Guild Wars 2

You must have posted this while I was in the middle of writing number 2 up XD

Yeah, I’d much prefer skill upgrades to a gear progression.

1) Upgrading Skills and Skill Mastery

2) Hunting New Skills and Weapon Skill Loadouts

I 100% agree with this. However, it should be still focused to what a weapon is meant to do. For example, greatswords should still focus on brute damage over maneuverability. Or rather, they should focus that way. -_- Ranger GS.

Anyways, the variation should be limited, to ensure a weapon is always able to enforce it’s specific purpose, such as damage and CC conditions on a Necro scepter. However, i also believe that variation should move to even new skills as long as they forfill slimier role to the alternatives. At the vary least we should be able to fine tune our skill bars to our playstyles.

Absolutely, Iarkrad.
The skill variants should all remain faithful to the concept of that specific weapon-profession combo.

Taking that into account, I think the 4 variations I suggested fit well.

TheDaiBish.9735:

You must have posted this while I was in the middle of writing number 2 up XD

Yeah, I’d much prefer skill upgrades to a gear progression.

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1) Upgrading Skills and Skill Mastery

2) Hunting New Skills and Weapon Skill Loadouts

I saw your thread about upgrading skills and the idea is similar to mine indeed, except for the part of stacking upgrades, wich I don’t really agree.
Stacking goes against variety, because in the end you have all the upgrades anyway.

Nurvus.2891:

TheDaiBish.9735:

You must have posted this while I was in the middle of writing number 2 up XD

Yeah, I’d much prefer skill upgrades to a gear progression.

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1) Upgrading Skills and Skill Mastery

2) Hunting New Skills and Weapon Skill Loadouts

I saw your thread about upgrading skills and the idea is similar to mine indeed, except for the part of stacking upgrades, wich I don’t really agree.
Stacking goes against variety, because in the end you have all the upgrades anyway.

Yeah, it was more of a suggestion to go in tandem with unlocking and hunting new skills, as opposed to it being a stand-alone suggestion.

I just read your notes, and I can see your point, and I agree that choosing between an upgrade as opposed to stacking upgrades would allow for far more choice and customisation for your build and play style as opposed to just having that many upgrades at a time (since once you get to max there’s no improvement, whereas you can pick a new upgrade if you mix your playstyle).

I’ll add that you can only apply 1 Variant at a time, in case anyone misses that

absolutly brilliant idea. Love it.

I like this idea but I think it would be better if they just expanded on the existing trait system.

This is a great idea as it offers variety without overall power increase. It would be great to have an option to choose a condition based skill to slot instead of a direct damage skill as a variant for example. Like if Thief skill death blossom had an alternative that dealt poison instead of bleed or direct damage but without the evasion. Variety would be a welcome change.

Conncept.7638:

I like this idea but I think it would be better if they just expanded on the existing trait system.

How about both?
:)

I made a suggestion on Traits as well – Elite Traits and Superior Traits.
Elite Traits have a Minor and Major slot, and let you pick a Trait of the same type from any Tree.
Superior Traits is more about splitting traits into 3 strengths, because some Major traits suck, and some Minor traits are way too good.
Finally, I also suggest there that the Trait line bonuses should be more interesting.
+Power is boring.
+Boon Duration is interesting – all Trait line bonuses should be stuff like this.

Original Topic here:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Traits-Superior-Elite-Stats/first#post608173

Smells like D3… not that i couldnt live with something like this

D3 smells like other games too.

The difference is that in GW2, that system would have an infinitely better result.
Easy to implement and balance, and gives the game an insane amount of variety.

The fun of these types of threads is speculating on possible variants. Beyond the example made, what other types of variant skills are we talking about?

Healing Skills – Warrior’s Healing Surge
Grants 10 Adrenaline and Heals more based on your Stage of Adrenaline

• No variant – default effect
• Variant #1 – Build more adrenaline but less base healing
• Variant #2 – Heal more per Stage of Adrenaline but give less adrenaline
• Variant #3 – Can’t move while activating but grant Fury (X s) at the end.
• Variant #4 – Heal 1 condition per Stage of Adrenaline instead of extra healing.

Utility Skills – Ranger’s Lightning Reflexes
Evade back with a crack of lightning, dealing damage and gaining vigor.

• No variant – current effect
• Variant #1 – No Vigor but more damage.
• Variant #2 – Evade forward instead of backward.
• Variant #3 – More vigor but less damage.
• Variant #4 – Causes weakness on nearby enemies instead of granting Vigor.

