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Combo balance

The game is two years old, and with the incoming Heart of Thorn and the recent profession balance, I think that the next balance needed is combo effects.

Elementalist fields are Fire, Lightning, Ice and Water
Mesmer field is Ethereal
Necromancer fields are Dark and Poison
Guardian field is Light
Thief field is Smoke
With other professions able to use some of them too.

What we see is that most people want Fire for might, and Water for heal.
Other fields get are unwanted, and there are people who spit on other professions for covering their precious fire/water fields with their own.

How to solve this issue?

Nerf, for example, Fire blast into providing 3x Might for 5s instead of 20s ?
It could broke the combo feature into the depth of uselessness because trying to combo would be too costly for their benefits, making combo an “things that happens sometimes”.

Improve other combo to be on par with the others?
But then, comboing could became an end in itself, making professions just “flavor” for a gameplay focused on comboing out the victory, a so bland gameplay.

Make combo finisher trigger all the fields types available ?
Then, it would not matter if a field cover an other, but stacking the same fields would provide no benefit.
But being able to combo on every field type available would be overpower in many cases…

That’s a difficult question that need to be addressed.
What do you think about this? Any suggestion to improve it?

Combo balance

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Posted by: sarasvatri.6871

sarasvatri.6871

I think that instead of nerfing anything it would be nice to have situations where the full variety of fields was useful.

Combo balance

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Posted by: Erasmus.1624

Erasmus.1624

= AURA CHANGES (given that many come from combo finishers) =
BASE CHANGES

Auras now grant attack bonuses when striking foes rather than when being struck by a foe; every aura-specific on-hit effect has an internal cooldown of 1 s per target; auras do not stack in intensity nor in duration (new auras of the same type will overwrite old ones).
These on-hit effects have a maximum range of 600 (if a player has an aura and successfully strikes a target that is outside of 600 range, no aura effect will be applied to that target). The only exceptions to this rule are magnetic aura and the new fire aura.

Your attacks confuse foes. If you successfully evade or block an attack while under the effects of chaos armor, you gain health and fury. (Cannot gain health and fury more than once within the interval; cannot inflict confusion more than once within the interval per target)
Healing: 440 (0.2)
Fury: 3 s
Interval: 1 s
Confusion (1): 3 s
Interval: 1 s
Range: 600
- This effect now counts as an aura.

Your attacks deal more damage.
Damage bonus: +10%
- This aura has no range limit or cooldown on its effect.

Cure yourself of burning and chilled when you gain this aura. Your attacks chill foes; gain bonus toughness while this aura is in effect. (Cannot inflict chill more than once within the interval per target)
Bonus toughness: +200
Chilled: 1½ s
Interval: 1 s
Range: 600

Briefly stun adjacent foes when you gain this aura. Your attacks inflict vulnerability. (Cannot inflict vulnerability more than once within the interval per target)
Number of targets: 3
Initial stun: ½ s
Stun radius: 180
Vulnerability (2): 5 s
Interval: 1 s
Range: 600

No changes.

Cure a condition when you gain this aura. Your attacks remove boons from foes if they have a total number of active boons that exceeds the threshold. (Cannot remove boons more than once within the interval per target) (You cannot gain this aura more than once every 10 seconds)
Initial conditions cured: 1
Boon number threshold: 3
Boons removed per attack: 1
Interval: 3 s
Range: 600

= WHIRL FINISHERS =
BASE CHANGES

Whirl finishers now generate point-blank AoE effects
Whirl finishers now cannot trigger more than once per unique field, per player (a field can be the subject of multiple whirl finishers, but not unless multiple individual players use a whirl finisher within it over the course of its duration).
Ethereal fields do not have a limit on the number of whirl finisher that a single player or NPC unit can execute within them.

Now grants the user 1 stack of the life-leech bonus granted by Rune of Vampirism (only grants effect to the one who whirl comboed the dark field; not an AoE effect).

Now inflicts PBAoE confusion (1 stack; 4 s; Radius: 210; Number of targets: 5)

Now grant PBAoE fire auras (2 s; Radius: 240; Number of allies: 5)

Now inflicts PBAoE chill (1 s; Radius: 210; Number of targets: 5)

Now cures conditions on nearby allies (Conditions cured: 1; Radius: 240; Number of allies: 5)

Now inflicts PBAoE vulnerability (3 stacks; 5 s; Radius: 210; Number of targets: 5)

Now inflicts PBAoE poison (1 stack; 4 s; Radius: 210; Number of targets: 5)

Now creates a swirling dome of smoke which destroys incoming projectiles (Duration: 2½ s; Radius: 150)
Can only be generated once per smoke field.

