Guild Wars 2

EgonVenkman.1907:

Fenrir.3609:

Rewards/loot for general gaming does need changing/tweaking, and hopefully the update on the 6th will go towards doing that. But expecting a cap to be placed on flipping, or thinking that flipping is the only “endgame” just seems somewhat odd to me.

While my own feelings are split, something should be done to pull the TP profit mongering down to match other areas of the game.

Anet has pretty much an anti-farm stance. While they can be slow to update things, they have continuously been making changes to locations where players are farming. Dungeon update, recent Arah farm spot change, etc..

To leave an area of the game completely uncapped, unregulated, etc. would not be good for the overall game. In short, it tells players, that in order to make gold, play the TP.

You and many others simply seem to be caught up in the suggestions for a fix, rather than acknowledging that a fix is needed. Whether it comes in the form of additional/increased fees, limits, or even a time limit on postings is irrelevant.

The anti farm stance is required, because farming is the number one cause of inflation in a game. The Trading Post on the other hand is the main tool used to combat inflation and thus won’t be nerfed.

To put it simply, if you limit profits from the TP, farming will be likewise need to be significantly nerfed in order to compensate for the loss of deflationary action.

EgonVenkman.1907:

While my own feelings are split, something should be done to pull the TP profit mongering down to match other areas of the game.

Anet has pretty much an anti-farm stance. While they can be slow to update things, they have continuously been making changes to locations where players are farming. Dungeon update, recent Arah farm spot change, etc..

To leave an area of the game completely uncapped, unregulated, etc. would not be good for the overall game. In short, it tells players, that in order to make gold, play the TP.

You and many others simply seem to be caught up in the suggestions for a fix, rather than acknowledging that a fix is needed. Whether it comes in the form of additional/increased fees, limits, or even a time limit on postings is irrelevant.

So you expect a zero risk venture which has little to zero player competition and which every player can do in a short frame of time, to have the same returns ceiling as a high risk venture which takes a large capital base to achieve and puts you in direct competition with other players?

As I mentioned before, general loot rewards could certainly do with being updated (and ANET seems to be in the process of that given the upcoming patch). But trying to “nerf” flipping seems utterly unwarranted.

Fermi.2409:

Pushing or pulling (ie market manipulation) can temporarily change a limited part of the market and increase or decrease the price of that part of the market drastically. HOWEVER, the market will soon return to a ‘normal’, balanced price as soon as the reseller is done.

That only works in regards to goods with constant supply. The problem with assuming that the supply is going to stay constant is that flipping yields far higher rewards than farming and flippers are reliant on farmers to make a profit in the first place.

But why farm so flippers can reap the biggest benefit? More and more farmers will ask themselves that question.

mtpelion.4562:

EgonVenkman.1907:

Fenrir.3609:

Rewards/loot for general gaming does need changing/tweaking, and hopefully the update on the 6th will go towards doing that. But expecting a cap to be placed on flipping, or thinking that flipping is the only “endgame” just seems somewhat odd to me.

While my own feelings are split, something should be done to pull the TP profit mongering down to match other areas of the game.

Anet has pretty much an anti-farm stance. While they can be slow to update things, they have continuously been making changes to locations where players are farming. Dungeon update, recent Arah farm spot change, etc..

To leave an area of the game completely uncapped, unregulated, etc. would not be good for the overall game. In short, it tells players, that in order to make gold, play the TP.

You and many others simply seem to be caught up in the suggestions for a fix, rather than acknowledging that a fix is needed. Whether it comes in the form of additional/increased fees, limits, or even a time limit on postings is irrelevant.

The anti farm stance is required, because farming is the number one cause of inflation in a game. The Trading Post on the other hand is the main tool used to combat inflation and thus won’t be nerfed.

.

Not necessarily. Shelt/pen/orr farms largely generate materials which do not affect gold inflation

Fungalfoot.7213:

Fermi.2409:

Pushing or pulling (ie market manipulation) can temporarily change a limited part of the market and increase or decrease the price of that part of the market drastically. HOWEVER, the market will soon return to a ‘normal’, balanced price as soon as the reseller is done.

That only works in regards to goods with constant supply. The problem with assuming that the supply is going to stay constant is that flipping yields far higher rewards than farming and flippers are reliant on farmers to make a profit in the first place.

But why farm so flippers can reap the biggest benefit? More and more farmers will ask themselves that question.

That’s like asking why corn farmers are still wasting their time growing corn when they could be trading ethanol futures. The answer is that they like growing corn, they know growing corn, and they have no interest in not growing corn.

Some farmers may switch to trading, and some may add a trading portfolio to their earnings, but most farmers are going to continue to farm because they don’t have the desire or knowledge to get into the trading meta.

Vol.5241:

Not necessarily. Shelt/pen/orr farms largely generate materials which do not affect gold inflation

Granted. I was referring to gold farming but didn’t clearly specify.

John Smith.4610:

Ensign.2189:

Conncept.7638:

And voila! Suddenly, people actually have to price things intelligently as in real world sales.

Because power traders make all kinds of money from putting items up for sale at prices where they don’t sell.

Power trading is a cash flow business. The faster your items sell the sooner you can re-invest and repeat the cycle. Power traders also become intimately familiar with the ebb and flow of prices in the markets they work in. If your item is sitting there for days on end you’re already kitten ed off from eating the 5% fee of having to re-list it on top of your money being locked up for those days.

Everything you just described would have very, very little impact on power traders (beyond volume restrictions, which would just make the bulk commodity markets a pain to work with) but would be even more punishing to the casual player that can’t keep up. You may have spun it impressively well, but there’s nothing here.

Except for the part about my feelings (I just got back from crying in a corner), everything Ensign says is correct.

And that’s why power traders focus only on things with high supply and demand where they can sometimes “overcharge” a little due to the urgency factor, or buy cheap and sell at market price.

