Guild Wars 2

Harper.4173:

The skillful counter to HS is BURST DAMAGE.

That’s not a counter to a healing skill. Damage is what everyone is always trying to do; countering a heal means stopping the opponent from healing back that damage.

Harper.4173:

Regarding the prevalence of warriors – warrior popularity is an issue here. Warriors will always be popular even if they are balanced. Because they are EASY and FUN to play unlike other classes.

They are seen as “easy” and “fun” because being overpowered makes things easy, and because winning is fun. So you’re actually confirming the complaints here.

Qaelyn – healing works in different ways.
A heal that heals OVER TIME Is countered by the rapid application of high amounts of damage.
If a LOT of damage is put on a HS warrior over a SHORT period of time he has no healing solution – his passive regen is too little AND the active heal isn’t going to help him out – so it IS a counter.

If you’re thinking that the only way to counter a heal is to stop the opponent from healing i think you’re referring to INTERRUPTING a heal.

Countering means using a strategy for which your opponent is unprepared/ unequipped and using said strategy to succeed.

Warriors are seen as easy and fun because even though in high-end PVP your positioning is key and each mistake can be fatal – in PVE and most aspects of the game the class doesn’t require you to stay on top of too many gimmick mechanics.
You don’t need to switch attunements / switch different kits / keep a silly PET AI in line/ put down heals walls and reflects – you can just focus on killing stuff and not much else.
People don’t like to get into overly complicated things.

You’re misunderstanding me – warriors in most places except high-end PVP and PVE are SIMPLE. They’re easy to pick up and play.

Why bother with 129301293 spells and all that cluttery nonsense when you can just hit things with your sword?! ( That mentality is why warriors will always be a preferred class).

Harper.4173:

If a LOT of damage is put on a HS warrior over a SHORT period of time he has no healing solution – his passive regen is too little AND the active heal isn’t going to help him out – so it IS a counter.

But if you put a lot of damage on anyone in a short period of time they are going to die. It’s just harder to do with warriors because they have by far the greatest combination of HP, healing and mobility. They start out with a huge HP pool, their healing is passive, automatic, and enormous, and if things are going badly they just escape and heal even more while you chase them. That’s what people are complaining about (and Arenanet is ignoring).

Harper.4173:

If you’re thinking that the only way to counter a heal is to stop the opponent from healing i think you’re referring to INTERRUPTING a heal.

It’s not the only way, but it’s a way that’s used on pretty much every other class to which warriors are largely immune.

Harper.4173:

You’re misunderstanding me – warriors in most places except high-end PVP and PVE are SIMPLE. They’re easy to pick up and play.

And why should a class that is admittedly easy to play also be the most powerful in the game?

I don’t know if this idea was mentioned before already, since I cba to read through all of it.
Nerf the passive effect of healing signet even more not just the 30 hp/s. And for the active you could do something like get healed for some amount and for the next 3-5 attacks that you hit you get healed for xxx amount. That way the ridiculus sustain of HS is brought down and with using the active it is actually better for a warrior to stay in fight and keep hitting things. It is also different from the rest of the heals that warriors have. My 2 cents.

Right now warriors dominate, absolutely dominate, tPvP, WvW and PVE/dungeons.

Guild Warriors 2

Why? Because they have high damage, high sustain, high mobility, high armor, great condition removal and lots of AoE, and they are incredibly easy to play.

If you were a developer on the balance team, how could you possibly stand up and be proud of your work?

It’s a farce.

Harper.4173:

Thedenofsin.7340:

This is addressed to the dev on the left during Ready-Up:

Let’s assume 30hps is the difference between Healing Signet and Healing Surge. However, Healing Signet is not skillful play, and there is no skillful counterplay.

Healing Surge can be interrupted and you can poison the heal. You cannot interrupt Healing Signet and, unless you plan on giving all professions access to 100% poison uptime, you cannot poison Healing Signet.

The skillful counter to HS is BURST DAMAGE. Is it that hard to figure out?
If you burst him down said warrior cannot heal.

That’s not a counter. If you dole out 22k of burst damage you counter any class. That’s along the same lines when you hear people say “just use poison – it counters HS”. Poison counters all healing, and, last time I checked, every class doesn’t have a weapon that allows them to dole out poison with 100% uptime.

There is a bias on the balancing of the warrior since the start of the game, can’t do much about that.

Rednik.3809:

And here is another blatant lies. We love to “forgot” some “redundant” facts, aren’t we?

Ele- don’t even start that crap with me. Ether Renewal is an absolutely godawful source of condi removal, if only because of the fact that it is so easily interruptible. If you can’t get this through your skull, go play an ele and then tell me that it’s one of the “best condi removals in the game”. That’s complete garbage.

Engineer- that “large” part isn’t really that large, and relies on your allies being at least somewhat close to you, which creates an incentive problem: either you wait for your allies to be in range so that you can use HealTurret for maximum effect but you thereby weaken your own healing, or you use it as soon as possible (which is the HPS that I accounted for in my calculations) and risk being unable to benefit your allies. Engis also don’t have heavy armor, and warriors have 3k more health than they do.

Guardian- if you can’t wait until Shelter is finished to burst an opponent, you shouldn’t play a burst build.

Necro- necros don’t have that many ways to get rid of condis already- both of their other two main sources are weapon skills, one of which has a pretty obvious cast. Either way, the heal is still on a 25s CD, which isn’t exactly super reliable, and again it creates an incentive problem: wait to use your heal for when you have a lot of condis, thereby sacrificing your healing potential, or use it as soon as possible, thereby sacrificing some of your condi clearing potential.

Ranger- not many other condi clears in the first place outside of Empathic Bond (which is getting nerfed/debugged anyways). Rangers also have very, very few ways to actually utilize the water field by themselves, and most attempts to utilize it too much will often result in lost damage potential (I’m speaking as a thief who’s spammed water fields with Cluster Bomb before). The condi cleanse is still nowhere as reliable as Cleansing Ire, which, combined with LB, allows you to remove up to 4 conditions in a 10s period of time very easily, and with Berserker Stance, warriors already become immune to condis anyways. Either way there aren’t enough conditions in fights to make Healing Spring completely OP. That’s why mesmers are still playable. Anyways, you still have 3k more health and heavy armor over rangers.

Thief- you can easily get gap creators with weapons like Sword and Greatsword. The condition clear only applies to very specific condis, and honestly neither of those are enough to justify not getting 392/360 HPS with no cast time whatsoever.

Warrior- so we’ve finally gotten here… Do you still really believe that Healing Signet is weaker than or on average with other healing skills in the game? It has no cast time (meaning no lost damage potential, no lost defensive potential, and no lost healing potential), is less counterable by poison (you have to maintain constant poison uptime in order to get the full reduction from poison), and, when combined with warrior’s other amazing defensive options, is downright OP. Cleansing Ire and Zerker Stance get rid of most of the problems with conditions that warriors ever have. Meanwhile, warrior still has the highest base health in the game except for necro, which doesn’t have the 14% damage reduction from heavy armor anyways. It’s funny- yesterday I was watching a battle between a warrior and an MM necro where the warrior didn’t fall beneath 20k health even once. The fact that it is so impossibly difficult to take down a warrior should be a testament to how overpowered warrior is right now. As for side effects, the fact that Healing Signet is in and of itself a passive effect is a side effect that no other usable skill in the game has. The fact that you don’t have to cast it or, for that matter, even worry about it is such a huge benefit, and you don’t even take that into account.

By the way… Signet of Malice and Signet of Restoration are both signets that have “no side effect” and heal for 200-300 health less than HealSig does, and both of those require you to hit somebody with a skill in order to activate. Furthermore, of the two classes that own those two signets (Thief and ele respectively), they both have 8k less health than warrior, and get 7/14% more damage dealt to them, respectively.

