Guild Wars 2

Malediktus.9250:

TChalla.7146:

Nodo.6907:

While I won’t comment on whether or not I think this is P2W, do people really feel entitled to a refund for their previous purchases and if so why?

I bought a TV one time that was HD and large…now they have new ones that are thinner with a better picture for cheaper than what I paid originally for my TV in the past but I don’t feel entitled for a refund or an updated TV. I bought the original iPhone for $400 bucks but then soon after they released a new version for $200 and it had 3g and more features so should I be entitled for a full refund or an upgraded version for free?

Using the examples, why do so many people feel they deserve a refund or an update to their existing pick? Please no trolling or flaming, I am just curious on the communities thought on that.

There is no difference between your example and what is going on with the picks. I’d love to see the look on a Best Buy employee’s face if someone went into the store and demanded that their TV be upgraded because a newer one came out a month after they bought it.

There is. A new and better TV takes a lot of money to develop. This pick is just a virtual item which probably took less than 1000 USD to make. And they can make better picks ad infinitivum without it becoming more pricy or being limited by physics.

I seriously doubt you know the costs involved in manufacturing a Projection style TV versus an LCD Flat screen(if you do more power to you) but truth be told, the example I used covered people wanting returns on an older item they purchased after they are unhappy with it once a newer one comes out, even if it has an extra feature(s). This was countered very well by a poster already.

But using my iPhone example, did the new one cost $200 less dollars to make 2 months of when I purchased mine? Original iPhone cost $400…my point is that I bought an item when it came out or when I found one I liked and just because a newer one or better one or upgraded version of one comes out doesn’t mean I deserve an upgrade for free.

Honestly, my post wasn’t about the cost of these items, it was about the entitled who feel they deserve a full refund and/or an upgrade to their existing purchases.

By your logic, if this new item did take an hour extra to create versus the old one because of the new ability it has, you’d be okay paying for it and paying extra?

As I said earlier, I’d prefer to see this addition go away myself. I don’t like how they’ve gone about doing it but that’s a different topic to me.

Next: A gemstore mining pick that has a chance of popping out a precursor.

This itself doesn’t seem too bad, but like others have said, it will likely lead to worse things. Because of this, this item should not be allowed to stay.
If cash shop sales are low, I would like to see them open a thread, or perhaps a game wide poll on what people would like to see in the cash shop and what they think to be unacceptable.

It sets a precedent that could serve to make ANY item you have and bought from the cash shop obsolete by mere whim.

What’s next?

- New Bag slots offers which add the regular bag slot + 2 additional ones for the same price as the old ones?

- Increased Bank space

Either you let people upgrade the infinite tools they have for free or you simply don’t offer ones that give you the same thing PLUS a little bonus (whatever that might be).

Because that way, it’s just a never ending story of upgrades and upgrades you are offered from the cash shop.

Who’s to say in 3 months there won’t be one with a 30% sprocket chance? Plus Azurite Orbs?

kitten that. Create proper items for the cash shop that look aesthetically pleasing or are adding convenience and people who love your game will purchase themselves into bankruptcy alright, but if you start screwing people who already gave you their money, you’ll soon be the only kid in your sandbox (no, not a MMORPG sandbox).

Give me a gem store item to level up and I’ll give you full access to my bank account. eye wink

Maybe I was unclear in my post, or maybe some chose to ignore it, so I will say it in bold, again.

The 20% that I stated was calculated based on a sample of approx 130 pick strikes yielding about 30 sprockets. There is no actual or meaning data/metric that determines the actual amount. Moreover, since it is RNG, each strike has that success or fail. In some cases, all three strikes gave me a sprocket. In some cases 12 strikes yielded none.

Please stop using that number as a fact, cause it is not. And until someone is willing to waste the time to do it for science I would recommend not referencing it as a cornerstone to your argument.

Also, could some of you please share where you received your omniscience? Your ability to rattle off with such specificity and confidence what is coming and how it is coming is truly something to be marveled. Either that, or you are committing the one of the common fallacies of “begging the question”, “straw man”, “arguing from ignorance”, or “appeal to probability”. Take your pick.

Also, people can already “buy” legendaries and the means to get ascended gear. Drop a couple hundred bucks on gems, wait until Tuesday morning when the gem to gold ratio always spikes above 6G, cash them in, and go on a shopping spree. You’ll get what you want and introduce “manufactured” gold into the economy doing FAR more damage than this pick or other items like it ever will.