But the typical rules of pricing does not apply to the other items because the forces that regulate the prices are just not there. Take the Legendaries for an extreme example: If I craft a legendary there is no incentive for me to sell it for less than, let’s say, 4000g because I don’t really care if it sells or not. I can bet that there are legendaries, exotics, dyes and skins in the TP that has been listed for months, and the overall prices will never go down because there is no reason for them to go down (The initial cost of posting it in the TP can be assumed to be sunken cost).

That’s the phenomena Conncept was referring about (besides hurting John feelings, of course). And that’s the phenomena that most people are seeing and crying to be fixed. And the only solution I have seen so far is to have the items listed for a limited time and then sent back (without refund of the posting cost) to the owner.

But broken economy? I really like the economy of GW2, where is quite difficult for a single person/entity to control the market. I just wish that I could do more by crafting and selling.

Hell Avenger.7021:

In the real world, trading doesn’t cause inflation. What are you talking about? Printing money cause inflation, so does money multiplier effect.

I was specifically speaking about power trading, not normal trading. In real life this could happen as well…that’s why there are laws against cartels and such. When the sellers dictate the price they cost more than they are really worth, that’s inflation, because your money is worth less for such items.

When a legendary costs 1500 gold, because the seller has patience and can wait till you earn that gold to buy it, you buy something that is not subject to basic supply/demand dynamics. That’s what power trading does as well. It raises prices, because people with money already have enough for their needs and use the surplus to play the market. Buy out all the cheap ones and sell at higher prices.

If, for example an items has a low end cost of 2 silver on the tp, someone with 100 gold to spare can buy them out and sell them for more. They know which items sell, so they know which ones to buy out. This way they can ask a lot more simply by reselling what they bought. That causes inflation.

To keep up with this Anet have upped and are upping gold rewards so it doesn’t take you as long to make that gold. New upcoming dungeon rewards are an example.

People will have more money, allowing the power traders to up their prices again. It’s a vicious circle.

Now I don’t say there are easy answers or solutions but GW2 is certainly a good place for issues like this.

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

stuff

flipping exists on all items, not just precursors, any item being sold at less than 15% of its sale value is worth flipping. The whole idea of stablizing the price would happen without the flippers, the only thing one can argue is that the flippers make it happen faster. However in a system where anyone can enter the market at any time, via hitting a tab, the real value of flippers is debatable. Also almost everything in the game is a material, exotics, are materials for precursors, or runes, minor sigils are materials for runes. green items are materials for rare items.

You keep referring to manipulation, i am not talking about manipulation here, that is a seperate issue. most flippers do not seek to corner the market, merely to seize opportunity created by a difference in percieved values of items. Flippers make more money of common transactions than high price items. Buying copper ores for 8 copper and selling them for 10 copper 100 yeilds 6.5% profit per transaction. its has an extremely high velocity, its better for a conservative flipper than trying to caching off precursors. only problem is profit is low per 250 stacks so you have to do a lot more management.

lets be honest here, for the average user, the fact that the flipper gave him 1 copper more per copper buy order is useless, the flipper takes it right back from him when he raises the buy order on the wood item he actually needs, or places the axe he needs on the TP.

The issue is that the system itself makes it much more likely for this to happen. If you want a glass sword, the only reliable way to obtain one is to buy it from the TP, if you want rare swords for trying to get a precursor, trying to obtain it by hunting will get you a ton of other items you probably have no use for. You have limited inventory, you MUST sell these items. The game forces people into business they have no idea about, and thus flippers are likely to find undervalued items

The flipper only makes money by buying low, or by selling high. thats it. Any time he profits, its either because he found a deal on an item, or he found some one willing to pay more.

IRL you can say the flipper does serve a purpose, he knows who has greater desire for an item, and who has less need for materials, but in the TP he isnt doing anything but putting himself in the middle of transactions and essentially taking a tax on sales in general.

and yes the graph is accurate in the shapes of the equations, it is only not accurate in the magnitudes of equations. Much like when you look at getting paid at a flat rate, it can look competitive with interest, but if the cycle goes on long enough, flat rate will always lose due to the nature of the relationship.

As far risk competition, etc. That is up to the skill of the flipper, they can make mistakes, but overall the equation is an exponential one, while they may have rises and falls, its more of a difference in rate of exponential growth. if lose 1% of my investment then make 3% of my investment, my total growth is still exponential, its just not going at the rate i would like it to. I am not saying its impossible to lose money flipping, but we arent talking about the bad flippers, we are talking about the people who are good at it. Prices are fairly stable on many of the items on the TP, a conservative flipper is almost guaranteed to make money if only due to price fluctuations throughout the day.

Also it is fairly accurate to say, those who have continued to flip have a vast deal more wealth than those who solely farm. because how much you can farm is always limited, it is a function of time/efficiency. How much you can make via tp flipping only has to do with the volume of goods being traded. IE the more capital you have the more you can make, even being super conservative.

Even when flipping is sucking, and your money is only making you 1% profit a day, if you have enough money to start with, you can make more money than a farmer does in 10 hours.
crazy farmer man gets 10 gold an hour for 10 hours he makes 100 gold a day.
flipper with 10000 gold can siphon 100 gold from the system even at the incredibly crappy profit of 1% in 24 hours.
now lets say the flipper can make 1% per 2 hours. in 10 hours he makes 400 gold. 1% is nothing in a system where many people are guaranteed to enter the market with no vested value in anything they are selling.

by the way, the flipper will never be able to buy everything on the TP, he is essentially a tax on TP. This means how much money he siphons will always be a portion of the transactions made via TP. you may say that itself is a limit, and that may be true, but it is a limit which is different on orders of magnitude than what a farmer can make.

mtpelion.4562:

That’s like asking why corn farmers are still wasting their time growing corn when they could be trading ethanol futures. The answer is that they like growing corn, they know growing corn, and they have no interest in not growing corn.

Some farmers may switch to trading, and some may add a trading portfolio to their earnings, but most farmers are going to continue to farm because they don’t have the desire or knowledge to get into the trading meta.

You’re comparing the real world of logistics to an MMO in which the middle man serves no function whatsoever. In the real world the corn grower is reliant on the middle man to get his goods to the public and the public is likewise reliant on the middle man to get the goods. It’s a symbiotic relationship. Flippers however are purely parasitic entities and I really don’t see why that should be rewarded over actually playing the game.

