Guild Wars 2

Being Stealth and using this to finish people needs to go.

Couple this with Quickness (Doubles the speed execution of skills, including Finish Them!) = Impossible to deal with.

I can deal with the OP nature of a Thief being able to virtually one shot you from Stealth with a combination of moves that can be triggered in 1 second, but being able to Stealth and Finish Them!………please review this.

I highly support this suggestion. It’s really unbalanced that a thief can finish someone in stealthed mode.

It goes against the very purpose of having the downed-state to begin with (having a second chance). Finishing an opponent whilst stealthed offers the downed player no 2nd chance whatsoever.

Highly unbalanced when you consider that no other profession can do this.

Agreed, and Quickness should not affect Finish either. The whole point of the finishing move is that it takes time and can be interrupted. Stealth and Quickness remove the ability to interrupt the finish, granting an unfair advantage.

it really is a strong feature of thief profession, but other professions can get same results with stability, and eles can do it with mistform, so i wouldn’t say its unbalanced.

Have you tried using aoe knockbacks and ressing downed player? Not every profession has that but i dont think this game is balanced around 1v1.

How would you guys deal with it? simply remove “finish them” button while thief is stealthed or…?

Nope. When executing finish stealth would be removed instantly instead of at the end of the finish. The same could apply to stability and mistform if its really possible with those as well. Any sort of skill that quickens or empowers the finish should not be usable with it.

Ummmm NO, Thief’s can be downed by another player in downed. We need stealth, if we didn’t have it we could just Quickness>Heartseeker spam which kills about 1 sec more than the “FINISH HIM” animation

Well i agree on the quickness part, it should only improve the speed of weapon and utility skills, not stomping.
The problem is, whenever i see organized teams playing paid tournies it’s these small things like mistform stomps and stealth stomps that matter in the end. I was watching this team streaming yesterday and their opponents couldnt kill even one of them because they were so well coordinated with ressurects and control over players who tried to stomp their teammates.

I dunno, stealthing is kind of the thief’s thing. So I’d be hesitant in suggesting to get rid of that functionality. However I do think that the FINISH THEM functionality shouldn’t be able to be affected in any way by any class.

Indeed, you should not be able to finish in stealth, and quickness should not affect the finish movement. But the thief class being OP is nothing new, it’s just the same than stealth classes in most if not all other MMOs which have them.

A: FINISH HIM should not be affected by speed boosts, and B; I absolutely agree it should drop stealth. Downed state, as said, is suppose to be a second chance. A thief going stealth and using it is giving you no second chance since all the AoE knockbacks take to long to charge once in downed state. Now if I could drop my first AoE knockback before he speared me I would say whatever because at least then I still have a chance. The only other option I see to make that fair is to give every class the option to move in downed state. Since that is what makes it over-powered is that if you can’t move away from the theif you get killed by him with no second chance.

I admit stealth classes are OP against clueless players in all mmos, nothing new there tbh. I just wish people would step up their game and realize that they are easily countered, it would make their playtime more enjoyable

Disagree since so many theif abilities is around stealth, its usually impossible to deal with stomping anyway.

I have no problem otherwise against thiefs, but the moment I go down I have no second chance against them but if they go down they still have a second chance against me. How is that balanced? To me that says they have the unfair advantage since the battle can end at downed state for me and not them.

but it is not over for you, do you have teammates? This game was balanced as a team game, lot of class mechanics are here to supplement other classes. Downed state is in the game to give you a fighting chance until one of your teammates gets you on your feet. key word: teamplay

Thieves use stealth, it’s part of the class. If you want to nerf thieves here, where would you buff them to compensate?

Well next time you have a team around you while a thief/mesmer is doing this make sure to post on the forums that they succeeded in saving you. Since I know I have been in many teams situations and very rarely can they save you since it requires an AoE and/or NON-targetable interrupt to break the animation and that isn’t on every spec out there. They need to make a way for you to have a chance rather then only requiring one Mesmer or Theif to be around when you go down to ensure it. And being as those are to more commonly seen classes in WvW and PvP it is saying quite a lot.

Stealth is a good mechanic and honestly ANet has done very well with it, but certain things tend to be bad for balance and this tends to be one of them. This isn’t saying kill everything about stealth, it is saying make FINISH HIM! drop stealth like it honestly should since otherwise something that is suppose to give someone a second chance is thus just a no chance system against two of eight classes unless your three of eight classes that have movement while downed. (Which only the Mesmer and Ele really have a dependable escape.)