Now grants PBAoE healing (Healing: 600 (0.2); Radius: 240; Number of allies: 5)
Whirling in a water field yields diminishing returns: the first whirl results in full healing (600 (0.2)), but afterward the water field applies a 25% total healing reduction to each subsequent whirl executed within it. This reduction does not apply to the modifier (0.2), but rather to the total amount of base health healed (600). This reduction penalty stacks additively, meaning that if a water field is whirled more than 4 times, it will no longer yield any healing at all from subsequent whirls (players could still combo the field with a whirl finisher, though).

= BLAST FINISHERS =

Might reduced from 3 stacks (20 s) to 3 stacks (10 s).

Base healing reduced from 1320 (0.2) to 808 (0.2).
Blasting a water field yields diminishing returns: the first blast results in full healing (600 (0.2)), but afterward the water field applies a 25% total healing reduction to each subsequent blast finisher executed within it. This reduction does not apply to the modifier (0.2), but rather to the total amount of base health healed (600). This reduction penalty stacks additively, meaning that if a water field is blasted more than 4 times, it will no longer yield any healing at all from subsequent blasts (the field would still exist and could be blasted, though).

Chaos armor duration increased from 3 s to 4 s.

Stealth duration reduced from 3 s to 2 s.
Now also grant super speed (1½ s) when blasted.

Now grant light auras (3 s; Radius: 240; Number of allies: 5)

Swiftness removed from game.
Player base speed increased by 25%.
Lightning field blasts now grant super speed (4 s).

(edited 2015-10-10 08:02:59 by Erasmus.1624)

Combo balance

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Posted by: Chaos.3579

Chaos.3579

Erasmus.1624:
= AURA CHANGES (given that many come from combo finishers) =
BASE CHANGES

Auras now grant attack bonuses when striking foes rather than when being struck by a foe; every aura-specific on-hit effect has an internal cooldown of 1 s per target; auras do not stack in intensity nor in duration (new auras of the same type will overwrite old ones).

These on-hit effects have a maximum range of 600 (if a player has an aura and successfully strikes a target that is outside of 600 range, no aura effect will be applied to that target). The only exceptions to this rule are magnetic aura and the new fire aura.

Your attacks confuse foes. If you successfully evade or block an attack while under the effects of chaos armor, you gain health and fury. (Cannot gain health and fury more than once within the interval; cannot inflict confusion more than once within the interval per target)

Healing: 440 (0.2)

Fury: 3 s

Interval: 1 s

Confusion (1): 3 s

Interval: 1 s

Range: 600

This effect now counts as an aura.

Your attacks deal more damage.

Damage bonus: +10%

This aura has no range limit or cooldown on its effect.

Cure yourself of burning and chilled when you gain this aura. Your attacks chill foes; gain bonus toughness while this aura is in effect. (Cannot inflict chill more than once within the interval per target)

Bonus toughness: +200

Chilled: 1½ s

Interval: 1 s

Range: 600

Briefly stun adjacent foes when you gain this aura. Your attacks inflict vulnerability. (Cannot inflict vulnerability more than once within the interval per target)

Number of targets: 3

Initial stun: ½ s

Stun radius: 180

Vulnerability (2): 5 s

Interval: 1 s

Range: 600

No changes.

Cure a condition when you gain this aura. Your attacks remove boons from foes if they have a total number of active boons that exceeds the threshold. (Cannot remove boons more than once within the interval per target) (You cannot gain this aura more than once every 10 seconds)

Initial conditions cured: 1

Boon number threshold: 3

Boons removed per attack: 1

Interval: 3 s

Range: 600

= WHIRL FINISHERS =
BASE CHANGES

Whirl finishers now generate point-blank AoE effects

Whirl finishers now cannot trigger more than once per unique field.

Now grants the user 1 stack of the life-leech bonus granted by Rune of Vampirism (only grants effect to the one who whirl comboed the dark field; not an AoE effect).

Now inflicts PBAoE confusion (1 stack; 4 s; Radius: 210; Number of targets: 5)

Now grant PBAoE fire auras (2 s; Radius: 240; Number of allies: 5)

Now inflicts PBAoE chill (1 s; Radius: 210; Number of targets: 5)

Now cures conditions on nearby allies (Conditions cured: 1; Radius: 240; Number of allies: 5)

Now inflicts PBAoE vulnerability (3 stacks; 5 s; Radius: 210; Number of targets: 5)

Now inflicts PBAoE poison (1 stack; 4 s; Radius: 210; Number of targets: 5)

Now creates a swirling dome of smoke which destroys incoming projectiles (Duration: 2½ s; Radius: 150)

Now grants PBAoE healing (Healing: 600 (0.2); Radius: 240; Number of allies: 5)

Whirling in a water field yields diminishing returns: the first whirl results in full healing (600 (0.2)), but afterward the water field applies a 25% total healing reduction to each subsequent whirl executed within it. This reduction does not apply to the modifier (0.2), but rather to the total amount of base health healed (600). This reduction penalty stacks additively, meaning that if a water field is whirled more than 4 times, it will no longer yield any healing at all from subsequent whirls (players could still combo the field with a whirl finisher, though).