Surely ArenaNet didn’t intend for us all to huddle up in Lion’s Arch to progress?

Listen, the answer is simple. Lean on Evon Gnashblade and convince him to hire more Asura into executive management. If there is enough pressure he’ll relent and make it part of his platform. I’m certain when he sees the results of trained, rational thinking applied to economics and general business, he’ll continue the program. He wants to succeed and in order for him to succeed, everyone must succeed—by definition.

The discussion of economics is cursed here, as it is IRL, with one group talking about economics and one group talking about fairness. I’ve never really understood the fairness side as it always involves taking something away from someone, which doesn’t seem fair. But, alas…cursed.

Gehenna.3625:

Hell Avenger.7021:

In the real world, trading doesn’t cause inflation. What are you talking about? Printing money cause inflation, so does money multiplier effect.

I was specifically speaking about power trading, not normal trading. In real life this could happen as well…that’s why there are laws against cartels and such. When the sellers dictate the price they cost more than they are really worth, that’s inflation, because your money is worth less for such items.

Inflation does not occur when a specific product is moved outside your buying power. Inflation occurs when all prices in the entire economy move up in order to take advantage of an increase in buying power due to an increase in currency volume.

Fungalfoot.7213:

Surely ArenaNet didn’t intend for us all to huddle up in Lion’s Arch to progress?

Actually, ArenaNet intended that people who enjoy playing the market would be able to huddle up in Lion’s Arch to progress. That’s why they hired an actual economist to oversee the implementation and administration of the game’s economy. They could have very easily just made everything soulbound on pickup but chose not only to not do that, but to create the system by which profits can be generated through trading objects.

tolunart.2095:

TooBz.3065:

arabeth.2361:

Religious arguments aside, I can sympathize with the OP’s sentiment that it’s frustrating that the TP PvP minigame is actually the far and away most (potentially) profitable way to play GW2.

I don’t know how to fix that, or even change it. But it is frustrating.

One way would be to limit the number of trades per day or per hour. Most profits are relatively small. The amount that flippers could earn would be much smaller. No more posting 10,000 of this or that.

Then the TP becomes flooded (even more than it is now) with items people want to get rid of and can’t sell because everyone else is trying to get rid of them too.

The only reason for people to invest in the market is big ticket items like precursors and the only reason to sell them is to set the prices much much higher to make maximum profit from each sale, since you can only do a handful of trades per day.

Players who play for long periods of time are punished because they cannot put up all the useless loot they gather during the day and have to either fill up their bank with stuff they don’t want or vendor it for pennies.

Less sales happening each day, while people continue to pull items and coin out of thin air by playing the game accelerates inflation. Piles of things no one wants accumulate while people cannot sell them because of TP limits. The things they DO want rocket up in price because their sale is controlled by market investors who feel the need to make a maximum profit from each sale.

There’s a reason why the TP is run by a professional. If I have a medical problem, I’d rather talk to a doctor than someone who thinks he knows a little about medicine. In the same spirit, I trust the opinions of an experienced professional over someone who doesn’t like the idea of people making money on the TP.

I’m not advocating the restriction, I’m just answering the question. I have to think that if people were limited to trading 500 items per day, anyone playing the game normally would have more than enough room to sell everything they acquire.

Fungalfoot.7213:

mtpelion.4562:

That’s like asking why corn farmers are still wasting their time growing corn when they could be trading ethanol futures. The answer is that they like growing corn, they know growing corn, and they have no interest in not growing corn.

Some farmers may switch to trading, and some may add a trading portfolio to their earnings, but most farmers are going to continue to farm because they don’t have the desire or knowledge to get into the trading meta.

You’re comparing the real world of logistics to an MMO in which the middle man serves no function whatsoever. In the real world the corn grower is reliant on the middle man to get his goods to the public and the public is likewise reliant on the middle man to get the goods. It’s a symbiotic relationship. Flippers however are purely parasitic entities and I really don’t see why that should be rewarded over actually playing the game.

Surely ArenaNet didn’t intend for us all to huddle up in Lion’s Arch to progress?

haha parasitic entities. Got a sour taste in your mouth eh? I wont even bother arguing your points. You need to sit in a corner and have a time out before you can start making assumptions and insult people.

1) “Flippers hurt the market and people because they buy things for less than they are worth.”
Wrong. Everything is worth what someone else is willing to pay for it. If you are selling for less than that you either wanted to sell your item really fast (maybe because you needed the gold right away, or you figured the price would drop even more for some reason), or you didn’t look at the going price, which is your own fault.

Note that the argument “well, the flipper bought that item for cheap, and if he didn’t exist I could have had it for that low price” is… awkward.

2) “Flippers hurt the market and people because they sell things for more than they are worth.”
Again, the demand drives the price. If the flipper charges too much for it the listing will be underbid and he’ll be stuck with the item, or he’ll eat a 5% loss for relisting, both of which are deadly to flippers.

3) Prices are going up all the time.
I’m a crafter and very familiar with the prices of about a dozen or 2 T6 items. I craft maybe 3 to 5 items, all using T6 mats and lodes, and I’m actually amazed how stable the prices have been for months on end now. They do fluctuate quite a bit, from a (really very) low X to a high of X*2, even 2.5, but a) the price of the crafted items always moves with this and stuff still sells, and b) these price spikes never last more than 2 weeks to maybe a month, settling in at around X*1.2 to X*1.5.

4) Stuff is too expensive for me.
Well, that might be, though I’d add “right now”. Even if you say you play so little, you’ll never earn enough gold or mats to be able to afford exotics (due to inflation), most things in GW2 earn you karma, which you can eventually use to buy exotics as the karma price for them isn’t going up.

5) But I want it now for whatever I’m willing/able to pay for it.
Yea, well…

As an aside, mind you, I differentiate between flippers (buy and sell immediately, basically playing within the market) and people trying to corner a market (buy ALL THE THINGS, then sell slowly, which is distorting the market). The first group is playing their own little mini game. I’m pretty sure Jon addressed the later group, that they are keeping an eye out for behavior like that and how the size of the market and the game population makes this nearly impossible.

