Did GW2 lose its identity?
What do gem store sales have to do with the status of the game itself?
That’s an amazing question. It deals with the over all health and viability of the game, because long term, if the game makes less it’s less likely to be supported. Ask the people who played City of Heroes, which was also a title owned by NCSoft.
We’re not in any kind of danger yet. But showing a slacking of gem store sales, means people are less willing to spend money on the game. Obviously there could be many reasons for this, but from this thread, at least some people seem to believe the game has lost it’s identity and I can see why those people feel that way. I’m spending less. I could spend more,. but I’m not as happy with the product as I once was. It’s my decision to support it less than I did.
When I see that the game is moving more in a direction that benefits me, I’ll start spending more again.
I assume I’m not the only person who does this.
It could mean that people are less willing to spend money. It could also mean that there’s nothing worth spending money on too.
I agree. I’m always the proponent that there’s more than one reason for something to occur. I very rarely say that one thing caused another. But I do believe people leaving the game because they feel the game has changed is a factor, possibly a large factor. It’s obviously not the only factor.
The problem is I know people who feel this way and it’s unlikely that the people I know are the only ones who feel this way. We’ve seen many posts over many months about various things, all identity related. Given that the game was sold on the idea of the open world was the most important thing (living breathing world), that 9 month content drought with only PvP and raids probably hurt the game a lot.
The fact that the LS and new zones have returned to the path didn’t stop people from leaving during the content drought. Two of my guildies that played all the time for years are now playing another MMO, and spending there money there. Others log in, but not as often.
A lot of times it’s not the reality that matters, but the image. If people get it in there heads that this game is more hard core than it used to be, and they’re not hard core themselves, they’re going to feel less of a connection to the game, no matter what you say, no matter what I say. That’s how human nature works.
I used to think the devs were on the same page as me, but I had deluded myself into believing that, because development bore it out. I no longer think the devs are on the same page as me. Of course, the people working on the game are different, too. There are newer faces with newer ideas. Not all those ideas are going to jibe with mine.
I’m happy to keep playing and enjoy what I enjoy but that doesn’t necessarily make me happy with everything.
I find this thread very odd … I can’t understand how it appears like the OP associated the evolution of the game with it losing it’s identity, implying that having a game that evolves is a bad thing? Perhaps I haven’t played enough MMO’s but … I’ve yet to play an MMO where the devs don’t tries to change a bit to keep the game interesting to it’s veteran players.
Sure, Anet has made some errors during this evolution but I don’t think this is very relevant; any expectation that Anet just scores homeruns is unreasonable. I wouldn’t want to waste a single minute in a game where a developer would just pump out the same old, just to maintain game identity. Frankly, I think the whole idea that a game’s identity is the sum of it’s content and lore is wrong; it’s identity is how the dev team implements the game and interacts with players.
I find this thread very odd … I can’t understand how it appears like the OP associated the evolution of the game with it losing it’s identity, implying that having a game that evolves is a bad thing? Perhaps I haven’t played enough MMO’s but … I’ve yet to play an MMO where the devs don’t tries to change a bit to keep the game interesting to it’s veteran players.
Sure, Anet has made some errors during this evolution but I don’t think this is very relevant; any expectation that Anet just scores homeruns is unreasonable. I wouldn’t want to waste a single minute in a game where a developer would just pump out the same old, just to maintain game identity. Frankly, I think the whole idea that a game’s identity is the sum of it’s content and lore is wrong; it’s identity is how the dev team implements the game and interacts with players.
Sure all games evolve. But to some people this feels like mutation rather than evolution. Evolution implies slow steady change in a single direction. Some people, no idea how many, see the evolution of this game as something more sudden and drastic, which is why threads like this exist.
Evolution is mutation though or was it the other way around. Not arguing for or against what you said other than to correct that one part.
Hey call it whatever … it’s change. People might not appreciate the fact that games that don’t change enter ‘maintenance’ mode VERY quickly.
I find this thread very odd … I can’t understand how it appears like the OP associated the evolution of the game with it losing it’s identity, implying that having a game that evolves is a bad thing? Perhaps I haven’t played enough MMO’s but … I’ve yet to play an MMO where the devs don’t tries to change a bit to keep the game interesting to it’s veteran players.
Sure, Anet has made some errors during this evolution but I don’t think this is very relevant; any expectation that Anet just scores homeruns is unreasonable. I wouldn’t want to waste a single minute in a game where a developer would just pump out the same old, just to maintain game identity. Frankly, I think the whole idea that a game’s identity is the sum of it’s content and lore is wrong; it’s identity is how the dev team implements the game and interacts with players.
Sure all games evolve. But to some people this feels like mutation rather than evolution. Evolution implies slow steady change in a single direction. Some people, no idea how many, see the evolution of this game as something more sudden and drastic, which is why threads like this exist.
Just to be persnickety, but evolution is only a steady change in a single direction with 20/20 hindsight and all the randomness lost or forgotten. Evolution has been described as a “drunkard’s walk” as it randomly lurches in various directions and occasionally reverses itself in response to environmental pressures.
Be careful what you ask for
ANet may give it to you.
ANet may give it to you.
Evolution is mutation though or was it the other way around. Not arguing for or against what you said other than to correct that one part.
Sorry but this is not correct. That is not every mutation ends up being part of evolution. There are hundreds, probably thousands of mutations in any species population, most of which do not add to the ability of the species to survive, so those traits never end up getting passed down.
Successful mutation ends up causing evolution but random mutations abound that never make it.
Anet seems to throw a lot of things at the wall to see what sticks. But that means that the changes are drastic, not gradual, and some people will be taken out of their comfort zone.
The less gradual changes are, the more people will be affected. Evolution is the result of many mutations, but most mutations do not aid evolution.
Hey call it whatever … it’s change. People might not appreciate the fact that games that don’t change enter ‘maintenance’ mode VERY quickly.
Change is neither good nor bad. But saying a game changes and that’s okay doesn’t work if people don’t get behind the change. Games have survived because of change and games have been killed by change. Change is not necessarily a good thing.
Saying games that don’t change eventually are going to die is probably true. Which doesn’t mean that the wrong changes won’t kill a game even faster. Ask the people who played Star Wars Galaxies about how change affected that game.
Sure, some change is good and sure Anet has made some good changes. But Anet also tends to make a lot of changes that aren’t well received.
