Guild Wars 2

Fenrir.3609:

Why do people keep referring to taking the spread as arbitrage? It is not that at all.

“You keep you using that word, I do think it means what you think it means…. "

Just another one of the many things on the forums it’s best to develop a blind spot to

Essence Snow.3194:

Ursan.7846:

Essence Snow.3194:

They both are means of players to ascertain disproportionate amounts of wealth over any other in game activities. Inflation (macro) is not the only problem the economy faces.

Inflation is a far more significant (an actual economic) problem then Joe not being able to afford dyes and skins Peter can.

Yes, because wealth disparity has never been a significant economic problem before.

When 2 million Joes cannot afford dyes and skins that 100 Peters can solely based on one activity, there is a problem. Micro spills over into macro.

Except it’s an activity anyone can participate in, it’s just that most aren’t good at it or are willing to put the time in to become good at it. Just like not everyone should manage their own stock portfolio especially if they aren’t willing to devote some amount of time to research and keep up those market segments.

If it was easy, everyone would do it and then nobody will be “rich”.

I am a casual player (~15-20 Hours/week). I don’t farm much, I’ve never done a dungeon. I like to clear areas, level characters, run events, do the odd stint of wvw, finish my dailies and play the TP.

I enjoy searching for markets that I can make money in by flipping items, just like you might enjoy farming cursed shore or running COF over and over I enjoy flipping. There are many things you can do in the game to get enjoyment and some of us enjoy the trading aspects.

I don’t think there is any empirical evidence to suggest flipping drives up prices anymore than some guy running COF over and over (and gaining lots of gold) would drive up prices. i.e. if you have more gold you are more willing to pay more for any given item. If flipping does drive up prices then so be it. There is nothing in this game that a player needs just a lot of things that a player wants. You don’t need any particular dye, armor, crafting material or weapon they are all wants. Therefore if the price is too high you either need to work harder or buy something else.

your money comes from other players so that alone drives up prices.
On th contrary there is no proof farming drives up prices.

They can add gold sinks for gold inflation but flippers just makes things more expensive.

Also as said many times NO farmer can get near the wealth of a flipper, that alone suggest a flipper drives up prices way more than ANY farmer.

LordByron.8369:

your money comes from other players so that alone drives up prices.
On th contrary there is no proof farming drives up prices.

They can add gold sinks for gold inflation but flippers just makes things more expensive.

Also as said many times NO farmer can get near the wealth of a flipper, that alone suggest a flipper drives up prices way more than ANY farmer.

Adding more gold to the economy causes inflation. Farming, running dungeons, doing events all add more gold to the economy causing inflation.

You are talking about farmers not being as wealthy as power flippers/traders but can your average farmer be as wealthy as your average trader/flipper? I don’t know…

As for prices going up because of flippers, prices are set at what people are willing to buy or sell something for, it’s a dynamic market. They might go up temporarily because of flipping but in the end they will find their equilibrium.

skrymir.1260:

LordByron.8369:

your money comes from other players so that alone drives up prices.
On th contrary there is no proof farming drives up prices.

They can add gold sinks for gold inflation but flippers just makes things more expensive.

Also as said many times NO farmer can get near the wealth of a flipper, that alone suggest a flipper drives up prices way more than ANY farmer.

Adding more gold to the economy causes inflation. Farming, running dungeons, doing events all add more gold to the economy causing inflation.

there are gold sinks for thakittens
a sad excuse for flipping trying to take the place of game mechanics.

You know what combat inflation?
soulbound
gems
wp
TP normal use
and many Others.

Flippers are just using the inflation as an excuse.

A flipper is not paying 15% taxes
A flipper make sellers and buyers play that taxes plus a surplus.

Flippers were responsible of destroying economy in most mmorpg.
So i know that they like repeating the same mantra just to find an excuse for their behavior but if you decide to flip, just know you deserve to be looked at as something damaging other players for personal EASY profit.

p.S. try to ask players with 3-4 legendaries how they get them….
When you enter a dungeon with them you have the answer….

Essence Snow.3194:

When 2 million Joes cannot afford dyes and skins that 100 Peters can solely based on one activity, there is a problem. Micro spills over into macro.

And that’s what people fail to see. Content, advertised as accessible to everyone (perhaps requiring a degree of player skill on the field or a form of progression) becomes more gated than the actual gated content itself.

What might help some of the issue is if ANet would get around to deleting all the buy orders placed on EVERY item asking for thousands of said item for 1c. It’s just ridiculous – no one will sell you a precursor for 1c, so don’t list a buy order for 3000 of them for 1c each. This creates the illusion of the item being worth far, far less than it is. A lot of the time people will create buy orders according to the current buy order – so many people place buy orders that will simply NEVER get fulfilled because nobody (even impatient people) sells for so low (in fact, you can’t, as you can’t sell for lower than vendor price). All this means is that people legitimately wanting to purchase something often make offers that are far below the item’s actual worth and occasionally get lucky. But essentially, what is happening is that buy orders all get started around a value that is completely artificial and not realistic, and it takes a long time to work its way up to the point where actually, buy orders offer more than the item’s worth.

What the flipper does is exploit this situation (yes, it’s an exploit, but to me it’s not unethical per se), but actually brings the offer prices up by a margin gradually, which is GOOD, and brings the asking prices down marginally, which is again good. Eventually, you see much more realistic prices and offers reflected in the market.

I’m not saying this isn’t open to abuse, but generally speaking, I do think the flippers serve to balance out this particular issue.

No, I don’t flip myself, so I’m not posting this out of any sense of bias. And no, I am not an expert in economics, so I may be completely wrong, but this is just my opinion.

If ANet removed these ridiculous and often impossible to fulfil buy orders, we may see buy orders that more accurately reflect players’ opinions about the “worth” of a particular item, which might help the issue a bit. This would remove the need for so many flippers (though it wouldn’t, of course, negate them entirely, but I don’t think we should), and would make it a less profitable venture for them.

