Guild Wars 2

I always break the forums.

Malafide, I have one problem with this discussion.

You are basing all your arguments on the feminist assumption I presented to you in my first post, and I will repeat again: Feminism assumes that in cases of gender discrimination, women always get the short end of the stick. As such, feminism strives for equality for women in relation to men. Gender egalitarianism assumes that in cases of gender discrimination, both sides get the short end of the stick. As such, gender egalitarianism strives for equality for both sides equally.

You simply don’t open your eyes to the egalitarian viewpoint. You’ve quite bluntly stated to me that women have it worse in video games, without putting any thought behind what I’d just said. If you had retreated from the discussion for a moment and thought hard on the egalitarian point of view, maybe you would have come to a better – or at least more rational – conclusion. The best example of what I’d just said is, again, Warren Farrell’s quote: “Men’s greatest weakness is their facade of strength, and women’s greatest strength is their facade of weakness.”

Women are portrayed as weak [in relation to men]. Biologically, there is some merit to that, but fine, we’ll drop biology for a moment. Because women are portrayed as weak, this means men must be stronger. What you’re doing is this: “But what about the poor strong women who don’t fit the picture?” What I’m doing is this: “But what about the poor strong women and poor weak men who don’t fit the picture?” Which of either is less sexist? The feminist approach is one-sided and flawed. Feminism claims to care about men every now and then, but truly, they don’t.

Moreso, you have this default assumption that women are consistently portrayed as sex objects in video games. Feminists love sexual objectification. It’s the “get out of jail” free card for any argument. How so? Because, generally and sadly so, men and women are treated differently per societal standards. Feminism always assumes that men have it better, so they wish women be treated more like men. Truth is? Men have never had it better than women historically: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LkYDpQQVJ0 (I’m neither a libertarian nor an MRA, but it’s a good video)

Men have been the infamous scum of the earth. They worked hard, sometimes to death, to support their wives, kids and elderly parents at home. Feminists view this phenomenom as such: “OMG! Women weren’t allowed to work? That’s blasphemy!” But truly, they have no idea what they’re saying. The women didn’t want to work; they had a family to look after, and a lot of technology to make things quicker hadn’t been invented yet. But truly, what the anecdote shows is sexual objectification. Men were mere disposable work forces, whilst women were somewhat more valuable housekeepers. And men loved their wives even back then. People often forget that the concept of love is timeless. It’s not like these men were extremely abusive to their wives, though of course there have been exceptions. And is it perhaps true that husbands had a superior say over their wives? Yes. Is this sexist? Yes. Is this unjustifiable? No. The men worked extremely hard, and I’d say it was their right to determine what happens with the money he worked for, and what happens with the things he spent money on. This is, of course, only applicable in that zeitgeist.

We live in a different zeitgeist now. Second wave feminism has come along, and women have gained a lot of universal human rights a tad later than men did. Which, hey, was cool. But third wave feminism is lunatic. And you say you’re not a feminist, but every non-argument you’ve so far pulled into this argument has been the default feminist argument of “women have it worse”. Both sexes have it bad; approach the problem from both sides for the love of God.

This whole women are consistently portrayed as sex objects? You have tunnelvision. If all you’re seeing in women in video games is sexual objectification, you’re blind. There are heaps upon heaps of female characters that are anything but sex objects, but you choose to blindly limit your argument to the characters that are. But what of men? Surely their position must be ideal? No, not at all. Men are consistently portrayed as stereotypical white knights, “ME SMASH” characters, evil overlords, rambos, vague mysterious rogue characters and general bad guys. Are all male characters portrayed as such? Nah. I’m glad. But it is typically men who are any of these characters. Female evil overlords are rare (I love Faolain though), and female rambos simply don’t exist.

But surely, the above list of men has more variety than the single thing women get thrown at them? Nope. Women are generally portrayed as the following characters: Sex objects, sweet dolls, foul witches, dextrous assassins, caring priestesses, and so forth. There’s enough variety; it’s just different. But feminism has it that everything that is different is disadvantageous for women, which is ridiculous. But the thing is that “sex objects” are a little different from the rest. “Sex object” isn’t an occupation, whereas dextrous assassinhood clearly is. This can be easily explained.

Men are typically judged by their occupation. Women have adopted this due to second wave feminism. Women – before that point in time – were more likely to be judged by their looks and personality, because their occupation was generally always housekeeper. Both ways of judgement have their pros and cons. But it is my belief that feminism is utterly stupid for trying to tell people that women mustn’t be judged by their looks or personality. It is my belief that it is the men who are victimised because they are solely judged by their occupation, and are in dire need of more ways to be judged. There is nothing inherently wrong about judging a person by their looks. It starts to become a problem when people are blind enough to only judge by looks. And ideally, we’d only judge on personality, but that’s too farfetched for today’s society.

The truth is that women in video games are just fine. Not a majority, but a minority of female characters are portrayed as sex objects. Is the position of women in video games ideal? Nah, but neither is the men’s position. They’ll improve over time. Things are balancing out since the early days of video gaming, but the sex objects you so hate will most likely always remain, because they are liked by male and female players alike. Sure, some people may not like them, but that’s what we have variety for. For example, I don’t like axes as weapons. Never have, never will. But to suddenly hate the ranger profession because they have axes available to them or even start with axes is lunacy. The same goes for women in video games (it’s funny because I just objectified women to the level of an axe).

Apologies before hand if I didn’t get to reply to any of your points. There’s a lot to reply to from all of you, and I wish I could reply to everything. So I’ll pick and choose, not to avoid discussion, but to keep things readable.

Also, some posters suggested again that I was trying to force my opinion on people, and take away people’s choices. This is not the case, I never stated that, and you should feel bad for strawmanning my opinion again and again. Thats a dishonst thing to do, and you should feel bad. I’m simply criticizing the portrayal of women in GW2 and games in general. Stick to what is actually said, don’t make things up, or put words in my mouth.

Leo G.4501:

How does one ascertain which is first and which is secondary? Just because they have physical characteristics that are noticeable?

That’s a good question. Often this can be answered by asking yourself if the character would still function if she was of a different gender. Is the character defined by her gender? Or is she defined by who she is?

Leo G.4501:

Also, I hear people say how badly suchandsuch writer writes for women characters…I wonder, why don’t the critics attack said writer instead? Instead, they’ll demean the product, the buyers of the product, the avenue of the product and everyone but whomever wrote badly. They usually don’t suggest a writer who writes better female characters either.

George RR Martin writes good female characters. Some of the writers at Naughty Dog write really good female characters. But I think the game industry currently lacks writers that are good writers to begin with. This also applies to GW2, I think the writing of female characters in GW2 has been pretty underwhelming. Fortunately, it has been consistently underwhelming across all genders. But still.

