Guild Wars 2

Kaiyanwan.8521:

Peetee.9406:

November 15th 2012 – The day the gear treadmill began.
January 28th 2014 – The day pay-to-win began.

ANet seems desperate, why such a move? This is obviously a door opener for more items to come. What is next? A vip subscribtion?

I’m calling the next item will be a sickle that has a 20% chance at pristine spores. Think if that item came out instead of the mining pick, people would immediately be up in arms. Don’t downplay it because sprockets aren’t worth much. Sure you can still get spores in game now, but check the price, 3s a piece. If every 5 herbs brought you an extra 3s, would you be cheesed then?

Would everybody be okay with this if they made an in game pick purchasable by a merchant that gave the same bonus with 25 charges?

Or is this about previous picks?

I guess many in this thread don’t understand the word “precedent”.

Next thing you know we are going to have cash shop weapons that specifically add a huge chance to drop precursors. But it won’t matter, because you can convert gold to gems! You know how stupid that sounds?

The point a few are strumming home and that I agree with is that it doesn’t matter what the 20% is for, it could be anything and it shouldn’t be there.

pswendel.8179:

Would everybody be okay with this if they made an in game pick purchasable by a merchant that gave the same bonus with 25 charges?

Or is this about previous picks?

I would be ok with a merchant-bought pick that would have at least 50 charges that has the same bonus. 25 would be evil but I could accept it.
But I acknowledge that there also is the problem with the previous picks as well. It would be a bit unfair to them. I can live with that though, even though I have one myself.

But every mechanic that can give you advantage in acquiring wealth, damaging stuff, running faster (in combat at least), should have an ingame equivalent. Thus making the gem store variant only a convenience and not the only way.

And it should be permanent and not time-limited to give everyone the same chance of acquiring it regardless of when they start playing the game.

I want a salvage-o-matic that has a 100% chance of recovering ectoplasm

I fully agree this new item is a pay to win item. I understand its just “Sprockets” but what happens when next time its something like Charged Quartz Crystals? There is also the fact this item cost real money and gives players a advantage over none paying players (Gem’s even gold bought gem’s still cost real money).

At this point the game is becoming less and less desirable to continue to sink time into. Maybe its simply the fact I personally don’t like the direction the story has gone in combined with poor gem store decisions (Flaming T3 Gemstore Reskin).

SRG.3607:

Real problem is that it is “unfair” for people having bought previous items at the same price, not knowing a better version would be available weeks later.

That the same as to say its unfair to pay for a skin and 6 months later there is a new skin that looks better.

And also .. the tools already were upped in price from 800 to 1000, and since i have 20 tools for 8 characters till now i really don’t care much if they are accountbound or soulbound.

Yea, I’ll second this…

The gemstore hasn’t been doing so well lately:
– No new music instruments in a long time (You’re missing a gold mine by not making a guitar or drums)
– Flametouched armor is reskins of existing armor and one of those is getting recalled.
– New “masks” are simple monotone facial tattoos selling for almost as much as a full set of armor.
– No new types of armors
– No new town clothes in a while and no non-event related town clothes in a long, long time.(is ANet abandoning the town clothes concept?)

I want to spend gems on the store since I love supporting this game…but there hasn’t been anything really worthwhile to spend them on and stuff like this really discourages me from supporting the gem store.

Zoid.2568:

I think it’s fine. Nothing game breaking. Most people don’t care about harvesting anyway and that would make the Living Story P2W as well. People that weren’t participating in the past Living Story haven’t got the nodes for their home instance and they have no way to get it.

Everyone can convert gold into gems, so it’s not really P2W in any sense.

You can actually go into someone else’s home instance and mine it there if they have it even if you don’t. I doubt there are people doing this though …

While I won’t comment on whether or not I think this is P2W because definitions are different amongst our great minds, do people really feel entitled to a refund for their previous purchases and if so why?

I bought a TV one time that was HD and large…now they have new ones that are thinner with a better picture for cheaper than what I paid originally for my TV in the past but I don’t feel entitled for a refund or an updated TV. I bought the original iPhone for $400 bucks but then a few months later, a new version came out for $200 and it had 3g and more features. Should I have been entitled to a full refund or an upgraded version for free?

Using the examples, why do so many people feel they deserve a refund or an update to their existing pick? Please no trolling or flaming, I am just curious on the communities thought on that.

Nodo.6907:

While I won’t comment on whether or not I think this is P2W, do people really feel entitled to a refund for their previous purchases and if so why?

I bought a TV one time that was HD and large…now they have new ones that are thinner with a better picture for cheaper than what I paid originally for my TV in the past but I don’t feel entitled for a refund or an updated TV. I bought the original iPhone for $400 bucks but then soon after they released a new version for $200 and it had 3g and more features so should I be entitled for a full refund or an upgraded version for free?