That is why people are complaining about it. Two classes have a dependable stealth, with one being built around it. If you want to be able to kill someone in stealth in downed state then you should have to use skills not just FINISH HIM! which would even out the playing field in my opinion.

I agree that stealth shouldn’t effect the player delivering the killing blow. Stealth is supposed to wear off the moment you initiate an attack anyway, so having it still work on your character during a finisher doesn’t make sense. I also support the idea on quickness not working on finishers, for the reason previously mentioned of the mechanic purposely taking awhile to allow countering.

cova.8264:

Downed state is in the game to give you a fighting chance until one of your teammates gets you on your feet.

What exactly is the “fighting chance” when you’re finished from stealth?
Some people just seem to read “stealth needs to go” and start crying about nerf compensations…

What exactly is the “fighting chance” when you’re finished from stealth?
Some people just seem to read “stealth needs to go” and start crying about nerf compensations…

No one is doing that. This topic is about removing stealth from finishing players. If you interpenetrated a post in any way other than that, you read wrong.

Hmmm… yeah. Thieves use stealth for many things, including stomping. If you want to nerf our stealth stomping, I’d love to hear your ideas for buffs to balance it out.

@iruwen
I dont have much spvp experience (around 100 games played since i got the game 2 weeks ago) but lot of times when i got downed, my teammates came to me, used their aoe interrupts and knockdowns and simply revived me. While i’m on my p/d thief, i got knocked down so many times while i tried to stomp from stealth it’s not even funny.
The thing is, stealth stomping has its counters, its just that you are requried to be out of zergy mentality that 95% of spvp players seem to be stuck in, including you

“it really is a strong feature of thief profession, but other professions can get same results with stability, and eles can do it with mistform, so i wouldn’t say its unbalanced.”

I’d have few problems with the thief’s stealth stomp if it wasn’t 1) a guarranteed kill that few other professions can get and 2) disabling a lot of people’s ability to use their special. I know the warrior and engineer’s only down skill disable require a target or auto MISS. So even if you’re in my face, I can’t guess fire at your like I normally could.

Also, even though I use quickness a lot for it, I’d support making it not active on stomp either.

“Hmmm… yeah. Thieves use stealth for many things, including stomping. If you want to nerf our stealth stomping, I’d love to hear your ideas for buffs to balance it out.”

Dropping the thief from “idiotically stupidly powerful” to “regularly stupidly powerful” doesn’t need to be justified. . .

GADefence which class are you playing?
stealth stomp is the same as stability stomp, only difference between the 2 is that you cannot get knocked down when you have stability on you. the only 2 classes that don’t have stability on (regular,not elite) utility skills are necro and thief.

Just so you know, skills that knokback, specially those that can hit multiple enemies, can be used to push the thief away even when they are cloaked.

Stealth only prevents detection and targeting. Nothing else.

You can still hit them with skills, even with targeted skills if you place yourself properly. I can’t count how many times I’ve pushed away a thief trying to stealth-finish with a longbow as a ranger.

Now, Quickness is a different thing, specially along stability and skills that grant immunity to damage.

While under Quickness and/or skills that provide any sort of Invulnerability, you should not be able to Finish someone. They last little enough for you to be able to wait until they finish to use them, while you hit the enemy so they don’t recover.

cova.8264:

it really is a strong feature of thief profession, but other professions can get same results with stability, and eles can do it with mistform, so i wouldn’t say its unbalanced.

Have you tried using aoe knockbacks and ressing downed player? Not every profession has that but i dont think this game is balanced around 1v1.

How would you guys deal with it? simply remove “finish them” button while thief is stealthed or…?

Thief can also benefit from stability including all the above.

cova.8264:

@iruwen
I dont have much spvp experience (around 100 games played since i got the game 2 weeks ago) but lot of times when i got downed, my teammates came to me, used their aoe interrupts and knockdowns and simply revived me. While i’m on my p/d thief, i got knocked down so many times while i tried to stomp from stealth it’s not even funny.
The thing is, stealth stomping has its counters, its just that you are requried to be out of zergy mentality that 95% of spvp players seem to be stuck in, including you

One word, stability.

I agree with this , the finish should be EXACTLY the same to all chars , so no buff that could in anyway affect it , should be allowed during it.

