Guild Wars 2

No, because there’s a demand for sexualisation, and there is nothing inherently wrong with sexualisation.

edit: Even then, this thread is not asking for sexualised armour. It’s asking for armour that shows skin.

Rubykuby.3427:

No, because there’s a demand for sexualisation, and there is nothing inherently wrong with sexualisation.

Depends. Its all relative. I think many folks would argue that a game like Tera is taking sexualisation too far (even if men are also sexualized in that game). And Tomb Raider was even taking the female stereotype so far, that they basically ran their franchise into the ground (thus the reboot). And I think very few women would defend a game like X-Blades, because one look at the cover art tells us enough about the target audience. There certainly is a demand more a more mature approach to the way characters are depicted in games. And just because there is a majority that is in favor of really skimpy outfits, is no excuse to not strive for improvement of the female image in games.

Rubykuby.3427:

edit: Even then, this thread is not asking for sexualised armour. It’s asking for armour that shows skin.

I think this thread has evolved far beyond that, ending up with a far more interesting discussion. If you want to take it back to the original topic, you’ll find no one to argue with you. Just one big silent majority that all nod their heads. Is that what you want instead? Because no one will disagree with more armor options. No one is forcing you to debate this with me. I’m merely replying.

I’ll repeat after myself: So much as I hate economics, one does not simply work against the market’s demands.

And provided both sexes are portrayed skimpily, it wouldn’t be sexist, and therefore wouldn’t negatively affect the female image in relation to the male image.

But I don’t have the default assumption that a skimpy portrayal is offensive or degrading. It can be, but it needn’t be. In the same manner, a dumb portrayal can be offensive or degrading. “ME SMASH” characters are exclusively male, and this phenomenom is therefore sexist. Applying the same points of action:

1. A dumb portrayal isn’t offensive per se.
2. Sexism is bad.
3. Solely men are portrayed as dumb.
4. That is sexist.
5. Let’s undo that sexism by portraying women as dumb, too.
6. ???
7. Profit.

That approach makes sense. The approach of removing dumb characters doesn’t make sense, because dumb characters have their place in fantasy settings. In the very same manner, sexy characters have their place in fantasy settings. The challenge is to evenly spread out the sexiness between the genders as not to call forth sexism.

Correct me if i’m wrong mad king but you are suggesting removing skimpy armors right ?
I sera you are against sexual depiction of women. And that is your right but some of us want to see more skin or at least armors that show womens’ charm. I like my characters to be feminine and if you look at heavy and medium armor there is a lack of armors that enable us to show that feminine side. Most armors are realistic yes but are seriously ugly at least in my opinion. Heavy armora are just… you look like some bodybuilding woman. And my personal story , in my case, makes no sense with the armor I’m currently wearing.
All I ask is diversity . There is a lot of skimpy light armor maybe a bit too much but heavy ans medium armors don’t have this chance.

Finally I agree male characters should also be able to wear skimpy armors. What people want is diversity.

Sorry about my bad English :/

Enewia.1356:

Correct me if i’m wrong mad king but you are suggesting removing skimpy armors right ?

Mad Queen. And no, that is not my position.

Enewia.1356:

Sorry about my bad English :/

I suspect most of the people on this forum aren’t native English speakers. Don’t worry about it.

Rubykuby.3427:

I’ll repeat after myself: So much as I hate economics, one does not simply work against the market’s demands.

Oh rubbish. An audience can demand better characters, and we can see that it works. Crystal Dynamics made an honest effort to reinvent the Lara Croft character to make her appealing to a wider audience. They had to, because despite people liking sexy Lara, the oversexualization of the character had come to a point where no one could possibly take her serious any more.

It is okay to demand better quality, even if you are a minority. But I don’t think we are a minority. A vocal minority perhaps, but not a minority in itself. And I think game studios realize that.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

OR… not depict either one as sexualized stereotypes. Just depict them as normal men and women. Isn’t that a more logical approach?

Sorry about your nickname gw2 messed up.my mind. Anyway may I ask what did you mean by normal then ?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Rubykuby.3427:

I’ll repeat after myself: So much as I hate economics, one does not simply work against the market’s demands.