Trashman.8596:

Give me a gem store item to level up and I’ll give you full access to my bank account. eye wink

Just buy gold and level all the crafting disciplines.

Fernling.1729:

Trashman.8596:

Give me a gem store item to level up and I’ll give you full access to my bank account. eye wink

Just buy gold and level all the crafting disciplines.

NO The P2W cycle must be completed!

I have 8 molten picks. Good to know being an early adopter will be punished in full.

Trashman.8596:

Fernling.1729:

Trashman.8596:

Give me a gem store item to level up and I’ll give you full access to my bank account. eye wink

Just buy gold and level all the crafting disciplines.

NO The P2W cycle must be completed!

No worries, it’s coming.

Trashman.8596:

Fernling.1729:

Trashman.8596:

Give me a gem store item to level up and I’ll give you full access to my bank account. eye wink

Just buy gold and level all the crafting disciplines.

NO The P2W cycle must be completed!

I wouldn’t see a problem with selling levels directly through the cash shop. It would actually be really nice, as long as they are reasonably priced, say 10 levels for 250 gems.

VOLKON.1290:

Aeonblade.8709:

VOLKON.1290:

Aeonblade.8709:

Ayrilana.1396:

Some people either need to look up the definition for what pay to win is since this clearly is not. People are either misinformed or just trolling and using this as another opportunity to attack the game and/or Anet.

There is no concrete definition of P2W. It varies from person to person. This has been discussed to death on this forum, and P2W for one person is not P2W to another. Being hostile and accusing people of trolling for stating their opinion just makes you look silly and reinforces other’s points.

I disagree. There is the “official” description of “pay to win”, which directly involves paying cash for an advantage, usually in PvP, that cannot be obtained without making the cash purchase and there’s the watered-down version people tend to use to stir up emotions due to the stigma associated with the actual definition. I abhor pay to win. If ANet were to introduce actual pay to win items that gave people unobtainable advantages in WvW unless I pay myself, then they’ll flat out lose me and I’m one of the bigger fanboys out there.

This is not pay to win.

And that is your opinion, and I can respect that, even if we do not agree.

This isn’t opinion. This is based solely on fact, from past experience bumping into actual pay to win games. One little space PvP game, I forget the name, you could go so far in without paying but in order to compete you actually had to purchase special ammo and ships that were significantly better than anything you could earn in the game itself. It was, by the very definition of the word, pay to win. You don’t pay, you can’t win, period.

It’s a lot like the use of the word “theory”. There’s the scientific definition, such as used in the ‘Theory of Evolution’, and the layman definition which equates basically to a guess. A scientific theory is practically as good as it gets, yet you’ll sometimes hear people attack evolution as being ‘only a theory’. They’re using the wrong definition in the wrong context to stir an emotional reaction, just like people using ‘pay to win’ here are. It’s no different.

Any way you spin it “fact or farce” it is still only your opinion as is every other reply/response, only opinions and views.

henry.1420:

Mikuchan.7261:

henry.1420:

Problem is people already bought them, so they cannot simply remove the feature, otherwise they have to deal with loads of refund requests.
So I’m thinking this will be the new trend, i.e. new gathering tools have bonus of getting new LS crafting materials, from now on. Previous bought item.. um.. you got your benefit already for the past x months now time to move on and buy a new one.

They discontinued Flamekissed armor.
They can do the same for this.

Then people who choose to keep the tool are having advantages that even real money cannot buy…

Nope. Flamekissed is being redesigned.
The same would happen for this (removing the bonus effect).

I’m not sure how I feel about this.

How do people not see the following points is beyond me:

1. The BiS item is only available on the gem store (P2W)
2. All following items on the gem store in this category must have the same effect or better to be attractive to buyers (P2W power creep)
3. Items of this category formerly sold on the gem store are inferior (end of P2C for this item)

This is just the first item in a row of many to come. It is like ascended rings leading to full ascended. It is bad.

Well I’m sure no one (especially ANet) cares about MHO, but I might as well chime in that I don’t agree with this either. Paying real cash to get something of convenience, that everyone else can get in game, for no cash, is fine. Paying real cash for something that gives me the opportunity to get something of value (regardless of how much value), when you can’t get that something in game, at all, is bad. Very bad. I don’t know if I go as far as P2W, but I agree that this, to me, signals a direction I don’t want this game to go in.

