Guild Wars 2

Pennry.9215:

You can scream “no other source!” all you want, but you’re lying. My home instance node with copper pick (most return per strike) says so.

Your home instance node gives you sprockets with a copper pick?

Didn’t think so.

Lord Kuru.3685:

Pennry.9215:

You can scream “no other source!” all you want, but you’re lying. My home instance node with copper pick (most return per strike) says so.

Your home instance node gives you sprockets with a copper pick?

Didn’t think so.

Um, I have a sprocket node in my home instance, I use a copper pick on it, I get quite a few more than the three for three strikes per this type of node. So think again.

Pennry.9215:

Lord Kuru.3685:

Pennry.9215:

You can scream “no other source!” all you want, but you’re lying. My home instance node with copper pick (most return per strike) says so.

Your home instance node gives you sprockets with a copper pick?

Didn’t think so.

Um, I have a sprocket node in my home instance, I use a copper pick on it, I get quite a few more than the three for three strikes per this type of node. So think again.

I got nine on my parked baby mesmer

lordkrall.7241:

Invictus.1503:

Not a bug as they are advertising it on their own website. Here is how they describe it: “A recent breakthrough in mining technology has let us make a new infinite mining pick. This self-repairing pick has a chance to add a Watchwork Sprocket to the rewards when used to mine ore veins!”

Ah, I had not seen that.
Since that is the case, I would say this is definitely crossing the line.

kokiman.2364:

Well like I said earlier they are trying to test how far they can get. People complained about the first unlimited pick aswell but later people didn’t care anymore and we got more of them + they got more expensive. Now they are trying to give people another incentive to buy them.

The increase in cost is because they changed them from Soulbound to Account bound though.

shootist.3607:

They hired a former Nexon ‘expert’ for monetization, afaik. Doesn’t this say everything?

They did hire say expert several MONTHS BEFORE the release of the game though. So it is not something new. And if she did all this, one would wonder why she waited over a year with it.

Are you talking about John Smith? How do you know who they are?

Axialbloom.8109:

Are you talking about John Smith? How do you know who they are?

Anyone who hears the Nexon conspiracy theories knows who they’re talking about. It’s not the economist John Smith.

Axialbloom.8109:

lordkrall.7241:

Invictus.1503:

Not a bug as they are advertising it on their own website. Here is how they describe it: “A recent breakthrough in mining technology has let us make a new infinite mining pick. This self-repairing pick has a chance to add a Watchwork Sprocket to the rewards when used to mine ore veins!”

Ah, I had not seen that.
Since that is the case, I would say this is definitely crossing the line.

kokiman.2364:

Well like I said earlier they are trying to test how far they can get. People complained about the first unlimited pick aswell but later people didn’t care anymore and we got more of them + they got more expensive. Now they are trying to give people another incentive to buy them.

The increase in cost is because they changed them from Soulbound to Account bound though.

shootist.3607:

They hired a former Nexon ‘expert’ for monetization, afaik. Doesn’t this say everything?

They did hire say expert several MONTHS BEFORE the release of the game though. So it is not something new. And if she did all this, one would wonder why she waited over a year with it.

Are you talking about John Smith? How do you know who they are?

They are talking about Crystin Cox, she is responsible for the cash shop model for Maple Story.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Axialbloom.8109:

lordkrall.7241:

Invictus.1503:

Not a bug as they are advertising it on their own website. Here is how they describe it: “A recent breakthrough in mining technology has let us make a new infinite mining pick. This self-repairing pick has a chance to add a Watchwork Sprocket to the rewards when used to mine ore veins!”

Ah, I had not seen that.
Since that is the case, I would say this is definitely crossing the line.

kokiman.2364:

Well like I said earlier they are trying to test how far they can get. People complained about the first unlimited pick aswell but later people didn’t care anymore and we got more of them + they got more expensive. Now they are trying to give people another incentive to buy them.

The increase in cost is because they changed them from Soulbound to Account bound though.

shootist.3607:

They hired a former Nexon ‘expert’ for monetization, afaik. Doesn’t this say everything?

They did hire say expert several MONTHS BEFORE the release of the game though. So it is not something new. And if she did all this, one would wonder why she waited over a year with it.