Mirta.5029:

why do you think that those turtles are male anyway? Last time I checked they didn’t seem to have sexual organs as well. Also in your opinion if a weak person falls into trouble repeatedly it should not be saved by the opposite sex, because that’s sexism?

I didn’t say she shouldn’t be saved. I said that the whole concept of her being captured EVERY single episode is really sexist. It portrays women as helpless, weak and dumb. And seriously, you want to argue that the turtles (all named after famous male artists, and voiced by male actors, and consistently portrayed as being men) do not fall into specific gender? That’s a bit far fetched don’t you think. You are going a long way to avoid my argument.

Also, quoting what sexism is from the dictionary, isn’t the same as understanding what it is. I was asking you if you understood. Because this is a pretty blatant case where women are shoehorned into a negative stereotype. You can’t go more blatant than that.

Mirta.5029:

Also if in your opinion media describes women wrong, why don’t you write an action story with an ugly military unit female as the main character, that will portray women “right”? Because I’m a woman that doesn’t think that women are being portrayed wrong at all.

I’m not a writer, but there are writers that have done that successfully. For example:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-0aIXQOkZE9o/TqpGuJ_HioI/AAAAAAAABZI/2QV8en_zmRk/s400/3.jpg
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/thumb/d/d3/Brienne_of_Tarth_HBO.jpg/300px-Brienne_of_Tarth_HBO.jpg

The trick is to write them as characters first. Gender should be irrelevant. A character is not defined by his/her gender. That is why thinking from the “pretty girl” perspective is such a flawed idea. That’s not how you write compelling characters.

Mirta.5029:

And why do you think that her starting point is a “pretty” girl? She’s a scholar, obviously quite smart, she is able to investigate ancient ruins, push trough the pain and is not afraid to go trough hell for her friends.
Now having in mind that Lara is a video game character – going by your logic she shouldn’t be portrayed at all, because you chose to ignore her personality and focus on the looks.

I simply recognize a shallow character when I see one. Lara Croft is one of the most overrated female characters in videogames. There’s a lot of pretentiousness that surrounds her, especially with the reboot. People just don’t seem to be able to get around the fact that she’s hot, and you’ll never write a good character that way.

Rubykuby.3427:

Malafide, I have one problem with this discussion.

You are basing all your arguments on the feminist assumption I presented to you in my first post, and I will repeat again: Feminism assumes that in cases of gender discrimination, women always get the short end of the stick. As such, feminism strives for equality for women in relation to men. Gender egalitarianism assumes that in cases of gender discrimination, both sides get the short end of the stick. As such, gender egalitarianism strives for equality for both sides equally.

I don’t subscribe to any particular group. I’m not a feminist, even if I am taking a side in this argument that defends the female point of view. I don’t have any particular goal.

So let me be clear, just because I take a position that sounds feminist, does not mean that I automatically have feminist goals. I’ve been quite clear about that. I don’t see any need for me to defend gender equality, I merely attack negative stereotypes and objectification where I recognize it. I’ll happily admit that I choose my battles. I criticize what bothers me.

Rubykuby.3427:

Women are portrayed as weak [in relation to men]. Biologically, there is some merit to that, but fine, we’ll drop biology for a moment. Because women are portrayed as weak, this means men must be stronger. What you’re doing is this:

I’m not really doing anything. Like I said, I don’t follow a cause, and I don’t have a goal. I just attack the stereotype. Judging by the reactions, a lot of you are conscienceless aware of the stereotype, and realize its kind of embarrassing… so why do so many of you defend it?

Rubykuby.3427:

Moreso, you have this default assumption that women are consistently portrayed as sex objects in video games. Feminists love sexual objectification. It’s the “get out of jail” free card for any argument.

Its not an assumption, there are so many examples of female objectification of women in videogames, that you could literally decorate a house with images of such examples. And I think all of you know that women often appear in sexy outfits in games, while men are portrayed without the sexual context.

I’m honestly surprised that anyone would defend the contrary.

“Female point of view”. See, this is where you’re going astray already. There is no such thing as a female point of view. Surprise surprise, women are individuals, too, and have individual viewpoints. There is no collective female point of view, so convenient as that would be towards your cause.

You, too, ignore male objectification.

And you don’t take into account the ratio of objectified women versus non-objectified women. Objectification is not inherently damaging nor inherently evil. Objectification can be a very valid move. I’m a writer; I’ve objectified a woman to the level of a digital pocket pet in a plot I’m working on. Does that mean my work is now sexist and despicable? Not at all, especially if you note that it’s the digital pocket pet who ends up as the winner. The woman in my plot is useless entirely on her own, but serves a massive central role in the plot. As a matter of fact, I hide the fact that the woman is useless to the best of my ability as a facade, to keep the main character and the audience blind to the fact that she’s disposable.

Why is that character a woman? Per chance. The previous work I wrote featured an oddly sophisticated girl. So I started out with the idea of a male protagonist for the next work, and to keep in line with heterosexuality, the useless character became a woman. I could’ve chosen a female protagonist again and written a male digital pocket pet, but I didn’t want to.

So there, I’ve objectified a character, and I feel no regret, for it fits the plot. Objectification isn’t bad, only for so long as it happens for a good reason, and so long as it doesn’t happen exclusively to one sex. And you’re too blind to see that men, too, are objectified. In other ways entirely, but objectified nonetheless.

But again, you see only female objectification. You fail to see the heaps upon heaps of female characters that are anything but objectified, and the heaps upon heaps of male characters that are indeed objectified.

Rubykuby.3427:

You, too, ignore male objectification.

Yes I do. Because like I said, I pick my battles. I attack what bothers me the most. And currently, the number of cases in video games of men being objectified, is next to none (so I ignore it). While there are tons of examples of women being objectified (so I have something to say about it). And sure there are also cases of female characters that aren’t objectified, but that’s not what I’m attacking. So what does it matter?

If you feel that male objectification also needs to be attacked, then feel free to do so. But it’s not my battle. And I don’t see any reason why it should be. After all, I didn’t take any position in gender equality.

And I am just sitting here, waiting for a long, noble skirt for my Mesmer that is not made of foliage, doesn’t show a lot of skin and doesn’t clips with my favourite light boots (AC) and my favourite light top (Magician).

We really need more armor skins (of all kinds and for all tastes).

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Rubykuby.3427:

You, too, ignore male objectification.

Yes I do. Because like I said, I pick my battles. I attack what bothers me the most. And currently, the number of cases in video games of men being objectified, is next to none (so I ignore it). While there are tons of examples of women being objectified (so I have something to say about it). And sure there are also cases of female characters that aren’t objectified, but that’s not what I’m attacking. So what does it matter?

