Thaddeauz [xQCx]- QC GUILD
Do you think Raids in GW2 were a bad idea?
I would be ok with this. But I don’t think our viewpoint is in vogue at the moment. People want prestige, and acquiring legendary armor through raids is a prestige event. I understand and am ok with this line of reasoning. Given that there’s no stat increase over ascended.
Also, the gorseval infusion is tradable, and people seem ok with it.
Skins and titles are prestige event, not gear. Making 18 different legendary pieces locked behind raids is beyond stupid and contradicts whole GW2 ideology.
Given that legendary has the same stats as ascended (and thus basically a skin), I do see them as prestige items. I don’t see how it contradicts gw2 ideology. Putting aside the trading post (which I agree with you), the original legendaries required world completion, dungeons, and wvw. The new legendaries require HOT map grinding. Doesn’t seem inconsistent that legendary armor requires raids.
Depend. If the raid legendary armor is the only legendary armor available in the game then I agree. If by the time they launch the 3rd wing, they add other legendary armor with different skin in other game mode like PvP, Open World or WvW, then I disagree because then only this particular legendary armor skin is locked behind raids, not the legendary armor as a gear.
Again, it’s EIGHTEEN legendaries. GW2 had eighteen non-underwater legendaries for three years, and now same amount is going to be raid-exclusive? Is there words “World of Warcraft” appeared somewhere in game title?
Kiijna, Xast, Satis Ironwail, Sekhaina, Shira Forgesparkle, Sfeno, Nasibi, Tegeira, Rhonwe…
25 charracters
25 charracters
Depend. If the raid legendary armor is the only legendary armor available in the game then I agree. If by the time they launch the 3rd wing, they add other legendary armor with different skin in other game mode like PvP, Open World or WvW, then I disagree because then only this particular legendary armor skin is locked behind raids, not the legendary armor as a gear.
Again, it’s EIGHTEEN legendaries. GW2 had eighteen non-underwater legendaries for three years, and now same amount is going to be raid-exclusive? Is there words “World of Warcraft” appeared somewhere in game title?
This argument is slightly disingenuous. We don’t know exactly how the collection will work, but the armor will likely be awarded as a set, not individually like weapons. The effort required to acquire legendary armor may be equivalent to one legendary weapon.
Again, it’s EIGHTEEN legendaries. GW2 had eighteen non-underwater legendaries for three years, and now same amount is going to be raid-exclusive? Is there words “World of Warcraft” appeared somewhere in game title?
Slow down there man. You switched your argument just there. You started by saying that skins and title exclusive to raid are ok, but not gear. So if they add other legendary skin outside of raid, then legendary skin exclusive to raid are ok. Do you agree with that or not?
You then swapped your argument to in 3 years we had 18 legendary skins and now 18 will be exclusive to raid. First of all we don’t know and I doubt that 3 Legendary armors will be equal in term of resources than 18 legendary weapons. They most probably will all be of the same theme with similar effect that they can use over most of the skins.
Again, it come back to will they put other legendary armor skin outside of raid or not. If the answer is yes and it’s not like 1 or 2 years after the final introduction of the Legendary armor of raid then I have no problem with a Legendary skin exclusive with raid. I actually love it. If on the side, they don’t plan on creating other legendary armor skins, then I agree with you that it shouldn’t be exclusive to raid. We should be able to get them in a similar manner than legendary weapons.
Thaddeauz [xQCx]- QC GUILD
Who cares about legendary armor? Just make is tradable like other legendaries, if it’s a debating point. Everyone will be happy.
So people would rather pay 3-4K per armour piece then actually go out and try the raid? Is this game that casual still lol.
RP enthusiast
Skins and titles are prestige event, not gear. Making 18 different legendary pieces locked behind raids is beyond stupid and contradicts whole GW2 ideology.
Depend. If the raid legendary armor is the only legendary armor available in the game then I agree. If by the time they launch the 3rd wing, they add other legendary armor with different skin in other game mode like PvP, Open World or WvW, then I disagree because then only this particular legendary armor skin is locked behind raids, not the legendary armor as a gear.
I could see a set of Mainland Tyria of Legendary Armor. I would LOVE to see WVW get some Legendary Love, in the way of Items as well.
I mean, we all know that they removed WvW from map completion, because the Anet team learned that their players did not like being cohered into doing content that they did not like, hopefully they will not make the same mistake with raids today.
Well all know that they are only doing this to spike the interest in this content, so that the numbers look good so they can get the green light to continue it.
As such, if Anet opts to persist down this path of trying to enforce some kind of “Challenge” into the acquisition of Legendary Armor, I do so dearly hope that don’t go half way and stop at the Raids being the only “Challenge” they put.
Since they seem to be a kick in regards to Ranked and Stronghold, they should put those in as Requirements, they would help spike those numbers, so they can get more vested interest into that division, which is what they are looking for.
Also Add in WvW Contribution, like Map Completion to spike some interest into that play style as well, because that seems to be lacking these days, so, forcing the treasure hunters back into that domain would be good for the metrics as well.
Just saying.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
Skins and titles are prestige event, not gear. Making 18 different legendary pieces locked behind raids is beyond stupid and contradicts whole GW2 ideology.
Depend. If the raid legendary armor is the only legendary armor available in the game then I agree.
During AMA they strongly suggested that so far they intend for raids to be the way to get it. If that’s true, then any alternative is many years away.
Who cares about legendary armor? Just make is tradable like other legendaries, if it’s a debating point. Everyone will be happy.
So people would rather pay 3-4K per armour piece then actually go out and try the raid? Is this game that casual still lol.
For a piece? no. For a set? You bet i would. I wouldn’t consider it a good solution, but still farming that money would be far less painful.
Is this game that casual still lol.
Yes, of course it is. Which is why raids currently create a huge problem.
And i don’t understand what you mean by “still”. GW2 will stop being casual the moment it dies (because it’s casuals that are funding it).
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
(edited by Astralporing.1957)
To continue the line of inquiry; it provides legendary armor, but not with the same appearance as the legendary armor from Spirit Vale/Salvation Pass. Would this be up your alley?
Speaking for myself, it is degrees of satisfactory. Each step is better than no step, but still not good enough. Having access to the mechanics of Legendary armor is better than not having the mechanics, but being locked out of a skin that I really want would still suck. Maybe I won’t like the skins at all, but chances are that there will be at least a few pieces that interest me. I just don’t agree with the basic premise that players who complete hard mode raids need some super fancy skin to show off that they’ve completed hard mode raids. If they need a giant virtual codpiece then that’s their issue, but it shouldn’t limit what costume skins are available to me to choose from.
If providing that content to casuals wasn’t viable, then why does it have such a high rate of participation?
It’s not that the uptake in GW2 is terribly high, it’s that the uptake in other games is much lower than most of you assume, at least based on what data other MMOs have actually shared on player rates. That, combined with the relative newness of the raid content has led to a lot of people at least trying them in the first few months. That’s likely to drop at least a little over time as players decide that the content is not for them.
Honestly, I haven’t heard a response to this argument. The only answer I get is “No, I want easy mode raids.” Despite that other content — like arah, like liadri, like jumping puzzles — has no easy mode.
That content does not need easy mode, because it’s already easier than raiding, but if you’d like to see easy mode versions, feel free to request them. Just don’t try to apply an “if you don’t fight for X then you can’t fight for Y” argument, people choose which things matter to them, it’s not for you to choose what things other people should find important.
But that doesn’t mean that anet needs to waste developer resources to produce easy mode raids, when there is already so much content that fills that criteria.
That’s your position, others disagree with it. Ultimately ANet decides how much their time is worth.
Who cares about legendary armor? Just make is tradable like other legendaries, if it’s a debating point. Everyone will be happy.
No, because then it would just be another way for the “elites” to exploit the other players, farming raids to get Legendary armor and making massive piles of gold from it. The gold economy is already a fiasco, it doesn’t need another problem.
If by the time they launch the 3rd wing, they add other legendary armor with different skin in other game mode like PvP, Open World or WvW, then I disagree because then only this particular legendary armor skin is locked behind raids, not the legendary armor as a gear.