Qaelyn.7612:

Harper.4173:

If a LOT of damage is put on a HS warrior over a SHORT period of time he has no healing solution – his passive regen is too little AND the active heal isn’t going to help him out – so it IS a counter.

But if you put a lot of damage on anyone in a short period of time they are going to die. It’s just harder to do with warriors because they have by far the greatest combination of HP, healing and mobility. They start out with a huge HP pool, their healing is passive, automatic, and enormous, and if things are going badly they just escape and heal even more while you chase them. That’s what people are complaining about (and Arenanet is ignoring).

Harper.4173:

If you’re thinking that the only way to counter a heal is to stop the opponent from healing i think you’re referring to INTERRUPTING a heal.

It’s not the only way, but it’s a way that’s used on pretty much every other class to which warriors are largely immune.

Harper.4173:

You’re misunderstanding me – warriors in most places except high-end PVP and PVE are SIMPLE. They’re easy to pick up and play.

And why should a class that is admittedly easy to play also be the most powerful in the game?

If you put a lot of damage of ANYONE in a short amount of time it doesn’t mean they’ll die.
If a warrior has this : http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Surge then he’ll get healed for 9.800 health effectively repairing a lot of the damage dealt.
If a warrior under the same burst has healing signet he can heal for what? 3275? How is that even comparable?
He doesn’t have the time to heal up by passive – and his active can’t manage -ergo he’s in a spot where he can’t fix his problem.

Is it that hard to grasp this concept?

If warriors are easy to play that does not mean they should be suboptimal and worse off that the other classes.
They are FAR from the best class – there are numerous classes – as i’ve posted above that can specialize far better than warriors to fill niche roles. The only advantage warriors get is that they can do a bit of everything but ultimately it’s the higher skill cap classes that excel at these specific roles.

Let’s look at it :

Bunker : Guardian > Warrior
Support and healing allies : Ele/ Guardian > Warrior
Solo roaming in WvW : Mesmer > Warrior
Single target damage ( PVP) : Thief / Mesmer > Warrior
Single target damage ( PVE) : Ele/Thief/Guardian > Warrior
Might stacking: Ele/ Guardian > Warrior
Utility ( PVE – blocks, reflects, boons): Guardian> Warrior
Condition damage: Necro/Engineer> Warrior

Are you going to tell me these things aren’t true?
The class is outperformed in all these situations by other classes.

Thedenofsin.7340:

Harper.4173:

Thedenofsin.7340:

This is addressed to the dev on the left during Ready-Up:

Let’s assume 30hps is the difference between Healing Signet and Healing Surge. However, Healing Signet is not skillful play, and there is no skillful counterplay.

Healing Surge can be interrupted and you can poison the heal. You cannot interrupt Healing Signet and, unless you plan on giving all professions access to 100% poison uptime, you cannot poison Healing Signet.

The skillful counter to HS is BURST DAMAGE. Is it that hard to figure out?
If you burst him down said warrior cannot heal.

That’s not a counter. If you dole out 22k of burst damage you counter any class. That’s along the same lines when you hear people say “just use poison – it counters HS”. Poison counters all healing, and, last time I checked, every class doesn’t have a weapon that allows them to dole out poison with 100% uptime.

I’m not saying burst out 22k. I’m saying slowly take some hp down and then burst around 10k. I’ve seen thieves do this so many times it hurts.
Or is it that there are no builds on any class that can damage more than 400 damage per second?

Arganthium.5638:

Rednik.3809:

And here is another blatant lies. We love to “forgot” some “redundant” facts, aren’t we?

Ele- don’t even start that crap with me. Ether Renewal is an absolutely godawful source of condi removal, if only because of the fact that it is so easily interruptible. If you can’t get this through your skull, go play an ele and then tell me that it’s one of the “best condi removals in the game”. That’s complete garbage.

Engineer- that “large” part isn’t really that large, and relies on your allies being at least somewhat close to you, which creates an incentive problem: either you wait for your allies to be in range so that you can use HealTurret for maximum effect but you thereby weaken your own healing, or you use it as soon as possible (which is the HPS that I accounted for in my calculations) and risk being unable to benefit your allies. Engis also don’t have heavy armor, and warriors have 3k more health than they do.

Guardian- if you can’t wait until Shelter is finished to burst an opponent, you shouldn’t play a burst build.

Necro- necros don’t have that many ways to get rid of condis already- both of their other two main sources are weapon skills, one of which has a pretty obvious cast. Either way, the heal is still on a 25s CD, which isn’t exactly super reliable, and again it creates an incentive problem: wait to use your heal for when you have a lot of condis, thereby sacrificing your healing potential, or use it as soon as possible, thereby sacrificing some of your condi clearing potential.

Ranger- not many other condi clears in the first place outside of Empathic Bond (which is getting nerfed/debugged anyways). Rangers also have very, very few ways to actually utilize the water field by themselves, and most attempts to utilize it too much will often result in lost damage potential (I’m speaking as a thief who’s spammed water fields with Cluster Bomb before). The condi cleanse is still nowhere as reliable as Cleansing Ire, which, combined with LB, allows you to remove up to 4 conditions in a 10s period of time very easily, and with Berserker Stance, warriors already become immune to condis anyways. Either way there aren’t enough conditions in fights to make Healing Spring completely OP. That’s why mesmers are still playable. Anyways, you still have 3k more health and heavy armor over rangers.

Thief- you can easily get gap creators with weapons like Sword and Greatsword. The condition clear only applies to very specific condis, and honestly neither of those are enough to justify not getting 392/360 HPS with no cast time whatsoever.

Warrior- so we’ve finally gotten here… Do you still really believe that Healing Signet is weaker than or on average with other healing skills in the game? It has no cast time (meaning no lost damage potential, no lost defensive potential, and no lost healing potential), is less counterable by poison (you have to maintain constant poison uptime in order to get the full reduction from poison), and, when combined with warrior’s other amazing defensive options, is downright OP. Cleansing Ire and Zerker Stance get rid of most of the problems with conditions that warriors ever have. Meanwhile, warrior still has the highest base health in the game except for necro, which doesn’t have the 14% damage reduction from heavy armor anyways. It’s funny- yesterday I was watching a battle between a warrior and an MM necro where the warrior didn’t fall beneath 20k health even once. The fact that it is so impossibly difficult to take down a warrior should be a testament to how overpowered warrior is right now. As for side effects, the fact that Healing Signet is in and of itself a passive effect is a side effect that no other usable skill in the game has. The fact that you don’t have to cast it or, for that matter, even worry about it is such a huge benefit, and you don’t even take that into account.

By the way… Signet of Malice and Signet of Restoration are both signets that have “no side effect” and heal for 200-300 health less than HealSig does, and both of those require you to hit somebody with a skill in order to activate. Furthermore, of the two classes that own those two signets (Thief and ele respectively), they both have 8k less health than warrior, and get 7/14% more damage dealt to them, respectively.

Great evidence – a battle between a decent warrior and the world’s worst necromancer.
I like how it takes him a full FOUR ( 4 ) Seconds to dodge out or walk out of the warrior’s F1 longbow fire field at minute 1.

I love how these 1 v 1s are always proof that warrior is OP – especially when the person he’s fighting has absolutely NO idea what they’re doing.

Harper.4173:

I’m not saying burst out 22k. I’m saying slowly take some hp down and then burst around 10k. I’ve seen thieves do this so many times it hurts.
Or is it that there are no builds on any class that can damage more than 400 damage per second?

There’s one problem here, the MAIN problem I have with Healing Signet…it’s 400 HP a second. A SECOND. And it’s on all the time. If anything that doesn’t have above average power attacks the Warrior, they are NEVER going to lower the Warrior’s HP, meaning condition builds can’t do kitten to them. I’ve tried with my trap Ranger, to no avail because he keeps dropping the conditions faster than I can keep them up thanks to Cleansing Ire combining with it. The same has gone on with any tank, support, or any other condition build on different classes. It’s not possible to outdo that healing power if you’re not specced towards power.

