Guild Wars 2

PookieDaWombat.6209:

I can promise you that if Anet did link any fix to the trait system to the new content and made that content paid while leaving those that don’t pay for it in limbo that I would not only walk away from the game, but i’d walk away from Anet. Such an idea would be so ill conceived and ill received that it would sink them, so I cannot fathom them actually doing that.

I’d also hope that they would float a fix BEFORE they try going live with HoT in any way shape or form simply because if it IS a new paid for expansion, I will not buy it unless this trait problem is fixed in a way that is well received by most.

If HoT is a paid expansion, I’m confident they’ll do a system pass either before or concurrent with it. Vital systems like Traits are universal to the game, so those would be handled independent of expansion. If they take any lessons from WoW, they’ll release the system/feature patch ahead of time, so players are acclimated to class changes before the content hits.

But that’s a lot of “if” statements, so all speculation.

Then again, it’s also ANet design decisions, so I’m not comforted that they wouldn’t kitten this up in some horrible fashion.

Rauderi.8706:

PookieDaWombat.6209:

I can promise you that if Anet did link any fix to the trait system to the new content and made that content paid while leaving those that don’t pay for it in limbo that I would not only walk away from the game, but i’d walk away from Anet. Such an idea would be so ill conceived and ill received that it would sink them, so I cannot fathom them actually doing that.

I’d also hope that they would float a fix BEFORE they try going live with HoT in any way shape or form simply because if it IS a new paid for expansion, I will not buy it unless this trait problem is fixed in a way that is well received by most.

If HoT is a paid expansion, I’m confident they’ll do a system pass either before or concurrent with it. Vital systems like Traits are universal to the game, so those would be handled independent of expansion. If they take any lessons from WoW, they’ll release the system/feature patch ahead of time, so players are acclimated to class changes before the content hits.

But that’s a lot of “if” statements, so all speculation.

Then again, it’s also ANet design decisions, so I’m not comforted that they wouldn’t kitten this up in some horrible fashion.

As many people hate Blizzard’s design decisions. While you are sitting here praising WoW and asking Anet to learn from them, many WoW players ask Blizzard to do the same.

nGumball.1283:

As many people hate Blizzard’s design decisions. While you are sitting here praising WoW and asking Anet to learn from them, many WoW players ask Blizzard to do the same.

And Blizzard has, in some small QoL areas. Irrelevant bitterness against the WoW aside, a good idea is a good idea, no matter who comes up with it.

Specific to traits, yes, GW2 would do well to learn from that one aspect and keep system updates separate from content/expansion goals. Considering that there is precedent, Feature Pack versus Living Story, I expect they’ll continue the trend anyway.

PookieDaWombat.6209:

I can promise you that if Anet did link any fix to the trait system to the new content and made that content paid while leaving those that don’t pay for it in limbo that I would not only walk away from the game, but i’d walk away from Anet. Such an idea would be so ill conceived and ill received that it would sink them, so I cannot fathom them actually doing that.

I’d also hope that they would float a fix BEFORE they try going live with HoT in any way shape or form simply because if it IS a new paid for expansion, I will not buy it unless this trait problem is fixed in a way that is well received by most.

I think they will update the system in a feature pack in March/April before HoT comes out.

If they do a trait update in March, then I’d hope that they would actually talk about their plans with us in here sometime in February. We need to be able to weigh in on it in some way before it goes live. If that doesn’t happen then I will fully endorse any and all grievances with the update be spread out in as many threads as possible on the boards.

I’m not even kidding.

We played by the rules on this thread when the trait update first happened and we were essentially ignored, and not just by Anet, but by many players that hadn’t been affected by the change until recently when they started a new toon. If the next update occurs in a vacuum and there are problems that we see with it after launch I say we show exactly how squeaky of a wheel we can be by making it summarily impossible for it to be ignored.

