Guild Wars 2

Ohoni.6057:

I dont see the problem, all players can be equally aware of the market trends using the tools available online. Those are 1/5 of the links I have that are easily found with google. Unless you are complaining that Anet isn’t spoon feeding that mass amount of data to the players.

There are tools, and they help, but 1. The vast majority of players have no idea that they exist because they are not in engine, and 2. of those who do know that they exist, many do not know how best to use them. Again, the current market bonanza is entirely dependent on the ignorance of a large portion of the playerbase.

So you want anet to completely destroy their economy because most players are too ignorant to learn how to use the TP to make profit, Got it. your words not mine.

Ohoni.6057:

This… I just … wow.

It should come as no shock that I pick my battles where I may. I fundamentally agree that Glorious armor should be more available, but it’s not a point upon which I care so much that I would crusade on it.

But that is what blows my mind. It is the same argument and another example of skilled players having goods that unskilled players don’t have. Which sums up your main issue with TP flipping. Skilled players of the Trading post have more goods than unskilled players. On a personal note I don’t care about any skin other than for the profit it can bring me. I also got a friend who enjoys farming and just dumps his stuff to the highest bidder. This makes me mental because he’s leaving all this gold on the table for Wanze :P But that’s what he wants to do. He doesn’t give a rats behind about maximizing profit or any of that. He also doesn’t envy my in game wealth because he has his multiple gear sets and look, which allows him to just play how he wants.

Ohoni.6057:

You have some weird fixation on players who play the TP, and think they only sit at the TP npc’s and do nothing else. That’s the beauty of working the TP. You can post some buy/sell orders and go play other aspects of the game.

My point is that those other aspects of the game should offer a higher return on the time invested than playing the TP, and that when they do not, it represents a toxic element of the economy.

No, it represents a realistic element of the economy. A game cannot balance the rewards from drops with the potential to make profit off a TP without devaluing its currency to the point of nothing. It is all about the difference between rewards and profit from investment and the volume of trades on the market. The only way to control volume is to place limits on the trades people can make which would be very bad for the economy as a whole. One of the things that makes this system so good is the fact that there are so many trades every day. High velocity is good, limiting trades is bad.

Ohoni.6057:

I also dont see why an adventure game shouldnt involve trading.

Trading, yes, making money from money via trading, no. Every item sold in the TP should be an item that the seller generated himself into the world via crafting or loot. Every item purchased should be used by the person that purchases it, bought because he wanted it for his own use. Players should not be able to take gold, purchase items, then throw them back onto the market at some point at a higher rate and turn a profit.

The markets should be designed to make it easier for an adventurer to offload stuff he does not need in return for higher than vendor prices, or to find items that he wants but that would not drop for him through his adventuring play. There should not be a role for anyone in the middle of those two roles other than the TP itself.

First paragraph is all your opinion and you are welcome to it, but I and many disagree with you. Thankfully for us Anet seems to agree with us.

The second paragraph goes back to my belief that you have a very anti-capitalistic economy POV. I’m not saying that as an insult, just observation. You want the TP to purchase and offer goods at a TP regulated price. You essentially want the TP to be a higher priced vendor with all the items available. This goes against what Anet wants in their game. They want a thriving marketplace as the cornerstone of their economy.

LOL part 2

Ohoni.6057:

Yes, but there are clear distinctions to be made between flipping and “skill based adventuring.” For one thing, you can flip hundreds of gold on a single trade with flipping, or in a more casual manner dozens. There are no activities in the game itself, no matter how skilled the player, that offer even remotely similar rewards.

Volume again. They cannot “fix” this and really shouldn’t try. let me repeat myself again, A game cannot balance the rewards from drops with the potential to make profit off a TP without devaluing its currency to the point of nothing.

Ohoni.6057:

Second, of course, is that the TP is a PvP activity, the profits do not come from beating the game, it comes from beating other players, and for those that prefer the purely cooperative experience that the PvE content thrives on, this aspect is distasteful.

For every one of those people out there I say there is someone who enjoys the act of PvP and the great feeling of getting a win. Whether in sPvP or tpPvP. All the rest fall into the middle of “it doesn’t matter” to them like my friend I mentioned above.

Ohoni.6057:

I can’t believe this post is still going on :P
I think adding this might help: Most precursors sold on the TP are not to players with lots of money, they are to players that work hard at making a legendary. Players with a lot of money have that money because they don’t spend it. If they are buying precursors with it, then they don’t have it anymore. “the rich get richer” … because they don’t spend their riches. There are just so many people that want to make a legendary that the demand for precursors is higher than the supply of precursors, so their price increases.

If you have 2000g, and you spend 1500 of it on a Legendary, then you’ll be put in a tight spot on the “making money” front, with a lot less capital to invest. If you have 10Kg or 15Kg, then dropping a couple thousand on a toy isn’t likely to set you back too badly in your progress. To say that a wealthy player in the game cannot buy a few legendaries and remain wealthy is like saying that the wealthy in the real world cannot buy a yacht and remain wealthy. They can do both.