However, flipping, as it stands is, to me, perfectly fine in this game.

LordByron.8369:

A flipper is not paying 15% taxes
A flipper make sellers and buyers play that taxes plus a surplus.

That’s just plain wrong.

Flipper puts in a bid at 10s. Impatient seller sells him the item and gets 10s – 15% so 8.5s. 1.5s is sunk.

Flipper turns around and sells for 15s. Impatient buyer buys it at 15s. Flipper gets 12.75s. 2.25s is sunk.

Flipper makes 2.75s in profit, Impatient seller gets 8.5s, Impatient buyer gets the item and John Smith the gold sink gets 3.75s. Of the three getting coin here from the 15s sale, the Flipper gets the least and that’s at a 50% markup.

Flipper isn’t forcing either the Impatient seller to sell at 10s or for the Impatient buyer to buy at 15s. He is also not preventing the seller from selling the item for less than 15 themselves or the buyer from putting in a bid greater than 10s. All that he is doing is turning other players impatience into profit for him.

I think that you believe flippers are buying items already up for sale and posting those at a higher price. That method is simply asking to lose money because you can not prevent other players from undercutting you and reestablishing the original price range.

CrossedHorse.4261:

What might help some of the issue is if ANet would get around to deleting all the buy orders placed on EVERY item asking for thousands of said item for 1c. It’s just ridiculous – no one will sell you a precursor for 1c, so don’t list a buy order for 3000 of them for 1c each. This creates the illusion of the item being worth far, far less than it is. A lot of the time people will create buy orders according to the current buy order – so many people place buy orders that will simply NEVER get fulfilled because nobody (even impatient people) sells for so low (in fact, you can’t, as you can’t sell for lower than vendor price). All this means is that people legitimately wanting to purchase something often make offers that are far below the item’s actual worth and occasionally get lucky. But essentially, what is happening is that buy orders all get started around a value that is completely artificial and not realistic, and it takes a long time to work its way up to the point where actually, buy orders offer more than the item’s worth.
.

Anet already addressed this, players cannot place buy/sell orders for less than the vendor price of an item. You can’t place a 1c buy order for a Legendary and you can’t fill one that already exists.

Those that are on the TP came from before they put this policy in place, or from bugs that Anet has no control over. They won’t remove them because it will take manpower away from fixing things that actually have an effect on the game.

They have no effect on the game because even if someone were to believe they could get a Legendary or precursor for 1c they cannot place the bid. In most cases no one will even see these buy orders because only the top dozen or so orders are easily seen.

The TP is easily the biggest gold sink in the game. Decreasing the potential to trade on the TP would decrease the money that flows out of the game significantly. The disparity between the Peters (the “haves”) and the Joes (the “haves-not”) will only become greater. Moreover, casual Joe will become very upset that he can’t buy the stuff that he used to, because it “suddenly all became so expensive!” People just starting the game, who don’t have any coin, will have difficulty catching up. As a result, word spreads the game is not for casuals, and new Joes won’t buy the game.

I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it now: the only way to limit TP profit is to disable the “buy order” button. Flippers live on the difference between the buy order and the sell order price. It’s really that simple.

A couple of problems with it though:
- You’d be killing off a large portion of the playerbase, namely, those that enjoy flipping items.
- Another major goldsink must be created to fill the void (because of reduced activity on the TP), and it’s very hard to create persistent gold sinks without major player opposition.
- Market manipulation: with no buy orders, you can more easily stealth sell a product at an insanely low price to tank a market very quickly.

The current uptrend in the market seems to stem from the crafting announcement.

If bots could fully flip items the spread on everything would be bid down to the 15% fee plus risk premium plus time premium. Spreads are higher when everyone has to do it manually since players want to actually get paid for their time.

I do find it surprising that spreads have remained consistently high in several markets; I guess there just aren’t enough people trying to flip some items to really compete the spreads down.

Buttercup.5871:

Moreover, casual Joe will become very upset that he can’t buy the stuff that he used to, because it “suddenly all became so expensive!” People just starting the game, who don’t have any coin, will have difficulty catching up.

This is true for limited availability items like the old Halloween skins, where there is no new supply. In those cases, you’d expect prices to keep increasing as the supply of unbound items continues to dwindle as players consume them.

It does not apply to any other item in the game. Even premium skins and legendaries have remained fairly stable in price for long stretches. New players are not at any disadvantage when it comes to acquiring a legendary compared to players who have been playing for some time – and any disadvantage they may have is a result in changes to drop rates, not to general price inflation.

Reisinger.4203:

If you’re going to get into semantics and completely disregard a field due to what you’ve seen in your own, (probably) poor-quality post-secondary institution, then why shouldn’t we disregard your views as well? Why bother replying at all as what you’ve said in this latest post has nothing to do with this thread?

A sociological view on this economy isn’t some sort of speculative, subjective professor-vomit. If so, a lot of the users that have posted on this thread must be very attentive during their sociology classes.

The point: it’s not a fringe “Occupy X” mentality to have a shared disapproval of concentrated capital in the market.

Sir, I critically wounded your position to near death without needing to point out that sociology is not a worthwhile academic pursuit so I removed my original comment. You added it back into the debate (my guess is so that you could turn a blind eye to your whimpering argument’s mortal wound).

Since you wish to continue down this road, I shall put your entire field of study into the same corner as your poorly-formed position:

The concept of infinite wealth does not derive from quantity of resources. Gold ore in the ground has no value. It is not until a person recovers it from the earth that value is added to the ore. All economic value is derived from work that adds value. As long as there are people, there is therefore infinite wealth because there is always some work that can be done that will add value. The expenditure of time/effort/skill is what creates wealth in the real world and that is infinite.

