Guild Wars 2

-reduce cd
-reduce base passive heal and scale it with healing power
-buff active heal

bobomb.5209:

killahmayne.9518:

It would be very stupid to completely rework a heal that 80% of warriors use and is a good part of what keeps warriors viable in tPvP. That my friend is called knee-jerk balancing and drastically changing it so much can come with unintended consequences.

Besides, Healing Signet doesn’t need a major overhaul. All A-Net needs to do is lower the regen from it about 50-60 points or so and make the active worth using, or perhaps make it scale differently. That is all. Tired of people trying to reinvent the wheel in what they perceive is balance when simplicity is the better answer in this case.

You might remember that Berserkers stance was changed. Not really any unintended consequences there. The only consequence is that people cannot unload all of their conditions and expect someone to go down now.

Difference is, Berserker Stance pre-rework was barely ever used at all. And this was much before warriors ever became viable in tPvP play so the chances of unintended consequences of this rework was quite low.

Healing Signet, on the other hand is part of what keeps a warrior viable in tPvP play and just totally reworking it because people say is OP is knee-jerk balancing; you risk breaking the class in that mode of play and besides it doesn’t make sense at all to totally rework it.

Exedore.6320:

Ahlen.7591:

Are we still discussing this? Anyone who thinks that heal signet is OP is ignorant of it’s downsides.

-Inability to counter burst or sudden damage.
-Especially weak to poison (Other heals only require poison to be removed for one second before healing, poison is essentially 100% effective against heal signet)

This combined with Warriors general lack of Blind/Protection (1 blind, 1 protection if heavily traited) makes healing signet really not OP.

And people that don’t think it’s too good are looking at it in a vacuum.

Yes, Healing Signet is not the best against burst, but warriors have other abilities to avoid burst (Shield Stance, Endure Pain, Berserker Stance, greatsword whirlwind, etc) and also have the option of CC’ing their opponent in many builds.

Yes, it’s weak to poison. But not every class has access to poison or a good way to apply it. And not everyone is a condition build, so taking sigil of doom isn’t the best option. Balancing around the assumption that the opponent has a specific boon or condition is bad design. When it does, it cements certain builds of certain classes as being required in a team. You already see that with guardians because of their wealth of group stability.

If warriors are too weak if a specific ability or trait was not used, it doesn’t mean the ability should stay as-is; it’s further evidence that it’s too good. Instead, that specific ability should be toned down so that others can be boosted, allowing for more variety.

While we’re looking past the vacuum, another thing that gets overlooked is the adrenaline gain aspect of Cleansing Ire that shoots warriors to full adrenaline, giving them a constant full benefit of Adrenal Health. Since Cleansing Ire is so common in warrior builds, it’s hard to say if Healing Signet is fully to blame. Without that adrenaline gain from being hit, Adrenal Health wouldn’t be nearly as effective.

I will partly agree with Deimos Tel Arin.7391 that Healing Signet is not way too good, but probably just a little too good. Shaving some of the passive off along with a cooldown reduction or increase to the active heal would help balance it and add skill in deciding when to use it and when to save it.

If they shave anything off of healing signet, it would no longer need to exist. Warriors would just switch to healing surge, and the forums would whine about that.

Cleansing ire is common in warrior builds because it’s nearly impossible to play without it.

I already discussed not dealing with warrior heals in a vacuum. Warrior defenses are as follows – one/two blocks (very few warriors use a shield in PvP/WvW), basically zero sources of protection, one blind if you actually use that weapon.

A warriors survivability is almost purely based on their health and self heals. They have few other sources of mitigation.

Silhouette.5631:

since when is sustain a warriors strongest attribute? No no you see thats a GUARDIAN your thinking of. See warriors are the ones that rip stuff to shreds. Or atleast thats how I THOUGHT things worked.

P.S. condition necros render EVERYTHING useless

Yeah, too bad at some point the meta wass filled with people who couldn’t be ripped to shreds. Like Guardians (even med ones). This made war useless.

Not saying sustain should be one of the strongest attributes, but now it is.

The Healing Signet is mostly about not being nuked down, able to kite your enemy and that your environment offers ways to be line out of sight for ranged.

Once two people start focusing a Healing Signet warrior that isn’t kiting, he’s screwed. Healing Signet is a 1v1 beast, which I think is fair for warriors to be good at. But as soon as you go above it, 1v2 with equally skilled players, a warrior has no chance unless you’re playing on maps like Skyhammer cause it’s great for kiting once low on HP.

What Healing Signet SHOULD NOT get is a flat nerf, it’ll break warriors into uselessness. What it needs is a overhaul and a gimmick. As I mentioned earlier, Healing Signet could be remade into “Brawler Signet” where the closer you are to an enemy, the more it heals. This means that kited warriors and warriors fleeing, gets healed less from the passive.