I am happy you finally acknowledged that legendary’s are luxury items like yachts. Unlike a yacht in real life though anyone can afford to craft a legendary after enough dedication to playing/grinding all aspects of this game.

So you want anet to completely destroy their economy because most players are too ignorant to learn how to use the TP to make profit, Got it. your words not mine.

At what point did I say anything about ANet “destroying their economy?”

No, it represents a realistic element of the economy. A game cannot balance the rewards from drops with the potential to make profit off a TP without devaluing its currency to the point of nothing.

Of course it can. You just have to reduce the profitability of flipping. Personally I’ve always favored making all items “bind on purchase.” (not on pick-up, just when pulled from the TP). That, combined with some better tools built directly into the interface (like having Spidy-esc elements built directly into the TP UI), could really level the playing field. Hell, at minimum they could change the default behavior from “sell at max buy order price” to “sell at minimum sell order price.”

It is all about the difference between rewards and profit from investment and the volume of trades on the market.

Yes. The profit from investment and volume of trades on the market should come nowhere near as high as the rewards from adventuring content. Not unless the game is marketed as a pure economic simulator game.

One of the things that makes this system so good is the fact that there are so many trades every day. High velocity is good, limiting trades is bad.

I don’t think there’s any reason to reduce the volume of trades, just how much you can make off of it. Another suggestion that’s been bandied about it so just put DR into the Trading Post. Make it so that the more individual trades you make, the more currency you pull in, the higher the fees associated in claiming it.

The exact method is debatable and there are a variety of places to put it, but the fundamental idea is a solid one. Let people profit off the TP, but the more profit you make, the smaller percentage of it you get to claim. Not only would it keep overall TP profits more in line with adventuring content and line it up better with all the various daily limits on adventuring rewards, but it would also be a great money sink, as instead of 15% fees, the more successful traders would be dealing with 20, 30, maybe even 50% fees.

The second paragraph goes back to my belief that you have a very anti-capitalistic economy POV.

The second paragraph is the very definition of Capitalism, that it exists to provide capital to business, so that they can provide products for people to use, who then pay money for them, which provides capital for further growth.

For every one of those people out there I say there is someone who enjoys the act of PvP and the great feeling of getting a win.

There is. Definitely. And there are other games out there for those people. They can enjoy that in EVE just as much as they can here, if not more. Just as I wouldn’t want PKs camped outside Rata Sum to gank newbs, I don’t want PKs on the GW2 marketplace. It’s perfectly valid for people to enjoy that sort of thing, but there’s a time and a place for it.

I am happy you finally acknowledged that legendary’s are luxury items like yachts. Unlike a yacht in real life though anyone can afford to craft a legendary after enough dedication to playing/grinding all aspects of this game.

They are expensive. That does not make them a luxury item. Luxury items do not exist in any form within any game, because a game is an entertainment activity. Luxury items only exist in real life, where there exist necessities and not-necessities. Every item in a game is a not-necessity, and therefor a legendary weapon is no more a luxury item than a copper ore is, it just costs a lot more.

Ohoni.6057:

Hell, at minimum they could change the default behavior from “sell at max buy order price” to “sell at minimum sell order price.”

They did exactly that with the introduction of the new TP UI. After negative feedback from the player base, they reverted that change in another patch shortly after.
It seems the mayority of the people doesnt care about the profits other people make when they sell directly. They are more interested in using 1 click less to sell their loot and get gold for it instantly.

Ohoni.6057:

snip

Thankfully, my post is right above and it will show how much you contradict yourself despite your cherry picking quotes.

They did exactly that with the introduction of the new TP UI. After negative feedback from the player base, they reverted that change in another patch shortly after.

Yeah, I wonder who wasn’t a fan of that. . .

They don’t have a mechanism for gauging what “the players” want, the best they’ve got is the forums, and they listened to the TP trolls who didn’t want normal players cutting into their margins by listing their stuff at the sell order price.

^^ You don’t have a complete picture of what mechanisms they have for gauging players’ wants unless you work at Anet. Even that wouldn’t be a guarantee of being privy to those systems or if they exist. Therefore your claim that they don’t have anything but the forums is nonsense.

Frankly, what players want is quite irrelevant. Most of the time, what players want is not in the best interests of the game. I’m willing to let Anet decide that because it’s in their best interests to make the game successful. I’m not always convinced they make the right decisions but I’m certain they do it because they believe it’s the best thing to do … unlike players.

Ohoni.6057:

They did exactly that with the introduction of the new TP UI. After negative feedback from the player base, they reverted that change in another patch shortly after.

Yeah, I wonder who wasn’t a fan of that. . .

They don’t have a mechanism for gauging what “the players” want, the best they’ve got is the forums, and they listened to the TP trolls who didn’t want normal players cutting into their margins by listing their stuff at the sell order price.

i was happy with matching the lowest listing by default as it would have been alot less clicking for me.

Ohoni.6057:

They did exactly that with the introduction of the new TP UI. After negative feedback from the player base, they reverted that change in another patch shortly after.

Yeah, I wonder who wasn’t a fan of that. . .

They don’t have a mechanism for gauging what “the players” want, the best they’ve got is the forums, and they listened to the TP trolls who didn’t want normal players cutting into their margins by listing their stuff at the sell order price.