Nerfing the dungeon rewards was a change. I don’t think it helped this game at all…even if they were later fixed.
I thought the NCSoft people said Gem Store sales were steady, and only box sales were down these last few quarters. If so, I guess that would negate some of the theories.
To me, over the past nearly-5 years, many things have changed. This just seems like a bash-Raids thread. I consider Raids to be equivalent to WvW or PvP; something I don’t/did’nt initially find interesting, but would consider/did try out eventually. In other words, just another Game Mode I can take or leave.
I also don’t believe a player can’t be loyal to a game/franchise if they haven’t been playing since/near launch. No more than playing at/near launch would automatically make one a loyal player.
But, of course, each have their own opinion; one no more valid than the other.
Good luck.
I thought the NCSoft people said Gem Store sales were steady, and only box sales were down these last few quarters. If so, I guess that would negate some of the theories.
To me, over the past nearly-5 years, many things have changed. This just seems like a bash-Raids thread. I consider Raids to be equivalent to WvW or PvP; something I don’t/did’nt initially find interesting, but would consider/did try out eventually. In other words, just another Game Mode I can take or leave.
I also don’t believe a player can’t be loyal to a game/franchise if they haven’t been playing since/near launch. No more than playing at/near launch would automatically make one a loyal player.
But, of course, each have their own opinion; one no more valid than the other.
Good luck.
I never said a player can’t be loyal coming late to a game. I’m saying those most interested in the game would have bought it much earlier and those coming later are approaching the game more casually to begin with.
People who play games to not spend money can be loyal as they want to the game, but they’re not spending money.
Since Anet said that people who were free to play didn’t buy the expansion in the numbers they thought they would…well if you’re really loyal to a game and company one would think you’d buy the expansion, I know I would.
A lot of people, once a game goes free to play, jump in, try it, even if they’re playing other games to which they are loyal.
People on limited budgets are going to support their main games before games they jump into to kill time.
The point is, if people are playing the free game, but not spending money to buy the expansion, just how loyal are they?
Again, box sales are lacking; Gem Store sales are relatively even.
I’ve no idea how ‘loyal’ vets are; do they spend more money in the Gem Store than newer players? Do vets still need the items newer players might find convenient, after all this time?
I don’t think we have the answers to those questions, not being privy to the sales breakdowns….or any other kind of metrics.
Again, everyone has their own opinions. It would be great if we had actual facts. Maybe, some day. =)
I haven’t read through this whole thread but I agree with OP’s sentiment.
I want to experience the story development available in raids, people say not everyone needs to play all content but for a causal PvE gamer not seeing the story is like watching a movie and not being allowed to watch 20 minutes of it after paying for… not going to that cinema again.
Me and a few friends use to play GW2 alot, up until HoT expansion, we were both very excited for it too (especially me) but the raid scene really put me off GW2, in fact after raids were introduced I tried out both FF 14 and WoW (I have also played many other MMOs) and I must say they are much better games for elite gamers/raiding (opinion).
I think what the devs failed to see was they designed a MMO ‘without the grind’ which really appealed to a Niche market, casual gamers or players who were sick of the weekly ‘required’ raiding gearing etc.
GW2 also had a very good (in my opinion) PvP system and very unique combat mechanics.
However in trying to capture the raiding player base I think they definitely lost a significant part of their player base. Many casual gamers (feel free to see how much I spent on this game if a Dev is reading this) spend significant amounts of money on cash shop costumes etc. and I think GW2 could’ve sustained and possibly built on that player base and continued to be very profitable.
I hope GW2 goes back to focusing on good WvWvW content, PvP and fun open world PvE content that can be easily accessible to all players.
FYI, I also have full ascended gear, however a combination of erratic play times for a raid roster and poor latency (No Aussie servers) make it impossible for me to to raid effectively.
I still occasionally log in because I miss the game but I barely play it now.
Again, box sales are lacking; Gem Store sales are relatively even.
I’ve no idea how ‘loyal’ vets are; do they spend more money in the Gem Store than newer players? Do vets still need the items newer players might find convenient, after all this time?
I don’t think we have the answers to those questions, not being privy to the sales breakdowns….or any other kind of metrics.
Again, everyone has their own opinions. It would be great if we had actual facts. Maybe, some day. =)
You want some facts? It’s a fact that at least some people feel the game’s identity has changed. That’s an absolute fact. It’s a fact that at least some people claim to have stopped playing because of it.
There’s no way to tell how big that population is but to deny it exists is senseless.
No one has ever accused me of being overly hard on this game, but I can see how people I know have been affected by some of the changes.
With the implementation of this kind of raiding, Anet – whether they believe it or not – are shifting their brand away from some core tenants that brought people into the game. That will be off putting to many. Now, I accept that some may see that as a positive move. I do not.
And they are also bringing people back that expected something different before from the game based on what was said before release and what was found at release. They’ve been drifting away of the release vision for a rather long time, this was never advertised as an easy mode casual players paradise, it turned this way later in its lifetime, now they are trying to bring it back to the way it should’ve been.
Remember that explorable mode of dungeons was supposed to be their RAIDS?
Remember how the event chains in Orr were supposed to be their RAIDS?
Well a few months after release it was evident that neither dungeons nor the event chains in Orr were anything like Raids at all. That led to a mass exodus with the argument “there is no endgame”
Rather than having to go through that, here’s a quick view:
So another person who has no idea how to read earning reports. Posting diagrams means nothing.
This is what was stated in the NCSoft reports and it’s a fact:
I thought the NCSoft people said Gem Store sales were steady, and only box sales were down these last few quarters. If so, I guess that would negate some of the theories.
Gem sales are steady. Players aren’t leaving because of this so called identity change, or those leaving aren’t as many as those coming back, or those still playing are paying more money for gems. Financially it’s stable
What hurt the quarterly reports is going free to play. What also hurt their revenue is Heart of Thorns selling less than Guild Wars 2 Heroic Edition did back in 2014, which means before the free 2 play announcement the CORE game was selling more than the expansion does now. If there was no expansion and no free 2 play the game would still be selling, and selling better than the expansion, despite how weird that might sound.
Since Anet said that people who were free to play didn’t buy the expansion in the numbers they thought they would…well if you’re really loyal to a game and company one would think you’d buy the expansion, I know I would.
That’s true, loyal players would have bought the game.