Along that, the active needs to be buffed, either more healing, giving a boon/boons or something gimmicky.

i don’t really care what happens to Healing Signet so long as the Active is incentivized.

JonPeters.5630:

The biggest problem is IMO is actually the active heal. If we reduce the passive without doing something to make the active useful, we are just creating a different problem. Truly the active on this skill right now is in the following place. When I see someone press it I think “No No No don’t do that!” We are discussion some options here so if you want this to be constructive give suggestions towards improving the active. Reducing the passive is easy to do but we will not do it without solving the other problem. Also we will not greatly reduce it because it is giving Warriors a sense of sturdiness that we want their profession to have. Without strong heals, Warriors feel too much like everyone else. Setting them apart with strong heals has been good for changing their playstyle feel, but we agree it needs some tweaks.

Jon

Jon I disagree with you for the following reason:

Is a warrior with HS and AH an attrition build? If not, why does he have such powerful sustainability?
Can a Necro kill such a warrior with a condition build that doesn’t focus on Terror+ Burning burst? Once again, if not, how come that build has better sustain and attrition potential compared to the class with attrition as part of it’s design philosophy?

JonPeters.5630:

The biggest problem is IMO is actually the active heal. If we reduce the passive without doing something to make the active useful, we are just creating a different problem. Truly the active on this skill right now is in the following place. When I see someone press it I think “No No No don’t do that!” We are discussion some options here so if you want this to be constructive give suggestions towards improving the active. Reducing the passive is easy to do but we will not do it without solving the other problem. Also we will not greatly reduce it because it is giving Warriors a sense of sturdiness that we want their profession to have. Without strong heals, Warriors feel too much like everyone else. Setting them apart with strong heals has been good for changing their playstyle feel, but we agree it needs some tweaks.

Jon

The passive effect, in addition to a slight nerf, could have its effect be within a 3 second interval (but 3 times stronger, of course), much like the new Mesmer’s heal. I feel that this makes it easier for burst builds to counter-play the signet. This idea can even be pushed further, and have it at a 5 second interval. What do you think about it?

Alternatively, it would also be interesting to see the passive effect tied to active play. Something like, each time you gain adrenaline, you get an heal tick.

For the active effect, this is a completely random brainstorming idea that might not even fit: what about super speed, for chasing purposes? Maybe a combination of super speed and quickness, like 3 seconds each, to make sure this skill is used more often for offensive chasing than defensive retreating, but of course, using it to escape would still be an option, and perhaps too strong of one, considering its already strong passive effect. Or maybe such an effect would be fitting for another skill instead?

JonPeters.5630:

I was simply stating that the problem is we are not going to address the issues that the passive sustain is creating until we make the active use have a place in combat so even if it is not THE PROBLEM, it is the blocking issue.

Jon

Then why were you so swift almost a year ago in nerfing ele healing signet passive? Eles didn’t get anything to make up for that. And why are you still not undoing those nerfs?

JonPeters.5630:

The biggest problem is IMO is actually the active heal. If we reduce the passive without doing something to make the active useful, we are just creating a different problem. Truly the active on this skill right now is in the following place. When I see someone press it I think “No No No don’t do that!” We are discussion some options here so if you want this to be constructive give suggestions towards improving the active. Reducing the passive is easy to do but we will not do it without solving the other problem. Also we will not greatly reduce it because it is giving Warriors a sense of sturdiness that we want their profession to have. Without strong heals, Warriors feel too much like everyone else. Setting them apart with strong heals has been good for changing their playstyle feel, but we agree it needs some tweaks.

Jon

A couple of other individuals mentioned exactly what you were saying over the past months.
SoM requires active participation to reap its passive, which makes the active of SoM necessary because the situation doesn’t always allow you to attack to heal. SoR is like a hybrid between the two considering you just need to spam a skill and not necessarily hit but considering its nerfed status it’s not ideal anyways.

The enemy of a HoT is a burst that doesn’t give them time to heal. The active could play off that and let the Warrior heal back the damage they take in say the next 2 seconds.
Eg.
Active: Base heal 800. This skill does nothing for 3 seconds, after 3 seconds you heal for 110% of the damage you took in those 3 seconds.
Where the active of healing signet is a pre-preemptive deterrent like Berzerker stance/endure pain to attacking the Warrior, but by easing off they’ll only get a small heal.
Or make a reverse situation of GW1 where using Healing Signet increases your defenses temporarily and heals. Eg. Gain protection or gain 300 toughness for 5s. Something pre-emptively done to dissuade being bursted.

Well obviously something like reducing the passive by 25% and increasing the active by a reasonable amount isn’t a realistic option unless you also increase the cooldown. Even the heal now every 16 seconds is probably a better heal than most classes get. Especially if you consider the passive portion on top of it.

