Guild Wars 2

Here is a why “tank/healer guardian” won’t work in pve.

1. there is no holy trinity.

That’s it.

There is room for support, just no tanking or healing, for the most part.

Look, a bingo thread.

@OP: Did you passed 100 hours played time yet? Type ingame the /age command and write the results here. Thanks!

Care to elaborate on these supposed glitches?

Last time I heard that, it was about design choices the devs made that people complained about. This prompted a change in the spider queen that simply punished those complaining while those speed running now kill her before her model even loads on the screen…in other words, the people claiming it was an exploit or glitch didn’t know what the hell they were talking about.

Why don’t they fix it?

Because it’s not a big enough priority for ArenaNet to put sufficient resources towards fixing. These problems have existed for two years, and the dungeon development team was disbanded shortly after launch.

For that and other reasons, don’t expect any new dungeons, either.

That sinking feeling in the pit of your stomach? It goes away eventually. Give it time.

You most likely will never get in group that finish AC path in 8 minutes each. They play in guild, not pugs.
You most likely won’t see Lupicus down in 4 second from a PUG either. You’ll see the pug down in 4 seconds instead.

Dalanor.5387:

Look, a bingo thread.

@OP: Did you passed 100 hours played time yet? Type ingame the /age command and write the results here. Thanks!

acually the last time I checked was 463 hours and that was a month ago

B I N G O and bingo was his nameooooo.

And this game’s dungeons are fine as they are. They are just stale.

Oh btw… watch this video and you will have a better idea of what I mean http://youtu.be/mfFe-UOWvA8

Haishao.6851:

You most likely will never get in group that finish AC path in 8 minutes each. They play in guild, not pugs.
You most likely won’t see Lupicus down in 4 second from a PUG either. You’ll see the pug down in 4 seconds instead.

Just to let u know… i was in that group and it was not a guild group i joined it from LFG

Oh god nemesis. You just lost all credibility you have on this forum. Meta is meta for a reason. Ask anyone with experience on this forum and they can tell you why. (I’m posting on mobile so too much effort (

Minigrump.4961:

Oh god nemesis. You just lost all credibility you have on this forum. Meta is meta for a reason. Ask anyone with experience on this forum and they can tell you why. (I’m posting on mobile so too much effort (

Don’t make Nemessis rise again. We lost too many brave soldiers to that demon!

To the rest; Go Zerk or make your own group/guild.. quite simple!

GrimmR.3541:

Minigrump.4961:

Oh god nemesis. You just lost all credibility you have on this forum. Meta is meta for a reason. Ask anyone with experience on this forum and they can tell you why. (I’m posting on mobile so too much effort (

Don’t make Nemessis rise again. We lost too many brave soldiers to that demon!

To the rest; Go Zerk or make your own group/guild.. quite simple!

Namasis wanted the game to be better, and Im already full berzerker on all 80s chracters, but when i want to be a healer or a support i get kicked unless its 49 fractels… u tell me because everyone is zerk and can survive, well they survive because of stacking corner to corner or skipping 90% of a dungeon where it takes more time to reach the final boss than to kill it… is this what will make the game right? I dont even understand how ArenaNet accepts people exploiting on thier offical fourms!!!

Nemesuck is a self-proclaimed necro expert. In reality he is just some 3rd rate player who has no idea what he is talking about. When actual players who are familiar with the Necro class caught wind of the terrible terrible advice that he was dishing out to new players playing necro, Nemesis was called out and proven to being a fraud.

He then got really kitten and made it a personal goal to talk trash on all things meta, stick to his terrible builds and bad math that would make elementary students wince in pain. Many players eventually recognized his uselessness and eventually he phased out of relevance.

Now you know, never quote his words again if you want to make a proper argument.

First, stacking/skipping/etc aren’t exploits. This has been established many, many times.

Second, yes, the lack of PvE build diversity, gear-wise, is annoying. But this has been a frequent player complaint for two years. I wouldn’t waste my energy trying to get ANet to do anything about it, they seem content with the way things are.

Strange because as of the FGS nerf we’ve been fighting a lot more things right on their spawn points rather than pulling them to old stack spots because it’s no longer all that beneficial. Still a nice tool to LoS mobs to get them to gather up for cleaving, but not something we’re doing constantly like with the old FGS meta.

Take subject alpha for instance, fighting him in p1 in the open is actually easier as often people will not even need to dodge the teeth attack as it’s going to be only going in one direction.

Spider queen, people are blowing up where she spawns. As with basically all the AC bosses.

The new meta is built upon an idea of might stack → Deep freeze → defiance strip/burn → Deep freeze → rinse/repeat as needed.

So… basically Support (buffing) → CC → CC management/DPS and again rinse/repeat.

You can attempt to dumb it down if you’d like, but that’s what it is.

The idea of a tank is simply a fallacy in this game as aggro control in this game is unpredictable, and a tank is not simply a big ball of meat, no, it’s a thing that takes the damage so the group doesn’t have to. You can play a glass tank in other games as long as you can survive and keep the agro… this game you can’t keep aggro and therefor no tank.

Healing is very limited and if you ever did try a healing build you’d see that pretty clearly, what’s your 1-2k heal going to do when people are getting hit for 8k in the same time frame? It’s an action game, built highly upon an idea of a self reliant nature, you do your own big heals and control much of your avoidance through dodges. The exceptions being aegis/projectile defense/blinds mainly which are absolutely insanely powerful if used correctly. No healers, but instead active damage avoidance through good teamwork and individual play.

I’m gonna just stop here because I just realized I’m being pretty dumb for wasting my time.

