this from the very beginning of information releases about GW2 before the betas even got underway.

Now, are warriors balanced? No, they’re pretty underwhelming in TPvP. But in WvWvW and SPvP you don’t need to be balanced to contribute, follow the zerg, range spam, gank, etc. Hell you can be a longbow sword/sword warrior and succeed in WvWvW depending on gear/level and size of the zerg around you.

None of the people that I fought in my video were exactly top notch in skill, gear or even level. I’ve met a lot of opponents in WvWvW of just about every profession and had some solid somewhat long fights vs them. If even one of those people would have replaced any of my opponents in those 1v2 or 1v3 situations things would have went differently.

Proeliator.8740:

Those are interesting suggestions but it wouldn’t take much tweaking to make us unkillable. You’re also talking about a very specific request by you which is to be able to get in and out by being able to do you damage and then retreating without dying/taking damage even when being focused by a lot of enemy players. I think that’s kinda the definition of being OP.

The short cooldowns on defensive skills combined with self heals, health regen, high defense, and high hp pools is bordering on unkillable especially in a shout build. With a 5 sec ignore pain every 30, 3-4 sec shield block on an even lower cooldown, and throw in some dodges and evasive maneuvers and the enemy would only have a super short window to kill you between your heals. If you’re a shout build constantly cleansing and healing the only thing that may have a shot at it would be a zerg focus fire or glass cannons and even then I dunno.

I’m a little obsessed with class balance having played so many PVP oriented games and I’m still always surprised that people seem oblivious to how easily something can become OP with just minor tweaks. I think the balance in this game is actually pretty good and it’s that very reason that people feel weak because with great balance comes actually dying because things are even so you won’t always win.

That being said shortening cooldowns may have some potential I’m just not sure you can do it without making us OP

Well I’m not saying having all of them, Heroic Leap or shorter CD on Ignore Pain could be the 2 picks for the 30 pts into Defense trait, you get one or the other. And my examples weren’t even concrete balanced examples, just suggestions for a survivability direction that could allow us to play as melee in WvWvW. If you’re going 30 pts into Defense and 30 pts into Tactics you’re not exactly doing high damage. Both of these trees strike me as defensive trees and they could have more options that would allow you to actually participate as melee in WvWvW all the way up in the 30 pts traits. For example healing shouts won’t do much for you in a WvWvW, as they’ll only buy you 2 more seconds of surviving however a blocking skill for a few seconds seconds on a similar CD would be more valuable. This way, the shouts healing trait would be more preferred in dungeons and smaller fights where the blocking or immunity or mobility or w/e it is would be better in WvWvW.

Like I said, the examples aren’t thought out concrete examples, just suggestions and ideas for a new design because as it is right now it just doesn’t work too well. There should be a proper balance between defense and damage and if you want to play melee in WvWvW where there’s a lot of damage flying all over the place, you’ll obviously need to lose some damage for the sake of defense, however ACTUAL defense not 1 extra second before you die.

The reason toughness or “resilience” as it was called in WoW worked so well in that game for a warrior was due to healers. If I would have constant heals on me, then stacking toughness for survivability would work and in most situations I’d be fine. But since there are no healers and our personal heals are pretty small, a large amount of toughness just adds 2-3 more hits before you die which is complete crap if you think about it. There is no other option either, increasing vitality or both wouldn’t fix it, that’s why I’m suggesting a blocking or immunity approach which would have the same effect vs 1 opponent or more, not making us OP.

Proeliator.8740:

This thread actually reminds me of another very similar a few days ago may have been same OP?

Generally speaking if you’re running towards the enemy zerg you will be the target of focus fire every time. 2+ players focusing you should either make you retreat or die every time or else the game would be melee > range.

You seem to be complaining more about the Meta of WVW rather than the balance of melee vs ranged. The mass range kittenergs tend to deter melee because unless you have more than 1-2 melee charging in you’re going to die to focus fire as it should be.

Steph the reason I’m giving you grief is because you’re listings all of these complaints to sum up that you want the survivability to withstand focus fire by 2-3+ people. Many of us have and do get in and out of concentrated formations doing a lot of damage and then get out again. The reason damage is a valid thing to discuss here is because warriors have outstanding damage output. If you want the survivability of a guardian you will have to nerf our damage.

Well that’s exactly what I’m saying, introduce survivability traits and CDs that nerfs your damage when you’re using them. For example during Shield Stance you’re doing no damage, an Ignore Pain that’s on a shorter CD but you only do 50% damage and so forth.

