Guild Wars 2

The title says it all. From experience the number of players using “Cheese” builds in WvW and PvP is well over 85%. It’s poisoning PvP and WvW. It’s to the point that most players I know that used to love doing pvp and wvw have just quit altogether because of it. I am still hanging on, but am finding it really hard to even log on anymore to do what I love. When it comes to the point that players have to all run cheese builds in order to actually be beneficial in wvw or pvp cuz all the enemy is running cheese builds then there will be a time when every class has only one or two viable builds and all the personal creativity is taken out of builds. Everyone will be running cookie cutter builds and nobody will have fun except those that think running a cheese build is a good thing.
And fyi a meta build is not necessarily a cheese build altho cheese builds do tend to be meta.

and what do you propose to solve this? People will always run meta builds, some like me like to be more creative, but not everybody, doesnt matter what devs of any game do, people will always find some build to make a meta and people will flock to it. Just how it is.

Why not find a counter to the builds? There has to be one.

By cheese builds, do you mean gimmicky, one trick pony kind of things? Those do tend to get annoying and common place, but Anet always gets around to breaking them if they become OP and unbalance things. At least they did in GW1. It’s a trend in MMO’s, people come up with a shiny spec/talent tree and soon everyone starts to migrate to it, then it becomes stale when people figure out how to break it then it repeats itself. It’ll pass.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Why not find a counter to the builds? There has to be one.

They’d have to wait for someone to publicly post one which may not ever happen.

X T D.6458:

and what do you propose to solve this? People will always run meta builds, some like me like to be more creative, but not everybody, doesnt matter what devs of any game do, people will always find some build to make a meta and people will flock to it. Just how it is.

As I stated meta builds are not necessarily cheese builds but cheese builds tend to be meta.
And I really don’t expect Anet to do anything about it. As you said there will always be players that can find a build that is broken or cheese. But as we go on in the years anet will eventually find a balance in the game and these cheese builds wont exist.
What I want is for players to learn to make their own builds instead of going after these cheese builds. But then again there will always be those that are lazy and want the easiest way to play the game.

Ayrilana.1396:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Why not find a counter to the builds? There has to be one.

They’d have to wait for someone to publicly post one which may not ever happen.

Probably not, because the people with counters are the ones who are probably succeeding despite “more cheese than Wisconsin” being used.

Ayrilana.1396:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Why not find a counter to the builds? There has to be one.

They’d have to wait for someone to publicly post one which may not ever happen.

There are many websites that post all types of builds, also simply asking friends, guildies etc usually works for most people. Its not hard for anet to know what people are running. They nerf one, to bring up another, it gets abused, nerfed etc etc

X T D.6458:

Ayrilana.1396:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Why not find a counter to the builds? There has to be one.

They’d have to wait for someone to publicly post one which may not ever happen.

There are many websites that post all types of builds, also simply asking friends, guildies etc usually works for most people. Its not hard for anet to know what people are running. They nerf one, to bring up another, it gets abused, nerfed etc etc

I call it “The Riot Games Approach” . . .

Nokturnal Lunacy.3186:

X T D.6458:

and what do you propose to solve this? People will always run meta builds, some like me like to be more creative, but not everybody, doesnt matter what devs of any game do, people will always find some build to make a meta and people will flock to it. Just how it is.

As I stated meta builds are not necessarily cheese builds but cheese builds tend to be meta.
And I really don’t expect Anet to do anything about it. As you said there will always be players that can find a build that is broken or cheese. But as we go on in the years anet will eventually find a balance in the game and these cheese builds wont exist.
What I want is for players to learn to make their own builds instead of going after these cheese builds. But then again there will always be those that are lazy and want the easiest way to play the game.

yea but thats the thing there can never be any true balance, otherwise every profession would essentially be the same. Having played gw1 which had like thousands of skills, secondary professions, unlimited build diversity etc, some people also used meta builds for every part of the game. Its just the way some players are. One thing you can do is if you see particular builds commonly used, make your own build to counter it.