You forgot PvE. There still needs to be an open world PvE method of earning them. PvP and WvW are not sufficient.
Putting aside the trading post (which I agree with you), the original legendaries required world completion, dungeons, and wvw.
But the amount of effort involved is relatively minimal. The WvW requirements? Even before the achievements started you could earn the required badges from doing some jumping puzzles, but after the achievements it became trivial to get enough badges without even entering WvW. The dungeons? It look me running two paths a day for less than a week to earn those pieces of the Legendary, less time in total than I’ve spent running Raids so far. The World Completion part was certainly the most time consuming element. People argue that you “have to do everything” to earn the old legendaries, but really most of it is just dabbling, not the “you should expect to play 6-9 hours before you even get started” standard of the raids.
That said, I’ve always been in favor of them providing additional options for Legendary weapons, so if you’re argument is that the current Legendaries make you do things you’d rather not do, the solution is to not make you do those things, not to make new Legendaries be “just as bad.”
So people would rather pay 3-4K per armour piece then actually go out and try the raid? Is this game that casual still lol.
For a piece? no. For a set? You bet i would. I wouldn’t consider it a good solution, but still farming that money would be far less painful.
The thing is, Ascended armor is already expensive enough. I have over a dozen characters to feed here, I could maybe scrape together enough for one set, but I’d need at least three even if I intended to mix and match on my characters, and ideally one for each. Several thousand a set would just be impractical.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
That’s a tricky question, because i don’t actually know how that armor would look like, but i think i can safely say, that if there wasn’t a visible difference in armor quality, that would at least partially satisfy me. Although i dislike the idea of full skin exclusivity locked behind hard content, it’s nowhere close to my dislike of locking out a whole category of gear.
By visible difference in armor quality I’m not entirely sure what you mean. Legendary tag for stat swapping? Armor resolution and texture? Subjective value judgment on which armor set is better looking?
There’s also the stat exclusivity from the new stat spread trinkets available only through raids. But on that point Anet already mentioned they are Doing Something (not at a satisfying pace, but at least they are aware of the problem and seem to agree that it IS a problem, so i guess that will have to suffice for now)
Yeah no argument on that. I don’t understand why they don’t bite the bullet and go for ascended JC; then they never need to do a thing about it.
Nalhadia – Kaineng
@STIHL
It’s merely the fact that hard != excluded therefore your analogy is a fallacy..
Can we please stop this charade that Hard does not mean Exclusive. We all know it does.
That’s absolutely ridiculous. Hard doesn’t mean exclusive it just means its harder.
Sorry for the double post but I think this bear repeating in this thread as well.
Did you know?
That restaurant critics, will visit a place on average around 6 to 8 times before they write a review. Those tense days and weeks between when we first sight them and when it finally hits print are agonizing. We pay attention to those reviews. Those are the reviews that will make or break us.
Places like Google or Yelp or (insert random critique site), garner very small amounts of our attention. We will check them and get a feel for what the general consensus is. Occasionally there will be a scathing post in which we will panic over and analyse for what happened and what we did wrong. We spend approximately 10 minutes on it, Most of the time, its just people that are not going to be happy with anything. So we shoulder it and move on. There are a lot of other people out there that we need to keep making happy.
Every single night, Me and my crew put our hearts and passion on the line. for the whims of our guests. We aren’t in this for money. we are in this because we love what we do.
And there are many a times we will run into people that no matter what we do or how we do it, they are not going to be happy. Well we tried and we will continue to try because its what we do.
There are many people that have been posting on this thread and the forums in general. Concerning Raids or difficulty or how its to hard to get mastery points etc.
These are the people that come into my Fine dining Japanese/ Asian Restaurant. Order Chicken tenders with fries, Complain to me about how I don’t have hamburgers, (yes this does happen), Don’t tip the server and go on to write some review on yelp about how the sushi was improperly prepared.
You have reached a point where your opinions mean nothing. Most of us don’t even read them any more. As they contain no information worth noting. And they will remain as such for a very long time.
The raid team and Arena net in general have, like me, put everything they have on the line for us. the life, their love and passion to create something that they believe in. In hopes that people will enjoy it. Every hour of every day their work is up for scrutiny. Every plate I send out has a little bit of my soul in it. And all we can both do is the best we can and hope people like it.
You want to understand it all? Be able to raid and be able to have those nice things? Sit down at my sushi bar. And ask how to get into it. Rather than telling me how to do my job, Let us do our job and what we love, and help show you what it is that we find so cool.
and /endrambleItalktokitten much
These are the people that come into my Fine dining Japanese/ Asian Restaurant. Order Chicken tenders with fries, Complain to me about how I don’t have hamburgers, (yes this does happen)
GW2 was a hamburger joint that decided overnight they wanted to become a fine dining establishment. Both restaurant types have their place, but when you make a switch like that your old customers are going to be unhappy. And that’s what we’re seeing.
Now the question is whether (1), there’s enough people interested in fine dining to make up for losing their hamburger eaters, and (2) whether the fine diners are going to look past the “stigma” that this place used to be a hamburger joint not long ago.
Looking at the poor sales of HoT, it doesn’t look good.
Wasn’t there a Kitchen Nightmares where this exact thing happened? Maybe Anet should call Gordon Ramsay.
GW2 was a hamburger joint that decided overnight they wanted to become a fine dining establishment. Both restaurant types have their place, but when you make a switch like that your old customers are going to be unhappy. And that’s what we’re seeing.
But they’re still going to make open world, living story and fractal content.
Looking at the poor sales of HoT, it doesn’t look good.
Not necessarily related. You haven’t drawn a correlation between the raids being added and a reduction in users. Conjecture at best.
Nalhadia – Kaineng
These are the people that come into my Fine dining Japanese/ Asian Restaurant. Order Chicken tenders with fries, Complain to me about how I don’t have hamburgers, (yes this does happen)
GW2 was a hamburger joint that decided overnight they wanted to become a fine dining establishment. Both restaurant types have their place, but when you make a switch like that your old customers are going to be unhappy. And that’s what we’re seeing.
Now the question is whether (1), there’s enough people interested in fine dining to make up for losing their hamburger eaters, and (2) whether the fine diners are going to look past the “stigma” that this place used to be a hamburger joint not long ago.
Looking at the poor sales of HoT, it doesn’t look good.
Wasn’t there a Kitchen Nightmares where this exact thing happened? Maybe Anet should call Gordon Ramsay.
This is a ridiculous analogy, NONE of the old content went away.
This is a ridiculous analogy, NONE of the old content went away.
Nitpicking analogies is an easy target. There is never an analogy that 100% represents every possible aspect of the situation at once, otherwise it would just be explaining the situation itself. The purpose of an analogy is to highlight one specific point of the situation, and attempting to point out elements where it is dissimilar to the analogy is like beating up on an infant. You could do it, you just shouldn’t and it isn’t likely to help anything.
The point is, the game ran a certain way, HoT changed several things about how the game runs that annoyed many of the regular customers, whether you agree with their reasoning or not is irrelevant. The question is whether the new customers they’ve gained are worth more to them than the existing customers that they’ve made to feel alienated and underappreciated.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
I understand the point being made by the analogy, its just that its wrong because
HoT changed NOTHING about how the old content worked, NOTHING.
The point is, the game ran a certain way, HoT changed several things about how the game runs that annoyed many of the regular customers, whether you agree with their reasoning or not is irrelevant. The question is whether the new customers they’ve gained are worth more to them than the existing customers that they’ve made to feel alienated and underappreciated.
What if the amount of those “regular” customers wasn’t as high as Anet wanted so they made changes to bring more players into the game, including players that left the game due to its older direction?
I understand the point being made by the analogy, its just that its wrong because
HoT changed NOTHING about how the old content worked, NOTHING.
But MMOs are an every-evolving product. Leaving the old stuff alone doesn’t mean a whole lot when the new stuff shoots off in a different direction. The new stuff has to retain familiarity to the old stuff. More old stuff.
What if the amount of those “regular” customers wasn’t as high as Anet wanted so they made changes to bring more players into the game, including players that left the game due to its older direction?