If you feel that male objectification also needs to be attacked, then feel free to do so. But it’s not my battle. And I don’t see any reason why it should be. After all, I didn’t take any position in gender equality.

saying that men are not being objectified is bias. Even them portrayed as strong is objectifying.
Objectifying is assigning a trait to a person and basing that person around the trait.
Really it doesn’t mean that the person has no other traits that might shine trough. It doesn’t mean to make them empty. All it means is assigning s strong and dominant trait. Men normally get it done to them far more often for women. You fighting for “women” is actually only hurting women. In example – if this fight was won we would get less armors. Why would you fight against our right to chose from a bigger variety?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I didn’t say she shouldn’t be saved. I said that the whole concept of her being captured EVERY single episode is really sexist. It portrays women as helpless, weak and dumb. And seriously, you want to argue that the turtles (all named after famous male artists, and voiced by male actors, and consistently portrayed as being men) do not fall into specific gender? That’s a bit far fetched don’t you think. You are going a long way to avoid my argument.

Also, quoting what sexism is from the dictionary, isn’t the same as understanding what it is. I was asking you if you understood. Because this is a pretty blatant case where women are shoehorned into a negative stereotype. You can’t go more blatant than that.

except that the reporter gets taught how to protect herself, win some battles and saves some other people sometimes. She is not portrayed as dumb (where did you get that? Did you even watch the thing?) and guess what, when met with an armed force MOST women ARE weak. Most don’t practice martial arts and don’t carry guns with them. Even on the physical point of view women are born with less muscle mass. So well done. You want to create an artificial reality where all women would be stronger than men by far, because otherwise it’s “sexist”.
And no, judging by the discussion you don’t understand what sexism is.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

The trick is to write them as characters first. Gender should be irrelevant. A character is not defined by his/her gender. That is why thinking from the “pretty girl” perspective is such a flawed idea. That’s not how you write compelling characters.

And when the case comes to Lara she is certainly not a “pretty” girl first. But you haven’t played the game, so you didn’t see her overcoming her fears, trying not to break under pressure while being pressured to live up to her father, trying her best to save her friends and pushing trough the pain.
Also when talking about “how would you feel if a woman was constantly saving men” you know who did that? Lara. In Lara Croft games most of the people that she saves are males. But you’re as bias as you can be. After all it’s easy to pick up a product you never even tried and telling everyone how bad it is.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I simply recognize a shallow character when I see one. Lara Croft is one of the most overrated female characters in videogames. There’s a lot of pretentiousness that surrounds her, especially with the reboot. People just don’t seem to be able to get around the fact that she’s hot, and you’ll never write a good character that way.

oh wow. You most definitely never played the kitten game.
Stop badmouthing the industry and making women look like dumb old rags that can do nothing else but point to characters they consider pretty and say how oppressed they are. If you ever did that in Middle East you would be punched by the first woman walking past.

I don’t agree or disagree with you I mean if you really want skimpy go to scarlet blade…

Bball.9640:

I don’t agree or disagree with you I mean if you really want skimpy go to scarlet blade…

but that game has such horrid graphics

Mirta.5029:

saying that men are not being objectified is bias.

Yes it is. I’m biased.

Mirta.5029:

Even them portrayed as strong is objectifying.

That is also a stereotype yes. Not an offensive stereotype, but a stereotype none the less. I’m not offended by it, so I don’t see any reason to attack that particular one.

Mirta.5029:

All it means is assigning s strong and dominant trait. Men normally get it done to them far more often for women.

That is not true, and I would love to see you cite examples of NEGATIVE stereotypes applied to men. Because that’s what we are discussing here. Not just stereotypes in general, but negative ones. Ones that are offensive.

Mirta.5029:

You fighting for “women” is actually only hurting women. In example – if this fight was won we would get less armors. Why would you fight against our right to chose from a bigger variety?

Why would that be the end result? Wouldn’t a more logical result be less skimpy, but more practical cool looking armors?

Mirta.5029:

except that the reporter gets taught how to protect herself, win some battles and saves some other people sometimes. She is not portrayed as dumb (where did you get that? Did you even watch the thing?)

I’m talking about the 90’s TMNT show, not the new one. In the older one, she is dumb, and does get kidnapped every episode, and she doesn’t fight back. But, it was just an example of the damsel stereotype, to illustrate how persistently women are portrayed negatively in the media. There are many more examples, probably even more recent. Truth be told, it seems people are growing up and moving away from this particular negative stereotype. Its no longer as popular as it used to be.

Mirta.5029:

and guess what, when met with an armed force MOST women ARE weak. Most don’t practice martial arts and don’t carry guns with them.

Most men would not be able to deal out epic kungfu moves either, that is not the point. The point is, the difference in which both genders are portrayed. One is consistently portrayed as helpless, the other as strong. One has a negative stereotype, the other has not. This isn’t about how men and women are in reality. I think both genders would be rather weak if placed in a sudden fighting situation. But what I’m discussing is the stereotypes in media.

Mirta.5029:

And when the case comes to Lara she is certainly not a “pretty” girl first. But you haven’t played the game, so you didn’t see her overcoming her fears, trying not to break under pressure while being pressured to live up to her father, trying her best to save her friends and pushing trough the pain.

I have played it. And especially that part was pretty unconvincing and shallow. This character did not win me over for a second, and it really felt like she had been written by a male writer. Its kind of like watching Paris Hilton overcome her fears and trying not to break under pressure, and then turning into an action lady. Oh, but we see her kill someone and feel really bad for him…. and then we kill a thousand more and not a tear was shed. Even Tomb Raider Anniversary handled this better, and that was from the same studio!

Mirta.5029:

In Lara Croft games most of the people that she saves are males. But you’re as bias as you can be. After all it’s easy to pick up a product you never even tried and telling everyone how bad it is.

Eh, no. In most Lara Croft games, Lara is alone, and she shoots endangered wildlife. She doesn’t usually save anyone. Have you played the other games at all?

Mirta.5029:

oh wow. You most definitely never played the kitten game.

I have played EVERY single Tomb Raider game, and completed almost every single one of them as well. (Except for Angel of Darkness, which was abysmal, and Tomb Raider 5, which was unplayable) I think I can safely say that I probably have played a lot more Tomb Raider games than yourself. So you might want to be a bit more careful with the accusations. I even played that DLC Guardian of Light one with the top down view. And I can run through most of Tomb Raider 1 without saves, I played that game to death.

Mirta.5029:

If you ever did that in Middle East you would be punched by the first woman walking past.

Fortunately backwards laws in other countries are not a reason for me to keep my opinion to myself. They are a horrible example for the rest of us.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Rubykuby.3427:

You, too, ignore male objectification.

Yes I do. Because like I said, I pick my battles. I attack what bothers me the most. And currently, the number of cases in video games of men being objectified, is next to none (so I ignore it). While there are tons of examples of women being objectified (so I have something to say about it). And sure there are also cases of female characters that aren’t objectified, but that’s not what I’m attacking. So what does it matter?

