Guild Wars 2

Vayne.8563:

I’m going by years and years of experience. It’s possible that Guild Wars 2 flies wildly in the fact of tradition from other MMOs, but considering how badly this game supports RPers I don’t why anyone would support that concept.

Very few games even have 10% of their playerbase as RPers. Even I’ve RPed from time to time…but I’m not an RPer. Any more than doing a dungeon every now and again makes me a dungeon runner. It’s not what I do. It’s not how I play.

The percentage of the playerbase that is self-identified as RPers is usually in most games very small. You don’t have to believe that, but that’s what past information has shown.

If you think somehow this game, which isn’t friendly to RPers (according to most RPers I’ve seen post) somehow bucks the trend and has more RPers by percentage than the rest of the industry, you’re perfectly welcome to believe that. I have no problem with it.

My suggestion that most people should just make up their own minds on what they believe is because I’m not going to change your mind and you’re not going to change mine.

When I have tried out other MMOs most of them have several worlds dedicated to roleplay…. that to me indicates there is a pretty significant amount of people interested in doing it. Why Arenanet decided to not do that, is a mystery to me… so while in other games all of the roleplayers would gather on their own servers… here in GW2 it is more diluted and they are spread out among all of the servers more.

People should and will of course decide for themselves but I am going to still point out when you are spouting unsubstantiated or unprovable or unknowable things as fact in the thread.

Phoenixlin.8624:

Years of experience. Lel. It is really pathetic to try to support your arguments by only with your experience.

Come with real evidence. Your own thoughts are not evidence.

Oh whatever. You are the one who said “DON’T GIEF PLAYERS ANY CHOICE. IF YOU DO, MY EXPERIENCE WILL BE HURTED”.

You know what I love about you? You attempt to make completely reasonable assumptions sound unreasonable.

Do you know what an educated guess is? It’s a guess that’s informed by experience. That’s all it is.

I’m arguing with someone who thinks 20% of MMO players RP. 20%. Do you believe that’s accurate?

Amethyst Rose.4367:

Vayne.8563:

I’m going by years and years of experience. It’s possible that Guild Wars 2 flies wildly in the fact of tradition from other MMOs, but considering how badly this game supports RPers I don’t why anyone would support that concept.

Very few games even have 10% of their playerbase as RPers. Even I’ve RPed from time to time…but I’m not an RPer. Any more than doing a dungeon every now and again makes me a dungeon runner. It’s not what I do. It’s not how I play.

The percentage of the playerbase that is self-identified as RPers is usually in most games very small. You don’t have to believe that, but that’s what past information has shown.

If you think somehow this game, which isn’t friendly to RPers (according to most RPers I’ve seen post) somehow bucks the trend and has more RPers by percentage than the rest of the industry, you’re perfectly welcome to believe that. I have no problem with it.

My suggestion that most people should just make up their own minds on what they believe is because I’m not going to change your mind and you’re not going to change mine.

When I have tried out other MMOs most of them have several worlds dedicated to roleplay…. that to me indicates there is a pretty significant amount of people interested in doing it. Why Arenanet decided to not do that, is a mystery to me… so while in other games all of the roleplayers would gather on their own servers… here in GW2 it is more diluted and they are spread out among all of the servers more.

People should and will of course decide for themselves but I am going to still point out when you are spouting unsubstantiated or unprovable or unknowable things as fact in the thread.

Yep, that why I said everyone can decide for themselves. Because it is unknowable.

But if you look at the RPers and what they’re saying, and they’ve said it from the beginning…Anet completely ignores them. They’re like the red-headed stepchildren of Guild Wars 2.

Now if you were a developer, and 20% of your playerbase was doing something, would you really ignore them? Not without a good reason.

That’s called an educated guess.

Vayne.8563:

You know what I love about you? You attempt to make completely reasonable assumptions sound unreasonable.

Do you know what an educated guess is? It’s a guess that’s informed by experience. That’s all it is.

I’m arguing with someone who thinks 20% of MMO players RP. 20%. Do you believe that’s accurate?

MMO I am pretty sure comes from MMORPG which has RP in it. So yes I think 20% is a reasonable guess.

Vayne.8563:

Yep, that why I said everyone can decide for themselves. Because it is unknowable.

But if you look at the RPers and what they’re saying, and they’ve said it from the beginning…Anet completely ignores them. They’re like the red-headed stepchildren of Guild Wars 2.

Now if you were a developer, and 20% of your playerbase was doing something, would you really ignore them? Not without a good reason.

That’s called an educated guess.

You’ll find people do unreasonable things call the time… and maybe there is some greater context that neither of us is seeing explaining Arenanet’s decision making process that we are not privy to. So I can see both things as possibilities.

Either 1) They have a good reason why they are not doing it and we just don’t know what it is or 2) There is no good reason and they are hurting themselves out of ignorance or not caring.

There are plenty of real world examples of both these things happening everywhere you look. Assuming that it is because there just aren’t very many roleplayers does not have a sound basis in fact.

Amethyst Rose.4367:

Vayne.8563:

You know what I love about you? You attempt to make completely reasonable assumptions sound unreasonable.

Do you know what an educated guess is? It’s a guess that’s informed by experience. That’s all it is.

I’m arguing with someone who thinks 20% of MMO players RP. 20%. Do you believe that’s accurate?

MMO I am pretty sure comes from MMORPG which has RP in it. So yes I think 20% is a reasonable guess.