However, there is another important question to ask regarding free players:
WHY aren’t they converting. Is it really the fault of Heart of Thorns that they aren’t converting (something they can’t see or experience) or of the core game (something they actually experience)?
Maybe the real issue with the revenue drop is in the Core game and not Heart of Thorns, and it wasn’t visible because before free 2 play you had to buy the game to experience it, now you experience it for free and if it’s not gripping/exciting enough, you can always opt not to buy it.
(edited by maddoctor.2738)
I thought the NCSoft people said Gem Store sales were steady, and only box sales were down these last few quarters. If so, I guess that would negate some of the theories.
To me, over the past nearly-5 years, many things have changed. This just seems like a bash-Raids thread. I consider Raids to be equivalent to WvW or PvP; something I don’t/did’nt initially find interesting, but would consider/did try out eventually. In other words, just another Game Mode I can take or leave.
I also don’t believe a player can’t be loyal to a game/franchise if they haven’t been playing since/near launch. No more than playing at/near launch would automatically make one a loyal player.
But, of course, each have their own opinion; one no more valid than the other.
Good luck.
I don’t know if your familiar with the term “whale” but whales are the primary target of Cash Shop oriented games. So gem store sales are maintained through whales ts obvious that outfits and glider skins are a favorite of whales and I don’t blame Anet for whaling that’s just standard practice. It just makes it harder for gen sales to fall so remaining steady isn’t a big deal but if sales really started to plummet then they’ve lost some whales and that’s a major problem.
A person doesn’t have to be a vet to be loyal but the term honeymoon phase comes to mind. People don’t take new people seriously because there just in the honeymoon phase. It’s when you can list, acknowledge, and accept the existing problems with the game and continue to play after that people will take notice because the honeymoon is over. Not just games cause the phrase A"honeymoon phase" obviously didn’t originate in gaming.
A person doesn’t have to be a vet to be loyal but the term honeymoon phase comes to mind. People don’t take new people seriously because there just in the honeymoon phase. It’s when you can list, acknowledge, and accept the existing problems with the game and continue to play after that people will take notice because the honeymoon is over. Not just games cause the phrase A"honeymoon phase" obviously didn’t originate in gaming.
The difference is, before free 2 play was added, to reach the “honeymoon phase”, and then go beyond it, you had to pay. Now you don’t, leading to that loss of revenue from sales. Back before the free version, in order to find the problems of the game, you had to pay for it first (since it was buy to play), so Anet always got a boost from the sale, no matter if you liked the game or not in the end. Now you can identify the problems with the game without paying anything, and then leave the game forever if you find those issues too hard to accept.
no body is forcing you to do raids stop complaining the game has to appeal to a lot of types of people
action combat made mmos better lol
Again, box sales are lacking; Gem Store sales are relatively even.
I’ve no idea how ‘loyal’ vets are; do they spend more money in the Gem Store than newer players? Do vets still need the items newer players might find convenient, after all this time?
I don’t think we have the answers to those questions, not being privy to the sales breakdowns….or any other kind of metrics.
Again, everyone has their own opinions. It would be great if we had actual facts. Maybe, some day. =)
You want some facts? It’s a fact that at least some people feel the game’s identity has changed. That’s an absolute fact. It’s a fact that at least some people claim to have stopped playing because of it.
There’s no way to tell how big that population is but to deny it exists is senseless.
No one has ever accused me of being overly hard on this game, but I can see how people I know have been affected by some of the changes.
And there is people that came back just because of HoT and raids.
Me and my friends played GW1 since prophecies until the launch of GW2, then we quit GW2 in the first year. Why? Because there wasnt challenge content, you didnt need to adapt your build for the content, builds felt meaningless ( All the things that we loved about GW1). I went back to GW1.
Now GW2 is back to the track like GW1, offering meaning build choices ( what give meaning to a build is the encounter ) and challenging fun content without gear trendmill. So we all came back when hot was announced, and we sticked to it, and dont plain to leave. If gw2 had challenge content we would never have left.
no body is forcing you to do raids stop complaining the game has to appeal to a lot of types of people
Dungeon, Pvp, and Fractal rewards were all nerfed I’d mention WVW but they didn’t have anything to nerf.
Dungeons were indeed to push people into raids and raids were exempt from the so called changes to normalizing gear aquisition.
It’s not that people are forced to do raids but the things people like to do are getting nerfed in an attempt to shovel those people into a mode they have no interest.
Raids are the teachers pet never getting into trouble and getting free passes in life while the others are in a corner with those cone hats. So of course people will be resentful in regards to raids. Probably could have used a better example but meh..
no body is forcing you to do raids stop complaining the game has to appeal to a lot of types of people
Dungeon, Pvp, and Fractal rewards were all nerfed I’d mention WVW but they didn’t have anything to nerf.
Dungeons were indeed to push people into raids and raids were exempt from the so called changes to normalizing gear aquisition.
It’s not that people are forced to do raids but the things people like to do are getting nerfed in an attempt to shovel those people into a mode they have no interest.
Raids are the teachers pet never getting into trouble and getting free passes in life while the others are in a corner with those cone hats. So of course people will be resentful in regards to raids. Probably could have used a better example but meh..
Exactly how were they nerfed?
no body is forcing you to do raids stop complaining the game has to appeal to a lot of types of people
Dungeon, Pvp, and Fractal rewards were all nerfed I’d mention WVW but they didn’t have anything to nerf.
Dungeons were indeed to push people into raids and raids were exempt from the so called changes to normalizing gear aquisition.
It’s not that people are forced to do raids but the things people like to do are getting nerfed in an attempt to shovel those people into a mode they have no interest.
Raids are the teachers pet never getting into trouble and getting free passes in life while the others are in a corner with those cone hats. So of course people will be resentful in regards to raids. Probably could have used a better example but meh..
Tell me how fractals rewards are nerfed? T4 fractals daily give the best reward fractals ever had add the 3 daily T4+the daily 100 CM and you get rewards better then raids.
In 1 week, raids give you 150 MS, and a chance of ascended from each boss ( its not rare to get 0 ascended after all the bosses ).
In 1 week, fractals give 21 Master Chest and 21 of other chests, that have a good chance of ascended, and liquid gold, and infusions. More relics that you can get 20 slot bags, some skins, stat infusions….
Dungeon were nerfed, but then they buffed it back, its profitable to run for the achiev of 5 gold.
So yeah, Fractals and Dungeons, are rewarding, even more then raids by the effort you need to do them.