Oh rubbish. An audience can demand better characters, and we can see that it works. Crystal Dynamics made an honest effort to reinvent the Lara Croft character to make her appealing to a wider audience. They had to, because despite people liking sexy Lara, the oversexualization of the character had come to a point where no one could possibly take her serious any more.

It is okay to demand better quality, even if you are a minority. But I don’t think we are a minority. A vocal minority perhaps, but not a minority in itself. And I think game studios realize that.

Not rubbish. Look up the TED talk by Jane McGonigal. Video game characters are an idealisation of oneself. Being sexy is a major demand of many people in idealisation of oneself, and sexiness is therefore a market demand. One can be sexy in a tasteful and unoffensive manner entirely, even when showing skin in accordance to the thread, so I don’t see the issue.

The fact of the matter is that people want attractive characters, and a fair chunk of the people that want attractive characters don’t want just attractive, but sexy too. This can be skillfully pulled off without causing any hassles or discrimination, as seen in GW1.

I don’t see the issue you’re still having, considering in my idea all sexism would be taken care of. Hence my earlier assumptions that it’s not the sexism that bothers you, but the concept of sexualised depiction of women.

edit: Also, you’re assuming that “not sexually depicted” equals “better”. That’s an erroneous assumption.

Enewia.1356:

Sorry about your nickname gw2 messed up.my mind. Anyway may I ask what did you mean by normal then ?

I mean normal functional armors. As in contrast to sexy outfits that expose boobs and underwear.

Rubykuby.3427:

Not rubbish. Look up the TED talk by Jane McGonigal. Video game characters are an idealisation of oneself. Being sexy is a major demand of many people in idealisation of oneself, and sexiness is therefore a market demand. One can be sexy in a tasteful and unoffensive manner entirely, even when showing skin in accordance to the thread, so I don’t see the issue.

Lets make a clear difference here between playing an ideal beauty, and playing a female character in her underwear. A character like say Nathan Drake from Uncharted, is an ideal beautiful male character. He is made to be attractive on purpose, because people enjoy playing the attractive hero, and the female audience likes looking at one as well.

There is nothing wrong with that. I don’t object to it.

Ivy in Soul Calibur is a sexualized character. She isn’t just attractive. Everything about her character design revolves around being a male sexy fantasy. Ivy wouldn’t be so much an issue, if it was a one time occurrence. But this portrayal of women is quite frequent in games. REALLY frequent.

I don’t object to attractive characters, and I don’t think everyone should be playing ugly characters. I object to the skimpy outfits that women are always (or often) are made to wear in games. I’m against this particular persistent stereotype as women as male sex fantasies.

Rubykuby.3427:

edit: Also, you’re assuming that “not sexually depicted” equals “better”. That’s an erroneous assumption.

I’m not assuming that. But not having a negative stereotype is always better than having one.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I mean normal functional armors. As in contrast to sexy outfits that expose boobs and underwear.

Like Tier 3 Human armor ? I agree some light armor are “too much” but I don’t see any Heavy or Medium armor that shows too much skin. Yes maybe a little underboob but that’s not what I would call too sexy.

So, to summarize…

We all want…

-More variety in armors, including sets that reveal skin
-Equal presentation of men and women when wearing the same armor set
-No tacky, tasteless armor (of which there are a couple of borderline examples in the game, I’d say)

Now, I don’t think anyone here disagrees with these, or am I wrong? And if so, then this debate has moved on, beyond Guild Wars 2 to game industry in general. So, if one argues on topic of gaming industry in general, and another on Guild Wars 2, naturally there will be conflict. I’d find it a welcome change to this topic if all parties would at least admit that they want more or less the same things.

I can agree to all those points Tuomir, especially the “No tacky, tasteless armor”. But that’s been a bit of a point of discussion several times now. What one person finds tacky or tasteless, another finds attractive.

One has to seriously ask if we want to be following the majority opinion on this. If it is the majority that matters, then by Grenth we should all be supporting Rebecca Black’s musical career, because she has tons of fans.