The other problem is you’ve kind of left the Warrior wanting for nothing. It has strong damage, strong CC, strong utility, etc. Simply giving the utility stability, fury, immunity, etc isn’t going to work because they’d just use another utility slot for it.

So then what’s left that the Warrior could realistically use that would be powerful enough to counter a 400hps passive heal? The only thing I can think of is making the active act like Withdraw giving the Warrior a way to eject themselves from combat. But again… this isn’t something the class needs as giving them more mobility will cause a riot to form outside ANet HQ.

Seriously… if passive healing is an issue for the Warrior, the easiest thing to do to solve it is move Adrenal Health because I haven’t a clue what you can do with the signet…

[edit…]

As a side note, something just came to me when I think back to other games I’ve played, but like I mentioned before, isn’t something the Warrior necessarily needs… But you could have the activated portion induce some kind of berserker rage. Increase warrior health by 10k for 10 seconds, give them an 8k heal, increase power, toughness, and precision by 50%, make them take 10% more damage. after 10 seconds, they lose the 10k bonus health and are dealt 4k in damage.

Bad idea, I know… grasping at straws :/

ensoriki.5789:

JonPeters.5630:

The biggest problem is IMO is actually the active heal. If we reduce the passive without doing something to make the active useful, we are just creating a different problem. Truly the active on this skill right now is in the following place. When I see someone press it I think “No No No don’t do that!” We are discussion some options here so if you want this to be constructive give suggestions towards improving the active. Reducing the passive is easy to do but we will not do it without solving the other problem. Also we will not greatly reduce it because it is giving Warriors a sense of sturdiness that we want their profession to have. Without strong heals, Warriors feel too much like everyone else. Setting them apart with strong heals has been good for changing their playstyle feel, but we agree it needs some tweaks.

Jon

This has been mentioned before and I don’t disagree that the active is weak.
Signet of Malice active fits it because unlike Healing Signet the passive isn’t entirely passive given the hit requirement. Since their is that requirement whether Thieves like it or not they’ll end up using the active because multiple circumstances will arise where they do not have the leisure to attack to heal themself.

The enemy of a HoT is a burst that doesn’t give them time to heal. The active could play off that and let the Warrior heal back the damage they take in say the next 2 seconds.
Eg.
Active: Base heal 800. This skill does nothing for 2 seconds, after 2 seconds you heal for 110% of the damage you took in those 2 seconds.
Or make a reverse situation of GW1 where using Healing Signet increases your defenses temporarily and heals. Eg. Gain protection or gain 300 toughness for 5s. Something pre-emptively done to dissuade being bursted.

Whatever happened to classes having weaknesses (besides ele)?

LelouchViBritannia.3607:

ensoriki.5789:

JonPeters.5630:

The biggest problem is IMO is actually the active heal. If we reduce the passive without doing something to make the active useful, we are just creating a different problem. Truly the active on this skill right now is in the following place. When I see someone press it I think “No No No don’t do that!” We are discussion some options here so if you want this to be constructive give suggestions towards improving the active. Reducing the passive is easy to do but we will not do it without solving the other problem. Also we will not greatly reduce it because it is giving Warriors a sense of sturdiness that we want their profession to have. Without strong heals, Warriors feel too much like everyone else. Setting them apart with strong heals has been good for changing their playstyle feel, but we agree it needs some tweaks.

Jon

This has been mentioned before and I don’t disagree that the active is weak.
Signet of Malice active fits it because unlike Healing Signet the passive isn’t entirely passive given the hit requirement. Since their is that requirement whether Thieves like it or not they’ll end up using the active because multiple circumstances will arise where they do not have the leisure to attack to heal themself.

The enemy of a HoT is a burst that doesn’t give them time to heal. The active could play off that and let the Warrior heal back the damage they take in say the next 2 seconds.
Eg.
Active: Base heal 800. This skill does nothing for 2 seconds, after 2 seconds you heal for 110% of the damage you took in those 2 seconds.
Or make a reverse situation of GW1 where using Healing Signet increases your defenses temporarily and heals. Eg. Gain protection or gain 300 toughness for 5s. Something pre-emptively done to dissuade being bursted.

Whatever happened to classes having weaknesses (besides ele)?

Elaborate?

Increase the active heal at the cost of adrenaline perhaps? This would further reinstate using your healing signet as a ‘now or never’ option, as not only are you throwing away your health regen for a spike heal, you’re also using up your adrenaline.

This would allow for the active to be made significantly stronger.

Other options would be to have its active be a counter to bursty damage, which is the weakness the passive brings. Have it be a lengthy channel that blocks (e.g.: shelter) or have it boost toughness or grant protection on use for a short time.

Not sure if removing this sort of counterplay to signet is a good idea, and in all reality, a warrior’s massive base stats make bursty damage of little threat to a warrior anyway. I’m more in favor of the heal at the cost of adrenaline version.