And you are correct, it is unfortunately not a fringe opinion that you share, it is a widely disbursed swath of nonsense that is dangled in front of the jealous masses by instigators, eager to profit in the aftermath of class warfare.

Good. Day.

I can’t believe people are still arguing over this.

Something the cof farmers need to know:

1) There will be more gold created because of more gold from a single path, and champion loot. If what they said is true, a single cof p1 path will give at least 1g, that means casual player (who don’t run p1 over and over) will gain more. And farmers can still farm different dungeons to get gold, combine with champ loot, so farming is not dead. And TP won’t become the only way to become rich.

2) No one complained about this until the coming “nerf” release.

3) I’ve said this. Flipper != monopoly. Flipper does NOT “set” the price of an item. Stop saying they markup the price and kitten like they make everyone pay more. You can buy every level 1 armor on the TP and put all them at 1g all you want, just no one will buy them.

4) Casual player benefit from flippers because casual players are the ones who buy and sell instantly. Flippers often overbid, and casual players can sell instantly at a higher price. Flippers also undercut, and casual players can buy instantly at a lower price.

5) Monopoly exist, but only a very small portion and requires tons of money. Don’t even try to attempt it if you have like 500g. Only the very rich have the gold to do but doesn’t mean they can success. Only that few can do what you say “markup” the price. So stop trying to mix it with normal flippers.

Fenrir.3609:

Why do people keep referring to taking the spread as arbitrage? It is not that at all.

The kind of trading we see on the AH is extremely basic, even the kind of rubbish day traders often use (totally spurious TA et al) is more complex than what is going on here.

There will be precious few running actual economic/arbitrage models (probably none at all).

Flippers are looking at a website and/or a basic spread sheet and simply trying to capture the spread. They are tying up capital, taking a risk in doing so, competeing against other players trying to achieve the same thing and they are providing liquidity to the market place whilst doing so. There is nothing at all wrong with that.

You sure it is just a few? I have noticed several other people just within the market I am dealing with. They very well could be using some external tools rather than spreadsheets that I have. Some people know exactly what is going on. A true sense of arbitrage cannot happen in this market, there is no short position. You would never end up with theoretical 0 risk.

Let’s face it, most hedge fund don’t even hedge. If you think the real world has true arbitrage, you are dreaming. You say carry trade might be a form of arbitrage? nah, it isn’t. currency risk is there.

Arbitrage exist in the academic realm, we try to get to that level but it is extremely difficult. Spread trading were used to employed by traders in the real world, btw. Not some avg joe in the basement, but on trading floor. However, most of that is computerized, HFT!

mtpelion.4562:

Reisinger.4203:

If you’re going to get into semantics and completely disregard a field due to what you’ve seen in your own, (probably) poor-quality post-secondary institution, then why shouldn’t we disregard your views as well? Why bother replying at all as what you’ve said in this latest post has nothing to do with this thread?

A sociological view on this economy isn’t some sort of speculative, subjective professor-vomit. If so, a lot of the users that have posted on this thread must be very attentive during their sociology classes.

The point: it’s not a fringe “Occupy X” mentality to have a shared disapproval of concentrated capital in the market.

Sir, I critically wounded your position to near death without needing to point out that sociology is not a worthwhile academic pursuit so I removed my original comment. You added it back into the debate (my guess is so that you could turn a blind eye to your whimpering argument’s mortal wound).

Since you wish to continue down this road, I shall put your entire field of study into the same corner as your poorly-formed position:

The concept of infinite wealth does not derive from quantity of resources. Gold ore in the ground has no value. It is not until a person recovers it from the earth that value is added to the ore. All economic value is derived from work that adds value. As long as there are people, there is therefore infinite wealth because there is always some work that can be done that will add value. The expenditure of time/effort/skill is what creates wealth in the real world and that is infinite.

And you are correct, it is unfortunately not a fringe opinion that you share, it is a widely disbursed swath of nonsense that is dangled in front of the jealous masses by instigators, eager to profit in the aftermath of class warfare.

Good. Day.

lol that is a good one. It is always easy to instigates class warfare. Look at communism, end of the day the guy with power confused the masses and used the masses to steal wealth from the old rich.

Ensign.2189:

If bots could fully flip items the spread on everything would be bid down to the 15% fee plus risk premium plus time premium. Spreads are higher when everyone has to do it manually since players want to actually get paid for their time.

I do find it surprising that spreads have remained consistently high in several markets; I guess there just aren’t enough people trying to flip some items to really compete the spreads down.

Either not enough, or deem not worth their time. LOl, I do know I have force few out of the market in the past. However, as profit grew they come back. Oh well, it is always to have pockets of superior profit once in a while.

OH look, I have 12 gold worth of things stuck in the market today. That is a risk I am taking.

Hell Avenger.7021:

You sure it is just a few? I have noticed several other people just within the market I am dealing with. They very well could be using some external tools rather than spreadsheets that I have. Some people know exactly what is going on. A true sense of arbitrage cannot happen in this market, there is no short position. You would never end up with theoretical 0 risk.

Let’s face it, most hedge fund don’t even hedge. If you think the real world has true arbitrage, you are dreaming. You say carry trade might be a form of arbitrage? nah, it isn’t. currency risk is there.

Arbitrage exist in the academic realm, we try to get to that level but it is extremely difficult. Spread trading were used to employed by traders in the real world, btw. Not some avg joe in the basement, but on trading floor. However, most of that is computerized, HFT!

“You sure it is just a few?”. What do you mean by that? I suggested that very few people in this game are running high order econometric and/or arbitrage models when playing the TP in this game. Do you disagree with that, if so, what kind of models do you suggest they are using exactly?

Plenty of people are no doubt using websites and associated “tools”, but I can’t see people running baskets of assets through MATLAB, using SMC, VECM models and the like as well as looking for cointegration.

