Guild Wars 2

Ayrilana.1396:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

I think the heart of the issue here is that you’re anti-Capitalism.

You made me laugh and cry at the same time. And you just needed one sentence to do so! Is that the only argument you’ve got? everyone who’s saying something against ANet, the game or its ecomony is an anti-capitalist now?
Sounds convincing.

He’s going by that poster’s previous posts and not simply because that poster has something against Anet or the economy. There’s a lot more to it than just in this thread.

Oh I have him seen accusing far too many people as anti-capitalists, me included, to believe in anything he says.

He’s going by that poster’s previous posts and not simply because that poster has something against Anet or the economy. There’s a lot more to it than just in this thread.

Yeah, but it’s still a patently incorrect claim. It’s basically like saying that someone who opposes this or that political stance must be “anti-[American]” (or insert their country of origin).

While I disagree with eithinan, Ohoni appears to lack any understanding of basic market forces of an open economic system where prices aren’t set by some central authority and where personal wealth is the result of individual action rather than a fix amount simply by showing up. He repeatedly suggests a cap on prices as well as a cap on player income from certain activities as well as an aggressive tax on those that trade in large quantities on the TP.

None of those suggest he’s a believer in laissez-faire capitalism, actually more of the opposite to it.

When ANet does start to limit RNG, and they have to limit RNG, the economy will be hit anyways, so I don’t really care about that. And the most “prestigeous” items shouldn’t be on the TP anyways, you should earn them, not buy them.

And I would like to remind you all that this is a game. If the economy turns out to not fit this game, it gets removed or altered. The economy as it is now or the current balance of the economy isn’t set in stone.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

When ANet does start to limit RNG, and they have to limit RNG, the economy will be hit anyways, so I don’t really care about that. And the most “prestigeous” items shouldn’t be on the TP anyways, you should earn them, not buy them.

And I would like to remind you all that this is a game. If the economy turns out to not fit this game, it gets removed or altered. The economy as it is now or the current balance of the economy isn’t set in stone.

There are two ends to reward systems. One is reward based on specific activity, do X to get Y and one where Y can drop from doing any activity.

The first forces players to do something that they may not want to do to get Y. This is one of the complaints in WildStar, that certain drops are only available in hard core raids, which makes the item very prestigious. If you are sporting one you must of got it from doing X.

The other, which we have makes it seem virtually impossible to get Y unless you are willing to buy it off the TP, which sinks gold to reduce overall inflation. You can also take your pile of money, buy exotics and toss them into the Mystic Slot machine and hope you get all 7s. You still may not get the precursor you want but that’s what the TP is for, sell what you don’t want to buy what you do (again sinking gold in the process). In this method if you are sporting one you are either lucky or rich.

And yes there is a range of other options between those two extremes for rewards and that discussion is best over on the RNG thread. This started as the counter thread to all the “PRECURSOR INFLATION!!!!” threads that pop up everytime there’s a temporary spike in the price of a popular precursor. Of course this thread’s mere existence enrages those of the “PRECURSOR INFLATION!!!!” mindset.

As long as it is encouraged to do the content to get what you want instead of getting gold to buy what you want, which is not. It is way easier to just get the gold to buy stuff instead of going out and do things to get that stuff. RNG plays a huge part in this process but the economy gets also affected. If the RNG gets limited, if you can’t get everything from every mob anymore, which is a good thing, the economy would definitely start to stutter, simply because the TP gets mainly fueld by RNG drops which the players don’t want or don’t need.
My suggestion is that it should be faster to go for the item you want directly instead of farming up gold to get it. This would definitely create some turbulences but it would improve the game.
Offtopic, but that are my 2 cents.

None of those suggest he’s a believer in laissez-faire capitalism, actually more of the opposite to it.

I’m certainly not a believe in laissez-faire capitalism, as I believe that leads to over-concentration of wealth and an eventual decline in standard of living for the vast majority (after a brief bubble period). That doesn’t mean I don’t believe in capitalism though, it just means that, as in all things, it must be handled with moderation. The markets need to have a certain amount of room to move and adapt, but there must always be methods in place to reduce the divide between those most and least successful at adapting.

There are two ends to reward systems. One is reward based on specific activity, do X to get Y and one where Y can drop from doing any activity.

The first forces players to do something that they may not want to do to get Y. This is one of the complaints in WildStar, that certain drops are only available in hard core raids, which makes the item very prestigious. If you are sporting one you must of got it from doing X.