This is absolute and obvious nonsense, the truth is that they very seldom make changes that follow what a majority of forum posters want, look at threads demanding mounts, more loot, return the SAB, reverse recent game changes, etc.

The forums represent a tiny percentage of the player base, and do not necessarily influence the devs at all. They have far more accurate tools to measure the activities and preferences of the players, and those results seldom match the rants of angry forum posters.

Ohoni.6057:

the best they’ve got is the forums, and they listened to the TP trolls

Working the TP is just as appropriate a way of playing as grinding dungeons. JS has confirmed this. I am insulted you would refer to me or wanze or smooth or aryilana or any of us as trolls. plz moderate this post like I was moderated for calling ohoni a socialist.

im a little drunk after thanksgiving dinner. thanks for your attention

I think the vehemence of the reaction that got rather proves my point.

Wanze’s point was that “the majority of the players” didn’t want the default to be the lowest sell price, and so ANet changed it. The only metric by which they could gather such data, particularly within such a short turnaround, would be by listening to people on the forums. Many of the people active on the forums that discuss the TP are the serious TP baron types, who of course would not want mechanisms that would make it easier for newbs to maximize their profits and minimize the TP baron’s margins. I mean, how profitable would the typical short term flip be if nobody ever filled buy orders unless the margins were negligible? It would be a nightmare for people who live as parasites on their fellow players, while at the same time meaning an average of 15-20% more TP gold per week for the average player.

It would make absolutely no difference in convenience or selling time, it takes no longer to place a sell order than to fill a buy order, the only difference is that it might take a little bit longer for the gold to materialize, and most players are not living so close to the margins that they absolutely need their TP returns right that minute. There is no plausible reason why the average player would not benefit from having the “sell order” price be the default option, but it would certainly upset the oligarchs.

Ohoni.6057:

The only metric by which they could gather such data, particularly within such a short turnaround, would be by listening to people on the forums.

Again, you don’t know all data they access and collect so what you say is not necessarily true. In addition, even if the only metric they used was forum feedback, you can’t be sure its related to Anet’s decision to change the TP. It may be something they had planned anyways. As you may have noticed (or not, since it’s not apparent you play), changes in MMO’s are an evolution, not a one time deal. Anet does what they feel is best for the game, it doesn’t necessarily happen all at once. There are many reasons Anet could have implemented the changes they made in the manner they did them and they aren’t necessarily linked to Forum complainers.

Case in point … if forum complainers held more sway, you would certainly have had your way with Legendaries by now.

The players who complained when the TP changed to matching low sale and not high bid were speedrunners and farmers who want to dump their loot for quick coin on the TP between runs or waves. It certainly weren’t the so called TP “Barrons” or self identified uber-flippers. Actually several of them applauded the original change and objected to the reversing it back to the “old defaults”.

I think it boils down to that if sellers are being charged for posting, most aren’t interested in taking a chance that the item doesn’t sell quickly. I know it seems crazy but it seems that a lot of players don’t want to take that risk. They want the seemingly sure thing of selling at the high bid rather than match or undercut the current low sell price and simply wait a day.

Again, you don’t know all data they access and collect so what you say is not necessarily true.

It’s true, but what data can you even reasonably posit that would allow them to know which way players preferred it within a period of weeks?

The players who complained when the TP changed to matching low sale and not high bid were speedrunners and farmers who want to dump their loot for quick coin on the TP between runs or waves.

But you can dump your loot just as quickly in high bids as in low sales, the only difference is that it takes a few more minutes, hours, or occasionally days for the money to come in, which is irrelevant to pretty much everyone.

I think it boils down to that if sellers are being charged for posting, most aren’t interested in taking a chance that the item doesn’t sell quickly. I know it seems crazy but it seems that a lot of players don’t want to take that risk. They want the seemingly sure thing of selling at the high bid rather than match or undercut the current low sell price and simply wait a day.

It seems like every other post you preach the wisdom of ANet knowing better and setting up the system that we need rather than the system that we want, and yet here you say that they would keep the system in a way that they know is worse off for the average player, just because the average player may not realize that himself.

I can think of many ways to solicit player reactions, including directly asking players.

It’s funny, you admit your wrong, then find another avenue to seek an argument on a wide open, academic question. Bottom line is that all your claims and straw grasping is made on assumptions … bad ones. Furthermore, your meandering failures to seek out pedantic arguments don’t add to any credibility you have left. I get your tactic but even if you do happen to find a single argument where no one disputes you, it still doesn’t make your ideas about how Legendaries and the economy should be any more correct. Carry on.

Ohoni.6057:

I think it boils down to that if sellers are being charged for posting, most aren’t interested in taking a chance that the item doesn’t sell quickly. I know it seems crazy but it seems that a lot of players don’t want to take that risk. They want the seemingly sure thing of selling at the high bid rather than match or undercut the current low sell price and simply wait a day.

It seems like every other post you preach the wisdom of ANet knowing better and setting up the system that we need rather than the system that we want, and yet here you say that they would keep the system in a way that they know is worse off for the average player, just because the average player may not realize that himself.