This is the main reason why it’s OP, it pretty much makes anything not power or zerker worthless against them. I don’t mind it when it’s an actual tank build Warrior surviving, as that’s what a tank is supposed to do. It’s when I’m fighting a zerker and can’t do enough damage to outdo the signet is it a sign that it’s too kitten much.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Harper.4173:

I’m not saying burst out 22k. I’m saying slowly take some hp down and then burst around 10k. I’ve seen thieves do this so many times it hurts.
Or is it that there are no builds on any class that can damage more than 400 damage per second?

There’s one problem here, the MAIN problem I have with Healing Signet…it’s 400 HP a second. A SECOND. And it’s on all the time. If anything that doesn’t have above average power attacks the Warrior, they are NEVER going to lower the Warrior’s HP, meaning condition builds can’t do kitten to them. I’ve tried with my trap Ranger, to no avail because he keeps dropping the conditions faster than I can keep them up thanks to Cleansing Ire combining with it. The same has gone on with any tank, support, or any other condition build on different classes. It’s not possible to outdo that healing power if you’re not specced towards power.

This is the main reason why it’s OP, it pretty much makes anything not power or zerker worthless against them. I don’t mind it when it’s an actual tank build Warrior surviving, as that’s what a tank is supposed to do. It’s when I’m fighting a zerker and can’t do enough damage to outdo the signet is it a sign that it’s too kitten much.

Do you even know what you are saying? With some condi damage, 1 bleed ticks for 130dmg, in other words you need 3 bleeds to almost completely negate the warriors healing. Are you telling me your condi build can’t keep 3 bleeds on a warrior?

Condis are a warriors greatest weakness.

ps.: you need to hit in order to clean condis with cleansing ire, except on longbow. So dodge right and he’ll melt to your condis.

Harper.4173:

Thedenofsin.7340:

Harper.4173:

Thedenofsin.7340:

This is addressed to the dev on the left during Ready-Up:

Let’s assume 30hps is the difference between Healing Signet and Healing Surge. However, Healing Signet is not skillful play, and there is no skillful counterplay.

Healing Surge can be interrupted and you can poison the heal. You cannot interrupt Healing Signet and, unless you plan on giving all professions access to 100% poison uptime, you cannot poison Healing Signet.

The skillful counter to HS is BURST DAMAGE. Is it that hard to figure out?
If you burst him down said warrior cannot heal.

That’s not a counter. If you dole out 22k of burst damage you counter any class. That’s along the same lines when you hear people say “just use poison – it counters HS”. Poison counters all healing, and, last time I checked, every class doesn’t have a weapon that allows them to dole out poison with 100% uptime.

I’m not saying burst out 22k. I’m saying slowly take some hp down and then burst around 10k. I’ve seen thieves do this so many times it hurts.
Or is it that there are no builds on any class that can damage more than 400 damage per second?

I see this same argument over and over again. And it’s just as poor this time as the first. Your argument assumes that warriors are doing 0 dps, which is false. Warriors will do 4-500 dps, and will have 2-9000 more hp than their opponents.
This means that an opponent would have to do 1000+ dps to win.

In short, your argument is completely baseless.

MiLkZz.4789:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Harper.4173:

I’m not saying burst out 22k. I’m saying slowly take some hp down and then burst around 10k. I’ve seen thieves do this so many times it hurts.
Or is it that there are no builds on any class that can damage more than 400 damage per second?

There’s one problem here, the MAIN problem I have with Healing Signet…it’s 400 HP a second. A SECOND. And it’s on all the time. If anything that doesn’t have above average power attacks the Warrior, they are NEVER going to lower the Warrior’s HP, meaning condition builds can’t do kitten to them. I’ve tried with my trap Ranger, to no avail because he keeps dropping the conditions faster than I can keep them up thanks to Cleansing Ire combining with it. The same has gone on with any tank, support, or any other condition build on different classes. It’s not possible to outdo that healing power if you’re not specced towards power.

This is the main reason why it’s OP, it pretty much makes anything not power or zerker worthless against them. I don’t mind it when it’s an actual tank build Warrior surviving, as that’s what a tank is supposed to do. It’s when I’m fighting a zerker and can’t do enough damage to outdo the signet is it a sign that it’s too kitten much.

Do you even know what you are saying? With some condi damage, 1 bleed ticks for 130dmg, in other words you need 3 bleeds to almost completely negate the warriors healing. Are you telling me your condi build can’t keep 3 bleeds on a warrior?

Condis are a warriors greatest weakness.

ps.: you need to hit in order to clean condis with cleansing ire, except on longbow. So dodge right and he’ll melt to your condis.

This is funny because people complain because HS cannot be interrupted (the passive part (i didn´t see yet a single passive skill being interrupted on any profession)), and no one interrups Combustive shot to prevent the warrior to clean conditions and to create a fire field.

Qaelyn.7612:

That’s what people are complaining about (and Arenanet is ignoring).

I read that the Dev team all play Warrior as a main class…Something to think about.
Bias maybe?
Not wanting their own class to be balanced maybe?

MiLkZz.4789:

Do you even know what you are saying? With some condi damage, 1 bleed ticks for 130dmg, in other words you need 3 bleeds to almost completely negate the warriors healing. Are you telling me your condi build can’t keep 3 bleeds on a warrior?

Condis are a warriors greatest weakness.

ps.: you need to hit in order to clean condis with cleansing ire, except on longbow. So dodge right and he’ll melt to your condis.

Now if only Warriors didnt have maybe Condition immunity and damage immunity…
Maybe even have access to things that reduce condition duration, Maybe dogged March?

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

MiLkZz.4789:

Do you even know what you are saying? With some condi damage, 1 bleed ticks for 130dmg, in other words you need 3 bleeds to almost completely negate the warriors healing. Are you telling me your condi build can’t keep 3 bleeds on a warrior?

Condis are a warriors greatest weakness.

ps.: you need to hit in order to clean condis with cleansing ire, except on longbow. So dodge right and he’ll melt to your condis.

Now if only Warriors didnt have maybe Condition immunity and damage immunity…
Maybe even have access to things that reduce condition duration, Maybe dogged March?

Dogged march doesn’t impact damaging conditions. Only movement impairing ones. Condition immunity I’ll grant you is excessive. Just like diamond skin is. These things shouldn’t grant immunity, only make it so conditions deal 0 damage while they’re on the target. That way if the conditions are still on when the ‘immunity’ drops, the condis are still stacked and ready.

Condi duration (either increasing or decreasing) should have a cap of 40% anyway. This way classes can choose to use food or traits or sigils/runes and not go nuts with all of the above.

As for healing signet, I’d say dropping it by 50 hps solves a great deal of the problems being discussed so long as the active portion of the signet isn’t just increasing the amount of the heal.

If Warrior passive healing needs to be nerfed in excess of 50, I’d sooner move adrenal health to another tree so a Warrior with 30 in defense (99.9% of every warrior in existence) didn’t stack so much defense while at the same time losing next to nothing offensively.

This is my problem with the Warrior. A Warrior can spec for bunkering and lose next to no damage. A warrior can spec for offense and gain next to no damage but loses out on a TON of defensive tools. This is where the issue is and this is where ANet should look at changing.

There’s nothing wrong wtih healing signet the way it is now, it’s only the addition of half a dozen other things on top of it does it become excessive and appear overpowered.

The whole passive vs. active gameplay is not a real problem when all is said and done. Not everything is going to have an activation time that can be interrupted.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

MiLkZz.4789:

Do you even know what you are saying? With some condi damage, 1 bleed ticks for 130dmg, in other words you need 3 bleeds to almost completely negate the warriors healing. Are you telling me your condi build can’t keep 3 bleeds on a warrior?

Condis are a warriors greatest weakness.

ps.: you need to hit in order to clean condis with cleansing ire, except on longbow. So dodge right and he’ll melt to your condis.