All these people still mixing monopoly/cornering & flipping.

You don’t freaking set the price when you flip!

/facepalm

I didn’t bother reading the long entirety of this thread, but I will say it made me laugh. HOW DARE I MAKE SO MUCH VIRTUAL MONEY.

Fungalfoot.7213:

Hell Avenger.7021:

Assuming we are raising the price. Actual effect is we are lowering the price. You don’t understand what market maker do, how can I even explain it to you beside give you a course on Finance and investment?

Please do explain to me how you are lowering prices by buying up all the cheap goods from the trading post and marking them up.

it is explained many times in previous posts. go read them

SupahSpankeh.8452:

The greater the gap between the in-game poor and rich, the more money ANet will make from gems-to-gold transactions.

Ergo, nothing will be done. Move along.

I am not so sure this is true. You have to ask…is an unhappy player more or less likely to spend real money on gems?

I can tell from my own experience that I have spent zero real money on gems since all the farming nerfs. I was more than willing to supplement my farming with real money, but I am not willing replace it.

Hell Avenger.7021:

Fungalfoot.7213:

Hell Avenger.7021:

Assuming we are raising the price. Actual effect is we are lowering the price. You don’t understand what market maker do, how can I even explain it to you beside give you a course on Finance and investment?

Please do explain to me how you are lowering prices by buying up all the cheap goods from the trading post and marking them up.

it is explained many times in previous posts. go read them

No it wasn’t.

IMO, flippers just reduce the spread between the bid and ask price. This both increases the price of the good and decreases the price of the good. (Probably be about an equal amount.) At best it’s a neutral action.

In fact, I haven’t seen a single explanation from you or anyone else about how it benefits the economy (except for the extra 15% gold sink due to the extra sale.)

Balkanwarrior.5132:

haha parasitic entities. Got a sour taste in your mouth eh? I wont even bother arguing your points. You need to sit in a corner and have a time out before you can start making assumptions and insult people.

I hate to break it to you but you’re really not adding anything of value by buying low and selling high and it’s not some kind of rocket science. We’ve all flipped at some point but I think it’s exceedingly silly to attempt to make it into something noble and useful. It’s not. It’s the easiest way of making gold available and that’s exactly why we do it. Why deny this simple truth?

this is becoming basically an argument of “financial and economic – literates” vs “non literates (ethics, fair and all that excuses)”

So many of the against “flipping arguments” are wrong. I will be honest, investment is my real world specialty.

Sil.4560:

I didn’t bother reading the long entirety of this thread, but I will say it made me laugh. HOW DARE I MAKE SO MUCH VIRTUAL MONEY.

That’s not the point. No one is saying TP traders shouldn’t make money, even lots of it.

But Anet, and I assume Mr. Smith has a lot of influence on the subject, have done everything in their power to take gold out of the hands of the farmers and place in it in the hands of TP traders…directly or indirectly, it doesn’t really matter.

Even CoF p1 has it’s days numbered, leaving TP trading the only way to make gold. I say “only” because after the next patch, nothing will even remotely come close to what TP traders are going to make.

Hell Avenger.7021:

this is becoming basically an argument of “financial and economikittenerates” vs “non literates (ethics, fair and all that excuses)”

So many of the against “flipping arguments” are wrong. I will be honest, investment is my real world specialty.

You mean between people genuinely concerned about the future of the game and self-aggrandizing flippers blinded by their selfish greed?

phys.7689:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

stuff

more stuff

I don’t think you quite understand what exponential means. Please look up the Wheat and Chessboard problem on wikipedia, and you will understand why your exponential model cannot possibly be true. Again, in a truly exponential model, the very first person to invest would have enough money by now to purchase every item in the game. The amount of money a flipper can make has structural limits.

Hell Avenger.7021:

this is becoming basically an argument of “financial and economikittenerates” vs “non literates (ethics, fair and all that excuses)”

So many of the against “flipping arguments” are wrong. I will be honest, investment is my real world specialty.

Well then…I am sure you are not biased at all! LMFAO….anyways…you entirely missed the point of this thread.

Fenrir.3609:

So you expect a zero risk venture which has little to zero player competition and which every player can do in a short frame of time, to have the same returns ceiling as a high risk venture which takes a large capital base to achieve and puts you in direct competition with other players?

As I mentioned before, general loot rewards could certainly do with being updated (and ANET seems to be in the process of that given the upcoming patch). But trying to “nerf” flipping seems utterly unwarranted.

I disagree.

http://www.gw2spidy.com/ and half a brain turns your “high risk venture” into a “Very Low Risk Venture”. I would go as far to say that you have a better chance of losing more money in a bad dungeon group that wipes a lot.

The reason people were farming was to get gold/materials. And materials are just gold anyway. Why bother trying to find somewhere else to exploit/farm and risk getting it nerfed or in trouble, when you can sit in Lion’s arch and abuse the TP.

Not all will transition to the TP, but with enough nerfs to the farming spots, the TP is going to become the center of attention and the go-to spot for making gold.

Fungalfoot.7213:

Balkanwarrior.5132:

haha parasitic entities. Got a sour taste in your mouth eh? I wont even bother arguing your points. You need to sit in a corner and have a time out before you can start making assumptions and insult people.

I hate to break it to you but you’re really not adding anything of value by buying low and selling high and it’s not some kind of rocket science. We’ve all flipped at some point but I think it’s exceedingly silly to attempt to make it into something noble and useful. It’s not. It’s the easiest way of making gold available and that’s exactly why we do it. Why deny this simple truth?

You lack the basic understanding of flipping. All those website explaining buying low and selling high is Bullkittenting. It is buying at low price, and selling at normal. You price high, you get undercut.

Fungalfoot.7213:

Hell Avenger.7021:

this is becoming basically an argument of “financial and economikittenerates” vs “non literates (ethics, fair and all that excuses)”

So many of the against “flipping arguments” are wrong. I will be honest, investment is my real world specialty.