I was disagreeing to your assertion that it was the uber-flippers and TP Barons who insisted that ANet reversed the change that was beneficial to players using the TP.

I assume you are talking about my support of ANet’s choice of a laissez-faire free market for player trading. I don’t think an auction house based system would change anything in terms of prices on rare but highly in demand items. And while they control the drop/forge rate so a relatively small number of each precursor drops over time, I do not support ANet setting price caps or opening up the supply spigot. But I would be in favor of some method to reward one based on some number of hours played/number of fail on the precursor drop roll so some players aren’t extremely unlucky.

As for my take on the default pricing on the TP when you are selling I was for forcing every single player to enter a price manually, no defaults. Of course that won’t fly with the those who want to minimize the number of actions when selling, especially since for two years it was two clicks per item to sell. Next choice would be a player setting that for which of the two values should be default, one setting for selling, one for buying.

It’s funny, you admit your wrong, then find another avenue to seek an argument on a wide open, academic question. Bottom line is that all your claims and straw grasping is made on assumptions … bad ones. Furthermore, your meandering failures to seek out pedantic arguments don’t add to any credibility you have left. I get your tactic but even if you do happen to find a single argument where no one disputes you, it still doesn’t make your ideas about how Legendaries and the economy should be any more correct. Carry on.

I don’t expect there is any position that everyone agrees on. That isn’t the point.

I assume you are talking about my support of ANet’s choice of a laissez-faire free market for player trading. I don’t think an auction house based system would change anything in terms of prices on rare but highly in demand items.

Where did auction houses enter the discussion?

As for my take on the default pricing on the TP when you are selling I was for forcing every single player to enter a price manually, no defaults.

There’s no real benefit to that. The default should be the value that is best for the player.

Ohoni.6057:

The only metric by which they could gather such data, particularly within such a short turnaround, would be by listening to people on the forums.

Ohoni.6057:

Again, you don’t know all data they access and collect so what you say is not necessarily true.

It’s true, but what data can you even reasonably posit that would allow them to know which way players preferred it within a period of weeks?

Anet can track usage of the TP compared to what people vendor. I suppose they saw a huge spike in people selling to the vendor greens and blues, for convenience sake, as opposed to putting up for sale on the TP.

Ohoni.6057:

Where did auction houses enter the discussion?

In WOW the trading post was called the auction house. Just terminology, no need to quibble.

Ohoni.6057:

As for my take on the default pricing on the TP when you are selling I was for forcing every single player to enter a price manually, no defaults.

There’s no real benefit to that. The default should be the value that is best for the player.

But the philosophical question is this, what is better for the player? The highest price or the quickest sale? You cannot determine this because YOU are not privy to all the data that Anet has so don’t bother answering this because you will just be making baseless assumptions. You can have an opinion on it like you do everything else here but like many others it will be an uninformed one.

You also make the assumption that putting up a sell listing sells thing as fast as sell now option which is not true. Now we can argue all day that the time issue on most high velocity items is inconsequential, but it doesn’t change the fact that sell now is a faster return than sell listing.

Except an Auction House is a very different structure to selling goods with sellers at most having the ability to set a minimum price, it’s then up to buyers to set the “best” price by out bidding each other for it.

In a Trading Post the seller sets the one price he’s willing to accept and then the first buyer willing to meet the price gets the item.

As for what is “better”, the assumption is for the player to get, or hold on to in the case of buying, more coin. Secondary, and I’m not sure if Ohoni would think this is secondary, it would dry up the flipping market by eliminating the money players are leaving on the table by selling at high bid and buying at low sale price.

Behellagh.1468:

Except an Auction House is a very different structure to selling goods with sellers at most having the ability to set a minimum price, it’s then up to buyers to set the “best” price by out bidding each other for it.

In a Trading Post the seller sets the one price he’s willing to accept and then the first buyer willing to meet the price gets the item.

As for what is “better”, the assumption is for the player to get, or hold on to in the case of buying, more coin. Secondary, and I’m not sure if Ohoni would think this is secondary, it would dry up the flipping market by eliminating the money players are leaving on the table by selling at high bid and buying at low sale price.

Actually I misread what you were saying about auction houses and just thought you had used the wrong term there. I am fully aware of the differences between the system we have in GW2 and an auction house format, just a mistake on my part.

I dont necessarily believe that it would dry up the flipping market. It would certainly slow it down a bit and make the bots a more powerful tool. I think that the tp would be easier to manipulate with this system in place.

Simple scenario: item X has sell now price of 20c and a list price of 50c. I would list 25 at 21c let people stock up my ultra low price point and then buy them out relisting them at 49c. I really like this idea and think they should revert the change back. Is this the “best” option for people? It sure is for me.

edit: think what can be done with fine/masterwork markets.