Don’t even get me started on the vampire. Just don’t.

I’ll happily kick your tank/healer nonsense from any 49 fractal group I am a part of. People like that are a reason why attempting to pug higher level fractals is an absolute nightmare some of the time, and most clearly apparent when any of the “harder” fractals is rolled. The best support is someone wearing damage gear, because they deal damage and can still do useful support via intelligent skill usage.

Skipping is not an exploit. If you’ve ever played certain dungeons, it is very obvious that some mobs are meant to be skipped or otherwise optional to kill. How is this an exploit?

Line of sighting mobs is not an exploit. It’s a necessary consequence of the programmed AI behavior. In any event, it’s almost always much faster to fight them out in the open where they spawn, and this is what good groups currently do. How is this in any way an exploit?

People survive in damage gear because they use active defense. They use control effects on mobs so they don’t do anything while being burned down. They use blocks, such as Aegis from a Guardian. They use dodge. They use reflects and projectile absorption skills. Stacking does basically does not do anything to aid in survival. All of the trash that is skipped is trivially easy to kill wearing full damage gear, but just takes additional time that is not worthwhile to spend in order to kill it.

What are these exploits you’re talking about? Did you report them to ANET? If you think they’re actual exploits (like stacking or skipping), you should not be discussing them on the forum or anywhere else, but instead reporting them to exploits@arena.net (but please don’t, because that’d be entirely moronic and wasting the time of staff at ANET to actually read such nonsense… And I think you know that, otherwise you wouldn’t be talking about them on the forum because it’s a violation of the terms you agreed to. Only email ANET if you know of an actual exploit).

I think Saint Dan summarized why runs are so fast now, while succinctly dismissing the exploit argument:

IvanTheGrey.2941:

Boredom is not an exploit.

Listen listen…. now if the dev made skipping imposiable and stacking impossiable, will u keep playing? Some player r complaing about fractels caz some of its mini deungeons are unspeedrunnable… the point is not skip or not…. its why the devs put that there if no one will use… the game was not meant to be like this… its true No trinety but its only unity… no condition no healers no support, nothing but power…. if arena net nerfed the berzerker builds vs other builds and made bosses stronger dealing more damge… that wpuld proply fix it… what im saying is… arena net m7at change the zerker builds so other builds could be used in pve, if tank, healer and condition builds is not meant for pve then why even put it there right???

That was hard to read, so I’ll just pull out some of the parts that I could parse >.<

GazaKnight.8206:

No trinety but its only unity… no condition no healers no support, nothing but power….

Reread the posts above. Going full zerker doesn’t mean “no support”. Support comes in the form of CC’s and damage mitigation (Aegis, blinds, etc).

They’ve had two years to even try making conditions useful and they haven’t moved an inch on it. This isn’t going to change unfortunately.

Healing? This video tells you everything you need to know. It’s really quite good.

if arena net nerfed the berzerker builds vs other builds and made bosses stronger dealing more damge… that wpuld proply fix it…

Why would you think that? Soloing Lupi in zerker gear is commonplace these days, and he’s very powerful and deals enough damage to down a player in a single blow. A boss doing more damage doesn’t change anything when you don’t get hit.

what im saying is… arena net m7at change the zerker builds so other builds could be used in pve, if tank, healer and condition builds is not meant for pve then why even put it there right???

No idea. WvW? All I know is that the playerbase has been quite vocal about DPS gear being the only worthwhile PvE set, so they go and introduce Nomad’s. Go figure.

dlonie.6547:

That was hard to read, so I’ll just pull out some of the parts that I could parse >.<

GazaKnight.8206:

No trinety but its only unity… no condition no healers no support, nothing but power….

Reread the posts above. Going full zerker doesn’t mean “no support”. Support comes in the form of CC’s and damage mitigation (Aegis, blinds, etc).

They’ve had two years to even try making conditions useful and they haven’t moved an inch on it. This isn’t going to change unfortunately.

Healing? This video tells you everything you need to know. It’s really quite good.

if arena net nerfed the berzerker builds vs other builds and made bosses stronger dealing more damge… that wpuld proply fix it…

Why would you think that? Soloing Lupi in zerker gear is commonplace these days, and he’s very powerful and deals enough damage to down a player in a single blow. A boss doing more damage doesn’t change anything when you don’t get hit.

what im saying is… arena net m7at change the zerker builds so other builds could be used in pve, if tank, healer and condition builds is not meant for pve then why even put it there right???

No idea. WvW? All I know is that the playerbase has been quite vocal about DPS gear being the only worthwhile PvE set, so they go and introduce Nomad’s. Go figure.

Exactly…. everyone is going to berzerker builds because there is no point in tank,heal or condition builds… caz u can skip and stack most of the dungeon, that is not an exploit, true, but its a gameplay flow and arenanet should fix it

GazaKnight.8206:

dlonie.6547:

That was hard to read, so I’ll just pull out some of the parts that I could parse >.<

GazaKnight.8206:

No trinety but its only unity… no condition no healers no support, nothing but power….

Reread the posts above. Going full zerker doesn’t mean “no support”. Support comes in the form of CC’s and damage mitigation (Aegis, blinds, etc).

They’ve had two years to even try making conditions useful and they haven’t moved an inch on it. This isn’t going to change unfortunately.

Healing? This video tells you everything you need to know. It’s really quite good.

if arena net nerfed the berzerker builds vs other builds and made bosses stronger dealing more damge… that wpuld proply fix it…

Why would you think that? Soloing Lupi in zerker gear is commonplace these days, and he’s very powerful and deals enough damage to down a player in a single blow. A boss doing more damage doesn’t change anything when you don’t get hit.

what im saying is… arena net m7at change the zerker builds so other builds could be used in pve, if tank, healer and condition builds is not meant for pve then why even put it there right???

