Death and Taxes Competitive PvE Tournament!

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Posted by: Lendruil.9061

Lendruil.9061

As a spectator i have to say that it was really exciting watching 2 or 3 people of a team go into downstate and wondering if they could recover. On the other side, when that team finally wiped the match got really boring.
Maybe a solution could be that not two teams fight against each other, but you have 3 or 4 teams. This means if one team wipes, there are still 2 or 3 other teams left and you would still have a competition.

Skuldin - No Hesitation [hT]

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Posted by: hendo.1940

hendo.1940

Eles should have used Glyph of Renewal(mainly Earth for 3 people) and it would have saved their groups from a lot of deaths.

Rezardi – [DnT]
Game over, yo.

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Posted by: realloc.5846

realloc.5846

Actually “no res” rule removed a lot of skill from certain matches. For example team afking at entrance would have beat rT. Would you call that team skillful?

Based on this particular match – probably not. But as i said – recovering is much more harder and skill-requiring, so we should promote this approach, don’t we ? Teams should have a back-up plans in case something goes wrong in addition to the general smooth speedrun tactics. At least, it is what i would like to see as a viewer and what i’m going to train with my team as a competitor.

And i’m afraid that if ressing was allowed, this tournamed would just reduced to the speedrunning “brute force”. There is no fun in it, imo.

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Posted by: Cotser.7015

Cotser.7015

snip

Thanks so much, was too busy to actually watch the tournament when it was going on but now I can watch it, you’re the real hero.

King of the Nightstand dynasty
I like dungeons and Ikea.
aka Cotscene.

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Posted by: frifox.5283

frifox.5283

Let the fully wiped team respawn. For each wipe the total completion time at the end is increased by 10% – 20% as a penalty.

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Posted by: Sanderinoa.8065

Sanderinoa.8065

I do agree that there wasn’t a lot of ‘recovering’, but I did see many oppurtunities in which it was surely possible, just like with our arah run, we couldve duoed it out if things went a bit better in the end.
Id rather keep the oppurtunity there for someone to pick it up, rather than to remove it.

Do you really think 2 guys could beat a full team when you were already a lot behind? (assuming the team doesn’t mess up really bad)

not beating them :P but keeping it interesting and winning if the other party wipes yeah

Delvert/Sanderinoa [rT]
Retaliate is recruiting. again!
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Posted by: DennisChrDk.9823

DennisChrDk.9823

Let the fully wiped team respawn. For each wipe the total completion time at the end is increased by 10% – 20% as a penalty.

Yeah I would have liked something like this, I think this would have made some of the matches much more interesting. Like rT’s arah path, to see if they would have been able to catch ip to the other team.

My idea for the wipe rule would have been allowing a team to ress at some wp, but they would have to wait X amount og time (depending on the dugeon) before theu were allowed to continue. This why they would still have a chance for a comback, and made it much more interesting, than just seeing one team complete a dungeon

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Posted by: haviz.1340

haviz.1340

Let the fully wiped team respawn. For each wipe the total completion time at the end is increased by 10% – 20% as a penalty.

I have to agree with Weth, wipe is already a punishment. No need to punish a team further. Even anet agrees on that, that’s why they removed repair costs.

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Posted by: BlitzX.4039

BlitzX.4039

So, you pretend to be the fastest-clean-team and if you wipe->use wp->no logic, seriously…(wipe at lupi in p3 as example)
If you wipe – it’s the end for speedclear run.
P.s. idea with penalties is a bit stupid.

About tournament itself: I really hoped to see something challenging, special but I saw mostly “the best tactics ever”: stack→fgs→stack→fgs…

(edited by BlitzX.4039)

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Posted by: maha.7902

maha.7902

If you, say, couldn’t see the difference in execution between SC killing the COF story champion with the weapon summons and other guilds doing the same thing I don’t know what to say.

Over and over again people stacked, used fiery greatswords and still got destroyed, so that should probably ring a few bells in your head that there’s a little more to it than stack + fgs, you’re just choosing to conveniently ignore the finer parts of the tactics – let alone the team splits for COF story and AC story which probably 99.9% of people had never even seen performed until that day.

Serah Mahariel – Death and Taxes

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Posted by: haviz.1340

haviz.1340

If you get back in time and other team will still be slower, you are faster than them, are you not? Who’s faster, a team that wiped few times but did a path in 10 minutes or fully defensive team that haven’t wiped but completed a path in 15 minutes? Also, the very initial plan for aetherpath record actually included deliberate wipe before the final boss.