If you feel that male objectification also needs to be attacked, then feel free to do so. But it’s not my battle. And I don’t see any reason why it should be. After all, I didn’t take any position in gender equality.

You are well aware of how inherently flawed “picking your battles” is? You want to tackle presumed sexism, and do this by focusing on one sex only. I mean what? Not only do you focus on one sex only, you don’t open your mind at all to the other sex’s problems with objectification.

Gender issues involve two genders. Tackle both genders at once, not one at a time.

edit:

Mirta.5029:

Mirta.5029:

Even them portrayed as strong is objectifying.

That is also a stereotype yes. Not an offensive stereotype, but a stereotype none the less. I’m not offended by it, so I don’t see any reason to attack that particular one.

Wow. Just wow. What kind of logic is this? “I’m not offended by people making fun of homosexuals because I’m not homosexual, so I’m not recognising there is a problem.” What on Earth? Open up your mind, and realise that the “strong” stereotype can be very harmful if you don’t fit the picture.

Rubykuby.3427:

You are well aware of how inherently flawed “picking your battles” is? You want to tackle presumed sexism, and do this by focusing on one sex only. I mean what? Not only do you focus on one sex only, you don’t open your mind at all to the other sex’s problems with objectification.

That’s not true. If males were being sterotyped in a negative way in GW2, in a way that I felt was offensive, I would most definitely be attacking that as well. Its entirely fair to focus on one gender, if you feel that that gender is getting the short end of the stick. That’s entirely what tackling sexism is about.

Rubykuby.3427:

Gender issues involve two genders. Tackle both genders at once, not one at a time.

You couldn’t be further from the truth! Gender issues generally center on one gender getting the worse deal than the other. This idea that if one gender is portrayed badly, the other one automatically should be offended as well, is NONSENSE!

Rubykuby.3427:

Wow. Just wow. What kind of logic is this? “I’m not offended by people making fun of homosexuals because I’m not homosexual, so I’m not recognising there is a problem.” What on Earth? Open up your mind, and realise that the “strong” stereotype can be very harmful if you don’t fit the picture.

How is men being portrayed as strong, a negative stereotype? You compare this to “making fun of homosexuals”? Those two comparisons are not on equal footing! One is discrimination, and the other one is a positive stereotype.

Take He-Man for example. He-Man is the classic example of the strong-man stereotype. And so is Conan btw. I find it hard to be offended by that. He-man isn’t portrayed as dumb, or being made fun of. He’s the strong male hero. Yes, its objectification, but not in an offensive way. So of course I’m not attacking that stereotype (I do recognize that it is a stereotype, but a harmless one).

You seem to imply that if a particular stereotype isn’t offensive to me personally, that I wouldn’t attack it. That’s a gross misunderstanding of my position. I would attack any offensive stereotype, if I considered it to be offensive at all.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

That is also a stereotype yes. Not an offensive stereotype, but a stereotype none the less. I’m not offended by it, so I don’t see any reason to attack that particular one.

Being attractive and sexy is an offensive stereotype?

I have more problems with this line of yours, Malafide, than your entire viewpoint: " I’m not offended by it, so I don’t see any reason to attack that particular one" paired with " I would attack any offensive stereotype, if I considered it to be offensive at all."

First, something needn’t be offensive to be harmful.

Second, you’re not the bloody centre of the world. Your judgement of offensiveness means nothing.

Both good/negative stereotypes for men,women and all races. Makes forms of entertainment more interesting. As long as it’s poking fun of those stereotypes.

I would rather live in a world with stereotypes. Then one where everyone is treated exactly the same all the time.

Onshidesigns.1069:

Both good/negative stereotypes for men,women and all races. Makes forms of entertainment more interesting. As long as it’s poking fun of those stereotypes.

Mocking stereotypes is often a good thing. As long as we realize that they ARE stereotypes, and don’t accept them as true, or normal.

Rubykuby.3427:

I have more problems with this line of yours, Malafide, than your entire viewpoint: " I’m not offended by it, so I don’t see any reason to attack that particular one" paired with " I would attack any offensive stereotype, if I considered it to be offensive at all."

First, something needn’t be offensive to be harmful.

That’s true. And depending on how harmful it is, it may be worthy of criticism.
But I think you are misunderstanding my position. See, its not my responsibility to deal with every single stereotype in the world. All I’m doing is criticizing one offensive stereotype regarding female characters, and that’s it. I feel strongly about it, so I raise my voice.

Does this mean that I don’t have an opinion about other gender issues regarding men or women? Not in the slightest, but its irrelevant.

Rubykuby.3427:

Second, you’re not the bloody centre of the world. Your judgement of offensiveness means nothing.

Yes I am. Its a well known fact that several bodies in the known universe revolve around my ego.

But whether you agree or disagree with me is entirely up to you. Just because I have some criticism regarding a negative stereotype of women, does not mean that everyone needs to hold that opinion. You seem to have trouble holding your position in light of reason, and rather than acknowledging the issue, you seem to resort to attacking the fact that I voice my disapproval of it. Don’t you think that’s a bit dishonest?

Yet you fail to see how the presumed stereotypes are related. You assume per default that one sex is always better off than the other. That’s simply not how it works. Society is more cruel than that, and neither of the sexes are ever better off. Men and women are both very much objectified in video games, but in different manners. While women are depicted as so-called sex objects as feminists will have you call them, a gazillion men are portrayed as utterly dumb characters. Do you know the jotun? Not a single female jotun can be found in the game. This may be considered unfair towards men, as they are the sole sex portrayed as such.

See there, two instances of objectification in video games. You may either tackle both at once, or focus only on women so that men are pathetically left behind. That’d be despicable. And the solution is not to ban dumb characters, or to ban sexy characters, but to permit both sexes to take on the role of dumb characters and sexy characters. Because – one way or another – the concepts “dumb” and “sexy” in characters will stay. The challenge is not to make the concepts gender-related, and focusing on one gender only is only going to make matters worse for the ignored gender.

You simply cannot take a stance for women and ignore men. That’s assuming the genders are opposing factions, while they’re not. A real-world example would be domestic violence. While the issue used to be gender-neutral, feminists took matters in their own hands and stereotyped domestic violence as harm being inflicted upon women and children by men. Resultatively, women got heaps upon heaps of government-funded help, and domestically abused men struggle in court to even be recognised as victims, let alone receive any help. This while the ratio of men/women victimised by domestic violence is approximately 50/50.

That’s what happens when you focus on one sex. Had the issue been tackled with both sexes in consideration, we would’ve been better off. I cannot stress this enough; you cannot simply ignore 50 per cent of the population when taking a stance on something. You must take both sexes into account when dealing with sexism, and see what can be done to tackle both of their issues in one go. The solution for the matter at hand? Depict more women in traditional men’s roles, and depict more men in traditional women’s roles. This can be done in one go, rather than cause an imbalance by only putting women in men’s roles, denying men of their right to be in women’s roles.