No idea. WvW? All I know is that the playerbase has been quite vocal about DPS gear being the only worthwhile PvE set, so they go and introduce Nomad’s. Go figure.

Exactly…. everyone is going to berzerker builds because there is no point in tank,heal or condition builds… caz u can skip and stack most of the dungeon, that is not an exploit, true, but its a gameplay flow and arenanet should fix it

Couple of My favorite previous post dealing with the whole Un-holy Trinity. And this topic in general.

Talyn.3295:

It kinda makes me smile to think about it. MMOs are the only games that people will demand complete changes and make overs. When was the last time you purchased a FPS, Driving game or Football game, played it for six months or more, then went back to the maker of said game and was like. “You know, I would rather you had made Mass Effect more like this. Could you completely redo the entire game and give it to me for free cause I already bought it once.” Talk about a sense of entitlement.

The logic stands. You have a working bug free (most of the time game) It is what you paid for. If you wanted a WoW clone. (Or something else.) Its out there.

I do not miss the Restrictive Un-holy Trinity. Not one bit. Given the choice I would take this format. And When we look at games like ESO we see that its being copied. Perhaps not in its completely but its there.

So rather then spending time here complaining, perhaps you might go and play a game you like, that has the system you want. I know we will both be happier if you did.

Talyn.3295:

This post is people wanting something that was never promised in this game. By this logic next time I buy GTA game I should be able to flood its fourms demanding it be made a Final Fantasy clone.

I dont’ really like normal dungeon, most of them is way too easy. Especially the popular ones where people use it to farm money.

I think fractal is really well done though. The difficulty is just about right for pug. And you some times wipe occasional.

and on the topic of tank… well you are not suppose to get hit. AT ALL. That’s why tanking is mostly useless in this game. And the way people tank is by spamming blind, or block or dodge. And if you really want to tank, grab a hammer for guardian, it provide 33% protection permanently. Which is the equivalent of getting soldier gear for your whole group without sacrificing much dps.

and the topic about glitch or cheat people use in dungeon…. my opinion is it is always the developer’s job to stop that. Not the players job. PvE is about finding the best way to do things. I think all Anet need to do is make dungeon hard, and it’ll be interesting. Fractal is quite interesting to me.

GazaKnight.8206:

dlonie.6547:

That was hard to read, so I’ll just pull out some of the parts that I could parse >.<

GazaKnight.8206:

No trinety but its only unity… no condition no healers no support, nothing but power….

Reread the posts above. Going full zerker doesn’t mean “no support”. Support comes in the form of CC’s and damage mitigation (Aegis, blinds, etc).

They’ve had two years to even try making conditions useful and they haven’t moved an inch on it. This isn’t going to change unfortunately.

Healing? This video tells you everything you need to know. It’s really quite good.

if arena net nerfed the berzerker builds vs other builds and made bosses stronger dealing more damge… that wpuld proply fix it…

Why would you think that? Soloing Lupi in zerker gear is commonplace these days, and he’s very powerful and deals enough damage to down a player in a single blow. A boss doing more damage doesn’t change anything when you don’t get hit.

what im saying is… arena net m7at change the zerker builds so other builds could be used in pve, if tank, healer and condition builds is not meant for pve then why even put it there right???

No idea. WvW? All I know is that the playerbase has been quite vocal about DPS gear being the only worthwhile PvE set, so they go and introduce Nomad’s. Go figure.

Exactly…. everyone is going to berzerker builds because there is no point in tank,heal or condition builds… caz u can skip and stack most of the dungeon, that is not an exploit, true, but its a gameplay flow and arenanet should fix it

That is what you think mate. Some people mainly the “bad elitists“ simply do not want to need 5 min on fighting a boss just to be able to say :“W0w i tanked all tha attacks, hon0r meh im unkillable“
I don’t get what you try to achieve but alot of us like dungeons the way the are except that they are kitten boring..
So i advice you to look for a guild or friends with the same mindset as you and then you can tank the kitten out of every boss in this game.
If i think about it, not a bad idea i could do dungeons with my guild while being alttabbed to work for uni! /sarcasm off

Have a nice day

laokoko.7403:

I dont’ really like normal dungeon, most of them is way too easy. Especially the popular ones where people use it to farm money.

I think fractal is really well done though. The difficulty is just about right for pug. And you some times wipe occasional.

and on the topic of tank… well you are not suppose to get hit. AT ALL. That’s why tanking is mostly useless in this game. And the way people tank is by spamming blind, or block or dodge. And if you really want to tank, grab a hammer for guardian, it provide 33% protection permanently. Which is the equivalent of getting soldier gear for your whole group without sacrificing much dps.

and the topic about glitch or cheat people use in dungeon…. my opinion is it is always the developer’s job to stop that. Not the players job. PvE is about finding the best way to do things. I think all Anet need to do is make dungeon hard, and it’ll be interesting. Fractal is quite interesting to me.

True u dont need tank in boss fights, but in 90% mobs that people skip, u need a tank, healer or an AOE condtionar

GazaKnight.8206:

laokoko.7403:

I dont’ really like normal dungeon, most of them is way too easy. Especially the popular ones where people use it to farm money.