Now if only Warriors didnt have maybe Condition immunity and damage immunity…
Maybe even have access to things that reduce condition duration, Maybe dogged March?

Oh please, you are really going to pick a fight with a highly experienced warrior player?
1) Dogged march only affects movement impairing effects, engis and eles have this trait aswel. So your damage stays on
2) Berserker stance is only 8s in duration and 60s CD, you mean you can’t dodge/evade outlast a warrior for 8s? Ouch…
3) Run 40% condi food and some condi duration and you’ll still be able to chill the -98% movement impairing effect warriors for 10s. And chill is the most OP condi in the game, rendering the warrior absolutely useless.
4) I play engi as second main and he melts warriors with his condi spam. Don’t think I have ever lost from a warrior, so easy to dodge their skills and burn them down.

Harper.4173:

Aberrant.6749:

Harper.4173:

Let’s not forget that the OP here is biased.
Unlike the other classes warriors have no access to protection, stealth, reflects and all those other nasty things that other classes can abuse to stay alive.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Missile_Deflection

So you’re saying a warrior packs as much reflect as a mesmer/ guardian?
I’m not saying we don’t have it at all – but not as good as other classes.

Also I had forgotten to mention necro’s 2nd life bar. Fun stuff.

Honest question : why do people want this class destroyed? Would it make you guys feel better?!

Please show me where you’re reading that I said anything like that which would give you that idea. You were the one that said wars had no access to it. I showed you that they do. Don’t put words in my mouth to try to build a strawman argument please

@ MiLkZz.4789 – did you seriously just equate http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dogged_March which is an adept trait and also provides regen in defense with http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Leg_Mods a master trait in kitten tools and http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Geomancer%27s_Freedom a master trait in kitten earth? I don’t think that’s quite a fair comparison…

SoulSin.5682:

Quickfoot Katana.8642:

Chokolata.1870:

When one looks at the healing signet itself it seems sort of fine. The problem is warriors get massive sustain without any investments. All you need is HS and 20 into defense and you are a sustain god. No healing gear/runes needed! This is the problem!

This is a false sense of sturdiness and a blatant example of internal imbalance. HS outshines both other heals, which would be pretty amazing on any other class themselves. Hell they are amazing for the warrior, but HS is just better.

Conclusion: HS needs a nerf, not a major one. Perhaps drop it to 300-350 hps then go from there. But the problem, as I have said, is a composite one: HS+AH+Ire with only 20 traits into defense!!!!

Holy kitten. Imagine a S/D thief with Healing Signet. LOL!

400 + 320 + 200 (regen boon) per second. On Stealth. That would be fun!

(please don’t)

Imo, make the Healing Signet a permanent Regen Boon that activates every 10 seconds for more 10 seconds. This way classes with boon steal/corrupt can counter play it.

Why should warriors be able to be countered? I mean the game is Guild WARRIORS after all.

People who chose to play non-core classes really need to adjust their expectations to be inline with their status as non-warrior classes.

MiLkZz.4789:

Oh please, you are really going to pick a fight with a highly experienced warrior player?
1) Dogged march only affects movement impairing effects, engis and eles have this trait aswel. So your damage stays on
2) Berserker stance is only 8s in duration and 60s CD, you mean you can’t dodge/evade outlast a warrior for 8s? Ouch…
3) Run 40% condi food and some condi duration and you’ll still be able to chill the -98% movement impairing effect warriors for 10s. And chill is the most OP condi in the game, rendering the warrior absolutely useless.
4) I play engi as second main and he melts warriors with his condi spam. Don’t think I have ever lost from a warrior, so easy to dodge their skills and burn them down.

1) Oh yeah, only damaging conditions matter…If only Warrior wasn’t so mobile..Oh wait

2) Oh yeah, 8 seconds of immunity, how dreadful. Not as if they can’t attack during that time. oh yeah “dodging” i forget what that is like on a class with NO access to Vigor, blocks or anything else…

3) Right, so forced into running specific food to counter ONE trait….Yeah that is SO balanced.

4) I don’t see how, so much immunity, mobility and have everything. Then again Engineer are very strong as well.

Burst isnt much of a counter to a Warrior with Healing Signet. A Warrior needs to stay in combat, alive, for just 12seconds and Healing Signet already starts beating out other healing skills.

Considering the mobility and defensive traits/skills/utility has, on top of an inherently superior toughness and healthpool, that is not a terribly difficult feat to accomplish.

And then there is the fact that with Healing Signet no actions have to be dedicated to healing. No buttons pressed, no casttimes to finish. Big benefit when under pressure, casting a heal runs a high risk of being interupted or suffers from dimished effects from a short poison.
Remember, a poison needs to last but a second to counter a cast-heal but it needs 100% uptime to counter Healing Signet.

My Mesmer (full zerker gear) once landed an iZerker on a Warrior while he was just standing there and attacking a gate with his longbow in WvW. By the time the iZerker did another pass the Warrior’s signet had already healed him back up to full.

So he could simply ignore the iZerker because his passive signet+ passive regeneration (Dogged March) was enough to keep him at max health.

They are nerfing healing signet happy? You may stop the QQ now the skill will be nerfed. Sooner or later you must admit you are a terrible player if you cant outdps it.

silentnight warrior.2714:

MiLkZz.4789:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Harper.4173:

I’m not saying burst out 22k. I’m saying slowly take some hp down and then burst around 10k. I’ve seen thieves do this so many times it hurts.
Or is it that there are no builds on any class that can damage more than 400 damage per second?

There’s one problem here, the MAIN problem I have with Healing Signet…it’s 400 HP a second. A SECOND. And it’s on all the time. If anything that doesn’t have above average power attacks the Warrior, they are NEVER going to lower the Warrior’s HP, meaning condition builds can’t do kitten to them. I’ve tried with my trap Ranger, to no avail because he keeps dropping the conditions faster than I can keep them up thanks to Cleansing Ire combining with it. The same has gone on with any tank, support, or any other condition build on different classes. It’s not possible to outdo that healing power if you’re not specced towards power.

This is the main reason why it’s OP, it pretty much makes anything not power or zerker worthless against them. I don’t mind it when it’s an actual tank build Warrior surviving, as that’s what a tank is supposed to do. It’s when I’m fighting a zerker and can’t do enough damage to outdo the signet is it a sign that it’s too kitten much.

Do you even know what you are saying? With some condi damage, 1 bleed ticks for 130dmg, in other words you need 3 bleeds to almost completely negate the warriors healing. Are you telling me your condi build can’t keep 3 bleeds on a warrior?

Condis are a warriors greatest weakness.

ps.: you need to hit in order to clean condis with cleansing ire, except on longbow. So dodge right and he’ll melt to your condis.

This is funny because people complain because HS cannot be interrupted (the passive part (i didn´t see yet a single passive skill being interrupted on any profession)), and no one interrups Combustive shot to prevent the warrior to clean conditions and to create a fire field.

Combustive Shot looks like Arcing Arrow, and once the arrow leaves the bow, it cannot be interrupted.

tom.7468:

They are nerfing healing signet happy? You may stop the QQ now the skill will be nerfed. Sooner or later you must admit you are a terrible player if you cant outdps it.

I’ve noticed that nearly all of the posts laying out the case for why the warrior is overpowered make reasonable arguments, generally supported with facts. And the posts defending the warrior status quo look like, well, the above.

I’m sure that has nothing to do with the relative skill levels required to play the respective classes.

Harper.4173:

Great evidence – a battle between a decent warrior and the world’s worst necromancer.
I like how it takes him a full FOUR ( 4 ) Seconds to dodge out or walk out of the warrior’s F1 longbow fire field at minute 1.

I love how these 1 v 1s are always proof that warrior is OP – especially when the person he’s fighting has absolutely NO idea what they’re doing.