There are alternatives though. There are methods that are like “Do X to get Y,” but that allow for multiple different “X’s,” so that if one doesn’t appeal to you, then hopefully at least one other will. This was discussed in the RNG thread. The important thing is that while pure RNG, take your chances, can be an option, it should never be the ONLY option, and neither should the only alternative to it to buy it off the TP from someone else who was luckier. There should always be a “plug away at the game” method of earning the item directly from the system, without having to interact with the economy to do so.

Specific to Precursors, the existing methods are fine as options, but are not sufficient to be the only options. There should also be options in which a player can complete tasks and collect items in a linear and predictable process towards earning their Precursor of choice. The Luminous Armor chains they recently added are perfect examples, although certainly much simpler to achieve than I would expect from a Precursor chase.

The Collection model seems an excellent basis to me though, make Precursors a one-time reward from a complex assortment of collected items, bosses killed, dungeons cleared, etc. The only thing they need to do is tone down the RNG elements in the existing system, for example things like the Rhendak’s Signet in the Treasure Hunter set, which drop way too rarely to consider a non-TP item).

This started as the counter thread to all the “PRECURSOR INFLATION!!!!” threads that pop up everytime there’s a temporary spike in the price of a popular precursor. Of course this thread’s mere existence enrages those of the “PRECURSOR INFLATION!!!!” mindset.

Well, because it’s entirely irrelevant to the point that those people are making, which is that the price of the desired Precursors have been rising continuously over time, whether or not the price remains relatively low for Precursors nobody wants.

Ohoni.6057:

I’m certainly not a believe in laissez-faire capitalism, as I believe that leads to over-concentration of wealth and an eventual decline in standard of living for the vast majority (after a brief bubble period). That doesn’t mean I don’t believe in capitalism though, it just means that, as in all things, it must be handled with moderation. The markets need to have a certain amount of room to move and adapt, but there must always be methods in place to reduce the divide between those most and least successful at adapting.

I don’t see why and you haven’t been able to explain it. WHY does there need to be a method to control the divide between haves and have not? I don’t starve to death or live on the streets if I was a have not in an MMO. What NEED is not being fulfilled for a have not player if you’re claiming there must be a need to control that divide? I just don’t see it.

There will never be a need to obtain and control wealth for players if it’s not based on things needed to ‘live’ in a game. You are advocating control because of perceived needs, not real ones. I don’t think that kind of logic flies with the most staunch opposers of capitalism. I’m not theorist but I don’t think there is even a social or political theory this would fall under. It’s just plain entitlement.

Give me one relevant example where ever increasing wealth disparity is a good thing.

It’s pretty widely accepted as a negative thing for both sociological and economical models. If you need examples just look at at human history.

I think you need to re-examine what entitlement means if you really believe in wealth disparity as a good or positively acceptable thing.

Edit……Better yet ask JS about the impact of increasing wealth disparity on an economy.

Essence Snow.3194:

Give me one relevant example where ever increasing wealth disparity is a good thing.

It’s pretty widely accepted as a negative thing for both sociological and economical models. If you need examples just look at at human history.

I think you need to re-examine what entitlement means if you really believe in wealth disparity as a good or positively acceptable thing.

Edit……Better yet ask JS about the impact of increasing wealth disparity on an economy.

JS said wealth disparity isnt a problem in GW2.

In terms of what? It might not be an macro economic problem atm, but it’s effects are showing for sure in both micro economic nature as well as the socioeconomic side of things. One thing I’ve noticed about JS is that he mainly focuses on the macro. He tends to either miss or ignore the micro ramifications and the non economic side of things.

The whole reason that Anet touted the wealth equality at the beginning of the game……wealth equality is much better than wealth disparity.

Think about any economy in history. Is history wrong?

Essence Snow.3194:

In terms of what? It might not be an macro economic problem atm, but it’s effects are showing for sure in both micro economic nature as well as the socioeconomic side of things. One thing I’ve noticed about JS is that he mainly focuses on the macro. He tends to either miss or ignore the micro ramifications and the non economic side of things.

The whole reason that Anet touted the wealth equality at the beginning of the game……wealth equality is much better than wealth disparity.

Think about any economy in history. Is history wrong?

Wealth disparity isnt a problem in terms of rich players being able to influence the game experience of poor players in a bad way.
Just because some players feel entitled to having the same items as rich players, does not warrant to make changes that have bad macroeconomic results.