That may be necessary, but there’s no indication that the difficulty changes added more players than it could potentially lose over the long term. The point is, GW2 is never likely to grow substantially as a “hardcore” MMO, player populations rarely grow significantly after launch, and GW2 has done a remarkable job so far at being stable relative to other MMOs, largely by appealing to an audience that felt out of place in other MMOs due to the exact things HoT brought to the table. There’s still enough of GW2 to keep people playing, but if the game continues to move further and further away from what made GW2 more attractive than the competition, then more and more players might tune out.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
That’s a tricky question, because i don’t actually know how that armor would look like, but i think i can safely say, that if there wasn’t a visible difference in armor quality, that would at least partially satisfy me. Although i dislike the idea of full skin exclusivity locked behind hard content, it’s nowhere close to my dislike of locking out a whole category of gear.
By visible difference in armor quality I’m not entirely sure what you mean. Legendary tag for stat swapping? Armor resolution and texture? Subjective value judgment on which armor set is better looking?
There have been suggestions that if there is going to be an “open world” legendary armor, it should be visibly inferior to the raid one, so either drab and dull, or intentionally ugly. I’m refering to that – if there’s going to be an alternative, i’d expect artists to put as much effort into it as in raid legendary. I’d rather not have “tiers” of legendaries.
There’s also the stat exclusivity from the new stat spread trinkets available only through raids. But on that point Anet already mentioned they are Doing Something (not at a satisfying pace, but at least they are aware of the problem and seem to agree that it IS a problem, so i guess that will have to suffice for now)
Yeah no argument on that. I don’t understand why they don’t bite the bullet and go for ascended JC; then they never need to do a thing about it.
Yeah, Jeweller is definitely needing that upgrade badly. That would solve a lot of problems.
I understand the point being made by the analogy, its just that its wrong because
HoT changed NOTHING about how the old content worked, NOTHING.
It started serving sushi in a hamburger joint, and treat people asking for sushi better than the old clientele.
The point is, the game ran a certain way, HoT changed several things about how the game runs that annoyed many of the regular customers, whether you agree with their reasoning or not is irrelevant. The question is whether the new customers they’ve gained are worth more to them than the existing customers that they’ve made to feel alienated and underappreciated.
What if the amount of those “regular” customers wasn’t as high as Anet wanted so they made changes to bring more players into the game, including players that left the game due to its older direction?
It may be so. But they still outnumber the raiders by a large margin, so making them feel they are second category citizens is most likely not a good idea. Probably getting more of the old style clientele interested would have been a far better strategy.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
(edited by Astralporing.1957)
That may be necessary, but there’s no indication that the difficulty changes added more players than it could potentially lose over the long term.
There were players leaving a couple of months after release. A lot of them were Guild Wars 1 players who expected GW1 with better graphics, but others left because the game didn’t offer enough long-term goals, that’s why they added Ascended gear. They always made changes to the game but you can’t see the results of said changes instantly, sometimes it requires a couple of months, other times a much longer time.
HoT didn’t actually increase the difficulty of the game, despite what many players are saying. Everything in HoT is a refined version of LS1, harder/challenging enemies, events that require hour-long participation, events that START at certain times and of course unique rewards and achievements available only through that new content.
All the comments about HoT difficulty are from players who probably have a very short memory and forgot LS1, or they weren’t there when LS1 was a thing. Of course it’s also Anet’s fault for removing LS1 content…
It may be so. But they still outnumber the raiders by a large margin, so making them feel they are second category citizens is most likely not a good idea.
WvW players to this day are still treated like second class citizens.
PVP players got something to do just this November, the other tournaments were all about the elite esports and not normal human players. Also second class citizens.
Instanced content players (dungeons/fractals) have been neglected for about 2 years, since the last piece of content was added for them. Also second class citizens.
They need to cater to everyone. Their LS release schedule wasn’t helping, having to make new PVE content every 2 weeks was obviously taxing their resources too hard. But now they -hopefully- got different teams working for different parts of the playerbase and those neglected will get some much needed love.
It may be so. But they still outnumber the raiders by a large margin, so making them feel they are second category citizens is most likely not a good idea.
WvW players to this day are still treated like second class citizens.
And that’s bad, i agree. And they have likely originally outnumbered the raiders too (though nowadays that may no longer be true).
PVP players got something to do just this November, the other tournaments were all about the elite esports and not normal human players. Also second class citizens.
Instanced content players (dungeons/fractals) have been neglected for about 2 years, since the last piece of content was added for them. Also second class citizens.They need to cater to everyone. Their LS release schedule wasn’t helping, having to make new PVE content every 2 weeks was obviously taxing their resources too hard. But now they -hopefully- got different teams working for different parts of the playerbase and those neglected will get some much needed love.
Oh, you are going to suggest that nowadays almost everyone except raiders are second class citizens? I agree, that’s what i was saying from the very beginning.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Oh, you are going to suggest that nowadays almost everyone except raiders are second class citizens? I agree, that’s what i was saying from the very beginning.
This is really weird.
“The people who got the last set of content patches are the chosen people of anet! Everyone else is second class citizens!”
So when Living Story starts again, then the raiders will be second class citizens? When a new PvP map is added, all PvE and WvWers will be second class citizens? When WvW revamp happens, everyone else is a second class citizen?
Nalhadia – Kaineng
There were players leaving a couple of months after release.
Sure, but most of those players are gone and never coming back. Some returned with the raids and stuff, I’m sure someone’s going to chime in “I did!,” but not many. Most moved on to other products and stopped bothering with GW2, because that’s how video games work. GW2 was a very different game than GW1, most players of GW2 recognized this and welcomed the change, giving GW2 a much better community than any other MMO out there.
HoT didn’t actually increase the difficulty of the game, despite what many players are saying. Everything in HoT is a refined version of LS1, harder/challenging enemies, events that require hour-long participation, events that START at certain times and of course unique rewards and achievements available only through that new content.
I recognize that, but they were doubling down on elements people were telling them they DIDN’T like about the Maguuma Wastes maps, and it’s not just that the story areas were made more difficult, it’s that the open world maps were made more difficult. I mean, I’d done plenty of Silverwastes content prior to HoT, and I was still getting obliterated in a lot of the HoT beta content. A lot of that was “l2p,” and I’ve since improved significantly, but for casual players it was a VERY steep curve, too steep, I think.
All the comments about HoT difficulty are from players who probably have a very short memory and forgot LS1, or they weren’t there when LS1 was a thing. Of course it’s also Anet’s fault for removing LS1 content…
Wait, which content are you talking about, exactly? Aetherblade/molten alliance type stuff? That was kids’ stuff compared to equivalent HoT content.
WvW players to this day are still treated like second class citizens.
PVP players got something to do just this November, the other tournaments were all about the elite esports and not normal human players. Also second class citizens.
Yes, because they make up relatively tiny portions of the players, and thus are only owed a tiny portion of the attention. The problem is not that they have to allocate resources to specific projects, the problem is that they do not seem to be allocating them towards the largest audiences.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Oh, you are going to suggest that nowadays almost everyone except raiders are second class citizens? I agree, that’s what i was saying from the very beginning.
Well during the LS releases everyone except general PVE players was a second class citizen. Did you complain back then about it? I guess not because you got content every 2 weeks while everyone else got a pile of nothing.
What they did with the PVP leagues has the potential to become permanent, a new league every couple of months to keep PVP players busy, and new unique rewards with the next League, I doubt the Ascension will always be the reward from the Leagues, as more and more players get it, we will get to the next one. Who knows maybe it will be legendary armor next, once they finally fix matchmaking and all the other things that plague PVP atm. A subset of the company, working for a subset of the playerbase.
What they are doing with Raids also has the potential to become permanent. New Raid wings appearing at regular intervals, new rewards for them and so on to keep Raiders busy. Maybe the next Raid will offer a Legendary backpack to keep in line with PVP/Fractals. A subset of the company, working for a subset of the playerbase.