Come on. I don’t even agree with the majority of Vayne’s points here (though I do agree with some of them), and I like to RP (For the toast!), but 20% is an exceedingly high estimate. I’d wager the RP community is closer to 1% than 20%. There are legions of people who play MMORPGs and have absolutely no idea what the RP stands for. RPG describes a genre of game that attempts to emulate the old tabletop RPGs. There are decades of computer-based RPGs that predate the first MMOs, and even MUDs.

Actual roleplay has very little to do with the MMO crowds, Vayne is spot-on.

Guhracie.3419:

Come on. I don’t even agree with the majority of Vayne’s points here (though I do agree with some of them), and I like to RP (For the toast!), but 20% is an exceedingly high estimate. I’d wager the RP community is closer to 1% than 20%. There are legions of people who play MMORPGs and have absolutely no idea what the RP stands for. RPG describes a genre of game that attempts to emulate the old tabletop RPGs. There are decades of computer-based RPGs that predate the first MMOs, and even MUDs.

Actual roleplay has very little to do with the MMO crowds, Vayne is spot-on.

And I don’t disagree with the majority of what you said there, but 1% is ridiculous… I guess it also depends on what you define as RP…. that definition itself can swing the % vastly. There is a wide spectrum of casual roleplay… just pretending to be your character while doing the content. Roleplaying with other players in that manner…. complete immersion.

If you say complete immersion… sure 1% is probably accurate. Roleplaying with others probably brings it to 10% and casual roleplay I think brings it to 20%.

That is my 2 cents… but the whole idea of RPG going back to MUD and single player RPGs is all about getting into character and acting things out like you were that character. That is roleplay.

Players who just create characters to kill things are not roleplayers… and that is the majority of the players I am pretty sure.

Vayne.8563:

People on different servers used to have to guest to get stuff done and complained about it. What about their freedom?

IF one chose a low pop server and then turned out to not like it they could Guest OR Transfer. Freedom was present whether you acknowledge it or not. Now there isn’t – at least on this topic.

Amethyst Rose.4367:

Vayne.8563:

You know what I love about you? You attempt to make completely reasonable assumptions sound unreasonable.

Do you know what an educated guess is? It’s a guess that’s informed by experience. That’s all it is.

I’m arguing with someone who thinks 20% of MMO players RP. 20%. Do you believe that’s accurate?

MMO I am pretty sure comes from MMORPG which has RP in it. So yes I think 20% is a reasonable guess.

LMFAO! Now look at who’s speculating. RP ORIGINALLY meant something completely different than it does today and that’s not speculation. All RPG means today is a game with a story in which you have a character that progresses. That’s all it means.

Many RPGs today are single player games. Now you might be calling something RP that’s not RP, for example, being immersed in a game or story…but RP, as in the activity has a very specific definition. I get immersed and into games and story all the time…but that’s not actually RPing and people who do that don’t necessarily consider themselves RPers. I sure don’t.

Now if solo games can be RPGs and no one is actually RPing in them, then 100% of those RPGs are played by non-role players.

This isn’t just speculation. It’s a gross misintepretation of the entire genre. This isn’t Dungeons and Dragons anymore, which I used to play. What RPing has become is completely 100% totally different.

20% of people don’t RP in RPGs, unless you’re just talking about immersion…which isn’t RPing.

Amethyst Rose.4367:

Vayne.8563:

Yep, that why I said everyone can decide for themselves. Because it is unknowable.

But if you look at the RPers and what they’re saying, and they’ve said it from the beginning…Anet completely ignores them. They’re like the red-headed stepchildren of Guild Wars 2.

Now if you were a developer, and 20% of your playerbase was doing something, would you really ignore them? Not without a good reason.

That’s called an educated guess.

You’ll find people do unreasonable things call the time… and maybe there is some greater context that neither of us is seeing explaining Arenanet’s decision making process that we are not privy to. So I can see both things as possibilities.

Either 1) They have a good reason why they are not doing it and we just don’t know what it is or 2) There is no good reason and they are hurting themselves out of ignorance or not caring.

There are plenty of real world examples of both these things happening everywhere you look. Assuming that it is because there just aren’t very many roleplayers does not have a sound basis in fact.

You don’t make changes out of ignorance and uncaring. If you don’t care, you don’t put effort into changing something that was working before. They have a reason. My guess is town clothes sales didn’t meet expectations and weren’t worth continuing. My guess is the mega server was created to keep people playing the game, instead of leaving it from seeing a dead world.

An MMO with low retention rates for new players…is an MMO on a bad bad road.

Amethyst Rose.4367:

Guhracie.3419:

Come on. I don’t even agree with the majority of Vayne’s points here (though I do agree with some of them), and I like to RP (For the toast!), but 20% is an exceedingly high estimate. I’d wager the RP community is closer to 1% than 20%. There are legions of people who play MMORPGs and have absolutely no idea what the RP stands for. RPG describes a genre of game that attempts to emulate the old tabletop RPGs. There are decades of computer-based RPGs that predate the first MMOs, and even MUDs.

Actual roleplay has very little to do with the MMO crowds, Vayne is spot-on.

And I don’t disagree with the majority of what you said there, but 1% is ridiculous… I guess it also depends on what you define as RP…. that definition itself can swing the % vastly. There is a wide spectrum of casual roleplay… just pretending to be your character while doing the content. Roleplaying with other players in that manner…. complete immersion.