I don’t see why and you haven’t been able to explain it. WHY does there need to be a method to control the divide between haves and have not? I don’t starve to death or live on the streets if I was a have not in an MMO. What NEED is not being fulfilled for a have not player if you’re claiming there must be a need to control that divide? I just don’t see it.

Because games work on some shared belief of fairness, that everyone is on a level playing field and can earn success. When some players distort that theory by making considerably more profits via TP than though adventuring gameplay, it breaks the social contract of the game and makes players feel their time is not valued by the game, leading to burn-out.

And besides which, the assertion was that I was “anti-capitalism” which is a real life economic principle that does not apply to a game world. My assertion is that I
m not opposed to it, so long as it’s balanced against the well being of society.

Everyone is just as capable of making profit on the TP as those that currently do now.

Is that the same as rich players (those on the high end of an increasing wealth disparity) feeling entitled to be the only ones with certain items? Does that warrant keeping the status quo in a GAME where the majority of players are unhappy about it. Heck I’m rich in the game but don’t feel that entitled to everything that others shouldn’t have it just b/c I do by virtue of my ig gold.

Please describe the bad macro economic results that could not be alleviated via Anet’s ability.

Ayrilana.1396:

Everyone is just as capable of making profit on the TP as those that currently do now.

It’s not a trading game. Why should they have to? When and if they start advertising it as such..I will gladly relinquish my stance.

Wealth disparity isnt a problem in terms of rich players being able to influence the game experience of poor players in a bad way.

But of course they can, and do. I mean, in the direct case, they can buy up massive amounts of high value materials and resell them, which distorts their natural sell level. They also provide a market for high cost items that would not exist if there didn’t exist people who could readily spend that much.

The secondary impact is more significant, as it means that you have people who make a lot of money, buying a lot of luxury goods. This cheapens their value to the average player. Having one Legendary is supposed to be a significant feat of gameplay time and dedication, not something you just pick up on the TP with your pocket money. It makes a mockery of the whole process.

Everyone is just as capable of making profit on the TP as those that currently do now.

No, they are not, because not everyone is as capable at dealing with money as some are. Besides, the simple facts do not play that out. Think about it, if everyone were equally good at playing the market, then NOBODY would become rich off of it. Unlike the rest of the game, the TP is a finite pool. For anyone to become rich off of it, they require an equal amount of wealth to be squandered by other players. If every players was equally able to recognize the ideal buy and sell options, then all that would happen is items would shift around at a 15% cost to the playerbase and nobody would turn a profit.

Look at Black lion Chests……..someone/s bought up…what roughly 16k gold worth (can’t remember offhand exactly…but it was a load) a while back, which has since increase said price duo fold.

edit take my numbers on this post with a grain of salt as I’ve been drinking a bit

Essence Snow.3194:

Ayrilana.1396:

Everyone is just as capable of making profit on the TP as those that currently do now.

It’s not a trading game. Why should they have to? When and if they start advertising it as such..I will gladly relinquish my stance.

Trading on the trading post is just as much an in-game activity as any other.

Ohoni.6057:

Everyone is just as capable of making profit on the TP as those that currently do now.

No, they are not, because not everyone is as capable at dealing with money as some are. Besides, the simple facts do not play that out. Think about it, if everyone were equally good at playing the market, then NOBODY would become rich off of it. Unlike the rest of the game, the TP is a finite pool. For anyone to become rich off of it, they require an equal amount of wealth to be squandered by other players. If every players was equally able to recognize the ideal buy and sell options, then all that would happen is items would shift around at a 15% cost to the playerbase and nobody would turn a profit.

The same can be said if Anet were to remove precursors from being RNG drops completely and instead lock them behind highly challenging content. You’d still be complaining.

Ayrilana.1396:

Trading on the trading post is just as much an in-game activity as any other.

I didn’t say it wasn’t. By all means traders should be able to earn equal amounts as any other legit method in the game.

Think of it this way…you have a snowboard tourny. You have lots of prizes for snowboarders. Snowboarders can earn/win up tp 10k dollars. Good stuff right? You also have a skiing half pipe which the prize is 0-50k and a sponsorship. Fantastic……but now anyone with sense will ask…..is that really a snowboard tourny?

The same can be said if Anet were to remove precursors from being RNG drops completely and instead lock them behind highly challenging content. You’d still be complaining.

Perhaps. I think a balance of options works best. The shortest solutions should require the highest skill, the longer solutions should require more dedication, but there should be methods of “plugging away” at earning a Precursors that do not involve gold. I could imagine a system in which gold could be used to buy Precursors and still have it feel like an achievement, but the GW2 TP has too devalued gold as a currency of merit for that to apply anymore.

