Guild Wars 2

Astralporing.1957:

maddoctor.2738:

The question still stands, how is adding the same rewards on other types of content going to increase raid accessibility?

Adding other avenues to get rewards is going to increase reward accessibility (as well as cut down on possibility that players after those rewards will end up disliking the game due to having to farm them in the content they strongly dislike). Raid accessibility on the other hand would be increased by easy mode.

Sykper.6583:

Your system has literally been discussed for over a year why it is not a better system.

And yet after that year we still don’t have any answer on this. Can it be because the assumption made in that question might be untrue?

Sykper.6583:

It is never a good thing to take away incentives from doing any content by placing them in an easier method to acquire them.

Only if said incentives are not used to push people toward content they do not like.

Easier Raids will make them not Raids, since the intent/design/concept/implementation of raids in Gw2 is to be the Hardest PvE content there is, so easier mode will make them not Raids which will not increase raid accessibility, but having introductory encounters at the beginning of each Raid wing would increase raid accessibility with out diminishing what raids are and would give a very solid stepping stone into Raid content and they can attempt the higher difficulty encounters once they feel confident enough, good Thing Anet is looking to implement that solution.

And you mean like all the incentives forcing players to do Open World Pve to acquire the majority of valuable items in game that can’t be had in any other content? It seems like you only care about incentives not forcing people into content when it is behind something with a little difficulty, I have yet to see you or others advocate to get all Legendary Incentives implemented in all game modes, only that you want them easily acccesible to you in easy Pve gamemodes.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Astralporing.1957:

maddoctor.2738:

The question still stands, how is adding the same rewards on other types of content going to increase raid accessibility?

Adding other avenues to get rewards is going to increase reward accessibility (as well as cut down on possibility that players after those rewards will end up disliking the game due to having to farm them in the content they strongly dislike). Raid accessibility on the other hand would be increased by easy mode.

Sykper.6583:

Your system has literally been discussed for over a year why it is not a better system.

And yet after that year we still don’t have any answer on this. Can it be because the assumption made in that question might be untrue?

Sykper.6583:

It is never a good thing to take away incentives from doing any content by placing them in an easier method to acquire them.

Only if said incentives are not used to push people toward content they do not like.

Easier Raids will make them not Raids, since the intent/design/concept/implementation of raids in Gw2 is to be the Hardest PvE content there is, so easier mode will make them not Raids which will not increase raid accessibility, but having introductory encounters at the beginning of each Raid wing would increase raid accessibility with out diminishing what raids are and would give a very solid stepping stone into Raid content and they can attempt the higher difficulty encounters once they feel confident enough, good Thing Anet is looking to implement that solution.

And you mean like all the incentives forcing players to do Open World Pve to acquire the majority of valuable items in game that can’t be had in any other content? It seems like you only care about incentives not forcing people into content when it is behind something with a little difficulty, I have yet to see you or others advocate to get all Legendary Incentives implemented in all game modes, only that you want them easily acccesible to you in easy Pve gamemodes.

To be fair, a lot of people on many different sides of this discussion will agree that the harder modes need to have better reward. It has been discussed many times – and I think it is important to the game that greater effort=greater reward.

The issue is accessibility – something that even Anet said they are concerned about and looking into. I don’t think that can be accomplished by simply mixing easier and harder fights into the same raid. All that will accomplish is to water down raids to the point where no one really enjoys them.

The mote system – which would also scale reward – seems like the ideal solution. Let Anet design the fights with complete freedom – focusing on what makes sense for the raid narrative and flow. Then use challenge or story (or whatever you want to call them) motes (or even both) to offer that fight experience to wider audiences. That creates a flexible system than can grow over time – creating a deeper experience as people learn the fights – while still offering accessibility and training platforms for beginner or less hardcore raiders.

I feel like if you want the equivalent of infantile mode for raids, it wouldn’t really help with accessibility. It would be a one and done — people would go in just to see the encounter.

And if you wanted a mode that actually attempted to train players, and provided balanced rewards, you may as well make a new raid. New content > repeated content.

I think most of the people who want easy mode just want the rewards. Maybe not Blaeys, but the others do.

And, well, if you want an easy raid that gives raid rewards, you got it. Escort.

Absurdo.8309:

I feel like if you want the equivalent of infantile mode for raids, it wouldn’t really help with accessibility. It would be a one and done — people would go in just to see the encounter.

I think this is a false assumption – and, of course, there would still need to be rewards, just not at the same level as the current raid level, and definitely not legendary armor. Maybe something along the lines of half the magnetite and a decent chance at a vanilla ascended drop (which would give new raiders another new way to gear for the real raid encounters as well).

And, again, I don’t think the escort method is a good way to include easier modes. It only waters the raid experience down for everyone. Let the developers design the encounters the way they feel works best – and then implement motes to address accessibility and/or the need for greater challenge on a fight by fight basis.

To expound just a bit more – the more I think about the idea of training motes, the more the idea seems like the right way to go. It would give raids an alternative path forward when their group comp or skill levels don’t quite measure up. A group can still go in and wipe against the regular vale guardian 10 times – but rather than throwing in the towel on the 11 attempt, they can simply activate the training mote for the experience of the fight, to move on to Gorseval (in the situation that their group comp better fits that encounter) or to gain the lesser reward so members can progress their gear a tiny bit before the next raid.

And, it has the added benefit of opening the content to more players. I do believe it would be content people of all skill levels would repeat – just for the fun of it. I know my guild would probably add a third night of raiding to our schedule – just dedicated to taking 3-4 additional groups (and dozens of players) in to just enjoy the content and potentially grab some ascended gear every week.

Blaeys.3102:

Absurdo.8309:

I feel like if you want the equivalent of infantile mode for raids, it wouldn’t really help with accessibility. It would be a one and done — people would go in just to see the encounter.

I think this is a false assumption – and, of course, there would still need to be rewards, just not at the same level as the current raid level, and definitely not legendary armor. Maybe something along the lines of half the magnetite and a decent chance at a vanilla ascended drop (which would give new raiders another new way to gear for the real raid encounters as well).

And, again, I don’t think the escort method is a good way to include easier modes. It only waters the raid experience down for everyone. Let the developers design the encounters the way they feel works best – and then implement motes to address accessibility and/or the need for greater challenge on a fight by fight basis.

To expound just a bit more – the more I think about the idea of training motes, the more the idea seems like the right way to go. It would give raids an alternative path forward when their group comp or skill levels don’t quite measure up. A group can still go in and wipe against the regular vale guardian 10 times – but rather than throwing in the towel on the 11 attempt, they can simply activate the training mote for the experience of the fight, to move on to Gorseval (in the situation that their group comp better fits that encounter) or to gain the lesser reward so members can progress their gear a tiny bit before the next raid.

And, it has the added benefit of opening the content to more players. I do believe it would be content people of all skill levels would repeat – just for the fun of it.

This seems a lot of work. You’re asking anet to double their effort on all raids, past and future.

I’d rather have 2 different encounters than the same encounter twice. Similarly, I imagine those who like open world would riot if they had to wait on a hard version of each map.

You can raid. Right now. At an easy difficulty level. No ascended gear required. What more do you want?

Absurdo.8309:

Blaeys.3102:

Absurdo.8309:

I feel like if you want the equivalent of infantile mode for raids, it wouldn’t really help with accessibility. It would be a one and done — people would go in just to see the encounter.

I think this is a false assumption – and, of course, there would still need to be rewards, just not at the same level as the current raid level, and definitely not legendary armor. Maybe something along the lines of half the magnetite and a decent chance at a vanilla ascended drop (which would give new raiders another new way to gear for the real raid encounters as well).

And, again, I don’t think the escort method is a good way to include easier modes. It only waters the raid experience down for everyone. Let the developers design the encounters the way they feel works best – and then implement motes to address accessibility and/or the need for greater challenge on a fight by fight basis.

To expound just a bit more – the more I think about the idea of training motes, the more the idea seems like the right way to go. It would give raids an alternative path forward when their group comp or skill levels don’t quite measure up. A group can still go in and wipe against the regular vale guardian 10 times – but rather than throwing in the towel on the 11 attempt, they can simply activate the training mote for the experience of the fight, to move on to Gorseval (in the situation that their group comp better fits that encounter) or to gain the lesser reward so members can progress their gear a tiny bit before the next raid.

And, it has the added benefit of opening the content to more players. I do believe it would be content people of all skill levels would repeat – just for the fun of it.

This seems a lot of work. You’re asking anet to double their effort on all raids, past and future.

I’d rather have 2 different encounters than the same encounter twice. Similarly, I imagine those who like open world would riot if they had to wait on a hard version of each map.

You can raid. Right now. At an easy difficulty level. No ascended gear required. What more do you want?

I doubt very seriously that adding motes would double the work, so I think that is an unfair assessment. The models, the settings, the voice work and most of the mechanics would remain exactly the same. At best we’re talking about simply tweaking numbers (probably not the way they would go) – or removing/adding simple mechanics/timers/etc.

As an (admittedly untested) example, adding a training mote might be as simple as adding a couple of NPCs to help the players with damage and ccs. That is hardly doubling the work.

And, it’s worth pointing out, that Crystal even talked about the possibility of adding motes to encounters in the recent developer AMA. While she was talking about challenge motes, the concept of a story or training mote would obviously work the same way.