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Posted by: DennisChrDk.9823

DennisChrDk.9823

Also, the very initial plan for aetherpath record actually included deliberate wipe before the final boss.

What was the idea behind wiping? What difference would that have made?

(edited by DennisChrDk.9823)

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Posted by: deSade.9437

deSade.9437

Just wanted to see if someone was a little sour.
Wasn’t disappointed.

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Posted by: Sins.4782

Sins.4782

Why not go with a set number of reses then? Or maybe allow 1 per person?

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Posted by: haviz.1340

haviz.1340

What was the idea behind wiping? What difference would that have made?

It’s a secret.

Attachments:

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Posted by: KaboomzZz.2914

KaboomzZz.2914

We’re happy that the tournament was well received, and while we’re certainly open to criticism about the rule-set – if you offer a criticism you should also offer a solution or alternative if you want to have a constructive dialog surrounding the event.

Catering the rules to prevent the next (if there is a next) tournament to turn out the same way really isn’t a graceful discussion and its not one we’re interested in having while we “tend to the facebook and twitter” so, go relax, have fun, and enjoy your videogame. I think everyone needs a bit of time to time to mull over the losses and wins and think about what we’d all like to see going forward.

Note; most of our members are pretty exhausted, relaxing, and don’t wish to talk about the tournament, dungeons, or rule-sets quite yet. There is a discussion that we’re going to have internally first, it was after-all, a learning experience for us.

In the meantime; I just wanted to mention I like the World Cup scoring method, applying similar logistics would certainly be a discussion worth having but I’m afraid would extend the length of the tournament even longer (which was also a criticism). Everyone will never be happy so its important to keep it simple so everyone – including the event organizers – can have a great time.

KaboomzZz – Death and Taxes – http://www.dtguilds.com

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Posted by: KaboomzZz.2914

KaboomzZz.2914

KaboomzZz – Death and Taxes – http://www.dtguilds.com

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Posted by: Iris Ng.9845

Iris Ng.9845

To add to this discussion, I support Weth, haviz, frifox’s idea about the full wipe rule. You cannot hard res, but a full wipe team may respawn at the first waypoint and try to catch up. It is more interesting to watch a close match than seeing a team running without any pressure.

“Raids are like fortune cookies. You eat the cookie and then read the paper scraps.”

- doranduck, 2016 on Lore in Raids

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Posted by: Barbarka.9362

Barbarka.9362

Constant downstate is constant very sloppy game play. I don’t know if there was ever a pull that wasn’t corner camping. Standard champs where constantly downing players although the coordinated “Pre heating might was really impressive, lulz”. Oh and great job on keeping those reflects up. With the 3 guard two warrior groups meta is evolving well I see.

(edited by Barbarka.9362)

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Posted by: KaboomzZz.2914

KaboomzZz.2914

Wipe retrys can cause the following scenarios:

Undesirably allowing teams that lose 1 or 2 members to an encounter to purposefully wipe and retry with no penalty. Accidentally lost one? Wipe it quick.

Teams that wipe 2 or 3 times on the first boss, beating a team that wipes on the final boss, as later wipes are more punishing. Who is the better team, the one that wiped once and lost or the one that wiped 3 times and won because the way-point was closer?

Neither of those sound desirable or competitive.

Having a strategy, and performing it under pressure with 1,400 people watching? That counts for something, in my opinion.

KaboomzZz – Death and Taxes – http://www.dtguilds.com

(edited by KaboomzZz.2914)

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Posted by: Wethospu.6437

Wethospu.6437

It’s not very competitive either when team A does a little mistake and wipes and team B wins even before killing the first enemy.

To prevent later wipes being more punishing, teams should be allowed to teleport to the closest waypoint. Also teams should be able to wipe on their own (one player dies, if they want him back, all must go back to the waypoint). If that doesn’t feel bad enough (losing 30+ s on 5-10 min dungeon…) then some time penalty can be added (like wait 15 s – 30 s at waypoint).

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Posted by: Barbarka.9362

Barbarka.9362

They should reduce points time/points for each down. Also no one is going to take this GW2 seriously if they see these videos of Mufti Armed Shiva’s standing in corners. We know DnT thinks its “PRO” but to an outsider it looks so bad.