Elite Skills – Elementalist’s Glyph of Elementals
Summon an elemental based on your attunement.
- Fire Elemental: Deals damage.
- Ice Elemental: Deals damage and heals.
- Air Elemental: Deals damage and stuns.
- Earth Elemental: Deals damage and is hard to kill.
Duration: 60 s
Range: 1,200

• No Variant – current effect
• Variant #1 – Reduce duration but cause Elementals to apply an effect on hit:
  - Fire – Burning (1 s)
  - Ice – Chill (1 s)
  - Air – Bleeding (X s)
  - Earth – Weakness (1 s)
• Variant #2 – Reduce duration but increase damage dealt by Elementalist while Elemental is alive.
• Variant #3 – Reduce duration but gain a Command for each Elemental.
• Variant #4 – Increase duration but can’t move while activating skill.

I’m thinking variants should simply be better than not having a variant.
However, among the various Variants, they should be balanced.

Iarkrad.8415:

Anyways, the variation should be limited, to ensure a weapon is always able to enforce it’s specific purpose, such as damage and CC conditions on a Necro scepter. However, i also believe that variation should move to even new skills as long as they forfill slimier role to the alternatives. At the vary least we should be able to fine tune our skill bars to our playstyles.

I disagree with the underlined bit.
I think that currently, Trait choice is too tied to specific Weapons, wich kind of defeats the purpose of customizability.

Giving -some- Greatsword skills Burning, would make it a possible weapon for both Zeal and Radiance builds.

Ofcourse, weapons that focus on condition damage, might get variants that exploit that further, but I think forcing 1 weapon to be the “normal damage” or “condition damage” is a bad idea.

At this point I’m pretty sure the skill variants should be stronger than the original skill – but just a little.
So not all drawbacks suggested in this thread would need to apply.

Great idea , but i think 4 variants for every skill would be too much , anet will never do that. If reduced to weapon skills only maybe , otherwise 2 would be enough.
They could start with 2 variants for each weapon skill and expand on that in the future.
I disagree that they should be stronger than the normal skills , then we would have an unbalanced mess of classes and that should be the most important aspect to be considered with such ideas.

I like this; it gives a new progression system but doesn’t increase overall power of any given build (or not by a lot anyway). It suits the design philosophy for GW2 very well.

Sacros, sure it could start as 2 variants and slowly expand.
Maybe it could vary from skill to skill – some would have 2, others 4, others 3.

The thing about the variants being stronger than the original skill, simply mean unlocking all skills is a goal, after wich you can start unlocking “slightly” better versions of those skills – the variants.

The variants wouldn’t be much better. A +5% damage increase, or applying a 1s Burn, or replacing A with B, small things, but slightly better nevertheless.

You easily get the baseline skill, but then you have 2-4 branches of specialization.

Yes I know what you mean but keep in mind that no matter how stronger the variants are than the original , it means more work for anet regarding balancing. So why would they even risk to make these changes when the outcome is a more unbalanced game?
I welcome and like your idea and would love if anet considers something like this to be implemented , but we have to be realistic. People always come with great ideas but we don’t even know if those threads are being read by the devs , sadly. There was a thread about the same issue with a guy creating a complete new skill system with new skills for each slot you could choose from , now it vanished like it has never existed before.

The communication between anet and us players is grose , it’s like they only reply to things already planned. If some of the devs reads this please reply , just that we know we are not writing in vain.

Why would the outcome be more unbalanced gameplay?
Both the offensive and the defensive skills would have variants, so it’s not like damage dealing or survival would be getting ahead of the other.

Because every change needs balancing and there needs to be a major reason why anet should go into it. If we take the idea with variants not being stronger than the normal skill , then it would balance out itself because no change would’ve been made that makes one class superior to another. The power of the skill doesn’t change so there won’t be people whining about one skill being op etc…
On the other hand we can do what you say but I think anet would adore the simplified solution more.

Oh, but that comes with every little change.
Even adding 1 skill can cause a ripple that changes the whole metagame.

So careful and well-planned changes are a must.
—-

Anyway, the variants don’t have to be stronger.
I just think it’d be a nice way to make the skill progression have more of an impact, without being too strong.

But yeah, I agree maybe it’s safer to introduce variants based on tradeoffs rather than improvements.