Blaeys.3102:

Absurdo.8309:

Blaeys.3102:

Absurdo.8309:

I feel like if you want the equivalent of infantile mode for raids, it wouldn’t really help with accessibility. It would be a one and done — people would go in just to see the encounter.

I think this is a false assumption – and, of course, there would still need to be rewards, just not at the same level as the current raid level, and definitely not legendary armor. Maybe something along the lines of half the magnetite and a decent chance at a vanilla ascended drop (which would give new raiders another new way to gear for the real raid encounters as well).

And, again, I don’t think the escort method is a good way to include easier modes. It only waters the raid experience down for everyone. Let the developers design the encounters the way they feel works best – and then implement motes to address accessibility and/or the need for greater challenge on a fight by fight basis.

To expound just a bit more – the more I think about the idea of training motes, the more the idea seems like the right way to go. It would give raids an alternative path forward when their group comp or skill levels don’t quite measure up. A group can still go in and wipe against the regular vale guardian 10 times – but rather than throwing in the towel on the 11 attempt, they can simply activate the training mote for the experience of the fight, to move on to Gorseval (in the situation that their group comp better fits that encounter) or to gain the lesser reward so members can progress their gear a tiny bit before the next raid.

And, it has the added benefit of opening the content to more players. I do believe it would be content people of all skill levels would repeat – just for the fun of it.

This seems a lot of work. You’re asking anet to double their effort on all raids, past and future.

I’d rather have 2 different encounters than the same encounter twice. Similarly, I imagine those who like open world would riot if they had to wait on a hard version of each map.

You can raid. Right now. At an easy difficulty level. No ascended gear required. What more do you want?

I doubt very seriously that adding motes would double the work, so I think that is an unfair assessment. The models, the settings, the voice work and most of the mechanics would remain exactly the same. At best we’re talking about simply tweaking numbers (probably not the way they would go) – or removing/adding simple mechanics/timers/etc.

As an (admittedly untested) example, adding a training mote might be as simple as adding a couple of NPCs to help the players with damage and ccs. That is hardly doubling the work.

And, it’s worth pointing out, that Crystal even talked about the possibility of adding motes to encounters in the recent developer AMA. While she was talking about challenge motes, the concept of a story or training mote would obviously work the same way.

They’ve stated it’s a lot of work. And you’re not just asking for a numbers shave, but balanced rewards, and a difficultly level similar to dungeons.

If it was so easy, why do fractals take forever to come out?

Absurdo.8309:

Blaeys.3102:

Absurdo.8309:

Blaeys.3102:

Absurdo.8309:

I feel like if you want the equivalent of infantile mode for raids, it wouldn’t really help with accessibility. It would be a one and done — people would go in just to see the encounter.

I think this is a false assumption – and, of course, there would still need to be rewards, just not at the same level as the current raid level, and definitely not legendary armor. Maybe something along the lines of half the magnetite and a decent chance at a vanilla ascended drop (which would give new raiders another new way to gear for the real raid encounters as well).

And, again, I don’t think the escort method is a good way to include easier modes. It only waters the raid experience down for everyone. Let the developers design the encounters the way they feel works best – and then implement motes to address accessibility and/or the need for greater challenge on a fight by fight basis.

To expound just a bit more – the more I think about the idea of training motes, the more the idea seems like the right way to go. It would give raids an alternative path forward when their group comp or skill levels don’t quite measure up. A group can still go in and wipe against the regular vale guardian 10 times – but rather than throwing in the towel on the 11 attempt, they can simply activate the training mote for the experience of the fight, to move on to Gorseval (in the situation that their group comp better fits that encounter) or to gain the lesser reward so members can progress their gear a tiny bit before the next raid.

And, it has the added benefit of opening the content to more players. I do believe it would be content people of all skill levels would repeat – just for the fun of it.

This seems a lot of work. You’re asking anet to double their effort on all raids, past and future.

I’d rather have 2 different encounters than the same encounter twice. Similarly, I imagine those who like open world would riot if they had to wait on a hard version of each map.

You can raid. Right now. At an easy difficulty level. No ascended gear required. What more do you want?

I doubt very seriously that adding motes would double the work, so I think that is an unfair assessment. The models, the settings, the voice work and most of the mechanics would remain exactly the same. At best we’re talking about simply tweaking numbers (probably not the way they would go) – or removing/adding simple mechanics/timers/etc.

As an (admittedly untested) example, adding a training mote might be as simple as adding a couple of NPCs to help the players with damage and ccs. That is hardly doubling the work.

And, it’s worth pointing out, that Crystal even talked about the possibility of adding motes to encounters in the recent developer AMA. While she was talking about challenge motes, the concept of a story or training mote would obviously work the same way.

They’ve stated it’s a lot of work. And you’re not just asking for a numbers shave, but balanced rewards, and a difficultly level similar to dungeons.

If it was so easy, why do fractals take forever to come out?

I think the fractal delay is simply a result of the same issues that caused the LS delays. I fully expect a much quicker turn around on them moving forward – something were already starting to see. I don’t think you can compare that with raids.

And, yes, it will take work. I think, however, with a little creativity (possibly the mote idea – which, again, they have said they are thinking of using anyway on some fights), the effort wont be near as heavy as people think – and would definitely be worth the reward.

Before discussing if Envoy Armor should get an alternative method of acquisition, wouldn’t it better if the topic was about getting everything through alternative methods of acquisition?

That’s a topic worth having, but it’s not what’s being discussed right now. Envoy armor is the element relevant to the topic at hand, and if there is any confusion about my stance, I’m happy to further explain myself, even when I inexplicably have to re-explain my position dozens of times to the same people, and they act incredulous each time.

In that raiding time, do you include training, gearing, mastering the content too? Do you add the time required for some players of the community to create guides for said content? Or you just say it will be the path of least resistance because a Raider can get the entire first part of the legendary armor collection in one evening, clearing all wings.
Do you use the time an average player will require to get the reward, or the best of the best raid runners?

Yes, I would include all that time. Keep in mind, it only took about a month or less for each wing to be figured out, and even if they implemented an easier option tomorrow, it would be a year after the raid started. I would fully expect any alternative to 1. not even start until at least a month or more after the “official” method starts, 2. to have some hard time gates that would make it impossible to complete in less than a given amount of time, and 3. solid gameplay gates that would require a significant investment of player effort, just in a different part of the game than the default method.

Of course there are those who are impossible to please on that count, who would thik that any amount of time would be “too short,” or any amount of effort would be “too easy” to ever be worth “their” rewards, but satisfying those players is not the point.

I still haven’t killed Matthias, one year after they released Salvation Pass. I admit I haven’t tried much, was too busy killing the other bosses, but still. In that easy mode, how many times (so how many weeks because you’ll always kill him) would it take to get all the collection achievement rewards from Mat?

You have to try to win. I’m afraid no system could ever be balanced around "I can’t be bothered to beat this boss, but I don’t want you to get the reward until I do. I’m flexible on the specific details on how each element unlocks, so long as the combined total is within reason. I’m sure that there are some players who would have an easier time completing the task via easy mode, and that’s fine, that’s part of the point, but for most serious raiders, who are willing an able to make an earnest attempt at completing the raid on hard mode, they should find that their path is much quicker and more straight forward than the easy mode.

Ideally you’d even be able to mix and match efforts, so if one particular boss is proving to be a huge stumbling block, you would be able to beat all the other bosses on hard, but complete that bosses’ requirements on easy, allowing you to complete the entire thing. It’s like of like an issue with the Legendary Precursors, that I did the first stage of the Chumpa and Kumquat quest, and that was a lot of fun, but then the middle bit is just “dump a FORTUNE in gold on the problem,” and then there’s a bunch more questing which sounded fun, but I didn’t want to dump hundreds of gold on it when I really didn’t like the bow in the first place, I just wanted to run the quests. If you have content that most players don’t do because insane barriers are put in their way, that’s a huge waste of development resources, which is probably why they scrapped the Precursor questing in the first place.

If some player is looking at raids and thinks “I can handle most of those bosses, but 2-3 of them would be a serious pain, and without them I can’t get what I want out of it, so I’ll just not bother at all,” wouldn’t it improve hard mode raid accessibility if he could still run the ones he was good at?

Re rewards: I’ll just point out, again, that all game modes have exclusive rewards.

Really only deserves one sentence at this point.

Absurdo.8309:

Re rewards: I’ll just point out, again, that all game modes have exclusive rewards.

Really only deserves one sentence at this point.

He doesn’t care, he/she/it only wants the rewards he feels he can’t get normally. Never have I seen him actually advocate on getting alternate methods of acquisition for all Legendary rewards.

Easier Raids will make them not Raids, since the intent/design/concept/implementation of raids in Gw2 is to be the Hardest PvE content there is, so easier mode will make them not Raids which will not increase raid accessibility, but having introductory encounters at the beginning of each Raid wing would increase raid accessibility with out diminishing what raids are and would give a very solid stepping stone into Raid content and they can attempt the higher difficulty encounters once they feel confident enough, good Thing Anet is looking to implement that solution.

No, that wouldn’t work at all. Some players might do the “more accessible” first encounter of the wing, but that would not make them any better at the later ones. I mean, you could run Escort hundreds of times and still not be better at Xera. They have completely different mechanics.

And you mean like all the incentives forcing players to do Open World Pve to acquire the majority of valuable items in game that can’t be had in any other content?