Dont think thieves can 1shot you anymore with the recent Assassin signet nerf but stealth finishers are a little unfair (I play thief and I notice it)

Really? All the ways to down and you single out the thief? What about Elixer S Engineer. Invulnerable, unprintable and so can’t even be hurt by your team.

I disagree with this thread.
The OP is being very biased.

Most professions have Quickness.
Those that don’t, usually have great AoE and kill 2 and 3 players at the same time -_-
Most professions have some form of damage reduction/prevention, such as mist form, endure pain, obsidian flesh, stealth, aegis/protection, stability.

If the Thief spends Stealth AND Quickness just to finish you off, then he absolutely deserves to finish you off.

Nurvus.2891:

I disagree with this thread.
The OP is being very biased.

Most professions have Quickness.
Those that don’t, usually have great AoE and kill 2 and 3 players at the same time -_-
Most professions have some form of damage reduction/prevention, such as mist form, endure pain, obsidian flesh, stealth, aegis/protection, stability.

If the Thief spends Stealth AND Quickness just to finish you off, then he absolutely deserves to finish you off.

How about you think of all the other possibilties that don’t involve the Thief using his own cool downs and getting the benefit from someone else/consumables/item procs.

"

I disagree with this thread.
The OP is being very biased.

Quickness is available to most professions.
Most professions have some form of damage reduction/prevention, such as mist form, stealth, aegis/protection, stability, etc.

If the Thief spends Stealth AND Quickness just to finish you off, then he absolutely deserves to finish you off."

As of right now, quickness I agree. If you spent it and stealth to get a stomp off you deserve it.

Granted I think it should be taken out in generally due to the lol’ it causes when someone’s downed. The reason people hate stealth is since thiefs have a lot of damange potential, survivability, ease of use, seeking skills, and generally easy and powerful abilities + enough stealth abilities it’s very rare they won’t have it off CD when they need to stomp.

Most classes with “quickness” don’t get multiple 3 seconds every 20 seconds. They usually get 4-5 seconds every minute or such.

NinjaEd.3946:

Dont think thieves can 1shot you anymore with the recent Assassin signet nerf but stealth finishers are a little unfair (I play thief and I notice it)

Learn the new build.

You are downed instantly from stealth, you get one maybe two downed abilities off, Thief invis → dead.

taemek i never said thief doesn’t benefit from stability and that he can never get knocked back while stomping.
But if you get downed by a thief and he recieves stability from guardian for example, then he is a fool to even waste initiative on stealth since he can stomp you without it.
Why are just going in circles now. Stealth stomping isn’t a problem because there are more reliable ways to get a stomp off. The only thing devs need to look at is quickened stomps, and if they see fit they should change it. simple as that

cova.8264:

taemek i never said thief doesn’t benefit from stability and that he can never get knocked back while stomping.
But if you get downed by a thief and he recieves stability from guardian for example, then he is a fool to even waste initiative on stealth since he can stomp you without it.
Why are just going in circles now. Stealth stomping isn’t a problem because there are more reliable ways to get a stomp off. The only thing devs need to look at is quickened stomps, and if they see fit they should change it. simple as that

The issue with Stealth stomping is the fact that you cannot execute any downed state abilities.

No target, no skill usage.

Stealth is easily replenished and in most cases, depending on spec, almost limitless.

you can use skills, you just dont see the target, bad thieves will badly position themself, use that to your advantage.
its the same(well not exactly the same, but similiar) as in normal state, you cannot see the thief but you sure as hell can hit him with your aoe and even normal single target skills

First of all, I’d like to get something straight:
- Downed state isn’t exactly interesting right now, specially when you get a small period of immunity between “standing” and “downed”.
- Taking 5 seconds to go from 100% to 0%, and then another 5 seconds to be defeated is ridiculous. You should have less health when downed, but able to heal faster (still interrupted by damage).
- You should not recover with 50% of your health when you rally. That’s just ridiculous…
- Give Downed, Knocked Down and Launched states a way to make use of your Endurance to roll/safe fall.

Taemek.1602:

How about you think of all the other possibilties that don’t involve the Thief using his own cool downs and getting the benefit from someone else/consumables/item procs.

Do you realize how biased that sounds?

Every profession can benefit from other professions.
Yet I don’t see anyone requesting that Obsidian Flesh or Endure Pain can’t be used while attempting to finish someone off.
Nor should such request be accepted.

We’re talking about what each profession can do on its own.