Rubykuby.3427:

Yet you fail to see how the presumed stereotypes are related. You assume per default that one sex is always better off than the other.

No I don’t. How did you arrive at this conclusion?

Rubykuby.3427:

Do you know the jotun? Not a single female jotun can be found in the game. This may be considered unfair towards men, as they are the sole sex portrayed as such.

The Jotun are an entire race of beings depicted as primitive. They are not an example of men being stereotyped. I don’t even know what a female Jotun would look like… do they even have Jotun women? Are they different from their male counter parts?

So unless this was a case of male Jotun being depicted as being more dumb than female Jotun, this isn’t a case of an offensive male stereotype. I challenge you to come up with a better example.

Rubykuby.3427:

See there, two instances of objectification in video games. You may either tackle both at once, or focus only on women so that men are pathetically left behind. That’d be despicable. And the solution is not to ban dumb characters, or to ban sexy characters, but to permit both sexes to take on the role of dumb characters and sexy characters.

Or, you know, to avoid making negative stereotypes!

Rubykuby.3427:

You simply cannot take a stance for women and ignore men.

Yes you can. If I stand up against cruelty against pandas, does that mean I’m being dishonest for not standing up against cruelty to crocodiles?

I can perfectly be offended by one particular offensive female stereotype, and call it out for being just that, without voicing my opinion on male stereotypes. That doesn’t mean I don’t have an opinion on those. No one is talking about banning anything here, so I don’t know how you arrived at that idea.

Rubykuby.3427:

A real-world example would be domestic violence. While the issue used to be gender-neutral, feminists took matters in their own hands and stereotyped domestic violence as harm being inflicted upon women and children by men. Resultatively, women got heaps upon heaps of government-funded help, and domestically abused men struggle in court to even be recognised as victims, let alone receive any help. This while the ratio of men/women victimised by domestic violence is approximately 50/50.

Lets be perfectly honest here. The majority of victims from domestic abuse ARE women. Standing up against it, doesn’t mean you are giving domestic abuse of men a free pass.

So standing up against skimpy outfits that portray women as a negative stereotype, does not mean I’m being unfair towards men. It just means I’m not focusing on that group. Maybe I don’t have an opinion about it, maybe I do. Maybe I’m just more offended by the way women are portrayed? Does it even matter? Is all this not simply distracting away from the actual argument? Why are we portraying women this way? Can’t we give them outfits that are not offensive? They can still be attractive outfits, but you don’t have to undress women down to their underwear for that.

The offensive stereotype is that solely men are depicted as incredibly dumb jotun, not women. Women aren’t depicted as dumb at all, and are left out of the picture entirely. But sure, I’ll come up with more examples. All trolls in GW2 are male. Most antagonists in video games are male (not GW2, even though all dragons are male so far as I know). Most members of evil factions are male (In GW Factions: Am Fah, Jade Brotherhood). Most monsters are male (In GW1; mursaat, afflicted, minotaurs, centaur, charr, dredge, tengu, jotun, naga, grawls, ogres and so forth). These are all evil stereotypes that feature exclusively men. You’ll notice that most of these monsters are primitive, therefore possibly strengthening the stereotype that men are primitive.

“Negative” stereotypes will remain, for there will always be a need for negative characters. We must allow both men and women to take on a role from all spectrums of negative characters, rather than limit several stereotypes to women, and several stereotypes to men. Eradicating stereotypes is not an option.

On the domestic violence topic, I suggest you educate yourself:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/sep/05/men-victims-domestic-violence
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yt5BRcsOyy0

More than 40% of domestic violence victims are male. They’re not provided with even half the support women receive.

Careful with quoting statistics Rubykuby; they’ll vary from country to country and report to report, so much that I can confidently say no-one knows true figures.
For example this report, again published in The Guardian quotes a headline figure of 80% of reported domestic violence cases being committed against women.

To drag things back on topic, there’s something that’s been niggling away at me in regards to claims that there are less skimpy outfits for female characters in the game than otherwise.
While this may be the case, I’d like to posit a few theories.
It’s widely agreed that most female characters in these kind of games probably have a man behind the controls.
And a lot of these men will like to dress their characters in scanty clothing as they like a bit of T & A.
Therefore, while there may be less skimpy outfits than more modest fare, the ones that you will see more often will be the skimpy ones.

And from my experience, this would appear to be true.

Of course, without metrics extracted from the game to back this up, I have no way of proving this to you.

One thing that isn’t beyond doubt however is the “Take me now” idling animation of human female characters. It’s why I don’t have any.

I know this. There are lies, there are big lies, and then there’s statistics. But the statistics I quoted at least showed that male victims of domestic violence aren’t merely marginal. A minister for women and equality wouldn’t show up to a radio show on the subject of domestic violence against men because that would “make it seem like male victims exist”. A feminist then went on to say that male domestic violence victimhood is limited to men complaining about having had their fists bruised when they assaulted their wives’ faces.

Rubykuby, you are presenting monsters as a male stereotype. That’s not a male stereotype. Most monsters are of undetermined gender, like say tolls, minotaurs, ettins. And regarding evil doers, it’s pretty 50/50 male and female villains. Besides, the villain is a trope, not an offensive stereotype that applies to any specific gender. Monsters also fall into the villain category. Villains can be male or female, dumb or clever. Its really not a stereotype or trope that has anything to do with the gender.

So you’ll really need to do a lot better in your examples. But you needn’t restrict yourself to just GW2. Find some offensive stereotypes of men in any game. Its easy to find them for women. Just go to a game store and look at the covers of video games. Suggestive sexualized female stereotypes are everywhere.

http://www.gamestorm.it/upload/bmx_xxx_ps2.jpg
http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2011/048/b/2/xblades_by_ingrid97-d39r6fx.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/39/Lollipop_Chainsaw_Cover_Art.png

Rubykuby.3427:

I know this. There are lies, there are big lies, and then there’s statistics. But the statistics I quoted at least showed that male victims of domestic violence aren’t merely marginal. A minister for women and equality wouldn’t show up to a radio show on the subject of domestic violence against men because that would “make it seem like male victims exist”. A feminist then went on to say that male domestic violence victimhood is limited to men complaining about having had their fists bruised when they assaulted their wives’ faces.

Having a family member who actually deals with victims of domestic abuse, I can safely tell you that you are wrong. Most of the victims are women.

Yeah right. You’re twisting facts, Malafide. Dare tell me that trolls, minotaurs and ettins aren’t male. I’ve set my game language to French for educative purposes, and have found that most monsters lack female counterparts (the French language is more strict on gender, so the noun by which monsters are labelled is often indicative for their gender).