You mean between people genuinely concerned about the future of the game and self-aggrandizing flippers blinded by their selfish greed?

Every action you perform in the real world and in Guild Wars is selfish. Every action YOU perform is by your own volition, meaning YOU WANT to perform that action. If you WANT it, it’s selfish. Think about what you’re saying.

EgonVenkman.1907:

Fenrir.3609:

So you expect a zero risk venture which has little to zero player competition and which every player can do in a short frame of time, to have the same returns ceiling as a high risk venture which takes a large capital base to achieve and puts you in direct competition with other players?

As I mentioned before, general loot rewards could certainly do with being updated (and ANET seems to be in the process of that given the upcoming patch). But trying to “nerf” flipping seems utterly unwarranted.

I disagree.

http://www.gw2spidy.com/ and half a brain turns your “high risk venture” into a “Very Low Risk Venture”. I would go as far to say that you have a better chance of losing more money in a bad dungeon group that wipes a lot.

The reason people were farming was to get gold/materials. And materials are just gold anyway. Why bother trying to find somewhere else to exploit/farm and risk getting it nerfed or in trouble, when you can sit in Lion’s arch and abuse the TP.

Not all will transition to the TP, but with enough nerfs to the farming spots, the TP is going to become the center of attention and the go-to spot for making gold.

If plenty of people do it, it turns into high risk business, because you are competing with everyone.

Hell Avenger.7021:

this is becoming basically an argument of “financial and economikittenerates” vs “non literates (ethics, fair and all that excuses)”

So many of the against “flipping arguments” are wrong. I will be honest, investment is my real world specialty.

Yes, I am not an investment expert. But I don’t think I’ve made a single ethics based argument, although I have discussed how different actions affect different parts of the community. I also do not appreciate being call non-literate.

What I am trying to have is an actual discussion about the trading post, it’s good points, and it’s bad points. Do you actual think anything we say here will be implemented or even considered? Please. This discussion is only for our own amusement.

This is a prime opportunity for you to educate the “non-literates.” I will be honest, I don’t think you know what you are talking about.

TooBz.3065:

Hell Avenger.7021:

this is becoming basically an argument of “financial and economikittenerates” vs “non literates (ethics, fair and all that excuses)”

So many of the against “flipping arguments” are wrong. I will be honest, investment is my real world specialty.

Yes, I am not an investment expert. But I don’t think I’ve made a single ethics based argument, although I have discussed how different actions affect different parts of the community. I also do not appreciate being call non-literate.

What I am trying to have is an actual discussion about the trading post, it’s good points, and it’s bad points. Do you actual think anything we say here will be implemented or even considered? Please. This discussion is only for our own amusement.

This is a prime opportunity for you to educate the “non-literates.” I will be honest, I don’t think you know what you are talking about.

Of course many wouldn’t understand what I am saying, but it does not make it wrong. If we just blindly throwing wrench into things, you will not fix anything but break many other.

TooBz.3065:

I’m not advocating the restriction, I’m just answering the question. I have to think that if people were limited to trading 500 items per day, anyone playing the game normally would have more than enough room to sell everything they acquire.

And their most active players, including a lot of “farmers” would be stuck with too many items to trade, and have to stuff their bank, guild bank, alts with everything they can’t sell, or vendor it and lose money and therefore the motivation to play.

This is bad.

Remember, the TP was set up this way, it didn’t just happen. They could have made a separate TP for each server, making each game world a closed system unless you paid a huge fee to change servers. Because every server is a river that feeds into the same ocean, certain things are possible and other things are not possible to do within the game.

Whether or not an individual likes the way the TP works, it cannot be denied that Anet – and the man they hired to run it – wants it to work this way.

Fenrir.3609:

EgonVenkman.1907:

While my own feelings are split, something should be done to pull the TP profit mongering down to match other areas of the game.

Anet has pretty much an anti-farm stance. While they can be slow to update things, they have continuously been making changes to locations where players are farming. Dungeon update, recent Arah farm spot change, etc..

To leave an area of the game completely uncapped, unregulated, etc. would not be good for the overall game. In short, it tells players, that in order to make gold, play the TP.

You and many others simply seem to be caught up in the suggestions for a fix, rather than acknowledging that a fix is needed. Whether it comes in the form of additional/increased fees, limits, or even a time limit on postings is irrelevant.

So you expect a zero risk venture which has little to zero player competition and which every player can do in a short frame of time, to have the same returns ceiling as a high risk venture which takes a large capital base to achieve and puts you in direct competition with other players?

As I mentioned before, general loot rewards could certainly do with being updated (and ANET seems to be in the process of that given the upcoming patch). But trying to “nerf” flipping seems utterly unwarranted.

you essentially said you think that rich people should make more money because they have more money “which takes a large capital base to achieve”

flipping is only as “high risk” as the user chooses to make it. you can make money of hourly price fluctuations that are fairly well documented and dont vary well day to day. the more money you have, the less risk you have to take, and the more likely you can ride out any aberrant spikes in prices.

you are not really arguing the OPs point though, you acknowledge the TP is more profitable than any other activity in the game when done well. Which means you accept that those that play the TP will over time acrue at best geometrically more money than others, and at worst exponentially more money than others.

the end result is, any item that costs money and is highly valued, will have its price determined by the TP rich. This limits the game because it means anet has to limit the amount of tradeable highly desired items or else they people will feel disatisfied with the game. There is a reason why ascended wasnt craftable, and why the ones in the future will be time gated and linked to account bound items. And thats because gold aquisition is not very balanced, and the vast majority of players have no where near enough gold to compete in the market with richer people in the game

tolunart.2095:

TooBz.3065:

I’m not advocating the restriction, I’m just answering the question. I have to think that if people were limited to trading 500 items per day, anyone playing the game normally would have more than enough room to sell everything they acquire.

And their most active players, including a lot of “farmers” would be stuck with too many items to trade, and have to stuff their bank, guild bank, alts with everything they can’t sell, or vendor it and lose money and therefore the motivation to play.

This is bad.