If you say complete immersion… sure 1% is probably accurate. Roleplaying with others probably brings it to 10% and casual roleplay I think brings it to 20%.

That is my 2 cents… but the whole idea of RPG going back to MUD and single player RPGs is all about getting into character and acting things out like you were that character. That is roleplay.

Players who just create characters to kill things are not roleplayers… and that is the majority of the players I am pretty sure.

RP as defined by RPers….people who engage in the activity is not immersion. I’m an immersion player and because RP has other connotations I’d never use it to describe what I do.

Vayne.8563:

RP as defined by RPers….people who engage in the activity is not immersion. I’m an immersion player and because RP has other connotations I’d never use it to describe what I do.

Immersion as in always in character.

Vayne.8563:

You don’t make changes out of ignorance and uncaring. If you don’t care, you don’t put effort into changing something that was working before. They have a reason. My guess is town clothes sales didn’t meet expectations and weren’t worth continuing. My guess is the mega server was created to keep people playing the game, instead of leaving it from seeing a dead world.

An MMO with low retention rates for new players…is an MMO on a bad bad road.

You’d be surprised how many decisions are made out of ignorance. There was almost no town clothing! And most of my friends had what little they had to offer.

Vayne.8563:

LMFAO! Now look at who’s speculating. RP ORIGINALLY meant something completely different than it does today and that’s not speculation. All RPG means today is a game with a story in which you have a character that progresses. That’s all it means.

Many RPGs today are single player games. Now you might be calling something RP that’s not RP, for example, being immersed in a game or story…but RP, as in the activity has a very specific definition. I get immersed and into games and story all the time…but that’s not actually RPing and people who do that don’t necessarily consider themselves RPers. I sure don’t.

Now if solo games can be RPGs and no one is actually RPing in them, then 100% of those RPGs are played by non-role players.

This isn’t just speculation. It’s a gross misintepretation of the entire genre. This isn’t Dungeons and Dragons anymore, which I used to play. What RPing has become is completely 100% totally different.

20% of people don’t RP in RPGs, unless you’re just talking about immersion…which isn’t RPing.

No it didn’t mean something completely different… the role meant the class you played. Rogue, Fighter etc…

That is your limited view of things… but I come to expect that from you.

Amethyst Rose.4367:

Vayne.8563:

LMFAO! Now look at who’s speculating. RP ORIGINALLY meant something completely different than it does today and that’s not speculation. All RPG means today is a game with a story in which you have a character that progresses. That’s all it means.

Many RPGs today are single player games. Now you might be calling something RP that’s not RP, for example, being immersed in a game or story…but RP, as in the activity has a very specific definition. I get immersed and into games and story all the time…but that’s not actually RPing and people who do that don’t necessarily consider themselves RPers. I sure don’t.

Now if solo games can be RPGs and no one is actually RPing in them, then 100% of those RPGs are played by non-role players.

This isn’t just speculation. It’s a gross misintepretation of the entire genre. This isn’t Dungeons and Dragons anymore, which I used to play. What RPing has become is completely 100% totally different.

20% of people don’t RP in RPGs, unless you’re just talking about immersion…which isn’t RPing.

No it didn’t mean something completely different… the role meant the class you played. Rogue, Fighter etc…

That is your limited view of things… but I come to expect that from you.

That’s my professional view as someone who was a game buyer and worked with companies like EA and Sierra Online and SSI on a regular basis. My limited view is a professional view from in the industry. What are you basing your view on?

I looked at the games called RPGs and realized the shift. In fact, most adventure games coming out were more like old RPGs because many of the new RPGs were nothing more than dungeon crawls.

Take a game like Dungeon Master which was an RPG in which you played four characters at the same time. They moved at once. There was nothing in it to say you played in character, because you were four characters. There was no dialogue. No story, besides a flimsy excuse to get through the dungeon. But it was an RPG.

It’s all very nice to disagree with me and all, but this isn’t something I’m making up. Maybe you need to fact check?

munkiman.3068:

Retention has a lot to do with the social aspect of the game, which has been reduced.

Just wanted to say how much I agree with this statement above. I’m still catching up on this thread as I’ve not been on the forums that much of late, nor have I been in game for 2 months now, I will likely stop posting on these forums eventually as I’ve lost almost all hope that this game will ever return to the game I loved.

I tip my hat to you, munkiman. While your entire post was great, this one sentence was the strongest for me. I’m sure Vayne probably already threw your words out and disagreed, saying something to the point of “but there are more people so you’re wrong”…. But I know the truth of it.

Quality over quantity of players. Period.

Are there more people in any given map? Yes. But its the same as someone shoving 150 cats into the back of a truck and saying that they are better for it.

Mhmmmmm…. NO.

Vayne.8563:

That’s my professional view as someone who was a game buyer and worked with companies like EA and Sierra Online and SSI on a regular basis. My limited view is a professional view from in the industry. What are you basing your view on?

I looked at the games called RPGs and realized the shift. In fact, most adventure games coming out were more like old RPGs because many of the new RPGs were nothing more than dungeon crawls.

Take a game like Dungeon Master which was an RPG in which you played four characters at the same time. They moved at once. There was nothing in it to say you played in character, because you were four characters. There was no dialogue. No story, besides a flimsy excuse to get through the dungeon. But it was an RPG.