A note, though – ANet just added Ascended gear to the game, wich – since the offensive stats interact by multiplying each others’ effectiveness, and offensive stats are usually 2/3 of your gear – makes the game move towards more damage being dealt.
But more damage being dealt, makes toughness, vigor, blocking, aegis, blindness and protection more useful as well – for every profession.

Only healing gets the shaft xD

I would also bind certain variants to equipment instead of purchasing by skill points. That would encourage the loot gathering aspect of the game without vertical progression.

That doesn’t really work unless ANet predetermines X “skill sets”, wich isn’t fun at all, as you wouldn’t be customizing each skill individually, but all 5 weapon skills would change according to your gear – probably weapon.

That’s not my intention at all.
The point of this suggestion is allowing you to change each skill individually.
Example: Greatsword guardian may use burning for the trait that increases damage agaisnt burning targets by 10%; or for a condition damage build.
That means you might or not want to use condition damage gear when using that variant.

But I think the skill points thing is too boring , make them unlocked through using certain skills X times with a far longer procedure than unlocking weapon skills. Although it would be grindy it would fit the mechanics.

Wait… so using skill points that can be earned by leveling up or doing challenges is boring, but spamming skills isn’t?

Now seriously, obtaining Variants by spamming skills doesn’t really make a fun progression, imo.
Making use of the surplus skill points you get by leveling (and continue getting every certain amount XP after you reach 80) sounds pretty good.

On the matter, I think the ideal would be:
- Must have all default Skills unlocked first
- Each Variant becomes available to unlock/purchase by beating a specific enemy
- You unlock/purchase a Variant by using Skill points

So if Destroyer Harpy gives you the Burning Whirling Wrath (Guardian Greatsword), you must kill one so that you can unlock/purchase the skill with Skill points.

So the “grind” would not be that much of a grind. It’d be closer to the GW1’s skill hunt, involving exploration + combat + leveling (skill points).

Sounds good.
Had something similar in mind like monsters dropping special traits for skills and everyone had 3-4 branches where you could further improve a skill by spending skill points gained from levels.

I’d like to see something like this implemented, GW2 has some pretty good parts to it but skill diversity (which ultimately leads to a lack of the holy trinity of MMORPG roles) is not one of them which in turn feeds into some pretty trashy traits and skill mechanics (because they don’t synergize properly).

Skill hunting and having fun with different builds is what made GW1 so popular.

GW2 is losing that because:
- you pay to change traits,
- you pay loads of money for each set of equipment

There were no Stats in GW1, wich made it practical to change build, including the equipment, because you could just replace Runes in your armor, and maybe swap weapon; you could change attributes in town for free, anytime, and you’re ready for the new build.

GW success is allergic to WoW mechanics.
I just hope ANet realizes that before it’s too late.

Personally I think they should put their emphasis on new skills and variations rather than gear grind. Definately going the wrong direction with Ascended Gear , they should be listening to the old Gw 1 players not to the former WOW’lers

Sacros.7418:

Personally I think they should put their emphasis on new skills and variations rather than gear grind. Definately going the wrong direction with Ascended Gear , they should be listening to the old Gw 1 players not to the former WOW’lers

Amen.
GW2 would be a bigger success if it didn’t have ANY of the wow’ified mechanics like Lv80, gear tiers and whatnot, and went back to GW1’s progression:
- skill hunting
- skin hunting
- perfect Upgrade hunt (due to randomized Upgrade bonuses)
So a +X% damage Upgrade that goes up to 5% could drop with anywhere between 1% and 5%.
Everyone would want the 5%, but you wouldn’t feel so awful for having the 4% or even 3%.

BabelFikitten234:

I’d like to see something like this implemented, GW2 has some pretty good parts to it but skill diversity (which ultimately leads to a lack of the holy trinity of MMORPG roles) is not one of them which in turn feeds into some pretty trashy traits and skill mechanics (because they don’t synergize properly).

Well the traits can be improved if they are made to scale properly.

Given the latest changes, and now that the game is a little more seasoned, perhaps this suggestion is more relevant to the current problems the game has.

Please discuss.

Nurvus.2891:

Given the latest changes, and now that the game is a little more seasoned, perhaps this suggestion is more relevant to the current problems the game has.

Please discuss.

I like your ideas. In fact, I think they are really quite fantastic.

I just don’t think ArenaNet has any economic incentive to work in this direction. That the current system ranges from mediocre to awful matters little to the casuals who frequent this game and serve as the bulk of the revenue for the cash shop.