Again, two wrongs don’t make a right. If you don’t want to have to do open world PvE to earn something you have your eye on, push for it to be available elsewhere, I will support you in that, but the existence of that state does not justify Envoy armor being locked behind raiding.

I have yet to see you or others advocate to get all Legendary Incentives implemented in all game modes, only that you want them easily acccesible to you in easy Pve gamemodes.

Then you haven’t been looking.

I feel like if you want the equivalent of infantile mode for raids, it wouldn’t really help with accessibility. It would be a one and done — people would go in just to see the encounter.

Nobody’s looking for Infantile mode. If we’re using SAB as an example, raids are Tribulation mode, full of pointless OHKOs. We’re looking for something more like Normal mode, something where a random pug of compeltely inexperienced players can get through it, but you do actually have to pay a reasonable amount of attention to what you’re doing.

And if you wanted a mode that actually attempted to train players, and provided balanced rewards, you may as well make a new raid. New content > repeated content.

Again, for all the discussion of how we don’t know how long anything takes, it is impossible for an easy mode of existing raid wings to be harder to produce than an entirely new raid wing of equivalent scope. For all those complaining that easy mode will slow development of your precious next raid, adding an entirely new “easy raid” that is not using the assets of the existing one would set back not only that next raid wing, but like LW content by considerably longer, and don’t even pretend you believe otherwise.

New content is better than repeated content, but repeated content is easier to make, and just as good for players who cannot experience it in its existing form.

If it was so easy, why do fractals take forever to come out?

Fractals are exactly the sort of “new easy raid” you were talking about, each new Fractal involves creating new assets and designing new encounter scenarios, and all tuned to be very challenging at a high level, and all that does take time. We’ve yet to see an example of them taking a Fractal 100-class fight, fully completed, and then scaling that back to be a Fractal 20 encounter, which would be the equivalent of what we’re talking about here. That process should be considerably faster than their usual Fractal process.

Re rewards: I’ll just point out, again, that all game modes have exclusive rewards.

Really only deserves one sentence at this point.

And I’ll just point out again, that no game modes should.

He doesn’t care, he/she/it only wants the rewards he feels he can’t get normally. Never have I seen him actually advocate on getting alternate methods of acquisition for all Legendary rewards.

Then you haven’t been in the right threads, but I do pick the battles I choose to fight, just as someone might give money to one charity, without that meaning that he believes that all other charities are not worth supporting.

Ohoni.6057:

Re rewards: I’ll just point out, again, that all game modes have exclusive rewards.

Really only deserves one sentence at this point.

And I’ll just point out again, that no game modes should.

He doesn’t care, he/she/it only wants the rewards he feels he can’t get normally. Never have I seen him actually advocate on getting alternate methods of acquisition for all Legendary rewards.

Then you haven’t been in the right threads, but I do pick the battles I choose to fight, just as someone might give money to one charity, without that meaning that he believes that all other charities are not worth supporting.

To be honest, it just seems disingenuous. Where’s your passion regarding the exclusive LS rewards? Or literally every game mode.

It’s been this way since release.

and we’ve come full circle again.

Glad to see nothing has changed, and nothing will.

Ohoni.6057:

It is never a good thing to take away incentives from doing any content by placing them in an easier method to acquire them.

No, it often is a good thing, when those incentives would otherwise lead a player to do something he does not enjoy. You don’t like that, but it does not stop it from being true nonetheless.

Only when the balance of reward = time/effort is achieved. When you have easier content give more reward, new content is invalidated and not played. See ‘AB Multimap’ as an example of this, or even the new Bitterfrost Map when comparing earning berries to wood and rubies.

I already know to what extent you want easy content to earn compared to the normal method from our talk months ago, and it is extremely rewarding for low effort methods that it completely invalidates doing the main method.

Because all MMO players are driven the most by the shiny at the end.

Astralporing.1957:

Sykper.6583:

Your system has literally been discussed for over a year why it is not a better system.

And yet after that year we still don’t have any answer on this. Can it be because the assumption made in that question might be untrue?

There have been far too numerous counterpoints that I know you are ignoring outright. Please do your own research.

Astralporing.1957:

Sykper.6583:

It is never a good thing to take away incentives from doing any content by placing them in an easier method to acquire them.

Only if said incentives are not used to push people toward content they do not like.

They can deal with that one way or another, as that is the intent of the incentive / reward… or request an alternative but equal reward elsewhere. If you believe that content is the main driver behind the content being played, rather than the carrot on the stick at the end, you aren’t paying attention.

And yes I realize we’ve come full circle yet again on this discussion. I suppose it never gets old.

Ohoni.6057:

Re rewards: I’ll just point out, again, that all game modes have exclusive rewards.

Really only deserves one sentence at this point.

And I’ll just point out again, that no game modes should.

He doesn’t care, he/she/it only wants the rewards he feels he can’t get normally. Never have I seen him actually advocate on getting alternate methods of acquisition for all Legendary rewards.

Then you haven’t been in the right threads, but I do pick the battles I choose to fight, just as someone might give money to one charity, without that meaning that he believes that all other charities are not worth supporting.

Come on man we just discussed this a few days back. It is your opinion that no game mode should have exclusive rewards. This is NOT fact. I believe 100% the opposite, that the ideal game state is where all game modes have multiple sets of rewards that are unique to that game mode. The socialist reward style of gaming is just an opinion, not factually any better or worse.

ButterPeanut.9746:

Ohoni.6057:

Re rewards: I’ll just point out, again, that all game modes have exclusive rewards.

Really only deserves one sentence at this point.

And I’ll just point out again, that no game modes should.

He doesn’t care, he/she/it only wants the rewards he feels he can’t get normally. Never have I seen him actually advocate on getting alternate methods of acquisition for all Legendary rewards.

Then you haven’t been in the right threads, but I do pick the battles I choose to fight, just as someone might give money to one charity, without that meaning that he believes that all other charities are not worth supporting.

Come on man we just discussed this a few days back. It is your opinion that no game mode should have exclusive rewards. This is NOT fact. I believe 100% the opposite, that the ideal game state is where all game modes have multiple sets of rewards that are unique to that game mode. The socialist reward style of gaming is just an opinion, not factually any better or worse.

Plus, you can get legendary armor through any game mode … just buy raids.

To be honest, it just seems disingenuous. Where’s your passion regarding the exclusive LS rewards? Or literally every game mode.

It’s been this way since release.

This is the issue I choose to spend my limited time on right now. That is my right. That doesn’t mean I don’t believe that other areas need change, but this is the area I choose to focus on until we see some progress. Once this issue is solved, I might have more time to devote to other areas.

Only when the balance of reward = time/effort is achieved.

That’s all subjective though. Some people in this thread have indicated that NO amount of time or effort spent outside of raids could ever amount to even ten seconds spent inside raids, because raids are just that much more special than anything else in the game. Others have been somewhat more reasonable in indicating it should only take a few decades for someone to get Legendary armor via any alternate method.

Obviously alternatives should be balanced for time and effort, and I’ve never suggested otherwise, but we do have to use reasonable standards of what IS balanced time and effort, and not rely on raiders alone to decide how very important raiding is compared to everything else. It’s a bit like trying to discuss the “relative pain” of child birth verses any other kind of pain, you just can’t win that argument, but it doesn’t mean that there aren’t some reasonable positions to take in there.

or request an alternative but equal reward elsewhere.

This is an argument I really have trouble with, because there’s no such thing as “alternative but equal reward.” Rewards are not fungible. You cannot say that Honor of the Waves armor is “alternative but equal to” Ascalon armor, even though they’re mathematically balanced and theoretically on the same tier of content. If someone wants to look like a Viking bear, the Ascalon armor is worthless to them. If someone wants to look like a gala ball performer, then HotW armor is worthless to them. You can’t say one is “equivalent” to the other, since that is an entirely subjective position.

You could line up a dozen armor sets in the game, some dungeon, some hardcore achievement based, some crafted, some vendor trash, and ask ten people to rank them from best to worst, and each of those lists will be in a different order, in some cases with best and worst in opposite positions.

So you can’t say "well, Raiders will get Envoy armor, and ONLY raiders can get it, but that’s ok, because open world PvE can get the “Sunspear” armor, and it’s just as good. Well Sunspear might be good in its own way, and some people will probably like it even better, but there will also be plenty of people who would still prefer to have one or more pieces of the Envoy armor, and those people won’t feel any better about having the option of Sunspear armor instead.

You need to be able to get the skin that you want, not the skin you’re assigned.

Not to mention that crafting Legendary quality armor for every possible game type would take a lot more work, and a LOT more time, so players would likely end up waiting 5+ years for the first set to be added to their favored gametype at the current rate of production, and it should go without saying that this is unreasonable.

The socialist reward style of gaming is just an opinion, not factually any better or worse.

I believe that it results in the greatest happiness for the greatest number, and that nobody should want anything less than that.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

And you mean like all the incentives forcing players to do Open World Pve to acquire the majority of valuable items in game that can’t be had in any other content? It seems like you only care about incentives not forcing people into content when it is behind something with a little difficulty, I have yet to see you or others advocate to get all Legendary Incentives implemented in all game modes, only that you want them easily acccesible to you in easy Pve gamemodes.