Are you talking about John Smith? How do you know who they are?

They are talking about Crystin Cox, she is responsible for the cash shop model for Maple Story.

Ah. Cheers.

why haven’t they said anything yet? are they waiting to see if this really does anger the community like the flamewhatever armour?

Hofulu.7325:

why haven’t they said anything yet? are they waiting to see if this really does anger the community like the flamewhatever armour?

I almost have a picture of a dev walking the ANet offices with a tablet having this topic on it and going “who had this idea? Come on, speak up, we won’t fire you, we’ll just reassign you to the WvW forum duties”.

It starts…………..

Hofulu.7325:

why haven’t they said anything yet? are they waiting to see if this really does anger the community like the flamewhatever armour?

I hate to say “give them a day”, but you really do need to give them a day.

This has to go up and down the chain of command a few times before anyone will be allowed to come to the forums and say anything. They’ll want to know what’s going on, why, and have at least an answer of “will we do anything about this” if not an actual plan as to what to do.

Keep making noise, get others to post here and make noise if they’re upset by this. But there’s only so fast the company can respond.

so how much ranting is needed to get a response from Anet about this P2W kitten?

As some one who got the Molten Alliance Mining Pick this feels punishing and uncomfortable the people who got the Bone Pick must be very upset.

Why buy this new pick when a even better one may come out? where will the line stop?. I like the molten pick effects i get no bonus of new picks?

This is 1st item i think has truly cross the line.

The Forums Reaction: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyDbfCbQnH8

Remember that gear treadmill thing people were talking about when ascended came out.

Well this is the pick treadmill.

Seriously though I feel bad for everyone who already bought a pick. This thing shouldn’t have existed at all.

dAcIaW.5107:

so how much ranting is needed to get a response from Anet about this P2W kitten?

. . . where’s the “win” getting paid for? Aren’t sprockets tradeable?

I love how the forums blew up so quickly over this, without anyone actually testing the pick to see what it really does.

I’ve been using the pick for the better part of a day, just running around mining nodes in Orr and Sparkfly Fen. I’ve noticed that I never seem to get multiple ore chunks from a single swing with this pick. Rather, I get one ore chunk and a sprocket. So my running theory is, the pick replaces the bonus ore chunks you would normally get from nodes with watchwork sprockets. If this is true, the pick is far less “pay2win” than it appears.

While I don’t buy the entire Pay-to-Win argument (it’s a buzzword to stir up dander more than actually being applicable)…

I am NOT in support of extra little features being added onto items to entice people to buy them. Let’s be blunt; this item isn’t made for people who don’t have an infinite pick. It’s for the people who DO have one to entice them to buy ANOTHER.

I’m not okay with that. That’s a pure money-grabbing attempt more than something to improve a players Quality of Life in game.

chemiclord.3978:

While I don’t buy the entire Pay-to-Win argument (it’s a buzzword to stir up dander more than actually being applicable)…

I am NOT in support of extra little features being added onto items to entice people to buy them. Let’s be blunt; this item isn’t made for people who don’t have an infinite pick. It’s for the people who DO have one to entice them to buy ANOTHER.

I’m not okay with that. That’s a pure money-grabbing attempt more than something to improve a players Quality of Life in game.

I’ve purchased every unlimited gathering tool to date, because I like the unique skins and animations. If Anet keeps making gathering tools who’s skins/animations appeal to me, I might continue to purchase them.

Signing on to say I don’t know who came up with this but this was a terrible idea on many levels.

I completely agree with Vol and his supporters. This Watchwork Pick sets a dangerous precedent. This is a gem store item that offers a distinct benefit, however small, over anything that players can obtain through normal play. People might be looking at the prices for Sprockets now and going, “Pfft, that’s 30c. What’s the big deal?” But what will you say when the next sickle harvests Toxic Spores that currently sell for 3 silver? Or the next unlimited salvage kit has a chance to salvage +1 rare materials/Ectos/Dark Matter?

Or to go down a different path, if ANet released a gem store-only item that gave the player who bought it a 50% discount on all their waypoint fees forever, or a 25% discount on all future armor repairs, would you be crying foul? Monetarily speaking, that’s similar to what this pick offers.