It’s all very nice to disagree with me and all, but this isn’t something I’m making up. Maybe you need to fact check?

I did work for Sierra online in the when I was in college…. currently I make content that is used in video games…. and make roleplay aids in SecondLife.

73% of players engage in rp from time to time
12% of those don’t even know it
33% of players don’t like megaserver
29% of players like megaserver but believe there are serious problems that need to be fixed
38% of players have no opinion on megaserver as they don’t log in often enough to notice any changes
2% of players wear no clothes
88% of players never guested and/or have no idea it existed
43% of players like fishing
60% of players don’t buy gems anymore
99% of players think that having to spend your time trying to get on same copy of map as rest of party is absolute bs and needs to be fixed
1% of players think that having to spend your time trying to get on same copy of map as rest of party is absolute awesomeness and doesn’t need to be fixed

Real stats, true story, we can all do it:)

Amethyst Rose.4367:

Vayne.8563:

That’s my professional view as someone who was a game buyer and worked with companies like EA and Sierra Online and SSI on a regular basis. My limited view is a professional view from in the industry. What are you basing your view on?

I looked at the games called RPGs and realized the shift. In fact, most adventure games coming out were more like old RPGs because many of the new RPGs were nothing more than dungeon crawls.

Take a game like Dungeon Master which was an RPG in which you played four characters at the same time. They moved at once. There was nothing in it to say you played in character, because you were four characters. There was no dialogue. No story, besides a flimsy excuse to get through the dungeon. But it was an RPG.

It’s all very nice to disagree with me and all, but this isn’t something I’m making up. Maybe you need to fact check?

I did work for Sierra online in the when I was in college…. currently I make content that is used in video games…. and make roleplay aids in SecondLife.

Second Life isn’t a game. It’s a virtual world. It can contain games within it. You still didn’t answer my question. I’m actually stunned that someone who worked for Sierra Online would claim that RPGs today are about RPGing, when in fact most of Sierra’s Online games were adventure games and not called RPGs at all. That’s where the real RPGing took place, if you were looking for immersion.

Games like Dungeon Master, quite popular in its time (you can look up Legend of Grimrock another game like that) had a party of four. But you couldn’t be RPing in it because all your characters moved together and though they all had different skills, none of them interacted with anything in any meaningful way. It was all attacking and solving puzzles, with progression. But it was still an RPG. It was advertised and sold as an RPG.

Immersion isn’t RPing and trying ot say that 20% of people are either RPing or immersion players might actually be right. But I’m pretty sure many of those people don’t have the same problems with mega servers you do, because I’m an immmersion player not an RPer and I don’t have those problems.

Vayne.8563:

Second Life isn’t a game. It’s a virtual world. It can contain games within it. You still didn’t answer my question. I’m actually stunned that someone who worked for Sierra Online would claim that RPGs today are about RPGing, when in fact most of Sierra’s Online games were adventure games and not called RPGs at all. That’s where the real RPGing took place, if you were looking for immersion.

Games like Dungeon Master, quite popular in its time (you can look up Legend of Grimrock another game like that) had a party of four. But you couldn’t be RPing in it because all your characters moved together and though they all had different skills, none of them interacted with anything in any meaningful way. It was all attacking and solving puzzles, with progression. But it was still an RPG. It was advertised and sold as an RPG.

Immersion isn’t RPing and trying ot say that 20% of people are either RPing or immersion players might actually be right. But I’m pretty sure many of those people don’t have the same problems with mega servers you do, because I’m an immmersion player not an RPer and I don’t have those problems.

SecondLife is a MMO… what we have been talking about here no? Sierra Online made adventure games that were sort of roleplayish but I never claimed they were RPGs did I? Although Quest for Glory may have been considered one….

I am not sure where you are going with all this but I don’t see how questioning my background helps you prove any points?

Amethyst Rose.4367:

Vayne.8563:

Second Life isn’t a game. It’s a virtual world. It can contain games within it. You still didn’t answer my question. I’m actually stunned that someone who worked for Sierra Online would claim that RPGs today are about RPGing, when in fact most of Sierra’s Online games were adventure games and not called RPGs at all. That’s where the real RPGing took place, if you were looking for immersion.

Games like Dungeon Master, quite popular in its time (you can look up Legend of Grimrock another game like that) had a party of four. But you couldn’t be RPing in it because all your characters moved together and though they all had different skills, none of them interacted with anything in any meaningful way. It was all attacking and solving puzzles, with progression. But it was still an RPG. It was advertised and sold as an RPG.

Immersion isn’t RPing and trying ot say that 20% of people are either RPing or immersion players might actually be right. But I’m pretty sure many of those people don’t have the same problems with mega servers you do, because I’m an immmersion player not an RPer and I don’t have those problems.

SecondLife is a MMO… what we have been talking about here no? Sierra Online made adventure games that were sort of roleplayish but I never claimed they were RPGs did I? Although Quest for Glory may have been considered one….

I am not sure where you are going with all this but I don’t see how questioning my background helps you prove any points?

You’ve made statements that basically amount to saying I’m making things up, and using conjecture, even when my comments are backed up by industry standards, including the company you worked for. They didn’t call those games RPGs because in the industry they weren’t considered RPGs. RPGs were about stat progression. When that shift happened a lot of people complained about it and there was a lot of talk about it, but of course, the companies one. Today RPG means something different than it meant 20 years ago.