= BLAST FINISHERS =

Might reduced from 3 stacks (20 s) to 3 stacks (10 s).

Base healing reduced from 1320 (0.2) to 808 (0.2).

Blasting a water field yields diminishing returns: the first blast results in full healing (600 (0.2)), but afterward the water field applies a 25% total healing reduction to each subsequent blast finisher executed within it. This reduction does not apply to the modifier (0.2), but rather to the total amount of base health healed (600). This reduction penalty stacks additively, meaning that if a water field is blasted more than 4 times, it will no longer yield any healing at all from subsequent blasts (the field would still exist and could be blasted, though).

Chaos armor duration increased from 3 s to 4 s.

Stealth duration reduced from 3 s to 2 s.

Now also grant super speed (1½ s) when blasted.

Now grant light auras (3 s; Radius: 240; Number of allies: 5)

Swiftness removed from game.

Player base speed increased by 25%.

Lightning field blasts now grant super speed (4 s).

probably the best ideas when it comes to combo balance ive seen in a long time.
there are several issues and stuff i do not agree with. however for the most part i like the feel of it. making all fields useful.
+1 me liky

Nil Chaos Signature Build
http://www.twitch.tv/chaosoftwillight

(edited 2015-10-10 00:38:25 by Chaos.3579)

Combo balance

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Posted by: Senario.2038

Senario.2038

Erasmus.1624:
= AURA CHANGES (given that many come from combo finishers) =
BASE CHANGES

Auras now grant attack bonuses when striking foes rather than when being struck by a foe; every aura-specific on-hit effect has an internal cooldown of 1 s per target; auras do not stack in intensity nor in duration (new auras of the same type will overwrite old ones).

These on-hit effects have a maximum range of 600 (if a player has an aura and successfully strikes a target that is outside of 600 range, no aura effect will be applied to that target). The only exceptions to this rule are magnetic aura and the new fire aura.

Your attacks confuse foes. If you successfully evade or block an attack while under the effects of chaos armor, you gain health and fury. (Cannot gain health and fury more than once within the interval; cannot inflict confusion more than once within the interval per target)

Healing: 440 (0.2)

Fury: 3 s

Interval: 1 s

Confusion (1): 3 s

Interval: 1 s

Range: 600

This effect now counts as an aura.

Your attacks deal more damage.

Damage bonus: +10%

This aura has no range limit or cooldown on its effect.

Cure yourself of burning and chilled when you gain this aura. Your attacks chill foes; gain bonus toughness while this aura is in effect. (Cannot inflict chill more than once within the interval per target)

Bonus toughness: +200

Chilled: 1½ s

Interval: 1 s

Range: 600

Briefly stun adjacent foes when you gain this aura. Your attacks inflict vulnerability. (Cannot inflict vulnerability more than once within the interval per target)

Number of targets: 3

Initial stun: ½ s

Stun radius: 180

Vulnerability (2): 5 s

Interval: 1 s

Range: 600

No changes.

Cure a condition when you gain this aura. Your attacks remove boons from foes if they have a total number of active boons that exceeds the threshold. (Cannot remove boons more than once within the interval per target) (You cannot gain this aura more than once every 10 seconds)

Initial conditions cured: 1

Boon number threshold: 3

Boons removed per attack: 1

Interval: 3 s

Range: 600

= WHIRL FINISHERS =
BASE CHANGES

Whirl finishers now generate point-blank AoE effects

Whirl finishers now cannot trigger more than once per unique field.

Now grants the user 1 stack of the life-leech bonus granted by Rune of Vampirism (only grants effect to the one who whirl comboed the dark field; not an AoE effect).

Now inflicts PBAoE confusion (1 stack; 4 s; Radius: 210; Number of targets: 5)

Now grant PBAoE fire auras (2 s; Radius: 240; Number of allies: 5)

Now inflicts PBAoE chill (1 s; Radius: 210; Number of targets: 5)

Now cures conditions on nearby allies (Conditions cured: 1; Radius: 240; Number of allies: 5)

Now inflicts PBAoE vulnerability (3 stacks; 5 s; Radius: 210; Number of targets: 5)

Now inflicts PBAoE poison (1 stack; 4 s; Radius: 210; Number of targets: 5)

Now creates a swirling dome of smoke which destroys incoming projectiles (Duration: 2½ s; Radius: 150)

Can only be generated once per smoke field.