I implore ANet to rethink this move and change the Watchwork Pick so it no longer gives bonus Sprockets. Gem store items should stick to offering only convenience and cosmetic advantages.

Quarktastic.1027:

I love how the forums blew up so quickly over this, without anyone actually testing the pick to see what it really does.

I’ve been using the pick for the better part of a day, just running around mining nodes in Orr and Sparkfly Fen. I’ve noticed that I never seem to get multiple ore chunks from a single swing with this pick. Rather, I get one ore chunk and a sprocket. So my running theory is, the pick replaces the bonus ore chunks you would normally get from nodes with watchwork sprockets. If this is true, the pick is far less “pay2win” than it appears.

Presuming this is true… I’m still not sure I like it terribly much (because that’s something that Arena.net should convey when they started selling it), but it would be more tolerable.

Quarktastic.1027:

I love how the forums blew up so quickly over this, without anyone actually testing the pick to see what it really does.

I’ve been using the pick for the better part of a day, just running around mining nodes in Orr and Sparkfly Fen. I’ve noticed that I never seem to get multiple ore chunks from a single swing with this pick. Rather, I get one ore chunk and a sprocket. So my running theory is, the pick replaces the bonus ore chunks you would normally get from nodes with watchwork sprockets. If this is true, the pick is far less “pay2win” than it appears.

Now that you mention it, I think you are right. That is interesting…

I’ll pay attention when I go on my resource run tonight.

Quarktastic.1027:

I love how the forums blew up so quickly over this, without anyone actually testing the pick to see what it really does.

I’ve been using the pick for the better part of a day, just running around mining nodes in Orr and Sparkfly Fen. I’ve noticed that I never seem to get multiple ore chunks from a single swing with this pick. Rather, I get one ore chunk and a sprocket. So my running theory is, the pick replaces the bonus ore chunks you would normally get from nodes with watchwork sprockets. If this is true, the pick is far less “pay2win” than it appears.

There’s pretty much zero percent chance that what you’re saying is true. I think we’d have an even bigger outrage if it was revealed that these picks secretly didn’t have the full functionality of regular picks. Chalk it up to RNG.

Nodo.6907:

I bought a TV one time that was HD and large…now they have new ones that are thinner with a better picture for cheaper than what I paid originally for my TV in the past but I don’t feel entitled for a refund or an updated TV.

Using the examples, why do so many people feel they deserve a refund or an update to their existing pick? Please no trolling or flaming, I am just curious on the communities thought on that.

Would you feel cheated if when you bought your TV, you bought so under the assumption that all future TVs would only have a different color frame, rather than improved capabilities, and your TV would be the best TV on the market?

Looking at the OP post and below…
First time I see 4 red-lined thumbs up in a row in a thread…
Heck… first time I see 4 red-lined thumbs up at all in a thread…
And one’s even red-lined with a start…
Keep upvoting posts you agree with and hopefully ANet gets the idea and takes the tool down faster than quick…

Also.. Even if the tool replaces anything, as Quarktastic says, it still has the functionality to dig up sprockets, which no other tool has. So it’s still a problem.

I really, really hope what OP says isn’t the way the game could be headed. I really love this game and it would be so devastating to see it ruin itself. It would be such a shame. Please, please rethink this Anet. None of my friends are happy about the new mining pick and say they’ll have to move on if things get bad.

So please, please. I promise I’ll buy Rox’s Quiver with real money instead of gold (the next time if comes out again) if you rethink this and not head down that horrid path.

Another small anecdotal sample:

• 36 Iron Ore
• 12 Silver Ore
• 24 Ori Ore
• 87 Mithril Ore
• 41 Sprockets
• Opal Crystal
• Chrys Orb
• Chrys Crystal
• Sapphire Crystal
• Sapphire Orb
• Beryl Crystal

This is with the guild resource banner buff and 48 hour guild wide buff. I got no double strikes for extra ore. All piles were divisible by 3.

Interesting…

Quarktastic.1027:

I love how the forums blew up so quickly over this, without anyone actually testing the pick to see what it really does.