So your insistence that people RP because this is an MMORPG, when you don’t even know what an RPG is by today’s standards, doesn’t hold much weight. You accuse me of speculating on stuff that I know from experience.

You have no idea of what I know or where I’ve been, but you should probably just stop arguing. Every time you say something like people RPG because this is an MMORPG, you are asking for this kind of feedback. Don’t make statements like that, and you won’t get this type of feedback.

In fact, say anything you want now. I’m convinced talking to you isn’t going to end well. Trahearne told me that.

Vayne.8563:

You’ve made statements that basically amount to saying I’m making things up, and using conjecture, even when my comments are backed up by industry standards, including the company you worked for. They didn’t call those games RPGs because in the industry they weren’t considered RPGs. RPGs were about stat progression. When that shift happened a lot of people complained about it and there was a lot of talk about it, but of course, the companies one. Today RPG means something different than it meant 20 years ago.

So your insistence that people RP because this is an MMORPG, when you don’t even know what an RPG is by today’s standards, doesn’t hold much weight. You accuse me of speculating on stuff that I know from experience.

You have no idea of what I know or where I’ve been, but you should probably just stop arguing. Every time you say something like people RPG because this is an MMORPG, you are asking for this kind of feedback. Don’t make statements like that, and you won’t get this type of feedback.

In fact, say anything you want now. I’m convinced talking to you isn’t going to end well. Trahearne told me that.

20 years ago there were no MMOs. The MMORPG is a new term… so it doesn’t matter that the usage of RPG has changed over time. And even back then the term RPG has the same basis for RP…. in the sense that you have a specific type of character that you play…. suited to your playstyle or personality…. or the personality of your character.

And I do NOT think RPG meant stat progression… although that was an element in many of them…

I am sorry but you are the one that is completely off base here.

Amethyst Rose.4367:

Vayne.8563:

You’ve made statements that basically amount to saying I’m making things up, and using conjecture, even when my comments are backed up by industry standards, including the company you worked for. They didn’t call those games RPGs because in the industry they weren’t considered RPGs. RPGs were about stat progression. When that shift happened a lot of people complained about it and there was a lot of talk about it, but of course, the companies one. Today RPG means something different than it meant 20 years ago.

So your insistence that people RP because this is an MMORPG, when you don’t even know what an RPG is by today’s standards, doesn’t hold much weight. You accuse me of speculating on stuff that I know from experience.

You have no idea of what I know or where I’ve been, but you should probably just stop arguing. Every time you say something like people RPG because this is an MMORPG, you are asking for this kind of feedback. Don’t make statements like that, and you won’t get this type of feedback.

In fact, say anything you want now. I’m convinced talking to you isn’t going to end well. Trahearne told me that.

20 years ago there were no MMOs. The MMORPG is a new term… so it doesn’t matter that the usage of RPG has changed over time. And even back then the term RPG has the same basis for RP…. in the sense that you have a specific type of character that you play…. suited to your playstyle or personality…. or the personality of your character.

And I do NOT think RPG meant stat progression… although that was an element in many of them…

I am sorry but you are the one that is completely off base here.

I’m off base. So explain to me how games like this were sold as an RPG (and even listed in Wikipedia as an RPG).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeon_Master_

Edit: You keep making my points for me. You’re right. 20 years ago there were no MMORPGs and the RPG moniker was already changing what it meant. By the time the game came out, it didn’t mean RPing to most people in the same way it did to me in earlier years.

The industry changed what an RPG was. Don’t blame me for it. So again saying MMORPG is in the name of the program means people are RPing is just a little bit preposterous.

Vayne.8563:

You have no idea of what I know or where I’ve been, but you should probably just stop arguing. Every time you say something like people RPG because this is an MMORPG, you are asking for this kind of feedback. Don’t make statements like that, and you won’t get this type of feedback.

The same could be directed right back at you. :/
When you continually take a disrespectful tone, is it really a surprise that you may receive the same? You’re creating much of it, though not all admittedly. If you actually took some care into what you’re saying and how you say it – I imagine the same consideration would be granted towards you.

Right now though I don’t see anybody cheering you on, Vayne, except yourself. I’m not happy with myself right now because I’ve allowed myself to post completely off topic and I’m rewarding you right now. You’re enjoying all of this. * sigh *

While its hard for me to remain quiet and/or ignore rude behavior – I’m going to try my hardest to completely ignore everything you have to say from this point forward. I don’t see anything productive coming from you to suggest that I should. I’m sorry in advance if that offends you.

Vayne.8563:

I’m off base. So explain to me how games like this were sold as an RPG (and even listed in Wikipedia as an RPG).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeon_Master_

Edit: You keep making my points for me. You’re right. 20 years ago there were no MMORPGs and the RPG moniker was already changing what it meant. By the time the game came out, it didn’t mean RPing to most people in the same way it did to me in earlier years.

The industry changed what an RPG was. Don’t blame me for it. So again saying MMORPG is in the name of the program means people are RPing is just a little bit preposterous.

I am not sure what you are going on about Dungeon Master maybe I am not understanding you….

But regarding MMORPG… that term was coined in 1997 by the Ultima Online creator which is the type of role playing game that I am familiar with… so using the RPG in that… it means what I am meaning it to mean. About creating a character and roleplaying… which there was tons of in Ultima Online.

So I am proving MY point not yours. You may be using the old school pre-MMORPG definition of RPG… and that is fine but… I clearly said MMORPG in my post.

