Guild Wars 2

Zero Day.2594:

I wish we could switch from using the term “cheese” to “butter”
instead of cheesy builds it would be buttery builds….

It’s okay OP, you can vent your frustration on the forums… You’re not the first, nor the last, but you are one of many.

I might just do that. I am tired of hearing “cheese build kilt meh”.

qqqqq I losing

must be because enemies are cheap, nothing to do with me~

Can you define what you mean by “cheese build”, if you haven’t already?

Because by and large, whenever I hear that, the definition usually boils down to “Something that I lose against without changing my preferred build”.

It may be harsh to say, but I’ve found that several builds players tend to consider “cheesy” in pvp have very simple counters, be they [Sigil of Doom], [Retaliation] or [Not being a kitten].

Just want to make sure this problem is addressing builds that are, unequivocally excellent in PVP and cannot be beaten by any means, and not just qq over players not spoonfeeding you kills.

Andred.1087:

qqqqq I losing

must be because enemies are cheap, nothing to do with me~

Just like in League of legends there are some classes that are simply numerically better for different situations.

Unless you think say a warrior that can build a crap tonne of toughness so he doesn’t take damage, vitality so that even if he takes damage he can soak it, and condition damage to damage you.

‘But wait’ you cry ‘Condition damage bypasses toughness’.

Indeed it does but a warrior can build so that not only can he cleanse all the conditions on him by shouting, but also that the shouts heal him as well.

There are just some builds that are legitimately throw your hands up in the air bull crap.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Can you define what you mean by “cheese build”, if you haven’t already?

Because by and large, whenever I hear that, the definition usually boils down to “Something that I lose against without changing my preferred build”.

It may be harsh to say, but I’ve found that several builds players tend to consider “cheesy” in pvp have very simple counters, be they [Sigil of Doom], [Retaliation] or [Not being a kitten].

Just want to make sure this problem is addressing builds that are, unequivocally excellent in PVP and cannot be beaten by any means, and not just qq over players not spoonfeeding you kills.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fJAQJASTjMdU5ZnHmhwJaAjgCdqfCrgpAIdRs3HBA-TJRWwA7fCA5vEAA2fgRZAA

I’d consider this a cheese build.

Edit:

Requires conditions to eat through the toughness, but can ignore conditions almost entirely.

Shouts remove conditions and heal, gets a free use of three utility slot skills.

Hammer allows them to knock back and down to prolong the fight until their healing shouts trigger again.

Mad regen on the signet.

Longbow allows easy stacking of might while also denying the ability to fight on point.

It’s a tank that does damage and also heals itself.

Cactus Brawler.7415:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Can you define what you mean by “cheese build”, if you haven’t already?

Because by and large, whenever I hear that, the definition usually boils down to “Something that I lose against without changing my preferred build”.

It may be harsh to say, but I’ve found that several builds players tend to consider “cheesy” in pvp have very simple counters, be they [Sigil of Doom], [Retaliation] or [Not being a kitten].

Just want to make sure this problem is addressing builds that are, unequivocally excellent in PVP and cannot be beaten by any means, and not just qq over players not spoonfeeding you kills.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fJAQJASTjMdU5ZnHmhwJaAjgCdqfCrgpAIdRs3HBA-TJRWwA7fCA5vEAA2fgRZAA

I’d consider this a cheese build.

How is that cheese? You stack the numbers to do the job you want done. I don’t play warrior that often but I have never had problems beating builds like this on my engineer or Mesmer and maybe a little trouble on my Ele.

Cactus Brawler.7415:

Andred.1087:

qqqqq I losing

must be because enemies are cheap, nothing to do with me~

Just like in League of legends there are some classes that are simply numerically better for different situations.

Unless you think say a warrior that can build a crap tonne of toughness so he doesn’t take damage, vitality so that even if he takes damage he can soak it, and condition damage to damage you.

‘But wait’ you cry ‘Condition damage bypasses toughness’.

Indeed it does but a warrior can build so that not only can he cleanse all the conditions on him by shouting, but also that the shouts heal him as well.

There are just some builds that are legitimately throw your hands up in the air bull crap.

The problem with a Full Tough+Vit Warr is that he’ll hit like a wet noodle, and he’ll hit slow as well. He’ll be reliant on Cleanses and Boons to survive, too, because Warriors cannot heal up quickly. Constant application of Poison will disrupt his Healing Signet, Buffing yourself with Boons will render his bonuses moot because he can’t get rid of yours and without Stab, you can freely stunlock him to set up a spike. Celestial Engineer will wreck such a warrior easily.

My point is this: A Tough+Vit shoutheal warr is relatively harmless. Everything has a hard counter, as a team it’s up you and your mates to figure out what that is.

TheSwede.9512:

Cactus Brawler.7415:

Andred.1087:

qqqqq I losing

must be because enemies are cheap, nothing to do with me~

Just like in League of legends there are some classes that are simply numerically better for different situations.

Unless you think say a warrior that can build a crap tonne of toughness so he doesn’t take damage, vitality so that even if he takes damage he can soak it, and condition damage to damage you.

‘But wait’ you cry ‘Condition damage bypasses toughness’.

Indeed it does but a warrior can build so that not only can he cleanse all the conditions on him by shouting, but also that the shouts heal him as well.

There are just some builds that are legitimately throw your hands up in the air bull crap.

The problem with a Full Tough+Vit Warr is that he’ll hit like a wet noodle, and he’ll hit slow as well. He’ll be reliant on Cleanses and Boons to survive, too, because Warriors cannot heal up quickly. Constant application of Poison will disrupt his Healing Signet, Buffing yourself with Boons will render his bonuses moot because he can’t get rid of yours and without Stab, you can freely stunlock him to set up a spike. Celestial Engineer will wreck such a warrior easily.