Im no fan of the build system here, especially after playing gw1, because I like making my own builds, and I do find much more limiting here compared to gw1 in that regards. But I also recognize the difficulty in balancing and counterplay again after gw1. So believe me I really do get your frustration, its one of the reasons I dont do PvP because basically everyone uses the same build and does the same thing in every match, boring and just not my style. Gw1 PvP yea I found it much more flexible and fun, but you know what can you do its a different game, and no matter what game, some people will always choose convenience over thought.

Perfect balance only exists in games where both sides generally possess the same rules, the same pieces, and the same options, and relies entirely on strategy to push through instead of chance. Chess is perfectly balanced. Risk is not.

Competitive games which thrive are not ones with perfect balance, so much as carefully tuned imperfect balance. Or deliberately having an imbalance imposed by the players/teams (see: professional sports).

X T D.6458:

Im no fan of the build system here, especially after playing gw1, because I like making my own builds, and I do find much more limiting here compared to gw1 in that regards. But I also recognize the difficulty in balancing and counterplay again after gw1

I rarely dipped into GW1’s PvP but even there there was . . . pretty often a limited number of builds you’d see with only minor variations and few surprises.

exactly, if there were perfect balance there would be no counterplay, and no strengths and weakness to seperate classes, they would just have different names to seperate them

X T D.6458:

Nokturnal Lunacy.3186:

X T D.6458:

and what do you propose to solve this? People will always run meta builds, some like me like to be more creative, but not everybody, doesnt matter what devs of any game do, people will always find some build to make a meta and people will flock to it. Just how it is.

As I stated meta builds are not necessarily cheese builds but cheese builds tend to be meta.
And I really don’t expect Anet to do anything about it. As you said there will always be players that can find a build that is broken or cheese. But as we go on in the years anet will eventually find a balance in the game and these cheese builds wont exist.
What I want is for players to learn to make their own builds instead of going after these cheese builds. But then again there will always be those that are lazy and want the easiest way to play the game.

yea but thats the thing there can never be any true balance, otherwise every profession would essentially be the same. Having played gw1 which had like thousands of skills, secondary professions, unlimited build diversity etc, some people also used meta builds for every part of the game. Its just the way some players are. One thing you can do is if you see particular builds commonly used, make your own build to counter it.

I did just that lol. I am running a build that pretty much kills the cheese which will eventually become cheese if it gets out so im trying to keep it under wraps. The only counters to it i’ve had difficulty with tho are a certain ele build (i know nothing of eles so i cant say what build it is. but it basically spams chill) and pu shatter mesmo with runes of hoelbrak i think or whatever the rune is called. i cant remember. but if the burst can be avoided from a full clone shatter (all clones at once) then the mesmo will have no chance. its hard to avoid tho in pvp when youre already fighting the rest of the team.

well one thing you can do is check out the pvp forum to learn more about those builds, to help you develop counters. I too share your hatred for fighting eles, and those trolly mesmers lol

X T D.6458:

well one thing you can do is check out the pvp forum to learn more about those builds, to help you develop counters. I too share your hatred for fighting eles, and those trolly mesmers lol

Actually I’ve only encountered one ele where i lost a 1v1 but she went down too. And ive beat every mesmo regardless of build in 1v1’s. It’s when youre in the middle of a fight with the rest of their team that they tend to be the biggest issue. I tend to find myself fighting constant 1vx in pvp cuz they other team quickly feels I need to be targeted. And I do really well until their clutch ele or mesmo comes running in. Just tonight I had a hambow, a trap ranger and a medi guard all down at mid and in comes a shatter mesmo and I had no time to react cuz i didnt even see her coming. she was just there. i think she did the portal crap there.

Happens bro, anytime you do something competitive, frustration will eventually occur. I do wvw a lot, think I like being steamrolled by 50 people lol. But you know it is what it is. I just try to have fun with it as best I can.