And pvp got the ascended weapons/armor on top of the already good track rewards.
So stop lying about rewards.
For those that forgot about/didn’t know about the Dungeon nerf
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-guild-wars-2-heart-of-thorns-economy/
Dungeon Rewards
Over the last couple of years, dungeons have been a major part of the game’s economy; between unique armor and liquid rewards, they’re often farmed. In the expansion, we’ll move away from this paradigm. As the game progressed, we shifted focus from dungeons to fractals and raids, and we firmly believe that fractals and raids are the content that we want to continue to support. As a part of that process, we’ll shift some rewards away from dungeons and into other pieces of content. While dungeons will remain cool experiences that’ll reward players with unique items, their liquid rewards will be reduced and other content will become more rewarding. The shift in rewards is a direct representation of our focus on raids and fractals and our commitment to make them the best they can be.
Be careful what you ask for
ANet may give it to you.
ANet may give it to you.
For those that forgot about/didn’t know about the Dungeon nerf
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-guild-wars-2-heart-of-thorns-economy/
Dungeon Rewards
Over the last couple of years, dungeons have been a major part of the game’s economy; between unique armor and liquid rewards, they’re often farmed. In the expansion, we’ll move away from this paradigm. As the game progressed, we shifted focus from dungeons to fractals and raids, and we firmly believe that fractals and raids are the content that we want to continue to support. As a part of that process, we’ll shift some rewards away from dungeons and into other pieces of content. While dungeons will remain cool experiences that’ll reward players with unique items, their liquid rewards will be reduced and other content will become more rewarding. The shift in rewards is a direct representation of our focus on raids and fractals and our commitment to make them the best they can be.
Everyone know about these nerfs. And they buffed dungeons reward after the nerf. What a lot of people dont know, you included, that dungeons are profitable again after the buffs.
For those that forgot about/didn’t know about the Dungeon nerf
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-guild-wars-2-heart-of-thorns-economy/
Dungeon Rewards
Over the last couple of years, dungeons have been a major part of the game’s economy; between unique armor and liquid rewards, they’re often farmed. In the expansion, we’ll move away from this paradigm. As the game progressed, we shifted focus from dungeons to fractals and raids, and we firmly believe that fractals and raids are the content that we want to continue to support. As a part of that process, we’ll shift some rewards away from dungeons and into other pieces of content. While dungeons will remain cool experiences that’ll reward players with unique items, their liquid rewards will be reduced and other content will become more rewarding. The shift in rewards is a direct representation of our focus on raids and fractals and our commitment to make them the best they can be.
Everyone know about these nerfs. And they buffed dungeons reward after the nerf. What a lot of people dont know, you included, that dungeons are profitable again after the buffs.
If everyone knows about the nerf then there wouldn’t be a post above me asking about the nerf. The post right above me said they were later buffed so I didn’t see the point in repeating it.
Be careful what you ask for
ANet may give it to you.
ANet may give it to you.
For those that forgot about/didn’t know about the Dungeon nerf
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-guild-wars-2-heart-of-thorns-economy/
Dungeon Rewards
Over the last couple of years, dungeons have been a major part of the game’s economy; between unique armor and liquid rewards, they’re often farmed. In the expansion, we’ll move away from this paradigm. As the game progressed, we shifted focus from dungeons to fractals and raids, and we firmly believe that fractals and raids are the content that we want to continue to support. As a part of that process, we’ll shift some rewards away from dungeons and into other pieces of content. While dungeons will remain cool experiences that’ll reward players with unique items, their liquid rewards will be reduced and other content will become more rewarding. The shift in rewards is a direct representation of our focus on raids and fractals and our commitment to make them the best they can be.
Everyone know about these nerfs. And they buffed dungeons reward after the nerf. What a lot of people dont know, you included, that dungeons are profitable again after the buffs.
If everyone knows about the nerf then there wouldn’t be a post above me asking about the nerf. The post right above me said they were later buffed so I didn’t see the point in repeating it.
He was being sarcastic asking how all those things were nerfed, because just like me, he knows that all those things the other person claimed was nerfed ( dungeons, fractals, pvp rewards) are not nerfed, but buffed.
Again, box sales are lacking; Gem Store sales are relatively even.
I’ve no idea how ‘loyal’ vets are; do they spend more money in the Gem Store than newer players? Do vets still need the items newer players might find convenient, after all this time?
I don’t think we have the answers to those questions, not being privy to the sales breakdowns….or any other kind of metrics.
Again, everyone has their own opinions. It would be great if we had actual facts. Maybe, some day. =)
You want some facts? It’s a fact that at least some people feel the game’s identity has changed. That’s an absolute fact. It’s a fact that at least some people claim to have stopped playing because of it.
There’s no way to tell how big that population is but to deny it exists is senseless.
No one has ever accused me of being overly hard on this game, but I can see how people I know have been affected by some of the changes.
And there is people that came back just because of HoT and raids.
Me and my friends played GW1 since prophecies until the launch of GW2, then we quit GW2 in the first year. Why? Because there wasnt challenge content, you didnt need to adapt your build for the content, builds felt meaningless ( All the things that we loved about GW1). I went back to GW1.Now GW2 is back to the track like GW1, offering meaning build choices ( what give meaning to a build is the encounter ) and challenging fun content without gear trendmill. So we all came back when hot was announced, and we sticked to it, and dont plain to leave. If gw2 had challenge content we would never have left.
Not really my point. People are asking for facts in a thread that is absolutely 100% opinion based. There’s no right or wrong answer to the question posed by the OP. It all depends on your specific concept of what the game’s direction was in the first place, based on your specific concept of where the game has gone. It’s not really possible for someone to be wrong about what they think the game’s direction was to them.
Long before this started, I made a post in a raids thread and I said straight out that if raids were introduced in this game, part of the game’s audience would feel disenfranchised and some of those people would leave and over all, I believed and said that profits would decrease.
Raids came into the game, some people felt as I said and profits or at least total income has decreased. Does this mean I was right?
Nope, it doesn’t. There are many possible reasons why sales are less than they were. But this game made more money before raids were introduced. That much is factual.
There’s no way to prove the raids themselves did it, and it’s unlikely the raids did this all by themselves. But as I’ve said numerous times now, the raids are symbolic of a shift in the game to harder, more grindy content. And some people just aren’t on board with that.