I dont expect to go first into a zerg and survive, but if there’s a large PvP group where people are constantly fighting all over the place, there’s nothing I can really do as melee. I’m offering as an example, where we’re fighting 10 of us vs 10 of them, that I would go around and attack from the side and out of those 10 people only 2 or 3 would switch to me. I don’t expect to live forever, but I do expect to be able to hold my ground for 10 seconds or have a chance at getting out or something like that, actually be productive as melee and not go down right away. Versus a group of players that know a little bit about PvP and what they’re doing, I have close to no chance at surviving. I would even be happy with a skill similar to “Heroic Leap” I think it’s called in WoW where I’d be able to jump away like 2000 yards on somewhat of a short CD, like 30 seconds or so, so that I can constantly go in and out and do something.

Right now as melee, vs a group of organized people in a balanced fight number wise, I go in, I do a little bit of damage, use all my defensive CDs and then I’ll die for sure. I could do more damage and more control as ranged as this point in the game.

My suggestion pretty much is that instead of reducing a certain % of damage, to replace that with becoming immune to the damage so it has the same effect when 1 person is focusing you as it would when 3 people are. I would personally like to see in the Defensive tree traits such as “Ignore Pain CD is now 30 seconds but you also only do 50% of your normal damage” “Shield Stance CD reduced by 50% and duration increased by 1 second” and so forth, traits that give you survivability without making you OP. It’s not like you’d be immune to damage and just dropping people left and right. In order to be viable as melee in WvWvW you need short CDs that either reduce the damage drastically or all of it so you can run in and out of a fight constantly and not once every minute and a half.

kyokara.1867:

I agree thieves need to be toned down a little, they arguably have more survivability than any class due to their stealth mechanics while also doing more damage than any class and I doubt that’s intended.

I will have to re-evaluate my WvW experience when I face better servers then. I guess there are advantages to being on a low ranked server!

In any case, lets stick to the topic of this thread which is melee warrior survivability in WvWvW. Even if you go to the extreme and reduce his damage to half, I’m still dead in a matter of 3-4 seconds and that’s my point. Once Ignore Pain is on CD, I have no business participating in a large group PvP as melee. So if that’s the case, what’s even the point of going in as melee in the first place? It’s not like I’m getting much done, I’m just burning through survivability CDs without much to show for it. In the current state of the game I’d bring much more to the table with a rifle and a bow, constantly doing damage, taking people out etc…

The problem is we have 2-3 times as many melee options as we have ranged, shouldn’t melee actually be viable in WvWvW? I would personally really like to play that without having to organize a whole group to babysit me.

The reason melee works in sPvP is because in most fights you’re only encountering a 2v2 or a 3v3 so there’s far less pressure.

This is also from experience and from trying out tens of builds trying to make melee work. As I’m sure you can tell from the video, I’m not exactly a pvp idiot either, I’m fairly decent.

kyokara.1867:

There seems to be a lot of theorycrafting in this thread, along the lines of IF the warrior runs into competent players, then blahblahblah he will die.
But this isn’t tpvp, this is WvW. Unless you are on the top 6-7 WvW servers, most of the people you face in WvW probably won’t even be level 80 (at least that is my experience on Yak’s Bend). You have to see what the reality of the situation is, versus what it could be.

I’m on the #2 arguably the #1 server in EU. Most people by now are 80 and have all of their gear as do I. Unless they’re bad you can’t play melee, the moment you go in you become targeted and you die really fast. The first time you go in, you’ll make it out probably due to Ignore Pain but then that’s it for the next minute and a half and you haven’t accomplished much either. I’m not even talking about going first into a group of 10 people, but actually doing it in a smart way, find a opportune spot, come in from the side and only have 2-3 people switching to you. Even in the case of 2-3 people switching to you, it’s the same situation, Ignore Pain within the first 4-5 seconds and then you need to run or die.

A few days ago I almost got 2 shot by a thief luckly Defy Pain popped. That shouldn’t happen, what’s even the point of toughness then?

@ Proeliator

I think you might be having some reading issues as I’m not discussing damage and I’m not discussing me going vs 2-3 people. I’m complaining about the fact that melee warriors are not viable in WvWvW. I’m talking about how in larger groups of PvP you just can’t play a melee warrior because you go down in seconds even if you’re building yourself in full defensive mode. I specifically explained a 10 vs 10 scenario. Other professions such as a guardian for example or a thief or a mesmer are able to play melee-ish in such situations.

The Ignore Pain icon sits there as a buff for 5 seconds so I assumed that the immunity was there too. The reason I took signet of fury over say signet of Stamina or Dolyak Signet is because using it I can get my adrenaline back really fast and continue regenning HP and then I can also get adrenaline really quick when I need to do an AoE Hammer stun to avoid taking more damage (for 2 seconds). After Ignore Pain and Shake it Off it’s the best defensive trait you can get, far better than +90 toughness.

Vitality is better vs condition damage and toughness is much better vs direct damage. If you have some pretty decent condition removal you don’t need to stack vitality. Toughness also gets better with healing and since I’m playing a control build I can get more heals off. I’m usually saving shake it off for more opportune moments in order to have a chance to remove a stun, a fear or a cripple.