Using the examples, why do so many people feel they deserve a refund or an update to their existing pick? Please no trolling or flaming, I am just curious on the communities thought on that.

There is no difference between your example and what is going on with the picks. I’d love to see the look on a Best Buy employee’s face if someone went into the store and demanded that their TV be upgraded because a newer one came out a month after they bought it.

Dahkeus.8243:

- No new town clothes in a while and no non-event related town clothes in a long, long time.(is ANet abandoning the town clothes concept?)

That was a lousy concept to begin with unless you are expecting people to spend most of their time standing around doing nothing.

I would guess most people spend their time doing things that would get them into a combat situation rendering the town cloths useless. You can set a keybind for enabling town cloths to re-enable them each time but that is going to get tedious quickly.

TChalla.7146:

Nodo.6907:

While I won’t comment on whether or not I think this is P2W, do people really feel entitled to a refund for their previous purchases and if so why?

I bought a TV one time that was HD and large…now they have new ones that are thinner with a better picture for cheaper than what I paid originally for my TV in the past but I don’t feel entitled for a refund or an updated TV. I bought the original iPhone for $400 bucks but then soon after they released a new version for $200 and it had 3g and more features so should I be entitled for a full refund or an upgraded version for free?

Using the examples, why do so many people feel they deserve a refund or an update to their existing pick? Please no trolling or flaming, I am just curious on the communities thought on that.

There is no difference between your example and what is going on with the picks. I’d love to see the look on a Best Buy employee’s face if someone went into the store and demanded that their TV be upgraded because a newer one came out a month after they bought it.

90 day return policy. I upgraded with EVGA With Their Most Recent Release Of Cards With This Very concept, But It Only Applies To Situations Where You Could have waited a small time to get the newest…

Sorry for the caps. On my phone at work.

This simply invalidates the previous infinate mining purchases – by providing a better product.
IMHO – getting tired of the money-grabbing nature of GW2. I’m all for pay-for-convenience, but adding ‘new improved versions’ of old paid-for tools while the old tools are soul-bound (even if they were account-bound they could be moved to a new character …) – this screams of P2W.

DVD producers do this all the time with their special editions, and special special editions to get people to waste their money on the same product twice.

At the very least, the older tools should get upgraded to a chance to mine other materials / or the older picks/tools should be made account-bound (not soul-bound)

DaceManna.3018:

This simply invalidates the previous infinate mining purchases – by providing a better product.
IMHO – getting tired of the money-grabbing nature of GW2. I’m all for pay-for-convenience, but adding ‘new improved versions’ of old paid-for tools while the old tools are soul-bound (even if they were account-bound they could be moved to a new character …) – this screams of P2W.

DVD producers do this all the time with their special editions, and special special editions to get people to waste their money on the same product twice.

At the very least, the older tools should get upgraded to a chance to mine other materials / or the older picks/tools should be made account-bound (not soul-bound)

“Soulbound infinite gathering tools can be exchanged for account-bound versions through the Black Lion Weapons Specialists. These NPCs can be found near the Black Lion Traders in every city that hosts a Trading Post. For example, in Lion’s Arch the Black Lion Weapons Specialists are located on the second floor and can be reached by taking either stairway adjacent to the Black Lion Traders. Note: Be sure to un-equip any infinite gathering tools before speaking to a Black Lion Weapons Specialist because these items cannot be exchanged if they are equipped.”

2 months ago.

TChalla.7146:

Nodo.6907:

While I won’t comment on whether or not I think this is P2W, do people really feel entitled to a refund for their previous purchases and if so why?

I bought a TV one time that was HD and large…now they have new ones that are thinner with a better picture for cheaper than what I paid originally for my TV in the past but I don’t feel entitled for a refund or an updated TV. I bought the original iPhone for $400 bucks but then soon after they released a new version for $200 and it had 3g and more features so should I be entitled for a full refund or an upgraded version for free?

Using the examples, why do so many people feel they deserve a refund or an update to their existing pick? Please no trolling or flaming, I am just curious on the communities thought on that.

There is no difference between your example and what is going on with the picks. I’d love to see the look on a Best Buy employee’s face if someone went into the store and demanded that their TV be upgraded because a newer one came out a month after they bought it.

A month, no, but 15 days and they would have to by the law of the state I live in

This is just a statement for giggles mostly, I do not actually believe anyone is entitled to a refund of course :p

They started the P2W trend with the ore pack for the personal instance, though most would disagree with me on that.

And yes, this is just blatant P2W and seriously unfair to those of us that bought the unlimited gathering tools before this was introduced.