It seems a bit odd, all the concern Jon has about defending this passive and universally disliked skill. Most warriors will tell you that this skill is braindead and deserves a big big Nerf. It actually deserves to be gutted; why do warriors get better treatment than eles?

Jon, you were so quick to gut the ele signet without any changes to the active. Why such concern for the warrior passive heal? The heal is cheese.and should be deleted imo.

hi jon, how would this fare?

at the moment, it is
passive: 392 Health + 0.05 healing power / second
active: heal 3,275 + 0.5 healing power

what if:
passive: 350 Health + 0.20 healing power / second

active:
health above 75% – heal 3,275 + 1.0 healing power
health below 75% – heal 3,275 + 3.0 healing power, recharge time -10%
health below 50% – heal 3,275 + 5.0 healing power, recharge time -20%
health below 25% – heal 3,275 + 7.0 healing power, recharge time -30%

for example, with signet mastery, 300 healing power from traits, this means

passive: 350 + 60 = 410 health per second
active:
health above 75%: heal 3,275 + 300 = 3,575, 16 seconds recharge time
health below 75%: heal 3,275 + 900 = 4,175, 14 seconds recharge time
health below 50%: heal 3,275 + 1,500 = 4,775, 12 seconds recharge time
health below 25%: heal 3,275 + 2,100 = 5,375, 10 seconds recharge time

maybe a bit overkill? O_O
the numbers need tweaking?

well the concept is, the closer to death the warrior is, the better the heal, the faster the recharge time? i wonder if this can be coded properly into the game or not? O_O

IMO the greatest thing about healing signet is that it has no activation (ie. the warrior is always fighting not healing). Perhaps to keep this theme the active should be made instant cast and the base heal increased to a useful level.

activation time reduced to 0 seconds would be good.

JonPeters.5630:

The biggest problem is IMO is actually the active heal. If we reduce the passive without doing something to make the active useful, we are just creating a different problem. Truly the active on this skill right now is in the following place. When I see someone press it I think “No No No don’t do that!” We are discussion some options here so if you want this to be constructive give suggestions towards improving the active. Reducing the passive is easy to do but we will not do it without solving the other problem. Also we will not greatly reduce it because it is giving Warriors a sense of sturdiness that we want their profession to have. Without strong heals, Warriors feel too much like everyone else. Setting them apart with strong heals has been good for changing their playstyle feel, but we agree it needs some tweaks.

Jon

I’ll copy one of my post to answer develop the signet problem.

The problem: Stat boost as a passive does not improve the gameplay, it does the total opposite.

My solution: I can’t give an universal solution but, I will give some principles and a few examples to accompany them.

• Make the bonus require some change in the gameplay: for example the guardian signet of judgement instead of reducing all incoming damages by 10%, reduce them by 15% but only if the guardian is facing the source of damages.

• Add/Improve a management system: Here an example is the thief’s infiltrator’s signet and the best instance of this in the game is the mesmer’s signet of ether. While the thief seems kind of weak, the mesmer’s passive adds a more depth to the gameplay, seriously this skill is well designed from the heals base to counterplay created by the 3 sec delay between each pulse (soooo much).

• A compromise between the passive and the active effect: the bad application but in a way which might not be expected: is the warriors signet of rage the management of adrenaline of the warrior has become such an anecdote that it is better to always have this skill of cooldown. The good example is again the signet of ether the active adds a good compromise: loosing the regenerative factor, and being able to create a huge burst through the phantasms.

On the other hand HS i really well countered with poison and burst, If you have a problem in spvp with warriors try a mesmer burst build, time your bust well and you will find out that there is not much a warrior can do apart from waiting, Yeah the heal is strong but definitely not out of control.

JonPeters.5630:

I was simply stating that the problem is we are not going to address the issues that the passive sustain is creating until we make the active use have a place in combat so even if it is not THE PROBLEM, it is the blocking issue.

Jon

The problem is that the whole Healing Signet idea is toxic and unhealthy for the game. It promotes and rewards passive play.

JonPeters.5630:

I was simply stating that the problem is we are not going to address the issues that the passive sustain is creating until we make the active use have a place in combat so even if it is not THE PROBLEM, it is the blocking issue.

Jon

Jon is right,
The warrior is easily countered with the right class and access to poison

To solve your issue, the active does have to be better in comparison, there must be a tradeoff.

people think about this game in terms of numbers now and the passive benefits heal outweigh the active heal benefits.

(392X20 = 7840)
Thats too high heal over time compared to the active for me to want to use the active

I was thinking protection but then you are playing damage mitigation which is a similar play style to Defiant Stance.

Then I thought CC, how about make that 1.25 Sec cast time and turn it into a CD in which if your opponent attacks you, he is weakened / CC

Even if its just heal self and apply weakness to target foe, I would like that. Then they are forced to save burst and mess up their rotation.