Now grants PBAoE healing (Healing: 600 (0.2); Radius: 240; Number of allies: 5)

Whirling in a water field yields diminishing returns: the first whirl results in full healing (600 (0.2)), but afterward the water field applies a 25% total healing reduction to each subsequent whirl executed within it. This reduction does not apply to the modifier (0.2), but rather to the total amount of base health healed (600). This reduction penalty stacks additively, meaning that if a water field is whirled more than 4 times, it will no longer yield any healing at all from subsequent whirls (players could still combo the field with a whirl finisher, though).

= BLAST FINISHERS =

Might reduced from 3 stacks (20 s) to 3 stacks (10 s).

Base healing reduced from 1320 (0.2) to 808 (0.2).

Blasting a water field yields diminishing returns: the first blast results in full healing (600 (0.2)), but afterward the water field applies a 25% total healing reduction to each subsequent blast finisher executed within it. This reduction does not apply to the modifier (0.2), but rather to the total amount of base health healed (600). This reduction penalty stacks additively, meaning that if a water field is blasted more than 4 times, it will no longer yield any healing at all from subsequent blasts (the field would still exist and could be blasted, though).

Chaos armor duration increased from 3 s to 4 s.

Stealth duration reduced from 3 s to 2 s.

Now also grant super speed (1½ s) when blasted.

Now grant light auras (3 s; Radius: 240; Number of allies: 5)

Swiftness removed from game.

Player base speed increased by 25%.

Lightning field blasts now grant super speed (4 s).

Too broad for changes, tell me. What does this accomplish except nerfing classes which rely on these combos and buffing other classes? It is totally biased without any compensation for classes who are largely fine because of combos.

Ele water fields are pretty meh without somebody else blasting them. Fire field might being lowered would only make people not use them at all when there are better ways of stacking might (Empower anybody?), you have to use two cooldowns typically to even blast a field.

All in all it just seems like Ele would be nerfed into the ground with these changes. What use are they anymore? Water fields will be terrible so might as well take a druid, fire fields won’t even grant might and other classes have an easier time generating might or putting more damage into their builds due to higher base hp or a heavier armor type. Their auras also will no longer match up anything they do and are weaker in some cases.

I can’t comment in detail on Engie because I don’t play Engie but it seems that their combo fields would also suffer because of these changes. They are some of the few people I ever see that actually combo their water fields/other fields.

Combos are fine as is and changing the base mechanics would mean rebalancing at least one entire class for no reason.

Combo balance

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Posted by: Iyeru.5240

Iyeru.5240

No because strategy is important. We could also add “Major” Combo fields, where if you use a combo field of the same type on top of another, the combo field is extended, and is more powerful (and becomes its elemental color, rather than white.

Now why does that sound familiar? Oh right, because it’s in Tales of the Abyss.

* (A strange light fills the room. Twilight is shining ahead. You’re filled with, DETERMINATION.)

Combo balance

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Posted by: Erasmus.1624

Erasmus.1624

Senario.2038:
Too broad for changes, tell me. What does this accomplish except nerfing classes which rely on these combos and buffing other classes? It is totally biased without any compensation for classes who are largely fine because of combos.

Ele water fields are pretty meh without somebody else blasting them.

The problem is, the only place where Elementalist water fields are blasted frequently is mainly in WvW. WvW is innately imbalanced because of the number of players on the field. Given the sheer body blobs, water fields are enough to full heal huge numbers of players. When fighting in smaller groups, players have their own skills and traits which heal them passively, often instantly and/or negate incoming damage for extended periods of time—all of which trivialize the idea of taking a water field to manually blast for healing. It’s either overpowered and mindless because it turns an entire player into just a single button in zergs or it’s worthless because general combat is balanced around passive triggers, hard counters and knee-jerk twitch reaction buttons/procs. Adding diminishing returns and opening up water field healing to whirl finishers would force some responsibility and opportunity cost onto people attempting to heal large groups.

Senario.2038:
Fire field might being lowered would only make people not use them at all when there are better ways of stacking might (Empower anybody?)

Empower is far more of a battery for self healing rather than an efficient way to stack might given the relation between its cast-time and the might duration that it grant, that it roots the player, and that the player can’t take actions while performing that skill (not that that’s a bad thing, it’s just not as efficient as passively generating might for doing a regular rotation—which is the norm in GW2).

Senario.2038:
All in all it just seems like Ele would be nerfed into the ground with these changes. What use are they anymore? Water fields will be terrible so might as well take a druid, fire fields won’t even grant might and other classes have an easier time generating might or putting more damage into their builds due to higher base hp or a heavier armor type. Their auras also will no longer match up anything they do and are weaker in some cases.

Ele would still be fine because of its base DPS and the fact that it also grants fury when blasting a fire field. HP and armor rating don’t matter in PvE because of how nobody is supposed to get hit anyway, and it’s not that hard to accomplish that (if not that then certainly not dying at the very least).