As for the real world, well i’ve worked in the HFT arb and market making subset of the financial investment industry for several years now. There are multiple types of arbitrage (not all of it is risk free funnily enough) which have nothing at all to do with carry trades.

I am aware that the average Joe doesn’t use it. Tbh i’m not entirely sure what you are trying to tell me here. I explained that it is highly unlikely that people are going to be running full on econometric models and arb in this game and I also alluded to the fact that most retail practitioners in the real world run what is in effect, highly naive/spurious models at best anyway.

That’s all rather far off topic mind you, if you want to have a debate about it feel free to PM me.

Fenrir.3609:

Hell Avenger.7021:

You sure it is just a few? I have noticed several other people just within the market I am dealing with. They very well could be using some external tools rather than spreadsheets that I have. Some people know exactly what is going on. A true sense of arbitrage cannot happen in this market, there is no short position. You would never end up with theoretical 0 risk.

Let’s face it, most hedge fund don’t even hedge. If you think the real world has true arbitrage, you are dreaming. You say carry trade might be a form of arbitrage? nah, it isn’t. currency risk is there.

Arbitrage exist in the academic realm, we try to get to that level but it is extremely difficult. Spread trading were used to employed by traders in the real world, btw. Not some avg joe in the basement, but on trading floor. However, most of that is computerized, HFT!

“You sure it is just a few?”. What do you mean by that? I suggested that very few people in this game are running high order econometric and/or arbitrage models when playing the TP in this game. Do you disagree with that, if so, what kind of models do you suggest they are using exactly?

Plenty of people are no doubt using websites and associated “tools”, but I can’t see people running baskets of assets through MATLAB, using SMC, VECM models and the like as well as looking for cointegration.

As for the real world, well i’ve worked in the HFT arb and market making subset of the financial investment industry for several years now. There are multiple types of arbitrage (not all of it is risk free funnily enough) which have nothing at all to do with carry trades.

I am aware that the average Joe doesn’t use it. Tbh i’m not entirely sure what you are trying to tell me here. I explained that it is highly unlikely that people are going to be running full on econometric models and arb in this game and I also alluded to the fact that most retail practitioners in the real world run what is in effect, highly naive/spurious models at best anyway.

That’s all rather far off topic mind you, if you want to have a debate about it feel free to PM me.

I mean there are few people running a bit more complicated model than 3rd party providers, but you cannot get complex in this simple market at all.

MatLab, that is very interesting. Isn’t that an academic stats tool? I didn’t know it is employ on a commercial basis. I have used it before. I don’t work in programming HFT, because I am not programmer by trade. I work in the investment industry, dealing with mutual fund and hedge fund. Your model and my model will differ dramatically. Your model is heavily quant and data mining, and my model will include more qualitative.

My GW2 model? A freaking joke, but made me 600 gold in a month and half of simple trade.

P.S. Speaking of which I would like to learn more about SMC? what is that. I have an inklin notion of what VECM is. That is very stats focused stuff huh.

Hell Avenger.7021:

I mean there are few people running a bit more complicated model than 3rd party providers, but you cannot get complex in this simple market at all.

I agree.

MatLab, that is very interesting. Isn’t that an academic stats tool? I didn’t know it is employ on a commercial basis. I have used it before. I don’t work in programming HFT, because I am not programmer by trade. I work in the investment industry, dealing with mutual fund and hedge fund. Your model and my model will differ dramatically. Your model is heavily quant and data mining, and my model will include more qualitative.

It was just an example. MATLAB can/could indeed be used for creating and testing an initial model/hypothesis (even something opensource like R would also do the job). For actually running the model/system though, well that would not be done via MATLAB usually, it would be via an in house or otherwise optimized bit of kit due to speed issues.

With regards to the latter part, again I agree with you.

My GW2 model? A freaking joke, but made me 600 gold in a month and half of simple trade.

Nice :-)

Edit – SMC is just me being too lazy to type sequential monte carlo, VECM is vector error correction model.

Fenrir.3609:

Hell Avenger.7021:

I mean there are few people running a bit more complicated model than 3rd party providers, but you cannot get complex in this simple market at all.

I agree.

MatLab, that is very interesting. Isn’t that an academic stats tool? I didn’t know it is employ on a commercial basis. I have used it before. I don’t work in programming HFT, because I am not programmer by trade. I work in the investment industry, dealing with mutual fund and hedge fund. Your model and my model will differ dramatically. Your model is heavily quant and data mining, and my model will include more qualitative.

It was just an example. MATLAB can/could indeed be used for creating and testing an initial model/hypothesis (even something opensource like R would also do the job). For actually running the model/system though, well that would not be done via MATLAB usually, it would be via an in house or otherwise optimized bit of kit due to speed issues.

With regards to the latter part, again I agree with you.

My GW2 model? A freaking joke, but made me 600 gold in a month and half of simple trade.

Nice :-)

Edit – SMC is just me being too lazy to type sequential monte carlo, VECM is vector error correction model.

aah! Monte Carlos Simulations, cool. Love it, but don’t employ it often. Now VECM I have never use it before.

AntiGw.9367:

Zaxares.5419:

^ That’s true enough, Ursan, but we should also remember that for many players, they play games to get AWAY from that kind of inequality. Video game worlds are supposed to be a place where you can be someone you aren’t, where the playing field is (more or less) equal and everybody can have fun. If you’re someone who’s stuck in a dead-end job where people who earn much more than you can basically treat you like crap all day, do you really want to come home and log into a world where wealthy players are also doing their best to concentrate wealth in their own hands so they can also look down on you and show off all the nice things you’ll never have?

And on the flipside, if you’re a poor player in real life who wants to become rich in-game so you can gloat over poorer people, shame on you for missing the point. :P

There’s always inequality in every single game, you can’t get away from it.