For those that forgot about/didn’t know about the Dungeon nerf
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-guild-wars-2-heart-of-thorns-economy/
Dungeon Rewards
Over the last couple of years, dungeons have been a major part of the game’s economy; between unique armor and liquid rewards, they’re often farmed. In the expansion, we’ll move away from this paradigm. As the game progressed, we shifted focus from dungeons to fractals and raids, and we firmly believe that fractals and raids are the content that we want to continue to support. As a part of that process, we’ll shift some rewards away from dungeons and into other pieces of content. While dungeons will remain cool experiences that’ll reward players with unique items, their liquid rewards will be reduced and other content will become more rewarding. The shift in rewards is a direct representation of our focus on raids and fractals and our commitment to make them the best they can be.
Everyone know about these nerfs. And they buffed dungeons reward after the nerf. What a lot of people dont know, you included, that dungeons are profitable again after the buffs.
If everyone knows about the nerf then there wouldn’t be a post above me asking about the nerf. The post right above me said they were later buffed so I didn’t see the point in repeating it.
He was being sarcastic asking how all those things were nerfed, because just like me, he knows that all those things the other person claimed was nerfed ( dungeons, fractals, pvp rewards) are not nerfed, but buffed.
It is factually incorrect that everyone who plays gw2 or reads this thread knows that dungeons were nerfed back then. That was the point of my post. That the nerf was later partially reversed is true, but it doesn’t change that ANet is trying to push people from dungeons to raids and fractals. They nerfed dungeons back then specifically for that reason and not all know this and that post is information to those that didn’t.
Be careful what you ask for
ANet may give it to you.
ANet may give it to you.
(edited by Just a flesh wound.3589)
Again, box sales are lacking; Gem Store sales are relatively even.
I’ve no idea how ‘loyal’ vets are; do they spend more money in the Gem Store than newer players? Do vets still need the items newer players might find convenient, after all this time?
I don’t think we have the answers to those questions, not being privy to the sales breakdowns….or any other kind of metrics.
Again, everyone has their own opinions. It would be great if we had actual facts. Maybe, some day. =)
You want some facts? It’s a fact that at least some people feel the game’s identity has changed. That’s an absolute fact. It’s a fact that at least some people claim to have stopped playing because of it.
There’s no way to tell how big that population is but to deny it exists is senseless.
No one has ever accused me of being overly hard on this game, but I can see how people I know have been affected by some of the changes.
And there is people that came back just because of HoT and raids.
Me and my friends played GW1 since prophecies until the launch of GW2, then we quit GW2 in the first year. Why? Because there wasnt challenge content, you didnt need to adapt your build for the content, builds felt meaningless ( All the things that we loved about GW1). I went back to GW1.Now GW2 is back to the track like GW1, offering meaning build choices ( what give meaning to a build is the encounter ) and challenging fun content without gear trendmill. So we all came back when hot was announced, and we sticked to it, and dont plain to leave. If gw2 had challenge content we would never have left.
Not really my point. People are asking for facts in a thread that is absolutely 100% opinion based. There’s no right or wrong answer to the question posed by the OP. It all depends on your specific concept of what the game’s direction was in the first place, based on your specific concept of where the game has gone. It’s not really possible for someone to be wrong about what they think the game’s direction was to them.
Long before this started, I made a post in a raids thread and I said straight out that if raids were introduced in this game, part of the game’s audience would feel disenfranchised and some of those people would leave and over all, I believed and said that profits would decrease.
Raids came into the game, some people felt as I said and profits or at least total income has decreased. Does this mean I was right?
Nope, it doesn’t. There are many possible reasons why sales are less than they were. But this game made more money before raids were introduced. That much is factual.
There’s no way to prove the raids themselves did it, and it’s unlikely the raids did this all by themselves. But as I’ve said numerous times now, the raids are symbolic of a shift in the game to harder, more grindy content. And some people just aren’t on board with that.
Let’s not get it twisted. Stating it would be nice if ArenaNet or NCSoft released income facts isn’t derailing a thread that’s 100% opinion. In fact, I stated several times what people were posting here was only opinion. Differing opinions, at that.
Funny how some opinions seem to change depending on the thread, as well.
Again, box sales are lacking; Gem Store sales are relatively even.
I’ve no idea how ‘loyal’ vets are; do they spend more money in the Gem Store than newer players? Do vets still need the items newer players might find convenient, after all this time?
I don’t think we have the answers to those questions, not being privy to the sales breakdowns….or any other kind of metrics.
Again, everyone has their own opinions. It would be great if we had actual facts. Maybe, some day. =)
You want some facts? It’s a fact that at least some people feel the game’s identity has changed. That’s an absolute fact. It’s a fact that at least some people claim to have stopped playing because of it.
There’s no way to tell how big that population is but to deny it exists is senseless.
No one has ever accused me of being overly hard on this game, but I can see how people I know have been affected by some of the changes.
And there is people that came back just because of HoT and raids.
Me and my friends played GW1 since prophecies until the launch of GW2, then we quit GW2 in the first year. Why? Because there wasnt challenge content, you didnt need to adapt your build for the content, builds felt meaningless ( All the things that we loved about GW1). I went back to GW1.Now GW2 is back to the track like GW1, offering meaning build choices ( what give meaning to a build is the encounter ) and challenging fun content without gear trendmill. So we all came back when hot was announced, and we sticked to it, and dont plain to leave. If gw2 had challenge content we would never have left.
Not really my point. People are asking for facts in a thread that is absolutely 100% opinion based. There’s no right or wrong answer to the question posed by the OP. It all depends on your specific concept of what the game’s direction was in the first place, based on your specific concept of where the game has gone. It’s not really possible for someone to be wrong about what they think the game’s direction was to them.
Long before this started, I made a post in a raids thread and I said straight out that if raids were introduced in this game, part of the game’s audience would feel disenfranchised and some of those people would leave and over all, I believed and said that profits would decrease.
Raids came into the game, some people felt as I said and profits or at least total income has decreased. Does this mean I was right?
Nope, it doesn’t. There are many possible reasons why sales are less than they were. But this game made more money before raids were introduced. That much is factual.
There’s no way to prove the raids themselves did it, and it’s unlikely the raids did this all by themselves. But as I’ve said numerous times now, the raids are symbolic of a shift in the game to harder, more grindy content. And some people just aren’t on board with that.