Ohoni.6057:

Wanze’s point was that “the majority of the players” didn’t want the default to be the lowest sell price, and so ANet changed it. The only metric by which they could gather such data, particularly within such a short turnaround, would be by listening to people on the forums. Many of the people active on the forums that discuss the TP are the serious TP baron types, who of course would not want mechanisms that would make it easier for newbs to maximize their profits and minimize the TP baron’s margins. I mean, how profitable would the typical short term flip be if nobody ever filled buy orders unless the margins were negligible? It would be a nightmare for people who live as parasites on their fellow players, while at the same time meaning an average of 15-20% more TP gold per week for the average player.

It would make absolutely no difference in convenience or selling time, it takes no longer to place a sell order than to fill a buy order, the only difference is that it might take a little bit longer for the gold to materialize, and most players are not living so close to the margins that they absolutely need their TP returns right that minute. There is no plausible reason why the average player would not benefit from having the “sell order” price be the default option, but it would certainly upset the oligarchs.

Feel free to check my post history regarding the change. I always posted that i rather have the lowest listing as default or give players the option to choose, if lowest listing or highest bid will be their default sales price. If you claim that certain people advocate certain changes, please provide quotes to back it up before insulting them.

Anet can track usage of the TP compared to what people vendor. I suppose they saw a huge spike in people selling to the vendor greens and blues, for convenience sake, as opposed to putting up for sale on the TP.

Maybe, but that would be them being stupid, so it would be a cause for education, not changing the mechanic.

In WOW the trading post was called the auction house. Just terminology, no need to quibble.

Yeah, but I mean nobody suggested moving to a more WoW-like auction system, so I’m just wondering where that entire line factors into the discussion here. As much as I disagree with some of the specifics in a very fundamental way, I think that GW2’s “commodities market” system works a lot better than a direct pier-to-pier trading house mechanism.

If there was any confusion, I wasn’t suggesting that ANet should directly alter the way the buy and sell orders currently work, I was just positing that if all players were knowledgeable about the way the TP works, player behavior would shift such that buy orders almost never got filled unless the margins were negligible, and people would just end up posting sell orders instead. Still, buy orders would serve an interesting function of marking what players were willing to spend. People placing them would essentially be gambling as to where they hope they’ll get interest. Approaching a TP sale that is missing either a buy or sell price is a scary situation, because you have little idea what’s “reasonable” without those brackets.

But the philosophical question is this, what is better for the player? The highest price or the quickest sale? You cannot determine this because YOU are not privy to all the data that Anet has so don’t bother answering this because you will just be making baseless assumptions.

I have to assume that, whether most players realize it or not, higher profit is ALWAYS the best answer. I have never wanted for money for basic necessities in this game. I mean maybe for the first few levels when I wanted to get all my harvesting tools ASAP, or saving up for my Trait tomes, but they’ve removed the gold costs to the latter and made the former irrelevant for the first few levels, so I can’t see any new player ever needing money that they do not have for basic play.

I can’t see any reason why anyone would be selling an item that would have enough money that the amount would have immediate value to them, and that could not wait 24 hours to see their returns on it. I mean maybe if selling at the buy order price skipped some of the fees, or if they could get the coins in pocket without needing to visit a TP-rep, I could see people choosing that over sell orders, but otherwise, if the difference in profits is anything more than a silver or so for the whole deal then they are better off going with the sell order 100% of the time.

Repair costs have been removed and WP fees are waived if you’re dead and broke, so if people are genuinely living so close to flat broke that they absolutely need to empty their bags at 3s per unit instead of 5s per unit because they can’t wait 24 hours to pick it up, then they really need to consider their savings a bit more. Either that or ANet should start offering payday loans, they could make a killing.

I really wish there was someone who represented the “farmer who dumps his items” to the highest buy order here.

Wanze.8410:

Feel free to check my post history regarding the change. I always posted that i rather have the lowest listing as default or give players the option to choose, if lowest listing or highest bid will be their default sales price. If you claim that certain people advocate certain changes, please provide quotes to back it up before insulting them.

I would also like to say I have never even commented on the default option until a few posts ago. So I concur with wanze.

Since you ignored the followup post ill give you one reason why selling to the highest bid as default is a bad thing.

“I think that the tp would be easier to manipulate with this system in place.

Simple scenario: item X has sell now price of 20c and a list price of 50c. I would list 25 at 21c let people stock up my ultra low price point and then buy them out relisting them at 49c. I really like this idea and think they should revert the change back. Is this the “best” option for people? It sure is for me."

Would you address this point please? I really would like to read your thought on it because that is exactly what I would be doing.

Wanze.8410:

Ohoni.6057:

Wanze’s point was that “the majority of the players” didn’t want the default to be the lowest sell price, and so ANet changed it. The only metric by which they could gather such data, particularly within such a short turnaround, would be by listening to people on the forums. Many of the people active on the forums that discuss the TP are the serious TP baron types, who of course would not want mechanisms that would make it easier for newbs to maximize their profits and minimize the TP baron’s margins. I mean, how profitable would the typical short term flip be if nobody ever filled buy orders unless the margins were negligible? It would be a nightmare for people who live as parasites on their fellow players, while at the same time meaning an average of 15-20% more TP gold per week for the average player.