I think fractal is really well done though. The difficulty is just about right for pug. And you some times wipe occasional.

and on the topic of tank… well you are not suppose to get hit. AT ALL. That’s why tanking is mostly useless in this game. And the way people tank is by spamming blind, or block or dodge. And if you really want to tank, grab a hammer for guardian, it provide 33% protection permanently. Which is the equivalent of getting soldier gear for your whole group without sacrificing much dps.

and the topic about glitch or cheat people use in dungeon…. my opinion is it is always the developer’s job to stop that. Not the players job. PvE is about finding the best way to do things. I think all Anet need to do is make dungeon hard, and it’ll be interesting. Fractal is quite interesting to me.

True u dont need tank in boss fights, but in 90% mobs that people skip, u need a tank, healer or an AOE condtionar

I think the main problem is monster just hit so hard in this game. Take for example fractal 50. Monster kill you in 2 seconds if your wearing berserker and 3 second if you are not. I dont’ think those 2 to 3 seconds really matters.

And like I said, you can just give your party protection which is the same as full party wearing full toughness gear without sacrificing any dps.

As for healing…. well you can heal using berserker gear. Which is probably the whole point people are complaining. You can do everything in berserkerk gear so why not.

I get your complain about dungeons, I felt the same way too, it’s just felt a kitteneesy(meant to type cheese y here), I would say fractal is much better done. If you dont’ like normal dungeon, why not try fractal, the mechanics are much better there.

laokoko.7403:

GazaKnight.8206:

laokoko.7403:

I dont’ really like normal dungeon, most of them is way too easy. Especially the popular ones where people use it to farm money.

I think fractal is really well done though. The difficulty is just about right for pug. And you some times wipe occasional.

and on the topic of tank… well you are not suppose to get hit. AT ALL. That’s why tanking is mostly useless in this game. And the way people tank is by spamming blind, or block or dodge. And if you really want to tank, grab a hammer for guardian, it provide 33% protection permanently. Which is the equivalent of getting soldier gear for your whole group without sacrificing much dps.

and the topic about glitch or cheat people use in dungeon…. my opinion is it is always the developer’s job to stop that. Not the players job. PvE is about finding the best way to do things. I think all Anet need to do is make dungeon hard, and it’ll be interesting. Fractal is quite interesting to me.

True u dont need tank in boss fights, but in 90% mobs that people skip, u need a tank, healer or an AOE condtionar

I think the main problem is monster just hit so hard in this game. Take for example fractal 50. Monster kill you in 2 seconds if your wearing berserker and 3 second if you are not. I dont’ think those 2 to 3 seconds really matters.

And like I said, you can just give your party protection which is the same as full party wearing full toughness gear without sacrificing any dps.

As for healing…. well you can heal using berserker gear. Which is probably the whole point people are complaining. You can do everything in berserkerk gear so why not.

I get your complain about dungeons, I felt the same way too, it’s just felt a kitteneesy(meant to type cheese y here), I would say fractal is much better done. If you dont’ like normal dungeon, why not try fractal, the mechanics are much better there.

U know u r an amazing person caz i can reason with u…
but anyways as u said berzerker can do everytjing which is one of the cores of the problem, caz when u r zerk and can heal and tank this = unblanced
when the devs said “there is no holy trinity” they meant that u dont have to wait for a guardian to tank caz a warrior can tank and ele can heal, but the problem is that no one is acully tanking caz there is nothing out there to tank for, caz everyone is skipping most of the dungeons I would say a change in the scaling system in dungeons and make monesters in dungeons stronger ( not by increasing health, but increasing power) would help solve the problem

GrimmR.3541:

GazaKnight.8206:

dlonie.6547:

That was hard to read, so I’ll just pull out some of the parts that I could parse >.<

GazaKnight.8206:

No trinety but its only unity… no condition no healers no support, nothing but power….

Reread the posts above. Going full zerker doesn’t mean “no support”. Support comes in the form of CC’s and damage mitigation (Aegis, blinds, etc).

They’ve had two years to even try making conditions useful and they haven’t moved an inch on it. This isn’t going to change unfortunately.

Healing? This video tells you everything you need to know. It’s really quite good.

if arena net nerfed the berzerker builds vs other builds and made bosses stronger dealing more damge… that wpuld proply fix it…

Why would you think that? Soloing Lupi in zerker gear is commonplace these days, and he’s very powerful and deals enough damage to down a player in a single blow. A boss doing more damage doesn’t change anything when you don’t get hit.

what im saying is… arena net m7at change the zerker builds so other builds could be used in pve, if tank, healer and condition builds is not meant for pve then why even put it there right???

No idea. WvW? All I know is that the playerbase has been quite vocal about DPS gear being the only worthwhile PvE set, so they go and introduce Nomad’s. Go figure.

Exactly…. everyone is going to berzerker builds because there is no point in tank,heal or condition builds… caz u can skip and stack most of the dungeon, that is not an exploit, true, but its a gameplay flow and arenanet should fix it

That is what you think mate. Some people mainly the “bad elitists“ simply do not want to need 5 min on fighting a boss just to be able to say :“W0w i tanked all tha attacks, hon0r meh im unkillable“
I don’t get what you try to achieve but alot of us like dungeons the way the are except that they are kitten boring..
So i advice you to look for a guild or friends with the same mindset as you and then you can tank the kitten out of every boss in this game.
If i think about it, not a bad idea i could do dungeons with my guild while being alttabbed to work for uni! /sarcasm off

Have a nice day

Friend let me give u an example of the problem, now lets say we have 2 parties of warriors one is level 35s and the other is level 80s, now tell me will the level 35 be able to speed run AC p3 ? The answer is no, caz they dont have enough traits and skills to do that, caz they r level 35, now the 80s party will speed run and maybe kill everything in the dungeon before that party maybe pass kholer, why? Caz its not balanced, u say very easy dungeons, true caz when u r scaled down yr armor weapons and builds are not scaled down, and that will caz everyone to wear berzerker and use dps builds caz no need for a tank or a healer, just imagine when u go in a dungeon and everything is scaled down to that dungeon level (traits, armor and weapons) will the dungeon be as easy as u think???