Ohoni.6057:

Perhaps. I think a balance of options works best. The shortest solutions should require the highest skill, the longer solutions should require more dedication, but there should be methods of “plugging away” at earning a Precursors that do not involve gold. I could imagine a system in which gold could be used to buy Precursors and still have it feel like an achievement

So let’s say they added a longer solution that took as much effort and time as it would have taken to grind out the gold to get the precursor. Would you have an issue?

Let’s also say that they added a method that required as much skill and knowledge as it would take to earn the gold off the TP and then buy the precursor. Would you have an issue?

Ohoni.6057:

GW2 TP has too devalued gold as a currency of merit for that to apply anymore.

No. No it hasn’t.

So let’s say they added a longer solution that took as much effort and time as it would have taken to grind out the gold to get the precursor. Would you have an issue?

No, not really. I personally think the goal should be a bit shorter than that, and for people who have been wanting that sort of thing for two years now it wouldn’t hurt if they offered some sort of “time served” shortcut to the process, but it would basically fit the bill, and be far more satisfying than the existing methods.

Let’s also say that they added a method that required as much skill and knowledge as it would take to earn the gold off the TP and then buy the precursor. Would you have an issue?

Certainly not, if so I could knock one out in a week or two, and I’m not particularly skilled. As you say, anyone can earn the gold off the TP. For equivalent it would be, what, a few thousand CoF tokens or so?

Ohoni.6057:
GW2 TP has too devalued gold as a currency of merit for that to apply anymore.

No. No it hasn’t.

Of course it has. Anyone can get gold in the game, it takes no skill (depending on how you acquire it), and through many methods you don’t even have to leave town. You can buy things with it, but it does not confer any actual worth. It’d be like if the Nobel prize could be given to anyone who gives them $1000, who would care about it anymore?

Btw, you did not address the core point I was making in this paragraph:

Think about it, if everyone were equally good at playing the market, then NOBODY would become rich off of it. Unlike the rest of the game, the TP is a finite pool. For anyone to become rich off of it, they require an equal amount of wealth to be squandered by other players. If every players was equally able to recognize the ideal buy and sell options, then all that would happen is items would shift around at a 15% cost to the playerbase and nobody would turn a profit.

Namely that the current TP money making schemes only work by preying on less savvy players, and that if you were correct and everyone could and did do it themselves, there would be no more profit to go around. The existing state of the TP as a money making engine for a minority of the players relies on the laziness and naivete of the majority.

Ohoni.6057:

Btw, you did not address the core point I was making in this paragraph:

Think about it, if everyone were equally good at playing the market, then NOBODY would become rich off of it. Unlike the rest of the game, the TP is a finite pool. For anyone to become rich off of it, they require an equal amount of wealth to be squandered by other players. If every players was equally able to recognize the ideal buy and sell options, then all that would happen is items would shift around at a 15% cost to the playerbase and nobody would turn a profit.

Namely that the current TP money making schemes only work by preying on less savvy players, and that if you were correct and everyone could and did do it themselves, there would be no more profit to go around. The existing state of the TP as a money making engine for a minority of the players relies on the laziness and naivete of the majority.

Most money making schemes rely on the trader trading something else for profit. In all cases its gold investment and in most cases its fast return of gold to sellers, instant purchases for buyers or other time investment taken over by the trader for profit or taking the risk of RNG results, for example lootbags, crafting or salvaging.
Apparrantly alot of players rather sell their loot directly instead of listing it or wait a couple of weeks or months to sell it at a profit. Alot of players make a conscious choice to trade potential profit for convenience and they make that choice not because they dotn know better, they do it because they want an item now or they want their gold now.
All items get created by regular gameplay, outside the TP, so the regular player has the first choice of what to do with it, not the trader.

Ohoni.6057:

the GW2 TP has too devalued gold as a currency of merit for that to apply anymore.

This statement is so false that it borders on the absurd.

Essence Snow.3194:

Look at Black lion Chests……..someone/s bought up…what roughly 16k gold worth (can’t remember offhand exactly…but it was a load) a while back, which has since increase said price duo fold.

edit take my numbers on this post with a grain of salt as I’ve been drinking a bit

And the average player is getting more gold from selling them. They should thank this person/people.