Yes, because the entirety of my argument was hinged upon that video, and your discrediting it has completely blown every piece of my argument to pieces. I must now hide my face away from society in the shadows, while you stand on top of the intellectual pyramid looking down upon hordes of fanatical peasants.

On a more serious note, the warrior did virtually nothing as well. Even if the necro didn’t play well, you’d figure that he’d at least be able to have +3k damage on the warrior at one point during the fight, given that the minions were obviously doing damage. I mean- even in a fight between a complete noob and a pro player, unless the pro is either super tanky or insanely bursty (the warrior here obviously didn’t build to be extremely tanky, and he clearly wasn’t extremely bursty either), you’d figure that you’d at least be able to deal 3k damage to the opponent. Does it really take 8 noobs (assuming no or minimal diminishing marginal returns) to kill one warrior?

Also, since I’m addressing you here, I should address your point about HealSig. Do you know how long it takes for HealSig to outheal thief’s Withdraw, for example? On average, 11.08 seconds maximum. With Endure Pain, 18k base health, heavy armor, Cleansing Ire, and Adrenal Health, you should be able to last at least this long unless you spend the first 3-5 seconds of the fight just standing in place, in which case the thief would still be lucky to kill you anyways. It’s not like warriors have some insane weakness to burst, especially when some of their most fundamental mechanics to their builds hard-counter burst and direct damage in general anyways.

Remember when arena net stopped nerfing warriors? Because i dont. This thread consists of people who dont play warriors and are complaining because they get killed in spvp or wvw.

I cant out dmg warrior signet….
It heals too much….
it takes no skill…
Its passive so i cant interupt it…

if you cant out dmg 400 a second you arent doin a dmg spec you are bunker and in that case I AM SORRY DID YOU WANT TO BUNKER AND DO MAD DEEPS?

it heals for 400 a tick most classes can auto swing twice in that time and do QUADRUPLE THAT AMOUNT WORTH OF DMG it literally cannot outheal any condition, it struggles to keep you hp at what it would be if you were not getting hit in combat. Did you guys want to put up conditions run away and kill some one? or white swing kill? ALSO EVER HEARD OF POISONS? BLINDS? IMMOBILIZE? DAZES? CONFUSIONS? FEARS? i am gonna stop now cause i will end up listing everything.

it takes no skill really? spamming heart seeker is hard? perhaps summoning minions is exhausting, ranger spirits are out of the question obviously no one here heard about those. STEALTH IS SO HARD AND TAKES SO MUCH SKILL “Ohh boy i stealthed get me a towel, i need to wipe the sweat off”

my personal favorite “its passive you cant interrupt it” you really want to interrupt 400 hp heal? or do you want to interrupt a 1500 heal on use that the signet has?

Julie Yann.5379:

Qaelyn.7612:

nicknamenick.2437:

Because we get these QQ post now every minute… people getting tired of this dumb kitten.

The posts about warriors continue because the class is broken and it isn’t being fixed. It’s as simple as that.

No class should combine high defense, high HP, high healing, high mobility and a super low skill floor the way warriors do.

The thing is, Warrior is the one only classes that isn’t broken and that is the problem. Thiefs can’t breath without stealth (broken), Mesmers are only good for portal, TW, veil, and spamming clones while running away (broken). Necros are kind of in a good place at the moment but it’s nall cause of 2 things Dhuumfire and Death shroud (broken). All an Engi has to do is spam all is skills and run a circle auto attacking his rifle (also broken). Eles have amazing potential but to have to be a God to play it to that effect (broken). Guardian is in a good place as well could still use a few tweaks (not broken). Rangers are just bad, aside from the spirit build in PvP they have nothing going for them, kittenty pet AI, bad trait synergy, bad weapon skills, and some of the worst players I ave ever seen controlling them( terribly broken). Like I said before, the problem is with the other classes.

You certainly aren’t wrong that other classes have been ignored or actively dumped on by ArenaNet.

Would it be wonderful if ArenaNet would get their kitten together and start making progress on class balance? YES!

But in the year+ this game has been out they have made 0 progress. I’m not looking for Class Balance Valhalla, I’m just looking for some small sign that ArenaNet isn’t clueless.

Nerfing Healing Signet would be a good start.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Harper.4173:

I’m not saying burst out 22k. I’m saying slowly take some hp down and then burst around 10k. I’ve seen thieves do this so many times it hurts.
Or is it that there are no builds on any class that can damage more than 400 damage per second?

There’s one problem here, the MAIN problem I have with Healing Signet…it’s 400 HP a second. A SECOND. And it’s on all the time. If anything that doesn’t have above average power attacks the Warrior, they are NEVER going to lower the Warrior’s HP, meaning condition builds can’t do kitten to them. I’ve tried with my trap Ranger, to no avail because he keeps dropping the conditions faster than I can keep them up thanks to Cleansing Ire combining with it. The same has gone on with any tank, support, or any other condition build on different classes. It’s not possible to outdo that healing power if you’re not specced towards power.

This is the main reason why it’s OP, it pretty much makes anything not power or zerker worthless against them. I don’t mind it when it’s an actual tank build Warrior surviving, as that’s what a tank is supposed to do. It’s when I’m fighting a zerker and can’t do enough damage to outdo the signet is it a sign that it’s too kitten much.

Warrior’s buffs were intended to be the ruin of the old condition meta. Before this came along the meta was " Spam conditions to win".
You need a power build. This is what a meta shift is.

B is better versus A. more players play B. After a while along comes C being better than B and players shift to C. You need to get on whatever beats C.

Also Milkzz makes a good point.

Arganthium.5638:

Harper.4173:

Great evidence – a battle between a decent warrior and the world’s worst necromancer.
I like how it takes him a full FOUR ( 4 ) Seconds to dodge out or walk out of the warrior’s F1 longbow fire field at minute 1.

I love how these 1 v 1s are always proof that warrior is OP – especially when the person he’s fighting has absolutely NO idea what they’re doing.

Yes, because the entirety of my argument was hinged upon that video, and your discrediting it has completely blown every piece of my argument to pieces. I must now hide my face away from society in the shadows, while you stand on top of the intellectual pyramid looking down upon hordes of fanatical peasants.

On a more serious note, the warrior did virtually nothing as well. Even if the necro didn’t play well, you’d figure that he’d at least be able to have +3k damage on the warrior at one point during the fight, given that the minions were obviously doing damage. I mean- even in a fight between a complete noob and a pro player, unless the pro is either super tanky or insanely bursty (the warrior here obviously didn’t build to be extremely tanky, and he clearly wasn’t extremely bursty either), you’d figure that you’d at least be able to deal 3k damage to the opponent. Does it really take 8 noobs (assuming no or minimal diminishing marginal returns) to kill one warrior?

Also, since I’m addressing you here, I should address your point about HealSig. Do you know how long it takes for HealSig to outheal thief’s Withdraw, for example? On average, 11.08 seconds maximum. With Endure Pain, 18k base health, heavy armor, Cleansing Ire, and Adrenal Health, you should be able to last at least this long unless you spend the first 3-5 seconds of the fight just standing in place, in which case the thief would still be lucky to kill you anyways. It’s not like warriors have some insane weakness to burst, especially when some of their most fundamental mechanics to their builds hard-counter burst and direct damage in general anyways.

If want to be taken seriously don’t post something like that. It has zero relevance.
I’m not going to address your argument if you include a video like that. It’s just plain wrong.

The minions he wasn’t even using properly you mean?

Also regarding thief and burst – you do realize a fight with a thief doesn’t start with each of them staring at each other.
A stealth thief can crit my knight warrior in WvW for 1/2 my HP. That’s how a fight with a thief usually starts.

Arganthium.5638:

Ele- don’t even start that crap with me. Ether Renewal is an absolutely godawful source of condi removal, if only because of the fact that it is so easily interruptible.

If you are constantly interrupted – this is your personal l2p issue.