I don’t spend time advocating opening reward access to those modes, because i don’t play them. On the other hand, i have been consistent in saying, whenever someone else brings that up, that i am perfectly fine with Anet doing just that, and that i personally think that it is a good idea. I have been repeating this dozens of times lately, by the way.
If you haven’t seen that, it’s only because you weren’t looking.

Sykper.6583:

There have been far too numerous counterpoints that I know you are ignoring outright.

I do not ignore their existence. I just disagree with you that they actually settled the discussion in any way.

Sykper.6583:

If you believe that content is the main driver behind the content being played, rather than the carrot on the stick at the end, you aren’t paying attention.

Sometimes it is (WvW, for example). Sometimes it isn’t (AB multi). Notice, how the cases where the importance of the carrot significantly overshaded the draw of the content itself usually are a detriment to the game and cause more bad than good.

Ohoni.6057:

That’s all subjective though…

That’s precisely another reason why your preposition is absolutely impossible to implement. How do you subjectively balance players and their interests across all content? You don’t, you cannot do it, not for a game with as many niche interests as Guild Wars 2.

Your solution would actually be more feasible in a game like WoW where the literal end-game focus on a PvE standpoint is raiding. It’s not feasible and extremely gruesome to balance the horizontal progression paths of GW2 when you factor in all the groups. And let’s not even consider specifying that only certain pieces of PvE get this universal access, or else you would be doing the exact same thing you have been calling out against.

Ohoni.6057:

This is an argument I really have trouble with, because there’s no such thing as “alternative but equal reward.” Rewards are not fungible. You cannot say that Honor of the Waves armor is “alternative but equal to” Ascalon armor, even though they’re mathematically balanced and theoretically on the same tier of content. If someone wants to look like a Viking bear, the Ascalon armor is worthless to them. If someone wants to look like a gala ball performer, then HotW armor is worthless to them. You can’t say one is “equivalent” to the other, since that is an entirely subjective position.

Yet they cope with doing either content, or ignore it all together. Who knows? They might change their minds months down the line to get what they want, choice matters here. There’s a certain freedom when you get to decide what you really want compared to what you have to do for it.

Ohoni.6057:

So you can’t say "well, Raiders will get Envoy armor, and ONLY raiders can get it, but that’s ok, because open world PvE can get the “Sunspear” armor, and it’s just as good. Well Sunspear might be good in its own way, and some people will probably like it even better, but there will also be plenty of people who would still prefer to have one or more pieces of the Envoy armor, and those people won’t feel any better about having the option of Sunspear armor instead.

You need to be able to get the skin that you want, not the skin you’re assigned.

Everyone can get what they want- Please understand that just because a reward is behind something you may not enjoy or want to do, it does not exclude them from the reward. The player makes the choice on whether or not the reward is worth the effort. Their personal feelings are irrelevant on the matter.

Ohoni.6057:

Not to mention that crafting Legendary quality armor for every possible game type would take a lot more work, and a LOT more time, so players would likely end up waiting 5+ years for the first set to be added to their favored gametype at the current rate of production, and it should go without saying that this is unreasonable.

Variety is the spice of life, honestly, they should just toss the next legendary armor into WvW, make it a great investment into certain WvW tasks of different natures and difficulties, have some of it come back into the normal PvE, create a blend.

I too find it unreasonable that there would need to be Legendary Armor put into every facet, but I would not mind Legendary Equipment accessibility found in all content.

Astralporing.1957:

Sykper.6583:

There have been far too numerous counterpoints that I know you are ignoring outright.

I do not ignore their existence. I just disagree with you that they actually settled the discussion in any way.

Give me a scenario where players won’t go for the path of least resistance to get their rewards.

Astralporing.1957:

Sykper.6583:

If you believe that content is the main driver behind the content being played, rather than the carrot on the stick at the end, you aren’t paying attention.

Sometimes it is (WvW, for example). Sometimes it isn’t (AB multi). Notice, how the cases where the importance of the carrot significantly overshaded the draw of the content itself usually are a detriment to the game and cause more bad than good.

WvW operates on a different balance of rewards than the rest of the game, and also carries unique skins you can only get in that mode. Plus, it is the fastest method to earn Blood Rubies (ironically imo), which is a great boon for WvWers who need access to specific difficult to earn trinkets.

And so you agree that instances of great reward for low effort/time are bad? Excellent! We can keep the format where you can get a massive reward like Envoy Legendary Armor, behind a massive effort and time like Raids.

Sykper.6583:

WvW operates on a different balance of rewards than the rest of the game, and also carries unique skins you can only get in that mode.

That wasn’t true until relatively recently. And that change didn’t increase WvW population in any visible way.

Sykper.6583:

Plus, it is the fastest method to earn Blood Rubies (ironically imo), which is a great boon for WvWers who need access to specific difficult to earn trinkets.

Are you seriously claiming that people play WvW primarily to farm blood rubies?

Sykper.6583:

And so you agree that instances of great reward for low effort/time are bad? Excellent! We can keep the format where you can get a massive reward like Envoy Legendary Armor, behind a massive effort and time like Raids.

I never advocated getting envoy armor through AB multiloot or any similar content. I rather thought about something comparable to methods of getting legendary weapons.
And those are not low effort/time at all.
So please, stop with the strawmen.

That’s precisely another reason why your preposition is absolutely impossible to implement. How do you subjectively balance players and their interests across all content? You don’t, you cannot do it, not for a game with as many niche interests as Guild Wars 2.

No, you can’t. And yet ANet does try to provide a balance of rewards across multiple modes, and where they miss, they usually try to correct it. I fully expect them to err on the side of caution, making the “easy mode” route to the rewards considerably less efficient than the current methods, and maybe if that proves too much, they could even scale it back a bit.

They can’t make it perfect, but that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t do it at all.

Yet they cope with doing either content, or ignore it all together. Who knows? They might change their minds months down the line to get what they want, choice matters here. There’s a certain freedom when you get to decide what you really want compared to what you have to do for it.

I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make here, because it sounds like you agree with me completely, which seems out of character. But yes, players should be able to choose which activities they want to do, and not have those activities decided for them by the type of reward they’re looking for.

Everyone can get what they want- Please understand that just because a reward is behind something you may not enjoy or want to do, it does not exclude them from the reward.

It excludes them from a positive choice in the matter. If a reward is locked behind a single type of content, and you love that content, then great, win/win for you! But if it’s locked behind content that you hate doing, or cannot do at all, then you’re stuck in the position of either doing it anyway to get the reward, in which case you hate the experience, become more disgruntled with the game, but eventually get that thing you wanted, OR you abandon the thing you wanted, have fun playing elsewhere in the game, but still pine after that item you wanted to get. When the choice is between “win/lose” or “lose/win,” there really is no good solution, just the “least worst” solution.

That shouldn’t be the case.

There should be win/wins for everyone, where they can both pursue the reward they more desire AND enjoy the experience of earning it. Some methods would be more efficient than others, and taking the alternate path would mean taking the longer one, but you’d get there eventually, and it’s better to spend twice as long on a path you enjoy than half as long on a path that you hate.

Give me a scenario where players won’t go for the path of least resistance to get their rewards.

Have you ever been to a modern building in which the entrance is several feet off the ground? It might have a flight of stairs leading up to that entrance, but it almost certainly also has an alternative. Likely that would be a winding ramp that covers ten times the distance, but at a shallow angle. In some cases it might be an elevator, but it would have a wait time or require you to go to another side of the building. Legally almost all buildings require SOME sort of wheelchair accessibility. And yet most people would choose to take the short flight of stairs, over the long ramp, because they’re comfortable enough with the stairs and therefore it’s shorter for them, even though the ramp is, strictly speaking, easier, especially for people who are uncomfortable with the stairs.

WvW operates on a different balance of rewards than the rest of the game,

And yet, those rewards APPLY to the rest of the game. There’s no less need for WvW rewards to be balanced against open world PvE and raids than for raid rewards to be balanced with open world PvE and a hypothetical easy mode raid. The only case in this game’s history in which one mode’s rewards did not have to be balanced with any other was the launch version of PvP, where no rewards translated between PvP and other aspects of the game. If you never wanted to PvP, there was no reason to chase rewards there, because you could never use them in any mode outside that one you don’t like. When they opened PvP rewards to the larger game, they ruined that element, and now PvP also much be balanced with all other modes.

And so you agree that instances of great reward for low effort/time are bad? Excellent! We can keep the format where you can get a massive reward like Envoy Legendary Armor, behind a massive effort and time like Raids.

Nobody is saying that it should be removed form there, just that there should be other paths that also take massive time and effort to achieve the same goal.

Astralporing.1957:

Sykper.6583:

WvW operates on a different balance of rewards than the rest of the game, and also carries unique skins you can only get in that mode.

That wasn’t true until relatively recently. And that change didn’t increase WvW population in any visible way.

Not my point. WvWers never really cared for the reward systems we see in PvE. Very similar to SPvP honestly, there’s more parallels between these two groups.

Astralporing.1957:

Sykper.6583:

Plus, it is the fastest method to earn Blood Rubies (ironically imo), which is a great boon for WvWers who need access to specific difficult to earn trinkets.

Are you seriously claiming that people play WvW primarily to farm blood rubies?

Nope, rather what I am saying is that PvEers will likely play WvW for the Blood Ruby Track, or the Gift of Battle.