Essence Snow.3194:

Look at Black lion Chests……..someone/s bought up…what roughly 16k gold worth (can’t remember offhand exactly…but it was a load) a while back, which has since increase said price duo fold.

edit take my numbers on this post with a grain of salt as I’ve been drinking a bit

And how exactly has that influenced the gameplay of regular players in a bad way?
If he bought up one of your chests in the process, you got gold in return and now, everytime you get a chest as drop, you get more copper than before for it.
I didnt see anybody complaining yet that he cant afford black lion chests for all the keys that drop for him.
For all we know, a rich guy spread 16k gold worth of his wealth to other players and you are giving him stick for it.

Don’t think I ever said it was in a bad way. I was just showing the example of how one person or group or persons can have an influence on an item with high supply.

Ohoni.6057:

I don’t see why and you haven’t been able to explain it. WHY does there need to be a method to control the divide between haves and have not? I don’t starve to death or live on the streets if I was a have not in an MMO. What NEED is not being fulfilled for a have not player if you’re claiming there must be a need to control that divide? I just don’t see it.

Because games work on some shared belief of fairness, that everyone is on a level playing field and can earn success. When some players distort that theory by making considerably more profits via TP than though adventuring gameplay, it breaks the social contract of the game and makes players feel their time is not valued by the game, leading to burn-out.

And besides which, the assertion was that I was “anti-capitalism” which is a real life economic principle that does not apply to a game world. My assertion is that I
m not opposed to it, so long as it’s balanced against the well being of society.

Games aren’t based on a sense of fairness. There are always winners and losers. If everyone wins, what fun is that? Effort is rewarded. Prices will float to the level where supply dictates relative to demand. Few highly sought after items will be priced so only the richest among those desiring it can afford them. That’s as natural and accepted scientific law as gravity.

So unless supply is significantly increased or demand is curtailed because there is something even more desirable, prices aren’t going to change so more can afford them. You can demand change as much as you want, in another thread as this thread simply shows that not all precursors are priced high.

Ohoni.6057:

Because games work on some shared belief of fairness, that everyone is on a level playing field and can earn success.

No they aren’t at all. In fact, MMO’s are remarkably biased towards insightful players with large amounts of free time. While everyone has the same opportunity, not everyone will have the time or the foresight to take those opportunities. That’s not something Anet should prevent happening either. Otherwise, the game will just placate the lowest common denominator.

Essence Snow.3194:

Don’t think I ever said it was in a bad way. I was just showing the example of how one person or group or persons can have an influence on an item with high supply.

I think Wanze’s point is that it’s completely transparent to the average player that this happened, so it’s arguably a low impact issue to players.

Ayrilana.1396:

Everyone is just as capable of making profit on the TP as those that currently do now.

If you think about this a bit harder, you’ll realize it’s not true.

juno.1840:

Ayrilana.1396:

Everyone is just as capable of making profit on the TP as those that currently do now.

If you think about this a bit harder, you’ll realize it’s not true.

While I realize that not all players may be as smart as the best market traders, it’s something that anyone can learn. Buying and Selling is all about numbers. Skilled players can do it in their head, while some players need spreadsheets to visually see profits.

It’s a different form of PvP that’s a bit more unforgiving to the unskilled. In SPvP, you know for a fact that a majority of the player base will never beat one of the national tourney reps in a 1 vs 1 situation. The skill levels of some are just too much to overcome. But in TP PvP, you have tools like your windows calculator, or even Excel to help with math.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

juno.1840:

Ayrilana.1396:

Everyone is just as capable of making profit on the TP as those that currently do now.

If you think about this a bit harder, you’ll realize it’s not true.

While I realize that not all players may be as smart as the best market traders, it’s something that anyone can learn. Buying and Selling is all about numbers. Skilled players can do it in their head, while some players need spreadsheets to visually see profits.

It’s a different form of PvP that’s a bit more unforgiving to the unskilled. In SPvP, you know for a fact that a majority of the player base will never beat one of the national tourney reps in a 1 vs 1 situation. The skill levels of some are just too much to overcome. But in TP PvP, you have tools like your windows calculator, or even Excel to help with math.

Actually I was referring to the fact that a million players or more entering the TP will impact the market such that profits would not be the same as they are now. Flipping makes profit on the inefficiencies of the market. Those inefficiencies tighten the more players in the game. The other profit maker is supply, and there’s only so much demand, so again, profits drop.

I would think one of you market gurus would have identified this… but being a white knight does impact your sensitivity to facts.