- Grand Master Filthy Casual

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Posted by: EcoRI.9273

EcoRI.9273

I personally think when a team is fullwiped, you just move on to the next match when it is confirmed that the other team is ahead of the wiped team. I think people are complaining that you are streaming something where the outcome is already set, there is not point. It is like watching a movie where the ending already happened, and gives the viewers of “now what?”

I like the fullwipe rule. [rT] decided to do a sloppy stealth and got punished for it. [FGS] decided to risk 1 second extra time to get a clean stealth. There is risk and reward. The fullwipe rule also makes the weakest link of your team very apparent, and forces consistency in skill. When the hunter/crusher was killed for [FGS], and [rT] fullwiped the match should’ve been over and we should’ve moved on. If you recked your car in a race tournament it’s over you are out. It also makes the tournament go faster, more matches = more fun overall. The tourney was 8hours long with 12teams, had we stopped streaming the decided outcomes and moved on, i think we could’ve shrunk it down to 6-7hours of more intense action

Choking is part of the tourney hype, the best and most exciting tourneys are ones where the best can lose, that is why people root for the underdogs.

http://www.twitch.tv/eco_r_i
Wynd Cloud | Fierce N Licious

(edited by EcoRI.9273)

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Posted by: maha.7902

maha.7902

- Grand Master Filthy Casual

You do not have the qualifications to become a grandmaster such as myself. Meditate on this.

-GMB Swiftpaw.

Serah Mahariel – Death and Taxes

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Posted by: hendo.1940

hendo.1940

They should reduce points time/points for each down. Also no one is going to take this GW2 seriously if they see these videos of Mufti Armed Shiva’s standing in corners. We know DnT thinks its “PRO” but to an outsider it looks so bad.

- Lieutenant BHB

Your BHB skill has leveled up!

Now, maybe if you started making proper posts and not just talk out of your lower exit, somebody might even take you seriously outside the General BHBisscussion.

Rezardi – [DnT]
Game over, yo.

(edited by hendo.1940)

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Posted by: Tree.3916

Tree.3916

The only reason the no res rule doesn’t work is because watching the other team casually finish the dungeon is boring from a spectator perspective.

From a competition perspective, it’s wholly superior. I haven’t seen a single argument put forth for waypointing back that doesn’t advantage a team that wipes on the first boss vs last boss.

FWIW, the idea in my head that makes the most sense is full wipe = done, as before, but allowing anyone to be hard ressed. That way if a boss is killed with 3 defeateds the two remaining guys can hard ress the 3 downs and they can push on. The time loss will be pretty punishing and it will allow for more come backs. But a full wipe has to be final because it means you failed horribly on some execution and its laughable to even consider a team full wiping and then coming back to win.

If you are of the camp that “little mistakes can lead to wipes” well… yeah? Thats why Snow Crows won. They didn’t make those kinds of mistakes. They practiced. They had strats nailed down for the paths the other teams selected so they weren’t surprised. They didn’t have stupid wipes because they were prepared and played consistently. Instead of tailoring the rules to suit players who won’t or can’t prepare adequately, those players should re-evaluate their level of effort. But like I said, I am all for tweaking the rules to be more entertaining for spectators and more competitive for the teams, but I would probably oppose anything that made the rules less competitive.

But like Kaboomz said earlier, my voice is shot and I’m still exhausted and there is a lot to think about and reflect on. So I’ll recover a bit before I get into it.

DnT Apply today if you think you can hang with the best of the best
http://www.twitch.tv/tree_dnt || https://twitter.com/Tree_DnT
The meta is changing at an alarming rate!

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Posted by: Wethospu.6437

Wethospu.6437

How teleporting to the closest WP favor teams wiping on the first boss?

Just because SC didn’t mess up doesn’t they couldn’t mess up, even if they practiced million times. Everyone does mistakes.

In my opinion allowing people to recover actually makes it more competing (think of any sport).

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Posted by: Barbarka.9362

Barbarka.9362

They should reduce points time/points for each down. Also no one is going to take this GW2 seriously if they see these videos of Mufti Armed Shiva’s standing in corners. We know DnT thinks its “PRO” but to an outsider it looks so bad.

- Lieutenant BHB

Your BHB skill has leveled up!

Now, maybe if you started making proper posts and not just talk out of your lower exit, somebody might even take you seriously outside the General BHBisscussion.

I have no Idea what BHB, even means must be some kind of Pro talk, do explain.

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Posted by: haviz.1340

haviz.1340

Retracted for now.