Sometimes it is good to listen to a minority (and I don’t even believe that we are a minority really).

I’ve just completely lost your sense of logic. Do you even have any idea how confusing you are? “I’m not against skimpy armour, but I want normal functional armours, which means outfits that do not expose boobs and/or underwear. Also I’m not assuming that anything that doesn’t feature sexualisation is better, but I’m kind of implying exactly that by implying that it’s a negative stereotype.”

That’s how you’re coming across to me.

So let’s redo this.

1. Sexual depiction isn’t bad.
2. Sexism is bad.
3. Women are currently exclusively being sexually depicted.
4. That’s sexism.
5. Let’s undo that sexism by sexually depicting men, too, at least in the armour department. Because applying rational logic, men aren’t exclusively objectified by how they look, but we’re going to forget that logic for a moment.
6. ???
7. Profit.

We agreed on point one that sexual depiction isn’t necessarily bad. And we agreed that sexism is bad. And we agreed that women are almost exclusively sexually depicted. And we agreed that that is sexism on the premise that it’s discrimination on the basis of gender. Then you disagreed with my proposed solution of evening out the sexual depiction between the genders, with no solid reasons other than “well we could just leave it out as well”, followed by strings of text that are somehow supposed to reveal negative stereotypes which I quite frankly don’t get.

We agreed that sexual depiction isn’t evil. You heavily disagreed with me when I stated that it’s sexual depiction you despise, and now you’re more or less changing your mind. So why, if sexual depiction isn’t evil, are you shying away from using sexual depiction on men to even out the levels of sexism?

Worse yet, I hate using the word “sexual depiction” or “sexualisation”, because those things hardly exist in Guild Wars 2. “Sexy” would be a better word, but the problem is that one can be sexy in a plethora of ways, and each and every person attaches different meaning to “sexy”. So sexual depiction is what I’ll go with, even though what I really mean is armour that shows enough skin to be considered either a little bit provocative or sexually attractive.

You suggest “not to show either gender as sexualised stereotypes”, which is kind of abuse of the word stereotype, but I’ll just give you that. By saying that, you’re ignoring human nature of being attracted to sexualisation like bees to honey. Now we have the choice to aptly incorporate sexualisation by doing so in a tasteful manner and applying it to both genders, or by solely throwing sexualisation of body at women in the taste ANet has chosen so far (which is far from atrocious).

All I’m rooting for is having equalised armour for men and women, and tasteful attractive armour that reveals skin, as well as tasteful attractive armour that doesn’t reveal skin. Why do you have to keep disagreeing in the end? To keep the debate going because you so much enjoy expressing your opinion on how women are objectified? Please.

edit: In fact, I’ll quote you once more, because you have a habit of editing your posts.

“I object to the skimpy outfits that women are always (or often) are made to wear in games.”

You’re contradicting yourself. Heavily. First you tell Enewia you don’t oppose skimpy armour, now you bluntly say that you do oppose skimpy armour. Will you finally make up your mind? Because, just by reading this sentence, it’s once again not sexism you’re opposing, but sexual depiction, which you’ll now tell me you don’t at all oppose. If it truly is sexism you’re opposing, you would agree with me that depicting the genders in an equally skimpy manner would solve the problem, as well as offering both genders the option not to wear skimpy armour at all, which GW2 already does.

Rubykuby.3427:

You suggest “not to show either gender as sexualised stereotypes”, which is kind of abuse of the word stereotype, but I’ll just give you that. By saying that, you’re ignoring human nature of being attracted to sexualisation like bees to honey. Now we have the choice to aptly incorporate sexualisation by doing so in a tasteful manner and applying it to both genders, or by solely throwing sexualisation of body at women in the taste ANet has chosen so far (which is far from atrocious).

There is a time and a place for everything. Sexualized characters work fine in a game like God of War or Lollypop Chainsaw, or even Bayonetta, since the latter two are kind of poking fun at the whole stereotype. But do we really need it in Guild Wars 2? Wouldn’t the game be better off with just good looking but tasteful armors? You don’t need to strip a female character down to her undies to make her sexy. Hell, you don’t even need to strip men down to their undies to make them sexy. If sexy is what you want for both genders, why go the tasteless route? That’s all I’m saying. Just say no to tasteless tacky armor.