I fail to understand why ANet keeps pushing the boundaries of acceptability. They really could make tons of money with the gem store if they would just more things in there that people want… like… oh, I don’t know… new town clothes that can be worn in battle; more types of backpacks; more armor choices that aren’t rehashed armor; and any number of better convenience/looks items.

Rouven.7409:

I’m not a flipper or speculator in general. I’m not getting rich with my candy node nor do I expect to with the sprocket node (soon).

This was part of my point. There isn’t a reason to think that this item will cause wealth disparity. There isn’t a reason to think items offered in the future will either. It is rather a baseless speculation.

I do understand the difference of how items are acquired and point to another item like the new pick. The nodes btw did not cost me anything, they were acquired through play.

Now you can argue that you still acquire the pick through play if you convert your gold – which is the catch, you have to convert your gold – in a sense it was not “free”, it was paid for.

This is also part of my point. No one is complaining about the nodes creating disparity with current players and future players or being able to become rich off these nodes due to limited supply. The watchwork sprocket is a node available through play. I don’t see how it is something only available through the TP.

Also, while everyone disagrees on what it means to win, I think everyone agrees that the pay part is with real-world money, not in game gold. So while it is expensive using the gold to gem conversion, just playing the game gets you gold.

As to your list.

~snip – char restrictions~

I appreciate your arguments and I was responding a little out of frustration with those that think this item is cause for concern and creating a precedence when there are other items that can be considered more pay to win.

However, the arguments that most of them items on my list can be picked up in the game through other means doesn’t contradict my point, since the home node harvesting and purchase from the TP allow the sprockets to be available to players by playing the game.

Realistically I am not interested in sprockets at all. Currently I only see it as an alternative to level some professions a little bit – but needing 500 will limit that (since I won’t buy them on the TP). Maybe I’ll play with some runes further down the road, the only reason why I “wanted” the node from the meta is a certain sense of completion.

I mean the “Silver Doubloon Pick” or “Wand of Lodestones” might sound nice, but it baffles me how this cannot be perceived as p2w AT LEAST in a sense of an added economical pressure.

I realize that the thread is not specifically with sprockets, but what else might happen. Your examples made me laugh, but I realize that some people might think this could happen and is why so many people see it as pay to win, and yet, I still don’t, regardless of the definition of winning. There are so many, and much faster and easier ways, of making gold than trying to harvest with a chance at gaining that item and resulting gold.

Taking the speculative 20% chance to get a sprocket while harvesting an ore node: if you harvest 100 nodes of copper, you get a minimum of 300 copper ores. This translates into roughly 1.5 gold at about 50 copper per ore. Assuming it is per node and not hit on the node, then you would get approximately 20 sprockets. They would need to sell at 7.5 silver each to get the same amount of gold as you get from the ore. And that is still only 3 gold.

So if lodestones and silver doubloons entered the market through this method, you would be upset? The increased supply would cause the price to drop. And probably drastically and quickly as people tried to take advantage of high TP prices. The supply would cause it to drop rather quickly since people would now expect more availability. It would be sad to see all the silver doubloon drop rate complaint threads change to something like this one though.

How about we drop the supply of any of the items even lower to extra ultra rare and then make them available directly in the cash shop? Bundle of silk, 100 gems, pile of silver doubloons, 500 gems …?

Where “should” be the line?

I don’t disagree with your point here. However, as long as they are still available by playing the game, and it isn’t exclusively a gem store item, then I would not see it as a pay to win item. It is the same as buying gems with cash, converting it to gold, and then buying a stock of silk bolts from the TP today. I fail to see the difference.

Will I need 5 different picks at some point depending on which kind of extra drop I might want?

Yes, and this is the only downside I see to the pick currently.

How about we don’t get nodes as meta rewards anymore, but only a token. Ten tokens and you can buy the random node pack from the store – oh, of course those special tokens also drop sometimes from the BL chest.

I’m not even trying to be pessimistic.

I’m not sure why you said this. I think we should have more home nodes. I would like to see a pristine spore node actually.

Here’s something to think about. Has anything been said as to whether or not there wasn’t going to be another means of getting these sprockets in game?

I know that you can get them through normal game play now, and I know that method is temporary currently. But I haven’t heard them say there won’t be another means of getting these items after the temporary means is removed.