There are a total of 8 professions and over half of them are accused as being OP in some shape of form, thieves, mesm, guardian, gs warriors and so forth. Again I’m not discussing damage I’m discussing survivability in large PvP groups which has nothing to do with those.

Please spend more time reading before posting random replies.

well according to your reply I probably just picked the wrong profession then and I should have went Guardian, since they seem to be able to do it just fine

or a thief

Also, I’m not talking about damage here, I’m discussing pure survival. As a melee warrior there is no possible way you can gear up and participate into a fight vs decent opponents as melee in WvWvW, you’ll go down really fast. You always need to be a part of a team and hope they’ll be able to carry you. If they switched to a guardian instead they would have a much easier time.

And again, I’m not saying you going solo vs 2-5 people. I’m giving as an example an environment of 10 vs 10 where you’re pretty much useless as melee unless its a very organized group babysitting you.

I understand what you’re saying but you’re running into a group that isn’t as organized or as good as you guys are… I can do fine vs a few opponents that aren’t as good as I am but when you’re facing several opponents of equal level melee just wont work as a warrior in WvWvW. Guardians on the other hand are able to play melee and be very productive at the same time.

I think melee warrior survivability in WvWvW needs some looking at. The large majority of warrior weapons are melee and from a ranged perspective, we’re not really meant to beat anyone with a pure ranged build.

Some people may argue that our longbow is one of the best AoE weapons in the game and that the burst from the rifle is pretty insane, and while that may be true vs a sitting target against a competent player with 2 proper dodges you’re dead meat.

Putting 30 points into Defense is a pretty serious kitten for a warrior’s DPS and not because you loose some power or precision or condition damage or even mobility but because you loose very important traits.

Going 30 points into any of the other trees actually gives you something meaningful. With 30 points in Discipline you get to break imobilize and faster adrenaline gain, 30 points in Arms and you get a really nuts finisher with the quickness trait and not to mention vital traits for bleed builds and also rifle, 30 points into Strength increases your damage quite a lot overall through all the trait options and decreases your physical utility CDs making the 100b build very viable.

30 points into Defense should make you much more durable allowing you to actually play melee in a WvWvW environment. I don’t mean allow you to actually go in first vs 20-30 people and have high expectations, but at least be able to run in vs 2-3 opponents and not get torn to pieces in a matter of seconds.

I’m running a hammer warrior with around 2300 toughness (including the 300 from Defense) and stacked with all the survivability utility skills I can get and if 2 or 3 competent players even look at me I’m pretty much gone. My best survivability skill in my entire build is my sword/shield weapon set because I can leap away and then shield stance.

I think the main issue is that the warrior in theory needs to focus on damage reduction in order to survive. I don’t know how much 2300 toughness reduces the incoming damage but it is pretty much the most you can get. Lets assume it reduces the damage I take around 40-50%, at my 20k HP that basically means I gain another 10k HP top which vs 2-3 players is another 3 seconds of living.

I think that approach overall is wrong because increasing or decreasing the amount of damage toughness reduces isn’t a possible fix. If you increase the amount of damage toughness reduces then we’ll simply be ok in larger fights and just OP in 1v1s. I think a better approach is to somehow scale the amount of toughness you have with an immunity ability. So say something such as "for every 500 toughness you get to block all incoming damage for 1 second with a 15-20 seconds CD. A player like myself would then be able to be immune to all the damage for around 4-5 seconds every 20 seconds, then run out, recover a little bit, analyze the fight, find a good angle and go back in. This is just an example, I’m sure other solutions exist also.

At this point, all I can do is go in with my Hammer AoE stun, then do an AoE knockback, use Ignore Pain within the first 2 seconds and once that’s done, get my shield out for my Shield Stance running away and hopefully make it out with a Savage Leap. I can only do this once every 1 minute and a half because I have to wait for the Ignore Pain CD. Even during my initial charge I didn’t get that much accomplished other than burning through all my CDs and I really would have been much more successful using a rifle or bow instead.

I really want to play melee and use all the weapon sets available however right now I can’t with the current game mechanics. I have made it possible to some extent with a Hammer Sword/Shield and even published a video which I’ll link bellow however I have to be 10x better than my opponents to pull it through.

If you have the time please also check Matale 7-2 and look at the last minute or so where I fight a guardian together with 1-2 other people and eventually I just give up because all of us couldn’t kill him and he killed the other 2 people that were with me. I WANT THAT kind of survivability too.

I hope something will be done in the near future to allow me to play my warrior the way I like it, as a melee in WvWvW. Thanks for taking the time to read this!
- Matale

I think melee warrior survivability in WvWvW needs some looking at. The large majority of warrior weapons are melee and from a ranged perspective, we’re not really meant to beat anyone with a pure ranged build.