I’ve been using the pick for the better part of a day, just running around mining nodes in Orr and Sparkfly Fen. I’ve noticed that I never seem to get multiple ore chunks from a single swing with this pick. Rather, I get one ore chunk and a sprocket. So my running theory is, the pick replaces the bonus ore chunks you would normally get from nodes with watchwork sprockets. If this is true, the pick is far less “pay2win” than it appears.

12 strikes off of the rich copper vein in the Shamans’ Rookery JP. Sprockets and gems came with it, as usual.

i think it is fine as it is.

the “no other source” argument is invalid as watchwork sprockets are not account bound, can be traded via the trading post.

the home instance watchwork sproket node gives decent amount of sprockets per day as well.

if anything, the prices of sprockets will plummet steadily since a lot of people will have their own personal sprocket nodes to farm sprockets.

new players who join in later can always buy sprockets from the trading post using in game gold.

the line to p2w was already crossed with the ore-pack. hell, the line was already crossed with being able to buy gold for gems. this and the pick are p2w by definition. that the items (or the chance for items) you get by paying for gemshop stuff are not worth much does not change the fact that you can pay money (or buy “money (gems)” for gold, which systematically doesn’t matter in the end because someone else had to buy it) to generate numerical advatages ingame. pay-to-win-an-insignificant-amount is still pay-to-win.

since p2w (as it’s defined by logic, people tend to have rude things called “opinions” apart from that) was included in this game from the beginning, i don’t care that much about that pick. resignation makes indifferent. just placing my post in this pot of “wrong direction, anet!”-shouters, so that maybe one day it might spill over.

Here’s the real problem:

In a game funded basically by a cash shop, customers will be sensitive to anything that has the perception of an advantage.

ANet, not being particularly sensitive to their customers’ experiences, and merely focused on technical details and their bottom line ($$$) obviously failed to ask an important question in their design meeting (assuming they follow true on their corporate analytic profile which means everything must be approved by consensus.)

The question should have been obvious to a designer aware and concerned about the perception of P2W. (I am not commenting on whether the item is or is not.)

Perception becomes reality.

I am sure there will be a post at some point that explains it’s only an “x” percent increase (“small to negligible” – in their technical detailed way). They won’t understand what the fuss is but if enough customers are upset they will “look into it to see if changes need to be made.”

Sadly all of this could have been avoided. I expect to see more of the same in the future.

Reminds me of the SAB infinite continue coin.

Gnat.9405:

Nodo.6907:

I bought a TV one time that was HD and large…now they have new ones that are thinner with a better picture for cheaper than what I paid originally for my TV in the past but I don’t feel entitled for a refund or an updated TV.

Using the examples, why do so many people feel they deserve a refund or an update to their existing pick? Please no trolling or flaming, I am just curious on the communities thought on that.

Would you feel cheated if when you bought your TV, you bought so under the assumption that all future TVs would only have a different color frame, rather than improved capabilities, and your TV would be the best TV on the market?

Honestly, what I assume when purchasing something is that there is always something better on it’s way out unless I was told otherwise and that things would never change by the one making the sell. Someone earlier also said that they bought the original ones with the understanding they would never be altered.

I’m in agreement, they should not have been altered and now that they have I think the solution would be to upgrade the existing ones. However, did they really ever say that was the case about them never changing? My question was mainly wondering why people would expect a refund or upgrade to their existing ones in the first place?

Also, why wouldn’t Anet have done that to begin with to avoid the uproar that it was bound to cause upon its release?

Palador.2170:

Hofulu.7325:

why haven’t they said anything yet? are they waiting to see if this really does anger the community like the flamewhatever armour?

I hate to say “give them a day”, but you really do need to give them a day.

Why? How did it get through QA in the first place? It isn’t hard to realise what the response would be.

Oh great, now we’re going to call out employees by name and claim they ruin the game. This tactic has no class.

morrolan.9608:

Why? How did it get through QA in the first place? It isn’t hard to realise what the response would be.

I don’t think QA’s responsibility is to try to ascertain what kind of backlash the item will bring from some of the player base. Now, if it didn’t work or something, that is another story …

Maybe they thought with a liquid enough system where you can trade gems, gold and real money, players wouldn’t be upset over a few sprockets that can be had by other methods?