We can all hope that there is an actual WvW team working on WvW. They said the beta test for new WvW updates will start in April, and maybe in a few months WvW will enter a regular update process just like Raids and PVP. Maybe once their revamp is complete, they’ll add legendary backpack, and even legendary armor to the list of WvW rewards. A subset fo the company, working for a subset of the playerbase.
Now, if someday they add SAB as semi-permanent addition (yearly) with a team working on new SAB releases every year to make content for jumping puzzle lovers that would be grant. I have faith we’ll get it in April. Probably not getting legendary backpack or armor in SAB, but who knows. A subset of the company, working for a subset of the playerbase.
The majority of the company, outside of these much smaller teams, is working on an expansion and the new upcoming living world. It’s still the bulk of the development time, and money, since that’s what the majority of the population want. Splitting responsibility and having different teams working on different types of content that is good for different people is essential to make the game a success. Having everyone working to keep a 2-week release schedule for PVE alone is not good for business, in the process they neglect everyone else.
Well during the LS releases everyone except general PVE players was a second class citizen. Did you complain back then about it?
Again, no, because . . . Look, you do understand the idea that the majority of the population deserves the majority of the resources, right? I mean, this should be common sense, but you really seem like there’s something about it you aren’t getting. Where is the disconnect?
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Sure, but most of those players are gone and never coming back.
You’d be surprised at how many people get back to games when they actually release content for them. Of course that’s provided they liked the general gameplay of it (combat system). There is no combat system like GW2 out there, yet, so if I was a WvW-only player that loved the GW2 combat system but left because they neglected it, of course I’ll get back if they ever revamp it and make it good again.
I recognize that, but they were doubling down on elements people were telling them they DIDN’T like about the Maguuma Wastes maps, and it’s not just that the story areas were made more difficult, it’s that the open world maps were made more difficult.
I don’t think HoT zones in general PVE are much harder. Once you know how to counter the mobs they become much easier. I still remember when Terragriffs made their appearance, a lot of people didn’t know how to handle them and died. If you learn how to fight them they aren’t as hard, just like all the other LS mobs.
Wait, which content are you talking about, exactly? Aetherblade/molten alliance type stuff? That was kids’ stuff compared to equivalent HoT content.
as an example, what was the real difference between Dragon’s Stand and Battle for Lion’s Arch?
Yes, because they make up relatively tiny portions of the players, and thus are only owed a tiny portion of the attention. The problem is not that they have to allocate resources to specific projects, the problem is that they do not seem to be allocating them towards the largest audiences.
They are a relatively small portion of the playerbase and thus they get a small portion of the developers, and that’s actually true. 5% of the company working for 5% of the playerbase, be it WvW, PVP, Raids (instanced content players) or even SAB (jumping puzzle players).
Everyone deserves content that is built for them. And having a dedicated team that works specifically for them is the way to do it, they are not some second class citizens that they will work on when they get free time from other projects for the so called “majority”.
And that’s what we begin to see, dedicated teams working on specific aspects of the game, while the bulk of the company is working on an expansion and the living world.
Well during the LS releases everyone except general PVE players was a second class citizen. Did you complain back then about it?
Again, no, because . . . Look, you do understand the idea that the majority of the population deserves the majority of the resources, right? I mean, this should be common sense, but you really seem like there’s something about it you aren’t getting. Where is the disconnect?
During LS releases it wasn’t that the majority got most of the attention, they got ALL of the attention.The majority of the population gets the majority of the developers, why is having smaller dedicated teams (as we apparently do now) for other specific parts of the game such a hard concept to grasp?
You’d be surprised at how many people get back to games when they actually release content for them. Of course that’s provided they liked the general gameplay of it (combat system). There is no combat system like GW2 out there, yet, so if I was a WvW-only player that loved the GW2 combat system but left because they neglected it, of course I’ll get back if they ever revamp it and make it good again.
Your experience is not typical of the industry.
I don’t think HoT zones in general PVE are much harder. Once you know how to counter the mobs they become much easier.
. . .
“Once you improve in skill, they aren’t as hard anymore.” Well, obviously. The point is that they do need pretty specific direct counters, something that previous open world content didn’t do much of, especially the vanilla stuff. I mean, sure, you can choose to rope-a-dope Ettins if you like, but if you don’t, you’ll still probably beat them anyway. Try to face-tank a Mordrem Sniper and it won’t go well for you.
as an example, what was the real difference between Dragon’s Stand and Battle for Lion’s Arch?
The mobs in Lion’s Arch were considerably easier. Dragon’s Stand does a better job of funneling players, especially now with squads, better UI, that sort of thing, but assuming you could coordinate yourself well on a strategic level during BfLA, then individual tactical combat was fairly straightforward. Dragon’s Stand isn’t even the hardest meta though, just the most concentrated. The original Chak Garrant was much more challenging.
They are a relatively small portion of the playerbase and thus they get a small portion of the developers, and that’s actually true. 5% of the company working for 5% of the playerbase, be it WvW, PVP, Raids (instanced content players) or even SAB (jumping puzzle players).
And yet raids have seen a rather significant release, by the time raid wing 3 is out it’ll be equivalent to the better part of an HoT map in terms of content, and nothing on the horizon for non-raiders. Now some of that may be down to ANet not talking about things until they’re done, but it’s still very worrying to PvEers. When I bought HoT, it was on the assumption that it would have a long post-release tail like the launch game did. If it turns out that we’ve already seen most of what we’ll get before the next expansion, then I would think long and heard before dropping a penny on it.
The majority of the population gets the majority of the developers, why is having smaller dedicated teams (as we apparently do now) for other specific parts of the game such a hard concept to grasp?
You keep insisting on the “small” size of the team, when all we know is that the core team is only 5-6 people. We have no idea of the size of the core teams for the other elements of the game, nor do we know how many pool team members were involved. If ONLY six people ever touched the raids then those are clearly each worth any ten other employees at the company, given what they’ve produced. It’s not about the number of bodies thrown at any given task, it’s what they are capable of achieving. The raids are an achievement, we’d just like to be able to share in the outcome.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
During LS releases it wasn’t that the majority got most of the attention, they got ALL of the attention.
Suure. There weren’t any new dungeons during LS, or WvW tournaments, or sPvP tournaments or…
oh, wait.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Your experience is not typical of the industry.
It’s not my experience. It’s what happens. And GW2 was created with that mindset if you remember, that’s why they have no monthly fee, so you can go in and out as you please.
The point is that they do need pretty specific direct counters, something that previous open world content didn’t do much of, especially the vanilla stuff.
Of course vanilla didn’t do any of it. But even the first major content releases had mobs that required a bit more thinking like the karka or the reef drakes. The Young Karka specifically were a bane for many early players, until they understood what CC and reflect is. Other LS1/LS2 mobs required more thinking as well which was a good thing for the game, since vanilla was mostly brainless. That’s why removing the LS1 content was a terrible idea, because all players had to compare HoT to was vanilla… not the much harder LS mobs. (Hence my short memory comment)
The mobs in Lion’s Arch were considerably easier. Dragon’s Stand does a better job of funneling players, especially now with squads, better UI, that sort of thing, but assuming you could coordinate yourself well on a strategic level during BfLA, then individual tactical combat was fairly straightforward. Dragon’s Stand isn’t even the hardest meta though, just the most concentrated. The original Chak Garrant was much more challenging.
I wouldn’t call them considerably easier. Mobs of the Molten and Toxic Alliance had their own unique abilities. They were easier than some HoT mobs but they were also an excellent bridge between GW2 and GW2:HoT.
And yet raids have seen a rather significant release, by the time raid wing 3 is out it’ll be equivalent to the better part of an HoT map in terms of content, and nothing on the horizon for non-raiders.
The Raid was mostly finished before Heart of Thorns release. Then they got guild teams to playtest it, after they first became familiar with HoT mechanics and the elite specs. Wing 3 is also mostly done. The point is, the entire Raid could’ve been released in November, the reason they didn’t was for pacing. Splitting the community that is doing Raids over 3 Wings would make forming teams harder, over-complicate things for those who find new builds, and in general don’t help at all. The Raid, is NOT taking up resources for the open world, the major guilds that were invited to test the Raid, tested both Wing 1, Wing 2 and probably even Wing 3 already. To repeat: the Raid release is NOT “wasting” resources from other parts of the game. It’s already finished.