In GW2 inequality is purely cosmetic. Owning mountains of gold simply means that you’ll look better than someone else. That is fully intentional design.

Few people will ever reach the top sPvP or WvW level. Few people will unlock certain skins. Few people will have certain minis. Few people will earn all achievements.

Should we start handicapping decent sPvP players because you want to get away from situations where someone is better than you? A certain movie where that’s exactly what people do comes to mind.

Since GW2 defines itself on cosmetic variation as end game, perhaps it would have been better design to award players with said variation based on actual game play rather than just amassing monetary wealth. And by actual game play I mean killing monsters and doing events since that is really what the game is all about.

JK Arrow.7102:

AntiGw.9367:

Zaxares.5419:

^ That’s true enough, Ursan, but we should also remember that for many players, they play games to get AWAY from that kind of inequality. Video game worlds are supposed to be a place where you can be someone you aren’t, where the playing field is (more or less) equal and everybody can have fun. If you’re someone who’s stuck in a dead-end job where people who earn much more than you can basically treat you like crap all day, do you really want to come home and log into a world where wealthy players are also doing their best to concentrate wealth in their own hands so they can also look down on you and show off all the nice things you’ll never have?

And on the flipside, if you’re a poor player in real life who wants to become rich in-game so you can gloat over poorer people, shame on you for missing the point. :P

There’s always inequality in every single game, you can’t get away from it.

In GW2 inequality is purely cosmetic. Owning mountains of gold simply means that you’ll look better than someone else. That is fully intentional design.

Few people will ever reach the top sPvP or WvW level. Few people will unlock certain skins. Few people will have certain minis. Few people will earn all achievements.

Should we start handicapping decent sPvP players because you want to get away from situations where someone is better than you? A certain movie where that’s exactly what people do comes to mind.

Since GW2 defines itself on cosmetic variation as end game, perhaps it would have been better design to award players with said variation based on actual game play rather than just amassing monetary wealth. And by actual game play I mean killing monsters and doing events since that is really what the game is all about.

Everything on the market came from players playing the game. You are rewarded for playing the game. You can simply get there more quickly if you take the effort to play the TP mini game.

JK Arrow.7102:

Since GW2 defines itself on cosmetic variation as end game, perhaps it would have been better design to award players with said variation based on actual game play rather than just amassing monetary wealth. And by actual game play I mean killing monsters and doing events since that is really what the game is all about.

You mean like the rewards for Living Story achievements, AP reward skins, vendors that sell armor and weapons for karma, dungeon tokens and W3 badges? The precursors and other items that can be crafted in the MF? Skins sold through the Gem Store?

The TP is only an alternate method of obtaining SOME items. Because not everyone wants to gamble on the BLTC keys, or do jumping puzzles, and so on. Many items cannot be traded so you cannot get them no matter how much gold you make on the TP, but in some cases you have the option of playing the game any way you want and accumulating enough gold to buy the items directly.

mtpelion.4562:

JK Arrow.7102:

AntiGw.9367:

Zaxares.5419:

^ That’s true enough, Ursan, but we should also remember that for many players, they play games to get AWAY from that kind of inequality. Video game worlds are supposed to be a place where you can be someone you aren’t, where the playing field is (more or less) equal and everybody can have fun. If you’re someone who’s stuck in a dead-end job where people who earn much more than you can basically treat you like crap all day, do you really want to come home and log into a world where wealthy players are also doing their best to concentrate wealth in their own hands so they can also look down on you and show off all the nice things you’ll never have?

And on the flipside, if you’re a poor player in real life who wants to become rich in-game so you can gloat over poorer people, shame on you for missing the point. :P

There’s always inequality in every single game, you can’t get away from it.

In GW2 inequality is purely cosmetic. Owning mountains of gold simply means that you’ll look better than someone else. That is fully intentional design.

Few people will ever reach the top sPvP or WvW level. Few people will unlock certain skins. Few people will have certain minis. Few people will earn all achievements.

Should we start handicapping decent sPvP players because you want to get away from situations where someone is better than you? A certain movie where that’s exactly what people do comes to mind.

Since GW2 defines itself on cosmetic variation as end game, perhaps it would have been better design to award players with said variation based on actual game play rather than just amassing monetary wealth. And by actual game play I mean killing monsters and doing events since that is really what the game is all about.

Everything on the market came from players playing the game. You are rewarded for playing the game. You can simply get there more quickly if you take the effort to play the TP mini game.

Let me rephrase that, I would argue that perhaps the “best” rewards should not be purchasable but rather earned.

tolunart.2095:

JK Arrow.7102:

Since GW2 defines itself on cosmetic variation as end game, perhaps it would have been better design to award players with said variation based on actual game play rather than just amassing monetary wealth. And by actual game play I mean killing monsters and doing events since that is really what the game is all about.

You mean like the rewards for Living Story achievements, AP reward skins, vendors that sell armor and weapons for karma, dungeon tokens and W3 badges? The precursors and other items that can be crafted in the MF? Skins sold through the Gem Store?

The TP is only an alternate method of obtaining SOME items. Because not everyone wants to gamble on the BLTC keys, or do jumping puzzles, and so on. Many items cannot be traded so you cannot get them no matter how much gold you make on the TP, but in some cases you have the option of playing the game any way you want and accumulating enough gold to buy the items directly.

For some of the items you mentioned, yes that is exactly how it works and I find that a good thing. However precursors, legendaries, gem store skins are not in the same category.

JK Arrow.7102:

Let me rephrase that, I would argue that perhaps the “best” rewards should not be purchasable but rather earned.

“Best” is entirely subjective. Legendary weapons may be the most complicated and most noticeable, but are not the best items in the game. I get it… the rewards you want should not be sold on the TP but rather handed to you…

Ironically, BiS equipment like Ascended items are account bound and cannot be obtained through the TP.