(edited by haviz.1340)

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Posted by: Barbarka.9362

Barbarka.9362

Make it interesting at least. If a player is killed, they are out. No res.

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Posted by: Sanderinoa.8065

Sanderinoa.8065

Let’s leave further discussion on the sidelines till about next week guys, write down your ideas and we can discuss later, dnt needs a break before they can actively participate in discussion again, and I find the discussions with a vital party missing quite pointless, as they’ll need to be redone later.

Take a break, think things through and shout it out when the result is greater!

Delvert/Sanderinoa [rT]
Retaliate is recruiting. again!
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Posted by: Celeste Lightblade.9253

Celeste Lightblade.9253

Why not give this a thought to lessen the length of the tournament?:

Use a similar system as in GW1 where you had to gather points to qualify for the monthly GvG matches. You could break down the amout of matches per day/week so that you stream for like 1,5-2h in a row. Then you give points for winning/losing (as already suggested). Those that earned enough points and qualify for the monthly tournament then compete at a certain date ( e.g. forth saturday of every month). Then it won’t be as long and having pre-eliminations might spice things up even more?

Just my thoughts

All in all I was very happy how things turned out to be with this tourny. At some point I remember saying that the commentary wasn’t as good as in spvp. I didn’t watch all the matches and after re-watching them on YT I have to take back what I said. You guys did an amazing job there!

Greetz

Raphael Van Dona
Member of Snow Crows [SC]

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Posted by: Barbarka.9362

Barbarka.9362

Clearly! I don’t belong here. Maybe if I LOS a few more times I will understand how to truly be at one with the DnT meta game.

- GRAND MASTER CORNER CAMP/MIGHT STACKER

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Posted by: Tom Yzf.5872

Tom Yzf.5872

Long time lurker here. I felt this thread was too awesome to not come out of the shadows and make my first post.

Thanks to all the people that made this possible. It was very entertaining to watch, and the viewer turnout was spectacular.

I’d like to make some comments and suggestions that can be digested now but need no response as like Grouch said, you guys are tired.

- I loved the no WP rule. The reason why the teams fell into death was because they were not prepared for it. It felt like a pug run where there was no communication or situation awareness. It was exciting to see speed running dungeon groups scale back a bit on their aggressive strategies and adapt if things went sour. However, it was very disappointing to see how little these teams tried or were unprepared to adapt. As for the earlier suggestion to let players WP, I’m strongly against that rule. It is more exciting for me to see players panic when their teammates get downed and see the urgency in rezzing them.

All in all I think this event created a learning experience not only for the hosts but also for the competitors. If there is a second event, I hope that the rules stay consistent (although little changes are good) so that we can see how the players evolve.

I do agree with the comment that as soon as the winner is decided, we immediately move on.

- Some suggestions for the commentators.

I know that most of you are learning the role, and for your first time you guys did pretty awesome. However I’d like to see more structured conversations. One example: if Dek were to comment on a down player, and Nike wants to add something, Nike should acknowledge Dek’s comment and transition. This is optimal rather than having multiple commentators saying different things lacking cohesion. Those gem store recommendations were perfect haha.

Also, have fact sheets ready for dead air. Prepare what you want to highlight about each dungeon, each player, or even each class. You’re probably used to talking to other players with high understanding of dungeons and classes, but your audience will contain many that don’t. Some examples: What section of the dungeon might they do a split? Where in the dungeon could we see potential wipes? What is the specific mechanic of the next boss, and what skills/build should this guardian bring to make the encounter smoother, did that ele do a perfect might rotation, what is a perfect might rotation?

To further expand on this, tell the audience what to look for. We’ve seen boss fights a million times, but tell us about it anyway. When should the reflect go up, tell the audience to look closely for the aegis that should pop up, etc.

To sum up, I had a great time watching this event. Congrats to SC for some awesome runs, and congratz DnT for hosting such a successful event. I really hope to see more events like this in the future.

(edited by Tom Yzf.5872)

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Posted by: EcoRI.9273

EcoRI.9273

If you are of the camp that “little mistakes can lead to wipes” well… yeah? Thats why Snow Crows won. They didn’t make those kinds of mistakes. They practiced. They had strats nailed down for the paths the other teams selected so they weren’t surprised. They didn’t have stupid wipes because they were prepared and played consistently. Instead of tailoring the rules to suit players who won’t or can’t prepare adequately, those players should re-evaluate their level of effort. But like I said, I am all for tweaking the rules to be more entertaining for spectators and more competitive for the teams, but I would probably oppose anything that made the rules less competitive.