You keep insisting on the “small” size of the team, when all we know is that the core team is only 5-6 people. We have no idea of the size of the core teams for the other elements of the game, nor do we know how many pool team members were involved. If ONLY six people ever touched the raids then those are clearly each worth any ten other employees at the company, given what they’ve produced. It’s not about the number of bodies thrown at any given task, it’s what they are capable of achieving. The raids are an achievement, we’d just like to be able to share in the outcome.
The Core team is small, as are all the core teams for the other aspects of the game. That was rather confirmed by the size of the Raid team. What’s left are artists and a much limited number of developers. All 3 wings were at the final stages of completion when HoT was released. Who is to say when this small Raid team started working on the Raids? Maybe even 1 year ago, maybe even longer. It’s not like they started working on Wing 3 NOW, Wing 3 is already mostly DONE.
During LS releases it wasn’t that the majority got most of the attention, they got ALL of the attention.
Suure. There weren’t any new dungeons during LS, or WvW tournaments, or sPvP tournaments or…
oh, wait.
There were no sPVP tournaments that I remember during the LS, only some aimed at the real pro esports teams, nothing for the “normal” PVPer.
There were dungeons included during the LS. From another thread:
In 2012: Ascend to Madness, Fractals of the Mists (massive dungeon update less than 3 months after release), Tixx’s Infinirarium (yes it was a dungeon)
In 2013: Molten Facility, Canach’s Lair (advertised as dungeon, although it was more like a single fight, I remember the rage when it wasn’t an actual dungeon), Aetherblade Retreat, Aetherpath, Fractured update got us 1 new Fractal and 4 re-releases of old dungeons as fractals (Thaumanova Reactor, Molten Furnace, Aetherblade, Captain Mai Trin Boss and Molten Boss)
Fractured update was the last fractal/dungeon update. Fractured is the release launched on November 26, 2013 and since Fractured we got 6 more LS1 releases without a single dungeon/fractal, a big Feature Pack and then the Entire LS2, meaning 2 whole years of LS updates without a single dungeon/fractal.
So yeah dungeons/fractals got ZERO attention. But as you can clearly see (and noticed) that wasn’t the case during the first LS updates, in fact there were regular dungeon additions. What happened?
It’s not my experience. It’s what happens. And GW2 was created with that mindset if you remember, that’s why they have no monthly fee, so you can go in and out as you please.
Typically though, and this is not a personal observation it’s something reported all across the MMO industry, players who leave a game for long periods of time, particularly if they were dissatisfied with the general state when they left it, rarely return to the game no matter what major changes take place. When games go from sub to F2P, for example, they tend to pick up more totally new players than they do returning veterans.
Of course vanilla didn’t do any of it. But even the first major content releases had mobs that required a bit more thinking like the karka or the reef drakes. The Young Karka specifically were a bane for many early players, until they understood what CC and reflect is.
And at each of these steps, I can recall significant push-back from the players, which Anet promptly ignored with their next release. The more the players get pushed, the more compressed their rage becomes.
I wouldn’t call them considerably easier. Mobs of the Molten and Toxic Alliance had their own unique abilities. They were easier than some HoT mobs but they were also an excellent bridge between GW2 and GW2:HoT.
You were arguing that they were equivalent. They certainly had mechanics, but their mechanics were far less vital to success than against HoT mobs, especially given that you would almost always encounter them while in large zergs, while HoT mobs are more likely to be encountered while soloing. The mobs are less of an issue in Dragon’s Stand than they were in Auric Basin or Tangled Depths.
The Raid, is NOT taking up resources for the open world, the major guilds that were invited to test the Raid, tested both Wing 1, Wing 2 and probably even Wing 3 already. To repeat: the Raid release is NOT “wasting” resources from other parts of the game. It’s already finished.
That’s kind of a nonsense argument (and in your following paragraph). Say you’re right and they are “done” with the first raid right now. Well the time spend working on it, whether now or six months ago, is still time that could have been spent on other projects, and which would have resulted in those projects being finished sooner than we got them (or of higher quality, in some way superior to what we’ve seen so far).
It’s a distraction to make a big point about what they may or may not be working on right this minute. But even that aside, chances are if they are finished the third wing, the raid team is doing something, presumably working on R2W1 (they totally should have called raid wings “divisions!”).
There were no sPVP tournaments that I remember during the LS, only some aimed at the real pro esports teams, nothing for the “normal” PVPer.
I was never that into the PvP scene, but I seem to remember them having something like a league season way before HoT, just a lot looser than the current one.
So yeah dungeons/fractals got ZERO attention. But as you can clearly see (and noticed) that wasn’t the case during the first LS updates, in fact there were regular dungeon additions. What happened?
From what they told us, not enough people actually played them to justify the added effort, so they reallocated resources where it would be better spent. Don’t blame ANet for not making enough dungeon stuff, blame the players for not caring.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Typically though, and this is not a personal observation it’s something reported all across the MMO industry, players who leave a game for long periods of time, particularly if they were dissatisfied with the general state when they left it, rarely return to the game no matter what major changes take place. When games go from sub to F2P, for example, they tend to pick up more totally new players than they do returning veterans.
Going sub to F2P doesn’t mean adding content you like. But the entire promise of the no-sub fee for Guild Wars 2 was the “without a sub you can return any time you wish”. Unless they were completely mistaken with it.
And at each of these steps, I can recall significant push-back from the players, which Anet promptly ignored with their next release. The more the players get pushed, the more compressed their rage becomes.
The whole idea of having a good combat system is to use it. Vanilla GW2 barely required anything other than auto-attacks. I wouldn’t call the rage significant, and where it was really significant and spot-on there’ve been changes, like removing retaliation from Mordrem wolves or nerfing the damage of Mordrem Snipers after the HoT beta test.
There is L2P issues and valid complaints, the Young Karka are a clear L2P issue for those that die to them, the Mordrem Wolves were clearly over-performing and when it was clear that you’d fight lots of them at once in SW, they needed a nerf.
The mobs are less of an issue in Dragon’s Stand than they were in Auric Basin or Tangled Depths.
Well of course you fought the LS1 mobs mostly in big groups and that was one of the major problems of removing LS1 in the first place. If the LS1 content was still here it would mean many more players would’ve fought the mobs outside big groups too. So the transition to HoT mobs would be much easier. Getting carried and hiding in huge blobs was a major thing in LS1, maybe that’s why we got LS2 now.
Perhaps when LS1 is brought back something will change. Maybe?
Well the time spend working on it, whether now or six months ago, is still time that could have been spent on other projects, and which would have resulted in those projects being finished sooner than we got them (or of higher quality, in some way superior to what we’ve seen so far)
The Raid is part of the expansion called Heart of Thorns and a small part of it. The PVE side got a lot of additions with HoT, but part of them weren’t liked by some players. Similar to how WvW got a massive new map with a lot of new mechanics and ideas, but it was also not liked. That doesn’t mean Raids took most of the development time (or even a high percentage of it) at all.
It’s a distraction to make a big point about what they may or may not be working on right this minute. But even that aside, chances are if they are finished the third wing, the raid team is doing something, presumably working on R2W1 (they totally should have called raid wings “divisions!”).
Well since the team is done with their current Raid, it wouldn’t be far fetched that they are working on the next Raid. Maybe at the design phase or early concept phase that can be done by the small raid team and doesn’t require investment by the rest of the devs? So the rest are free to work on anything else until it’s time to draw somer resources to help shape up the Raid 2? That’s the most probable way of doing this, if their project manager has some common sense…
I was never that into the PvP scene, but I seem to remember them having something like a league season way before HoT, just a lot looser than the current one.
There were some automated tournaments at release, even awarding gems to the top teams. But that was a release thing, it didn’t come throught the LS, but maybe there were more that I forgot.
From what they told us, not enough people actually played them to justify the added effort, so they reallocated resources where it would be better spent. Don’t blame ANet for not making enough dungeon stuff, blame the players for not caring.
When did they say something so horrible? Not enough players running dungeons? What?