Sooo many puns I want to make in this thread…

Um. But yeah. What do you want players to do? Play less effective builds? Play builds that are harder to play effectively? Even if players did all make their own builds, chances are the better theory-crafters would move towards a similar meta anyway, because that’s what’s effective in the current game.

Let’s all start playing bunker builds and go roaming with them in WvW just to troll ppl out. 30 minutes of dueling or 2v2 without a single stomp should get the message through, right?

I get the feeling someone died in WvW or PvP.

Olvendred.3027:

Sooo many puns I want to make in this thread…

Yeah but at least he brought whine with the cheese in this thread.

I’m not sure what specifically you have in mind with the term “cheese build” but the primary reason for me hating the PvP related content in this game is because it’s saturated with condition and bunker builds.

OP how can you know exactly what they are using? Are you calling specific builds or profession mechanics “cheese”? Because quite often those cheese builds that are being used are probably playing off of the strengths of the profession and perhaps modified to fit the player’s style better.

And because they are playing off the strengths of the profession, most likely it’ll take someone who knows how to shut the mechanics down to get an edge.

OR you could play them yourself.

OR anet could make other parts of the professions more appealing.

X T D.6458:

Ayrilana.1396:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Why not find a counter to the builds? There has to be one.

They’d have to wait for someone to publicly post one which may not ever happen.

There are many websites that post all types of builds, also simply asking friends, guildies etc usually works for most people. Its not hard for anet to know what people are running. They nerf one, to bring up another, it gets abused, nerfed etc etc

Except people don’t otherwise we wouldn’t have this thread to post in.

- what is a cheese build?
- is this thread like buff everything I am, nerf everything I’m not? because is talking in too general terms. he did not tell even what class he is (I hope is a thief so I can LOL)

Back in the day a “cheese” build was an optimum build. If you have a cheese build obviously you’re going to run with it because it would be stupid not to.

If you beat these people every time you met them in combat would your build be considered a cheese build? Is it only a cheese build when you lose the fight? So you lose and it has to be one of those nasty cheese builds because there is no way you should lose is there? I had someone accusing me of running a cheese build in WvW on my mesmer after I killed him for the forth or fifth time. He truly believed I was running a PU mesmer and would not believe me when I told him I had no points at all in Chaos and was running a straight up power/precision build.

They should have split game into 3 game modes – WvW/sPvP and PvE.
Currently, they can’t boost Conditions due to them being overpowered in sPvP and WvW.

I believe what the OP may be referring to as “Cheese” is the burst capacity. For me, I believe it’s been an issue for far too long. When you can burst down an opponent faster than their healing skill animation takes to proc the heal, there’s a serious problem in design. Think about it, have you ever heard or read a complaint from someone whom lost in a 1v bunker bunker fight? Not really, no. Getting burst down in under 3 seconds, now that you’ll hear rage about.

DeWolfe.2174:

I believe what the OP may be referring to as “Cheese” is the burst capacity. For me, I believe it’s been an issue for far too long. When you can burst down an opponent faster than their healing skill animation takes to proc the heal, there’s a serious problem in design. Think about it, have you ever heard or read a complaint from someone whom lost in a 1v bunker bunker fight? Not really, no. Getting burst down in under 3 seconds, now that you’ll hear rage about.

That only happens if you’re running a burst build yourself. Balanced builds don’t get destroyed in 3 seconds by a burst build, only glass cannons do, and running a glass cannon is your own choice. It’s a do or die build where you need to be the one opening with the burst and not the one trying to press the heal skill.