And in a society where you routinely replace your electronics with newer, faster, better every seemingly month … that people wouldn’t care all that much or just cough up for the new pick.

I’m sure they wouldn’t have released it if they knew it would kick off the great “sprocket arms race of 2014” where if you don’t have this pick you are at risk of becoming obsolete.

DarcShriek.5829:

Oh great, now we’re going to call out employees by name and claim they ruin the game. This tactic has no class.

It has happened in the past that people who disagree with the stance of the topic creator on a subject will intentionally make comments specifically calling out employees (the one mentioned is the most common) and even attempt to derail the thread for the sole purpose of getting the thread closed. Instead of closing the thread the moderators should remove these individual posts (and infract where applicable) to allow the thread and the spirit of its discussion to continue. With a thread such as this, and the topic that it is discussing, closing it will not end the discussion as many players have an interest in the outcome of this matter, thus many more threads will likely spring up (more so than there already are). Allowing the posts to remain focused to this thread for the sake of discussion is better than dozens of threads across several forums were it to be closed.

With this in mind, if a moderator is scanning this thread, please judge and take action on individual posts based on their content and do not slam the doors on the entire thread due to these inappropriate few.

morrolan.9608:

Palador.2170:

I hate to say “give them a day”, but you really do need to give them a day.

Why? How did it get through QA in the first place? It isn’t hard to realise what the response would be.

While I do agree with you, I also have to agree with Palador where clamouring for a response is concerned. It took a day or two before we got an official response from ANet about the Flamekissed armor. It will take some time for the furor to propagate up the management chain, for them to get together in an emergency meeting, and discuss what to do about it. (As well they should. Any changes to the game should not be something done on a whim.) We probably won’t get an official response till tomorrow.

Contrition.8945:

JeffHardisty.1926:

This sounds like a good solution. I hope they read it.

You mean minus the extra window and clicks it takes to convert gold to gems? I guess they could just have a vendor that used the current exchange rate for gems, converted it to gold for you, and then let you buy it in game at a vendor.

Problem solved?

That’s one rude response. The idea to have a normal pick in game that could also get sprockets that people could buy for cheap (e.g. a pick like the mithril pick, etc) is a perfectly fine idea, because then the extra part of the watchwork pick would be available in game for normal currenty, and the watchwork pick would be like the other everlasting items offering convenience.

You didn’t have to get rude with a sarcastic response.

I’m not going to read 7 pages worth of responses, however, here’s my opinion. I have to agree that the mining pick sets a dangerous precedent. However, given the past history concerning gathering nodes as a reward, I have to theoretically conclude that ANet has plans to remove sprockets as regular drops from the game. As such, having the gathering node for them, as well as the mining pick, will insure that a steady supply of them remains available. I don’t think the picks chance of producing sprockets is necessary, but that’s my opinion.

Why do you all look so surprised? Where is the big News?
P2W FTL.

Change the pick like the other one arenaet… no p2w stuff on your game… dont dig more your grave

Not P2W.
Not by a long shot. And here’s why…
For those us us that have completed the meta for this LS, we have our own personal node to get Sprockets. Much like the Quartz Node, this will give us access to something you can’t get anywhere else in game.
But, where does that leave those of us who do not, or are unable to finish the meta?
kitten out of luck, that’s what. Unless they have a generous friend that lets them into their Home Instance to use their node…
This pick gives people another option for getting this crafting material, and puts less pressure on those who have a hard time with the meta.
On top of that, Sprockets can be bought and sold on the TP. This Pick in no way shape or form makes those without access to it unable to get Sprockets. If it did… If this Pick was the only way to get Sprockets, then I’d be up in arms over this like everyone else.

Pay2Win?
People are /far/ to quick to want to slap that label on this game

ShinjoNaomi.1896:

Not P2W.
Not by a long shot. And here’s why…
For those us us that have completed the meta for this LS, we have our own personal node to get Sprockets. Much like the Quartz Node, this will give us access to something you can’t get anywhere else in game.
But, where does that leave those of us who do not, or are unable to finish the meta?
kitten out of luck, that’s what. Unless they have a generous friend that lets them into their Home Instance to use their node…
This pick gives people another option for getting this crafting material, and puts less pressure on those who have a hard time with the meta.
On top of that, Sprockets can be bought and sold on the TP. This Pick in no way shape or form makes those without access to it unable to get Sprockets. If it did… If this Pick was the only way to get Sprockets, then I’d be up in arms over this like everyone else.