Remember, the TP was set up this way, it didn’t just happen. They could have made a separate TP for each server, making each game world a closed system unless you paid a huge fee to change servers. Because every server is a river that feeds into the same ocean, certain things are possible and other things are not possible to do within the game.

Whether or not an individual likes the way the TP works, it cannot be denied that Anet – and the man they hired to run it – wants it to work this way.

I love the fact that all servers are in one pot. That will decrease the chance of monopoly by a significant factor. I see this TP as experiment too, you can observe a lot of human behavior in this market which is true in the real world. Behavioral finance is a very interesting topics mind you.

Hell Avenger.7021:

EgonVenkman.1907:

Fenrir.3609:

So you expect a zero risk venture which has little to zero player competition and which every player can do in a short frame of time, to have the same returns ceiling as a high risk venture which takes a large capital base to achieve and puts you in direct competition with other players?

As I mentioned before, general loot rewards could certainly do with being updated (and ANET seems to be in the process of that given the upcoming patch). But trying to “nerf” flipping seems utterly unwarranted.

I disagree.

http://www.gw2spidy.com/ and half a brain turns your “high risk venture” into a “Very Low Risk Venture”. I would go as far to say that you have a better chance of losing more money in a bad dungeon group that wipes a lot.

The reason people were farming was to get gold/materials. And materials are just gold anyway. Why bother trying to find somewhere else to exploit/farm and risk getting it nerfed or in trouble, when you can sit in Lion’s arch and abuse the TP.

Not all will transition to the TP, but with enough nerfs to the farming spots, the TP is going to become the center of attention and the go-to spot for making gold.

If plenty of people do it, it turns into high risk business, because you are competing with everyone.

Indeed.

Furthermore I fail to see how someone could kitten up a dungeon run or open world farming enough for it to cost anywhere near the listing costs/risk associated with top level flipping.

You take on more risk, you need a larger capital base and you are in direct competition with other players. The more players involved in the activity, the harder it becomes. It is no surprise the ceiling for returns could and should be higher for such activities.

Solution is simple:

Limit postings to specific duration. You pay 5% to post, if it hasn’t sold in 2 days your post is removed, the item returned to you, and you lose the 5% fee. The duration in this example is arbitrary (could be 2 days, 3 days, 5 days, whatever).

There’s a good reason this is in effect in other games.

You’ll see TP prices drop for items — especially high end items like legendaries and precursors which can cost 20 to 60 gold just to post.

SynfulChaot.3169:

We are limited in profit we can make from all other sources in the game. Why should the TP be immune from the limitations ANet has been quite free with applying to all other money-making methods?

I just had to respond to this fallacy. There is nothing that limits the amount of profit you can make from other sources in the game. ArenaNet has not set a magic number and said that you can earn this much and no more by playing the game.

Any limit you might be hitting (if indeed you are hitting one) is that there is a limit on how much wealth can be farmed out of a small areas of the game over a short period of time. But that is just like the real world. How many apples can you pick from a single tree (or from the whole orchard) before you have picked all the apples that are available. Move on to the next tree.

So the only real limit to making money in the game (or in real life for that matter) is your ingenuity and dedication to pursue your quest for profit.

Fenrir.3609:

Hell Avenger.7021:

EgonVenkman.1907:

Fenrir.3609:

So you expect a zero risk venture which has little to zero player competition and which every player can do in a short frame of time, to have the same returns ceiling as a high risk venture which takes a large capital base to achieve and puts you in direct competition with other players?

As I mentioned before, general loot rewards could certainly do with being updated (and ANET seems to be in the process of that given the upcoming patch). But trying to “nerf” flipping seems utterly unwarranted.

I disagree.

http://www.gw2spidy.com/ and half a brain turns your “high risk venture” into a “Very Low Risk Venture”. I would go as far to say that you have a better chance of losing more money in a bad dungeon group that wipes a lot.

The reason people were farming was to get gold/materials. And materials are just gold anyway. Why bother trying to find somewhere else to exploit/farm and risk getting it nerfed or in trouble, when you can sit in Lion’s arch and abuse the TP.

Not all will transition to the TP, but with enough nerfs to the farming spots, the TP is going to become the center of attention and the go-to spot for making gold.

If plenty of people do it, it turns into high risk business, because you are competing with everyone.

Indeed.

Furthermore I fail to see how someone could kitten up a dungeon run or open world farming enough for it to cost anywhere near the listing costs/risk associated with top level flipping.

You take on more risk, you need a larger capital base and you are in direct competition with other players. The more players involved in the activity, the harder it becomes. It is no surprise the ceiling for returns could and should be higher for such activities.

Exactly, higher risk/higher return. I could easily lose over 2 gold in a minute if I dont things incorrectly. They lose a repair cost of few silver.

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Every action you perform in the real world and in Guild Wars is selfish. Every action YOU perform is by your own volition, meaning YOU WANT to perform that action. If you WANT it, it’s selfish. Think about what you’re saying.

The mental gymnastics you folks will employ to justify flipping will never cease to amaze me. Truly.

Come on, we all know that the profit comes at the expense of somebody else. I don’t really have a problem with flipping itself as it’s one of the last ways of actually making money in this game but I do have a problem with flippers trying to pretend they’re doing something useful here. When you flip you do it for one reason and one reason alone and that is to make a load of gold for yourself. And hey, I don’t have a problem with that as I’ve often resorted to the very same methods when I’ve been in a tight spot.

My problem is that this is a fundamentally broken and unfun system. The most efficient way to progress shouldn’t be sitting in Lion’s Arch and playing the trading post. That is the crux of the issue and that is what needs to be rectified. It’s a far greater issue than farming.

tolunart.2095:

TooBz.3065:

I’m not advocating the restriction, I’m just answering the question. I have to think that if people were limited to trading 500 items per day, anyone playing the game normally would have more than enough room to sell everything they acquire.

And their most active players, including a lot of “farmers” would be stuck with too many items to trade, and have to stuff their bank, guild bank, alts with everything they can’t sell, or vendor it and lose money and therefore the motivation to play.

This is bad.