Frankly I’m surprised we haven’t seen an infinite harvesting sickle that has a chance at gathering toxic spore samples.

The argument seems to be that somehow buying this pick will create an undue advantage to the players that have it by allowing them to have a chance at getting something that is sellable on the TP that everyone completing the meta also has through the home instance mode, but at a rate so excessively high that it will create wealth disparity. Thus the extra wealth is now shown as pay to win because, of course, without excess gold, PvE is impossible to win…what?

What about the home nodes that are/were only available for those completing the meta? Those are okay because they provide limited supply items only because they were not a gem store buy?

Basically, this is providing players who won’t/can’t/missed the meta for the watchwork sprockets node another option to get them that isn’t based on the TP.

The only precedent, that I see, is allowing more supply on limited items to be available in the TP for current and future players. If this upsets flippers and speculators that like to hoard and depend on demand outpacing supply to make money, then I can only hope that this happens more often in the future. And maybe with past items too. Because yes, I would love it if the molten mining pick was converted to provide a random chance on azurite shards and orbs.

While I agree that pay to win is horrible, I do not think that this is setting or hinting at a precedence for a pay to win model. If this causes you to be worried, what about these items:
1. Magic find booster.
2. Wxp booster.
3. Karma booster.
4. Gathering booster.
5. Experience booster.
6. Black lion salvage kit.
7. Black lion chest keys.
8. Revive orb.

And yes, because there is a gold to gem conversion this should be an acceptable gem store offering.

Where this gets real interesting… let’s say you have say 3 molten picks, you can get your gems back on 2 of them. In my case, I have 8×3 of such items. That means I could turn 21 of them back into gems and buy the newer items…

brittitude.1983:

The argument seems to be that somehow buying this pick will create an undue advantage to the players that have it by allowing them to have a chance at getting something that is sellable on the TP that everyone completing the meta also has through the home instance mode, but at a rate so excessively high that it will create wealth disparity. Thus the extra wealth is now shown as pay to win because, of course, without excess gold, PvE is impossible to win…what?

What about the home nodes that are/were only available for those completing the meta? Those are okay because they provide limited supply items only because they were not a gem store buy?

Basically, this is providing players who won’t/can’t/missed the meta for the watchwork sprockets node another option to get them that isn’t based on the TP.

The only precedent, that I see, is allowing more supply on limited items to be available in the TP for current and future players. If this upsets flippers and speculators that like to hoard and depend on demand outpacing supply to make money, then I can only hope that this happens more often in the future. And maybe with past items too. Because yes, I would love it if the molten mining pick was converted to provide a random chance on azurite shards and orbs.

While I agree that pay to win is horrible, I do not think that this is setting or hinting at a precedence for a pay to win model. If this causes you to be worried, what about these items:
1. Magic find booster.
2. Wxp booster.
3. Karma booster.
4. Gathering booster.
5. Experience booster.
6. Black lion salvage kit.
7. Black lion chest keys.
8. Revive orb.

And yes, because there is a gold to gem conversion this should be an acceptable gem store offering.

The only problem with this statement is that the amount of time to gain gold in game has not increased with the inflation of gem to gold exchanges. It’s much more efficient to buy gems and convert them to gold now than at release, and gold generation through playing the game has not kept up with the pace of inflation.

The constant inflation, on top of lack of updates to in game gold/currency rewards, makes the game slowly creep further and further towards having to pay money to “win” , whatever your definition of win may be, as the majority of the game is centered around gold at the moment in time.

Problem is people already bought them, so they cannot simply remove the feature, otherwise they have to deal with loads of refund requests.
So I’m thinking this will be the new trend, i.e. new gathering tools have bonus of getting new LS crafting materials, from now on. Previous bought item.. um.. you got your benefit already for the past x months now time to move on and buy a new one.

So .. if they sell you something like the following :

Yo pay 80 gold, and if you play at least 1000 hours for the next year then you
will get 81 gold, would you call that P2W ?

Because that is more or less what you have if you buy such a pick just for “winning”.

Or you can pay 10 bucks and buy 80 gold for the gems, or you can buy a pick, work 1000 hours with that pick just to have maybe made 81 gold after all that time.

Maybe they can also put in apick that can be purchased from vendors for a bit more than ori picks that have the ability to mine all nodes + have a chance of giving sprockets.

Aeonblade.8709:

Ayrilana.1396:

Some people either need to look up the definition for what pay to win is since this clearly is not. People are either misinformed or just trolling and using this as another opportunity to attack the game and/or Anet.

There is no concrete definition of P2W. It varies from person to person. This has been discussed to death on this forum, and P2W for one person is not P2W to another. Being hostile and accusing people of trolling for stating their opinion just makes you look silly and reinforces other’s points.