Now, the change could be a good one. It could be great even if they have seriously taken what we’ve said in here to heart, unfortunately their track record thus far doesn’t instill much hope in that regard.

76 pages of dissatisfied feedback and no changes, since the trait system “overhaul” = I’m pretty sure they stopped paying attention to player feedback on this, constructive or otherwise.

Just have to stop in and say that I remain angry about trait changes + other things, which I seem to mention every… few… weeks. Whoops. Not sure if sorry at all.
And now I’m getting more restless every moment since there is that big announcement in few days and all I can think about is traits and NPE. I wonder what will happen, if anything actually will. It has been way long. Way.
Some hype is there for me, just not sure if in any positive way.

I’m going to watch the event if i can from home, but I can honestly say i am not enthused. This actually saddens me a bit that I cannot even be excited about this “unveiling” because I’ve been so soured against the game.

PookieDaWombat.6209:

I can promise you that if Anet did link any fix to the trait system to the new content and made that content paid while leaving those that don’t pay for it in limbo that I would not only walk away from the game, but i’d walk away from Anet. Such an idea would be so ill conceived and ill received that it would sink them, so I cannot fathom them actually doing that.

Not to mention that it would actually be harder for them to maintain two trait systems at the same time. I seriously doubt they would do that.

PookieDaWombat.6209:

Now, the change could be a good one. It could be great even if they have seriously taken what we’ve said in here to heart, unfortunately their track record thus far doesn’t instill much hope in that regard.

I didn’t realize we were members of the Anet Board of Directors. If that’s the case; you’re right. All changes or lack of changes should indeed be approved by us first!

nGumball.1283:

As many people hate Blizzard’s design decisions. While you are sitting here praising WoW and asking Anet to learn from them, many WoW players ask Blizzard to do the same.

No one has a monopoly on good ideas. While the over-emphasis on raiding drove me away from WoW, I still think it does many things much better than ArenaNet. Their in-game raid frames, while not ideal, would be a huge improvement in GW2 over the non-existent frames that are noticeably missing when joining a squad. They also forgot to put casting bars in their game, even though GW1 was very reliant on them. WoW’s move towards a fixed skill system was also a good move, IMHO. They also removed trainers from the game completely, making skill acquisition completely automatic. They actually include catch-up mechanics so that new and returning players aren’t completely shut out of current content for more than a couple of weeks. I still think GW2 is a better fit for me when all is said and done, but I have to admit that I miss some aspects of WoW.

SpyderBite.6274:

PookieDaWombat.6209:

Now, the change could be a good one. It could be great even if they have seriously taken what we’ve said in here to heart, unfortunately their track record thus far doesn’t instill much hope in that regard.

I didn’t realize we were members of the Anet Board of Directors. If that’s the case; you’re right. All changes or lack of changes should indeed be approved by us first!

No, we’re just the consumers that keep the game afloat and have time and time again shown that we are a valuable part of the development process. If we weren’t there would never have been BETA weekend anythings, or even a forum for us to give feedback on the issues in game. If they really wanted to operate entirely in a vacuum and completely ignore the things their player base find in error with their game, they are free to do so to their detriment.

A restaurant that serves bad food and doesn’t take critic and diner reviews to heart will go out of business, as will any business that caters to a consuming public. About the only industries safe from such things are those that provide an inherent need, like long range travel (airlines, etc).

So, while your attempt at snark does not go unnoticed, it also goes wide of hitting the mark. If Anet moves ahead on another trait update without at least letting us weigh in ahead of time on it and possibly get a feel for what they have in mind to roll out and giving themselves enough time to take any suggestions into consideration, they might be faced with a bigger quagmire than the original trait update which is NOT what you want to happen right before a potential major release of content.

SpyderBite.6274:

PookieDaWombat.6209:

Now, the change could be a good one. It could be great even if they have seriously taken what we’ve said in here to heart, unfortunately their track record thus far doesn’t instill much hope in that regard.