Auras are already boring effects that have no active application. “Let enemies hit you for a bonus,” is design indicative of passive and reactive play. By turning auras into active bonuses, it allows a player to press an advantage without facetanking everything for some piddly bonus (even if facetanking damage is easy to do and often without legitimate consequence in GW2). I’ve already proposed a big update to Elementalist in which it received quite a few whirl finishers. Being able to coat a 5-man in “+10% damage bonus” aura is pretty good on top of already passing out free fury, might and DPS.

Senario.2038:
I can’t comment in detail on Engie because I don’t play Engie but it seems that their combo fields would also suffer because of these changes. They are some of the few people I ever see that actually combo their water fields/other fields.

Healing turret is unfairly the most powerful healing skill in the game and blasting it/leaping in its water field isn’t skillful or interesting given its duration. Same goes for any other field produced by that class. They have a plethora of instant blast finishers along with a load of combo fields. Pressing buttons isn’t necessarily indicative of a skillful player or good design: it’s just to show that one person actually can read tooltips.

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Posted by: TheSwede.9512

TheSwede.9512

I have a few ideas myself.

Dark Armor

Surrounds the player in a Dark Aura, causing them to Blind (2s) enemies that attack them while granting Stability (1 stack, 4s) to the player. This can only happen at most Once every second per attacker.

Toxic Aura

Surround the Player in a Toxic Aura, causing them to Poison (2 stack, 4s) and remove 1 Boon from enemies that attack them. This can only happen Once every 2 seconds per attacker.

Frost Aura

Additionally grants Regeneration (4s) to the player whenever it Chills an enemy.

Chaos Armor

Enemies who attack now gain 1 Random Damaging Condition (Confusion/Torment/Burning; 1 stack, 3s) and 1 Random Debilitating (Blindness/Weakness/Vulnerability; 1 stack, 3s) when triggering Chaos Armor.

Dark Fields

Now applies AoE Dark Aura for 4s to nearby Allies.

Poison Fields

Now applies AoE Toxic Aura for 4s to nearby Allies.

Dark Fields

Now applies Dark Aura to yourself for 4s.

Poison Fields

Now applies Toxic Aura to yourself for 4s.

Combo balance

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Posted by: Senario.2038

Senario.2038

Erasmus.1624:
Senario.2038:
Too broad for changes, tell me. What does this accomplish except nerfing classes which rely on these combos and buffing other classes? It is totally biased without any compensation for classes who are largely fine because of combos.

Ele water fields are pretty meh without somebody else blasting them.

The problem is, the only place where Elementalist water fields are blasted frequently is mainly in WvW. WvW is innately imbalanced because of the number of players on the field. Given the sheer body blobs, water fields are enough to full heal huge numbers of players. When fighting in smaller groups, players have their own skills and traits which heal them passively, often instantly and/or negate incoming damage for extended periods of time—all of which trivialize the idea of taking a water field to manually blast for healing. It’s either overpowered and mindless because it turns an entire player into just a single button in zergs or it’s worthless because general combat is balanced around passive triggers, hard counters and knee-jerk twitch reaction buttons/procs. Adding diminishing returns and opening up water field healing to whirl finishers would force some responsibility and opportunity cost onto people attempting to heal large groups.

Senario.2038:
Fire field might being lowered would only make people not use them at all when there are better ways of stacking might (Empower anybody?)

Empower is far more of a battery for self healing rather than an efficient way to stack might given the relation between its cast-time and the might duration that it grant, that it roots the player, and that the player can’t take actions while performing that skill (not that that’s a bad thing, it’s just not as efficient as passively generating might for doing a regular rotation—which is the norm in GW2).

Senario.2038:
All in all it just seems like Ele would be nerfed into the ground with these changes. What use are they anymore? Water fields will be terrible so might as well take a druid, fire fields won’t even grant might and other classes have an easier time generating might or putting more damage into their builds due to higher base hp or a heavier armor type. Their auras also will no longer match up anything they do and are weaker in some cases.

Ele would still be fine because of its base DPS and the fact that it also grants fury when blasting a fire field. HP and armor rating don’t matter in PvE because of how nobody is supposed to get hit anyway, and it’s not that hard to accomplish that (if not that then certainly not dying at the very least).

Auras are already boring effects that have no active application. “Let enemies hit you for a bonus,” is design indicative of passive and reactive play. By turning auras into active bonuses, it allows a player to press an advantage without facetanking everything for some piddly bonus (even if facetanking damage is easy to do and often without legitimate consequence in GW2). I’ve already proposed a big update to Elementalist in which it received quite a few whirl finishers. Being able to coat a 5-man in “+10% damage bonus” aura is pretty good on top of already passing out free fury, might and DPS.

Senario.2038:
I can’t comment in detail on Engie because I don’t play Engie but it seems that their combo fields would also suffer because of these changes. They are some of the few people I ever see that actually combo their water fields/other fields.