There is a clear definition. It’s any item that can be purchased with real money that is not available to players elsewhere that provides a distinct advantage over other players.

Since they didn’t let people know that these things were coming, and they just threw them into the game and let people start buying these things already, they have really put themselves in a hole. It means they can’t retract the item or its capabilities. The way I see it, the only way for them to salvage this situation is to add the chance for mining additional things on to all the other existing infinite mining picks and promise not to do such silly things again.

Aeonblade.8709:

TChalla.7146:

Nodo.6907:

While I won’t comment on whether or not I think this is P2W, do people really feel entitled to a refund for their previous purchases and if so why?

I bought a TV one time that was HD and large…now they have new ones that are thinner with a better picture for cheaper than what I paid originally for my TV in the past but I don’t feel entitled for a refund or an updated TV. I bought the original iPhone for $400 bucks but then soon after they released a new version for $200 and it had 3g and more features so should I be entitled for a full refund or an upgraded version for free?

Using the examples, why do so many people feel they deserve a refund or an update to their existing pick? Please no trolling or flaming, I am just curious on the communities thought on that.

There is no difference between your example and what is going on with the picks. I’d love to see the look on a Best Buy employee’s face if someone went into the store and demanded that their TV be upgraded because a newer one came out a month after they bought it.

A month, no, but 15 days and they would have to by the law of the state I live in

This is just a statement for giggles mostly, I do not actually believe anyone is entitled to a refund of course :p

Well, again I was just curious what people thought about it. You bring up a nice counter argument as does another poster responding to my post up above. My examples weren’t the best but the ones that popped into my head when reading all of this.

As someone posted above me, they had a 90 day return policy using my example. I don’t recall, because I don’t follow the gem store too close, but when was the last mining pick released? If it was recent then an argument is to be somewhat had for those who recently purchased theirs but if it was a while back then it is what it is.

Anyways, I don’t want to get too far out there and there are a lot of good points in this thread for people to comment on so I will just respectfully bow out I’m sure there will be plenty of posts to follow demanding refunds or upgrades to their existing picks and my post was mostly geared towards those thinking they deserve one.

Thanks for those who responded, your answers were great!

henry.1420:

Problem is people already bought them, so they cannot simply remove the feature, otherwise they have to deal with loads of refund requests.
So I’m thinking this will be the new trend, i.e. new gathering tools have bonus of getting new LS crafting materials, from now on. Previous bought item.. um.. you got your benefit already for the past x months now time to move on and buy a new one.

They discontinued Flamekissed armor.
They can do the same for this.

Ayrilana.1396:

Aeonblade.8709:

Ayrilana.1396:

Some people either need to look up the definition for what pay to win is since this clearly is not. People are either misinformed or just trolling and using this as another opportunity to attack the game and/or Anet.

There is no concrete definition of P2W. It varies from person to person. This has been discussed to death on this forum, and P2W for one person is not P2W to another. Being hostile and accusing people of trolling for stating their opinion just makes you look silly and reinforces other’s points.

There is a clear definition. It’s any item that can be purchased with real money that is not available to players elsewhere that provides a distinct advantage over other players.

There is no definition for what every single person considers P2W because winning is different based off of each person. Please read the rest of the thread before posting in the future to save us all some time. Thanks!

While i don’t agree with the bonus this item provides over the older infinite tools, I bought one because I want infinite tools and I missed the kitten ed one day sale of the triple pack.

I for one would be more than happy to not get sprockets, especially as i have a node for those in my home instance should i ever feel daring enough to craft power precision healing power gear….

Beldin.5498:

So .. if they sell you something like the following :

Yo pay 80 gold, and if you play at least 1000 hours for the next year then you
will get 81 gold, would you call that P2W ?

Because that is more or less what you have if you buy such a pick just for “winning”.

Or you can pay 10 bucks and buy 80 gold for the gems, or you can buy a pick, work 1000 hours with that pick just to have maybe made 81 gold after all that time.

And if the pick had, say, 20% chance to recover extra Orichalcum ore every time you mine any node, would you still retain your opinion on it?

The thing it, it doesn’t matter if it’s extra Sprockets/Ori/Precursors or whatever. They just gave the finger to everyone that bought the now inferior version and are basically saying “You want the better one? Fork over the sheckels again.”

TChalla.7146:

Nodo.6907:

While I won’t comment on whether or not I think this is P2W, do people really feel entitled to a refund for their previous purchases and if so why?

I bought a TV one time that was HD and large…now they have new ones that are thinner with a better picture for cheaper than what I paid originally for my TV in the past but I don’t feel entitled for a refund or an updated TV. I bought the original iPhone for $400 bucks but then soon after they released a new version for $200 and it had 3g and more features so should I be entitled for a full refund or an upgraded version for free?