Let’s not get it twisted. Stating it would be nice if ArenaNet or NCSoft released income facts isn’t derailing a thread that’s 100% opinion. In fact, I stated several times what people were posting here was only opinion. Differing opinions, at that.
Funny how some opinions seem to change depending on the thread, as well.
Well Anet isn’t going to post factually how many people are or aren’t playing or any specifics other than what they have to post to inform their stockholders. Whatever picture Anet paints is going to be with a broad brush.
But yes, I’ve been saying making the game less casual is going to hurt the game for a long long time, even though I personally enjoy HoT.
I find this thread very odd … I can’t understand how it appears like the OP associated the evolution of the game with it losing it’s identity, implying that having a game that evolves is a bad thing? Perhaps I haven’t played enough MMO’s but … I’ve yet to play an MMO where the devs don’t tries to change a bit to keep the game interesting to it’s veteran players.
Sure, Anet has made some errors during this evolution but I don’t think this is very relevant; any expectation that Anet just scores homeruns is unreasonable. I wouldn’t want to waste a single minute in a game where a developer would just pump out the same old, just to maintain game identity. Frankly, I think the whole idea that a game’s identity is the sum of it’s content and lore is wrong; it’s identity is how the dev team implements the game and interacts with players.
I think that a lot of angst, (although it’s not mentioned much in these forums), is that this game is called: Guild Wars 2
Where are the guild wars? The WvW in gw2 is Server Wars, it’s certainly not Guild Wars. There really isn’t any incentive to have guilds battle although you see guild groups roaming around looking for fights here and there.
This is what makes me “chuckle”. I play a game called “Guild Wars” (2), and it’s a name that doesn’t represent what you do in this game in any way that I can see.
My understanding of the original guild wars was that you had actual guild alliances (I don’t know how they worked since I didn’t play it), and I assume guild battles? GW2 moved away from those things, although they did bring back the guild halls finally.
This game has LOTS of variety between mapping, story, bosses, raids, pvp, wvw… Enough to keep people busy for ages. But to me I don’t see what it has to do with guild wars.
… just call me … Tim :)
I find this thread very odd … I can’t understand how it appears like the OP associated the evolution of the game with it losing it’s identity, implying that having a game that evolves is a bad thing? Perhaps I haven’t played enough MMO’s but … I’ve yet to play an MMO where the devs don’t tries to change a bit to keep the game interesting to it’s veteran players.
Sure, Anet has made some errors during this evolution but I don’t think this is very relevant; any expectation that Anet just scores homeruns is unreasonable. I wouldn’t want to waste a single minute in a game where a developer would just pump out the same old, just to maintain game identity. Frankly, I think the whole idea that a game’s identity is the sum of it’s content and lore is wrong; it’s identity is how the dev team implements the game and interacts with players.
I think that a lot of angst, (although it’s not mentioned much in these forums), is that this game is called: Guild Wars 2
Where are the guild wars? The WvW in gw2 is Server Wars, it’s certainly not Guild Wars. There really isn’t any incentive to have guilds battle although you see guild groups roaming around looking for fights here and there.
This is what makes me “chuckle”. I play a game called “Guild Wars” (2), and it’s a name that doesn’t represent what you do in this game in any way that I can see.
My understanding of the original guild wars was that you had actual guild alliances (I don’t know how they worked since I didn’t play it), and I assume guild battles? GW2 moved away from those things, although they did bring back the guild halls finally.
This game has LOTS of variety between mapping, story, bosses, raids, pvp, wvw… Enough to keep people busy for ages. But to me I don’t see what it has to do with guild wars.
1) This really has nothing to do with the thread nor many of the complaints.
2) The title is not based on actual player guilds fighting with each other.
Yes it was. “The Guild Wars” lore event is merely justification for the game’s title, and an out for when they did start focusing more on PvE content as its own reward instead of stepping stones/training for the GvG endgame.
Yes it was. “The Guild Wars” lore event is merely justification for the game’s title, and an out for when they did start focusing more on PvE content as its own reward instead of stepping stones/training for the GvG endgame.
Source?
No mention of what you claim from a briefing about a year before it released. I also found an interview from 2003.
(edited by Ayrilana.1396)
Unfortuantely, I don’t know how to go about finding 15-year-old promotional material.
Unfortuantely, I don’t know how to go about finding 15-year-old promotional material.
I recall that comment as well, but finding minor quotes from more than a decade ago is a stretch for me.
I find this thread very odd … I can’t understand how it appears like the OP associated the evolution of the game with it losing it’s identity, implying that having a game that evolves is a bad thing? Perhaps I haven’t played enough MMO’s but … I’ve yet to play an MMO where the devs don’t tries to change a bit to keep the game interesting to it’s veteran players.
Sure, Anet has made some errors during this evolution but I don’t think this is very relevant; any expectation that Anet just scores homeruns is unreasonable. I wouldn’t want to waste a single minute in a game where a developer would just pump out the same old, just to maintain game identity. Frankly, I think the whole idea that a game’s identity is the sum of it’s content and lore is wrong; it’s identity is how the dev team implements the game and interacts with players.
I think that a lot of angst, (although it’s not mentioned much in these forums), is that this game is called: Guild Wars 2
Where are the guild wars? The WvW in gw2 is Server Wars, it’s certainly not Guild Wars. There really isn’t any incentive to have guilds battle although you see guild groups roaming around looking for fights here and there.
This is what makes me “chuckle”. I play a game called “Guild Wars” (2), and it’s a name that doesn’t represent what you do in this game in any way that I can see.
My understanding of the original guild wars was that you had actual guild alliances (I don’t know how they worked since I didn’t play it), and I assume guild battles? GW2 moved away from those things, although they did bring back the guild halls finally.
This game has LOTS of variety between mapping, story, bosses, raids, pvp, wvw… Enough to keep people busy for ages. But to me I don’t see what it has to do with guild wars.
1) This really has nothing to do with the thread nor many of the complaints.
2) The title is not based on actual player guilds fighting with each other.
Point 2 is true, but at the same time that was the draw for a lot of people and the name made sense because, well, there was guild vs guild action, and it was quite active. So to just dismiss it because technically it refers to the Guild Wars as historical lore is a little disingenuous. People came to associate the game Guild Wars with, well, guilds warring against each other. It is understandable that they would think this would continue into a second game called Guild Wars 2.