Astralporing.1957:

Sykper.6583:

And so you agree that instances of great reward for low effort/time are bad? Excellent! We can keep the format where you can get a massive reward like Envoy Legendary Armor, behind a massive effort and time like Raids.

I never advocated getting envoy armor through AB multiloot or any similar content. I rather thought about something comparable to methods of getting legendary weapons.
And those are not low effort/time at all.
So please, stop with the strawmen.

Fair point about the acquistion, ended up mixing your and Ohoni’s stances together. And I don’t necessarily disagree with having Legendary Armor as a whole earned similar to the Weapons. But I also will disagree about them being high effort rewards, they are definitely a large amount of time to get through mostly trivial tasks. Please tell me how spending hours crafting thousands of Elder Wood at a crafting station is “high effort”?

Ohoni.6057:

No, you can’t. And yet ANet does try to provide a balance of rewards across multiple modes, and where they miss, they usually try to correct it. I fully expect them to err on the side of caution, making the “easy mode” route to the rewards considerably less efficient than the current methods, and maybe if that proves too much, they could even scale it back a bit.

They can’t make it perfect, but that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t do it at all.

They balance the reward levels, not the skins though. You are 100% welcome to demand Legendary Armor acquisition outside of Forsaken Thicket, that’s a valid perspective we see in GW2. The demand deviates from what Arenanet has done when you demand that Envoy Legendary Armor is made available elsewhere. You have to have noticed this.

Ohoni.6057:

I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make here, because it sounds like you agree with me completely, which seems out of character. But yes, players should be able to choose which activities they want to do, and not have those activities decided for them by the type of reward they’re looking for.

You misunderstood me, I was speaking from a player perspective where the player chooses if they really want the reward or they give it up at that point and come back to it later. The reward never leaves the location where it is earned.

Ohoni.6057:

It excludes them from a positive choice in the matter.

Wrong. You can stop this right now, the game is too diverse in what content it provides to have content that appeases everyone. Your response that everyone should be able to win/win is a non-starter.

Ohoni.6057:

Have you ever been to a modern building in which the entrance is several feet off the ground?

I thought that the word ‘Players’ would have tipped you off to find a gaming example. And the example is poor one at best, because the stairs are still the path of least resistance since the time aspect is far, far shorter than the ramp. The legitimately handicapped take a far longer time to go through the ramp, which I don’t believe you would want anyways for your example.

Ohoni.6057:

And yet, those rewards APPLY to the rest of the game.

That’s true, but those dedicated for WvW did not require such rewards for their gameplay, until it directly interfered with the balance of WvW as a whole. Much like why SPvP had to be changed when Elite Specs were introduced.

Ohoni.6057:

Nobody is saying that it should be removed form there, just that there should be other paths that also take massive time and effort to achieve the same goal.

I never it was being removed, I was elaborating the point that keeping the Envoy Armor in raids serves as one of the best carrots to get even those not terribly interested in raids, to raid.

Carrots on sticks aren’t put into place to get the willing players to tag along, they would have regardless. Carrots, or incentives in this matter, are put into place to get players who are uninterested or even dislike the content to play the content.

Please tell me how spending hours crafting thousands of Elder Wood at a crafting station is “high effort”?

Most of the effort in crafting a Legendary is in World Completion and now Gift of Battle. And also a ton of gold. Now I wouldn’t mind a system that would reduce the gold involved considerably in exchange for more specific gameplay, but it is a system of Legendary items that are already in the game.

Sykper.6583:

Astralporing.1957:

Sykper.6583:

WvW operates on a different balance of rewards than the rest of the game, and also carries unique skins you can only get in that mode.

That wasn’t true until relatively recently. And that change didn’t increase WvW population in any visible way.

Not my point. WvWers never really cared for the reward systems we see in PvE.

…oh, really? Good to know. Then i can ignore BlaqueFyre comments about legendaries in WvW, right? Since, as you say, nobody really cares about them anyway…

Sykper.6583:

Astralporing.1957:

Sykper.6583:

Plus, it is the fastest method to earn Blood Rubies (ironically imo), which is a great boon for WvWers who need access to specific difficult to earn trinkets.

Are you seriously claiming that people play WvW primarily to farm blood rubies?

Nope, rather what I am saying is that PvEers will likely play WvW for the Blood Ruby Track, or the Gift of Battle.

And? Are they the majority of players in WvW?

Sykper.6583:

Fair point about the acquistion, ended up mixing your and Ohoni’s stances together. And I don’t necessarily disagree with having Legendary Armor as a whole earned similar to the Weapons. But I also will disagree about them being high effort rewards, they are definitely a large amount of time to get through mostly trivial tasks. Please tell me how spending hours crafting thousands of Elder Wood at a crafting station is “high effort”?

Crafting itself isn’t. Obtaining mats (or gold to buy them) to craft with however is. There are also precursor collections (let’s ignore here tier 2 which is just an abovementioned mats grind), that also require some effort to complete.

Sykper.6583:

Carrots on sticks aren’t put into place to get the willing players to tag along, they would have regardless. Carrots, or incentives in this matter, are put into place to get players who are uninterested or even dislike the content to play the content.

Properly used carrots are there to get uninterested players interested (and possibly like the content). They shouldn’t try to attempt anything beyond that however. Trying to pull in players that do not like the content is only going to cause misery, and won’t benefit anyone.
WvW/sPvP reward tracks, for example, are a good carrot. They are there to get people interested in the content, but can be farmed with a minimum investment into said content, if someone ends up not liking it that much. Compare that to WvW tournaments (especially the first one, that had the greatest requirements for rewards) and PvP league, both of whose ended up causing actual damage to their respective parts of the game.

I very much doubt ANet will make the raid Armor accessible in either a hypothetical easier raid or any other PvE content. Why?

• ANet does recognize that there are skill gradations in the pool of players who utilize PvE. They’ve made allowances in raids for that gradation.
• ANet does accommodate the preferences of PvP-only and WvW-only players. We see more and more PvE rewards available in reward tracks.
• ANet does not accommodate the preferences of PvE players who choose to avoid specific aspects of PvE. This observation is based on their 4-year plus track record. Rewards in specific PvE content do not appear in other PvE content, no matter how many players with such preferences complain. A few examples are dungeon skins, SW and HoT skins. Even dailies reflect this philosophy — PvP and WvW get 4 tasks each, and PvE gets 4 tasks, no matter the preferences of those who avoid dungeons, jumping puzzles, adventures or activities.

Why this philosophy? ANet has only so many devs. It’s undoubtedly a daunting task to prepare content for three game modes. Caving to demands that one of those modes, PvE, needs to be designed so that there are multiple (maybe many multiples) of ways to do specific content and multiple ways to get any virtual reward that anyone might want would increase dev workload by an order of magnitude.

As to horses and water… raids aren’t water, they’re food. Different types of horses all drink water, but are fed according to what they’re used for. Breeders don’t feed draft horses and race horses the same thing.

Finally, speaking of horses… Those campaigning for either raid tiers or access to raid rewards without doing the existing raids are — in a manner of speaking, riding a horse backwards. They might be better served to either ride the horse in the direction it’s going, or focus instead on the various other methods of transport the game offers.

Since I know the above analysis and advice will be disdained, I’ll go for three strikes in the horse discussion. While these posters will no doubt continue, I fear they are very much beating the proverbial dead one.

They balance the reward levels, not the skins though. You are 100% welcome to demand Legendary Armor acquisition outside of Forsaken Thicket, that’s a valid perspective we see in GW2. The demand deviates from what Arenanet has done when you demand that Envoy Legendary Armor is made available elsewhere. You have to have noticed this.

I have noticed this, but what I’m asking for is change, so of course I would expect things to be different afterwards. That’s the entire point.

You misunderstood me, I was speaking from a player perspective where the player chooses if they really want the reward or they give it up at that point and come back to it later. The reward never leaves the location where it is earned.

Sure, but neither does the player change his mind later about doing that content. In most cases, if they don’t want to do it today, they aren’t going to want to do it tomorrow, or a year from now, unless the actual conditions of that content change in some significant way.

A player choosing that he’d rather give up on his goal because he’s prefer to do something else is not a happy ending.

I thought that the word ‘Players’ would have tipped you off to find a gaming example. And the example is poor one at best, because the stairs are still the path of least resistance since the time aspect is far, far shorter than the ramp.

You’re making my case for me. The “time” aspect for the hard mode raiding would always be significantly shorter for people that can raid than any alternative method would be. The balance goal would be that anyone who enjoys raiding would see raiding as just an obvious a choice to reach the goal as you see the stairs, but for people who struggle with raiding, they would have other options.

I never it was being removed, I was elaborating the point that keeping the Envoy Armor in raids serves as one of the best carrots to get even those not terribly interested in raids, to raid.

But nobody should WANT players who aren’t interested in raiding to raid. Those players don’t benefit, ANet doesn’t benefit, even you don’t really benefit from that, since they’re likely to be the more toxic people to play with, since they don’t actually want to be there. It’s in everyone’s long term interests for people who don’t want to raid to never raid.

But of course you may want to get them to try raiding, and that’s fine, give them a carrot that they can reasonably achieve at any skill level within a relatively short amount of time. Get through to show up, get them to play the mode, and who knows, maybe they will like it, in which case continuing to raid will be the shortest path to their long term goal. But if they don’t enjoy it, then there’s absolutely no reason why they should be punished for not sticking around.