If there was a means in-game of getting these, would this whole argument have even been posted?

TChalla.7146:

Here’s something to think about. Has anything been said as to whether or not there wasn’t going to be another means of getting these sprockets in game?

I know that you can get them through normal game play now, and I know that method is temporary currently. But I haven’t heard them say there won’t be another means of getting these items after the temporary means is removed.

If there was a means in-game of getting these, would this whole argument have even been posted?

When you complete the current Origins of Madness meta, you get a home instance sprocket node to mine daily. It is available in game through normal game play.

And, yes, regardless of that fact, this thread has still been made. And goes on and on…

brittitude.1983:

TChalla.7146:

Here’s something to think about. Has anything been said as to whether or not there wasn’t going to be another means of getting these sprockets in game?

I know that you can get them through normal game play now, and I know that method is temporary currently. But I haven’t heard them say there won’t be another means of getting these items after the temporary means is removed.

If there was a means in-game of getting these, would this whole argument have even been posted?

When you complete the current Origins of Madness meta, you get a home instance sprocket node to mine daily. It is available in game through normal game play.

And, yes, regardless of that fact, this thread has still been made. And goes on and on…

I haven’t done the meta, so I don’t have access to the node. Still, I’m wondering if they’re planning on adding another means of getting them. Again, I haven’t seen anything that says yes or no.

brittitude.1983:

TChalla.7146:

Here’s something to think about. Has anything been said as to whether or not there wasn’t going to be another means of getting these sprockets in game?

I know that you can get them through normal game play now, and I know that method is temporary currently. But I haven’t heard them say there won’t be another means of getting these items after the temporary means is removed.

If there was a means in-game of getting these, would this whole argument have even been posted?

When you complete the current Origins of Madness meta, you get a home instance sprocket node to mine daily. It is available in game through normal game play.

And, yes, regardless of that fact, this thread has still been made. And goes on and on…

What about a new player who comes in after the Meta is closed and after the pick has been pulled off the gem store?

brittitude.1983:

TChalla.7146:

Here’s something to think about. Has anything been said as to whether or not there wasn’t going to be another means of getting these sprockets in game?

I know that you can get them through normal game play now, and I know that method is temporary currently. But I haven’t heard them say there won’t be another means of getting these items after the temporary means is removed.

If there was a means in-game of getting these, would this whole argument have even been posted?

When you complete the current Origins of Madness meta, you get a home instance sprocket node to mine daily. It is available in game through normal game play.

And, yes, regardless of that fact, this thread has still been made. And goes on and on…

The argument would be that you can only mine from the node once a day. With the pick you still have a chance with every node to get sprockets . Oh and here Flame Shield Godspeed.

Even ignoring the pay-to-win issue, this discourages players from buying because we now have confirmation of power creep so surely the next item will do even more.

Nodo.6907:

Malediktus.9250:

TChalla.7146:

Nodo.6907:

While I won’t comment on whether or not I think this is P2W, do people really feel entitled to a refund for their previous purchases and if so why?

I bought a TV one time that was HD and large…now they have new ones that are thinner with a better picture for cheaper than what I paid originally for my TV in the past but I don’t feel entitled for a refund or an updated TV. I bought the original iPhone for $400 bucks but then soon after they released a new version for $200 and it had 3g and more features so should I be entitled for a full refund or an upgraded version for free?

Using the examples, why do so many people feel they deserve a refund or an update to their existing pick? Please no trolling or flaming, I am just curious on the communities thought on that.

There is no difference between your example and what is going on with the picks. I’d love to see the look on a Best Buy employee’s face if someone went into the store and demanded that their TV be upgraded because a newer one came out a month after they bought it.

There is. A new and better TV takes a lot of money to develop. This pick is just a virtual item which probably took less than 1000 USD to make. And they can make better picks ad infinitivum without it becoming more pricy or being limited by physics.

I seriously doubt you know the costs involved in manufacturing a Projection style TV versus an LCD Flat screen(if you do more power to you) but truth be told, the example I used covered people wanting returns on an older item they purchased after they are unhappy with it once a newer one comes out, even if it has an extra feature(s). This was countered very well by a poster already.