Rubykuby.3427:

All I’m rooting for is having equalised armour for men and women, and tasteful attractive armour that reveals skin, as well as tasteful attractive armour that doesn’t reveal skin. Why do you have to keep disagreeing in the end? To keep the debate going because you so much enjoy expressing your opinion on how women are objectified? Please.

I’m not disagreeing with you simply for the sake of disagreeing. I disagree, because I don’t support your position, and find that your arguments poorly support your position.

What? I never suggested stripping down women to their underwear? Nobody in this thread ever did. In fact, this thread doesn’t even mention the need for armour that sexually depicts women (or men), but I’m forced to go down that route while arguing with you. Worse yet, you say “just say no to tasteless tacky armour”, then quote me saying that all I want is tasteful armour. Can you please sort yourself out?

I’m all for it! As long as there will be add-ons and not replacers to existing content Why would anyone complain about content they’re not forced to use!?

Bring on the skimpy armor lol. More variety and eyecandy for me. Too bad none of my characters are human :/

I ain’t gonna sugarcoat it. As a matter of fact, let em all just run around half naked with swords and hammers (human females only plzzz)

it’s a lost cause, no one will ever accept the good point some people make here, and i fell sorry for mad queen and all the other girls here that thinks same as her.

i’m sorry you’ll never get them, they are stubborn and will never be prone to say, maybe you are right because they want to see boobs and you are trying to prevent them for doing so in a field that in their mind is only theirs (videogames).

they will never ever understand not in this forum and not in front of everyone here, they pretend to counter your argument, maybe some of them know you are right but they will never admit it and they still want to see boobs more than realizing what is wrong with them!

Amadan.9451:

it’s a lost cause, no one will ever accept the good point some people make here, and i fell sorry for mad queen and all the other girls here that thinks same as her.

i’m sorry you’ll never get them, they are stubborn and will never be prone to say, maybe you are right because they want to see boobs and you are trying to prevent them for doing so in a field that in their mind is only theirs (videogames).

they will never ever understand not in this forum and not in front of everyone here, they pretend to counter your argument, maybe some of them know you are right but they will never admit it and they still want to see boobs more than realizing what is wrong with them!

Tell me where I can see boobs in this game.

this is one of those stupid argument you all think you have when you think you are right…
since there is no actual boobs you can pretend you don’t know what i really wanted to say and btw people are still whining because the arah armor that showed one boob was changed, so yes, people want to see boobs and they say it’s because is artistic

I really like the argument of “how does some of this armor work?” “it defies gravity” “it’s unrealistic”… well guess what my character shoots fireballs, takes multiple swipes from swords and fights dragons. Don’t be so selective in your suspension of disbelief.

CharrGirl.7896:

GuardianOMS.8067:

You can answer all your questions by remembering that males are the intended audience for these games.

What if I told you that not all boys are into oversexualized outfits? You’re putting all males in the same bucket. Not all men act like drooling caveman. My boyfriend prefers dignified outfits over sexy ones, so does my brother. Shocking i know. Inb4 labels.

No way! ONE person doesn’t fit a generalization. Get out of town! It’s a stereotype that is marketed to, stop acting like I’m suggesting it applies to every single person.

Amadan.9451:

this is one of those stupid argument you all think you have when you think you are right…
since there is no actual boobs you can pretend you don’t know what i really wanted to say and btw people are still whining because the arah armor that showed one boob was changed, so yes, people want to see boobs and they say it’s because is artistic

Well at least we can agree that this is a stupid argument. Also “pretend you don’t know what i really wanted to say” seriously? how about you just say what you want to say?

I still see no boobs in this game, what? A couple of light armor tops that look like bikini tops getting you all haughty? Give me a break..

I don’t have much free time today so this it it for now:

Leo, stay on topic instead of attacking me, for instance, you mention a topic where I posted armor suggestions and examples, but instead of giving some feedback on the armors, you attacked me.