The “carrot” analogy is actually a really good one, because you want to dangle that carrot relatively close to the mule, just out of reach, and eventually you’ll need to let him have the carrot or he’ll starve. If you dangle the carrot 50ft in front of the mule, where he sees no reasonable expectation of getting it, then you can’t expect that to have a positive result. I mean look at me, I clearly am interested in the Envoy armor, and I’ve tried raiding for it, but clearly it’s not a strong enough carrot to get me to keep doing it, because from my perspective it’s being dangled so far out from me that there’s just no point.

Carrots, or incentives in this matter, are put into place to get players who are uninterested or even dislike the content to play the content.

Nobody benefits from players playing content that they dislike. I have no idea why I even need to explain that to anyone.

Astralporing.1957:

…oh, really? Good to know. Then i can ignore BlaqueFyre comments about legendaries in WvW, right? Since, as you say, nobody really cares about them anyway…

The guy who wants to make a point about WvWers needing more from the stat-changing than General PvE? Go for it, I don’t care, that’s an entirely different discussion. Hell, even the SPvP Legendary Backpiece doesn’t make much sense either when you think about it, but since there’s a Fractal Legendary Backpiece notice how no one seems to care about it huh?

Astralporing.1957:

And? Are they the majority of players in WvW?

No? What’s your point? I was driving the idea that WvW is still a path of least resistance for a valuable currency that’s a pain to get normally.

Astralporing.1957:

Crafting itself isn’t. Obtaining mats (or gold to buy them) to craft with however is.

That’s a large amount of time though. I don’t diminish how much time is invested into Legendary items, I’ve got multiple myself. But it’s not a high effort, which I believe is where we might be having our confusion. You understand that effort implies the degree of difficulty of the task right? The difference between cleaving down mobs for Vicious Claws versus doing Nightmare Fractal 100 as an example.

@Ohoni, I’ve generally agreed with you conceptually, we’ve just have different opinions of what the ideal game state is.

However, this kind of irks me: “It excludes them from a positive choice in the matter. If a reward is locked behind a single type of content, and you love that content, then great, win/win for you! But if it’s locked behind content that you hate doing, or cannot do at all, then you’re stuck in the position of either doing it anyway to get the reward, in which case you hate the experience, become more disgruntled with the game, but eventually get that thing you wanted, OR you abandon the thing you wanted, have fun playing elsewhere in the game, but still pine after that item you wanted to get. When the choice is between “win/lose” or “lose/win,” there really is no good solution, just the “least worst” solution.”

You’ve made it pretty clear in older posts that the "only people who’s opinion really matter in terms of raiding are those who do it for the content, not for the rewards at all. You are entitled to a “fair” reward, but anything additional shouldn’t be the purpose of your raiding"

My question, is why doesn’t this apply everywhere else? Why do open world PvE players need any reason to do the content other than they enjoy PvE? Or WvW players or PvP or fractals etc?

Talking about “fair” rewards from a monetary perspective, raids are one of the only parts of the game where you can spend hours playing and actually lose money. The gold you spend from food and changing builds so frequently due to balance greatly outweighs the monetary rewards from raids.

If everyone only does the content they want because they actually like that content, then why argue over where the rewards go? It shouldn’t matter if somebody else gets legendary armor in raids because you only care about playing the content that you like and being rewarded “fairly”. In that case, isn’t one interpretation of “fair” that the hardest content gets the “hardest to get” rewards?

It seems a little hypocritical to put a burden on raiders that “you only really want to raid if you don’t do it for rewards” and not put that same burden on everyone else.

Sykper.6583:

Astralporing.1957:

…oh, really? Good to know. Then i can ignore BlaqueFyre comments about legendaries in WvW, right? Since, as you say, nobody really cares about them anyway…

The guy who wants to make a point about WvWers needing more from the stat-changing than General PvE? Go for it, I don’t care, that’s an entirely different discussion. Hell, even the SPvP Legendary Backpiece doesn’t make much sense either when you think about it, but since there’s a Fractal Legendary Backpiece notice how no one seems to care about it huh?

Astralporing.1957:

And? Are they the majority of players in WvW?

No? What’s your point? I was driving the idea that WvW is still a path of least resistance for a valuable currency that’s a pain to get normally.

Astralporing.1957:

Crafting itself isn’t. Obtaining mats (or gold to buy them) to craft with however is.

That’s a large amount of time though. I don’t diminish how much time is invested into Legendary items, I’ve got multiple myself. But it’s not a high effort, which I believe is where we might be having our confusion. You understand that effort implies the degree of difficulty of the task right? The difference between cleaving down mobs for Vicious Claws versus doing Nightmare Fractal 100 as an example.

Agreed on the effort portion. That’s my biggest problem with the legendary weapons. Gathering materials does not take effort, it takes time. I personally think the challenge behind most prestigious items in the game should be gated much MORE by effort than by time. It can have some of both, but currently the challenge is gated simply by time.

Also, effort can scale with time pending on player skill. But things that anyone can do with their eyes closed for 6 months doesn’t count as “challenge” to me.

Ohoni.6057:

I have noticed this, but what I’m asking for is change, so of course I would expect things to be different afterwards. That’s the entire point.

The request isn’t a mild QoL change, try a complete and utter rework of the entire game reward system from the ground up, everything from the past few years and the future considerations.

Good luck with that.

Ohoni.6057:

Sure, but neither does the player change his mind later about doing that content. In most cases, if they don’t want to do it today, they aren’t going to want to do it tomorrow, or a year from now, unless the actual conditions of that content change in some significant way.

A player choosing that he’d rather give up on his goal because he’s prefer to do something else is not a happy ending.

Never know, and still up to them. They don’t need to have everything, and something better looking can come up in the future. They never set a goal if they never try.

Ohoni.6057:

You’re making my case for me. The “time” aspect for the hard mode raiding would always be significantly shorter for people that can raid than any alternative method would be. The balance goal would be that anyone who enjoys raiding would see raiding as just an obvious a choice to reach the goal as you see the stairs, but for people who struggle with raiding, they would have other options.

To what degree? Subjectivity also plays a part here, how much easier is earning the HoT currencies to raiding? Is that even measurable? What if it’s too easy to earn in the open world that raiding becomes pointless? Oh no we are back to the single biggest problem with your idea, that the reward system would be the biggest nightmare to balance in a MMO to date!

Ohoni.6057:

But nobody should WANT players who aren’t interested in raiding to raid. Those players don’t benefit, ANet doesn’t benefit, even you don’t really benefit from that, since they’re likely to be the more toxic people to play with, since they don’t actually want to be there. It’s in everyone’s long term interests for people who don’t want to raid to never raid.

You can never know until they complete the content fully. There’s zero possible way you can know, it’s about the same as a player going into a jumping puzzle, missing the first jump and calling the entire thing pointless and unfun. Arenanet has everything to benefit from uninterested players to get interested in raiding once they figure out accessibility, and they are looking at Fractals for this.

Ohoni.6057:

The “carrot” analogy is actually a really good one, because you want to dangle that carrot relatively close to the mule, just out of reach, and eventually you’ll need to let him have the carrot or he’ll starve. If you dangle the carrot 50ft in front of the mule, where he sees no reasonable expectation of getting it, then you can’t expect that to have a positive result. I mean look at me, I clearly am interested in the Envoy armor, and I’ve tried raiding for it, but clearly it’s not a strong enough carrot to get me to keep doing it, because from my perspective it’s being dangled so far out from me that there’s just no point.

Everyone is interested in the next shiny thing, they see what it takes to get it, and they decide if it is worth their time. You felt that Envoy Armor was not worth the time to get it, that’s fine, you made a choice. At some point in the future you might change your mind…also new Elite Specs could drastically alter how Forsaken Thicket is played, but nevertheless the carrot will still be there for you to come for.

Ohoni.6057:

Nobody benefits from players playing content that they dislike. I have no idea why I even need to explain that to anyone.

The devs do, and players who like the content do as well if the ‘uninterested’ players come around to actually like the content to repeat.

It’s all relative.
Competition = good.
Monopoly = bad .

Sykper.6583:

No? What’s your point? I was driving the idea that WvW is still a path of least resistance for a valuable currency that’s a pain to get normally.

No. You claimed, that people play content primarily for carrots, not for the content itself. So, what exactly is that carrot that keeps WvWers in WvW?

Sykper.6583:

Astralporing.1957:

Crafting itself isn’t. Obtaining mats (or gold to buy them) to craft with however is.

That’s a large amount of time though. I don’t diminish how much time is invested into Legendary items, I’ve got multiple myself. But it’s not a high effort, which I believe is where we might be having our confusion. You understand that effort implies the degree of difficulty of the task right?

No, i don’t. Because it doesn’t.
Someone that digs trenches, for example, is not doing anything really difficult. Saying that it doesn’t take effort however would be blatantly untrue.

Sykper.6583:

The difference between cleaving down mobs for Vicious Claws versus doing Nightmare Fractal 100 as an example.

In a month there will be groups that will be so used to it that, for them, getting through that fractal will require much less effort than farming a large number of vicious claws by mob farming.

Just as currently there are people claiming that most of present raid encounters are faceroll easy (and likely, for them, they are).

Hell, even the SPvP Legendary Backpiece doesn’t make much sense either when you think about it, but since there’s a Fractal Legendary Backpiece notice how no one seems to care about it huh?