Going sub to F2P doesn’t mean adding content you like. But the entire promise of the no-sub fee for Guild Wars 2 was the “without a sub you can return any time you wish”. Unless they were completely mistaken with it.
Sure, but usually that just means “I’m taking off a few weeks or months because they haven’t added new stuff,” rather than “I dislike the general style of play within the first three months, so I will quit for three years but then come right back when I hear that they added raids.” Again, there are probably anecdotal examples of that happening, but I highly doubt it occurred in large numbers.
There is L2P issues and valid complaints, the Young Karka are a clear L2P issue for those that die to them,
Or a “play a class with reflect and slot that ability, even if it doesn’t otherwise suit what you’d want to be doing” issue.
The Raid is part of the expansion called Heart of Thorns and a small part of it. The PVE side got a lot of additions with HoT, but part of them weren’t liked by some players.
Yeah, but not yet enough to justify a full expansion. Again, it depends on how long the expansion’s tail is, but the further they push back updates, the more worrying that is. They’ve made no promises that we can expect a certain amount of additional content to come, so people that paid full price for the expansion are starting to worry that the naysayers were right.
That doesn’t mean Raids took most of the development time (or even a high percentage of it) at all.
I’m not saying that they took most of the development time, but they clearly took at least some development time and did some pretty impressive stuff with it, so that development time could have been spent creating content of equivalent scale and complexity for the masses. If raids are eventually opened up to all players then it might become worth it, but if they remain tied to niche ideas of “difficult content,” then I think the time might have been better spent on more broad projects, like a 5th HoT open world map. I mean the two current wings take up more space than Southsun, and once completed looks to be on the same scale as Auric Basin or Dragon’s Stand.
Maybe at the design phase or early concept phase that can be done by the small raid team and doesn’t require investment by the rest of the devs? So the rest are free to work on anything else until it’s time to draw somer resources to help shape up the Raid 2? That’s the most probable way of doing this, if their project manager has some common sense…
Or they could actually be deep into raid 2 already, pulling resources from other projects to actually accomplish portions of it. We don’t know. You’re trying to assume the most “low impact” scenario possible, but that’s not the only one on the table. We don’t know when they expect raid 2 to drop, but if we imagine it would be for fall or winter of 2017, they probably would be starting it soon.
There were some automated tournaments at release, even awarding gems to the top teams. But that was a release thing, it didn’t come throught the LS, but maybe there were more that I forgot.
I think this is the one I was thinking of:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tournament_of_Glory
I know the endgame of it was the pro-leagues, but my understanding was that any amateurs could at least get something out of dabbling in it. In any case, they did make changes to both PvP and WvW over the course of the “living world” period of development, such as the wardrobe/glory overhauls, the first WvW borderlands overhaul (the lake), Edge of the Mists, some new PvP maps, etc. I’m sure it was never enough for people that only cared about those modes, but the whole point of PvP is that the players are meant to generate their own “content,” it’s not meant to be a very resource-intensive part of the game.
When did they say something so horrible? Not enough players running dungeons? What?
No way I could tell you exactly where, some dev response to a reddit AMA or something, but yeah, TA Aetherpath, the Molten Furnace, the LA Aetherblade dungeon, they all underperformed their expectations and discouraged them a bit from future dungeon add-ons. People were farming the standard dungeons to a point, but not enough to justify a serious commitment to future development. They tried more dungeon loot, that worked to a point, but then trailed off. They tried adding new Fractals and overhauling them a bit. That barely did anything. They have recently tried overhauling Fractals again, I think this one worked a bit better, but it’s still a bit meh. GW2 is just not a dungeon-centric game. A lot of the players it attracted are those burned out of doing dungeon-like activities in other games.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
I understand the point being made by the analogy, its just that its wrong because
HoT changed NOTHING about how the old content worked, NOTHING.
Really? I mean REALLY
Fractal, Dungeon, Guild, WvW, ya nothing changed you are right lol
Thaddeauz [xQCx]- QC GUILD
Sure, but usually that just means “I’m taking off a few weeks or months because they haven’t added new stuff,” rather than “I dislike the general style of play within the first three months, so I will quit for three years but then come right back when I hear that they added raids.” Again, there are probably anecdotal examples of that happening, but I highly doubt it occurred in large numbers.
Well I gave an example about those who expected GW1 with better graphics, those left and will never come back. But in the second example I gave about WvW, if I like the general combat system, when a major update for WvW comes I will check it out again. Of course that also depends if there are other choices (other games) that offer a better world pvp experience, which for a long time, wasn’t the case. Now there are some more options though, that’s why the WvW overhaul is looooooong overdue.
As for Raids, if someone left the game during the first few months, they won’t come back for Raids for sure, it means they didn’t like the game’s instanced content at all. However, a dedicated dungeon/fractal runner who left because that content type was abandoned for 2 whole years might very well come back to check on Raids. In other words, if you didn’t like instanced content in GW2 you won’t come back for Raids, if you liked it but left because there were no updates for years, there is a good chance you’ll come back.
Or a “play a class with reflect and slot that ability, even if it doesn’t otherwise suit what you’d want to be doing” issue.
Reflects are good but they are not the only way to deal with Young Karka. All classes can CC them and kill them before they recover. Or dodge forward towards them to avoid their big spray attack. It’s the same thing with HoT mobs really, all classes have the tools to fight them, it’s just some players deliberately don’t want to use them.
Yeah, but not yet enough to justify a full expansion.
I agree. HoT was small and the “three biomes” line wasn’t exactly true in the end.
I’m not saying that they took most of the development time, but they clearly took at least some development time and did some pretty impressive stuff with it, so that development time could have been spent creating content of equivalent scale and complexity for the masses.
Maybe the upcoming content we will get and the HoT map revamp will be equally impressive. But I DO believe that aside from the timers and the need to be with lots of other players, all HoT maps are impressive. Design/graphic wise the maps are great, the enemies are well designed, and the events too. I’m going to give credit to the entire team for doing impressive stuff and not just the Raid team. Maybe they thought HoT maps would be “enough” for the masses.
We don’t know.
Yes of course we don’t. I am going with what I believe is common sense. Raids are currently a very risky investment, like their “one time event” policy they had at release (remember Lost Shores?). If the adoption rate isn’t high enough after a couple of months then they might drop the entire concept completely and we won’t see another Raid ever. Just like how they changed their “one time event” into the Living World. Working on the next step full-time while the first one is still under heavy discussion isn’t a very sane idea from a management standpoint. Too much of a risk in my opinion, but hey it’s not my money on the line.
I think this is the one I was thinking of:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tournament_of_Glory
Oh right that one.
I’m sure it was never enough for people that only cared about those modes, but the whole point of PvP is that the players are meant to generate their own “content,” it’s not meant to be a very resource-intensive part of the game.
It’s not about resource allocation but about failing to respond to what the players need. There is a serious problem if 2 out of 3 of the new PVP maps aren’t liked at all, it is a serious problem when the new WVW map (eotm) isn’t liked either, at least not by the core audience of WVW, non-WVW players love EotM but for all the wrong reasons. The amount of resources they give to PVP is fine, excluding the ridiculous prizes at the PVP tournaments, what they did with it though is not fine. And I’m not sure how to fix it either.
No way I could tell you exactly where, some dev response to a reddit AMA or something, but yeah, TA Aetherpath, the Molten Furnace, the LA Aetherblade dungeon, they all underperformed their expectations and discouraged them a bit from future dungeon add-ons.
That’s interesting. I always thought both Molten Furnace and Aetherblade Retreat were a success but Aetherpath not so much. I wonder what kind of expectations they had for those… and what kind of expectations they have for Raids.
The point is, the game ran a certain way, HoT changed several things about how the game runs that annoyed many of the regular customers, whether you agree with their reasoning or not is irrelevant. The question is whether the new customers they’ve gained are worth more to them than the existing customers that they’ve made to feel alienated and underappreciated.
What if the amount of those “regular” customers wasn’t as high as Anet wanted so they made changes to bring more players into the game, including players that left the game due to its older direction?