JK Arrow.7102:

Let me rephrase that, I would argue that perhaps the “best” rewards should not be purchasable but rather earned.

This is highly subjective, no? BiS gear can’t be purchased. Dungeon/karma gear can’t be purchased. A good chunk of minis can’t be purchased. I’d say half the backpieces that exist can’t be purchased.

JK Arrow.7102:

For some of the items you mentioned, yes that is exactly how it works and I find that a good thing. However precursors, legendaries, gem store skins are not in the same category.

This is a problem because….? Do you wish to completely remove the ability for players to purchase items from other players with gold?

tolunart.2095:

JK Arrow.7102:

Let me rephrase that, I would argue that perhaps the “best” rewards should not be purchasable but rather earned.

“Best” is entirely subjective. Legendary weapons may be the most complicated and most noticeable, but are not the best items in the game. I get it… the rewards you want should not be sold on the TP but rather handed to you…

Nope, I didn’t say handed to me. I said earned.

And I agree that “best” is subjective which is why I put it in quotes to begin with.

Let’s use Legendaries as the example since they are top tier, BIS, cosmetically above average, etc. Wouldn’t it have been better if in order to get one you had to complete a large number of in game activities rather than having most of it tied to monetary wealth?

Ursan.7846:

JK Arrow.7102:

For some of the items you mentioned, yes that is exactly how it works and I find that a good thing. However precursors, legendaries, gem store skins are not in the same category.

This is a problem because….? Do you wish to completely remove the ability for players to purchase items from other players with gold?

Not necessarily but the TP exists because there is no player to player trade ability. A player can’t trade a less desirable item for a more desirable item except through a monetary exchange.

As well as the fact that one cannot go out into the world and farm for a specific item drop. If I really want a Crystalline Sword I have to purchase it off the TP because of the way the drop tables work I am unable to go to a specific area and attempt to earn one by farming. If the latter were true, I don’t think we would have seen so many people flock to things like CoF P1 to earn coins. It may even help spread out the population into more maps.

Ursan.7846:

JK Arrow.7102:

Let me rephrase that, I would argue that perhaps the “best” rewards should not be purchasable but rather earned.

This is highly subjective, no? BiS gear can’t be purchased. Dungeon/karma gear can’t be purchased. A good chunk of minis can’t be purchased. I’d say half the backpieces that exist can’t be purchased.

Just another complaint about selling Legendary and precursor weapons on the TP. Imagine precursors were account or soulbound upon pickup. Your main is a warrior and you get the shortbow precursor, or an elementalist and you get Dusk. What should be a memorable occasion is just an inconvenience because now if you want to do anything other than vendor or break it you need to create and level a completely new character.

There are better ways they could have handled it, but you work with what you have, not with what you would like to have. They are working on an alternate path for people who don’t like RNG/TP methods, but it’s not something they can add to the game overnight because it will impact everyone who has/wants/is working on a Legendary.

JK Arrow.7102:

Not necessarily but the TP exists because there is no player to player trade ability. A player can’t trade a less desirable item for a more desirable item except through a monetary exchange.

As well as the fact that one cannot go out into the world and farm for a specific item drop. If I really want a Crystalline Sword I have to purchase it off the TP because of the way the drop tables work I am unable to go to a specific area and attempt to earn one by farming. If the latter were true, I don’t think we would have seen so many people flock to things like CoF P1 to earn coins. It may even help spread out the population into more maps.

Anet specifically created the TP so that the game would work this way. You can play the game itself and do whatever you want instead of running this particular dungeon over and over because it’s the only way to get a particular item. Or you can run this dungeon over and over because you want the tokens for a specific set of armor.

Most items in the game have multiple ways to acquire them. Some items don’t. You don’t have to like the way they set things up, but if you are going to play the game you must accept it.

JK Arrow.7102:

Not necessarily but the TP exists because there is no player to player trade ability. A player can’t trade a less desirable item for a more desirable item except through a monetary exchange.

Player to player trade ability doesn’t exist precisely because Anet implemented the TP, not the other way around.

JK Arrow.7102:

As well as the fact that one cannot go out into the world and farm for a specific item drop. If I really want a Crystalline Sword I have to purchase it off the TP because of the way the drop tables work I am unable to go to a specific area and attempt to earn one by farming. If the latter were true, I don’t think we would have seen so many people flock to things like CoF P1 to earn coins. It may even help spread out the population into more maps.

I don’t understand what “drop tables” do which makes you “unable” to farm something.

Many rewards in this game have pretty specific ways to earn it. Karma/Dungeon/Ascended/Exotic equipment, for example, all have pretty specific ways for you to obtain them. You know what the problem is though? People who don’t like doing X activity, but still want XY reward get shafted. I don’t like doing dungeons, yet I really like the look of Arah staff. That’s why gold is great. Gold gives you options, since there are many activities in this game which earns you gold (no, TP flipping isn’t the only method) and allows players to do what they want to earn rewards instead of ferretting them through specific content he/she may/may not like.

JK Arrow.7102:

Let’s use Legendaries as the example since they are top tier, BIS, cosmetically above average, etc. Wouldn’t it have been better if in order to get one you had to complete a large number of in game activities rather than having most of it tied to monetary wealth?

Are you referring to the new method of acquiring a precursor weapon that Anet has been working on for the last several months? It’s coming, things don’t just appear out if thin air because someone demands it.

Ursan.7846:

JK Arrow.7102:

Not necessarily but the TP exists because there is no player to player trade ability. A player can’t trade a less desirable item for a more desirable item except through a monetary exchange.

Player to player trade ability doesn’t exist precisely because Anet implemented the TP, not the other way around.

JK Arrow.7102:

As well as the fact that one cannot go out into the world and farm for a specific item drop. If I really want a Crystalline Sword I have to purchase it off the TP because of the way the drop tables work I am unable to go to a specific area and attempt to earn one by farming. If the latter were true, I don’t think we would have seen so many people flock to things like CoF P1 to earn coins. It may even help spread out the population into more maps.