I find this thread very odd … I can’t understand how it appears like the OP associated the evolution of the game with it losing it’s identity, implying that having a game that evolves is a bad thing? Perhaps I haven’t played enough MMO’s but … I’ve yet to play an MMO where the devs don’t tries to change a bit to keep the game interesting to it’s veteran players.
Sure, Anet has made some errors during this evolution but I don’t think this is very relevant; any expectation that Anet just scores homeruns is unreasonable. I wouldn’t want to waste a single minute in a game where a developer would just pump out the same old, just to maintain game identity. Frankly, I think the whole idea that a game’s identity is the sum of it’s content and lore is wrong; it’s identity is how the dev team implements the game and interacts with players.
I think that a lot of angst, (although it’s not mentioned much in these forums), is that this game is called: Guild Wars 2
Where are the guild wars? The WvW in gw2 is Server Wars, it’s certainly not Guild Wars. There really isn’t any incentive to have guilds battle although you see guild groups roaming around looking for fights here and there.
This is what makes me “chuckle”. I play a game called “Guild Wars” (2), and it’s a name that doesn’t represent what you do in this game in any way that I can see.
My understanding of the original guild wars was that you had actual guild alliances (I don’t know how they worked since I didn’t play it), and I assume guild battles? GW2 moved away from those things, although they did bring back the guild halls finally.
This game has LOTS of variety between mapping, story, bosses, raids, pvp, wvw… Enough to keep people busy for ages. But to me I don’t see what it has to do with guild wars.
1) This really has nothing to do with the thread nor many of the complaints.
2) The title is not based on actual player guilds fighting with each other.Point 2 is true, but at the same time that was the draw for a lot of people and the name made sense because, well, there was guild vs guild action, and it was quite active. So to just dismiss it because technically it refers to the Guild Wars as historical lore is a little disingenuous. People came to associate the game Guild Wars with, well, guilds warring against each other. It is understandable that they would think this would continue into a second game called Guild Wars 2.
I’m not dismissing the GvG aspect of GW1. Different aspects of the game appealed to different types of players. I’m dismissing the claim that the game’s title was based on it.
If you want to continue on with this discussion then make a new thread.
(edited by Ayrilana.1396)
Yes it was. “The Guild Wars” lore event is merely justification for the game’s title, and an out for when they did start focusing more on PvE content as its own reward instead of stepping stones/training for the GvG endgame.
GvG was never a supported game format in this game, so it couldn’t have been end game.
Yes it was. “The Guild Wars” lore event is merely justification for the game’s title, and an out for when they did start focusing more on PvE content as its own reward instead of stepping stones/training for the GvG endgame.
GvG was never a supported game format in this game, so it couldn’t have been end game.
Not in this game, but it was in the original. Guild Wars was originally an attempt at an MMO (That became a CORPG) that was focused on Guild Vs. Guild as its endgame, with the rest of the game and its lore developing around that concept (And drifting from it)
Yes it was. “The Guild Wars” lore event is merely justification for the game’s title, and an out for when they did start focusing more on PvE content as its own reward instead of stepping stones/training for the GvG endgame.
GvG was never a supported game format in this game, so it couldn’t have been end game.
Not in this game, but it was in the original. Guild Wars was originally an attempt at an MMO (That became a CORPG) that was focused on Guild Vs. Guild as its endgame, with the rest of the game and its lore developing around that concept (And drifting from it)
It may have been for the first Guild Wars, no offense to that game, didn’t play it much. It could have been a really fun game mode.
However this thread is about Guild Wars 2’s identity and whether it’s lost it or not, and GvG was never a part of this game’s identity.
I find this thread very odd … I can’t understand how it appears like the OP associated the evolution of the game with it losing it’s identity, implying that having a game that evolves is a bad thing? Perhaps I haven’t played enough MMO’s but … I’ve yet to play an MMO where the devs don’t tries to change a bit to keep the game interesting to it’s veteran players.
Sure, Anet has made some errors during this evolution but I don’t think this is very relevant; any expectation that Anet just scores homeruns is unreasonable. I wouldn’t want to waste a single minute in a game where a developer would just pump out the same old, just to maintain game identity. Frankly, I think the whole idea that a game’s identity is the sum of it’s content and lore is wrong; it’s identity is how the dev team implements the game and interacts with players.
I think that a lot of angst, (although it’s not mentioned much in these forums), is that this game is called: Guild Wars 2
Where are the guild wars? The WvW in gw2 is Server Wars, it’s certainly not Guild Wars. There really isn’t any incentive to have guilds battle although you see guild groups roaming around looking for fights here and there.
This is what makes me “chuckle”. I play a game called “Guild Wars” (2), and it’s a name that doesn’t represent what you do in this game in any way that I can see.
My understanding of the original guild wars was that you had actual guild alliances (I don’t know how they worked since I didn’t play it), and I assume guild battles? GW2 moved away from those things, although they did bring back the guild halls finally.
This game has LOTS of variety between mapping, story, bosses, raids, pvp, wvw… Enough to keep people busy for ages. But to me I don’t see what it has to do with guild wars.
1) This really has nothing to do with the thread nor many of the complaints.
2) The title is not based on actual player guilds fighting with each other.Point 2 is true, but at the same time that was the draw for a lot of people and the name made sense because, well, there was guild vs guild action, and it was quite active. So to just dismiss it because technically it refers to the Guild Wars as historical lore is a little disingenuous. People came to associate the game Guild Wars with, well, guilds warring against each other. It is understandable that they would think this would continue into a second game called Guild Wars 2.
I’m not dismissing the GvG aspect of GW1. Different aspects of the game appealed to different types of players. I’m dismissing the claim that the game’s title was based on it.
If you want to continue on with this discussion then make a new thread.
I wasn’t trying to derail the thread or dismiss the points you raised. I feel it is germane to the topic at hand, because this thread is about if GW2 has lost it’s identity. A person’s perception of that identity is formed from many things, including the title of the game. The perception may be based on incorrect assumptions, like the title implying that guilds can fight each other when it has never been the case (in GW2). That can leave a person with the impression that the game has shifted in a direction that shows it has lost it’s way, when in reality it is moving along more or less like it always has since launch.
I wasn’t trying to derail the thread or dismiss the points you raised. I feel it is germane to the topic at hand, because this thread is about if GW2 has lost it’s identity. A person’s perception of that identity is formed from many things, including the title of the game. The perception may be based on incorrect assumptions, like the title implying that guilds can fight each other when it has never been the case (in GW2). That can leave a person with the impression that the game has shifted in a direction that shows it has lost it’s way, when in reality it is moving along more or less like it always has since launch.