I 100% agree with this, if you are good little mistakes should be kept at a minimum. rT actually made a HUGE mistake in arah p3. First they knew they messed up on the initial stealth. Second the person who got revealed should never have went with the group but instead should’ve went to opposite way to pull the gate mobs away from hunter/crusher. The guy choked, did not know how to reacted to a revealed situation got punished and got his own team killed. This was a mistake that was recoverable. I had times where I got revealed at gate and I ran back to the first waypoint and just waited for my team to 4man hunter/crusher.

Also if the thief managed his traits correctly by speccing into extended stealth, and then respeccing after the stealth, the whole she-bang could’ve been recovered.

If you are good, adapt to bad situations, recorded speed runs you basically follow a spreadsheet routine and hope rng is in your favor. Live speed run is different you need different skillsets.

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(edited by EcoRI.9273)

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Posted by: aelfwe.4239

aelfwe.4239

Nice matches

Gz to dnt fot organization, to every team who partecipated and to Snow Crows for the win!

For what it worth i liked the “no res” formula.

It would be nice to have something similar in game, like an “hard mode” version of istance\fotm with “no res” allowed!

Aelfwe Dark Asura Mesmer\Thief,
FREE PYRO

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Posted by: Purple Miku.7032

Purple Miku.7032

I personally think when a team is fullwiped, you just move on to the next match when it is confirmed that the other team is ahead of the wiped team. I think people are complaining that you are streaming something where the outcome is already set, there is not point. It is like watching a movie where the ending already happened, and gives the viewers of “now what?”

I like the fullwipe rule. [rT] decided to do a sloppy stealth and got punished for it. [FGS] decided to risk 1 second extra time to get a clean stealth. There is risk and reward. The fullwipe rule also makes the weakest link of your team very apparent, and forces consistency in skill. When the hunter/crusher was killed for [FGS], and [rT] fullwiped the match should’ve been over and we should’ve moved on. If you recked your car in a race tournament it’s over you are out. It also makes the tournament go faster, more matches = more fun overall. The tourney was 8hours long with 12teams, had we stopped streaming the decided outcomes and moved on, i think we could’ve shrunk it down to 6-7hours of more intense action

Choking is part of the tourney hype, the best and most exciting tourneys are ones where the best can lose, that is why people root for the underdogs.

I’m cool with this.

Ultimately what it comes down to is that the excitement with a match was completely absent once it was confirmed what the outcome was (especially when it was at the start lol).

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Posted by: EcoRI.9273

EcoRI.9273

I personally think when a team is fullwiped, you just move on to the next match when it is confirmed that the other team is ahead of the wiped team. I think people are complaining that you are streaming something where the outcome is already set, there is not point. It is like watching a movie where the ending already happened, and gives the viewers of “now what?”

I like the fullwipe rule. [rT] decided to do a sloppy stealth and got punished for it. [FGS] decided to risk 1 second extra time to get a clean stealth. There is risk and reward. The fullwipe rule also makes the weakest link of your team very apparent, and forces consistency in skill. When the hunter/crusher was killed for [FGS], and [rT] fullwiped the match should’ve been over and we should’ve moved on. If you recked your car in a race tournament it’s over you are out. It also makes the tournament go faster, more matches = more fun overall. The tourney was 8hours long with 12teams, had we stopped streaming the decided outcomes and moved on, i think we could’ve shrunk it down to 6-7hours of more intense action

Choking is part of the tourney hype, the best and most exciting tourneys are ones where the best can lose, that is why people root for the underdogs.

I’m cool with this.

Ultimately what it comes down to is that the excitement with a match was completely absent once it was confirmed what the outcome was (especially when it was at the start lol).

Yea there was no one to tell us to stop when a match was decided, so we were afraid that we might get DQed for leaving the dungeon. So I suggest 2referees and 1head referee to decide when a match should be over.

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Posted by: Wethospu.6437

Wethospu.6437

Even without “no res” rule there is a risk and a reward. If you wipe and have to go back to the waypoint, you lose a lot of time.

And as far as I know, this isn’t a race car tournament (and even in those if you lose one race there are usually 10+ more races left to catch up).

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Posted by: Jerus.4350

Jerus.4350

How teleporting to the closest WP favor teams wiping on the first boss?

Just because SC didn’t mess up doesn’t they couldn’t mess up, even if they practiced million times. Everyone does mistakes.