Healing turret is unfairly the most powerful healing skill in the game and blasting it/leaping in its water field isn’t skillful or interesting given its duration. Same goes for any other field produced by that class. They have a plethora of instant blast finishers along with a load of combo fields. Pressing buttons isn’t necessarily indicative of a skillful player or good design: it’s just to show that one person actually can read tooltips.

WvW is not inherently imbalanced because of a numbers game. That is a problem with only big differences in numbers and not a problem with WvW. And frequently I’ve seen smaller groups take out much larger groups based on skill and smart positioning. The amount of people healed is actually not high because if you look at the water field it has a max amount of targets 5. Blasting is the only reason they are effective in any capacity, otherwise you put down a water field and it would heal a little bit only for you to get hit for that amount of damage immediately after. You argue that it turns a player into a one button wonder but you forget elementalist has three other attunements, each of which have a use though changing water fields would just straight up nerf ele. Meteor is good for downs, earth has a wall to deny movement through an area, air has static CC.

Doing a regular rotation does not really stack might as fast as you would think. One rotation takes at least a few seconds and if you counted Earth 4, earth dodge, and water 3 on dagger dagger ele that might is not at all a high amount. To nerf fire fields to give less might is again nerfing a class without providing anything in return to keep their balance the same. Them getting Fury is also questionable because you have to trait for that and by no means is it a 100% thing. You don’t trait for fury in PvP because you need the blind, making it so that because fire fields aren’t good you absolutely must trait fury just reduces choice. Most of the fury trait is mediocre unless you are a staff ele. Fury works for but the extra Fire Field time only really helps lava font and lava font on down doesn’t do anything to deter competent players from killing you. Compare this to blind which is good in small groups

PvE balance doesn’t matter all that much and I would not think that Ele would be fine if you suddenly made all of their fields weaker and made others stronger without changing anything else to compensate.

I highly doubt you can determine what is skilled and what is not based on opinion. To me, the sign of a good player is one that knows how to combo fields based on the situation and that includes water fields. It requires practice and I would consider it skillful to use combos in a way that benefits a class and the team.

In general it really just sounds to me like “Nerf fields, buff other fields that aren’t on engie/ele, ignore current good balance for unneeded changes”. Blasting fields takes two cooldowns. One for the skill, one for the player that needs to blast and I believe the reward is not only fair currently but very important to balance and changing it would cause even more balance problems.

Also everybody seems to ignore that the amount of practice needed to play Engie/Ele is much higher than a lot of other classes and with constant nerfs there will come a point where an Engie/Ele will work twice as hard to do half the job other classes do easily. Your definition of “skill” ignores that there is mechanical skill involved when players execute combos. I would argue it is bad design to have a high skillcap class that doesn’t get an adequate compensation for what they’ve practiced over and over to do in quick succession for it to work. While one person may pick up either class and have things click/work for them it is pretty undeniable that the amount of practice needed to master these classes is a bit more than your average class.

Combo balance

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Posted by: Serious.7083

Serious.7083

Erasmus.1624:
Senario.2038:
Too broad for changes, tell me. What does this accomplish except nerfing classes which rely on these combos and buffing other classes? It is totally biased without any compensation for classes who are largely fine because of combos.

Ele water fields are pretty meh without somebody else blasting them.

The problem is, the only place where Elementalist water fields are blasted frequently is mainly in WvW. WvW is innately imbalanced because of the number of players on the field. Given the sheer body blobs, water fields are enough to full heal huge numbers of players. When fighting in smaller groups, players have their own skills and traits which heal them passively, often instantly and/or negate incoming damage for extended periods of time—all of which trivialize the idea of taking a water field to manually blast for healing. It’s either overpowered and mindless because it turns an entire player into just a single button in zergs or it’s worthless because general combat is balanced around passive triggers, hard counters and knee-jerk twitch reaction buttons/procs. Adding diminishing returns and opening up water field healing to whirl finishers would force some responsibility and opportunity cost onto people attempting to heal large groups.

Perhaps changing water fields to produce protection rather than heal? 10 seconds of 33% damage reduction would still be worthwhile but not give the excessive effect of healing a whole zerg.

Combo balance

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Posted by: Erasmus.1624

Erasmus.1624

TheSwede.9512:
I have a few ideas myself.

Dark Armor

Surrounds the player in a Dark Aura, causing them to Blind (2s) enemies that attack them while granting Stability (1 stack, 4s) to the player. This can only happen at most Once every second per attacker.

Toxic Aura

Surround the Player in a Toxic Aura, causing them to Poison (2 stack, 4s) and remove 1 Boon from enemies that attack them. This can only happen Once every 2 seconds per attacker.

Frost Aura

Additionally grants Regeneration (4s) to the player whenever it Chills an enemy.