GazaKnight.8206:

I would say a change in the scaling system in dungeons and make monesters in dungeons stronger ( not by increasing health, but increasing power) would help solve the problem

That is what fractal 50 is. Try wearing cleric, soldier or normad gear. Tell me if you can actually tank anything. It doesn’t matter what you wear, you are dead in a few hits.

What I’m trying to tell you is there is very little difference between full toughness gear and no toughness at all. You only take about 30% less damage, and you do much less damage.

The actually reality is if a group of cleric/soldier/normad gear players do fractal 50, they’ll probably wipe after wipe on ascalon or cliff side because they can’t kill fast enough. While a group of berserker can just go through the content easily, because even if 1 person die, they can rally because their party kill fast enough.

Not to mention you can’t hold agro anyway. Even if you take less damage dont’ mean other people is taking less damage.

It’s just the way the game is designed. You can theory craft all you want. But the game isn’t designed that way. You need to redesign the whole combat system to make tanking work.

dlonie.6547:

That was hard to read, so I’ll just pull out some of the parts that I could parse >.<

GazaKnight.8206:

No trinety but its only unity… no condition no healers no support, nothing but power….

Reread the posts above. Going full zerker doesn’t mean “no support”. Support comes in the form of CC’s and damage mitigation (Aegis, blinds, etc).

They’ve had two years to even try making conditions useful and they haven’t moved an inch on it. This isn’t going to change unfortunately.

Healing? This video tells you everything you need to know. It’s really quite good.

if arena net nerfed the berzerker builds vs other builds and made bosses stronger dealing more damge… that wpuld proply fix it…

Why would you think that? Soloing Lupi in zerker gear is commonplace these days, and he’s very powerful and deals enough damage to down a player in a single blow. A boss doing more damage doesn’t change anything when you don’t get hit.

what im saying is… arena net m7at change the zerker builds so other builds could be used in pve, if tank, healer and condition builds is not meant for pve then why even put it there right???

No idea. WvW? All I know is that the playerbase has been quite vocal about DPS gear being the only worthwhile PvE set, so they go and introduce Nomad’s. Go figure.

WvW is not PvE!!!

laokoko.7403:

GazaKnight.8206:

I would say a change in the scaling system in dungeons and make monesters in dungeons stronger ( not by increasing health, but increasing power) would help solve the problem

That is what fractal 50 is. Try wearing cleric, soldier or normad gear. Tell me if you can actually tank anything. It doesn’t matter what you wear, you are dead in a few hits.

What I’m trying to tell you is there is very little difference between full toughness gear and no toughness at all. You only take about 30% less damage, and you do much less damage.

It is much safer if the whole group just wear berserker and kill as fast as possible.

Not to mention you can’t hold agro anyway. Even if you take less damage dont’ mean other people is taking less damage.

Thats the problem… no balance between builds caz dungeons are not balanced

As laokoko just explained, the game’s combat has many problems. Toughness is made largely useless at high level PVE, since all it does is make you deal less damage. And aggro control has been a mess since the game launched. The aggro priorities of monsters seem all over the place, and it makes it very difficult for players to maintain aggro. None of this has anything to do with the dungeons themselves though.

The dungeons generally are bad (and this is just my opinion, I know some players enjoy these corridors with monsters), for these reasons:

• Oversimplistic, flat and boring dungeon design. They are mostly just corridors, lacking real dungeon features. What we need is more levers, doors, bridges, crossroads, alternating paths, junctions, traps, secrets, pressure plates, stairs, elevators, height differences… anything really. Anything but a log row of corridors and rooms filled with foes.

• Badly designed combat encounters, and bad boss design. This exposes painfully just how dull the combat in the game is. You need depth in the combat system to have interesting combat, but you also need the enemies themselves to pose an interesting challenge, rather than just being trash for players to kill.

• Bad ai. This links to the point above. Players currently make use of the fact that enemy ai is pretty poor, which dulls the combat. If the ai is dumb, then the players will abuse this fact. This is not an exploit, it is emergent game play.

• Stacking, which is the result of the way how overpowered boon stacking is. This is a problem with the combat design, not the dungeon. But dungeons suffer for it, because anywhere else in PVE it’s not really needed.

People tend to bring up that they miss the trinity, because the dungeons currently lack combat encounters that demand the players to assume any real strategy. I don’t think we should go back to that. But I do feel the dungeons need to demand more roles from the players, rather than a full party of berserkers.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

As laokoko just explained, the game’s combat has many problems. Toughness is made largely useless at high level PVE, since all it does is make you deal less damage. And aggro control has been a mess since the game launched. The aggro priorities of monsters seem all over the place, and it makes it very difficult for players to maintain aggro. None of this has anything to do with the dungeons themselves though.

The dungeons generally are bad (and this is just my opinion, I know some players enjoy these corridors with monsters), for these reasons:

• Oversimplistic, flat and boring dungeon design. They are mostly just corridors, lacking real dungeon features. What we need is more levers, doors, bridges, crossroads, alternating paths, junctions, traps, secrets, pressure plates, stairs, elevators, height differences… anything really. Anything but a log row of corridors and rooms filled with foes.