Using the examples, why do so many people feel they deserve a refund or an update to their existing pick? Please no trolling or flaming, I am just curious on the communities thought on that.

There is no difference between your example and what is going on with the picks. I’d love to see the look on a Best Buy employee’s face if someone went into the store and demanded that their TV be upgraded because a newer one came out a month after they bought it.

The problem with your analogy is TVs are not infinite use. They have Planned Obsolescence. You know that the TV you buy is built to fail otherwise warranties would not have much value. You know that you will have to replace it some day.

These picks were bought with the understanding that they were the Best in Slot(Orichalcum) AND Infinite use and therefore we would never need to replace them again.

Now we have a new pick that makes our previously purchased pick obsolete. This is the kind of Vertical Progression that so many people expressed negative reactions to in that particular CDI.

BTW I only purchased the Bone Pick 2 months ago. If I am going to have to replace an infinite harvesting tool every 2 months… I call Shenanigans!

I support this thread, this new watchwork pick is to much of a P2W item. If this new pick isn’t nerfed to be just a convenience item like the other ones I will no longer be supporting the gem store.

Also I do not like games that do the whole P2W thing, if this is the route Anet is going perhaps it is time for me to find a new game.

Aeonblade.8709:

Ayrilana.1396:

Aeonblade.8709:

Ayrilana.1396:

Some people either need to look up the definition for what pay to win is since this clearly is not. People are either misinformed or just trolling and using this as another opportunity to attack the game and/or Anet.

There is no concrete definition of P2W. It varies from person to person. This has been discussed to death on this forum, and P2W for one person is not P2W to another. Being hostile and accusing people of trolling for stating their opinion just makes you look silly and reinforces other’s points.

There is a clear definition. It’s any item that can be purchased with real money that is not available to players elsewhere that provides a distinct advantage over other players.

There is no definition for what every single person considers P2W because winning is different based off of each person. Please read the rest of the thread before posting in the future to save us all some time. Thanks!

This goes back to what I said before about people creating a straw man argument by redefining ‘pay to win’ to mean something completely different than the original definition. You’re not allowed to change the definition of “win” in order to win your argument.

Hot Quag this is nasty. Only way to go now is to provide additional procs for all past and future unlimited gathering tools. Will continue bumping this thread until there’s a response.

Aeonblade.8709:

Ayrilana.1396:

Aeonblade.8709:

Ayrilana.1396:

Some people either need to look up the definition for what pay to win is since this clearly is not. People are either misinformed or just trolling and using this as another opportunity to attack the game and/or Anet.

There is no concrete definition of P2W. It varies from person to person. This has been discussed to death on this forum, and P2W for one person is not P2W to another. Being hostile and accusing people of trolling for stating their opinion just makes you look silly and reinforces other’s points.

There is a clear definition. It’s any item that can be purchased with real money that is not available to players elsewhere that provides a distinct advantage over other players.

There is no definition for what every single person considers P2W because winning is different based off of each person. Please read the rest of the thread before posting in the future to save us all some time. Thanks!

I have been reading this thread since it was created. You can twist the definition however you like but you can’t change it. There is no way anything can be defined if its solely based on peoples opinions. That defeats the purpose of a definition. Just look at other games that are actually play to win.

There is a clear definition of play to win. People can misapply the definition based off games where the term originated. I highly suggest you read up on the history of that phrase.

Ayrilana.1396:

Aeonblade.8709:

Ayrilana.1396:

Aeonblade.8709:

Ayrilana.1396:

Some people either need to look up the definition for what pay to win is since this clearly is not. People are either misinformed or just trolling and using this as another opportunity to attack the game and/or Anet.

There is no concrete definition of P2W. It varies from person to person. This has been discussed to death on this forum, and P2W for one person is not P2W to another. Being hostile and accusing people of trolling for stating their opinion just makes you look silly and reinforces other’s points.

There is a clear definition. It’s any item that can be purchased with real money that is not available to players elsewhere that provides a distinct advantage over other players.

There is no definition for what every single person considers P2W because winning is different based off of each person. Please read the rest of the thread before posting in the future to save us all some time. Thanks!

I have been reading this thread since it was created. You can twist the definition however you like but you can’t change it. There is no way anything can be defined if its solely based on peoples opinions. That defeats the purpose of a definition. Just look at other games that are actually play to win.

There is a clear definition of play to win. People can misapply the definition based off games where the term originated. I highly suggest you read up on the history of that phrase.