But using my iPhone example, did the new one cost $200 less dollars to make 2 months of when I purchased mine? Original iPhone cost $400…my point is that I bought an item when it came out or when I found one I liked and just because a newer one or better one or upgraded version of one comes out doesn’t mean I deserve an upgrade for free.

Honestly, my post wasn’t about the cost of these items, it was about the entitled who feel they deserve a full refund and/or an upgrade to their existing purchases.

By your logic, if this new item did take an hour extra to create versus the old one because of the new ability it has, you’d be okay paying for it and paying extra?

As I said earlier, I’d prefer to see this addition go away myself. I don’t like how they’ve gone about doing it but that’s a different topic to me.

I was not talking about the manufacturing costs, I was talking about the development of said TV.

Wow this Topic blew up fast. 200+ messages within how long?!

Lord Kuru.3685:

Even ignoring the pay-to-win issue, this discourages players from buying because we now have confirmation of power creep so surely the next item will do even more.

And this is where I am currently. I have been looking forward to purchasing an infinite use set of tools as I didn’t pick any up previously. With this addition to the tool, I don’t really want to get this one now because I don’t care about sprockets myself and believe they will continue on with doing it. Before today, that thought never crossed my mind and because I now have that thought I’m hesitant on buying before seeing what becomes the new norm in this game.

Maybe there will be an addition to one of the “future” tools coming out that I’d rather have and with that in mind, it prevents me from wanting to purchase this one or any in this series. Thus, I wait…because all couldn’t remain fair and even across the board…so everyone would be happy.

While the current specimen is not immediately threatening. It is a dangerous idea to be seen on the gem store.

While I am not offended with the current item since sprockets are of little interest and I have the ability to gain sprockets from the meta item. It is still concerning, since it is something that could show up later on for items that I can’t easily obtain. But hopefully ANet already realizes this and isn’t going to play with that fire too much.

From what I have read, most people have explained their reasoning enough that I don’t have to add anything else. Other then my +1 to a concerned Tyrian for this possible item trend.

How is this pay to win, while the ores aren’t?

pswendel.8179:

brittitude.1983:

TChalla.7146:

Here’s something to think about. Has anything been said as to whether or not there wasn’t going to be another means of getting these sprockets in game?

I know that you can get them through normal game play now, and I know that method is temporary currently. But I haven’t heard them say there won’t be another means of getting these items after the temporary means is removed.

If there was a means in-game of getting these, would this whole argument have even been posted?

When you complete the current Origins of Madness meta, you get a home instance sprocket node to mine daily. It is available in game through normal game play.

And, yes, regardless of that fact, this thread has still been made. And goes on and on…

What about a new player who comes in after the Meta is closed and after the pick has been pulled off the gem store?

New players are at a disadvantage anytime an item is introduced and then it becomes limited in supply on the TP. It creates a large disparity in what old players have versus what new players have. However, this will always be the case. This is the same situation with candy corn, quartz crystals, winter items, etc.

Considering the actual precendence we have with unlimited gathering tools becoming available again, I would guess this isn’t the only time it will be available for purchase.

DarcShriek.5829:

How is this pay to win, while the ores aren’t?

When the ores came out, I said we were dangerously close to pay-to-win. And now we’re pretty much there.

Trashman.8596:

brittitude.1983:

TChalla.7146:

Here’s something to think about. Has anything been said as to whether or not there wasn’t going to be another means of getting these sprockets in game?

I know that you can get them through normal game play now, and I know that method is temporary currently. But I haven’t heard them say there won’t be another means of getting these items after the temporary means is removed.

If there was a means in-game of getting these, would this whole argument have even been posted?

When you complete the current Origins of Madness meta, you get a home instance sprocket node to mine daily. It is available in game through normal game play.

And, yes, regardless of that fact, this thread has still been made. And goes on and on…

The argument would be that you can only mine from the node once a day. With the pick you still have a chance with every node to get sprockets . Oh and here Flame Shield Godspeed.

With my sprocket node, I have a chance to get multiple sprockets as well, but I have no doubt that there will be more supply for one person from the pick than for home nodes. I don’t have any clue as to whether more supply overall will be from the home nodes versus the mining picks.

I’m not sure how it pertains to the argument though. Tchalla asked about it continuing to be available after the temp content is gone and regardless of amount, it is still available.

It would be HILARIOUS if sprockets turned out to be necessary in precursor crafting — even if for just one precursor.