Azhure.1857:

Vayne.8563:

You have no idea of what I know or where I’ve been, but you should probably just stop arguing. Every time you say something like people RPG because this is an MMORPG, you are asking for this kind of feedback. Don’t make statements like that, and you won’t get this type of feedback.

The same could be directed right back at you. :/
When you continually take a disrespectful tone, is it really a surprise that you may receive the same? You’re creating much of it, though not all admittedly. If you actually took some care into what you’re saying and how you say it – I imagine the same consideration would be granted towards you.

Right now though I don’t see anybody cheering you on, Vayne, except yourself. I’m not happy with myself right now because I’ve allowed myself to post completely off topic and I’m rewarding you right now. You’re enjoying all of this. * sigh *

While its hard for me to remain quiet and/or ignore rude behavior – I’m going to try my hardest to completely ignore everything you have to say from this point forward. I don’t see anything productive coming from you to suggest that I should. I’m sorry in advance if that offends you.

Actually that works for me. As far as people cheering me on, I have plenty of friends on these forums. More than you’d likely believe. Not everyone who cheers me on needs to do it publicly. You’d be surprised at how many people who lurk have thanked me for posting the stuff I do.

There isn’t much need to argue about RP. One of the only times ANet has really commented on it, they stated they would look into a way to help RP folks with the megaserver changes. So, they at least acknowledge RP is a large enough demographic to consider.

munkiman.3068:

There isn’t much need to argue about RP. One of the only times ANet has really commented on it, they stated they would look into a way to help RP folks with the megaserver changes. So, they at least acknowledge RP is a large enough demographic to consider.

Yeah I agree… I’ve said my bit on it think I am done… sorry for helping us get off topic.

munkiman.3068:

There isn’t much need to argue about RP. One of the only times ANet has really commented on it, they stated they would look into a way to help RP folks with the megaserver changes. So, they at least acknowledge RP is a large enough demographic to consider.

Don’t get me wrong. I absolutely think Anet should do more for the RP community and I always have. It’s why I said the city servers should be on home servers and not the mega server. That would help a lot. There should be an RP chat (instead of using say so it’s harder to get trolled) or a box you can check so the megaserver algorhthym can identify you as an RPer. I’m in favor of all of that.

But I still think more people are helped by the mega server than hindered by it. It needs work for sure.

Azhure.1857:

munkiman.3068:

Retention has a lot to do with the social aspect of the game, which has been reduced.

Just wanted to say how much I agree with this statement above. I’m still catching up on this thread as I’ve not been on the forums that much of late, nor have I been in game for 2 months now, I will likely stop posting on these forums eventually as I’ve lost almost all hope that this game will ever return to the game I loved.

I tip my hat to you, munkiman. While your entire post was great, this one sentence was the strongest for me. I’m sure Vayne probably already threw your words out and disagreed, saying something to the point of “but there are more people so you’re wrong”…. But I know the truth of it.

Quality over quantity of players. Period.

Are there more people in any given map? Yes. But its the same as someone shoving 150 cats into the back of a truck and saying that they are better for it.

Mhmmmmm…. NO.

I agree with both of you as well…. it is definitely the social aspect which has been hindered by megaservers and that is basically what led to the RP tangent I unfortunately helped to grow.

I made a wordcloud of this thread through RSS, although it only gives 1000 posts, so from about the end of April. Thought it would be interesting.

munkiman.3068:

I made a wordcloud of this thread through RSS, although it only gives 1000 posts, so from about the end of April. Thought it would be interesting.

Oh wow that is neat… lol “Vayne” is one of the top 10 most used words.

Thank you that is great.

Amethyst Rose.4367:

munkiman.3068:

I made a wordcloud of this thread through RSS, although it only gives 1000 posts, so from about the end of April. Thought it would be interesting.

Oh wow that is neat… lol “Vayne” is one of the top 10 most used words.

Thank you that is great.

Ha, yeah and the feed doesn’t take being quoted, so that’s his actual post count

Vayne.8563:

No the guy who posted didn’t really know anything about the issue and admitted as much. But he still felt strongly enough to demand that Anet turn back the megaserver. He had no idea anyone liked it.

Edit: Obviously the positive responses came AFTER he felt urged to make that post.

I’ll take that example with a grain of salt. Assuming 12 posts constitutes a “mob”:

• by your own previous reckoning, many of those posts were probably the same people chiming in multiple times.
• also (I believe) by your previous statements (it could have been someone else) most of the people who hate the MegaServer have left the game by now. So it’s no wonder the poor guy felt outnumbered and picked on.

What I find interesting, is that now that the MegaServer has had plenty of time to be “tweaked” and otherwise “improved”, someone can still come in to the game cold and feel angered by the changes it has shoved down our throats. How good is a system that produces outrage as a first impression?

EDIT: I’m not aiming that question at YOU, Vayne. It seems BOTH sides of the issue agree about Cities being off the MegaServer, and that it still needs lots of work if it’s going to stay. I’m hoping ANet will see that question and ask it of themselves.

Hamfast.8719:

Vayne.8563:

No the guy who posted didn’t really know anything about the issue and admitted as much. But he still felt strongly enough to demand that Anet turn back the megaserver. He had no idea anyone liked it.

Edit: Obviously the positive responses came AFTER he felt urged to make that post.