LelouchViBritannia.3607:

JonPeters.5630:

I was simply stating that the problem is we are not going to address the issues that the passive sustain is creating until we make the active use have a place in combat so even if it is not THE PROBLEM, it is the blocking issue.

Jon

Then why were you so swift almost a year ago in nerfing ele healing signet passive? Eles didn’t get anything to make up for that. And why are you still not undoing those nerfs?

it’s because of Written in Stone
Ele can have both the active and passive, so of course the signet needs to be terrible to balance

JonPeters.5630:

The biggest problem is IMO is actually the active heal. If we reduce the passive without doing something to make the active useful, we are just creating a different problem. Truly the active on this skill right now is in the following place. When I see someone press it I think “No No No don’t do that!” We are discussion some options here so if you want this to be constructive give suggestions towards improving the active. Reducing the passive is easy to do but we will not do it without solving the other problem. Also we will not greatly reduce it because it is giving Warriors a sense of sturdiness that we want their profession to have. Without strong heals, Warriors feel too much like everyone else. Setting them apart with strong heals has been good for changing their playstyle feel, but we agree it needs some tweaks.

Jon

Then only 1 answer is left…nerf the passive heal a bit and buff the active. Increase the scale of both with healing power.

btw, jon has said that warriors need some sustain and healing signet serves that purpose.

please respect jon’s decision okay?

JonPeters.5630:

I was simply stating that the problem is we are not going to address the issues that the passive sustain is creating until we make the active use have a place in combat so even if it is not THE PROBLEM, it is the blocking issue.

Jon

Active: Heal 66% of the damage that you took over the past 5 seconds.

Wow, as if we needed more evidence that the devs are hopelessly tone deaf and incompetent. I swear one class could have a one shot kill lazer from 9000 range and they’d nerf/rework/buff anything even remotely, tangentially affected by that skill, but never the obviously broken gimmick ability that ignores 90% of all balancing checks and everyone hates to begin with. This game is a kittening joke.

Sweetbread.2679:

Wow, as if we needed more evidence that the devs are hopelessly tone deaf and incompetent. I swear one class could have a one shot kill lazer from 9000 range and they’d nerf/rework/buff anything even remotely, tangentially affected by that skill, but never the obviously broken gimmick ability that ignores 90% of all balancing checks and everyone hates to begin with. This game is a kittening joke.

I’m glad you’re not a dev, tbh

RyuDragnier.9476:

JonPeters.5630:

The biggest problem is IMO is actually the active heal. If we reduce the passive without doing something to make the active useful, we are just creating a different problem. Truly the active on this skill right now is in the following place. When I see someone press it I think “No No No don’t do that!” We are discussion some options here so if you want this to be constructive give suggestions towards improving the active. Reducing the passive is easy to do but we will not do it without solving the other problem. Also we will not greatly reduce it because it is giving Warriors a sense of sturdiness that we want their profession to have. Without strong heals, Warriors feel too much like everyone else. Setting them apart with strong heals has been good for changing their playstyle feel, but we agree it needs some tweaks.

Jon

Then only 1 answer is left…nerf the passive heal a bit and buff the active. Increase the scale of both with healing power.

That doesn’t make any sense. If you do that, what’s the point of bringing that instead of Healing Surge?

No. Healing Signet in itself is bad designed and needs to be taken into a new direction completely

reikken.4961:

LelouchViBritannia.3607:

JonPeters.5630:

I was simply stating that the problem is we are not going to address the issues that the passive sustain is creating until we make the active use have a place in combat so even if it is not THE PROBLEM, it is the blocking issue.

Jon

Then why were you so swift almost a year ago in nerfing ele healing signet passive? Eles didn’t get anything to make up for that. And why are you still not undoing those nerfs?

it’s because of Written in Stone
Ele can have both the active and passive, so of course the signet needs to be terrible to balance

Have you played a Written in stone ele?
It wasnt nerfed for WiS when SoR was run notably on bunker eles who were investing in water and Arcane.

Quickfoot Katana.8642:

No. Healing Signet in itself is bad designed and needs to be taken into a new direction completely

I disagree. Again looking at Som, Sor and HS.
SoM ~ Successful attacks reward health
SoR – Using a skill gives health
HS – Existing gives health.
Imo between these 3 there should be a decreasing amount in the level of sustain they benefit, partially because Warrior is bulkier than both Ele and Thief so it has higher effective healing via armor against power damage than the 392 base indicates then the other two do. Partially because Ele also has Written in stone that maybe one day will be a more considerable pick if Ele signets sucked a little less.
Healing signet heals for a lot passively but the goal isn’t to get rid of that. A reliable heal out of the three is fine, so long as it’s proportionate to well the realities of damage a War takes & the level of effort (none) that healing signet’s passive demands. I don’t think it is. On the other hand Jon is right because the active sucks especially for a warrior who is generally in the middle of things more than either of them outside of a D/F ele.