I don’t understand what “drop tables” do which makes you “unable” to farm something.

Many rewards in this game have pretty specific ways to earn it. Karma/Dungeon/Ascended/Exotic equipment, for example, all have pretty specific ways for you to obtain them. You know what the problem is though? People who don’t like doing X activity, but still want XY reward get shafted. I don’t like doing dungeons, yet I really like the look of Arah staff. That’s why gold is great. Gold gives you options, since there are many activities in this game which earns you gold (no, TP flipping isn’t the only method) and allows players to do what they want to earn rewards instead of ferretting them through specific content he/she may/may not like.

My reference was from GW1 where there was no TP and everything was done player to player. They went from that model to the TP model. Granted there are also positives that that system generates, I don’t find it solely a negative.

As far as drop tables, my reference is from GW1. If I wanted a Bone Dragon Staff I could buy it from other players or I could attempt to farm one myself in Shards of Orr. If I wanted a Celestial Bow, I could attempt to get one from one of the Cantha city zones. If I wanted a Voltaic Spear I could do Slaver’s Exile. That isn’t possible in GW2 because everything can drop everything. There is no way to influence your outcome or at least narrow it down. It’s why people attempt to earn money rather than attempting to acquire a specific item they want.

tolunart.2095:

Most items in the game have multiple ways to acquire them. Some items don’t. You don’t have to like the way they set things up, but if you are going to play the game you must accept it.

I understand that my sole opinion will have no impact on the game design and “it is what it is”. I accept that. But it doesn’t mean I can’t or shouldn’t discuss alternatives.

tolunart.2095:

Are you referring to the new method of acquiring a precursor weapon that Anet has been working on for the last several months? It’s coming, things don’t just appear out if thin air because someone demands it.

Indeed.

JK Arrow.7102:

My reference was from GW1 where there was no TP and everything was done player to player. They went from that model to the TP model. Granted there are also positives that that system generates, I don’t find it solely a negative.

The GW2 TP model is far superior to the GW1 model. Great gold sink, convenience, less potential for scamming, etc. And obviously the developers agree with me here.

JK Arrow.7102:

As far as drop tables, my reference is from GW1. If I wanted a Bone Dragon Staff I could buy it from other players or I could attempt to farm one myself in Shards of Orr. If I wanted a Celestial Bow, I could attempt to get one from one of the Cantha city zones. If I wanted a Voltaic Spear I could do Slaver’s Exile. That isn’t possible in GW2 because everything can drop everything. There is no way to influence your outcome or at least narrow it down. It’s why people attempt to earn money rather than attempting to acquire a specific item they want.

Rare loot in GW2 works exactly the same as GW1.

If I want a Final Rest, I could buy it from other players or I could attempt to farm one myself from SB. If I want Charged Lodestones, I can farm CoE or buy it off the TP. If I wanted Vials of Blood, I’d farm karka in Southsun, or buy it off the TP.

There are things obtained through pure RNG (i.e. runes) but GW1 had those too (i.e. Insignias, random anniversary minis). Loot in GW2 is very similar to GW1. Take off your nostalgia goggles.

PS bought my Voltaic Spear in GW1 with gold I earned from CoF farming because I couldn’t be bothered with Slaver’s Exile. Gold = options.

EDIT: GW2 is even better since dungeon token system = guaranteed rewards instead of the pure RNG that was GW1’s high-end skins.

JK Arrow.7102:

My reference was from GW1 where there was no TP and everything was done player to player. They went from that model to the TP model. Granted there are also positives that that system generates, I don’t find it solely a negative.

You can still buy directly from other players. But now, as in GW, it is possible to scam other players through these methods. I find the TP to be superior to direct trading, I don’t need the chat window to be filled with “WTS…” spam.

You can easily limit it with an accelerating tax rate increasing transaction after transaction with a daily reset. Doesn’t have to be that harsh. Something like a 0,1% or 0,5% increment every transaction.

Would this force players to speculate on what to post first and what later or how many posts they can do on a daily basis? Yes, but it will also force TP Players to slow down a bit while it would be rather harmless for regular players and casuals.

Lisa.6102:

Hell Avenger.7021:

tolunart.2095:

Amun Ra.6435:

This conversation has been going longer before any news of the update was announced. I assume you and anyone else suggesting the same are fairly new to the forums.

You assume wrong, I’ve been active on the forums for a very long time. I’m referring to this thread, it’s one of three or four that have been posted in the last two days.

Exactly, all of sudden several threads poped up out of the blue.WAIT, not out of the blue. COF farmers are crying, because all of sudden they cannot afford to buy stuffs anymore while others can.

This is like YOU NERF THIEF, everyone SHOULD BE NERFED TOOOO

I’m afraid i think you are correct.

Never be afraid of thinking! EVER!

Anyways…no, this conversation has been going for some time now. LONG before any of the current nerfs were announced.

Amun Ra.6435:

Never be afraid of thinking! EVER!

Anyways…no, this conversation has been going for some time now. LONG before any of the current nerfs were announced.

This conversation will always be going on due to the fundamental difference of opinion between those who value equality of opportunity and those who value equality of result.

It is getting more attention right now due to the nerf threads.

Amun Ra.6435:

Anyways…no, this conversation has been going for some time now. LONG before any of the current nerfs were announced.

Unfortunately, this “conversation” (more innocuous than most of the words I could think of :P) really boils down to a playstyle vs. playstyle debate.

A reasonably noticeable number of players believe for one reason or another that accumulating gold is their endgame pursuit. As such they pursue the accumulation of in-game wealth through a preferred playstyle, either through farming or through trading. Trading is demonstrably superior to farming and so the farmers are calling for trading to be nerfed.