All professions have some way to cover themselves while attempting to finish someone off, from immunity (mist form, obsidian flesh, distortion), to damage reduction/prevention (aegis, protection), or even control (aoe fear/chill, etc).

Other professions can benefit from rogue, through Combo Field: Smoke, wich gives stealth/blindness, depending on the Finisher.

Thief isn’t exactly tanky, and doesn’t exactly have alot of Combat Finisher: Blast to give itself Stealth during its own Combo Field: Smoke.

The only means for thief to avoid damage are often tied to damage skills that specifically cause evasion, or to blindness.

So, to finish someone off, only stealth remains.
—-

Essentially, if you think it’s frustrating that someone can finish you off effectively, imagine how frustrating it is when you are unable to finish someone off.

cova.8264:

you can use skills, you just dont see the target, bad thieves will badly position themself, use that to your advantage.
its the same(well not exactly the same, but similiar) as in normal state, you cannot see the thief but you sure as hell can hit him with your aoe and even normal single target skills

Negative, red bold writing splashes across the screen telling you, no target, cannot use blah blah blah.

The only skill you can use without a target while downed is your heal and guess what, no use to you on a Stealthed Finish move.

Nurvus, ^.

Taemek.1602:

The only skill you can use without a target while downed is your heal and guess what, no use to you on a Stealthed Finish move.

Nurvus, ^.

Healing yourself isn’t useful against anyone doing a finisher unless you’re really kitten close to rallying already. Just sayin’.

Archmortal.1027:

Taemek.1602:

The only skill you can use without a target while downed is your heal and guess what, no use to you on a Stealthed Finish move.

Nurvus, ^.

Healing yourself isn’t useful against anyone doing a finisher unless you’re really kitten close to rallying already. Just sayin’.

Not the point, but ok.

BrunoBRS.5178:

oh look, it’s more thief QQ again.

sigh

When most of the games QQ revolves one class, ever wondered why?

“When most of the games QQ revolves one class, ever wondered why?”

We use basic deduction skills to answer this question.

It’s because everyone who doesn’t play that class is a stupid newb and needs to pro up and learn to pick that class.

Of course!

Taemek.1602:

BrunoBRS.5178:

oh look, it’s more thief QQ again.

sigh

When most of the games QQ revolves one class, ever wondered why?

try playing one.

every MMO is the same thing, the burst class gets tons of whining.

oh and keep in mind that most classes have some access to stability or invulnerability to use when stomping. thieves only get stealth, which can still be punished with AoEs (ohai guardian #2, teammates with knockbacks).

Taemek, the only way you should ever be able to recover from Downed against a Standing player, is by downing him first.
The only exception would be having someone helping you.
Aegis, Blindness, etc.

This really is a QQ thread.

If you are downed the chances of survival is already extremely low… And chances are you are going to be finished or damaged to death with or without stealthed finish or quickened finishing move.

I disagree completely with removing stealth from a single act that will be completed anyhow in 99% of the time.

Finishing someone most of the time puts the player in a vulnerable state, due to the long time and the nature of zergs.

If you cannot handle the 1 on 1 element, stop trying to play one on one. Stop over extending to allow the enemy to down you and finish you. Play in groups so your groups can easily see you are downed and rush to assist, and AoE knockback whether they can see the thief or not.

Anyone really finding themself in this situation serves the outcome. Be a smarter player and use teamwork.

“If you cannot handle the 1 on 1 element, stop trying to play one on one. Stop over extending to allow the enemy to down you and finish you. Play in groups so your groups can easily see you are downed and rush to assist, and AoE knockback whether they can see the thief or not.”

You do realize 90% of the complaints here come from 8v8 sPvP and not thiefs stealth stomping in WvW, right?

GADefence.5634:

“If you cannot handle the 1 on 1 element, stop trying to play one on one. Stop over extending to allow the enemy to down you and finish you. Play in groups so your groups can easily see you are downed and rush to assist, and AoE knockback whether they can see the thief or not.”

You do realize 90% of the complaints here come from 8v8 sPvP and not thiefs stealth stomping in WvW, right?

the point stands? 8v8 means you have 7 teammates you should be sticking with, because, you know, there are only 3 points to worry about, so you shouldn’t stay alone.

Other classes can stomp people while invulnerable. While stealthed, you can still be knocked away, knocked down, or interrupted.

There is nothing wrong with stealth stomping, and usually the thief has to be careful when doing it too.