In my opinion allowing people to recover actually makes it more competing (think of any sport).

I think that’s where the 2/3 paths comes in. Make a mistake on one, and you still have another to catch up on forcing a third path. Make a mistake or lose 2 paths and well… you’re done.

Thinking of any sport, lets talk MMA/Boxing, punchers chance, one bad move and you can find yourself on your back. Same thing happens in Wrestling, mess up your footwork and get tossed and pinned, game over. These sports don’t give you a second chance either other than rematches months later.

Many other sports are more forgiving but say football, deciding to blitz could work out great, but it could also leave a hole in your defense that gets exploited for a TD. I’ve always though SEC college football is the most entertaining football to me because one big mistake can be the difference in a low scoring defensive battle.

Soccer/Futball we’re seeing a mistake turn into a goal and being a difference maker.

There has to be punishment for mistakes. I think this extreme punishment makes the idea of slowing down and playing it safe a little more valuable. I do wonder, the teams that wiped, what could you have done to prevent the wipes other than “don’t make mistakes”? As someone mentioned earlier, would ele Glyph of Renewal have made a difference? Warriors saving War Banners? Is there anything that could have saved teams from some of the wipes they had other than don’t make mistakes?

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Posted by: EcoRI.9273

EcoRI.9273

FWIW, the idea in my head that makes the most sense is full wipe = done, as before, but allowing anyone to be hard ressed. That way if a boss is killed with 3 defeateds the two remaining guys can hard ress the 3 downs and they can push on. The time loss will be pretty punishing and it will allow for more come backs. But a full wipe has to be final because it means you failed horribly on some execution and its laughable to even consider a team full wiping and then coming back to win.

I don’t like this. Because it can make certain parts of the dungeon less interesting. For Example CoF p1, where our guardian wiped at acolyte. That guardian wipe was definitely an interesting “oh kitten” moment, the rule made it super important that no one messes up, and keeps people on their toes for any potential deaths that will ruin any1’s chances. If this rule was implemented it wouldve been lame. We would’ve ressed our guardian and probably win vs [ren], no body would’ve cared that our guardian wiped.

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(edited by EcoRI.9273)

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Posted by: EcoRI.9273

EcoRI.9273

Even without “no res” rule there is a risk and a reward. If you wipe and have to go back to the waypoint, you lose a lot of time.

And as far as I know, this isn’t a race car tournament (and even in those if you lose one race there are usually 10+ more races left to catch up).

[rT] had a ton of options to recover from the gate at arah p3, they just choked and couldn’t think on the spot. They also had 2/3 chances from the very beginning to win vs [FGS].

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(edited by EcoRI.9273)

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Posted by: Jerus.4350

Jerus.4350

If you are of the camp that “little mistakes can lead to wipes” well… yeah? Thats why Snow Crows won. They didn’t make those kinds of mistakes. They practiced. They had strats nailed down for the paths the other teams selected so they weren’t surprised. They didn’t have stupid wipes because they were prepared and played consistently. Instead of tailoring the rules to suit players who won’t or can’t prepare adequately, those players should re-evaluate their level of effort. But like I said, I am all for tweaking the rules to be more entertaining for spectators and more competitive for the teams, but I would probably oppose anything that made the rules less competitive.

I 100% agree with this, if you are good little mistakes should be kept at a minimum. rT actually made a HUGE mistake in arah p3. First they knew they messed up on the initial stealth. Second the person who got revealed should never have went with the group but instead should’ve went to opposite way to pull the gate mobs away from hunter/crusher. The guy choked, did not know how to reacted to a revealed situation got punished and got his own team killed. This was a mistake that was recoverable. I had times where I got revealed at gate and I ran back to the first waypoint and just waited for my team to 4man hunter/crusher.

Also if the thief managed his traits correctly by speccing into extended stealth, and then respeccing after the stealth, the whole she-bang could’ve been recovered.

If you are good, adapt to bad situations, recorded speed runs you basically follow a spreadsheet routine and hope rng is in your favor. Live speed run is different you need different skillsets.

I like it, though we saw this in the first match. What if both teams wipe and fail to complete the path?

Personally I think we should just do as you said, call it after a team progresses further than the other. But, in that situation we had both teams wipe, one earlier on and one on the final boss. Which led to a draw, and the next path was the decider instead of having it move to a third path.

I actually really wanted to see the third path, but it just wasn’t how the rules were set up, progress only mattered in the third path.