Should be
Thief ~ Being able to keep your passive means you are doing great
Ele ~ Either one is fine, in Written in Stone you should be capitalizing on your active
War ~ Capitalize on the active.

ensoriki.5789:

-snip-
SoM ~ Successful attacks reward health
SoR – Using a skill gives health
HS – Existing gives health.

This is the problem, the passive is so good, and so passive that the active would have to do something completely different to justify it’s use (Ala, remove all damaging conditions or some such). The problem with HS is you can put it on then just ignore healing.

The active would have a much better place if the passive wasn’t so strong. I’d like to see the warrior passive changed to something along the lines of “Heal for X when you take damage”. The warrior already has mending for condition removal, adrenal for offensive healing, and stance for burst damage prevention. HS fills the role of brute force heal, so unless the desire is to change that, you cant add too many new effects to the active. That leaves tweaking the numbers and the passive’s effect.

Hmm Jon is right, the whole point of a signet is to force the player to make a choice whether to use it for what they need right then, or hold off for its stronger ability (in the long run). Right now nobody really uses HS unless they absolutely have to..and then they run. I think if we
1.Buffed its active heal, -ALOT- and then
2.Gave it a huge CD, enough that it couldn’t possibly be used again in the same fight
3.shaved abit off the passive
4.made the passive scale abit better and then
5. depending on the strength of the active heal, possibly give it another negative effect (such as reducing any further healing for a time)

It could be made into a signet worth using. Because remember warriors do have one of the highest hp pools in the game. IF they had a heal that gave them back a large chunk of that they would have to choose between prolonging the fight to take advantage of that passive or “Oh jeez i just popped my heal, i gota end this”. This would also give something for the tankier classes (the passive) and the more glass classes (the active) to use to their advantage.

DiogoSilva.7089:

I feel that this makes it easier for burst builds to counter-play the signet.

Wait wut?!

Oh I see your signature now….Elementalist :p

(in case you missed it…healing signet is its OWN counter to burst builds…the thing it is weakest against.)

ensoriki.5789:

LelouchViBritannia.3607:

ensoriki.5789:

JonPeters.5630:

The biggest problem is IMO is actually the active heal. If we reduce the passive without doing something to make the active useful, we are just creating a different problem. Truly the active on this skill right now is in the following place. When I see someone press it I think “No No No don’t do that!” We are discussion some options here so if you want this to be constructive give suggestions towards improving the active. Reducing the passive is easy to do but we will not do it without solving the other problem. Also we will not greatly reduce it because it is giving Warriors a sense of sturdiness that we want their profession to have. Without strong heals, Warriors feel too much like everyone else. Setting them apart with strong heals has been good for changing their playstyle feel, but we agree it needs some tweaks.

Jon

This has been mentioned before and I don’t disagree that the active is weak.
Signet of Malice active fits it because unlike Healing Signet the passive isn’t entirely passive given the hit requirement. Since their is that requirement whether Thieves like it or not they’ll end up using the active because multiple circumstances will arise where they do not have the leisure to attack to heal themself.

The enemy of a HoT is a burst that doesn’t give them time to heal. The active could play off that and let the Warrior heal back the damage they take in say the next 2 seconds.
Eg.
Active: Base heal 800. This skill does nothing for 2 seconds, after 2 seconds you heal for 110% of the damage you took in those 2 seconds.
Or make a reverse situation of GW1 where using Healing Signet increases your defenses temporarily and heals. Eg. Gain protection or gain 300 toughness for 5s. Something pre-emptively done to dissuade being bursted.

Whatever happened to classes having weaknesses (besides ele)?

Elaborate?

A year ago Johnathan Sharp posted an updated class description guide on this forum. How the developers see the classes and where they want them to be. Warrior was about hitting hard and stuff, and having trouble with condition and having to go to allies to get condition removal or otherwise simply facetank through them with their high HP pool.

Then it all changed when the fire nation the condition meta attacked.

Healing Signet Passive: Every hit you take heals you for X amount.

Wouldn’t this work better? This way it offer a passive sustain as long as the Warrior is taking damage, and it will force Warriors to use the active if they are taking too much damage.

A year ago Johnathan Sharp posted an updated class description guide on this forum.

Well, tbh, that class description was total bullkitten. The old descriptions told something about how ArenaNet wanted the classes to work, but after the rework they stated exactly what was the current state of the classes. If i remember correctly, the ele description says something in the line of “can do everything, but is harder to play” (this was before all those ele nerfs, btw).

So…i wouldn’t give much about those descriptions.