• Badly designed combat encounters, and bad boss design. This exposes painfully just how dull the combat in the game is. You need depth in the combat system to have interesting combat, but you also need the enemies themselves to pose an interesting challenge, rather than just being trash for players to kill.

• Bad ai. This links to the point above. Players currently make use of the fact that enemy ai is pretty poor, which dulls the combat. If the ai is dumb, then the players will abuse this fact. This is not an exploit, it is emergent game play.

• Stacking, which is the result of the way how overpowered boon stacking is. This is a problem with the combat design, not the dungeon. But dungeons suffer for it, because anywhere else in PVE it’s not really needed.

People tend to bring up that they miss the trinity, because the dungeons currently lack combat encounters that demand the players to assume any real strategy. I don’t think we should go back to that. But I do feel the dungeons need to demand more roles from the players, rather than a full party of berserkers.

U know what, u r amazing caz u just said what make dungeons unbalanced with the build system, the AI should be smarter since the combat system allow the player to dodge and block attacks, but listen i want yr openion on some of these sugestions :
1. Change the AI so it dont follow the players to the stack, forcing the player to fight it in its own ground
2. Stop the player from being able to knock back or knock dow the boss so they will be forced to play by its rules
3. a. Change the scale system in dungeons (such as Ascolonian catacombs) so that everything will be scaled down not just the level
B. Make a level requirments to the 4 ult skils and the healing skills so when the higher level player wont be able to use some certain skills inside these dungeons
C. Make the traits that require higher level than the dungeon get locked so they wont be used in these dungeons (like AC and CM)
D. The wrapons that are higher level than the dungeon will be scaled down to that dungeon level, example : level 80 sowrd exotic will be scaled down to a level 35 rare
4. Change the reward system so its based on how much the player cleaned (killed mobs) in dungeon so for example only killing the last and the main bosses will result in a 50% lower prize (the main boss 25%, other bosses depends the deffculty the other 25%)
For example to get the 1 gold and 25 silvers and the 60 tokens the players has to kill everything in that dungeon

So glad I saved this picture.

GazaKnight.8206:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

As laokoko just explained, the game’s combat has many problems. Toughness is made largely useless at high level PVE, since all it does is make you deal less damage. And aggro control has been a mess since the game launched. The aggro priorities of monsters seem all over the place, and it makes it very difficult for players to maintain aggro. None of this has anything to do with the dungeons themselves though.

The dungeons generally are bad (and this is just my opinion, I know some players enjoy these corridors with monsters), for these reasons:

• Oversimplistic, flat and boring dungeon design. They are mostly just corridors, lacking real dungeon features. What we need is more levers, doors, bridges, crossroads, alternating paths, junctions, traps, secrets, pressure plates, stairs, elevators, height differences… anything really. Anything but a log row of corridors and rooms filled with foes.

• Badly designed combat encounters, and bad boss design. This exposes painfully just how dull the combat in the game is. You need depth in the combat system to have interesting combat, but you also need the enemies themselves to pose an interesting challenge, rather than just being trash for players to kill.

• Bad ai. This links to the point above. Players currently make use of the fact that enemy ai is pretty poor, which dulls the combat. If the ai is dumb, then the players will abuse this fact. This is not an exploit, it is emergent game play.

• Stacking, which is the result of the way how overpowered boon stacking is. This is a problem with the combat design, not the dungeon. But dungeons suffer for it, because anywhere else in PVE it’s not really needed.

People tend to bring up that they miss the trinity, because the dungeons currently lack combat encounters that demand the players to assume any real strategy. I don’t think we should go back to that. But I do feel the dungeons need to demand more roles from the players, rather than a full party of berserkers.

U know what, u r amazing caz u just said what make dungeons unbalanced with the build system, the AI should be smarter since the combat system allow the player to dodge and block attacks, but listen i want yr openion on some of these sugestions :
1. Change the AI so it dont follow the players to the stack, forcing the player to fight it in its own ground
2. Stop the player from being able to knock back or knock dow the boss so they will be forced to play by its rules
3. a. Change the scale system in dungeons (such as Ascolonian catacombs) so that everything will be scaled down not just the level
B. Make a level requirments to the 4 ult skils and the healing skills so when the higher level player wont be able to use some certain skills inside these dungeons
C. Make the traits that require higher level than the dungeon get locked so they wont be used in these dungeons (like AC and CM)
D. The wrapons that are higher level than the dungeon will be scaled down to that dungeon level, example : level 80 sowrd exotic will be scaled down to a level 35 rare
4. Change the reward system so its based on how much the player cleaned (killed mobs) in dungeon so for example only killing the last and the main bosses will result in a 50% lower prize (the main boss 25%, other bosses depends the deffculty the other 25%)
For example to get the 1 gold and 25 silvers and the 60 tokens the players has to kill everything in that dungeon

No thanks.
Look, if you want to play a certain go do it. No one is stopping you from playing with like minded players.

However if you want to put a bullet in the head of dungeons keep asking for them to take longer and longer and keep asking for anet to nerf loot till we have to spend 4 hours running a path. Then the only problem you will have to worry about is finding 4 other players who are willing to still do the content. Because at that point most of us will be gone. We have already bleed enough players as it is, we don’t need to lose more because you want the game turned into something that it wasn’t ever promised it would be.

@GazaKnight

First of all you have to understand that people have been playing this game for a long time. I’m talking thousands of hours. I’ve probably spent upwards of a hundred hours in AC. That’s a long time.

That’s why people can clear the dungeon in 8 minutes per run. Because they’ve done it so many times the dungeon is second nature to them now.