The fact of the matter is that there’s an unbelievable gap in men taking on the role of “primitive monster” versus women taking on that role. And I dare say that being portrayed as a primitive monster is somewhat more offensive than being portrayed as a pretty doll. But I’m not arguing that. I’m arguing that this role should be taken up by women, too, to undo the male exclusivity and lessen the harmfulness. In the same manner, if men take up the role women are depicted in, the presumed offensiveness will lessen, for the discrimination on the basis of sex is taken away.

And no, I’m not going to search for other games to further prove my point. This is a GW2 forum, and I’d like to keep it that way. Any pathetic soul can come up with a giant list of examples from the huge amount of games available to supposedly prove a point, and I’m not going to be that pathetic soul.

But my point remains, the role of “monster” is almost exclusively filled in by male characters. That’s arguably sexist. And I won’t rest until misandrist woman-supporters hold their horses for a moment and see that the world isn’t exclusively misogynist, but hateful of both genders.

@Malafide: I simply do not see the negative sterotype you talk about... being attractive, sexy, free and confident is bad?
Showing a bit of skin is offensive? How? You claim to have better reasoning than those that are do not share your opinion. But sorry, I don’t see your flawless reasoning... all I see is a biased opinion, which regardless of what you say seem feminist. Granted I have not looked up the meaning of the word in details, but my interpretation of the word, makes you fit in it.

It’s fine, you can be however you wanna be. You’re entitled to your opinion, but don’t pretend your opinion is shared by a majority.
I cannot know this ofc. I cannot speak for women, besides myself and what I know from my friends. But I doubt many agree with you. You do not speak for any women, but yourself.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Mirta.5029:

Even them portrayed as strong is objectifying.

That is also a stereotype yes. Not an offensive stereotype, but a stereotype none the less. I’m not offended by it, so I don’t see any reason to attack that particular one.

Mirta.5029:

All it means is assigning s strong and dominant trait. Men normally get it done to them far more often for women.

That is not true, and I would love to see you cite examples of NEGATIVE stereotypes applied to men. Because that’s what we are discussing here. Not just stereotypes in general, but negative ones. Ones that are offensive.

Just wanted to jump in here. How is being sexualized negative? Personally, I’d love to feel sexualized. Sadly, I am not a big strong man, and am often not considered as such. Seeing strong, dominant men in media affects me similarly as women seeing slender and/or curvy women in media. The problem is not that it is a negative stereotype, the problem is this form of media breeds insecurity.

I do agree that this can be a problem, and it is hardly one-sided.

I really cannot understand the argument that skimpy armour is offensive to players. I can understand if you suggest that it breeds insecurity, in that you and/or other players feel they need to look and dress like these characters in order to feel attractive. If that is the case, it is definitely not one sided. I would love to look as attractive as many of the male characters in this game.

Rubykuby.3427:

Yeah right. You’re twisting facts, Malafide. Dare tell me that trolls, minotaurs and ettins aren’t male.

Ettins can be argued, since some of them have a male voice, but the others… you’re grasping at straws here. They are monsters, of undetermined gender. I’m wondering why you are resorting to monsters as an example… why not go after male humans, male norn, male sylvari? Male Charr perhaps? We have plenty of races that have very definitive male and female genders, and can thus be compared against each other. Seriously, monsters are a very far fetched example. I don’t thing anyone except yourself would name monsters as a male or female negative stereotype, unless they actually looked like men or women. See, a humanoid monster I can understand, but the examples you give aren’t even humanoid.

And let me ask you honestly, when you run around in GW2, are you offended by the portrayal of the monsters? Is anyone?

Rubykuby.3427:

The fact of the matter is that there’s an unbelievable gap in men taking on the role of “primitive monster” versus women taking on that role.

And even that’s not true. Medusa, harpies, succubi, are all very popular female monsters. But here’s the big difference, most of time those are portrayed in a very sexual way as well, with a strong focus on the fact that they are female. They fulfill the demon seductress trope.

Rubykuby.3427:

And no, I’m not going to search for other games to further prove my point.

I’m giving you freedom to select any game at all, to prove your point. Any game. But don’t bring monsters as an example. Bring examples of actual male characters being portrayed as an offensive stereotype, or in a highly sexualized manner. I dare you to find any examples. Seriously, the only examples I can think of are Metalgear Solid and Devil May Cry.
God of War would be kind far-fetched, if you can even call Kratos sexualized… according to many women I’ve spoken to, they don’t find him sexy.

Jemmi.6058:

Just wanted to jump in here. How is being sexualized negative? Personally, I’d love to feel sexualized.

Being sexualized isn’t offensive in itself. But consistently being portrayed none stop as a sexualized stereotype, in your underwear, THAT is offensive. When female characters are being portrayed in a videogame, showing lots of cleavage, panties and thongs, there is no mistake regarding the intention of the designer: Its there to sexualize the character.

With male characters it is slightly different, since male characters dressed like a sort of conan-like warrior in a loincloth aren’t really being portraying in any sexualized way.

Zeefa.3915:

@Malafide: I simply do not see the negative sterotype you talk about… being attractive, sexy, free and confident is bad?
Showing a bit of skin is offensive? How? You claim to have better reasoning than those that are do not share your opinion. But sorry, I don’t see your flawless reasoning… all I see is a biased opinion, which regardless of what you say seem feminist. Granted I have not looked up the meaning of the word in details, but my interpretation of the word, makes you fit in it.

Showing a bit of skin in itself isn’t offensive. But the form of the outfits is. Some of them look like fetish-wear, or the type of cosplay that would get you booted from conventions. What makes it offensive is the persistent portrayal of women in this way. Why not portray them normally, like with men?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Being sexualized isn’t offensive in itself. But consistently being portrayed none stop as a sexualized stereotype, in your underwear, THAT is offensive. When female characters are being portrayed in a videogame, showing lots of cleavage, panties and thongs, there is no mistake regarding the intention of the designer: Its there to sexualize the character.

With male characters it is slightly different, since male characters dressed like a sort of conan-like warrior in a loincloth aren’t really being portraying in any sexualized way.

I am still not sure exactly what is offensive about being sexualized. Also, not every female is sexualized.

It is obviously their intention, because sex sells. I am all for equal rights and I do not want to offend anyone, but I am struggling to find out what is exactly offensive about sexualizing a character?

The only way I can see this as offensive is if:
1. You are forced to have a sexualized female character
2. You, as a female player, are treated poorly for either a) having a sexualized character or b) not having a sexualized character
3. You feel the need to dress in real life as your character in order to fit into society?

I don’t think any of those apply. Anyway, I am open to hearing your side, so please help me understand where you are coming from.

Just wanted to pipe in on the Damsel in Distress trope…

Since April O’Neil was brought up as being a proper example, it sparked me to borrow my nephew’s boxset of the old 1987 cartoon (although I ended up watching a few episodes on youtube on my phone). Watched the first 2 seasons.