Pay2Win?
People are /far/ to quick to want to slap that label on this game

So then where is the goal post? If they sell a pick that gives a chance for ori at each node? Azurite Orbs? Gives gold coins? After all, these are all available in game and can be had by anyone.

Yes, the sprockets are a small thing. So let’s just move the goal post a little further…then a little further…then a little more.

It’s up to the player base to let the devs know whether or not they are ok with what’s on offer. For some players, just being able to buy gold is p2w, even if there was a good reason behind it (although this has not stopped gold sellers or bots at all in game, so that’s a failed experiment to an extent. Anet just gets a cut of those profits now). Players have the obligation to voice their opinions on either side of this issue.

In truth, it’s a p2w mechanic, just like many other p2w mechanics in game already. This one is just way too obvious to let go.

I am most definitely not okay with this, Arena Net needs to rethink what they have added.

kokiman.2364:

Well you supported the whole “Pay 2 Convinience” thing with the purchase of the unlimited tools and now this is what you get.

this not pay for convinience this is realy pay to win,
mabye is just small of the smallest thing right now but if you look closely this is the first pay2win item in gw2.

and you know why? is no other item in game who can do that, for infinite mining picks we have iron/steel/mithril/oricalcum mining pick for few silvers who do exact the same as infinite one. <<< this is ok

But for Watchwork Pick …? if I want to progress in game, how do I get them? ops… I cant, unless I buy this for real money.

and for kids with near sighted opinions, please dont answer “well, you can buy from TP” is not about TP

LOL, shame there hasn’t been as much outrage over the stupid RNG chest nonsense as this particular item has gotten, or that goofy fire armor set. “Pay to win” item or not, I want affordable weapon skins. You guys start outraging over that too, please.

spiritus.7983:

But for Watchwork Pick …? if I want to progress in game, how do I get them? ops… I cant, unless I buy this for real money.

and for kids with near sighted opinions, please dont answer “well, you can buy from TP” is not about TP

It’s progression to have Sprockets? Man I must have four stacks of them somewhere, it’s . . . wow, I must have progressed HUGELY then.

Seriously, this is “necessary to progress in the game”? Really?

game has been pay to win for a while, why would they change this?

killcannon.2576:

ShinjoNaomi.1896:

Not P2W.
Not by a long shot. And here’s why…
For those us us that have completed the meta for this LS, we have our own personal node to get Sprockets. Much like the Quartz Node, this will give us access to something you can’t get anywhere else in game.
But, where does that leave those of us who do not, or are unable to finish the meta?
kitten out of luck, that’s what. Unless they have a generous friend that lets them into their Home Instance to use their node…
This pick gives people another option for getting this crafting material, and puts less pressure on those who have a hard time with the meta.
On top of that, Sprockets can be bought and sold on the TP. This Pick in no way shape or form makes those without access to it unable to get Sprockets. If it did… If this Pick was the only way to get Sprockets, then I’d be up in arms over this like everyone else.

Pay2Win?
People are /far/ to quick to want to slap that label on this game

So then where is the goal post? If they sell a pick that gives a chance for ori at each node? Azurite Orbs? Gives gold coins? After all, these are all available in game and can be had by anyone.

Yes, the sprockets are a small thing. So let’s just move the goal post a little further…then a little further…then a little more.

It’s up to the player base to let the devs know whether or not they are ok with what’s on offer. For some players, just being able to buy gold is p2w, even if there was a good reason behind it (although this has not stopped gold sellers or bots at all in game, so that’s a failed experiment to an extent. Anet just gets a cut of those profits now). Players have the obligation to voice their opinions on either side of this issue.

In truth, it’s a p2w mechanic, just like many other p2w mechanics in game already. This one is just way to obvious to let go.

How about setting the goal posts at something that is actually pay to win. This is only pay to win for people who are math challenged.