I didn’t realize we were members of the Anet Board of Directors. If that’s the case; you’re right. All changes or lack of changes should indeed be approved by us first!

Well, nice snarky comment, but not sure what the point of it is. To respond, however, no we aren’t Anet’s Directors. We can’t force Anet to listen to us and respond to us, either through communication or action. HOWEVER, it is in their best interest to do so.

This is for several reasons

1) On past experiences, whenever a huge change or addition is announced, and the facts are known (as opposed to certain times when we only got half the story, such as the change focused on in this thread), the community has almost infallibly pointed out every issue that may cause a problem before the implementation. The early issues with the Megaserver were all suggested before implementation occured, for example. The community as a whole has proved itself time and again that it can detect most of the potential issues. Why not use that as a resource for better quality assurance?

2) On those occasions where we were largely in the dark until release, and the feature had clear flaws, the community went ballistic. The change to the gem/gold exchange interface for example. That was an eruption of pure fury at the change, and while I believe it isn’t as good as a system as it was before even now, Anet did change it in response after the release. Surely the time to make a change is before the release in response to the feedback. You get all the quality feedback without the rage. makes it a happier experience for everyone. Although with this issue, I hold to the view that Anet only indirectly listened to us in the end – it was only when the gaming sites got involved and their wider rep was under threat that they moved, a view I feel is supported by the fact the gaming sites got word from Anet about their change of stance long before us players, the ones with the grievance, got it. We learned the change of heart, word for word, from the sites, and not Anet themselves. Ultimately, better to avoid such a standoff where possible.

3) This one i feel is the real heart of it. We are the customers. Ok, we aren’t the directors and don’t have the sway they do, but without the players, there is no game, and no pay cheque for any Anet employee. Without us buying and supporting the game, there is no need for devs, directors or anyone else.

Point is, we can’t force Anet to listen to us, or respond to us, or change things in response to our feedback. But for the continued prosperity of Anet and everyone involved, it is in their best interests to bear us in mind. As a community, we aren’t always in agreement, and so some will feel a little pushed out at times, but it is certainly not a good idea to totally ignore the playerbase.

SpyderBite.6274:

PookieDaWombat.6209:

Now, the change could be a good one. It could be great even if they have seriously taken what we’ve said in here to heart, unfortunately their track record thus far doesn’t instill much hope in that regard.

I didn’t realize we were members of the Anet Board of Directors. If that’s the case; you’re right. All changes or lack of changes should indeed be approved by us first!

We may not be on the Anet Board of Directors, however, Devs and Gaile have repeatedly come in to say how much they “value our input,” how our suggestions are so good, and to keep cranking them out.

If none of our suggestions make it into the next incarnation of the trait system, assuming that there is a next incarnation, that would show all the Dev platitudes and praise to be lies… which is what I believe.

You obviously came in here simply to be nasty because, if you had been in this from, say, page 30, you would know this already.

Gregori.5807:

We may not be on the Anet Board of Directors, however, Devs and Gaile have repeatedly come in to say how much they “value our input,” how our suggestions are so good, and to keep cranking them out.

If none of our suggestions make it into the next incarnation of the trait system, assuming that there is a next incarnation, that would show all the Dev platitudes and praise to be lies… which is what I believe.

There’s valuing our input without actually giving in to demands or using every/any suggestion which is come up with . . . just because they “value our input”.

Please tell me that’s understandable.

You obviously came in here simply to be nasty because, if you had been in this from, say, page 30, you would know this already.

Honestly, that is how the post came off but . . . there is a point. Snarkily and sarcastically delivered, but a point. They are not beholden to us to do what we demand, they are beholden to other people and/or other concerns. As much as they might want to do something everyone would cheer over (free precursors for everyone!) . . . there’s reasons why they don’t.