That won’t happen though, so you’re just looking for an academic argument as a diversion. He’s just identifying that the game is inherently fair because everyone has equal opportunity to do the same things to earn money. He’s not saying everyone will, nor is he implying it would make everyone rich if they did. That’s where the idea that the game isn’t fair is stupid … it’s fair for everyone, it’s just not equal for everyone. That’s two different things and it’s player dependent. Nothing Anet can do will ensure everyone is ‘equal’.

To that extent what if they introduced repeatable very difficult PvE content that only a handfull of players could achieve and awarded gross amounts of gems as rewards. Something that could give possible limitless gems. Would that be okay?

Essence Snow.3194:

To that extent what if they introduced repeatable very difficult PvE content that only a handfull of players could achieve and awarded gross amounts of gems as rewards. Something that could give possible limitless gems. Would that be okay?

Anet isnt giving out profits on the TP, so your comparison fails.
Would it be ok, if there is a pve challenge for hard content, where all participants have to pay gems as an entrance fee and the winner takes all?

Certainly.

Ok then everyone who plays pve game puts in gems via gold or whatever. It’s tiered and at a certain tier you get your gems back. Then you don’t have to play, you can play to get your gems back, or you can win more via completing higher tiers.

Did you know that they introduced some epic Glorious armor as rewards for high ranking SPvP tourney players? That’s completely unfair to the TP players who aren’t skilled in organized combat. We should balance it so that everyone is able to get this new Glorious armor, since more happy players = better game. Instead of an unreasonable reward structure of Top 20 getting the armor, everyone who enters the tourney gets a piece.

/endsarcasm

Most money making schemes rely on the trader trading something else for profit. In all cases its gold investment and in most cases its fast return of gold to sellers, instant purchases for buyers or other time investment taken over by the trader for profit or taking the risk of RNG results, for example lootbags, crafting or salvaging.

Yeah, and there is perhaps some genuine profit to be fairly earned there, but in most cases it benefits from the trader having a better idea of the flow of the market, how quickly things move, where the price is likely to shift over a period of time, and how much cost is involved in producing a given item. If all players were equally aware of how each market works, then I doubt there would be space available for people to make more than pennies per trade.

I mean, you ask the average, know-nothing players, “do you want 30s for that now, or wait an indeterminate amount of time to get kitten” They might choose 30 now. But if you tell them they’re almost guaranteed to get that kitten by the time they log in tomorrow, then unless they are dead broke and having spending to do, the latter option would probably appeal to them. Everyone would be listing sell orders, nobody would be responding to buy orders for almost anything. Likewise on purchasing, although purchasing is at least a bit more likely to go for the quick move, since if you didn’t plan ahead you might need mats for something right away more likely than that you’d need a few silver right away.

To put it in PvP terms, the TP PKs only really get anythig out of it because of all the random newbs wandering into the open PvP area with zero situational awareness. If they actually had to copete directly with thousands of equally capable PvPers, they’d never get anywhere.

Games aren’t based on a sense of fairness. There are always winners and losers. If everyone wins, what fun is that?

That it’s fun. This is a cooperative game, not a competitive one. We’re fighting the system, not each other, and when everyone wins, everyone wins. The TP is one of the few hardcore PvP aspects that impacts the strictly PvE players. I would prefer a less PK-prone marketplace.

Anet isnt giving out profits on the TP, so your comparison fails.

They aren’t giving out loot either. They just put the loot on the mobs, and the players take the loot from the mobs. Then the layers put the loot on the TP, and players buy that loot off the TP. Ultimately though, the loot does come from ANet, it just depends how many hands it passes through along the way.

Did you know that they introduced some epic Glorious armor as rewards for high ranking SPvP tourney players? That’s completely unfair to the TP players who aren’t skilled in organized combat. We should balance it so that everyone is able to get this new Glorious armor, since more happy players = better game. Instead of an unreasonable reward structure of Top 20 getting the armor, everyone who enters the tourney gets a piece.

If you’re saying that the current method of getting Glorious armor is ridiculous then I would totally agree with you, and if I cared more about getting that armor set then I would be very upset about it. I don’t see why TP players are deserving of it though, as the TP is not an adventuring gameplay element, they have no need for armor.

Essence Snow.3194:

Ok then everyone who plays pve game puts in gems via gold or whatever. It’s tiered and at a certain tier you get your gems back. Then you don’t have to play, you can play to get your gems back, or you can win more via completing higher tiers.

That would change nothing at the fact that there are precursors available for under 100g on the trading post.

Ayrilana.1396:

Everyone is just as capable of making profit on the TP as those that currently do now.