Drop passive to 329-335.
Active 4000- 4400? heal. Doubles your armor for 10(?) seconds.
Reasoning: Doubling your armor reduces damage about 50%. Given how effective healing works, reducing damage 50% should make any healing you receive 50% stronger. However since the damage reduction is only 10s, that effective healing is only temporary.
Since Armor does absolutely nothing against conditions the damage reduction wouldn’t apply and as such the Active would basically be heal 4000 health against conditions.
So Active = Weaker against conditions than Mending.
Passive = Barely stronger than healing surge, a couple of seconds of poison and it will straight heal less over a 30s period.
Active = Really strong against power damage, but doesn’t have the same potential against burst as Defiant stance, but works harder long term given the 10s duration and is 1s cast vs 1/4th.
Tldr a sustain skill, less general than surge, less specific than Mending and with less potential than Defiant stance.
I don’t think protection would work as well as doubled armor/toughness.

LelouchViBritannia.3607:

ensoriki.5789:

LelouchViBritannia.3607:

ensoriki.5789:

JonPeters.5630:

The biggest problem is IMO is actually the active heal. If we reduce the passive without doing something to make the active useful, we are just creating a different problem. Truly the active on this skill right now is in the following place. When I see someone press it I think “No No No don’t do that!” We are discussion some options here so if you want this to be constructive give suggestions towards improving the active. Reducing the passive is easy to do but we will not do it without solving the other problem. Also we will not greatly reduce it because it is giving Warriors a sense of sturdiness that we want their profession to have. Without strong heals, Warriors feel too much like everyone else. Setting them apart with strong heals has been good for changing their playstyle feel, but we agree it needs some tweaks.

Jon

This has been mentioned before and I don’t disagree that the active is weak.
Signet of Malice active fits it because unlike Healing Signet the passive isn’t entirely passive given the hit requirement. Since their is that requirement whether Thieves like it or not they’ll end up using the active because multiple circumstances will arise where they do not have the leisure to attack to heal themself.

The enemy of a HoT is a burst that doesn’t give them time to heal. The active could play off that and let the Warrior heal back the damage they take in say the next 2 seconds.
Eg.
Active: Base heal 800. This skill does nothing for 2 seconds, after 2 seconds you heal for 110% of the damage you took in those 2 seconds.
Or make a reverse situation of GW1 where using Healing Signet increases your defenses temporarily and heals. Eg. Gain protection or gain 300 toughness for 5s. Something pre-emptively done to dissuade being bursted.

Whatever happened to classes having weaknesses (besides ele)?

Elaborate?

A year ago Johnathan Sharp posted an updated class description guide on this forum. How the developers see the classes and where they want them to be. Warrior was about hitting hard and stuff, and having trouble with condition and having to go to allies to get condition removal or otherwise simply facetank through them with their high HP pool.

Then it all changed when the fire nation the condition meta attacked.

Those were odd when they were started.
Thief master of stealth and single target burst. Which feels odd given P/D even at that time really didn’t have a burst for anything unless you were standing in caltrops. S/D didn’t really burst either at all, even before the tactical, dancing dagger and cnd nerf it recieved. Then again Quickness could make anything at the time a burst so…

Ele’s “burst healing” was pretty much all in traits which left a lot to be questionable given this sort of defense mechanism they have pretty much didn’t exist without traiting, where other aspects they defined did exist on a level on the classes. Even now it’s pretty much all in traits especially dat dere healing ripple. Cone of Cold doesn’t burst heal for anything.

JonPeters.5630:

I was simply stating that the problem is we are not going to address the issues that the passive sustain is creating until we make the active use have a place in combat so even if it is not THE PROBLEM, it is the blocking issue.

Jon

Nerf the passive to 280 HPS (putting it on par with most heals) and buff the active to 4480 (224 HPS). That way the active is worth an instant 16s (80% of 20s) of the healing you’d get from the passive, and the passive benefits are enough to make up for the weaker active healing so that you get just a bit more health by investing your time, and you can take advantage of the time between when the active goes off CD and you use the active again.

It’s not that difficult…

I still don’t understand how the class with the most armor and health can have a passive heal that heals for over 400 every single second, while the class with the least health and armor can at best (fully traited with everything) get 260 health WHEN USING AN ABILITY which of course isn’t every single second.

^ you would figure possibly because a) Eles can burst their health up (which the don’t really do without healing ripple) or b) because they have other base sources of heals (but cone of cold sucks, yes i am whining), c) Eles aren’t supposed to have the highest sustain given “jack of all trade” type and are supposed to be flexible (but aren’t all that flexible).

Warriors have other forums of heals too. And every single one of them is better than ele heals. Adrenal health > regeneration (because you can have both!), shout heals > ele water heals.

LelouchViBritannia.3607:

I still don’t understand how the class with the most armor and health can have a passive heal that heals for over 400 every single second, while the class with the least health and armor can at best (fully traited with everything) get 260 health WHEN USING AN ABILITY which of course isn’t every single second.