But since you attacked me why shouldn’t I attack you, specially since I know you’ll ignore my on-topic phrase above, and go right back to attacking me on your next post.
So: do you also believe slavery is okay because some slaves believed they were meant to be slaves and were okay with it, even serving their masters with their lives?
Because that’s what you’re suggesting, with your “logic”.

As for the question “Why spend so much time talking about this?”
I don’t know about Mad Queen, but I love debate as much as I love video games. And that’s what a forum is, “a meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged” quoted straight out of google dictionary.

This thread reminds me of a certain person who said “if women have an orgasm while being kitten then it wasn’t kitten #8221; (but only when it comes to women though, of-cooourse)
Don’t know how someone could say something so imbecile.

And since we’re on the off-topic bandwagon:
@Amadan thanks for your support on this!
Just wanted to say girls are female children, like boys are male children, and since most females in this thread are probably already grown up, it would probably be better to say “women”. It would really mean a lot to me if people said women instead of girls. Eh, it’s up to you, but just wanted to mention that

sorry, i can’t speak and write english very well, so i hardly sometimes understand difference between words like girl-woman.
i didn’t mean to say it by disrespect and thank you for telling me about it!

and yes, i’ll always be on women side on this (and a lot of others circustamces too). i wanted you to know that your point makes perfect sense, you all proved it more than one time, with logic, metaphor, analogies, rationality and when needed even irrationality, but your point made always sense to me, they just will never admit it

Folk.2093:

Amadan.9451:

this is one of those stupid argument you all think you have when you think you are right…
since there is no actual boobs you can pretend you don’t know what i really wanted to say and btw people are still whining because the arah armor that showed one boob was changed, so yes, people want to see boobs and they say it’s because is artistic

Well at least we can agree that this is a stupid argument. Also “pretend you don’t know what i really wanted to say” seriously? how about you just say what you want to say?

I still see no boobs in this game, what? A couple of light armor tops that look like bikini tops getting you all haughty? Give me a break..

i repeat i said people want to see boobs more than want to be just or simply rational, i didn’t said that you can see boobs everywhere in the game, so your counter point is lame, like your logic

Amadan.9451:

Folk.2093:

Amadan.9451:

this is one of those stupid argument you all think you have when you think you are right…
since there is no actual boobs you can pretend you don’t know what i really wanted to say and btw people are still whining because the arah armor that showed one boob was changed, so yes, people want to see boobs and they say it’s because is artistic

Well at least we can agree that this is a stupid argument. Also “pretend you don’t know what i really wanted to say” seriously? how about you just say what you want to say?

I still see no boobs in this game, what? A couple of light armor tops that look like bikini tops getting you all haughty? Give me a break..

i repeat i said people want to see boobs more than want to be just or simply rational, i didn’t said that you can see boobs everywhere in the game, so your counter point is lame, like your logic

You said that mad queen crusader up top is preventing people from seeing boobs, yet there are no boobs to see; tell me again about lame logic, thanks.

So now we’re comparing Slavery to skimpy armor which shows no nudity in a video game which doesn’t even force you to use said skimpy armor and also adding in that because this is a forum we should argue for the sake of arguing.

classic; this argument is ridiculous I’m out.

As I see it… Mad Queen… you are against the choice.
You keep saying no one understands or sees the viewpoint you represent. But you too completely miss what others are saying.
Your side call us out for personal attacks while you do the same. We have been called sexist (despite being for equality), pervs, imature etc. and you wonder why others call you feministic?

You said you don’t care about women that disagree with you, right dismiss one big part of the population on behalf of another…

As for the suggested pictures Loraz… I am not against them, they seem alright… don’t like them all that much, and disagree with your changes to them, but that is my taste. And is still denying me and others the choice that we want.

Just gonna add this… I used to have huge respect for you Malafide, I remember you as a cool person in GW1. Actually I still think so… but I am not seeing it in this topic… sorry.

Due to the inflammatory tone of this thread, it will be closed. Please keep in mind that if you want to discuss issues on our forums, you have to do it in a constructive way.