One of the things that I love of gw2 is that the gem store don’t have items that give a special advantage in the game, so is a no p2w. And for that I don’t like this item is a limited item, so new players won’t be able to get it. And is very unfair that any farming node give a mat that should be rare. Please ANET remove that extra feature.

Ken DeBoer.9268:

I’m calling the next item will be a sickle that has a 20% chance at pristine spores. Think if that item came out instead of the mining pick, people would immediately be up in arms. Don’t downplay it because sprockets aren’t worth much. Sure you can still get spores in game now, but check the price, 3s a piece. If every 5 herbs brought you an extra 3s, would you be cheesed then?

I think you might be right in regards to the sickle, in which case, yes, that would be a cause for this thread since there isn’t, currently, an in game method of getting the spores after the temp content is gone, unless they will still be in Kessex hills. Not sure I would mind though since constant supply will keep the cost lower than without it. And there aren’t many things that use the spores anyway, especially with the tri-color key chests gone.

pswendel.8179:

brittitude.1983:

TChalla.7146:

Here’s something to think about. Has anything been said as to whether or not there wasn’t going to be another means of getting these sprockets in game?

I know that you can get them through normal game play now, and I know that method is temporary currently. But I haven’t heard them say there won’t be another means of getting these items after the temporary means is removed.

If there was a means in-game of getting these, would this whole argument have even been posted?

When you complete the current Origins of Madness meta, you get a home instance sprocket node to mine daily. It is available in game through normal game play.

And, yes, regardless of that fact, this thread has still been made. And goes on and on…

What about a new player who comes in after the Meta is closed and after the pick has been pulled off the gem store?

If it is taken down. The argument has been made for both sides, so all you can honestly do is wait for a response.

brittitude.1983:

Ken DeBoer.9268:

I’m calling the next item will be a sickle that has a 20% chance at pristine spores. Think if that item came out instead of the mining pick, people would immediately be up in arms. Don’t downplay it because sprockets aren’t worth much. Sure you can still get spores in game now, but check the price, 3s a piece. If every 5 herbs brought you an extra 3s, would you be cheesed then?

I think you might be right in regards to the sickle, in which case, yes, that would be a cause for this thread since there isn’t, currently, an in game method of getting the spores after the temp content is gone, unless they will still be in Kessex hills. Not sure I would mind though since constant supply will keep the cost lower than without it. And there aren’t many things that use the spores anyway, especially with the tri-color key chests gone.

You can still harvest spores. I believe it was in Kessex Hill where I encountered some since the new patch.

Please someone tell me that the new pick is Ascended, it would be too hilarious.

BTW i disagree with this gemstore item, unless:
-Every account gets a chance for a sprocket source (even after Origin of Madness)
-Reasonable priced consumable pick with the same effect get released (in game currency)
- It suffer the flamekissed syndrome and become a “normal” infinite pick.

Lord Kuru.3685:

DarcShriek.5829:

How is this pay to win, while the ores aren’t?

When the ores came out, I said we were dangerously close to pay-to-win. And now we’re pretty much there.

How is the ability to mine one copper node, one silver node, and one gold node daily, pay to win? If that is winning, how many times are we allowed to win? Because I have won a lot and without paying cash to do it…

DarcShriek.5829:

How is this pay to win, while the ores aren’t?

In some sense this made people who bought old unlimited tools very mad, so there you go. Ore is an addition, anyone can buy them if they want the extra, it doesn’t replace anything.

brittitude.1983:

This was part of my point. There isn’t a reason to think that this item will cause wealth disparity. There isn’t a reason to think items offered in the future will either. It is rather a baseless speculation.

My point is two-fold.
a) This is not about “money” but the general direction of acquiring in-game materials
b) I wondered about how the materials for living story content will be acquired going forward and I do not agree with this particular solution.

This is also part of my point. No one is complaining about the nodes creating disparity with current players and future players or being able to become rich off these nodes due to limited supply. The watchwork sprocket is a node available through play. I don’t see how it is something only available through the TP.

Also, while everyone disagrees on what it means to win, I think everyone agrees that the pay part is with real-world money, not in game gold. So while it is expensive using the gold to gem conversion, just playing the game gets you gold.

Again, it’s (for me) the same point really, how is it acquired, not the quantity and not the “value”.

I appreciate your arguments and I was responding a little out of frustration with those that think this item is cause for concern and creating a precedence when there are other items that can be considered more pay to win.