It would make absolutely no difference in convenience or selling time, it takes no longer to place a sell order than to fill a buy order, the only difference is that it might take a little bit longer for the gold to materialize, and most players are not living so close to the margins that they absolutely need their TP returns right that minute. There is no plausible reason why the average player would not benefit from having the “sell order” price be the default option, but it would certainly upset the oligarchs.

Feel free to check my post history regarding the change. I always posted that i rather have the lowest listing as default or give players the option to choose, if lowest listing or highest bid will be their default sales price. If you claim that certain people advocate certain changes, please provide quotes to back it up before insulting them.

Ohoni didn’t say you wanted it. They said that you said that a majority wanted it, which you did.

Wanze.8410:

Ohoni.6057:

Hell, at minimum they could change the default behavior from “sell at max buy order price” to “sell at minimum sell order price.”

They did exactly that with the introduction of the new TP UI. After negative feedback from the player base, they reverted that change in another patch shortly after.
It seems the mayority of the people doesnt care about the profits other people make when they sell directly. They are more interested in using 1 click less to sell their loot and get gold for it instantly.

I really wish there was someone who represented the “farmer who dumps his items” to the highest buy order here.

Ok, seriously, why do you believe that a “farmer who dumps his items to the highest buy order” would EVER come out ahead of the “farmer who dumps his items to the lowest sell order?”

Would you address this point please? I really would like to read your thought on it because that is exactly what I would be doing.

I honestly didn’t understand what the hell you were talking about.

Ohoni.6057:

I really wish there was someone who represented the “farmer who dumps his items” to the highest buy order here.

Ok, seriously, why do you believe that a “farmer who dumps his items to the highest buy order” would EVER come out ahead of the “farmer who dumps his items to the lowest sell order?”

I don’t believe that, didnt say I believed that and please dont try putting words into my mouth by cherry picking my posts. I was merely wishing for someone who did that to post their reasons why

Would you address this point please? I really would like to read your thought on it because that is exactly what I would be doing.

I honestly didn’t understand what the hell you were talking about.

It is an example of how I could more easily manipulate the market if the default setting it to post to the lowest sell order. You not understanding that is partly why you have no credibility on this forum.

It is an example of how I could more easily manipulate the market if the default setting it to post to the lowest sell order. You not understanding that is partly why you have no credibility on this forum.

Oh, I think I’ve worked out what you meant. So basically, the margin when you got there was 30c. You would list a bunch at a low price and drop the margin to 1c, wait for people to list their items at that price, and then buy all those up and relist at a margin of 29c? Well, you could, but 1. I doubt it’d work because other people would likely be buying those low bids up too, and 2. you can already do this, so go right ahead.

Setting the default to lowest sell would not actually make that strategy any more successful. The people who would be auto-posting at 21c under your scheme would be the same people that would currently either A. selling things at the still lower buy price of 20c, or B. defaulting to the 20c buy price but mindlessly click the lowest sell price, so either would be in the same place after the change as before it.

The only people who would not fall for your trap are C. people who start at lowest sell, but evaluate that option a bit to see if it makes sense, and if not, adapt their own price. The C people, again, would be in the same position regardless of what the default is.

So basically, if someone did want to run a scheme as you suggest, they could do so if the low-sell price were the default, and they could just as easily do it if the high-buy price was the default, and make the same profits either way (actually slightly less profit after, since you’d be paying 21c per unit instead of 20c per unit).

Ohoni.6057:

Anet can track usage of the TP compared to what people vendor. I suppose they saw a huge spike in people selling to the vendor greens and blues, for convenience sake, as opposed to putting up for sale on the TP.

Maybe, but that would be them being stupid, so it would be a cause for education, not changing the mechanic.

Education cant be forced, if there isnt a will to learn. Of course there is a learning curve in using the tp (even i started out selling all my stuff to vendors). But at some point players will know what the difference between filling buy orders and making your own listing is.
At that point, you have to acknowledge that they make a conscious choice and are aware of potential profits and risks.

I also think their decision to revert the default sale option to highest bid instead of lowest listing wasnt based too much on forum feedback but feedback they gathered via tp usage:

I guess we all agree that the majority of items gets sold to highest bids rather than bought from a listing.
Lets say it was 70% sold to highest bid and 30% listed, so only 3/10 people used to make the extra click to switch to match the lowest listing (or more clicks to input a custom price).
I agree that the claim that many people just sold to the highest bid because it was the default option at that time was a valid one.
But then they changed the default to match the lowest listing.
My guess would be that the mayority of players now did the extra click to switch to sell to the highest bid, which is a pretty good indication of what the mayority of players want and they reverted the change.

I dont think that they put the feedback on the forums into much consideration.
I dont see why you would think that they would revert the change based on a couple of players opinions on the forums.

Ohoni.6057:

Oh, I think I’ve worked out what you meant. So basically, the margin when you got there was 30c. You would list a bunch at a low price and drop the margin to 1c, wait for people to list their items at that price, and then buy all those up and relist at a margin of 29c? Well, you could, but 1. I doubt it’d work because other people would likely be buying those low bids up too, and 2. you can already do this, so go right ahead.

1. It would work because of the whole click efficiency thing and any good manipulator would also pad the price points between the real sell listing and the manipulated one.