No the thread is about the identity of GW2 when it was launched and what it is now. Since GvG was never part of GW2, it’s not pertinent to the thread.
We are heroes. This is what we do!
RIP City of Heroes
RIP City of Heroes
I wasn’t trying to derail the thread or dismiss the points you raised. I feel it is germane to the topic at hand, because this thread is about if GW2 has lost it’s identity. A person’s perception of that identity is formed from many things, including the title of the game. The perception may be based on incorrect assumptions, like the title implying that guilds can fight each other when it has never been the case (in GW2). That can leave a person with the impression that the game has shifted in a direction that shows it has lost it’s way, when in reality it is moving along more or less like it always has since launch.
No the thread is about the identity of GW2 when it was launched and what it is now. Since GvG was never part of GW2, it’s not pertinent to the thread.
Fair enough, i’ll keep quiet on the issue. As I said, my intention wasn’t to derail the thread. Carry on.
Again, box sales are lacking; Gem Store sales are relatively even.
Even for the last quarter of the year which they experienced their lowest quarter, and is normally a good period for box sales?
Another derailing post. ^^
North Keep: One of the village residents will now flee if their home is destroyed.
“Game over man, Game Over!” – RIP Bill
North Keep: One of the village residents will now flee if their home is destroyed.
“Game over man, Game Over!” – RIP Bill
I find this thread very odd … I can’t understand how it appears like the OP associated the evolution of the game with it losing it’s identity, implying that having a game that evolves is a bad thing? Perhaps I haven’t played enough MMO’s but … I’ve yet to play an MMO where the devs don’t tries to change a bit to keep the game interesting to it’s veteran players.
Sure, Anet has made some errors during this evolution but I don’t think this is very relevant; any expectation that Anet just scores homeruns is unreasonable. I wouldn’t want to waste a single minute in a game where a developer would just pump out the same old, just to maintain game identity. Frankly, I think the whole idea that a game’s identity is the sum of it’s content and lore is wrong; it’s identity is how the dev team implements the game and interacts with players.
Change in identity doesn’t have to be a bad thing, but to some of us the change in GW2 is. And sure, many if not most MMOs change over time. Again, some for better and some are disastrous (NGE anyone?). I am someone who agrees that the direction of GW2 through HoT is not good for me. Some of the choices since then are a bit better, so I have hope.
it’s this luck based mystic toilet that we’re all so sick of flushing our money down. -Salamol
We played GW2 from launch and we loved it. A casual friendly MMO that we could jump in and have fun with friends. GW2 was so much fun to play.
Then came HoT, and it was harder and not so casual friendly. Suddenly the game had a grind to it, that we never felt before. We ended up leaving the game.
Recently, I came back to see how things are today. The base game is still there and is fun for short play sessions. HoT is less fun.
So for us, yes GW2 did “change” on us, and remains so today.
Pity.
We played GW2 from launch and we loved it. A casual friendly MMO that we could jump in and have fun with friends. GW2 was so much fun to play.
Then came HoT, and it was harder and not so casual friendly. Suddenly the game had a grind to it, that we never felt before. We ended up leaving the game.Recently, I came back to see how things are today. The base game is still there and is fun for short play sessions. HoT is less fun.
So for us, yes GW2 did “change” on us, and remains so today.
Pity.
This ^
We played GW2 from launch and we loved it. A casual friendly MMO that we could jump in and have fun with friends. GW2 was so much fun to play.
Then came HoT, and it was harder and not so casual friendly. Suddenly the game had a grind to it, that we never felt before. We ended up leaving the game.Recently, I came back to see how things are today. The base game is still there and is fun for short play sessions. HoT is less fun.
So for us, yes GW2 did “change” on us, and remains so today.
Pity.
Except the game had grind prior to HoT. That didn’t change.
The difficulty did raise a bit as enemies now have mechanics rather than the simple auto attacks they often did with another skill or two here and there. Once you learn those mechanics, things get a whole lot easier.
I just feel like there’s a new breed of dev at Anet who thinks dying repeatedly and running back or trying again and again is fun for most people, because they themselves find it fun. They’ve even bragged about it. They find it fun to die and bang their heads against those kinds of walls.
I’m cut from a different cloth. I never liked banging my head against a wall. And I never liked artificial difficulty. Stuff like enrage timers, or not being able to rez someone when you can rez them everywhere else in the game annoys the hell out of me. It’s changing the rules.
Agony is fractals is okay by me, because I can enjoy multiple levels of fractals without ever going to a tier 4 Fractal. I mean my Fractal level is 90, obviously I’ve done some T4, but the point is, that’s not my preferred content. So with Fractals, even if I didn’t play them at T4, I can still enjoy them at earlier tiers, more casually and slow work toward rewards. And yeah, I did get the Legendary Fractal backpack, and it wasn’t too onerous, but again, I didn’t enjoy that process. I did it, but didn’t enjoy it.
Raids are different from Fractals because there is no entry level and if I don’t play it that way, I can’t enjoy it at all. So it’s PvE content I’ll not enjoy even if I eventually do it all. That to me is different from what’s in the game elsewhere.
Prior to raids the only content in the game I hadn’t done in PvE was killing Liadri. I’d done everything else. I didn’t do the cheese life steal build before it was fixed, because that too isn’t really my kind of content, or really fun for me.
So in short, no matter what PvE release came out in the past, I was playing it and enjoying it. With Raids I get PvE releases now that I don’t enjoy and I don’t look forward to, and that feels different to me. It didn’t happen in the past.
Raids should have a mode for people who want to experience the content and story that everyone can enjoy, like low level Fractals and I’d have much less problem with them. But as of now, because they’re PvE content I don’t enjoy and probably never will, the game feels less…to me.
I’m not asking for raids to be taken out of the game or made easier. I am asking to give a range of experience so more people can experience them and, like T4 Fractals, if there was a gradual incline in difficulty, maybe I would have gotten there more happily.
Again, I play HOT the same way I played the core game. And I love those zones. That made HoT worth it for me. But do raids leave a strange taste in my mouth, finally having something in PvE that’s there all the time that I feel is past what I’m willing to invest in PvE?
Yep, it does.