April was kidnapped 2 times.
Splinter was kidnapped 1 time.
Michelangelo once.
All 4 turtles once.
And I think a couple other people.

I never really did remember April being a total victim most of the time, mainly just a lot of quirky situations that had no direct victims like with the pizza monsters that hatched out of the microwave.

So yeah, while the trope is used alot, I’m going to bet it’s blown out of proportions even more. Sure Princess Peach is kidnapped and saved, for example, but no one mentioned how she also joins up and helps or how much butt she kicked in Super Mario RPG! Or her own games. Same with April, people remember her as a dunce, but she was simple the responsible adult that often times had to deal with the antics and situations of the turtles. Does anyone consider how she had to deal with constant burglars stealing her stuff, villains destroying her apartments while juggling a reporter/news anchor job?

As a character, she’s focused on just as much as the turtles and it isn’t in a weak, inept, save-me role despite her literally being a weak human (seriously, the turtles could rip parts of cars in half with their bare hands or with team work lift a van and hold it over their heads! they fought robot ninjas and mutants that threw cars at them! no way a woman or man could defend themselves against things like that without packing some heat…which not even the cops really did…their guns seemed to be swapped with high-tech lasers).

So there’s one decent female character in the old series, although she seems canceled out by Irma who seems dead set on marrying anything with male genitalia (or at least have such added in a hardware upgrade).

You only have to look to TV sitcoms to find negative male stereotypes. Most of the men in sitcoms are a dumb, lazy, sports fanatics, clumsy, out of shape, funny, or a gay stereotype.

In reality TV shows men are shown as gweedos, rednecks, and hillbillies.

Onshidesigns.1069:

gweedos

Jersey Shore single-handedly destroyed television for me >:(

Onshidesigns.1069:

You only have to look to TV sitcoms to find negative male stereotypes. Most of the men in sitcoms are a dumb, lazy, sports fanatics, clumsy, out of shape, funny, or a gay stereotype.

In reality TV shows men are shown as gweedos, rednecks, and hillbillies.

Of course, but the point of sitcoms is to exaggerate any and all stereotypes. That’s why you wouldn’t see me going after a show like Married with Children, since the whole point of that show is mocking stereotypes.

Earlier the point was brought up that men are portrayed at least as much in a sexualized or offensive way as women in videogames. I don’t think videogame monsters are a valid male-exclusive example to that, since the whole point of monsters is that you hate them, and want to kill them. I’m still waiting for an actual good example.

Leo G.4501:

So there’s one decent female character in the old series, although she seems canceled out by Irma who seems dead set on marrying anything with male genitalia (or at least have such added in a hardware upgrade).

Yeah, now that you mention it, Irma may have been much much worse.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Earlier the point was brought up that men are portrayed at least as much in a sexualized or offensive way as women in videogames. …. I’m still waiting for an actual good example.

I had been out of the conversation for awhile. A good example of sexualized men? Soul Calibur. The women are also very sexualized. When I played this game with my female friends they were definitely swooning over the men in the game, so I am certain that they are sexualized.

Jemmi.6058:

I had been out of the conversation for awhile. A good example of sexualized men? Soul Calibur. The women are also very sexualized. When I played this game with my female friends they were definitely swooning over the men in the game, so I am certain that they are sexualized.

Now there’s a good example. Many of my friends would definitely agree that Soul Calibur has a decent amount of sexualized male characters to balance out the sexy ladies. Lots of males with exposed chests and such. I wish more games would balance it the way Soul Calibur does. Either dress everyone normally, or make both genders attractive.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

How is men being portrayed as strong, a negative stereotype? You compare this to “making fun of homosexuals”? Those two comparisons are not on equal footing! One is discrimination, and the other one is a positive stereotype.

Take He-Man for example. He-Man is the classic example of the strong-man stereotype. And so is Conan btw. I find it hard to be offended by that. He-man isn’t portrayed as dumb, or being made fun of. He’s the strong male hero. Yes, its objectification, but not in an offensive way. So of course I’m not attacking that stereotype (I do recognize that it is a stereotype, but a harmless one).

You seem to imply that if a particular stereotype isn’t offensive to me personally, that I wouldn’t attack it. That’s a gross misunderstanding of my position. I would attack any offensive stereotype, if I considered it to be offensive at all.

He-man IS the personification of objectification of males and offensive male stereotypes. Everything about him from his personality to his appearance, and even his name express harmful stereotypes towards men. Impossibly strong, scantly clad, “Adonis of a man”. He’s a mindless brute as well, he doesn’t stop and think about anything until he is instructed to by a companion. Even as Prince Adam he’s a horrible stereotype. The character as a whole plays off of the ideal of perfection, the sexual Adonis fantasies of women, brute “me-smash” male portrayal, and just about every other male stereotype out there. You can’t honestly tell me that He-man isn’t an offensive stereotype.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Rubykuby, you are presenting monsters as a male stereotype. That’s not a male stereotype. Most monsters are of undetermined gender, like say tolls, minotaurs, ettins.

This is a pretty valid stereotype actually… depicting nearly all monster types as exclusively male states that “males are monsters”. Also, Trolls and Ettins are NOT gender-neutral, they are very well defined as humanoid male. Minotaurs in most games are Male exclusive as well, however that is not the case in GuildWars since the GuildWars Minotaurs are depicted as feral beasts, not humanoids.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Rubykuby.3427:

The fact of the matter is that there’s an unbelievable gap in men taking on the role of “primitive monster” versus women taking on that role.

And even that’s not true. Medusa, harpies, succubi, are all very popular female monsters. But here’s the big difference, most of time those are portrayed in a very sexual way as well, with a strong focus on the fact that they are female. They fulfill the demon seductress trope.

Medusa is a single entity, She is just one of the Gorgons. However, originally the Gorgon’s were depicted as just 3 sister’s thus all female. Gorgons have surfaced in various works as males as well as females.

Harpies in GW1 were depicted as primarily male, I’m actually curious as to what happened to the Male Harpies with GW2…

Succubi aren’t exclusive to female. The name “Succubus” is exclusive to female but the monster type is not. There is a male counterpart called an Incubus. They are both the same monster though, they are just referred to by separate names

Panda.1967:

Harpies in GW1 were depicted as primarily male, I’m actually curious as to what happened to the Male Harpies with GW2…

you were saying?

Besides, using animals and monsters as examples of human gender stereotypes makes absolutely no sense at all.

Tuomir.1830:

Panda.1967:

Harpies in GW1 were depicted as primarily male, I’m actually curious as to what happened to the Male Harpies with GW2…

you were saying?

Besides, using animals and monsters as examples of human gender stereotypes makes absolutely no sense at all.