Some people may argue that our longbow is one of the best AoE weapons in the game and that the burst from the rifle is pretty insane, and while that may be true vs a sitting target against a competent player with 2 proper dodges you’re dead meat.

Putting 30 points into Defense is a pretty serious kitten for a warrior’s DPS and not because you loose some power or precision or condition damage or even mobility but because you loose very important traits.

Going 30 points into any of the other trees actually gives you something meaningful. With 30 points in Discipline you get to break imobilize and faster adrenaline gain, 30 points in Arms and you get a really nuts finisher with the quickness trait and not to mention vital traits for bleed builds and also rifle, 30 points into Strength increases your damage quite a lot overall through all the trait options and decreases your physical utility CDs making the 100b build very viable.

30 points into Defense should make you much more durable allowing you to actually play melee in a WvWvW environment. I don’t mean allow you to actually go in first vs 20-30 people and have high expectations, but at least be able to run in vs 2-3 opponents and not get torn to pieces in a matter of seconds.

I’m running a hammer warrior with around 2300 toughness (including the 300 from Defense) and stacked with all the survivability utility skills I can get and if 2 or 3 competent players even look at me I’m pretty much gone. My best survivability skill in my entire build is my sword/shield weapon set because I can leap away and then shield stance.

I think the main issue is that the warrior in theory needs to focus on damage reduction in order to survive. I don’t know how much 2300 toughness reduces the incoming damage but it is pretty much the most you can get. Lets assume it reduces the damage I take around 40-50%, at my 20k HP that basically means I gain another 10k HP top which vs 2-3 players is another 3 seconds of living.

I think that approach overall is wrong because increasing or decreasing the amount of damage toughness reduces isn’t a possible fix. If you increase the amount of damage toughness reduces then we’ll simply be ok in larger fights and just OP in 1v1s. I think a better approach is to somehow scale the amount of toughness you have with an immunity ability. So say something such as "for every 500 toughness you get to block all incoming damage for 1 second with a 15-20 seconds CD. A player like myself would then be able to be immune to all the damage for around 4-5 seconds every 20 seconds, then run out, recover a little bit, analyze the fight, find a good angle and go back in.

At this point, all I can do is go in with my Hammer AoE stun, then do an AoE knockback, use Ignore Pain within the first 2 seconds and once that’s done, get my shield out for my Shield Stance running away and hopefully make it out with a Savage Leap. I can only do this once every 1 minute and a half because I have to wait for the Ignore Pain CD. Even during my initial charge I didn’t get that much accomplished other than burning through all my CDs and I really would have been much more successful using a rifle or bow instead.

I really want to play melee and use all the weapon sets available however right now I can’t with the current game mechanics. I have made it possible to some extent with a Hammer Sword/Shield and even published a video which I’ll link bellow however I have to be 10x better than my opponents to pull it through.

If you have the time please also check Matale 7-2 and look at the last minute or so where I fight a guardian together with 1-2 other people and eventually I just give up because all of us couldn’t kill him and he killed the other 2 people that were with me. I WANT THAT kind of survivability too.

I hope something will be done in the near future to allow me to play my warrior the way I like it, as a melee in WvWvW. Thanks for taking the time to read this!
- Matale

I play a melee warrior in WvWvW and it performs pretty well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=5hCCpq7e624
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6RtnSyz62A

i feel though that there was a similar sound before, metal sound, but it sounded just better, not sure how to explain it because I frankly don’t remember it

The runes that are supposed to increase Bleed Duration by 15% for 2 runes used don’t work on my warrior. This includes Rune of the Afflicted, Centaur and Krait

check the original posted, added a follow up video

Title says it all. I’m not sure if the sounds got changed recently or I just never noticed before but every time I play my warrior and jump around I sound like I’m carrying a bag full of frying pans and other kitchen supplies. It doesn’t sound warrior-ish or heroic at all. If my warrior was a female I bet I would sound like a housewife.

Glad you guys are enjoying it!

@Rukia.4802 One night I had like 5-10 people chase me in WvWvW all over the map for literally something like 10 minutes and at some point, one of them, a GS warrior was actually starting to get pretty close to me. While I’m running away I see him trying to throw his GS at me in order to cripple me so I Shield Stance and reflected that at him, but because I had the 10 points in Tactics not only did I cripple him but I also imobilized him for 1 second. I laughed pretty hard and shortly after they just gave up.

Seeing people hitting themselves really hard with their ranged attacks during my Shield Stance is also very rewarding.

i’d suggest just waiting until you get home, at the end of the video I also explain a few things plus I show the stats and gear I’m using

I appreciate all the kind words, glad you guys enjoyed it! Don’t forget to subscribe for more! Thanks!