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Posted by: Wethospu.6437

Wethospu.6437

How teleporting to the closest WP favor teams wiping on the first boss?

Just because SC didn’t mess up doesn’t they couldn’t mess up, even if they practiced million times. Everyone does mistakes.

In my opinion allowing people to recover actually makes it more competing (think of any sport).

I think that’s where the 2/3 paths comes in. Make a mistake on one, and you still have another to catch up on forcing a third path. Make a mistake or lose 2 paths and well… you’re done.

Thinking of any sport, lets talk MMA/Boxing, punchers chance, one bad move and you can find yourself on your back. Same thing happens in Wrestling, mess up your footwork and get tossed and pinned, game over. These sports don’t give you a second chance either other than rematches months later.

Many other sports are more forgiving but say football, deciding to blitz could work out great, but it could also leave a hole in your defense that gets exploited for a TD. I’ve always though SEC college football is the most entertaining football to me because one big mistake can be the difference in a low scoring defensive battle.

Soccer/Futball we’re seeing a mistake turn into a goal and being a difference maker.

There has to be punishment for mistakes. I think this extreme punishment makes the idea of slowing down and playing it safe a little more valuable. I do wonder, the teams that wiped, what could you have done to prevent the wipes other than “don’t make mistakes”? As someone mentioned earlier, would ele Glyph of Renewal have made a difference? Warriors saving War Banners? Is there anything that could have saved teams from some of the wipes they had other than don’t make mistakes?

There seemed to be quite big home path advantage (you will very likely win your path even against a better team) so if you mess up on your path it’s pretty much over.

Yes, in sport one bad move can cost you the game. But the game doesn’t usually end there. Team who made the mistake are given a chance for comeback.

You seriously think having to run back and kill the boss again (without FGS) isn’t a punishment? That easily costs you the match unless you can do the path much better than the opponent (or they mess up). But at least they would have a chance.

People talk about diversity. What I’m afraid is that all we are going to see is everyone taking those res skills just in case because of the absurdly high punishment. And everyone running one Guardian. And everyone avoiding any risks.

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Posted by: EcoRI.9273

EcoRI.9273

If you are of the camp that “little mistakes can lead to wipes” well… yeah? Thats why Snow Crows won. They didn’t make those kinds of mistakes. They practiced. They had strats nailed down for the paths the other teams selected so they weren’t surprised. They didn’t have stupid wipes because they were prepared and played consistently. Instead of tailoring the rules to suit players who won’t or can’t prepare adequately, those players should re-evaluate their level of effort. But like I said, I am all for tweaking the rules to be more entertaining for spectators and more competitive for the teams, but I would probably oppose anything that made the rules less competitive.

I 100% agree with this, if you are good little mistakes should be kept at a minimum. rT actually made a HUGE mistake in arah p3. First they knew they messed up on the initial stealth. Second the person who got revealed should never have went with the group but instead should’ve went to opposite way to pull the gate mobs away from hunter/crusher. The guy choked, did not know how to reacted to a revealed situation got punished and got his own team killed. This was a mistake that was recoverable. I had times where I got revealed at gate and I ran back to the first waypoint and just waited for my team to 4man hunter/crusher.

Also if the thief managed his traits correctly by speccing into extended stealth, and then respeccing after the stealth, the whole she-bang could’ve been recovered.

If you are good, adapt to bad situations, recorded speed runs you basically follow a spreadsheet routine and hope rng is in your favor. Live speed run is different you need different skillsets.

I like it, though we saw this in the first match. What if both teams wipe and fail to complete the path?

Personally I think we should just do as you said, call it after a team progresses further than the other. But, in that situation we had both teams wipe, one earlier on and one on the final boss. Which led to a draw, and the next path was the decider instead of having it move to a third path.

I actually really wanted to see the third path, but it just wasn’t how the rules were set up, progress only mattered in the third path.

I personally think progess wipes should be implemented in the first 2 matches as well just so we can speed up the tournament. in the case of that ac story wipe. As soon as the team that stayed alive passed the wiped team’s location, the match should have been over.

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Posted by: EcoRI.9273

EcoRI.9273

How teleporting to the closest WP favor teams wiping on the first boss?

Just because SC didn’t mess up doesn’t they couldn’t mess up, even if they practiced million times. Everyone does mistakes.

In my opinion allowing people to recover actually makes it more competing (think of any sport).