Remember, the TP was set up this way, it didn’t just happen. They could have made a separate TP for each server, making each game world a closed system unless you paid a huge fee to change servers. Because every server is a river that feeds into the same ocean, certain things are possible and other things are not possible to do within the game.

Whether or not an individual likes the way the TP works, it cannot be denied that Anet – and the man they hired to run it – wants it to work this way.

The point is that there is a theoretical number of trades (I don’t know the number) that would allow normal players to sell all the goods they acquire but would restrict the ability of other players to make a fortune flipping.

From that basis, we can discuss whether this is a good idea or a terrible one (I honestly don’t know). But I don’t want to nitpick over the number because we’re not implementing anything.

Regarding how ANet wants things to be. We haven’t seen the trumpeting about the great economy we got when the game launched. In fact they have been silent on this regard. I think the economy is stable, that doesn’t mean its optimal.

Fungalfoot.7213:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Every action you perform in the real world and in Guild Wars is selfish. Every action YOU perform is by your own volition, meaning YOU WANT to perform that action. If you WANT it, it’s selfish. Think about what you’re saying.

The mental gymnastics you folks will employ to justify flipping will never cease to amaze me. Truly.

Come on, we all know that the profit comes at the expense of somebody else. I don’t really have a problem with flipping itself as it’s one of the last ways of actually making money in this game but I do have a problem with flippers trying to pretend they’re doing something useful here. When you flip you do it for one reason and one reason alone and that is to make a load of gold for yourself. And hey, I don’t have a problem with that as I’ve often resorted to the very same methods when I’ve been in a tight spot.

My problem is that this is a fundamentally broken and unfun system. The most efficient way to progress shouldn’t be sitting in Lion’s Arch and playing the trading post. That is the crux of the issue and that is what needs to be rectified. It’s a far greater issue than farming.

It doesnt come at the expense of anyone. “We all know.” LOL. You are assuming trader charge exuberantly high prices. (Which we will be undercut to death)

LyricDawnhagen.7803:

SynfulChaot.3169:

We are limited in profit we can make from all other sources in the game. Why should the TP be immune from the limitations ANet has been quite free with applying to all other money-making methods?

I just had to respond to this fallacy. There is nothing that limits the amount of profit you can make from other sources in the game. ArenaNet has not set a magic number and said that you can earn this much and no more by playing the game.

Any limit you might be hitting (if indeed you are hitting one) is that there is a limit on how much wealth can be farmed out of a small areas of the game over a short period of time. But that is just like the real world. How many apples can you pick from a single tree (or from the whole orchard) before you have picked all the apples that are available. Move on to the next tree.

So the only real limit to making money in the game (or in real life for that matter) is your ingenuity and dedication to pursue your quest for profit.

Have you even played GW2 lately? I mean in the last few months? I would have to assume you haven’t or dedicate you time to standing in L.A. in front of the TP.

Hell Avenger.7021:

Fungalfoot.7213:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Every action you perform in the real world and in Guild Wars is selfish. Every action YOU perform is by your own volition, meaning YOU WANT to perform that action. If you WANT it, it’s selfish. Think about what you’re saying.

The mental gymnastics you folks will employ to justify flipping will never cease to amaze me. Truly.

Come on, we all know that the profit comes at the expense of somebody else. I don’t really have a problem with flipping itself as it’s one of the last ways of actually making money in this game but I do have a problem with flippers trying to pretend they’re doing something useful here. When you flip you do it for one reason and one reason alone and that is to make a load of gold for yourself. And hey, I don’t have a problem with that as I’ve often resorted to the very same methods when I’ve been in a tight spot.

My problem is that this is a fundamentally broken and unfun system. The most efficient way to progress shouldn’t be sitting in Lion’s Arch and playing the trading post. That is the crux of the issue and that is what needs to be rectified. It’s a far greater issue than farming.

It doesnt come at the expense of anyone. “We all know.” LOL. You are assuming trader charge exuberantly high prices. (Which we will be undercut to death)

No such assumption is necessary. The TP generates no gold. Therefore, if you walk away with some you get it from someone else.

Here, I contend that it comes at the expense of the patient. You reduce the amount people who place buy and sell orders can benefit. It favors the impatient because they get a better deal. And you pocket a portion for yourself.

Fungalfoot.7213:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Every action you perform in the real world and in Guild Wars is selfish. Every action YOU perform is by your own volition, meaning YOU WANT to perform that action. If you WANT it, it’s selfish. Think about what you’re saying.

The mental gymnastics you folks will employ to justify flipping will never cease to amaze me. Truly.

Come on, we all know that the profit comes at the expense of somebody else. I don’t really have a problem with flipping itself as it’s one of the last ways of actually making money in this game but I do have a problem with flippers trying to pretend they’re doing something useful here. When you flip you do it for one reason and one reason alone and that is to make a load of gold for yourself. And hey, I don’t have a problem with that as I’ve often resorted to the very same methods when I’ve been in a tight spot.

My problem is that this is a fundamentally broken and unfun system. The most efficient way to progress shouldn’t be sitting in Lion’s Arch and playing the trading post. That is the crux of the issue and that is what needs to be rectified. It’s a far greater issue than farming.

At whose expense does the profit come? The seller listed the item and got exactly what he asked for it. The buyer purchased the item and paid exactly what he was willing to spend.

Seems to me like everyone got exactly what they wanted out of the transaction, including the flipper.

Fungalfoot.7213:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Every action you perform in the real world and in Guild Wars is selfish. Every action YOU perform is by your own volition, meaning YOU WANT to perform that action. If you WANT it, it’s selfish. Think about what you’re saying.

The mental gymnastics you folks will employ to justify flipping will never cease to amaze me. Truly.

Come on, we all know that the profit comes at the expense of somebody else. I don’t really have a problem with flipping itself as it’s one of the last ways of actually making money in this game but I do have a problem with flippers trying to pretend they’re doing something useful here. When you flip you do it for one reason and one reason alone and that is to make a load of gold for yourself. And hey, I don’t have a problem with that as I’ve often resorted to the very same methods when I’ve been in a tight spot.