That said, they really do need to do something about traits or show something as a means of saying ‘yes, there’s effort put into working on this’ if there’s no fix announcement.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Gregori.5807:

We may not be on the Anet Board of Directors, however, Devs and Gaile have repeatedly come in to say how much they “value our input,” how our suggestions are so good, and to keep cranking them out.

If none of our suggestions make it into the next incarnation of the trait system, assuming that there is a next incarnation, that would show all the Dev platitudes and praise to be lies… which is what I believe.

There’s valuing our input without actually giving in to demands or using every/any suggestion which is come up with . . . just because they “value our input”.

Please tell me that’s understandable.

Considering the variety of suggestions in this thread, if there is nothing resembling what we have suggested, I will call the Dev’s posts platitudes and lies. But then, I believe that the dev postings have been to keep us quiet by putting us on a hamster wheel while uttering vague “calming” platitudes. Instead of putting us on this specific hamster wheel, they could have told us that, yes, these are good suggestions but not the way we want to head, try thinking in another direction. If they did that before making changes unrelated to anything we had said, I would not hold my current opinion.

If they make a change that has no resemblance to the suggestions here but is good, I will offer them heartfelt thanks. However, that will not change my opinion of the purpose and contents of this thread.

I also have not left the game and, in fact, have played most of today. My hatred of the trait system does not include hatred of the game or the devs, as my posts outside of this (and other trait threads) shows.

The guy I quoted had a valid point. However, there are ways to deliver one’s point. The guy chose to be a… jerk… about it. I don’t respond well to people who choose to be jerks, and it is a choice.

The way Anet releases new updates is comparable to a gamble. They say they can’t reveal what they have in the works because failing to deliver will cause angry players coming at them with torches. On the other hand, once they announce the updates they can only hope we like it. Therefore, here we are in the forums either with smiley faces or pages upon pages of suggested changes.

Wasn’t it said that, don’t fix something not broken? For the old trait system, it was working fine. The new grandmaster traits could’ve just been added in a new manual. Following the previous manual prices: manual #1 = 10s, #2 = 1g, #3 = 2g, #4 = 3g. Affordable and obtainable in the reasonable sense.

Perhaps, new elite skills could use this system of going out and completing a task to unlock. This would fall in line with the aforementioned system of how GW1 worked by capturing elite skills. Correct me if I’m wrong as I haven’t played GW1.

BentoDetective.6491:

The way Anet releases new updates is comparable to a gamble. They say they can’t reveal what they have in the works because failing to deliver will cause angry players coming at them with torches. On the other hand, once they announce the updates they can only hope we like it. Therefore, here we are in the forums either with smiley faces or pages upon pages of suggested changes.

Wasn’t it said that, don’t fix something not broken? For the old trait system, it was working fine. The new grandmaster traits could’ve just been added in a new manual. Following the previous manual prices: manual #1 = 10s, #2 = 1g, #3 = 2g, #4 = 3g. Affordable and obtainable in the reasonable sense.

Perhaps, new elite skills could use this system of going out and completing a task to unlock. This would fall in line with the aforementioned system of how GW1 worked by capturing elite skills. Correct me if I’m wrong as I haven’t played GW1.

You’re right. But the difference is that GW1 elite skills are very important to your build and often plays a key role (like Necro Flesh Golem). Whereas the elite skills in GW2 are 90% kitten so I don’t think anyone will hunt skills like Basilisk Venom for example.

yasb.6592:

BentoDetective.6491:

The way Anet releases new updates is comparable to a gamble. They say they can’t reveal what they have in the works because failing to deliver will cause angry players coming at them with torches. On the other hand, once they announce the updates they can only hope we like it. Therefore, here we are in the forums either with smiley faces or pages upon pages of suggested changes.

Wasn’t it said that, don’t fix something not broken? For the old trait system, it was working fine. The new grandmaster traits could’ve just been added in a new manual. Following the previous manual prices: manual #1 = 10s, #2 = 1g, #3 = 2g, #4 = 3g. Affordable and obtainable in the reasonable sense.