I think that’s where the 2/3 paths comes in. Make a mistake on one, and you still have another to catch up on forcing a third path. Make a mistake or lose 2 paths and well… you’re done.

Thinking of any sport, lets talk MMA/Boxing, punchers chance, one bad move and you can find yourself on your back. Same thing happens in Wrestling, mess up your footwork and get tossed and pinned, game over. These sports don’t give you a second chance either other than rematches months later.

Many other sports are more forgiving but say football, deciding to blitz could work out great, but it could also leave a hole in your defense that gets exploited for a TD. I’ve always though SEC college football is the most entertaining football to me because one big mistake can be the difference in a low scoring defensive battle.

Soccer/Futball we’re seeing a mistake turn into a goal and being a difference maker.

There has to be punishment for mistakes. I think this extreme punishment makes the idea of slowing down and playing it safe a little more valuable. I do wonder, the teams that wiped, what could you have done to prevent the wipes other than “don’t make mistakes”? As someone mentioned earlier, would ele Glyph of Renewal have made a difference? Warriors saving War Banners? Is there anything that could have saved teams from some of the wipes they had other than don’t make mistakes?

There seemed to be quite big home path advantage (you will very likely win your path even against a better team) so if you mess up on your path it’s pretty much over.

Yes, in sport one bad move can cost you the game. But the game doesn’t usually end there. Team who made the mistake are given a chance for comeback.

You seriously think having to run back and kill the boss again (without FGS) isn’t a punishment? That easily costs you the match unless you can do the path much better than the opponent (or they mess up). But at least they would have a chance.

People talk about diversity. What I’m afraid is that all we are going to see is everyone taking those res skills just in case because of the absurdly high punishment. And everyone running one Guardian. And everyone avoiding any risks.

It was not one bad move for [rT]. It was one bad move that cascaded into a series of bad moves. All of which was recoverable until the point where you guys decided to aggro the boss with the mobs.

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(edited by EcoRI.9273)

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Posted by: spoj.9672

spoj.9672

Im all for full wipe being your done. But i believe hard res should be allowed. It slows you down either way. and in some situations you may decide to finish with 4 rather than wasting time picking someone up.

And yeah if there is a full wipe, you should just move on unless the path is almost over. Noone cares about watching a casual run.

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Posted by: maxinion.8396

maxinion.8396

Im all for full wipe being your done. But i believe hard res should be allowed. It slows you down either way. and in some situations you may decide to finish with 4 rather than wasting time picking someone up.

And yeah if there is a full wipe, you should just move on unless the path is almost over. Noone cares about watching a casual run.

This is the best set of suggestions so far.

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Posted by: TurtleDragon.3108

TurtleDragon.3108

Here’s my feedback:

Like others have said, the matches should end as soon as there is a clear winner for the entire series (ie. the CoF story and Arah p3 early wipe). Under the current rules, I believe the two main scenarios in which this happens are in round 2 (0-1 score) when the losing team (0 win team) wipes, and round 3 when the winning team has a reached a point that is “further” than where the other team wiped.

I’d like to see a 2nd stream so that way we can choose which match we want to see. My guild got knocked out in the qualifiers off of the main stream :/. Spreading the tournament out over mulitple days may/may not help too.

(edited by TurtleDragon.3108)

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Posted by: TheMaskedParadigm.3629

TheMaskedParadigm.3629

There seemed to be quite big home path advantage (you will very likely win your path even against a better team) so if you mess up on your path it’s pretty much over.

SC did well in paths that other teams selected, and rT has had pretty much every Arah path 3 record I can remember, as well as being the first guild I can recall to see stealth past the mobs at the gate. That didn’t prevent them from choking and snowballing their mistakes, though.

I usually understand your logic and agree with your points, but I honestly can’t even find the beginning of either in almost all of your posts in this thread. I think there was probably some initial arrogance on rT’s part, maybe the feeling of “we don’t need to practice, we are already better than everyone else” also probably coupled with an actual lack of time to practice. I’ve also heard, pretty much since the beginning of time, that in a lot of cases each member of an rT group treats the dungeon like they are soloing, so you don’t have a group working together, but rather 5 people working alone in the same relative area. I don’t exactly know what happened, I was disappointed to say the least, because I know that plenty of members of your guild are good players. Whatever it was that went on, I don’t think that the no res rule is the solution, because I can see plenty of other potential problems that should probably be addressed first and would have been trivial if they had been taken care of beforehand.

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