Was that a joke or do you just not understand how money works?

Ohoni.6057:

Yeah, and there is perhaps some genuine profit to be fairly earned there, but in most cases it benefits from the trader having a better idea of the flow of the market, how quickly things move, where the price is likely to shift over a period of time, and how much cost is involved in producing a given item. If all players were equally aware of how each market works,

http://www.gw2spidy.com/

https://www.gw2tp.com/

http://www.gw2craftgold.com/

I dont see the problem, all players can be equally aware of the market trends using the tools available online. Those are 1/5 of the links I have that are easily found with google. Unless you are complaining that Anet isn’t spoon feeding that mass amount of data to the players.

Ohoni.6057:

If you’re saying that the current method of getting Glorious armor is ridiculous then I would totally agree with you, and if I cared more about getting that armor set then I would be very upset about it.

This… I just … wow.

Ohoni.6057:

I don’t see why TP players are deserving of it though, as the TP is not an adventuring gameplay element, they have no need for armor.

You have some weird fixation on players who play the TP, and think they only sit at the TP npc’s and do nothing else. That’s the beauty of working the TP. You can post some buy/sell orders and go play other aspects of the game.

eithinan.9841:

Ohoni.6057:

I don’t see why TP players are deserving of it though, as the TP is not an adventuring gameplay element, they have no need for armor.

You have some weird fixation on players who play the TP, and think they only sit at the TP npc’s and do nothing else. That’s the beauty of working the TP. You can post some buy/sell orders and go play other aspects of the game.

I also dont see why an adventure game shouldnt involve trading. Nobody ever complains about crafters making more gold than adventurers.

Adventures and trading go hand in hand and as this in an mmo, there should be trading between players.

No one is saying it shouldn’t. Idk why you keep trying to say people are saying things that they are not.

dietzero.3514:

Ayrilana.1396:

Everyone is just as capable of making profit on the TP as those that currently do now.

Was that a joke or do you just not understand how money works?

Everyone is capable.

EDIT:

I’ll expand on this to resolve my position in this offshoot of the discussion as others appears to have some confusion regarding my intent of that statement despite subsequent posts that should have cleared that.

A more grammatically correct way to state what I was saying would have been to say that anyone can make gold off the TP. However, this correction wasn’t necessary had you read my post, including the context behind it and subsequent posts, and realized that I wasn’t referring to the viability of it being used by everyone at once but instead that everyone is capable of developing the same skill set as those that currently make profit on the TP.

Since you wanted to bring up the viability side of things, I’ll go ahead and address my opinion on this as well. All of this is going under the assumption that everyone in the game does it just as you assumed was my intent in that statement. This is about viability rather than capability.

There are currently three major ways to make gold in this game:

• Flipping items on the TP
• Farming items to sell on the TP
• Through direct gold drops such as dungeons

There are many other ways but then tend to fit into one of those three categories more or less.

You assumed my statement was referring to the first one which is why I’ll address it first. Anyone can make gold by flipping items on the TP. There’s more to it than just looking at price spreads but players can figure it out if they’re willing to put the time and effort into it. This is similar to skill-based rewards that take time and effort as well. At the extreme, when everyone does it, the amount of profit to be made decreases diminishing the viability of TP flipping.

Items can also be farmed and then sold on the TP. When this is done to the extreme, with everyone doing it, those items get oversupplied and their value then drops. You’ll notice this occurred recently with several of the T5 and T6 materials during Halloween and the Amber chest farming. Other items were impacted such as that exotic jar trinket that I can’t name off the top of my head.

Players can also farm gold directly by doing dungeon runs although these have DR. Items can also be sold directly to the vendor but that’s far from optimum. When everyone does dungeon runs, the gold supply within the game increases. As people have more gold to spend, this will put the current prices of precursors within their grasp. As more people are actively trying to buy precursors, the price will increase as supply is relatively unchanged. The buying power of your gold in relation to buying precursors has diminished as more people farm gold.

I could go further and elaborate more but there’s really no point in doing so. Anything in this game, when done by everyone at the same time, loses it’s value as a method to make gold. Does this mean we can dismiss this method as a way to make gold because of this fact? No. It’s rare that everyone collectively focuses on just any of these methods to make them not viable and normally actions are taken to prevent this.

So yes, I know how money works. Do you?

I can’t believe this post is still going on :P
I think adding this might help: Most precursors sold on the TP are not to players with lots of money, they are to players that work hard at making a legendary. Players with a lot of money have that money because they don’t spend it. If they are buying precursors with it, then they don’t have it anymore. “the rich get richer” … because they don’t spend their riches. There are just so many people that want to make a legendary that the demand for precursors is higher than the supply of precursors, so their price increases.