Engineer- that “large” part isn’t really that large, and relies on your allies being at least somewhat close to you

What is on-point fighting. Also, lol’d at “heavy armor” argument.

Arganthium.5638:

Guardian- if you can’t wait until Shelter is finished to burst an opponent, you shouldn’t play a burst build.

Everybody will suddenly stop unloading abilities bunker at first sight of shelter. In imaginary world, I presume.

Arganthium.5638:

Necro- necros don’t have that many ways to get rid of condis already

We talking about healing skills, and you are trying to switch topic.

Arganthium.5638:

Ranger- not many other condi clears in the first place outside of Empathic Bond (which is getting nerfed/debugged anyways). Rangers also have very, very few ways to actually utilize the water field by themselves

Ranger have blast and leaps, and ofc you again trying to slip away by “forgetting” about teammates who can utilize this field even more. Also -“heavy armor” argument again, lol.

Arganthium.5638:

Thief- you can easily get gap creators with weapons like Sword and Greatsword. The condition clear only applies to very specific condis, and honestly neither of those are enough to justify not getting 392/360 HPS with no cast time whatsoever.

Aka you again trying to switch from skill discussion to class discussion.

Arganthium.5638:

Warrior- so we’ve finally gotten here… Do you still really believe that Healing Signet is weaker than or on average with other healing skills in the game? It has no cast time (meaning no lost damage potential, no lost defensive potential, and no lost healing potential), is less counterable by poison (you have to maintain constant poison uptime in order to get the full reduction from poison), and, when combined with warrior’s other amazing defensive options, is downright OP. Cleansing Ire and Zerker Stance get rid of most of the problems with conditions that warriors ever have. Meanwhile, warrior still has the highest base health in the game except for necro, which doesn’t have the 14% damage reduction from heavy armor anyways.

And that’s why we see so much warrior bunkers in tPvP instead of guardians. Oh wait, we don’t.
Also, you always forgetting to point at little thing about your “heavy armor” arguments. 14% between heavy and light armor is in 0-0-0-0-0 build without any bonuses and stats, aka glassiest glass. Any defensive stats are decreasing this % rapidly.

Kargath.6598:

This thread consists of people who dont play warriors and are complaining because they get killed in spvp or wvw.

It has a lot of different people. What most have in common is that they can see the elephant in the living room: warriors are overpowered compared to other classes in most contexts, and Arenanet for whatever reason seems to have no problem with this.

Kargath.6598:

if you cant out dmg 400 a second you arent doin a dmg spec you are bunker and in that case I AM SORRY DID YOU WANT TO BUNKER AND DO MAD DEEPS?

This argument is constantly repeated and is a fallacy. The issue isn’t that people can’t do 400 DPS… the issue is that:

1. Warriors get to basically subtract 400 DPS off of everything done by everyone in all situations.
2. Their ability to do this is passive and automatic.
3. It exceeds the healing ability of other classes that arguably need healing more.
4. They combine this OP healing with some of the best immunity abilities, a high health pool, high armor and high mobility, which makes many of them nearly impossible to kill, even when outnumbered.

I’m sure that these points will continue to be ignored in favor of “ermagawd, can’t u do 400 deeps?!?!!” but that won’t make them go away.

Kargath.6598:

it takes no skill really?

Well, not no skill, but certainly a lot less than other classes. Even the more honest warrior-defenders admit that.

Qaelyn.7612:

Kargath.6598:

This thread consists of people who dont play warriors and are complaining because they get killed in spvp or wvw.

It has a lot of different people. What most have in common is that they can see the elephant in the living room: warriors are overpowered compared to other classes in most contexts, and Arenanet for whatever reason seems to have no problem with this.

Kargath.6598:

if you cant out dmg 400 a second you arent doin a dmg spec you are bunker and in that case I AM SORRY DID YOU WANT TO BUNKER AND DO MAD DEEPS?

This argument is constantly repeated and is a fallacy. The issue isn’t that people can’t do 400 DPS… the issue is that:

1. Warriors get to basically subtract 400 DPS off of everything done by everyone in all situations.
2. Their ability to do this is passive and automatic.
3. It exceeds the healing ability of other classes that arguably need healing more.
4. They combine this OP healing with some of the best immunity abilities, a high health pool, high armor and high mobility, which makes many of them nearly impossible to kill, even when outnumbered.

I’m sure that these points will continue to be ignored in favor of “ermagawd, can’t u do 400 deeps?!?!!” but that won’t make them go away.

Kargath.6598:

it takes no skill really?

Well, not no skill, but certainly a lot less than other classes. Even the more honest warrior-defenders admit that.

And it automatically has to be the players screaming warriors are OP And not the devs balancing the game who are right?

Also – Healing signet outheals other abilities PASSIVELY. You’re forgetting the trade-off that if you need a large amount of healing in a short amount of time to counter a burst you CANNOT do that. But of course selectively looking at the problem is your best way to go about it isn’kitten

The devs have not only announced a HS nerf but also said that OTHER changes that they couldn’t fit in the livestream are coming.

People have ALREADY begun complaining about HS – with the patch not even live yet.
This proves one thing :

People don’t really care about the balance – if they did they would save their complaints and constructive feedback for a time AFTER the patch goes live and we get to see how ALL the changes ( not just the warrior ones) impact gameplay in both PVE and PVP.

People hate warriors and warrior players and are just malicious and biased against them – the fact that the complaints have started ALREADY proves that.
Instead of waiting to see if the game will be balanced or not they’re all over this post and other posts throwing a fit because warriors weren’t burned at the stake.
This left them dissatisfied and frustrated.

So yes – this isn’t really as much about balance as it is about some people not getting what they want and crying over and over because of it.

Harper.4173:

And it automatically has to be the players screaming warriors are OP And not the devs balancing the game who are right?

Also – Healing signet outheals other abilities PASSIVELY. You’re forgetting the trade-off that if you need a large amount of healing in a short amount of time to counter a burst you CANNOT do that. But of course selectively looking at the problem is your best way to go about it isn’kitten

The devs have not only announced a HS nerf but also said that OTHER changes that they couldn’t fit in the livestream are coming.

People have ALREADY begun complaining about HS – with the patch not even live yet.
This proves one thing :

People don’t really care about the balance – if they did they would save their complaints and constructive feedback for a time AFTER the patch goes live and we get to see how ALL the changes ( not just the warrior ones) impact gameplay in both PVE and PVP.

People hate warriors and warrior players and are just malicious and biased against them – the fact that the complaints have started ALREADY proves that.
Instead of waiting to see if the game will be balanced or not they’re all over this post and other posts throwing a fit because warriors weren’t burned at the stake.
This left them dissatisfied and frustrated.

So yes – this isn’t really as much about balance as it is about some people not getting what they want and crying over and over because of it.

So people are unable to come to conclusions and infer something is bad based on personal experience and playtime? I hope that you include yourself in that set.

And besides everything, everyone- including yourself- seem to agree that HS’s passive is overpowered.
Just look at your pitiful argument that since it takes time to heal up, which makes it weak against burst damage.
Well guess what?
Healing signet has a godkitten burst heal as it’s active but no one uses it because the passive effect is overpowered and you lose it while it’s on cooldown.

Ain’t that something?

Harper.4173:

And it automatically has to be the players screaming warriors are OP And not the devs balancing the game who are right?

I’m assessing who’s right based on what I see when I play. What I see is far more than 12.5% of players on warriors, especially in WvW. What I see is those players having combinations of offensive and defensive abilities that outstrip what’s available to most other classes, which is a big part of why there are so many of them.

Harper.4173:

Also – Healing signet outheals other abilities PASSIVELY. You’re forgetting the trade-off that if you need a large amount of healing in a short amount of time to counter a burst you CANNOT do that. But of course selectively looking at the problem is your best way to go about it isn’kitten

In theory this is a reasonable trade-off. The problem is that warriors have so many tools at their disposal to negate the downside risk of a high-passive/low-active healing skill. If they’re getting nuked, they just pop a “you can’t hurt me for N seconds” ability, or simply run away — healing 400/s the whole time they run.