Perhaps, new elite skills could use this system of going out and completing a task to unlock. This would fall in line with the aforementioned system of how GW1 worked by capturing elite skills. Correct me if I’m wrong as I haven’t played GW1.

You’re right. But the difference is that GW1 elite skills are very important to your build and often plays a key role (like Necro Flesh Golem). Whereas the elite skills in GW2 are 90% kitten so I don’t think anyone will hunt skills like Basilisk Venom for example.

. . . my ranger didn’t have his elite skill be very important to his build, it was instead very important to what he was doing at the time. Broad Head Arrow was usually my skill of choice – it made it real easy to shut down PvE casters when I H/H’d . . . and it also was a nice asset when I was grouping since I could shut down a secondary target.

(Usually the caster damaging the party as they spiked the healer. Or the other way around.)

If I wanted something more damaging? Burning Arrow.

But it never defined my build, it was just an extension of my build. Heck, more than once I would go out without an Elite just to prove I could.

I’m not a big GW1 player, but to me there are two big differences:

1) The low level cap meant that skill hunting was part of an extended growing process that starts very early on. GW2’s 80 levels are different, and aren’t really enjoyable without the traits (especially with the NPE).

2) GW1 builds had maybe one elite skill, not a required seven. If we only had to go out and hunt one single trait per build, then it might not feel as much of a grind. (though, as ever, account unlocks would still be much, much, better)

I’m far more accepting of change than at least 90% of players, but I’ve found that I’m included in the universal derision of the trait system.

When I first heard about the changes, I was all for it. It sounded like something similar to GW1, where you went around the world hunting specific bosses for their Elites. But the actual implementation was absolutely horrible. Almost none of the unlock conditions were at all related to the traits they unlocked, and considering they were all the same conditions for each class, any relation between unlock condition and trait seems to be strictly coincidental.

Unlocking early traits is especially unrewarding, ESPECIALLY to new players. Honestly, couldn’t you have at least kept half of the Adept traits unlocked automatically? The current system is not conducive to the kind of experimentation beginners need and reeks of this priority the designers have of “getting players to do more different things in the game.” Making an important structure of the game suffer just to make us “get up and do different things” is abhorrent.

A new player gets their second trait point at level 36. Let’s say we can live with that. This means they should start their trait experimenting at level 36. Now let’s look at what someone can reasonably unlock at level 36. That’s a total of 16 traits. Sounds good, right? But wait: at that tier, you only have access to traits I-VI, so let’s remove any traits higher than VI. That leaves you with 11 traits you can experiment with after unlocking them. Of those 11 traits, 3 are Edge of the Mists, 1 is completing the Obsidian Sanctum (the difficulty of which can vary WILDLY), 1 is a world boss that is prone to bugging, and 2 are group events. So a new player can only reasonably unlock and experiment with a whopping FOUR traits on their own as soon as they gain the ability to IF they don’t resort to buying guides.

Yes, it’s good to teach players to try new things. But it’s also good to present them with REASONABLE LEARNING CURVES and to PROMOTE EXPERIMENTATION AND DIVERSITY. The ridiculous trait unlock system practically encourages new players to pick and choose which traits they think will be useful and ignore the rest. It’s utterly counterproductive to build diversity and I won’t stand for that.

i DO want to hear from them about a change, i DON’T want them to talk about it again.
every single post from a dev in this thread it’s always “we have brought it up” this and “we have talked about it” that.
i can talk about it just as much, that doesn’t mean something is happening
stop talking about it and actually do something, i really don’t want to hear anything less then “we have listed all the possible solutions and are testing them one at a time”.

A personal discontent I have with the Warrior traits “Berserker’s Power” and “Heightened Focus”…

They encourage warriors to not use their adrenaline abilities, effectively diminishing gameplay elements. What’s the point of having adrenaline abilities when it’s literally a massive DPS loss to use them? I’d like to see these traits either reworked or removed.