Same story as on every other forum here. Classes call for each other to be nerfed. Strict PvE players get upset when they feel they are being forced into PvP, casual players want hardcore content made more accessible, etc.

In fact – this is “conversation” bears a really strong resemblance to the classic PvE vs. PvP / risk vs. reward debate. I’ve never seen that debate resolved so I suspect continuing this one is probably a WOMBAT (Waste of Money, Brains and Time).

John Smith.4610:

I currently have no plans to limit players interaction with the world of Tyria in anyway. I believe it would be damaging to the economy, to the game experience and to the players overall..

We are already limited in the other interactions you mentioned. Some simple examples:

• one jumping puzzle reward per day per character
• one world boss chest reward per day per account
• diminishing returns on dungeon tokens after the first run on each path per day
• diminishing returns on farming mobs (mystery algorithm used here for security)

I’m not disagreeing with you on your response — just highlighting that we are already subject to restriction in the game to limit wealth that enters the economy.

The TP really doesn’t inject wealth, rather it removes it. So lack of restriction makes complete sense.

juno.1840:

John Smith.4610:

I currently have no plans to limit players interaction with the world of Tyria in anyway. I believe it would be damaging to the economy, to the game experience and to the players overall..

We are already limited in the other interactions you mentioned. Some simple examples:

• one jumping puzzle reward per day per character
• one world boss chest reward per day per account
• diminishing returns on dungeon tokens after the first run on each path per day
• diminishing returns on farming mobs (mystery algorithm used here for security)

I’m not disagreeing with you on your response — just highlighting that we are already subject to restriction in the game to limit wealth that enters the economy.

The TP really doesn’t inject wealth, rather it removes it. So lack of restriction makes complete sense.

This ^

This is one of the most limited games to play… after an hour or an hour and a half you already have nothing else to do online cause most of the activities have already been hit by one diminishing return or the other.

Mesket.5728:

juno.1840:

John Smith.4610:

I currently have no plans to limit players interaction with the world of Tyria in anyway. I believe it would be damaging to the economy, to the game experience and to the players overall..

We are already limited in the other interactions you mentioned. Some simple examples:

• one jumping puzzle reward per day per character
• one world boss chest reward per day per account
• diminishing returns on dungeon tokens after the first run on each path per day
• diminishing returns on farming mobs (mystery algorithm used here for security)

I’m not disagreeing with you on your response — just highlighting that we are already subject to restriction in the game to limit wealth that enters the economy.

The TP really doesn’t inject wealth, rather it removes it. So lack of restriction makes complete sense.

This ^

This is one of the most limited games to play… after an hour or an hour and a half you already have nothing else to do online cause most of the activities have already been hit by one diminishing return or the other.

Do the other +40 jumping puzzles?
Do the other dungeons and their paths?
Farm mobs in other zones?

I think it is important to note that actions in game can do one of three things to the economy:

1. Create Currency
2. Move Currency
3. Destroy Currency

If you look at the things that have been limited, you will recognize that they are all related to creating currency. They all have a fundamentally different impact on the game than the TP does.

John Smith.4610:

This is a great thread.

A few minor thoughts:
The TP is part of the world of Tyria and spending your time interacting with it is just as legitimate a play session as dungeons or jumping puzzles or any of our other fantastic content.

That being said, I see no evidence academically, theoretically or in practice that flipping items on the TP doesn’t push prices closer to equilibrium, eliminate dead weight loss and increase utility/surplus for the market on both the consumer and producer side.

I currently have no plans to limit players interaction with the TP in the world of Tyria in anyway. I believe it would be damaging to the economy, to the game experience and to the players overall.

That being said, if you have a dissenting opinion please discuss it here and voice your beliefs and concerns, we’re always watching and reading and learning and your input has been both intelligent and extremely valuable in the past.

edit: Edited because Juno makes a valid point.

Sorry, but I just can’t resist (I really tried).

Anyway, as I said earlier. I don’t think anyone seriously expects a limit to be placed on the TP, and I’m not entirely sure it should be.

I do however, think there have been several good comments about the effect to wealth disparity on the game, which, while not the main topic, should at least be considered.

John Smith.4610:

This is a great thread.

A few minor thoughts:
The TP is part of the world of Tyria and spending your time interacting with it is just as legitimate a play session as dungeons or jumping puzzles or any of our other fantastic content.

That being said, I see no evidence academically, theoretically or in practice that flipping items on the TP doesn’t push prices closer to equilibrium, eliminate dead weight loss and increase utility/surplus for the market on both the consumer and producer side.

I currently have no plans to limit players interaction with the world of Tyria in anyway. I believe it would be damaging to the economy, to the game experience and to the players overall.

That being said, if you have a dissenting opinion please discuss it here and voice your beliefs and concerns, we’re always watching and reading and learning and your input has been both intelligent and extremely valuable in the past.

I think you missed the point here, the whole flipper thing isnt about whether they offer anything to the game or are a legitimate playstyle. The issue is, tp flipping can make much higher money than any other playstyle, not only that, but the gains are heavily related to how much capital you generate, which means the more money you get, the more money you can get. (i understand there are limits, but these are so far out of the range of other gold earning abilities as not to be relevant in comparing the two)

The tp lets you make as much money as you can make, nothing else in the game does this.

So the problem becomes one of poor distribution of wealth favoring one playstyle. Im sure many say, then people should just adopt that playstyle, but this is not a game that was sold as great economic simulator, its supposed to be an adventure.

Either find a way to limit the growth of wealth through tp play, or come up with a way to give other playstyles the ability to earn wealth.
I would prefer the latter, but i figure it might be hard because gold obtained in other ways is usually created, while tp wealth is redistributed.

I could brainstorm of possible ways, but it would dilute the post.

essentially, its bad for the game to reward one playstyle more than others, especially a playstyle that is niche to the genre.