Not to mention- the best heal makes you extremely vulnerable for +3 seconds and is interruptable. Glyph doesn’t have as bad a cast but is overall very weak, ABrill is too unreliable, and Signet is just flat-out too weak.

LelouchViBritannia.3607:

I still don’t understand how the class with the most armor and health can have a passive heal that heals for over 400 every single second, while the class with the least health and armor can at best (fully traited with everything) get 260 health WHEN USING AN ABILITY which of course isn’t every single second.

Warriors have no clones, no stealth, no protection boons, no blind, highly telegraphed moves etc…

Warriors are really a basic class with some really basic functions. It’s really great to have class like that. To me the strength of the warriors at this moment is the ability to have multiple builds that work and healing signet seem to be the turning point.

I sincerely wishes that all class could have multiple effective builds rather than nerfing one of the class that actually offer diversity. Most class look for the new meta build after every patch but that should not work like this. Sure some warrior build get popular and everybody wanted to try rifle/GS but most warrior I know came back to play how they loved to play.

I like what the anet employee wrote. IMO think Healing signet should be splitted in 2. One healing skill with pure regen and no burst heal at all and another one with some regen but depend on something else that offer a greater risk/reward but that would fit better with the warrior class. (Ex: turn adrenaline to health or life leech)

Jon, I thought necromancer was meant to be the sustain class of Guild Wars 2. Has warrior now taken over that role? If so don’t you think the class needs a huge reduction in mobility and that the necromancer should be retooled to fit another purpose? While I agree that healing signet’s active is kitten the passive is currently game breaking when you look at the warrior class as a whole.

Zietlogik.6208:

DiogoSilva.7089:

I feel that this makes it easier for burst builds to counter-play the signet.

Wait wut?!

Oh I see your signature now….Elementalist :p

(in case you missed it…healing signet is its OWN counter to burst builds…the thing it is weakest against.)

I understand how HS works, but by existing a larger gap between health ticks, the heal’s weakness will be be further enforced.

When one looks at the healing signet itself it seems sort of fine. The problem is warriors get massive sustain without any investments. All you need is HS and 20 into defense and you are a sustain god. No healing gear/runes needed! This is the problem!

This is a false sense of sturdiness and a blatant example of internal imbalance. HS outshines both other heals, which would be pretty amazing on any other class themselves. Hell they are amazing for the warrior, but HS is just better.

Conclusion: HS needs a nerf, not a major one. Perhaps drop it to 300-350 hps then go from there. But the problem, as I have said, is a composite one: HS+AH+Ire with only 20 traits into defense!!!!

I dont see whats wrong with halving the current passive and doubling the current active.
The passive would still be double the power of Virtue of Resolve, and the active would be 3 times that. Not counting adrenal health or banner regen, which is a ridiculous combo on a condi bunker.
There dont need to be any active modifiers. Make it instant cast.

JonPeters.5630:

I was simply stating that the problem is we are not going to address the issues that the passive sustain is creating until we make the active use have a place in combat so even if it is not THE PROBLEM, it is the blocking issue.

Jon

Jon, how is this difficult? Honestly?

You just need the active heal to be a good heal to begin with. Right now it’s a crap heal. Especially with War you don’t want to stop to heal all the time, you want one massive heal, even with longer cooldown.

I’m of the opinion that the the other, non HS, Warrior heals could use a bit of a buff in raw heal. Then, you just make HS have either slightly, or similar healing but granting none of the other buffs. The (weaker than it is now, evidently) passive healing becomes a bonus.

Seriously, you have this mechanic down perfectly in Signet of the Dolyak vs. Stance.

Passives should be bonus compensation for an otherwise weaker version of a skill. HS’s passive should be a bonus for a slightly less efficient active heal. It shouldn’t be THE heal.

Edit: Another alternative is make it a “conditional” passive. Such as Signet of Malice or Signet of Restoration. The problem with HS is that it’s a permanent passive. It has no counter play. Thief’s Signet of Malice only heals as long as they hit something. Elementalist’s Signet of Restoration only heals so long as they’re attacking. HS has no downsides. You can kite them, you can stun them, you can do anything and they’re still passively and permanently regenerating health.

Chokolata.1870:

When one looks at the healing signet itself it seems sort of fine. The problem is warriors get massive sustain without any investments. All you need is HS and 20 into defense and you are a sustain god. No healing gear/runes needed! This is the problem!

This is a false sense of sturdiness and a blatant example of internal imbalance. HS outshines both other heals, which would be pretty amazing on any other class themselves. Hell they are amazing for the warrior, but HS is just better.

Conclusion: HS needs a nerf, not a major one. Perhaps drop it to 300-350 hps then go from there. But the problem, as I have said, is a composite one: HS+AH+Ire with only 20 traits into defense!!!!

Holy kitten. Imagine a S/D thief with Healing Signet. LOL!