I’ll take that example with a grain of salt. Assuming 12 posts constitutes a “mob”:

• by your own previous reckoning, many of those posts were probably the same people chiming in multiple times.
• also (I believe) by your previous statements (it could have been someone else) most of the people who hate the MegaServer have left the game by now. So it’s no wonder the poor guy felt outnumbered and picked on.

What I find interesting, is that now that the MegaServer has had plenty of time to be “tweaked” and otherwise “improved”, someone can still come in to the game cold and feel angered by the changes it has shoved down our throats. How good is a system that produces outrage as a first impression?

EDIT: I’m not aiming that question at YOU, Vayne. It seems BOTH sides of the issue agree about Cities being off the MegaServer, and that it still needs lots of work if it’s going to stay. I’m hoping ANet will see that question and ask it of themselves.

This is why my name keeps coming up, people keep talking about me. lol

Okay, let’s try this.

If the mega server was taken off cities, for WvW and RPers, how far would that go to solving most of the complaints?

What complaints wouldn’t be solved by that and what can be done to solve the other complaints?

Vayne.8563:

Okay, let’s try this.

If the mega server was taken off cities, for WvW and RPers, how far would that go to solving most of the complaints?

What complaints wouldn’t be solved by that and what can be done to solve the other complaints?

Okay… fair enough. Let me try to meet you halfway.

My main issue with the MegaServer is that I prefer a less populated world in general so that I can feel more challenged, and so that I feel like a more “important” part of what’s going on around me. It is for that reason I selected a lower population server in the first place.

Secondary to that is the super-crowded scenarios; cities (mostly around the banks, merchants, and other “important” NPCs) and the bigger Boss/Champion fights. I have had to turn off Player Names in order to even see through the cloud of text in cities. And I have fairly regular lag to the point of occasional disconnects during the bigger Boss fights because of the tremendous amount of data being shoved through my Internet connection. (Not to mention they are no longer remotely fun with the Zerg mentality in control. Gone in 60 seconds, with no feeling that my contribution meant a thing).

Taking the cities off the MegaServer would solve my city overcrowding complaints completely. No issue there for me personally, although I DO have one Guildie who says she prefers the crowding.

But the overcrowded “outdoors” remains a problem. If it were reduced by about 50%, I would be okay I think. But I doubt that everyone would agree. I know I’ve seen threads where people want to increase zone capacity for the tougher “Mega-Bosses” like Tequatl and the 3-Headed Wurm.

It’s a stumper. How’s THIS for a middle-ground solution: 3 tiers of MegaServers.

Split up the Servers. Designate some of them as HIGH POPULATION, some as MEDIUM POPULATION, and some of them as LOW POPULATION. Then have a MegaServer for each of the three population sizes, combining populations from only their designated Servers. Medium Population servers can be MegaServed to maximize their zones at approximately the level we have now. High Population servers could be MegaServed to maximize zone levels at a higher number, for people wanting that for Tequatl. Low Population servers would have a lower zone maximum for those of us who feel crowded right now.

Pros? Cons? They’d have to give everyone a one-time free server transfer, I imagine, (including Guild Bank transfer I suppose) if their server becomes designated to be of a population density they aren’t comfortable with. 3 MegaServers. The Low MegaServer, the Medium MegaServer, and the High MegaServer.

Only problem I can see with splitting the servers is what it would do to WvW. That is to say if you want a good WvW side, but you want empty servers, you’re basically screwed. I don’t see how that can be helped.

Of course I don’t know how many people want empty servers and how much work it costs to run a server with very few people on it, which is Anet’s concern not mine.

It’s definitely more efficient to run less servers.

It would sort of be good of the mega server had an option to put you in the least populated server, instead of the most populated. A box you could tick.

Edit: I think giving people more control on how the algorithm handles them personally might be the best solution.

ANet? Are you listening? Are you listening? We’re slowly figuring this thing out for you. Will you implement it if we come to some sort of accord? (THIS is where the Developers are supposed to return to the forums and say “You are learning, Grasshopper!”)

I guess the other thing they can do is to give each zone a label and allow you to transfer to a different one if you don’t like the one you’re in. Like they did in Guild Wars 1.

I’d just like to point out that if Anet gave a flying kitten about our feedback, this arguing would have caused the thread to have been locked by now!

Azhure.1857:

Vayne.8563:

You have no idea of what I know or where I’ve been, but you should probably just stop arguing. Every time you say something like people RPG because this is an MMORPG, you are asking for this kind of feedback. Don’t make statements like that, and you won’t get this type of feedback.

Right now though I don’t see anybody cheering you on, Vayne, except yourself.

I guess I don’t exist? Because I’m totally with Vayne on this point. Just because something is called an RPG doesn’t mean people are roleplaying in the sense that it is meant when one talks about how the megaserver impacted the RP community.

Guhracie.3419:

I guess I don’t exist? Because I’m totally with Vayne on this point. Just because something is called an RPG doesn’t mean people are roleplaying in the sense that it is meant when one talks about how the megaserver impacted the RP community.

Just as not all people actually care to Role Play in their RPG, so also do not all people want to be buried in bodies in their MMO.

Hamfast.8719:

Guhracie.3419:

I guess I don’t exist? Because I’m totally with Vayne on this point. Just because something is called an RPG doesn’t mean people are roleplaying in the sense that it is meant when one talks about how the megaserver impacted the RP community.

Just as not all people actually care to Role Play in their RPG, so also do not all people want to be buried in bodies in their MMO.