My problem is that this is a fundamentally broken and unfun system. The most efficient way to progress shouldn’t be sitting in Lion’s Arch and playing the trading post. That is the crux of the issue and that is what needs to be rectified. It’s a far greater issue than farming.

Profit does not come at the expense of anyone else, unless it is taken by force. By the way, it may be unfun for you, but don’t place your subjective interpretations of that word above everyone else’s.

EgonVenkman.1907:

The reason people were farming was to get gold/materials. And materials are just gold anyway. Why bother trying to find somewhere else to exploit/farm and risk getting it nerfed or in trouble, when you can sit in Lion’s arch and abuse the TP.

Not all will transition to the TP, but with enough nerfs to the farming spots, the TP is going to become the center of attention and the go-to spot for making gold.

Items are not just flipped from one seller to another – eventually they are consumed, or you end up with the situation the housing market was in a few years ago. Once the items are flipped above what consumers can or will pay, they will not sell, and the market crashes.

If everyone is selling and no one is producing things to sell, eventually the affordable supply is consumed and the rest is either sold at a loss or sits there unsold. But when prices go up enough, it motivates more people to go out into the world and collect new items to sell, increasing supply and driving prices down until they stop farming. And the cycle begins again.

mtpelion.4562:

Fungalfoot.7213:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Every action you perform in the real world and in Guild Wars is selfish. Every action YOU perform is by your own volition, meaning YOU WANT to perform that action. If you WANT it, it’s selfish. Think about what you’re saying.

The mental gymnastics you folks will employ to justify flipping will never cease to amaze me. Truly.

Come on, we all know that the profit comes at the expense of somebody else. I don’t really have a problem with flipping itself as it’s one of the last ways of actually making money in this game but I do have a problem with flippers trying to pretend they’re doing something useful here. When you flip you do it for one reason and one reason alone and that is to make a load of gold for yourself. And hey, I don’t have a problem with that as I’ve often resorted to the very same methods when I’ve been in a tight spot.

My problem is that this is a fundamentally broken and unfun system. The most efficient way to progress shouldn’t be sitting in Lion’s Arch and playing the trading post. That is the crux of the issue and that is what needs to be rectified. It’s a far greater issue than farming.

At whose expense does the profit come? The seller listed the item and got exactly what he asked for it. The buyer purchased the item and paid exactly what he was willing to spend.

Seems to me like everyone got exactly what they wanted out of the transaction, including the flipper.

Not true in this closed system. There are no viable alternative outlets for goods. People can’t make side deals (too much scamming and corruption) and the vendor price is ridiculous. I think it’s more reasonable to say, the seller sold for the price he could get and the buyer bought for the price he had to pay.

OK buddy look, I WILL EXPLAIN with a simple example to make you understand why trading cause no detriment to anyone. It is price discovery in practice.

Assume a normal market of Good A:

Assuming TP fee is 10% for simplicity.
Assume there are constant demand for this good.

Current Ask (listing) Price is $10/unit.
Current Bid Price is $ 5/Unit.

You the trader see this opportunity, and you buy at $5.01. You resale the item at $9.99. You effectively lowered the price for the good for everyone. NOW, if enough traders come in and do the same tactic. They will buy at $5.02, and resale the item at $9.98. KEEP ON GOING.

Eventually, they will reach an equilibrium price. The TRUE Value (taking into account of the fees) of the item. WAIT A MINUTE, did the price just increase for Bid price? Yes, it did, and it should. WHY you ask? The bid price was too low, people gave a lowball bid price (happen very often when you buy a house), that is a price that the guy can make an arbitrage profit. However, at the equilibrium price there is no arbitrage profit.

The thing you are complaining about (drumroll): NOT ENOUGH TRADERS, thus there are profit!

TooBz.3065:

Not true in this closed system. There are no viable alternative outlets for goods. People can’t make side deals (too much scamming and corruption) and the vendor price is ridiculous. I think it’s more reasonable to say, the seller sold for the price he could get and the buyer bought for the price he had to pay.

The seller paid a price for getting his money now in the form of taking a lower amount than he could have.

The buyer paid a price for getting his product now in the form of a higher amount than he could have.

The profit the flipper makes is the price of convenience to the original seller and the final buyer. It comes at no one’s expense as they both chose to pay it for the convenience of a fast transaction.

TooBz.3065:

mtpelion.4562:

Fungalfoot.7213:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Every action you perform in the real world and in Guild Wars is selfish. Every action YOU perform is by your own volition, meaning YOU WANT to perform that action. If you WANT it, it’s selfish. Think about what you’re saying.

The mental gymnastics you folks will employ to justify flipping will never cease to amaze me. Truly.

Come on, we all know that the profit comes at the expense of somebody else. I don’t really have a problem with flipping itself as it’s one of the last ways of actually making money in this game but I do have a problem with flippers trying to pretend they’re doing something useful here. When you flip you do it for one reason and one reason alone and that is to make a load of gold for yourself. And hey, I don’t have a problem with that as I’ve often resorted to the very same methods when I’ve been in a tight spot.

My problem is that this is a fundamentally broken and unfun system. The most efficient way to progress shouldn’t be sitting in Lion’s Arch and playing the trading post. That is the crux of the issue and that is what needs to be rectified. It’s a far greater issue than farming.

At whose expense does the profit come? The seller listed the item and got exactly what he asked for it. The buyer purchased the item and paid exactly what he was willing to spend.

Seems to me like everyone got exactly what they wanted out of the transaction, including the flipper.

Not true in this closed system. There are no viable alternative outlets for goods. People can’t make side deals (too much scamming and corruption) and the vendor price is ridiculous. I think it’s more reasonable to say, the seller sold for the price he could get and the buyer bought for the price he had to pay.

Your definition of viable, your definition of ridiculous are less legitimate than the market definitions which reflect thousands of interactions among players. What’s more honest; YOUR belief at what prices should be or the sums of the beliefs of thousands of others?

I could just as easily say the seller sold for the price he had to sell and the buyer bought for the price he could get.