This is what people keep saying and keeps being ignored: it’s not the healing by itself, it’s the healing combined with the immunities, high armor, high health and high mobility.

Harper.4173:

The devs have not only announced a HS nerf but also said that OTHER changes that they couldn’t fit in the livestream are coming.

Right. Well, we’ll see what those are. We can only comment on what they’ve actually announced, and I’ll point out that “there’s more coming!” is a pretty standard and meaningless catchphrase.

Harper.4173:

People hate warriors and warrior players and are just malicious and biased against them – the fact that the complaints have started ALREADY proves that.

No, it doesn’t.

It proves that people believe that the announced change is insufficient and that more needs to be done to fix an overpowered class that can do too much for the ability it requires.

And that they are frustrated what they (correctly) perceive as a stubborn unwillingness on the part of Arenanet to accept that they’ve created a situation where one class dominates most of the others.

Aveneo.2068:

My Mesmer (full zerker gear) once landed an iZerker on a Warrior while he was just standing there and attacking a gate with his longbow in WvW. By the time the iZerker did another pass the Warrior’s signet had already healed him back up to full.

So he could simply ignore the iZerker because his passive signet+ passive regeneration (Dogged March) was enough to keep him at max health.

This happened to me as well. Warriors can literally ignore an iZerker entirely.

tom.7468:

They are nerfing healing signet happy? You may stop the QQ now the skill will be nerfed. Sooner or later you must admit you are a terrible player if you cant outdps it.

It is barely a nerf, like 35hps is nothing and you can bet that the active will be buffed more than the passive was nerfed…

Kiriakulos.1690:

Harper.4173:

And it automatically has to be the players screaming warriors are OP And not the devs balancing the game who are right?

Also – Healing signet outheals other abilities PASSIVELY. You’re forgetting the trade-off that if you need a large amount of healing in a short amount of time to counter a burst you CANNOT do that. But of course selectively looking at the problem is your best way to go about it isn’kitten

The devs have not only announced a HS nerf but also said that OTHER changes that they couldn’t fit in the livestream are coming.

People have ALREADY begun complaining about HS – with the patch not even live yet.
This proves one thing :

People don’t really care about the balance – if they did they would save their complaints and constructive feedback for a time AFTER the patch goes live and we get to see how ALL the changes ( not just the warrior ones) impact gameplay in both PVE and PVP.

People hate warriors and warrior players and are just malicious and biased against them – the fact that the complaints have started ALREADY proves that.
Instead of waiting to see if the game will be balanced or not they’re all over this post and other posts throwing a fit because warriors weren’t burned at the stake.
This left them dissatisfied and frustrated.

So yes – this isn’t really as much about balance as it is about some people not getting what they want and crying over and over because of it.

So people are unable to come to conclusions and infer something is bad based on personal experience and playtime? I hope that you include yourself in that set.

And besides everything, everyone- including yourself- seem to agree that HS’s passive is overpowered.
Just look at your pitiful argument that since it takes time to heal up, which makes it weak against burst damage.
Well guess what?
Healing signet has a godkitten burst heal as it’s active but no one uses it because the passive effect is overpowered and you lose it while it’s on cooldown.

Ain’t that something?

You must not be very thorough in your research.
You cannot come to a conclusion based on " experience" and infer what’s going to happen when the patch notes haven’t even been released. Not to mention the patch going live.

The devs also pointed out that they’re also going to change other things including stuff that they can’t talk about and made mention that when said information is released these changes that they’ve proposed will make more sense.

I have never agreed the passive is overpowered – I believe the skill offers a strong passive with an active that isn’t as useful. There’s a trade off.
What i’ve said is that I agree with the dev balance change – 30hp/s is a good trade-off for a more useful active.

Also – with your final paragraph you have disqualified yourself entirely – at least in my opinion.
Healing Signet was designed to be a PASSIVE HEALING SKILL. That will give warriors PASSIVE SUSTAIN.

You know – the passive sustain we’d been asking for ever since the game launched.
It was NEVER DESIGNED TO HAVE A BURST SKILL FUNCTION – and the fact that the active is that weak PROVES IT.

The whole idea was to balance the skill by having STRONG PASSIVE with a WEAK but marginally useful active.

Hopefully by using some words in upper it’ll be easier for you to follow and you’ll get it. The skill was never intended to be an ACTIVE BURST HEAL – we already have those – look up HEALING SURGE ( http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Surge )

Qaelyn.7612:

It proves that people believe that the announced change is insufficient and that more needs to be done to fix an overpowered class that can do too much for the ability it requires.

And that they are frustrated what they (correctly) perceive as a stubborn unwillingness on the part of Arenanet to accept that they’ve created a situation where one class dominates most of the others.

Bunker : Guardian > Warrior
Support and healing allies : Ele/ Guardian > Warrior
Solo roaming in WvW : Mesmer > Warrior
Single target damage ( PVP) : Thief / Mesmer > Warrior
Single target damage ( PVE) : Ele/Thief/Guardian > Warrior
Might stacking: Ele/ Guardian > Warrior
Utility ( PVE – blocks, reflects, boons): Guardian> Warrior
Condition damage: Necro/Engineer> Warrior

Explain to me again how warriors do too much for the ability it takes to play one?
Also playing a warrior RIGHT in HIGH-END situations is difficult. It’s the in-between areas where the class is simpler than others but then again as I’ve posted above it cannot specialize as well.
Or are you going to ignore that now and just rant on about the 30/30/30/30/30 4 weapon set build?

MiLkZz.4789:

Oh please, you are really going to pick a fight with a highly experienced warrior player?
1) Dogged march only affects movement impairing effects, engis and eles have this trait aswel. So your damage stays on

Neither engi nor ele get regeneration (without internal cooldown!) when hit by those conditions with their traits. AND their respective traits are master tier instead of adept.

Harper.4173:

Explain to me again how warriors do too much for the ability it takes to play one?

I already did, several times. You ignored all those arguments, so it seems pointless to repeat them.

The fact that there’s one class that’s better than them in a few particular areas. It’s that the overall package is overpowered.

Harper.4173:

Qaelyn.7612:

It proves that people believe that the announced change is insufficient and that more needs to be done to fix an overpowered class that can do too much for the ability it requires.

And that they are frustrated what they (correctly) perceive as a stubborn unwillingness on the part of Arenanet to accept that they’ve created a situation where one class dominates most of the others.

Bunker : Guardian > Warrior
Support and healing allies : Ele/ Guardian > Warrior
Solo roaming in WvW : Mesmer > Warrior
Single target damage ( PVP) : Thief / Mesmer > Warrior
Single target damage ( PVE) : Ele/Thief/Guardian > Warrior
Might stacking: Ele/ Guardian > Warrior
Utility ( PVE – blocks, reflects, boons): Guardian> Warrior
Condition damage: Necro/Engineer> Warrior

Explain to me again how warriors do too much for the ability it takes to play one?
Also playing a warrior RIGHT in HIGH-END situations is difficult. It’s the in-between areas where the class is simpler than others but then again as I’ve posted above it cannot specialize as well.
Or are you going to ignore that now and just rant on about the 30/30/30/30/30 4 weapon set build?

Warrior > Guardian
Warrior > Ele
Warrior > Mesmer
Warrior > Engineer
Warrior > Ranger
Warrior > Thief
Warrior > Engineer

Stop with the silly arguments. Everyone knows warriors are overpowered. Hell the developers about 4 months ago acknowledged they overbuffed warriors. Every competitive player knows it. Every developer knows it. The only people who do not either are immensely biased or are bad at sPvP. Or both.

Jesus, look at the dev posts in this thread. They even acknowledge they made a mistake and overbuffed warriors.