What does that even have to do with what I said? I’ve never once commented on being in agreement with Vayne’s points that megaserver is the best solution for the most people. I’ve been outspoken in the things I dislike about megaservers. But just because I don’t agree with Vayne about everything doesn’t mean that I’m going to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Amethyst estimated that 20% of GW2 players make up the roleplay community. Vayne said that was a high estimate. I agree. That’s the extent of what’s going on with my involvement.

Guhracie.3419:

What does that even have to do with what I said? I’ve never once commented on being in agreement with Vayne’s points that megaserver is the best solution for the most people. I’ve been outspoken in the things I dislike about megaservers. But just because I don’t agree with Vayne about everything doesn’t mean that I’m going to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Amethyst estimated that 20% of GW2 players make up the roleplay community. Vayne said that was a high estimate. I agree. That’s the extent of what’s going on with my involvement.

I’m sorry if I don’t know the history of what you support and what you don’t. To me it sounded like you were sliding us back into the RP topic again, instead of the MegaServer topic, and I misunderstood. I agree that the designation “MMORPG” means absolutely nothing. Some people see that and want to pigeonhole GW2 into a certain category. That doesn’t work, especially in a game that once touted itself as the place you can “play the way you want to play”.

I’m hoping they release info that addresses some (if not all) of these issues in a couple weeks. Till then i’ll reserve judgment and stop posting here about how “bad” i feel it is.

If this feature pack doesn’t fix things with the megaserver, i can guarantee i won’t spend another dime on this game. Besides, Destiny is coming soon and i LOVED the beta. So, for me 9/9 is make or break for my GW2 experience.

Take this with a grain of salt (I know that I do).

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/205/view/forums/thread/81686/General-Daedalus-Project-RolePlay-Stats.html

Well of course RPers do not take a major percentage in this game. ANet did one heck of a good job chasing them away. The last good thing they did specificly for the RP community was enabling walking animation for players. And that happened between beta weekend tests.

People can take a hint when you undermine (or just obliviously ignore the consequences of some changes to their collective preferences and priorities) their playstyle at every second update.

Incidently both TC and PS, the two unofficial RP servers were high population servers. Not all who were native to these servers were roleplayers. I also met a few who did not even know what roleplaying meant. But on TC and PS the majority were roleplayers. I wont try percentages though, as that appearently causes issues of “facts” and “making up numbers”.

Now though, technically every server has 100% of its population as WvW players, since technically that is the only place where the term “server” actually has any meaning left.

Oh, there is supposedly some algorythm that takes home servers into account when sorting people, but who believes that? Not in Europe we don’t. We are sinners against faith or something, because when we are not living the curse of the Tower of Babel, we are in silent limbo fearfull of uttering a word other than the bare-basic instructions of some brave commanders who just say the time and place of some events.

Seriously. I have never seen such silence in map and say chat. But the maps are full of people. Like sophisticated bots. Only i cant sit on a high perch and report them one by one (that was bloody good fun after release), because supposedly they are real.
Oh well. Gotta settle for the gold sellers.

Well, i wish i had more to say on RP but i still dont understand the RP element to this game when it doesn’t allow the most basic functions like “sit” on a chair. I dunno i think RP is better served in games that allow that sort of thing. I think the draw is that it’s prettier, more immersive. Not saying RP’ers should give up, but i really don’t think the game was designed with them in mind.

Ashen.2907:

Take this with a grain of salt (I know that I do).

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/205/view/forums/thread/81686/General-Daedalus-Project-RolePlay-Stats.html

Yeah those stats are even higher than I would put it at, but thanks they are somewhat vindicating.

Every approaching update, I keep hoping for some clarification on what is being done about the problems introduced by the Megaserver, but I keep being left disappointed. I used to play every day, but ever since the Megaserver got introduced it has been less and less. I am a roleplayer, and we have gone over what this has meant for us too many times for me to type it all out again. It is bad. I am tired of being harassed. If there is anything going on in mapchat, it is usually toxic, especially around WvW reset. Back when the WvW tournament had just ended, it was nothing but trash talking and insulting other servers endlessly. Who thought it would be a good idea to first pit people against each other in constant fights for one and a half years, creating server rivalry and intense dislike, and then force us all to play together on a daily basis?

When I play, not even 20% of the people I run into are from guilds I recognise as TC guilds. I miss the TC community, especially the roleplay community. I want to experience the old TC, but I keep being separated from my guldies and friends, I am unable to find other roleplayers, and the overcrowding is so massive it creates actual problems with loading certain maps. The sorting algorithm seems to have improved somewhat, as I am actually landing on the same map as party members a bit more often than before, but it is still very flawed and is not delivering what was promised. I still get separated from my friends more often than not. Being forced into crowds of unfamiliar faces just makes me feel lonely. (One face that does keep showing up, though, is the person that has graphically threatened to sexually assault me to the point of lasting physical damage. Lovely work.)

I feel like every insurance and promise regarding sorting we got before the introduction of Megaserver failed to deliver, and it seems like ANet does not actually know how to program something that works the way they intended for this to work. That makes me feel very doubtful of the skill levels of their programmers, and of them as a company.

What upsets me the most, though, is the silence from ANet. One comment of “we are looking into things”, without providing any information about what they see as problems, in four months is just not enough. It creates the impression of them not wanting to actually engage in CDI, just being able to say that they do.