Perhaps it could be reworked to give the warrior a five or ten second buff that increases their damage/crit chance by 5/10/15% based on their level of adrenaline when their adrenaline ability was used?

Don’t make traits that effectively remove gameplay elements of a class!

What’s disappointing to me is they haven’t said that they will change it. They haven’t said “we’re considering this or that idea, what do you think?”
They haven’t even agreed that the current trait system is a problem.

So I’m not hopeful that they’ll fix it.

this is what should happen to the current trait system

Taygus.4571:

What’s disappointing to me is they haven’t said that they will change it. They haven’t said “we’re considering this or that idea, what do you think?”
They haven’t even agreed that the current trait system is a problem.

So I’m not hopeful that they’ll fix it.

Maybe they just don’t want our money anymore.

Is there even a thread with more replies and views? Its really ridiculous.

As a long time casual player of gw1 and then gw2

I’d have to say i HATE the new trait system, i have 3 80’s characters already , and when making a new char, i want to learn and unlock everything right away about that class because that’s where the FUN begins. I have 3 chars, i learned the game, i grinded, i farmed, i’m well off in gold, i got the hang of the game and the “system” the “meta” , etcetera, i PAID my noobie dues. I just want to skip that junk content and get to the advance stuff, but now it’s not exciting anymore, it’s tedious. Boring.

But you game maker guys gotta suddenly with no warning or reason and add tons of boring crap obstacles in front of my traits and prevent me from HAVING MY FUN? Why in the world…. tell us your train of thought. answer us!

spend my gold and skill points on previously-free traits? for a lack of better word… screw you guys, just cause you couldn’t think of a better use for those useless source of currency? Am i wrong? no? i don’t care b/c you didn’t tell us y the change happened and this is what my assumption is because thats how it looks like through your actions.

While we’re on the topic of traits i just wanted to bring out that a lot of traits and skills are useless/overshadowed by others and arent worth even considering to be used, please don’t do those lil pansy buffs and hope it makes a difference into convincing people to use it, and do some mor significant changes to them so people actually feel bad for not trying them out.

PS i love this game, thanks for making this game.
Your’s truly, gw2 concerned citizen.

At this point, with this many pages, there’s not much left to be said except to wait for Anet’s response. Even rolling back to the old system would not be a bad idea when you have something like the current trait system to compare with. I would just like to stress to Anet that simplicity is not to be taken for granted. The 1st trait system offered it to us, simple and reasonable.

Whoever came up with the new trait system should either be fired or demoted. I would like to know how the new trait system is supposed to be better than the old one (with the exception of the new re-traiting function).

All the posts in this thread has provided a rough blueprint for a better trait system. Suggestions and ideas that came from players that care. I’m sure most of us here aren’t professional game programmers/designers, but here we are banding together to salvage a part of the game that is severely damaged.

BentoDetective.6491:

At this point, with this many pages, there’s not much left to be said except to wait for Anet’s response. Even rolling back to the old system would not be a bad idea when you have something like the current trait system to compare with. I would just like to stress to Anet that simplicity is not to be taken for granted. The 1st trait system offered it to us, simple and reasonable.

Whoever came up with the new trait system should either be fired or demoted. I would like to know how the new trait system is supposed to be better than the old one (with the exception of the new re-traiting function).

All the posts in this thread has provided a rough blueprint for a better trait system. Suggestions and ideas that came from players that care. I’m sure most of us here aren’t professional game programmers/designers, but here we are banding together to salvage a part of the game that is severely damaged.

“wait for their response”?????????/
what response?

“Could I buy them? Certainly. But it is not something a new player could do. Even if the cash isn’t a barrier at that level, the skill point cost certainly is.”

And this is why you can buy gems with RL cash and convert them to gold. THAT’S what ANet wants you to do. They don’t have a sub fee, they have an ingame shop- they WANT you to spend RL cash on things they’ve gated.