Wake-up call

I still think this is a viable suggestion which would help the combat become even more interesting than it is at the moment. Variety in skills is what makes players able to construct their completely unique builds and combos that noone expects, making the game more dynamic and making it a new experience every day.

@Guns and Giblets – I must say League of Legends is proof of a truly free game, where the cash shop is purely about services and vanity that does not impact the game, and due to its variety and customizability, will sell even without the concept of progression.

ANet would make more money for having a solid game system and a purely service & vanity based cash shop, than they do right now.

Changes aren’t made because they’re making alot of money now.
They should be made in order to make more money then.

I couldn’t agree more. While I appreciate and enjoy the new content, we are playing old builds in old ways. Key word here is play, meaning to figure something out as much as to explore. No matter how much new environments we get, the old abilities (let alone the less favored ones, for obvious reasons) will grow bland.

But save something for expansions I was told =p

Great idea!
+1

Foehn.2489:

I couldn’t agree more. While I appreciate and enjoy the new content, we are playing old builds in old ways. Key word here is play, meaning to figure something out as much as to explore. No matter how much new environments we get, the old abilities (let alone the less favored ones, for obvious reasons) will grow bland.

But save something for expansions I was told =p

Well, the best thing ANet can do is enrichen the game with a high degree of customizability such that players actually have TOO many builds they wanna play.

This is one way to reach it.

I would love to see a system like this, it’s the only real way in which they can fix the boredom of always using the same skills without totally revamping the system.

I have one question though. Won’t players automatically sort through builds and use the ones that are ‘great’ and leave the rest?

Another problem is the number of mechanics.
There are only a limited number of weapon ‘effects’ for lack of a better word:

conditions
- crippling
- poisoning
- bleeding
- confusion
- burning
- vulnerability

offensive
- stunning
- dazing
- immobilize
- knockdown
- knockback

combo
- jump
- blast
- line
- whirl
- projectile

defensive
- block

boons
- regeneration
- protection
- swiftness
- might
- fury
- stability

I know there are other ‘affectors’ such as fear, but there isn’t any weapon skill (as far as I know) that will apply fear. I think it will be hard to find a lot of creative weapon skills other than the ones we have at this moment. It might come down to nearly using the same skills as other professions or come to close to other weapons a class has.

Kudos for the idea, I really like the depth of customization here, but wouldn’t this become hard for an average player to use, or for developers to balance?

Don’t get me wrong, I love the idea of customizing the skills, but what if we could have more skills slot skills or more weapon skills instead of customizable skills?

I would really like to hear ANet opinions about your idea, it sounds quite interesting

@Sirendor
It’s not just the bonus, it’s also the penalty.
Losing/gaining the ability to move while using the skill, changing the direction of the skill, the skill producing a larger/smaller AoE, harder/easier to avoid, added Combo Field, added Finisher, you name it.

There are alot more mechanics you can fiddle with than you give credit for.

You can refer to my #5 suggestion for Whirling Wrath for a “creative idea” outside anything you presented.

@Mentalhead
Another Weapon Skill slot would be nice, but I’d rather have yet another idea I presented – more weapon skills per weapon/profession, and the ability to customize weapon slots like we do utility/elite slots.

I’ve presented this idea in my Expansion Concepts thread (check my signature).

Yeah I see that Nurvus, but considering you could actually select all these effects, what would stop you from making for example a guardian that has a different condition on each skill and that has maxed out condition damage? I guess it wouldn’t be bad to have that choise, but it might make some builds completely overpowered.

/Signed.

Great idea OP. I’m actually not sure why this hasn’t been implemented, seeing as there’s no loot in the game, this would serve to provide that progression feeling at end game.

Sirendor.1394:

Yeah I see that Nurvus, but considering you could actually select all these effects, what would stop you from making for example a guardian that has a different condition on each skill and that has maxed out condition damage? I guess it wouldn’t be bad to have that choise, but it might make some builds completely overpowered.

I’ve never seen a build on Burning actually able to compete, let alone be overpowered.
And I don’t see any damage condition other than Burning being available to a Guardian.

Balancing might become rather difficult with more skills, but I love the idea in general. It’s something I wish games did instead of focusing on better gear. It has a much more “real” feel to learn a new skill to increase performance than it does to obtain a better sword, for instance.

Exactly, Okuza.
Guild Wars 1 didn’t need gear tiers to hook players for a very long time.
It saddens me that ANet changed their mentality in GW2 regarding progression.