I remember seeing male harpies in GW1… I could just be remembering wrong though…

Either way though, using Animals I will agree does not make any sense, but using humanoid monsters does. Especially since most humanoid monsters are personifications of human desires, fears, and emotions. The Succubus and Incubus are personifications of Lust. Ettins are personifications of Internal Conflict (the concept of an Ettin is that one head is dumb while the other is at-least mildly intelligent, while as a whole they are still a brute). Trolls, they seem to change from one source to the next, but through out most of them they are essentially mindless brutes. The Jotun are essentially Ogres which are personification of Brute Strength, they are primitive and try to solve all their problems by smashing something.

The fact that most of these are depicted as exclusively male does create harmful male stereotypes.

But this is starting to move off topic at this point.

Yes it is, so lets drag this back on topic. Why portray women in their underwear to begin with? GW2 is only a slight offender (it has only a few skimpy outfits), but other MMO’s such as Tera are much worse. Its perfectly acceptable to give your characters sexy outfits. Soul Calibur does this. Ignoring the character of Ivy, all the other characters have just sexy or normal outfits, that don’t go too far. And its equal for male and female characters. But a lot of MMO’s focus solely on dressing women in stuff that shows their cleavage and underwear, while men get decent armor. Why this fixation on female sexy parts? Can’t the videogame industry get over it already?

What I’m trying to say is, you can dress a character in something attractive, and still remain tasteful. Some of the new town clothes added to the gem store (which don’t seem to be on the wiki yet) look a bit provocative, but in a tasteful way.

But something like this:

http://www.multiplayergames.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Screen-shot-2010-07-05-at-11.11.08-PM.png

Yes, that’s offensive. And I know what you’re thinking, “that’s way worse than any of the outfits in GW2”, and you’d be right. But what I oppose is not just the whole idea of these sort of outfits, but the whole trend to constantly portray female characters in this way. I’m not against more armor choices… but tasteful choices please?

Mad Queen Malafide: Why this fixation on female sexy parts? Can’t the videogame industry get over it already?

Why do women focus on certain male body parts? Women obsess over guys just as much and men do.

The video game industry is just like the movie, or music industry. They both give men and women what they want in the opposite sex.

You talk about women in Tera, but you haven’t looked at the male armor in the game.

And to re-iterate, while skimpy options exist in MMOs, even if they don’t make up the majority of styles, they WILL be the ones used by a large percentage of the male population on their female characters.

And while there may be some women who don’t find the skimpy outfits offensive and degrading, a lot of women will.

Quite a few of these women may choose not to buy the game as they may perceive it to be populated by over-sexed men-children who like nothing more to ogle scantily clad “babes”.

So in including these skimpy outfits, developers are ostracising a large potential customer base.

Sexism and pandering to the male gaze isn’t just ignorant.
It’s bad business.

Mungrul.9358:

WILL be the ones used by a large percentage of the male population on their female characters.

If this was true every male playing a female character. Would always be in their underwear in the cities.

Most guys who play girls in games do not want the look at a ugly guy. They are not obsessing over over their character like it’s porn.

That’s why I qualified the statement with “large percentage”. I didn’t say “all” or “every” as you imply.
But please, continue using straw man arguments.

Mungrul.9358:

That’s why I qualified the statement with “large percentage”. I didn’t say “all” or “every” as you imply.
But please, continue using straw man arguments.

Butt capes are the reason why you see so many female character wearing the same medium armor.

Mungrul.9358:

That’s why I qualified the statement with “large percentage”. I didn’t say “all” or “every” as you imply.
But please, continue using straw man arguments.

You can’t honestly quantify “large percentage” or “most” into either of the two categories you listed. There is no valid way to get accurate statistics, even in general quantification, into these categories either. However, the odds are that a larger percentage don’t fit your categories.

Out of the people I know and various people I’ve met and asked in game, (which by no means equates to any representation of the majority population,) male gamer’s that play female characters don’t choose outfits based on what is “sexy” or the “skimpiest” but rather on what looks best on that character and fits the perceived personality of that character.

You have to remember, MMORPGs attract a lot of role-players. Role-players don’t typically objectify either gender, except for on rare occasions when a character is created for the sole purpose of being objectified, and the personality revolves around that too. Usually such character’s are meant more for fun and humor more than anything else.

With my characters I have a bit of an RP element to all of them that follows through all the way to the gear they will wear at lvl 80.
Like for my elementalist, She’s the only one of my character’s who is a descendant of one of my GW1 characters. As such, she follows a family tradition and blood line of proficiency in Fire Magics. Her personality has her drawn to cute things, she even styles her hair in a cute fashion (side ponytail). The armor she’s going to wear at 80 is Human T3 cultural, no shoulders. (Personally I think the armor is cute. It’s most certainly a lot cuter than all the other light armors to me anyway.)

My necromancer, she’s a Sylvari, her personality is quite a bit more rough than the rest of my characters. Like many others, I feel the Sylvari cultural armors are the best fit for them. Her armor is T1 Cultural with T2 Cultural Gloves & Boots. If a Sylvari cultural-style armor existed that better suit the image for her that I had then I’d wear it instead, but until such a day comes that such armor is added she shall wear this instead.

RP reasons for wearing certain armors aside… while playing today on my elementalist I noticed something that bugged the hell out of me… I havn’t gotten her up to lvl 80 yet so she’s not wearing T3 yet, instead she’s currently wearing Cabalist… and for some reason she grows like 4 cup sizes wearing that armor… Upon noticing that I went through previewing a lot of Light armors to see if it was just that one armor, and to my surprise, a lot of the armors enhance your breast size. Personally, I find THAT offensive. I picked the body type that fit me, which was one of the ones with rather small breasts. Why should my armor give me huge breasts? Revealing armor I’m OK with, but breast enhancing armor is irate and offensive.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

GW2 is only a slight offender (it has only a few skimpy outfits),

Then GW2 is not an offender

I am offended that some people think that only guys like skimpy armor. I think a lot of skimpy armor is cute or pretty and I know a lot of other girls are with me on that.

Malafide… I agree the new townsclothes are somewhat nice… but it seriously is not what some of us want. It would be cool as an option for armor, definitely. But I don’t think it should exclude the skimpy armors.

I agree with Panda on the breast enhancing… that is not cool (although I sort of like it on my sylvari as sylvari seems to be stuck with small breasts all together.)

geeze, people, as has been pointed out many times previously?

just give us the CHOICES. some of my characters love dressing girly and skimpy, and some won’t. they’re all females, because i’m female.

and sometimes i love dressing all girly and skimpy, and sometimes i don’t.

the issue is choices. that’s all.

Must bring chaos gloves and destoyer gloves, I am glad that weapons made it into the game, but gloves is a must!

Also, please have more skimpy female armor =p I think there is plenty of conservative armor in game.

In addition we need better staff skins, so badly!

I only wish they would change the arah female armor back to the way it was before.