My point is this: A Tough+Vit shoutheal warr is relatively harmless. Everything has a hard counter, as a team it’s up you and your mates to figure out what that is.

So you decide you can’t kill him and back away, so his team maintains the point, your team has to direct extra people away from other points to gang up on this one guy.

It is somehow not cheesy for one guy to tie up several members of the opposing team? By being unkillable unless focused down by a team?

I mean it seems the hard counter you are suggesting is to give the guy the point he’s defending or to weaken your attack/defense of the other points to take the one that guy is on.

I mean the build I posted has twenty seconds of stability, how are you going to stun lock through that?

I guess my point is if the way to beat a build is to ‘bring more people’ then I find it cheese in the extreme.

I can haz yur stuffs then?

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Can you define what you mean by “cheese build”, if you haven’t already?

I will bravely define what a “cheese build” is by providing a picture of one.

Yes, ladies and gentlemen, that’s a double decker mac’n’cheese cheese burger topped with lettuce and pickles.

This is a cheesy build indeed. It will crit from the inside of you.

“Cheese” is the perfect word to describe the state of pvp these days, but it’s really hard to define.

Think of a bad meal, that you cover with cheese, and now it’s good.

…think of disco clothing.

…think of a kid getting a cheap win, with a huge smile on his face, posing for the camera, as someone says “say cheese”… “cheeeeeeeeeese!”

A cheese build in this game is shatter mesmer. No skill, all luck, and if you get hit, you’re dead. Cheeeeese!

A longbow ranger, 1500 range, while above you, as you fight someone else, and your build has no range skills, whispers you while you’re down, telling you how skilled he is. Cheeese!

A regen warrior in clerics, jumping in circles, /laughing… Cheeese!

A shortbow thief teleporting around a mace guardian…..

Anet said, over and over again, that they did not want players to be in situations that felt hopeless, but more and more that is exactly how people are left feeling.

There are a few crutch builds that are holding entire classes up. If a mesmer isn’t PU or Shatter, then what else is there? If a necro isn’t terror or power/lich, what else is there?

These cheesy builds aren’t about the user being skilled, they are about negating any skill that their opponent may have, and leaving them no chance for victory.

Cactus Brawler.7415:

TheSwede.9512:

Cactus Brawler.7415:

Andred.1087:

qqqqq I losing

must be because enemies are cheap, nothing to do with me~

Just like in League of legends there are some classes that are simply numerically better for different situations.

Unless you think say a warrior that can build a crap tonne of toughness so he doesn’t take damage, vitality so that even if he takes damage he can soak it, and condition damage to damage you.

‘But wait’ you cry ‘Condition damage bypasses toughness’.

Indeed it does but a warrior can build so that not only can he cleanse all the conditions on him by shouting, but also that the shouts heal him as well.

There are just some builds that are legitimately throw your hands up in the air bull crap.

The problem with a Full Tough+Vit Warr is that he’ll hit like a wet noodle, and he’ll hit slow as well. He’ll be reliant on Cleanses and Boons to survive, too, because Warriors cannot heal up quickly. Constant application of Poison will disrupt his Healing Signet, Buffing yourself with Boons will render his bonuses moot because he can’t get rid of yours and without Stab, you can freely stunlock him to set up a spike. Celestial Engineer will wreck such a warrior easily.

My point is this: A Tough+Vit shoutheal warr is relatively harmless. Everything has a hard counter, as a team it’s up you and your mates to figure out what that is.

So you decide you can’t kill him and back away, so his team maintains the point, your team has to direct extra people away from other points to gang up on this one guy.

It is somehow not cheesy for one guy to tie up several members of the opposing team? By being unkillable unless focused down by a team?

I mean it seems the hard counter you are suggesting is to give the guy the point he’s defending or to weaken your attack/defense of the other points to take the one that guy is on.

I mean the build I posted has twenty seconds of stability, how are you going to stun lock through that?

I guess my point is if the way to beat a build is to ‘bring more people’ then I find it cheese in the extreme.

We’re delving away from the topic here, I’m feeling, so I’ll be brief because this is purely PvP mechanics.

Yes, if you can’t win a fight, DON’T keep on fighting. Rotate to another point, cap that. If he’s left alone, you’re team’s fighting 5v4 and should easily cap the remaining 2 Points and win the match.
EDIT: Forgot the situation where your entire idea was simply to decap and harass. Then you do just that and basically render him moot, but it’s generally only useful if A/ Your team knows what they’re doing and B/ You can keep more than just the warrior busy in 1v2 to let your own team fight 4v3 elsewhere.

Keeping more than 1 Person occupied in 1vX while remaining on point is the very idea of a Bunker build. The downside is that Bunker Builds often lack Mobility and Stopping Power, making them easy to outmaneuver through communication and proper rotation.

If you’re fighting him 1v1, your team is not weakened in the least. They’re at a 4v4 situation. If one of your teammates show to help, you’re 2v1 and should be able to finish it Quickly (if you Can’t, well sorry to say, but then that guy is out of your league). In that case, either you Rotate, or wait for your allies to finish their matches. (If you do get help, chances are they just beat their opponents and put them on Respawn.)

20 Seconds of Stability means Fear-locked if they’re fighting a Necro, or Yummy-mummy Boon-stealing for a Thief. Stability also does nothing against Conditions and actual damage, either. They just can’t be controlled, which doesn’t matter at all if you control the Range and Pace of the fight through Positioning and clever use of dodges.

As for the solution being “Bring more people”, it’s not what I said. The solution is sending the right guy for the job to deal with said Warrior. When i said “You and Your Team” I was talking about Communication, a precious tool that sadly doesn’t see as much use as it should in PuGs.