Chaos Armor

Enemies who attack now gain 1 Random Damaging Condition (Confusion/Torment/Burning; 1 stack, 3s) and 1 Random Debilitating (Blindness/Weakness/Vulnerability; 1 stack, 3s) when triggering Chaos Armor.

Dark Fields

Now applies AoE Dark Aura for 4s to nearby Allies.

Poison Fields

Now applies AoE Toxic Aura for 4s to nearby Allies.

Dark Fields

Now applies Dark Aura to yourself for 4s.

Poison Fields

Now applies Toxic Aura to yourself for 4s.

I’m not a fan of more auras—not merely as an opinion thing, but by virtue of how too many auras will just lead to entire teams being coated in colored bubbles throughout the entire duration of fights. On its own, that’s already rather aesthetically offensive, but I also mentioned the current, problematic and ultimately lackluster design of passive, “get-hit” auras. Making every aura require the player to be hit by an enemy in order to trigger a bonus is just something that further contributes to an already messy, illegible combat experience. Players are already triggering multiple passive procs for damage and conditions with individual, arbitrary attacks; therefore, adding more passive procs with colored bubbles for everyone just means that ANY ACTION WHATSOEVER taken by ANYONE would result in an even more inconsequential and random exchange of passive conditions and damage.

Passive poison, passive boon removal, even more passive (and RNG) conditions for chaos armor, passive STABILITY, it’s like you don’t want people to have any sort of counterplay to anything—everyone just either waits or facetanks passive triggers because they have no choice if they actually want to take any actions whatsoever. Having established, consistent, actively triggered effects leads to combat legibility. Good combat legibility leads to more soft counterplay and lends itself to a higher skill ceiling that isn’t determined almost entirely by the tooltips that someone brought into combat.

Even light aura—something that I included in my suggestions—was something that I would rather just remove entirely. It’s superfluous—like most things in GW2. It’s only there because of some flavor whim. It’s not really a thoughtful contribution to combat.

Combo balance

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Erasmus.1624

Erasmus.1624

Senario.2038:
WvW is not inherently imbalanced because of a numbers game. That is a problem with only big differences in numbers and not a problem with WvW.

Yes, and WvW is a game that often revolves around and is dominated by big number differences. They are rather inclusive.

Senario.2038:
Blasting is the only reason they are effective in any capacity, otherwise you put down a water field and it would heal a little bit only for you to get hit for that amount of damage immediately after.

Therefore, it’s an effective way to mitigating damage. That’s a general purpose of healing: damage is going to exceed HP totals very rapidly, so focused healing can be a way of effectively and responsibly (within the context of design) mitigating that so long as the healing doesn’t effortlessly outpace incoming damage.

Senario.2038:
You argue that it turns a player into a one button wonder but you forget elementalist has three other attunements, each of which have a use though changing water fields would just straight up nerf ele. Meteor is good for downs, earth has a wall to deny movement through an area, air has static CC.

“Four-button wonder” is not helping your argument given that the class has a total of 30 buttons to press. It’s true, though, Elementalist—as most classes are in WvW—are typically condensed into a very small number of their total skills (if not a single button) in many large-scale situations. The power of excessive and improperly limited numbers.

Senario.2038:
Doing a regular rotation does not really stack might as fast as you would think. One rotation takes at least a few seconds and if you counted Earth 4, earth dodge, and water 3 on dagger dagger ele that might is not at all a high amount. To nerf fire fields to give less might is again nerfing a class without providing anything in return to keep their balance the same.

You’re right, it’s about a 3 second process (if we’re talking about setting up might before PvE combat), but most players who rely on those fields and combos for might in PvP just get it passively while they execute their rotation. If we’re going to talk about how players get might passively while just using their skills as they would normally, we might as well also discuss the excessive the amount of might that those players receive when performing these simple, mundane actions.

Senario.2038:
Them getting Fury is also questionable because you have to trait for that and by no means is it a 100% thing.

There is absolutely NO OTHER trait to take in PvE within that trait slot aside from the fury one. Moreover, it’s meta to take fire in PvE for all of the additional DPS. Most encounters don’t last long enough to warrant perma-fury, nor is it of the utmost necessity even in fights protracted out by virtue of boss invulnerability/HP sponging. Even if other players contribute to party fury, the fact is that Persisting Flames is the trait to take because it lengthens the duration of Lava Font—not necessarily just because of the fury.

Senario.2038:
You don’t trait for fury in PvP because you need the blind

It honestly depends. I prefer the longer fire field to smite downed players and also permanently block point access with a pulsing 2k DPS (because Anet in their infinite wisdom made capture nodes the same size as AoEs). Again, as I’ve said before, there are two big facets to Persisting Flames, and the choice often comes down to how your party is composed rather than how the Elementalist feels like playing.

Senario.2038:
Most of the fury trait is mediocre unless you are a staff ele.

And that’s the point: given any situation, the choice between the two options is always obvious so there’s no need to complain or discuss about either trait’s viability.