However, the arguments that most of them items on my list can be picked up in the game through other means doesn’t contradict my point, since the home node harvesting and purchase from the TP allow the sprockets to be available to players by playing the game.

Let’s let the list aside – why not simply adding a chance for sprockets to drop from any node regardless of which tool is used … if this is really only about giving people an option to acquire the item?

I realize that the thread is not specifically with sprockets, but what else might happen. Your examples made me laugh, but I realize that some people might think this could happen and is why so many people see it as pay to win, and yet, I still don’t, regardless of the definition of winning. There are so many, and much faster and easier ways, of making gold than trying to harvest with a chance at gaining that item and resulting gold.

(…) snip because it’s not about the value

So if lodestones and silver doubloons entered the market through this method, you would be upset? (…) snip for lenght

Yes I would be upset. Realize the difference and the fine line. Technically yes, this game was “p2w” from the start because of the gem to gold conversion. However, the materials in question are not generated from someone who bought them from the store. They came through playing and are then traded. See how beautifully this is constructed, we are entering a half zone … the material is not bought directly, but only through playing with the item from the store you are acquiring it.

Which is of course also part of the next point.

I don’t disagree with your point here. However, as long as they are still available by playing the game, and it isn’t exclusively a gem store item, then I would not see it as a pay to win item. It is the same as buying gems with cash, converting it to gold, and then buying a stock of silk bolts from the TP today. I fail to see the difference.

So to continue this thought, where is the line then? Based on what? Would “we” complain if the pick would be available in-game for 10 silver? What if the pick only costs 100 gems? What if all the tools would have been like this from the start? Did people already complain until they realized that “heh, that guy has to mine 5mil nodes for this to become cheaper than with in-game tools”?

Yes, and this is the only downside I see to the pick currently.

But why? Is it because of the price point? (see above) Maybe in a year we’ll be able to buy a new tool for 2000 gems that will combine all the benefits of previously released tools?

I’m not sure why you said this. I think we should have more home nodes. I would like to see a pristine spore node actually.

The point here was how we will get them, not that the nodes themselves exist.

At the end of the day I’m not here to convince other players of my point of view. I like to present it and I appreciate reading different opinions. I think I said my part here and I am not trying to spread fear or discredit Anet. I also don’t usually jump into p2w threads, but in this case I believe a very fine line is being crossed and we should ask ourselves how it will change the game, our perception of the game and the genre in general.

As to the “win” part in pay-to-win, I’m finding Zealot’s/Keeper’s armor to be much better for my build than Berserker (doubly so when crit chance becomes ferocity).

The difference between having a tool that generates sprockets and one that doesn’t has direct in-combat gameplay consequences for me.

Anet wants shekels. I dunno whats worst, idiots that bought multiple perma tools encouraging this or them actually releasing this. Hey remember that time they banned their entire WvW user base.

Unfortunately this will NOT get revised the mass outcry of people demanding refunds because they bought it expecting the sprockets would be insane.

Hopefully Anet chalks this up to a fluke and doesn’t do it again.

It looks like I’m in the minority here, but I don’t see this as pay to win, and I’ll explain why.

The pick gives you extra sprockets, which do not make you stronger in any way, it’s just a crafting material that you can trade for Gold. Gold in this game is largely for cosmetics/convenience itself, and does not give you a power advantage over others. You could argue this isn’t true anymore because of ascended gear, but that’s a problem with ascended crafting and not the pick.
In fact, people buying these picks with their money will help keep the sprocket prices lower for everybody else.

And if you do consider getting extra gold to be pay to win, the Gem system is already inherently pay to win. After all, people have been buying Gems and selling them for Gold since day 1, and it’s not uncommon to hear about people buying enough Gold to buy legendaries.

Zinrae.3769:

The pick gives you extra sprockets, which do not make you stronger in any way…

Wrong. It gives me gear options – fairly advantageous gear options at that – without bowing before the almighty Trading Post.

I just bought 3,000 sprockets to build a suit of armor. The tool could make a significant difference in how many I have to buy to gear my next character or advance to Asceneded gear on that one. I’ll get some from my personal node, but the rest is cutting into coin that could have been going to other things. Buying flame rams maybe, or making sure I’m stocked up on pies.

It’s too bad there are no other threads discussing this issue.