I’ve made that same point about the PvP wings, and I’m sure some people care about the Fractal backpiece, I’m not one of them, but to each his own.

My question, is why doesn’t this apply everywhere else? Why do open world PvE players need any reason to do the content other than they enjoy PvE? Or WvW players or PvP or fractals etc?

It does, ideally.

1. You want to have some reward in all modes, because the loot chase keeps people invested in the game. The loot is there so that people play GW2 rather than something else, but so long as they’re playing GW2, what mode they’re in is entirely irrelevant outside their own happiness.

2. You want to try and get the loot as close to balanced as possible, so that if they are enjoying the content they are doing, they don’t look over at some other content and say they are getting better for less work. I understand that they do not have this perfect yet, but raids aren’t perfect either, so changing raid loot distribution won’t make things less perfect than they already are. All we can hope is that they continue to nerf super-optimal loot sources and buff sub-optimal ones until they get it close enough.

3. It’s worth having some rewards that are unarguably easier to get in a specific mode, so that players who are vaguely interested in that mode will do it, but alternatives should still be available. For example, if there is Content A and Content B, each could allow you to advance towards Reward A and Reward B, but it would be easier in the mode it was assigned to. If a given player likes both equally, he would take the path of least resistance. If he likes A better than B, then he might still do B for the reward if he likes B enough. If he really hates B, then it’ll take him a bit longer, but he’s still be able to get the reward he wanted via A.

Talking about “fair” rewards from a monetary perspective, raids are one of the only parts of the game where you can spend hours playing and actually lose money.

That’s an entirely different discussion, but my basic answer would be “it probably shouldn’t, they should change it so that you don’t lose money on it.” Or alternately that the cash money payouts should offset those losses when you’re successful, like maybe you can buy good food using Magnecite or something. I don’t think a reasonable solution is to say that you’re destined to lose money by raiding, but in return you get loot you can’t get anywhere else.

It shouldn’t matter if somebody else gets legendary armor in raids because you only care about playing the content that you like and being rewarded “fairly”.

I couple posts up I discussed the fungibility of loot, or lack thereof. When it comes to skins, there is no such thing as “equivalent.” You either get the one you want, or you don’t, there is no fair substitute.

It seems a little hypocritical to put a burden on raiders that “you only really want to raid if you don’t do it for rewards” and not put that same burden on everyone else.

I don’t disagree, which is why that is a point I never claim.

To what degree? Subjectivity also plays a part here, how much easier is earning the HoT currencies to raiding? Is that even measurable?

And yet some people insist that raids are unquestionably the highest skill content in the game, and therefore unquestioningly deserving of the best rewards. It’s all subjective, but it goes both ways. If you argue that it’s impossible to weigh one type of content against raids and say that “this amount of it” is worth “that amount of raids,” then it’s also impossible to say that raid are deserving of any special treatment either.

You can never know until they complete the content fully. There’s zero possible way you can know, it’s about the same as a player going into a jumping puzzle, missing the first jump and calling the entire thing pointless and unfun.

That’s his choice. I can know for myself that I would never enjoy raiding in their current form. You have no grounds to disagree with me on that. It’s fair to use rewards to lead a horse to water, but they shouldn’t force them to drink.

Arenanet has everything to benefit from uninterested players to get interested in raiding once they figure out accessibility, and they are looking at Fractals for this.

You seem to be assuming that a lot of the people who don’t currently raid would really enjoy the current raids if only they could get a group together more easily. I see no evidence to support this. We know that at the very least, raids are not for everyone in their current form. Some people just will never enjoy what raids currently present, even if you personally guaranteed them a good-to-go team on demand.

At some point in the future you might change your mind…also new Elite Specs could drastically alter how Forsaken Thicket is played, but nevertheless the carrot will still be there for you to come for.

If future patches changed how Forsaken Thicket plays to the extent that I would want to play it, then the hardcore types would be hollering all over about how pathetically easy it’s become. I have no interest in seeing the existing raids nerfed into the ground, I want them to remain challenging for those that enjoy challenge. I’d just like an alternative for those who do not. Yes, I made my choice, but my entire point is that I’m not content with my choice, because none of the available options were good ones. I’d like them to put in a good option.

Nobody benefits from players playing content that they dislike. I have no idea why I even need to explain that to anyone.

The devs do, and players who like the content do as well if the ‘uninterested’ players come around to actually like the content to repeat.

No, the devs do NOT benefit from players playing content they do not like, because that accelerates player burnout, and furthermore makes players less likely to spend money. It’s a funny thing, I kind of want to get those new gem store wings, but now I have the Ascension on the characters most likely to wear those, and I had to go through so much kitten to get them that I don’t want to trade them back in. They lost themselves a sale there in the most direct fashion.

And the players don’t benefit either, because we aren’t talking about “maybes” here, we’re talking about players who are genuinely not having any fun and never will. I don’t know how any player could live with himself knowing that he was supporting players playing content they do not enjoy, all in the name of shorter queue times for himself. It’s like some sort of pyramid scheme.

Quote Wars 2 everybody. These threads will never be discussions but rather the repetition of ideas from the same cast of characters.

Nokaru.7831:

Quote Wars 2 everybody. These threads will never be discussions but rather the repetition of ideas from the same cast of characters.

Indeed. Some people appear to be attempting to discuss the ideas and some people … not so much. Worse, we’ve gone far afield from the OP’s original ideas, which were:

• ‘’How would you improve the availability of Raids to more players?’’
• ‘’How would a tier scale fit in Raids?’’
• ‘’In what other ways would the tiers be distinguished from eachother?’’ [sic]
• ’’Wouldn’t that just require alot of resources of Anet to make a bunch of changes?’’
• ‘’How would this be beneficial to Anet?’’

I don’t agree with the OP’s assumptions that raids aren’t sufficiently “available” — they are intended to be a game mode for a certain type of player, which everyone (critics and supporters) estimate to be a minority of the community. I think raids are available to far more players than the originally intended audience. Whether players choose to try raids or not is a different question.

I don’t agree with the OP that adding tiers would have a minor impact — part of the reason that the raid team requires so few developers and continues to produce a lot of quality content is that it’s a “one size fits few” game mode; they aren’t trying to balance for the masses, just for the few. Changing that to add new tiers (other than harder ones) would add start-up costs and increase maintenance costs (every rebalance would have to be checked in all the tiers).

Finally, I don’t agree with the implicit assumption that something needs to change.

And to be clear: I haven’t completed a single raid wing; I am a non-raider. I still think it would be bad to mess with the goose laying this golden egg. Better to focus our attention on other parts of the game that are less successful.

Sykper.6583:

The request isn’t a mild QoL change, try a complete and utter rework of the entire game reward system from the ground up, everything from the past few years and the future considerations.

I’d love to see that because it definitely means no content in any game mode for at least one year.

“Some men just want to watch the world burn.”

I’d love to see that because it definitely means no content in any game mode for at least one year.

You do understand that a game company is not like a “pen” filled shoulder to shoulder with developers, and any time they need to make something, they just open the gate and let a random 5-10 of them out and put them to work, right? They each have their own specific jobs and responsibilities, and for the most part you’d never have one doing the other’s job. This would be a specific task, evaluating content for hours played, quality of gameplay, etc. to determine relative worth, and then assigning rewards to those task. I’m not saying that this would be easy, or that it wouldn’t be time consuming, I understand fully that it would take a lot of work and a lot of manhours, but it would be work that could only be done by a handful of people within ANet, statisticians, economists, gameplay leads, people good at crunching numbers and determining outcomes, and then people good at going through the reward tables and changing the data to add new things in where needed.

What I’m basically saying is that 95%+ of the people working at ANet could not reasonably contribute to this process, so whatever it is they’re doing now, they would just keep doing that stuff. The rest of them, I have no idea what responsibilities it might pull them away from, but it would likely be “systems” stuff, back-end, engineering, stuff like that, which is important work, but not necessarily “content,” so I think it would be reasonable to assume that new LW and raids and whatever could keep coming out at the same pace. What might take a hit is more big picture stuff, like different overhauls to the economy, underlying mechanics, that sort of thing. Maybe instead of Traits 2.0 and 3.0, they could be working on this.

I make no guarantees that this would be the case, maybe the employees that would be needed are more vital to the content creation sections than I’m assuming, I’m just putting it out there that it’s possible that it would have little to no impact on those areas, and it would depend on how specifically a handful of people are currently spending their time within the byzantine clockwork of ANet.

And personally, I feel that of the possible ways those people could be spending their time improving the game, this would be a really good one, that if landed successfully would make ALL players happier than they currently are. Yeah, raiders would have to put up with outsiders getting “their” armor, but at the same time, they could spend their time raiding working towards fully unlocking Legendary Weapons, The Ascension, Ad Infinitum, or anything else that they thought looked cool, but preferred raiding to wherever that thing was placed.