Senario.2038:
PvE balance doesn’t matter all that much and I would not think that Ele would be fine if you suddenly made all of their fields weaker and made others stronger without changing anything else to compensate.

It’s easy to replace an underused or irrelevant trait with more field bonuses.

Senario.2038:
I highly doubt you can determine what is skilled and what is not based on opinion. To me, the sign of a good player is one that knows how to combo fields based on the situation and that includes water fields. It requires practice and I would consider it skillful to use combos in a way that benefits a class and the team.

Yes, and that’s not wrong, but as I’ve said before, the situations which call for certain fields and combos are incredibly obvious. While there is a skill ceiling to approach, it’s low enough that one can bump one’s forehead on it while walking forward standing upright (provided they straight up do something as simple as peruse the wiki and read tooltips).

Senario.2038:
In general it really just sounds to me like “Nerf fields, buff other fields that aren’t on engie/ele, ignore current good balance for unneeded changes”. Blasting fields takes two cooldowns. One for the skill, one for the player that needs to blast and I believe the reward is not only fair currently but very important to balance and changing it would cause even more balance problems.

The current good balance renders irrelevant most fields and often foregoes their use entirely if they aren’t water and fire. Lightning has a purpose, but that’s only because swiftness is a shoehorned speed buff with no real, immediately viable purpose but to carry a player from point A to point B while outside of combat.

Senario.2038:
Also everybody seems to ignore that the amount of practice needed to play Engie/Ele

Those classes are carried by passive triggers (like most); and a longer, still obvious rotation interrupted only occasionally by instant (mind you INSTANT) reactive skills isn’t something that requires a great deal more “skill” to operate. Yes, muscle memory is something that a player can work on to commit into the subconscious, but it’s not terribly difficult to accomplish and moreover, we’re talking about like a combination of 2 – 4 skills total when dealing with combo fields.

The “average” amount of practice require to master a class in this game is relatively low. What is above “relatively low” is not necessarily a pressing consideration when talking about the trade-offs to actions which have barely any opportunity or resource cost to begin with.

(edited 2015-10-10 05:18:08 by Erasmus.1624)

Combo balance

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Kulvar.1239

Kulvar.1239

Erasmus.1624:
To me, the sign of a good player is one that knows how to combo fields based on the situation and that includes water fields. It requires practice and I would consider it skillful to use combos in a way that benefits a class and the team.

Blasting fields takes two cooldowns. One for the skill, one for the player that needs to blast and I believe the reward is not only fair currently but very important to balance and changing it would cause even more balance problems.

Your definition of “skill” ignores that there is mechanical skill involved when players execute combos. I would argue it is bad design to have a high skillcap class that doesn’t get an adequate compensation for what they’ve practiced over and over to do in quick succession for it to work. While one person may pick up either class and have things click/work for them it is pretty undeniable that the amount of practice needed to master these classes is a bit more than your average class.

(I removed the parts where you just say that everyone else is a crybaby who doesn’t know how to play)

If other fields than fire/water are despised, it limits the professions able to shine by their ability to provide combo availability. If you value the skill needed, you should not limit it to two professions and let other professions synergise by team work on fields/finishers. Using more than two fields type would improve the global skill by adding a need to use the proper field at the proper time.

If fire/water fields where considered useless and dark/poison fields must have, people would complain that necromancers fields are covered by elementalists. It’s bad design in both case.

It’s a good thing if you can complain that someone put the wrong field at the wrong time, it means that they’re tactical and not mindless bonuses.
But when people complain that a field is so unwanted that players should simply avoid to use skills with them, or reroll, it harms the skillplay and teamplay. It also means that the spell effects are so poor that they don’t outbalance the field presence.

Why are they so poor? Either because they’re weak, or because they’re useless.
If they’re weak, they need a little boost to be on par with others.
If they’re useless, either it’s because they’re effectively useless or because the gameplay make them useless, something need to be change to make them interesting.

Currently, some effects rely on PLAYERS actions, others on FOES actions.
Auras, daze, chill, weakness, blindness, retaliation, and confusion rely on FOES actions.
Might rely on PLAYERS actions.

At least for confusion, it now inflict damages over time even if foes do not attacks.
Retaliation and Auras are useless if foes don’t attacks you (or very little if they’re slow).

Control effects may be cancels by foes with Defiance, foes where they would be useful.
And they’re pretty useless on trash mobs.
In this case, it may be that the control conditions need to be reworked or their effects changed to fit with boss without broken them to slugs.
As a theoretical example, weakness could make a boss deal 2% less damages, stacking by intensity up to 10 stack (20% less damages).

Turning Auras into active effect could be cool and more tactical, letting people use it on the target they want and on with they could get the more of the effect.
And not only for combos, but also for the incoming Tempest Auramancer.