2.I already have done this and it does work, but not as well as if the default was set to lowest sell price.

I would also be the highest buy order as well so I would fill up my desired stock quickly if I were to run this particular manipulation.

My guess would be that the mayority of players now did the extra click to switch to sell to the highest bid, which is a pretty good indication of what the mayority of players want and they reverted the change.

I don’t know, it suggests what the majority do, but that doesn’t mean that they needed to change it back.

My guess would be that the mayority of players now did the extra click to switch to sell to the highest bid, which is a pretty good indication of what the mayority of players want and they reverted the change.

You were the one that said that they did what the majority wanted, which no metric like you gave would indicate.

2.I already have done this and it does work, but not as well as if the default was set to lowest sell price.

As I said, it would work just as well either way. All that would happen is that other savvy traders would scoop up your “seed bids.”

Ohoni.6057:

2.I already have done this and it does work, but not as well as if the default was set to lowest sell price.

As I said, it would work just as well either way. All that would happen is that other savvy traders would scoop up your “seed bids.”

Seed bids are bought up all the time now, whats your point? Are you really arguing that this method would be less effective if the fastest possible way to list something literally fed into the seed bid? As it is now you drop a seed and hope people fill your buy order. With posting to the lowest sell listing you can guarantee that people would fill out that seed as they clear out bags.

The more I think about it I would probably work some markets that I could do this to in concordance with event items like settler trinkets from Karka Queen or Teq items.

Seed bids are bought up all the time now, whats your point? Are you really arguing that this method would be less effective if the fastest possible way to list something literally fed into the seed bid?

Yes, because the alternative (the existing system), is that the people who choose the “fastest possible way” would instead be feeding into the below seed bid, the buy-order price. As I said, there are three types of players who would interact with the system you describe:

A. Players that choose the fastest default option and do not care.
B. Players that are smarter than As, and take the extra click to sell at the lowest Sale price instead, but don’t actually pay much attention either, so they’ll list at whatever that sale price is.
C. Players that are smarter than Bs, and list at the lowest sale price, but would notice if something were fishy about it and might wait to sell or post at well above the lowest price if they thought a higher price was likely to come back.

So, given those three types, what would happen to them if they made Sell Price the default and you tried your scheme? "A"s would sell at your rigged lower Sell Price, 21c. "B"s would also sell at this low price, 21c. "C"s would be paying attention and list at something closer to the original price, or hold on to their stock.

Now, what would happen if things were left as they currently are? "A"s would sell at the already low Buy Order Price, 20c. "B"s would sell at your rigged lower price, 21c. "C"s would be paying attention and list at something closer to the original price, or hold on to their stock. So basically no change whatsoever, aside from that you’d make less profit off of A-type players because they’d be posting at 21c instead of at 20c.

It’d be an equally effective scheme under either model, entirely dependent on whether you can buy up more of the item while it’s at the low price to make up the fees when you sell it high, before other players catch on and start to also buy up the seed stock.

Ohoni.6057:

I can’t see any reason why anyone would be selling an item that would have enough money that the amount would have immediate value to them, and that could not wait 24 hours to see their returns on it. I mean maybe if selling at the buy order price skipped some of the fees, or if they could get the coins in pocket without needing to visit a TP-rep, I could see people choosing that over sell orders, but otherwise, if the difference in profits is anything more than a silver or so for the whole deal then they are better off going with the sell order 100% of the time.

Ohoni, please take a look at this thread: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/PROs-and-CONs-New-Trading-Post/first#post4387588. There are several examples of people, who were super annoyed they had to check “sell highest bidder” instead of “sell lowest order”.

If you read the thread further, you can see that those who really wanted to sell “faster for less” are definitely not the same people who frequent this section of forums, let alone this thread. Also, they don’t sound like being TP trolls.

These are the people why Anet reverted this change. Not because of TP barons. To add my vote, I would have preferred it too being “match lowest listing”. It would have saved so many clicks, and I don’t even do flipping.

Edit: corrected name.

Ohoni.6057:

snip

Thank you for making my point. The thing you are missing is that with the sell to lowest listing option being default and putting the seed listings low i am not fighting with any other bidders or overbidding. I am controlling where the price point is. which means i can clear out the margin at my leisure and then reset the price point.

I could do this in cycles too. using those same numbers I could also drop the price point over night, then clear out the stock the next day sometime mid morning and put in a mass buy order around 40c to make a buy order wall for afternoon and evening. I could have it so people who play during my sleep time have a super low price and the people who play during my waking times have a higher price to pay for what ever items.

All of this is possible with sell to highest bid but I will maintain that with lowest listing as the default it would be much easier.

@Wanze, Is there anything here I have missed or been mistaken about?

kuittaa.7360:

Ohohi, please take a look at this thread: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/PROs-and-CONs-New-Trading-Post/first#post4387588. There are several examples of people, who were super annoyed they had to check “sell highest bidder” instead of “sell lowest order”.

If you read the thread further, you can see that those who really wanted to sell “faster for less” are definitely not the same people who frequent this section of forums, let alone this thread. Also, they don’t sound like being TP trolls.