Welcome to Build Wars 2

A couple of months back, i got bored with running with the zerg all the time and tried roaming. I quickly became annoyed by all the condi gankers, so i made a counter build on my warrior. Full ascended sentinel with soldier trinkets to max vitality (toughness doesnt work against condis), lots of condi removal, stability, stances traited and mobility.
Fully buffed, I was around 35k health and very hard to kill. Of course, i would hardly win a duel (but also not loose one because i could get out any time) but i had enough power to flip camps and kill dollies. My main objective was to annoy the enemies, so they would start to chase me. Most of the time, i kept their EB waypoint blocked by tagging the keep and i would usually be chased by a couple of condi gankers trying to catch me. It turns out that people get more annoyed, if they cant kill you compared to getting killed by you. I never got so much grief in whispers than while doing this.
I actually had alot of fun leaving a group of chasers behind me with a leap over the plenty gaps around blue keep or find a thief who was dump enough to chase me into the water and get insta killed.

What im trying to say is, if you get bored of something, try to mix it up a little and dont wait for Anet to mix it up for you.

Well not all are able to chuck out a full Ascended set just for the heck of it, but I do get your meaning, Wanze

Tom Gore.4035:

Well not all are able to chuck out a full Ascended set just for the heck of it, but I do get your meaning, Wanze

Well, im sure a skilled player can do the same in an exotic set. I just run ascended because im a bad player (im a clicker!) and can afford it.

Anyways, no white swords in wvw got me on a hiatus and im grinding out the sentinel trinkets atm. Doing daily AC and CoE and pvp to complete my dungeon collections.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Why not find a counter to the builds? There has to be one.

Usually such a build is a “cheese build” of other class.

http://metabattle.com/wiki/MetaBattle_Wiki

You’re welcome.

Every build there’s got a little list at the end telling you what is a hard counter to these builds. No build is unbeatable, but if you’re in sPvP you gotta send the guy most likely to beat that build off to do just that. If you’re in WvW and end up 1v1 with the guy while Roaming, then there are just way too many circumstances to chalk up a loss to any one reason, and even then it’s mostly due to not knowing what your opponent’s running and being caught unaware by a spike.

Also, it’s never ever a bad idea to disengage if you’re losing. In sPvP, your team will (Most often) rather have you losing a cap and rotating Mid while healing up in 5s rather than you losing a cap and eating dirt for 15s. And while roaming solo in WvW, there’s never any reason not to disengage if you’re losing, because the place is huge. If you die and have to respawn, you’ll have to charge across the entire map again.

There are some builds that are pretty cheesy, ones that allow the user to reset the fight should things start going wrong for them., or be so immune to condition damage that you actually buff them by landing a condition on them, or have so much knockdown or stun that you’d need three sets of stability to even try fighting them.

When the only counter to a build is to change your build so that it can counter and only counter the cheesy one, then it becomes an issue that should be looked at.

If a “build” is effective, then players are going to run that build or a variant thereof majority of the time. Why shouldn’t they?

Most of the time these builds that are considered standard have been thought out to achieve a maximum return in damage with high sustainability.

I prefer making my own builds but most likely it’s not as efficient as these builds that have been perfected by many players. It’s all in how you want to play.

I only play PvP now and I have no problem playing any professions with my condition ranger or my axe warrior. Countering and positioning go a long way in GW2.

In case anyone was wondering, the word “Cheese” was used 42 times on this thread.

Just thinking , if you can’t beat’m: just try somthing different….

Bring a guild of clerics necro’s and suck the life out of them…

375 marks, 225 wells…. transfusion x75: zzzzzzzzlorrrrppp…… done.

New wvw meta. oh and bring some 10-15 nomads/clerics guards for the pain train. Just to keep ’m busy.

A meta is just a meta because a group of people claim it will work… Until it gets destroyed a few times in a row and people’s trust falters… Problem in wvw is commanders tend to have an influence (some attract the whole community on map, some barely get any people) also the trust in commanders tends to matter a lot. I have some I will run into 50% bigger zerg with any day and I know we’ll have a good chance.
Builds are less important while zerging IMHO, BUT when roaming or solo-ing you will notice some builds are horrendous to fight against.

We have a stealth trap in wvw, which is moderately usefull, and we have reveals with ranger…. but it tends to be to little for condi thieves and PU mesmers, I have both a condi thief and a PU mesmer, and my experience using them was: most people run, upon seeing your proffesion, and get support, sometimes a complete guild gets called in to mash you a few times…. just to deter you from continuing on the map.