It’s so funny seeing posts like “omg I just spent 2 months to grind enough gold and finally bought dusk for 1000g”, then a day later you’ll see: “omg I was trying to get 1000g to buy dusk and now it’s up to 1100g, I’ll never get it at the rate it’s inflating. stupid gold sellers for manipulating the market.”

Essence Snow.3194:

No one is saying it shouldn’t. Idk why you keep trying to say people are saying things that they are not.

Essence Snow.3194:

It’s not a trading game. Why should they have to? When and if they start advertising it as such..I will gladly relinquish my stance.

I wonder if any of the top PvP players would prefer to sell the Glorious Hero’s armor if they had the opportunity to.

I dont see the problem, all players can be equally aware of the market trends using the tools available online. Those are 1/5 of the links I have that are easily found with google. Unless you are complaining that Anet isn’t spoon feeding that mass amount of data to the players.

There are tools, and they help, but 1. The vast majority of players have no idea that they exist because they are not in engine, and 2. of those who do know that they exist, many do not know how best to use them. Again, the current market bonanza is entirely dependent on the ignorance of a large portion of the playerbase. If every player were equally as knowledgeable about how the market functions as the better traders are, then the current low-margin/high volume trades would offer only well below fee returns, and the current higher margin trades would close up. The only things you could turn a reasonable profit would be the long term investments, and that’s only if you guess right, because the things that are almost certain returns if you just hold onto them would shift more into the 50/50 column with more people competing to hoard them. The buy prices at the low end would rise, and the sell prices at the high would not rise equivalently.

This… I just … wow.

It should come as no shock that I pick my battles where I may. I fundamentally agree that Glorious armor should be more available, but it’s not a point upon which I care so much that I would crusade on it.

You have some weird fixation on players who play the TP, and think they only sit at the TP npc’s and do nothing else. That’s the beauty of working the TP. You can post some buy/sell orders and go play other aspects of the game.

My point is that those other aspects of the game should offer a higher return on the time invested than playing the TP, and that when they do not, it represents a toxic element of the economy.

I also dont see why an adventure game shouldnt involve trading.

Trading, yes, making money from money via trading, no. Every item sold in the TP should be an item that the seller generated himself into the world via crafting or loot. Every item purchased should be used by the person that purchases it, bought because he wanted it for his own use. Players should not be able to take gold, purchase items, then throw them back onto the market at some point at a higher rate and turn a profit.

The markets should be designed to make it easier for an adventurer to offload stuff he does not need in return for higher than vendor prices, or to find items that he wants but that would not drop for him through his adventuring play. There should not be a role for anyone in the middle of those two roles other than the TP itself.

You assumed my statement was referring to the first one which is why I’ll address it first. Anyone can make gold by flipping items on the TP. There’s more to it than just looking at price spreads but players can figure it out if they’re willing to put the time and effort into it. This is similar to skill-based rewards that take time and effort as well. At the extreme, when everyone does it, the amount of profit to be made decreases diminishing the viability of TP flipping.

Yes, but there are clear distinctions to be made between flipping and “skill based adventuring.” For one thing, you can flip hundreds of gold on a single trade with flipping, or in a more casual manner dozens. There are no activities in the game itself, no matter how skilled the player, that offer even remotely similar rewards. Second, of course, is that the TP is a PvP activity, the profits do not come from beating the game, it comes from beating other players, and for those that prefer the purely cooperative experience that the PvE content thrives on, this aspect is distasteful.

I can’t believe this post is still going on :P
I think adding this might help: Most precursors sold on the TP are not to players with lots of money, they are to players that work hard at making a legendary. Players with a lot of money have that money because they don’t spend it. If they are buying precursors with it, then they don’t have it anymore. “the rich get richer” … because they don’t spend their riches. There are just so many people that want to make a legendary that the demand for precursors is higher than the supply of precursors, so their price increases.

If you have 2000g, and you spend 1500 of it on a Legendary, then you’ll be put in a tight spot on the “making money” front, with a lot less capital to invest. If you have 10Kg or 15Kg, then dropping a couple thousand on a toy isn’t likely to set you back too badly in your progress. To say that a wealthy player in the game cannot buy a few legendaries and remain wealthy is like saying that the wealthy in the real world cannot buy a yacht and remain wealthy. They can do both.