The only reason why they are suggesting just an 8% decrease is that someone on that developer team is too proud to admit they made an egregious error.

Here’s 3 reasons to play anything other than a Warrior:

1. You take sadistic pleasure in being molested on a daily basis by warriors of various specs and builds

2. You would rather be benched on a treb/cata/guarding a node/pretending to make a difference by healing your team while Warriors do the killing/get all the action/assault nodes

3. You’re an idealist that thinks if they get better they’ll eventually be able to defeat Warriors.

The fact is…

Warrior = sadist
Everyone else = masochists

Troll away… uuum I mean respond in a constructive way

Thedenofsin.7340:

Harper.4173:

Qaelyn.7612:

It proves that people believe that the announced change is insufficient and that more needs to be done to fix an overpowered class that can do too much for the ability it requires.

And that they are frustrated what they (correctly) perceive as a stubborn unwillingness on the part of Arenanet to accept that they’ve created a situation where one class dominates most of the others.

Bunker : Guardian > Warrior
Support and healing allies : Ele/ Guardian > Warrior
Solo roaming in WvW : Mesmer > Warrior
Single target damage ( PVP) : Thief / Mesmer > Warrior
Single target damage ( PVE) : Ele/Thief/Guardian > Warrior
Might stacking: Ele/ Guardian > Warrior
Utility ( PVE – blocks, reflects, boons): Guardian> Warrior
Condition damage: Necro/Engineer> Warrior

Explain to me again how warriors do too much for the ability it takes to play one?
Also playing a warrior RIGHT in HIGH-END situations is difficult. It’s the in-between areas where the class is simpler than others but then again as I’ve posted above it cannot specialize as well.
Or are you going to ignore that now and just rant on about the 30/30/30/30/30 4 weapon set build?

Warrior > Guardian
Warrior > Ele
Warrior > Mesmer
Warrior > Engineer
Warrior > Ranger
Warrior > Thief
Warrior > Engineer

Stop with the silly arguments. Everyone knows warriors are overpowered. Hell the developers about 4 months ago acknowledged they overbuffed warriors. Every competitive player knows it. Every developer knows it. The only people who do not either are immensely biased or are bad at sPvP. Or both.

Jesus, look at the dev posts in this thread. They even acknowledge they made a mistake and overbuffed warriors.

The only reason why they are suggesting just an 8% decrease is that someone on that developer team is too proud to admit they made an egregious error.

Every one who compllains about warriors being too powerful needs to do 2 things

1) Go to the leader boards and ask top ranked what class they are playing I BET YOU ITS NOT WARRIOR

2) Play a warrior in spvp.

Harper.4173:

Warrior’s buffs were intended to be the ruin of the old condition meta. Before this came along the meta was " Spam conditions to win".
You need a power build. This is what a meta shift is.

B is better versus A. more players play B. After a while along comes C being better than B and players shift to C. You need to get on whatever beats C.

Also Milkzz makes a good point.

1 class getting such a buff does not equal a meta shift. MULTIPLE classes getting such a buff would be a meta shift. Just one getting it is an attempt to make that clkitten underpowered against the said meta. They need to add such a change in buff to other classes for the meta to change, but in this case such a change would be a passive meta, meaning passive would beat out against actives, something nobody wants.

Thedenofsin.7340:

- snip -

You aren’t exactly proving your point if you do the same exact thing as the person you are pointing out and making an overgeneralization. Rather, you probably could have tackled each point (Are warriors better or worse at bunkering than Guardians?) and made a valid argument as opposed to simply stating warriors are ‘overpowered’.

Fortunately, I am here to make things clear.

After playing warrior for some 2k+ hours, going through the ups and downs of the profession throughout several iterations, what I can confirm is that you are correct, warriors are in a strong state. But not for the reasons you specify.

Here are the actual reasons right now Warriors are strong:

- They are probably the only profession that across all their builds, can deal with the prominent condition meta decently. Between Cleansing Ire (The strongest trait to handle the meta), Dogged March, and Berserker Stance Warriors have a means to give themselves enough mitigation to handle a potent condition bunker profession to an extent. That ALONE makes them a reliable pick in PvP and gives them an edge in popularity (not to mention the warrior profession and class as a whole is a very popular one across all MMOs).

- With the above advantages, the ways to deal with any warrior lessen, and then those ways lessen even further depending on WHAT the warrior in question is running. Hambow, MaceShield/Greatsword, SS/Bow Condition, etc are all extremely different playstyles and stat-based builds that run a similar set-up to deal with the condition meta. All of these have different weaknesses and strengths which cause a huge balancing issue. If for instance a thief build hard-countered MaceShield/Greatsword but fell short against SS/Bow condition since blinds can’t really affect that build too well, then said thief’s build only works really well on one build. And with Warriors having a huge list of builds to choose from (This is actually something important to note), the counter to them diminishes further.

- This is something important to note. Despite all their advantages, in terms of a much longer variety of weapons and builds to choose from, the similar nature of all of them to a single tree of traits, how effective said traits are to dealing with the condition meta that no other profession can do the same with, Warriors are actually in a broken state:
>The other healing abilities do not even compare to the utility in terms of sustain that Healing Signet provides. Healing Surge is a punishment heal for the Warrior who really does not need that Adrenaline maxed-out on a use, and whose healing compares to healing signet only when a warrior is at maximum Adrenaline. Mending is outdated thanks to the appeal of the new condition defenses the warrior has received recently. Defiant Stance is stupidly beyond Situational to be considered viable…
> Defense Tree is extremely appealing considering its survivability thanks to the condition meta, whereas other trees like Strength or Arms need some substantial buffs to grant ideal alternatives to being just a tanky warrior. Right now there aren’t enough ‘extremes’ to the competitive warrior builds, there is no such thing as a true glass-cannon warrior that can do well in PvP since warriors don’t have access to stealth, aegis, or protection to help them close the gap. Many of their gap-closers are still bugged to all hell, and for god’s sake someone fix Earthshaker so it works on slopes!

Overall, Warriors are definitely in a better state than other classes. Friday’s reveal (despite how…‘casual’ it might have been) actually showed a line of changes that could be considered nerfs to the condition meta and buffs towards other builds. (The 10% damage loss from Crit % is acceptable if and only if they continue to make it harder for conditions to land and make some easily spammed conditions easier to remove either through waiting out their duration or simply cleansing.)

For instance, Pin Down got a huge nerf, Engi Poison Nade and Thief Choking Gas got hit, Deceptive Evasion got hit, Dhuumfire rework…

Just from what they stated in the livestream already conditions were hit pretty hard compared to power builds. …Actually, D/D Eles will shine even harder now with their abilities being more evasive, sustained and supporting.

I think I have probably deviated from the point a bit at this time, but overall the problem is not necessarily warriors, but the battlefield that is unfair to everyone else. So rather than make warriors into the previous husks that they were in PvP much like everyone else, wouldn’t it be better if other professions had more capabilities to handle conditions, or at least more viable builds in PvP?

Sykper.6583:

I think I have probably deviated from the point a bit at this time, but overall the problem is not necessarily warriors, but the battlefield that is unfair to everyone else. So rather than make warriors into the previous husks that they were in PvP much like everyone else, wouldn’t it be better if other professions had more capabilities to handle conditions, or at least more viable builds in PvP?

It’s easier for ANet to nerf 1 class than buff 7 others. ANet likes simple, makes them work less.

Arlette.9684:

Sykper.6583:

I think I have probably deviated from the point a bit at this time, but overall the problem is not necessarily warriors, but the battlefield that is unfair to everyone else. So rather than make warriors into the previous husks that they were in PvP much like everyone else, wouldn’t it be better if other professions had more capabilities to handle conditions, or at least more viable builds in PvP?

It’s easier for ANet to nerf 1 class than buff 7 others. ANet likes simple, makes them work less.

It’s not the right solution. Simple does not always make it right, you can’t make chess into checkers and expect things to play the same.