What are these “cheese builds” of which you speak?

for we cannot tell you the various counters of builds unless we know of what type of “cheese” you are referring to. For rather than Asking the Diaries to cease all shipments of Milk to said Cheese factory. It would behoove you to instead seek advice on what tastes good and would compliment said Cheese. So that your Knowledge and Palette is expanded.

“cheese” builds will always exist, They are easy to play and allow for a simple solution for inexperienced players to be able to Participate and feel like they are actually doing something. As you get better you will often find yourself moving away from said “cheese builds” as your purpose may have very well changed.

99 percent of the time you do not have to change your entire build just to counter one thing. Just a utility slot or 2. The other 1 percent… well don’t get in that fight. or… bring a friend.

:)

Remove the Dire stat from the game and just let all those fools die.
It’s unbelievable how bad they are, only thing that keeps them alive to spam condis is their 3k+ armor.
And no, Dire is not like PVT.

A cheese build I dislike is Knock back engineer builds where they either take bombs if they want to be tanky or flamethrower if they want to be offensive. Pistol and shield gives them a knock back, flamethrower/bomb gives them another. Two turrets in their spare utility slots give them two more knock backs (detonation) and the healing turret a third.

So that’s a build with five A.O.E knockbacks when not every profession has an easy access to stability, and even then by the time stability has ended they will have refreshed at least one of their knock back skills.

Any time I face a flamethrower engineer in PvP I laugh my socks off. Sometimes that laughter gets me killed by them, but very rarely.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Why not find a counter to the builds? There has to be one.

^ This.
If players are becoming so predictable then it makes it easier for you to gain the upper hand through creative counter builds. Period. You’re at an advantage before the match even begins.

Azhure.1857:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Why not find a counter to the builds? There has to be one.

^ This.
If players are becoming so predictable then it makes it easier for you to gain the upper hand through creative counter builds. Period. You’re at an advantage before the match even begins.

Because for the most part by building to counter the Cheese build you weaken your own build.

Say your fighting a knock build, so you take three stability granting utilities. Well there goes your condition clearing ability.

That is assuming the cheese build has a counter that doesn’t require several people.

Shivan.9438:

By cheese builds, do you mean gimmicky, one trick pony kind of things? Those do tend to get annoying and common place, but Anet always gets around to breaking them if they become OP and unbalance things. At least they did in GW1. It’s a trend in MMO’s, people come up with a shiny spec/talent tree and soon everyone starts to migrate to it, then it becomes stale when people figure out how to break it then it repeats itself. It’ll pass.

That’s the problem with any kind of PvP – the developers are constantly chasing the metas and they’re always one step behind. This leaves players who have the time and determination to find the metas to always be the winners instead of players who are actually good players.

X T D.6458:

exactly, if there were perfect balance there would be no counterplay, and no strengths and weakness to seperate classes, they would just have different names to seperate them

So, in that scenario, the winner would be determined by…player skill?

Pipra.7580:

X T D.6458:

exactly, if there were perfect balance there would be no counterplay, and no strengths and weakness to seperate classes, they would just have different names to seperate them

So, in that scenario, the winner would be determined by…player skill?

Or who is the better hacker.

I wish we could switch from using the term “cheese” to “butter”
instead of cheesy builds it would be buttery builds….

It’s okay OP, you can vent your frustration on the forums… You’re not the first, nor the last, but you are one of many.

I remember my first time playing CoD(:BO2) and running into people that drop-shot… I would swear and call things out like “kitten kids drop shotting like nubs”… and then after couple hours I started to dominate (doing much better score/kill-wise) and t-bag them… and at the end I didnt really care about people drop shotting me. True story. I don’t play CoD anymore though, their PC support is kitten.

:D Thought I would vent a bit as well and share a cheesy/buttery/frustrating moment with you OP.