These are the people why Anet reverted this change. Not because of TP barons. To add my vote, I would have preferred it too being “match lowest listing”. It would have saved so many clicks, and I don’t even do flipping.

I didn’t touch that topic because I really do not care which is the default.

Thank you for posting this link. We can maybe get back to the main topic of Precursors being for sale for UNDER 100 gold!!!!!

Thank you for making my point. The thing you are missing is that with the sell to lowest listing option being default and putting the seed listings low i am not fighting with any other bidders or overbidding. I am controlling where the price point is. which means i can clear out the margin at my leisure and then reset the price point.

Yes, in the magical world where you are the only player with any sense. In the actual game, you are setting the price point temporarily, but if any other player notices who actually follows that market, and say 25 units have been committed at your new lower price point, they are free to buy them all up and resell at the higher price before you can, in which case you’ve spent a lot of money for no profit. I’ve done this myself, coming upon markets in which I know I usually sell for a given price, but for some reason there are several units priced well below what it normally is, so I just place my sell order in the usual range and buy up the outliers for sale later.

And again, you can already do this today, and the market would react in the exact same way, the people who don’t pay attention to market trends would be just as likely to be fooled in either case, and the people who do pay attention are just as likely to catch it out in either case.

Ohoni.6057:

I’ve done this myself, coming upon markets in which I know I usually sell for a given price, but for some reason there are several units priced well below what it normally is, so I just place my sell order in the usual range and buy up the outliers for sale later.

you dirty flipper….

I’m firmly against unilateral disarmament and have little respect for those who aren’t. If the system works a certain way, then I’ll use that system to the best of my capabilities, even while fighting as best I can to change the system. Failing to use a system just because one disapproves of it is just foolishness.

Ohoni.6057:

I’m firmly against unilateral disarmament and have little respect for those who aren’t. If the system works a certain way, then I’ll use that system to the best of my capabilities, even while fighting as best I can to change the system. Failing to use a system just because one disapproves of it is just foolishness.

Well, why you fighting the players then that do the same as you?

I would like to say the irony here is that I don’t actually flip any items anymore and I never really did much flipping to begin with. I will buy some stuff and salvage it or invest in it for later use like making mystic forge items if it is cheap. But the actual flipping I find too tedious for me. I don’t have a moral issue with it mind you, I just don’t bother.

Personally though, when I find something distasteful or morally questionable, I choose not to do it so I can avoid being a hypocrite if I make some public stance on said topic. That can ruin ones credibility.

Wanze.8410:

Education cant be forced

It’s not a matter of education. People consistently undervalue gains and losses that may occur in the future and overvalue what they can be certain of now. It doesn’t matter if we’re talking the GW2 trading post or the NYSE or manager’s business decisions or even how we treat other people; we focus on instant gratification over whatever may happen in the future.

Education barely makes a dent. People can know they undervalue the future, and they still continue to do so.

The best we can do, realistically, is to teach people that they’re going to reflexively make short sighted decisions and drive heuristics into them to mitigate it. Kind of. You’re fighting human nature here, it’s not anything close to a quick and easy battle.

Ensign.2189:

Wanze.8410:

Education cant be forced

It’s not a matter of education. People consistently undervalue gains and losses that may occur in the future and overvalue what they can be certain of now. It doesn’t matter if we’re talking the GW2 trading post or the NYSE or manager’s business decisions or even how we treat other people; we focus on instant gratification over whatever may happen in the future.

Education barely makes a dent. People can know they undervalue the future, and they still continue to do so.

The best we can do, realistically, is to teach people that they’re going to reflexively make short sighted decisions and drive heuristics into them to mitigate it. Kind of. You’re fighting human nature here, it’s not anything close to a quick and easy battle.

That was exactly my point.

Well, why you fighting the players then that do the same as you?

You just quoted the entire paragraph where I explained that.

Personally though, when I find something distasteful or morally questionable, I choose not to do it so I can avoid being a hypocrite if I make some public stance on said topic. That can ruin ones credibility.

No, it’s just foolish. If a system works and is allowed, then there’s nothing to be gained by not using it, the only one you’d be hurting is yourself. It’s like if there is a class that for some reason is crazy OP and can roll through content way better than any other class. So long as the devs say the class is working as intended, there’s no reason not to play that class, even if at the same time you believe it would be better if the class were in balance and you argue for them to make that happen. It’s only people who want to maintain the status quo that argue “hypocrisy” over such things, to distract from actually fixing the problem.

I’m not arguing that any single TP flipper should just decide to stop, because all that would do is cause the remaining TP flippers to take an even larger chunk of the market and even further concentrate the wealth. I’m arguing for macro changes that make it impossible to profit significantly off those systems, for anyone.

Ohoni.6057:

It’s only people who want to maintain the status quo that argue “hypocrisy” over such things, to distract from actually fixing the problem.

eithinan.9841:

I didn’t touch that topic because I really do not care which is the default.

I like that you cut out the fact that I don’t flip to try to make your argument…

I like that you cut out the fact that I don’t flip to try to make your argument…

I didn’t “cut out” anything, your post is still right where you put it.