No need to read up on it, opinions are opinions and there are people who feel both ways on this. I won’t be roped into this conversation again just because you feel the need to be right. As far as I’m concerned you are just as entitled to your opinion as I am, so be happy with that if you can.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. You’re just changing the original definition to something to make it easier for you to attack. That’s why I said you should read up on the history of the phrase to see it’s original meaning/definition.

Yalora Istairiea.6287:

TChalla.7146:

Nodo.6907:

While I won’t comment on whether or not I think this is P2W, do people really feel entitled to a refund for their previous purchases and if so why?

I bought a TV one time that was HD and large…now they have new ones that are thinner with a better picture for cheaper than what I paid originally for my TV in the past but I don’t feel entitled for a refund or an updated TV. I bought the original iPhone for $400 bucks but then soon after they released a new version for $200 and it had 3g and more features so should I be entitled for a full refund or an upgraded version for free?

Using the examples, why do so many people feel they deserve a refund or an update to their existing pick? Please no trolling or flaming, I am just curious on the communities thought on that.

There is no difference between your example and what is going on with the picks. I’d love to see the look on a Best Buy employee’s face if someone went into the store and demanded that their TV be upgraded because a newer one came out a month after they bought it.

The problem with your analogy is TVs are not infinite use. They have Planned Obsolescence. You know that the TV you buy is built to fail otherwise warranties would not have much value. You know that you will have to replace it some day.

These picks were bought with the understanding that they were the Best in Slot(Orichalcum) AND Infinite use and therefore we would never need to replace them again.

Now we have a new pick that makes our previously purchased pick obsolete. This is the kind of Vertical Progression that so many people expressed negative reactions to in that particular CDI.

BTW I only purchased the Bone Pick 2 months ago. If I am going to have to replace an infinite harvesting tool every 2 months… I call Shenanigans!

Excellent response to my TV analogy. I was hoping my silly example would help me better understand why people are this upset over a new/updated item.

I was not aware that Anet led customers to believe these would always remain BiS, but I think your response sums up what a lot of people are thinking even if they aren’t expressing it well. Are there any threads that point to this statement? I think it would be worth linking in this thread.

That is what I was curious about in respect to this problem within the community. Being a player who has never purchased any of the Infinite Tools, I can’t really express an opinion on this subject or a view, only try and understand why the backlash.

I honestly don’t see why you’d have to replace your tool ever 2 months but we probably have different views on what is important in this game as well.

For the record, I do think this additional perk is unwarranted and not worth putting on the item itself.

Yalora Istairiea.6287:

TChalla.7146:

Nodo.6907:

While I won’t comment on whether or not I think this is P2W, do people really feel entitled to a refund for their previous purchases and if so why?

I bought a TV one time that was HD and large…now they have new ones that are thinner with a better picture for cheaper than what I paid originally for my TV in the past but I don’t feel entitled for a refund or an updated TV. I bought the original iPhone for $400 bucks but then soon after they released a new version for $200 and it had 3g and more features so should I be entitled for a full refund or an upgraded version for free?

Using the examples, why do so many people feel they deserve a refund or an update to their existing pick? Please no trolling or flaming, I am just curious on the communities thought on that.

There is no difference between your example and what is going on with the picks. I’d love to see the look on a Best Buy employee’s face if someone went into the store and demanded that their TV be upgraded because a newer one came out a month after they bought it.

The problem with your analogy is TVs are not infinite use. They have Planned Obsolescence. You know that the TV you buy is built to fail otherwise warranties would not have much value. You know that you will have to replace it some day.

These picks were bought with the understanding that they were the Best in Slot(Orichalcum) AND Infinite use and therefore we would never need to replace them again.

Now we have a new pick that makes our previously purchased pick obsolete. This is the kind of Vertical Progression that so many people expressed negative reactions to in that particular CDI.

BTW I only purchased the Bone Pick 2 months ago. If I am going to have to replace an infinite harvesting tool every 2 months… I call Shenanigans!

Did Anet ever say it would be best in slot? Please point me to where they stated this. If you’re basing this off players’ assumptions, then you’re wrong.

Aeonblade.8709:

Ayrilana.1396:

Aeonblade.8709:

Ayrilana.1396:

Aeonblade.8709:

Ayrilana.1396:

Some people either need to look up the definition for what pay to win is since this clearly is not. People are either misinformed or just trolling and using this as another opportunity to attack the game and/or Anet.

There is no concrete definition of P2W. It varies from person to person. This has been discussed to death on this forum, and P2W for one person is not P2W to another. Being hostile and accusing people of trolling for stating their opinion just makes you look silly and reinforces other’s points.

There is a clear definition. It’s any item that can be purchased with real money that is not available to players elsewhere that provides a distinct advantage over other players.