First of all, I bought this.

Yes, I did. You see, I don’t (or rather, didn’t) see Sprockets as anything useful. They were just junk to sell for a few coppers. As far as I was concerned, it was like getting a few extra “ruined ore” from using the thing. Nothing important, I was more interested in just another unlimited tool and what effect it had in use. (By the way, I do like the effect when you use it.)

Now I’m seeing some potential problems with it. Or, rather, with the tools that may come after it. But I’ve used it, so …

First of all, it’s a chance per strike, not per node. I’ve gotten two sprockets off of two strikes on the same node already.

Second, it’s NOT replacing gems. I’ve gotten sprockets AND gems off of one node already.

So, there’s that. Now you know how it works in those respects.

Finally: I expect to see the Queen’s Jubilee show up again each and every year. By the time it rolls around, Scarlet’s storyline will be done, and I’m sure the Watchknights will be “safe” to use in the arena again. There’s no good reason for them to NOT do that festival every year, all the basic assets are there already. I think they saw it as I did, the sprockets being a small, low value thing like ruined ore would be.

If they do change it, I hope they change it so that it DOES give ruined ore, or some other little item that’s only good to sell to vendors at a small price. “Pretty stone”, or something, and then do the same with whatever sickle and axe come after it. Maybe make the items usable in crafts, to make low level items of no value or stats (Pretty Stone Necklace, 0 stats, for example) if they want people to be able to sell them to each other.

Anyway… good luck!

I don’t think attempting to label this as “Pay to Win” or not is a helpful exercise, because that term is not very specific, and people can disagree on what it means to “win.” Instead, let’s stick to the facts:

1) This is a best-in-slot item. Its functionality is superior to all other items, gem store or otherwise, that can be equipped in that slot.
2) It is available exclusively through the gem store.

As I’ve said before, I do not believe it is appropriate for ANY best-in-slot item to be gem store exclusive. Feel free to disagree, but let’s at least be on the same page about what we’re discussing – a best-in-slot gem store exclusive item.

Nike.2631:

Zinrae.3769:

The pick gives you extra sprockets, which do not make you stronger in any way…

Wrong. It gives me gear options – fairly advantageous gear options at that – without bowing before the almighty Trading Post.

I just bought 3,000 sprockets to build a suit of armor. The tool could make a significant difference in how many I have to buy to gear my next character or advance to Asceneded gear on that one. I’ll get some from my personal node, but the rest is cutting into coin that could have been going to other things. Buying flame rams maybe, or making sure I’m stocked up on pies.

So as I was saying, the only advantage there is gold. If you take that 1000 gems and convert it to gold (61.1g currently), you can instead buy 15,275 sprockets at 40c. Remember, because people have these picks, the price of the sprockets will stay lower so that it is also cheaper for you to buy your 3,000 sprockets.

Palador.2170:

First of all, I bought this.

Yes, I did. You see, I don’t (or rather, didn’t) see Sprockets as anything useful. They were just junk to sell for a few coppers. As far as I was concerned, it was like getting a few extra “ruined ore” from using the thing. Nothing important, I was more interested in just another unlimited tool and what effect it had in use. (By the way, I do like the effect when you use it.)

Now I’m seeing some potential problems with it. Or, rather, with the tools that may come after it. But I’ve used it, so …

First of all, it’s a chance per strike, not per node. I’ve gotten two sprockets off of two strikes on the same node already.

Second, it’s NOT replacing gems. I’ve gotten sprockets AND gems off of one node already.

So, there’s that. Now you know how it works in those respects.

Finally: I expect to see the Queen’s Jubilee show up again each and every year. By the time it rolls around, Scarlet’s storyline will be done, and I’m sure the Watchknights will be “safe” to use in the arena again. There’s no good reason for them to NOT do that festival every year, all the basic assets are there already. I think they saw it as I did, the sprockets being a small, low value thing like ruined ore would be.

If they do change it, I hope they change it so that it DOES give ruined ore, or some other little item that’s only good to sell to vendors at a small price. “Pretty stone”, or something, and then do the same with whatever sickle and axe come after it. Maybe make the items usable in crafts, to make low level items of no value or stats (Pretty Stone Necklace, 0 stats, for example) if they want people to be able to sell them to each other.

Anyway… good luck!

So you don’t mind if they will take that 20% away and make like old gathering tools?