Gawwwwwh, will this madness ever stop? All these 4 thousand pages are mostly about is a few (2 I think) people who can’t play well enough to EARN rewards in a part of the game that they find to hard, or just not fun. Guess what guys?? Its an MMO, named Guild Wars, get it, “guilds”. Get yours to help you complete an area that is particularly tough or just not fun to get said reward then you never have to bother again. WOW introduced Legendry’s and they were stinkers. You had to play or access areas that a lot of people never did just to get a certain part done. But you grabbed a few guildies and went in and got it done, and felt great about it and thanked those that…wait for it…helped you! Nothing was dumbed down or made easy, you simply got help. Sometimes from others doing the same thing….I.e. the MMO part. Like I have mentioned I have yet to have completed a legendary not because its hard but because its a grind, and one I don’t feel like doing right now. But at some point I will have to do the PVP bit and even complete HoT masterys to get the needed items. But if I was to jump on your band wagon I would start crying (yes, at this point its crying) to ANET like you for them to make it easier or put it in a part of the game I do enjoy. Well what about ALL the players (my wife included) who have done it the “hard way” and actually EARNED the reward? Just kitten on them and their efforts? Not cool. And that’s just what you are asking for, to kitten on all the effort countless players have put out doing the content “as intended” and earning the reward, as it should be.
Raids are not “hard”…they are tough, and by design if you would stop your tears long enough to read what Anet has written, as intended.
You have wasted so much “discussion” and not once opened your eyes long enough to see what is there. Your want has never changed not once, you want what you can’t get made easy to get for YOU. Very selfish outlook but hey, you are entitled to your own opinion, so whatever.
Raids, as has actually been mentioned here, need to be more accessible to the player base, not made easy. And that’s done by taking in other classes, changing the meta mentality and like some have said, maybe balancing some skills so classes have more to bring to the raid. Having a portion of the game that is only really accessible by a handful of classes, that’s the disconnect. Yes, I know, any class can do the content, no issue there. Its just that “any class” isn’t accepted to the said content, that’s all.
So, you that want the easy peasy way, do what others have done and are doing, GET HELP! Its a social game and I for one have yet to be turned away asking for help, in Guild or in Open world. I mean how many HoT hero point trains have you seen people do just because they want to help? Myself, tons……so yea, can the madness stop or at least get back on topic as some really good suggestions have been mentioned in here amongst the crap. Cheers!

Well what about ALL the players (my wife included) who have done it the “hard way” and actually EARNED the reward? Just kitten on them and their efforts? Not cool. And that’s just what you are asking for, to kitten on all the effort countless players have put out doing the content “as intended” and earning the reward, as it should be.

No.

They still did that thing, and nobody can take that away from them, even if the “medal” for doing that thing becomes less rare. Back when they added the Wardrobe system, it meant that plenty of people could now dual-wield Legendaries without actually needing to own two of them, which in the same sense you’re talking about “devalued” the efforts of those who made two Incinerators. They did provide a title for such players though, and maybe they could do something here, offering a unique title to players who have completed certain objectives before the easier mode goes into effect.

Ultimately though, you can’t hold the future hostage to the past. You can never say “well some players did this one way, therefore we can NEVER change that system in any way that would allow others to do it easier.” Back at launch the game cost $60, and then over the next three years, it dropped to $30, and $15, and eventually went F2P, and at each stage people complained that it was “devaluing” that initial $60 purchase (or the $15 purchase from particularly entitled latecomers), but that’s how the world works, the first people to do something almost always have it the roughest, but things tend to get more accessible over time, and that’s a good thing because it allows more people to enjoy it.

If your wife would be genuinely salty that other players would have access to Legendary armor through some other methods, then that’s a pity, but it’s more than made up for my the dozens of players who would now be happy because they have Legendary armor. It’s more important to please people who can be happy within themselves, than to please people who can only be happy at the expense of others.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Finally, I don’t agree with the implicit assumption that something needs to change.

Just leaving these here:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Story-Mode-vs-Explore-Mode-difficulty/first

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Why-Have-Easy-and-Hard-Mode-Dungeons

I guess those multiple difficulty modes for Dungeons did a very good job!
There were more threads like these back in 2013 and discussion on how hard the dungeons were, yes these dungeons we can now do while blindfolded.
Before someone screams “Ascended”, the dungeons became “easy mode” before we got Ascended Armor and Weapons. Ascended Armor was added in December 2013, Ascended Weapons in September 2013. By summer of 2013 the “please nerf dungeons”, gave way to “dungeons are too easy” comments. The “this game is too hard” became “this game is too easy”.

So what changed? The players. It’s the same thing how raid guilds didn’t kill the raid bosses on their first tries (excluding those who tried them in beta and already had experience) but now they do 8-man clears, then 5-man clears and so on. The players are getting better, either better at playing the game, or following better guides/tactics/builds.

Accessibility
The big difference with dungeons is accessibility. If people can’t even enter a Raid, they can’t get better at it right? Some suggestions:

5-man vs 10-man
Getting a 5-man team is easier than a 10-man team, due to the size difference. A way for 2 5-man teams (for example two fractal teams) to more easily join up and form a raid team can help with this. Devs are working on something like this if I recall.

Daily vs weekly rewards
Getting a team for content with daily rewards is easier than getting a team for content with weekly rewards. Some form of incentive for repeating the raids, once you finish them, might be required. This will make it easier to form groups outside the first few days, and at off-peak hours. Tuesday/Wednesday are probably the best days to get Raid groups, Mondays are when most static groups Raid.

Time commitment.
Dungeons are generally really fast, and paths that took way too long were ignored. Raid wings should also be fast enough, at least when not counting multiple wipes. I hope the next Raid that will have 4 bosses won’t take hours to finish. Making Raids content that can be done in shorter bursts is essential to allow players with not-set schedules to play it.

Profession balance is obviously important but outside the scope of the Raid team. The balance team needs to step up and make sure there is at least one (more is better) viable build for each profession. If an entire profession is considered sub-optimal then those enjoying that profession cannot Raid.

Fixing raid access is first and foremost priority.

maddoctor.2738

Getting a team for content with daily rewards is easier than getting a team for content with weekly rewards. Some form of incentive for repeating the raids, once you finish them, might be required. This will make it easier to form groups outside the first few days, and at off-peak hours. Tuesday/Wednesday are probably the best days to get Raid groups, Mondays are when most static groups Raid.

Time commitment. Dungeons are generally really fast, and paths that took way too long were ignored. Raid wings should also be fast enough, at least when not counting multiple wipes. I hope the next Raid that will have 4 bosses won’t take hours to finish. Making Raids content that can be done in shorter bursts is essential to allow players with not-set schedules to play it.

Profession balance is obviously important but outside the scope of the Raid team. The balance team needs to step up and make sure there is at least one (more is better) viable build for each profession. If an entire profession is considered sub-optimal then those enjoying that profession cannot Raid.

Fixing raid access is first and foremost priority.

Now that there is some good thinking! And a much better response than just “no”. But most importantly this:
" If an entire profession is considered sub-optimal then those enjoying that profession cannot Raid."

That’s the ticket right there!

And @Ohoni…..
“If your wife would be genuinely salty that other players would have access to Legendary armor through some other methods, then that’s a pity, but it’s more than made up for my the dozens of players who would now be happy because they have Legendary armor. "
Other methods I have no issue with at all, but that’s not what you want. You want something made easy, for you, so you can get the reward. That’s just not cool. Now, make it accessible through another method, that’s fine. That’s not taking anything away from those that did the raids or whatever, and that’s how it should be. Just don’t make something easy because a certain number find it hard.

I guess those multiple difficulty modes for Dungeons did a very good job!
There were more threads like these back in 2013 and discussion on how hard the dungeons were, yes these dungeons we can now do while blindfolded.

Yes, and this is a very good example of what we’re trying to avoid. Everyone who likes raids the way they are? You’d better get on board the easy mode bandwagon, or else there is likely to only be one mode, and that mode will be easy mode. By fully splitting them off, they can tune the one mode to the community’s satisfaction, while leaving the other mode where it is for more hardcore players to enjoy.

Getting a 5-man team is easier than a 10-man team, due to the size difference. A way for 2 5-man teams (for example two fractal teams) to more easily join up and form a raid team can help with this. Devs are working on something like this if I recall.

And if 14 raid teams can form up, you’d have a Dragon’s Stand map filled! Being able to combine two teams of five does nothing to make things easier, you’d still need ten total people. How would that be any different than two half-filled raid-teams on LFG merging?

Time commitment. Dungeons are generally really fast, and paths that took way too long were ignored. Raid wings should also be fast enough, at least when not counting multiple wipes. I hope the next Raid that will have 4 bosses won’t take hours to finish. Making Raids content that can be done in shorter bursts is essential to allow players with not-set schedules to play it.

What have I been talking about this entire time?

Yes, and this is a very good example of what we’re trying to avoid.

Dungeons didn’t become easy mode because of a change, a nerf, or a buff. They became easy because players got more experience and got good at running. Even the hardest Raid will eventually become easy, I mean there are already 3-mans of VG
The only solution in keeping the Raids hardcore forever is to continually add harder and harder modes and keep this one as the easy mode, but I don’t think that’s the dev plan anyway.

And if 14 raid teams can form up, you’d have a Dragon’s Stand map filled! Being able to combine two teams of five does nothing to make things easier, you’d still need ten total people. How would that be any different than two half-filled raid-teams on LFG merging?

It’s something that the devs acknowledge:

Accessibility in terms of “Hey, my 5 man Fractal group wants to try raids, but we can’t find 5 other players!” is also something we talk about. It’s just a much more difficult problem to solve.

Allowing a pre-made 5-man fractal team easier access to Raids is important in increasing accessibility. A half-filled team of random player is different to a pre-made 5-man team.