There is no definition for what every single person considers P2W because winning is different based off of each person. Please read the rest of the thread before posting in the future to save us all some time. Thanks!

I have been reading this thread since it was created. You can twist the definition however you like but you can’t change it. There is no way anything can be defined if its solely based on peoples opinions. That defeats the purpose of a definition. Just look at other games that are actually play to win.

There is a clear definition of play to win. People can misapply the definition based off games where the term originated. I highly suggest you read up on the history of that phrase.

No need to read up on it, opinions are opinions and there are people who feel both ways on this. I won’t be roped into this conversation again just because you feel the need to be right. As far as I’m concerned you are just as entitled to your opinion as I am, so be happy with that if you can.

If you can win in different ways, then buying an advantage to any of them is buy 2 win. Your argument is pointless.
Undefining “win” doesn’t undefine “buy 2 win”, it just makes “buy 2 win” cover more topics.

brittitude.1983:

(…)

The only precedent, that I see, is allowing more supply on limited items to be available in the TP for current and future players. If this upsets flippers and speculators that like to hoard and depend on demand outpacing supply to make money, then I can only hope that this happens more often in the future. And maybe with past items too. Because yes, I would love it if the molten mining pick was converted to provide a random chance on azurite shards and orbs.

While I agree that pay to win is horrible, I do not think that this is setting or hinting at a precedence for a pay to win model. If this causes you to be worried, what about these items:
1. Magic find booster.
2. Wxp booster.
3. Karma booster.
4. Gathering booster.
5. Experience booster.
6. Black lion salvage kit.
7. Black lion chest keys.
8. Revive orb.

And yes, because there is a gold to gem conversion this should be an acceptable gem store offering.

I’m not a flipper or speculator in general. I’m not getting rich with my candy node nor do I expect to with the sprocket node (soon).

I do understand the difference of how items are acquired and point to another item like the new pick. The nodes btw did not cost me anything, they were acquired through play.

Now you can argue that you still acquire the pick through play if you convert your gold – which is the catch, you have to convert your gold – in a sense it was not “free”, it was paid for.

As to your list.

Magic find booster
Temporary item, also available in game through various means, previously a tradeoff for stats on equipment as well, now improved as constant general stat all over your account via luck and achievements.

Wxp booster
Seems correct, I don’t WvW too much though so I don’t know how often you get that through leveling etc. Stat was also recently changed to account – right?

Karma booster
Again available in-game, food, banners, again temporary item. Also added a constant level to your account via achievements.

Gathering booster
Banners, but agreed not to the same extent. Again this is temporary vs. constant when looking at the pick.

Experience booster
Available in game and constant achievement reward.

Black Lion Salvage Kit
Consumable. Drops relatively often, only increase in quality vs offering a chance of something extra.

Keys
Seriously? I park that under lottery, but ok – p2w then.

Revive Orb
Limited use in PvE, more convenience in my eyes.

Realistically I am not interested in sprockets at all. Currently I only see it as an alternative to level some professions a little bit – but needing 500 will limit that (since I won’t buy them on the TP). Maybe I’ll play with some runes further down the road, the only reason why I “wanted” the node from the meta is a certain sense of completion.

I mean the “Silver Doubloon Pick” or “Wand of Lodestones” might sound nice, but it baffles me how this cannot be perceived as p2w AT LEAST in a sense of an added economical pressure.

How about we drop the supply of any of the items even lower to extra ultra rare and then make them available directly in the cash shop? Bundle of silk, 100 gems, pile of silver doubloons, 500 gems …?

Where “should” be the line?

Will I need 5 different picks at some point depending on which kind of extra drop I might want?

How about we don’t get nodes as meta rewards anymore, but only a token. Ten tokens and you can buy the random node pack from the store – oh, of course those special tokens also drop sometimes from the BL chest.

I’m not even trying to be pessimistic.

A dangerous precedent indeed. This item is not merely more convenient, but functionally better than any other of its type. The amount that it is better is variable based on the value of a sprocket, but so long as a sprocket has a non-zero value, it IS better. Is it appropriate for a “best in slot” item to be available only through the gem store? There is no “right” answer to this question. Some people have no problem with that, and others do. Personally, I have a problem with it.

This is P2W, plain and simple. And is making me regret all of my past purchases, which were made in good faith that ANET would not go down this path. Leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. Honestly, I’m unhappy enough that I’d try to get a refund on all of my gem store purchases if I thought it possible. Blech.

Whether it’s “P2W” or not is a semantic red herring.

It’s a very, very bad idea.

Store-only advantages are not just dangerous, but game-breaking.

ArenaNet, please abandon this madness, lest ye be abandoned in kind — and richly deserve it.