That and the fact that the game is designed to not be incredibly difficult to complete.

At launch dungeons were in a completely different state – people didn’t know what to do or where to go and speed clearing didn’t exist.
But content doesn’t change and players do. They learn, improve, adapt. They learn how to play their class, how to dodge, what each boss does etc.

At the end of all that – today – you’ll find that dungeons are very easy for those that improved as players and stepped up their game.

Dungeons are still difficult if you’re new and don’t have all your gear in order, aren’t experienced with your class and the encounters.

My question is this – if dungeons were made so hard that the well geared, well experienced veterans would be having a hard time completing what do you think will happen with new players coming in?
How will they enjoy dungeons?

Also about that healing – nobody will want your tank/healer guardian because in Guild Wars 2 everyone has a healing skill and if they know what they are doing they probably won’t be needing your “extra healing” which is just a waste since they’re already keeping themselves alive.

2014, ppl still wanting gw2 to be a trinity game :/
Bingo.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

As laokoko just explained, the game’s combat has many problems. Toughness is made largely useless at high level PVE, since all it does is make you deal less damage. And aggro control has been a mess since the game launched. The aggro priorities of monsters seem all over the place, and it makes it very difficult for players to maintain aggro. None of this has anything to do with the dungeons themselves though.

First and foremost I disagree with you on the aggro. I find it to be a much better system and far more realistic than what you would traditionally consider MMO aggro mechanics to be.

It lends itself to the organic feel of GW2 combat because you always have to be on your toes and ready to dodge, block, evade or just get out of the way.

Traditional aggro with one guy tanking and the rest doing their think knowing they won’t be a target for the boss is not only not realistic ( what enemy would just run after one guy and ignore all others) but also trivializes combat in a big way.

Example:

FOTM – Uncategorized fractal. A player with a lot of toughness can aggro the asura boss and run him around a pillar while the rest of the party finish off the golems with almost no threats at all. Because the boss is busy running after said tank.

And let’s not even get to how exploitable certain areas of the game could be if you could keep aggro and mobs wouldn’t switch it.

Oversimplistic, flat and boring dungeon design. They are mostly just corridors, lacking real dungeon features. What we need is more levers, doors, bridges, crossroads, alternating paths, junctions, traps, secrets, pressure plates, stairs, elevators, height differences… anything really. Anything but a log row of corridors and rooms filled with foes.

Agreed with you.

Badly designed combat encounters, and bad boss design. This exposes painfully just how dull the combat in the game is. You need depth in the combat system to have interesting combat, but you also need the enemies themselves to pose an interesting challenge, rather than just being trash for players to kill.

Agreed partially but GW2 was designed so most players can do the content and succeed. What you’re describing is a much less forgiving system and a much harder one to understand and implement.

GW2 is designed in a simple way for players to complete and feel good about themselves and spend subsequent cash in the gem store.

Bad ai. This links to the point above. Players currently make use of the fact that enemy ai is pretty poor, which dulls the combat. If the ai is dumb, then the players will abuse this fact. This is not an exploit, it is emergent game play.

See above.
Not sure if the AI could be made better but it could at least emulate some sPVP players.
And then the content where such AI would be implemented would be filled with death and the tears of those who can’t even understand their own class let alone mechanics and timing dodges and whatnot.

Stacking, which is the result of the way how overpowered boon stacking is. This is a problem with the combat design, not the dungeon. But dungeons suffer for it, because anywhere else in PVE it’s not really needed.

I feel you’re pointing at boon stacking but you’re leaving out a key feature.
Stacking is done not necessarily because of boons ( which is an added bonus) – to my understanding people stack so they can clump the mobs together and burn them down easier with AOE and cleaving.
Even if boon sharing was gone people would still stack because killing 2-3-4 mobs in the time it takes to kill one is important for your clear time.

People tend to bring up that they miss the trinity, because the dungeons currently lack combat encounters that demand the players to assume any real strategy. I don’t think we should go back to that. But I do feel the dungeons need to demand more roles from the players, rather than a full party of berserkers.

Gear does not define your role. Your skills and traits do. A party full of zerkers means different roles. But the people in the gear are all good enough to stay alive. It means experience and ability.

Strategy in a game like GW2 isn’t something that you’re likely to come across. 2+ years the game has been out and it’s been made abundantly clear that the common denominator that content was designed for is an incredibly bad player.

Oki…. listen up, first of all the problem here is not the noobs, if u look at the points u will see that im targetting the higher level players compared to a dungeon
and my points wont effect the noobs, im not saying make bosses harder im saying make the higher level players weaker, the noobs wont have a problem as they will have almost the same sates and armor as the higher level one right.
I do relise that everyone played the AC dungeon alot just as i did… and they are naturly more femelier with it, but as u said people before stacking and thats how dungeons are supposed to played, im not saying make the noob suffer, im saying make the veterns have a challenge when playing these dungeons.
like what is the problem in not makeing the bosd follow players to stack, that wont effect noobs it will effect the veterns or make the players clear the whole dungeon, that what players used to do before knowing the skipping and staking mechanics, and I never said and will never say that skipping and stacking is exploit and if i did, im wrong, skipping and stacking are not exploits but they are gameplay flows, bad game designs.
And about the healing build not needed in dungeons in general, and every player is able to heal himself
that is a good thimg but at the same time bad thing, caz it means that builds inside dungeons are unbalanced right?
And thanx for being reasonable in replaying @Harper.4173
p.s im useing my phone to replay so im sorry if i wrote something wrong, keep in mind english is not my language, thank you

RSLongK.8961:

2014, ppl still wanting gw2 to be a trinity game :/
Bingo.