That’s exactly what happened. Anet wanted more customers and was willing to sacrifice the old regulars. The problem is their gamble didn’t pay off (HoT sales were quite low).
As for players who quit a long time ago, people thought they would flood back into the game with the release of HoT but it didn’t happen at all. In WvW, for example, everyone was predicting a population boom of returning players that would, at least temporarily, take care of the drastic population disparities between servers. Nothing like that happened.
It seems for most people, you get one chance at their business. Once they leave, they’re not coming back.
When did they say something so horrible? Not enough players running dungeons? What?
From what i remember, they completely misunderstood the reasons why people weren’t overjoyed with Twilight Assault, and projected it onto dungeons in general.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
There are many people that have been posting on this thread and the forums in general. Concerning Raids or difficulty or how its to hard to get mastery points etc.
These are the people that come into my Fine dining Japanese/ Asian Restaurant. Order Chicken tenders with fries, Complain to me about how I don’t have hamburgers, (yes this does happen), Don’t tip the server and go on to write some review on yelp about how the sushi was improperly prepared.
You have reached a point where your opinions mean nothing. Most of us don’t even read them any more. As they contain no information worth noting. And they will remain as such for a very long time.
I’m very much in the corner of raiders as far as things like raid nerfs go. However, a lot of the objections to the raiding community in any game come down to their being opinionated and rude. This post goes a long way to confirming that view. Characterizing people you disagree with as ignorant is not good advertising for your later offer to "help’ these people.
As an entrepreneur, you would know that while certain reviews matter and other reviews don’t, what really matters is sales. That you love your work and aren’t doing it primarily for money is great. However, you do need to be able to keep the doors open. Also, I’d guess you aren’t wholly owned by another company that does care primarily about money. ANet is in the middle (reportedly) of revamping HoT. They would not be doing so if they believed those complaints did not matter. Now, which complaints they’ve listened to is anyone’s guess.
Good luck with your restaurant.
When did they say something so horrible? Not enough players running dungeons? What?
From what i remember, they completely misunderstood the reasons why people weren’t overjoyed with Twilight Assault, and projected it onto dungeons in general.
Excellent…
I am going to stand by what I first said in this topic.
I’ll chime in.
I am going to say that I think raids were a bad idea. It has nothing to do with how hard they are, or any of that, but simply that there really was no need for a 10 person dungeon in this game.
Also lets be honest with ourselves, when you have world meta events like Teq, TTT, Shatter, Jormag, which can take well over 20 people to do effectively, communication team work, people gathering for… a RAID… and then the boss and even the lakys are larger then life, these dragon heralds that rain death and fear upon those around them..minions that can rend you, all kinds of stuff going on, people really rally together for those events. And it’s… Beautiful!
In the face of the Meta Events in GW2, The Raids feel like a 10 man dungeon.
Now this is just me, but, a 10 man dungeon really just amounts to “Double the Pug” Experience.
Sorry, I get that some people love them and I am glad that they love them. but to me, the whole thing (while a complex dance to get it done) felt, small and insignificant for what should be this grandiose event.
I just could not really get into the idea that this was “Raid” when in GW2 there are meta events that fill maps with people, just to get them done.
In the end, I think they were a bad idea, simply because they don’t offer anything that could not have been provided as good, if not better, on a 5 Person scale.
Look at Thermanova Reactor Fractal, a very dynamic, twitch sensitive, and in may ways challenging encounter that required team effort.
The Fractal Underground Facility the content is engaging, requiring team work to open the doors, and get to the Boss fight, most people take part in it, and the boss fight, is, ok, I’ll admit, an annoying mechanic, it’s also a challenging one if you have to play it out fully and it requires thought and team work.
Even to use a “Story Dungeon” as an example, AC Story Mode, the Fight with the lovers. This was a wonderfully done encounter, where the players have to split them apart to be able to kill them. It requires team work and thought to make it happen.
They could have taken any of those mechanics and made them less forgiving, and that would be just as “Challenging” as the Raid is.
Not saying that people shouldn’t enjoy Raids, and I sincerely hope that people are having fun with them. Just between Fractals, World Bosses, Meta Events, and all the other Content, I personally just don’t feel like Raids added anything substantial to the game.
Anyway, with that said. Since I don’t see anything that really inspired me to change my mind since my first post on this subject, I will bow out and wish you all well.
Have a Great day.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
(edited by STIHL.2489)
I am going to stand by what I first said in this topic.
I’ll chime in.
I am going to say that I think raids were a bad idea. It has nothing to do with how hard they are, or any of that, but simply that there really was no need for a 10 person dungeon in this game.
Also lets be honest with ourselves, when you have world meta events like Teq, TTT, Shatter, Jormag, which can take well over 20 people to do effectively, communication team work, people gathering for… a RAID… and then the boss and even the lakys are larger then life, these dragon heralds that rain death and fear upon those around them..minions that can rend you, all kinds of stuff going on, people really rally together for those events. And it’s… Beautiful!
In the face of the Meta Events in GW2, The Raids feel like a 10 man dungeon.
Now this is just me, but, a 10 man dungeon really just amounts to “Double the Pug” Experience.
Sorry, I get that some people love them and I am glad that they love them. but to me, the whole thing (while a complex dance to get it done) felt, small and insignificant for what should be this grandiose event.
I just could not really get into the idea that this was “Raid” when in GW2 there are meta events that fill maps with people, just to get them done.
In the end, I think they were a bad idea, simply because they don’t offer anything that could not have been provided as good, if not better, on a 5 Person scale.
Look at Thermanova Reactor Fractal, a very dynamic, twitch sensitive, and in may ways challenging encounter that required team effort.
The Fractal Underground Facility the content is engaging, requiring team work to open the doors, and get to the Boss fight, most people take part in it, and the boss fight, is, ok, I’ll admit, an annoying mechanic, it’s also a challenging one if you have to play it out fully and it requires thought and team work.
Even to use a “Story Dungeon” as an example, AC Story Mode, the Fight with the lovers. This was a wonderfully done encounter, where the players have to split them apart to be able to kill them. It requires team work and thought to make it happen.
They could have taken any of those mechanics and made them less forgiving, and that would be just as “Challenging” as the Raid is.
Not saying that people shouldn’t enjoy Raids, and I sincerely hope that people are having fun with them. Just between Fractals, World Bosses, Meta Events, and all the other Content, I personally just don’t feel like Raids added anything substantial to the game.
Anyway, with that said. Since I don’t see anything that really inspired me to change my mind since my first post on this subject, I will bow out and wish you all well.
Have a Great day.
And why can’t we have both? You’re talking as if raids take away from these other parts of the game, and they do not.
There are many people that have been posting on this thread and the forums in general. Concerning Raids or difficulty or how its to hard to get mastery points etc.
These are the people that come into my Fine dining Japanese/ Asian Restaurant. Order Chicken tenders with fries, Complain to me about how I don’t have hamburgers, (yes this does happen), Don’t tip the server and go on to write some review on yelp about how the sushi was improperly prepared.
You have reached a point where your opinions mean nothing. Most of us don’t even read them any more. As they contain no information worth noting. And they will remain as such for a very long time.
I’m very much in the corner of raiders as far as things like raid nerfs go. However, a lot of the objections to the raiding community in any game come down to their being opinionated and rude. This post goes a long way to confirming that view. Characterizing people you disagree with as ignorant is not good advertising for your later offer to "help’ these people.
As an entrepreneur, you would know that while certain reviews matter and other reviews don’t, what really matters is sales. That you love your work and aren’t doing it primarily for money is great. However, you do need to be able to keep the doors open. Also, I’d guess you aren’t wholly owned by another company that does care primarily about money. ANet is in the middle (reportedly) of revamping HoT. They would not be doing so if they believed those complaints did not matter. Now, which complaints they’ve listened to is anyone’s guess.
Good luck with your restaurant.
But he’s not wrong, most of them are ignorant, that’s not an insult, not knowing something isn’t a bad thing. He’s not calling them stupid, only ignorant of what raids are, which again, is not an insult.
There are many people that have been posting on this thread and the forums in general. Concerning Raids or difficulty or how its to hard to get mastery points etc.