TChalla.7146:

Nodo.6907:

While I won’t comment on whether or not I think this is P2W, do people really feel entitled to a refund for their previous purchases and if so why?

I bought a TV one time that was HD and large…now they have new ones that are thinner with a better picture for cheaper than what I paid originally for my TV in the past but I don’t feel entitled for a refund or an updated TV. I bought the original iPhone for $400 bucks but then soon after they released a new version for $200 and it had 3g and more features so should I be entitled for a full refund or an upgraded version for free?

Using the examples, why do so many people feel they deserve a refund or an update to their existing pick? Please no trolling or flaming, I am just curious on the communities thought on that.

There is no difference between your example and what is going on with the picks. I’d love to see the look on a Best Buy employee’s face if someone went into the store and demanded that their TV be upgraded because a newer one came out a month after they bought it.

There is. A new and better TV takes a lot of money to develop. This pick is just a virtual item which probably took less than 1000 USD to make. And they can make better picks ad infinitivum without it becoming more pricy or being limited by physics.

why this pick is bad and I won’t buy it:
in 2 months they’ll release an infinite pick that is equivalent to black lion pick
then 2 months later they’ll release one that has a 20% chance at upgraded material (mine mithril, get ori)
then 2 months later they’ll release one that has a 20% chance of a bonus cloth material of the same tier (mine ori, get 3 ori + 1 gossamer)
then 2 months later they’ll release one that has a 20% chance of a bonus ecto

This item starts pay to win vertical gear progression. I am not going to be paying for gear updates every 2 months
maybe I’d buy one if they release all of them and say ‘no more’, THEN i’ll pick my favorite (probably even top 2 or 3) – it would still be pay to win, but it wouldn’t be gear progression, which I find I simply hate.

Mikuchan.7261:

henry.1420:

Problem is people already bought them, so they cannot simply remove the feature, otherwise they have to deal with loads of refund requests.
So I’m thinking this will be the new trend, i.e. new gathering tools have bonus of getting new LS crafting materials, from now on. Previous bought item.. um.. you got your benefit already for the past x months now time to move on and buy a new one.

They discontinued Flamekissed armor.
They can do the same for this.

Then people who choose to keep the tool are having advantages that even real money cannot buy…

I somehow doubt we’ll even see a response on this.

And so the battle for middle earth thus began

I don’t know what disappoints and saddens me more:

The fact that Anet is blatantly adding items to the Gemstore that give distinct advantages over other players that cannot be acquired by actually playing the game…

Or the fact that there are people in this thread that are actually defending Anet for this decision, and saying it’s okay.

As others have said, this has nothing to do with the fact that this Pick gives sprockets for using it. Read the title, Google the definition of Precedent if you have to, than come back and continue the discussion.

What this is doing is opening the doors, slowly but surely, to Anet adding more Gemstore items that do more than just add convenience to them. How long until we have a permanent salvage kit with a higher rate than any other available salvage kit in game to salvage ectoplasms from items? Or how long until the Gem Store offers the ability to purchase permanent Magic Find boosters? Or how about consumables, permanent or temporary, that allow you to get additional bonus chests from World Bosses a day?

Why stop there though. Why not just cut the middle man all together, and give players the ability to buy Ascended Gear for Gems as well, I mean, what’s stopping people from not saying that’s simply continence, after all.

And hell, if Anet wants, they can simply disable the Gem to Gold Conversion with some PR swing, such as saying it had a negative affect on the in game economy, than start adding all these Gemstore only items, where people now only have one option to acquire them: Pay real world money.

I actually thought Anet was going to turn the direction they were going with the Gemstore around when they took down the Human Tier 3 cultural reskin from the Gemstore, but here we are, with more “Convinence” items in the Gemstore that can’t be gotten any other way.

Remind me again why these items aren’t available in game as well? Why not make it so players could either buy the new Pick Axe, or craft it instead if they didn’t want to farm the gold or gems. Why are all these new skins being shoved into the Gemstore, when last year around this time, we were being offered them in game by actually completing the content given to us.

I mean, compare the Achievement Points we got back in the early LS days, before they added those stupid Reward Chests, to how many we get now from a LS. You’ve gone from 10-15 per achievement, to 1-5, with the actual meta rewards being a lot less impressive than what’s purchasable in the Gemstore.

The TC is right, this is a Precedent towards an even worst direction the game is already going in. Between the lackluster responses to the recent updates, the soon to be fiasco of shoving PvE content into WvW, ruining the experience for both players in the process, and now a possible Gemstore nightmare opening up, GW2 is not going in a good direction right now.

It’s becoming less and less about doomsaying, and more and more about speaking truth: If GW2 continues in the direction it’s going, the game’s going to be a ghost town come this time next year.