Its not trinity, its alot of builds are being banned from pve due to the lack of need because there is no balance in dungeons

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Carried-Players/first#post4476334

“tank-healer” is precisely what guardians are not. They can be treated as such, but so can every other class (oddly, warriors are better at both).

guardian is closer to a prot/smite hybrid from gw1. However they are actually strong DPS contenders, and can reduce damage taken from a single attack to 0 (repeatedly at that).

Take your pre-conceived ideas of what an mmo should be, and stick it in a sandwich.

Also. Dungeons are balanced. Zerker = hardest to play gear. Zerker = highest dps.
Traits/utilities (and for several classses weapon set) vary from foe to foe.

Realistically, the majority of " QQ zerker meta sux" comes from players who aren’t good enough to wear it without dying in 2s.

First to make sure we’re talking about the same thing : for some players (and me) stacking simply means everyone is standing on melee range to share boons and limit enemy movement. For a lot of other players, stacking cannot be done without LOS and a wall/corner (which only used to be useful with FGS).

AC isn’t the best dungeon for your case. Everything dies so quickly, why bother wasting time to find a wall or even skipping in some cases, like the last group before the final boss in P1 and P3…it’s way faster to just deal with them, than run all the way to the other side of the room.

And it’s time to stop blaming AI and start blaming the skills they are given. Smart AI isn’t “running around and ranging to make the dungeon more tedious because players will have to chase after me”. But since a lot of them barely have any interesting skills, it doesn’t matter how smart or dumb the AI is.

Regarding imbalance between full DPS and whatever else, what was there to expect in a game advertised as “fast combat, no healer, no tank” ? The idea in this game is “kill them before they kill you”, not “make the fight everlasting”.
In PvE, everything aside from full DPS should be considered as crutches : use them until you are comfortable enough to full DPS but don’t settle with being a tank or a healer.

when ArenaNet no Trinity, it meant that u can Fulfill any role, but what is going on is that there is no trinity but only unity, if a player want to play a condition damge will be properly kicked out of the party and thats the problem, a one build baning other builds out of PvE, which is happening because there is no balance between builds and content are not challanging at all that it dose not need you to play a specfic role to finish something Imnot saying Holy Trinity, Im saying balance between builds, Im not saying guards must tank caz Necros can Tank too, but wha Im saying is there is no balance bettwen builds and dungeons difficulty

and btw, I always played as full DPS in all classes but I once tried the Cleric Guardian build and the Supoort thief build and I saw a missed oportunities

GazaKnight.8206:

laokoko.7403:

I dont’ really like normal dungeon, most of them is way too easy. Especially the popular ones where people use it to farm money.

I think fractal is really well done though. The difficulty is just about right for pug. And you some times wipe occasional.

and on the topic of tank… well you are not suppose to get hit. AT ALL. That’s why tanking is mostly useless in this game. And the way people tank is by spamming blind, or block or dodge. And if you really want to tank, grab a hammer for guardian, it provide 33% protection permanently. Which is the equivalent of getting soldier gear for your whole group without sacrificing much dps.

and the topic about glitch or cheat people use in dungeon…. my opinion is it is always the developer’s job to stop that. Not the players job. PvE is about finding the best way to do things. I think all Anet need to do is make dungeon hard, and it’ll be interesting. Fractal is quite interesting to me.

True u dont need tank in boss fights, but in 90% mobs that people skip, u need a tank, healer or an AOE condtionar

Most mobs in the game can be easily cleared by a zerk GS warrior. 3-3-tab-2.

GazaKnight.8206:

and btw, I always played as full DPS in all classes but I once tried the Cleric Guardian build and the Supoort thief build and I saw a missed oportunities

You can just use a zerker thief and provide the same support, unless you are referring to a venom share build rather than providing blinds. You can also easily clear most trash mobs simply by using AoE blinds, which a thief in any gear can provide too.

With players that are not all that comfortable/experienced to survive full glass cannon (berserker/assassin gear and traits geared toward offense), you can actually clear most content fairly easily and moderately quickly, provided the whole team chooses strategies adjusted to their builds. I’ve seen runs with “support” builds (as in clerics/soldiers/whatever defensive equipment) and adequate strategies go quite a bit quicker than the same paths with inexperienced players trying to use full damage gear and strategies.

The different builds are indeed balanced, provided your team composition and strategies are adjusted to fit the builds involved. You won’t be able to just rush Subject Alpha for example with the same “burn him down quickly”-strategy used by experienced full-dps-parties and beat him down with a support-focused party just like that. It needs different strategies, but if you find the right strategy, it works just as well (and almost as fast) as the full-dps approach.

I do understand you guys, but what Im saying is that these days in this game there is not holy Trinity but there is only DPS trinity (from my own experience) most all dungeons require player to have a DPS build or Else, they get kicked, and that is because the dungeons dont require a tank, healer or support players in the party because most of the time speed runs will skip most parts of a dungeon or keep stacking in a corner, and these 2 tactics dont require to have a tank healer or Condtion AOE, which is why its a bad gameplay design, what Im trying to say is ArenaNet still have a the chance to fix this by making the dungeons as hard as its for level 35 or 65 players (regardless of experienced or not), so we wont see the “80s, ZERKERS, EXPERIENCED” trinity anymore, specially in the lower level dungeons

1) Create your own group “LFG all welcome”
2) get healing staff guardian, bearbows, condimancers, gs mesmers.
3) Keep pugging like this for 2years.
4) Tell us how awesome is the experience of taking 3h to finish arah.