These are the people that come into my Fine dining Japanese/ Asian Restaurant. Order Chicken tenders with fries, Complain to me about how I don’t have hamburgers, (yes this does happen), Don’t tip the server and go on to write some review on yelp about how the sushi was improperly prepared.
You have reached a point where your opinions mean nothing. Most of us don’t even read them any more. As they contain no information worth noting. And they will remain as such for a very long time.
I’m very much in the corner of raiders as far as things like raid nerfs go. However, a lot of the objections to the raiding community in any game come down to their being opinionated and rude. This post goes a long way to confirming that view. Characterizing people you disagree with as ignorant is not good advertising for your later offer to "help’ these people.
As an entrepreneur, you would know that while certain reviews matter and other reviews don’t, what really matters is sales. That you love your work and aren’t doing it primarily for money is great. However, you do need to be able to keep the doors open. Also, I’d guess you aren’t wholly owned by another company that does care primarily about money. ANet is in the middle (reportedly) of revamping HoT. They would not be doing so if they believed those complaints did not matter. Now, which complaints they’ve listened to is anyone’s guess.
Good luck with your restaurant.
But he’s not wrong, most of them are ignorant, that’s not an insult, not knowing something isn’t a bad thing. He’s not calling them stupid, only ignorant of what raids are, which again, is not an insult.
The comparison was to people who want hamburgers in a sushi place. That’s evoking derision.
Maybe the upcoming content we will get and the HoT map revamp will be equally impressive. But I DO believe that aside from the timers and the need to be with lots of other players, all HoT maps are impressive. Design/graphic wise the maps are great, the enemies are well designed, and the events too. I’m going to give credit to the entire team for doing impressive stuff and not just the Raid team. Maybe they thought HoT maps would be “enough” for the masses.
The HoT maps were individually impressive, but they still haven’t come close to earning back the box price for the expansion, so it all depends on what they continue to release before they expect us to pay out again. I’m just saying, an open world map that involved the scale and complexity of the Forsaken Thicket would have been a strong nudge in the right direction.
If the adoption rate isn’t high enough after a couple of months then they might drop the entire concept completely and we won’t see another Raid ever.
True, which is why I don’t know why the raiders are so content to live in their ivory Jenga tower. It would give raids a much higher chance of long term success if they would embrace methods for the masses to become a part of the raiding cycle, rather than keeping it as niche as possible.
Still, I highly doubt they finished Raid 1 and then put the raid team on indefinite stand-by. I would have to assume that they rolled right into Raid 2 at the least, and that it would be Raid 3’s future that would be more in doubt. Perhaps if Raids truly did implode and they decided to “dungeon” the whole process, they would eventually repurpose the work put into Raid 2, turning it into something else or scaling it back to only a single wing or whatever, but they must be working on it.
it is a serious problem when the new WVW map (eotm) isn’t liked either, at least not by the core audience of WVW, non-WVW players love EotM but for all the wrong reasons.
And yet I always saw more people in EotM than on other WvW maps. Perhaps that’s an indication that “the wrong sort of people” are actually more populous, and therefore more worthy of attention than the "right sort of " WvW players. Maybe the core WvW gameplay isn’t actually of interest to most players. Players certainly never really engaged with WvW in the way ANet originally intended, which was that players would take and then defend content 24/7, when instead players chose to focus on quick-flipping content and then largely abandoning it to recapture, aside from a few key locations.
And why can’t we have both? You’re talking as if raids take away from these other parts of the game, and they do not.
And many in these threads are opposing easy mode raids for the same reasons. They would take nothing away from the existing raid, so why not?
But he’s not wrong, most of them are ignorant, that’s not an insult, not knowing something isn’t a bad thing. He’s not calling them stupid, only ignorant of what raids are, which again, is not an insult.
I don’t think most players who oppose raids are ignorant though, and I do think it’s an insult to characterize them as such. They are not ignorant about raids, they have just reached different conclusions as to how they feel about raids than the ones who love them. They are not people who won’t try green eggs and ham, they are people who have tried is, and genuinely do not like it, but are being completely dismissed, because “how could you not like green eggs and ham, I like it, so everyone must like if, if only they give it a chance.”
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
I already said I am fine with easy mode raids IF they take nothing away from current raids, (meaning no unique rewards, rewards are fine, just not magnetite shards or unique skins, or legendary armor).
But I’m pretty sure the time that would go into making them wouldn’t be worth it for anet to do, but I’m no expert on that.
Again, no, because . . . Look, you do understand the idea that the majority of the population deserves the majority of the resources, right? I mean, this should be common sense, but you really seem like there’s something about it you aren’t getting. Where is the disconnect?
A major disconnect was WvW and sPvP; in terms of the content-to-population ratio you’re describing, this was way, way off. Another was Fractals, their “supported” 5-man content was just neglected left to stagnant for long stretches of time. Meanwhile, in Living World land, they were spending a majority of their resources for content people rushed through in 1 hour every two weeks.
Most of the content being produced by the Living World team was very, very poor in terms of replay-ability and longevity. Many players don’t even bother with the achievements to those stories, and the few that did now have no reason to ever go back. Anyone who took a break from the game also has to purchase Season 2 from the gem store, which is another absurd joke to me. Don’t even get me started with how wasteful their temporary content nonsense was.
They had two years of Living World to find a system that actually improved the game in a meaningful way, and after all that time all we’ve gotten really was one zone where people farm (Silverwate) and adding Sinister gear.
And why can’t we have both? You’re talking as if raids take away from these other parts of the game, and they do not.
please point out the exact post or phrase used to indicate proof of your point of view that STIHL is saying anything about raids taking away from other aspects of the game.
throwing my 2 cents in the pot here. raids should feel epic. amirite? old time EQ player here and it was an everyday occurrence to wrangle 50-100 people (in groups of 6… no fancy raid UI, and no voice coms at first) for a planes raid. that’s epic… on a grand scale. much more recently i played DDO… and while the group size for a raid was much smaller (max group size 12)… for the most part the raids themselves still had an epic feel to them… trouping through a multi-part maze where 2 of the first 4 phases could kill you if you didn’t complete them quickly enough… one of which was a guaranteed fail if you didn’t complete in time… followed by 2 rounds of fighting a balor? that’s still epic even with reduced group size. exploring a gigantic dwarven-made extraplaner bank vault that had an ongoing story woven into it replete with love, betrayals, doublecrosses, and forced teamwork to solve all the puzzles… followed by a fight with an ancient red dragon who liked her adventurers roasty toasty and covered in ketchup. that was epic.
now in GW2… the first time i ran TTT… taxiing in people until the map was full to bursting… sorting people by what job to do.. each head with a different mechanic, and needing teamwork and coordination to kill them all at nearly the same time… THAT was epic… my first time facing a dragon (i think it was Jormag)…so many people on my screen they literally bought my computer to a halt… dealing with all the mechanics… being told to “stand here” and getting the crash landing achievement… when i wasn’t expecting it and had no idea what was going to happen (i have some friends who are practical jokers… they raised me at least XD)…. that… was epic.
my first time running the raid didn’t feel as epic. its like 2 trial runs… like… if you can’t kill these two, don’t even bother to pass GO do not collect 200 dollars, please step your way out of the raid now. then the “boss”… no epic trek to find the boss… no puzzles… no minions to mow through first….its just “oh look… there’s a platform… with the boss… lets do this…” followed by “dodge… green…. dodge…. bounce….green…. dodge… green… bounce… dodge… green…” etc rinse repeat for 5 phases. i’m sorry, but no. no offense to the designers, but that’s not epic
was it a good idea to make a raid? apparently, because for some reason everyone wanted them even tho we already had some pretty epic encounters in game, they just weren’t labeled “raids”…was this a good implementation? IMHO not really. does having a raid that isn’t epic and is really nothing more than a skill-gate take anything away from the mechanics and enjoyment of other encounters of various types and difficulties in game? nope.
Druids of Dhuum [DoD]|Rally Bait [RALY]
~o hai there :D~ LONG LIVE ET
~o hai there :D~ LONG LIVE ET