Allelya.6830:

“Could I buy them? Certainly. But it is not something a new player could do. Even if the cash isn’t a barrier at that level, the skill point cost certainly is.”

And this is why you can buy gems with RL cash and convert them to gold. THAT’S what ANet wants you to do. They don’t have a sub fee, they have an ingame shop- they WANT you to spend RL cash on things they’ve gated.

I’ll spend cash on miniatures and armour and convenience items..but not gold. I will not spend cash on gold.

Tbh the real thing that bothers me with this, is how awkward some of the unlocks are. And I think if it unlocks on one character it should be unlock on all and all future characters, it only puts me off buying character slots in the future. (I currently have 1 spare..and all my chars created after this trait change are low level. )

but repeating the same “quests” to unlock traits..no thanks..and paying cash for them…definitely not..you already have to pay cash for an extra slot.

I’m hoping that at tomorrow’s panel they say SOMETHING about the Traits system and not just use it to talk about HoT and their “vision” for GW2.

I recently leveled a new character. I’m glad I was grandfathered in on my last one. This one was meh.

I certainly preferred getting a point every level, but gaining the traits and leveling wasn’t awful. I do however really dislike them being locked behind whatever.
I would much rather have it like spvp currently does. All “core” traits unlocked naturally (or even introduce a few per line per few levels), and pay or do whatever for the newly added GM’s. Hopefully add new traits for other slots. Treat them the same.

I do dislike lowering difficulty in lower areas. It wasn’t that bad when I was new a little after release. Orr events and density was a little much.

A positive side effect was removal of low level champ trains.

Overall I hope they just return what we had, and add more with this New system they’ve thought up.

Galphar.3901:

I’m hoping that at tomorrow’s panel they say SOMETHING about the Traits system and not just use it to talk about HoT and their “vision” for GW2.

I’m not even that hopeful.

Not anymore at least.

I just want them to say and DO something (hopefully with our input before going live with it) and well enough before anything HoT related goes live.

Hey people mind quoting this post and explaining why you like the change to the trait system for low levels?

Don’t feel like going through thousands of post against the change. I just want to know he other side of the situation.

Taygus.4571:

What’s disappointing to me is they haven’t said that they will change it. They haven’t said “we’re considering this or that idea, what do you think?”
They haven’t even agreed that the current trait system is a problem.

So I’m not hopeful that they’ll fix it.

Part of their problem is they’re not actually allowed to do what you’re asking, discuss plans with players before final implementation. Supposedly, if they come in this thread and say “we’re considering options X, Y, and Z, what do you think?” then everybody on the forums will get unrealistic expectations and throw mass tantrums when every last detail of X, Y, and Z is not included in the eventual solution, so clearly the only solution is to forbid all substantial communication.

It’s depressing, because I look at the forums for other MMOs I play and see devs having reasonable conversations with players – discussing proposed changes, what the goals are, and how best to reach them – and those games really don’t have better forum communities than this one. They just have companies that understand the concept of managing player expectations.

Knighthonor.4061:

Hey people mind quoting this post and explaining why you like the change to the trait system for low levels?

Don’t feel like going through thousands of post against the change. I just want to know he other side of the situation.

I don’t like it, but here’s the summary based on the defenders I’ve seen in this thread:

1. Having trait unlocks all over the game world makes you get out there and explore, so you experience more of the actual content and maybe even learn to like activities you wouldn’t have touched if you hadn’t been pushed into them.
2. Having a list of stuff to do to unlock your traits gives you long-term goals to work for, so you don’t get bored and quit too soon.
3. Stop expecting the game to hand you everything on a silver platter, you need to get to work and earn your fun!

Baolun.8316:

Knighthonor.4061:

Hey people mind quoting this post and explaining why you like the change to the trait system for low levels?

Don’t feel like going through thousands of post against the change. I just want to know he other side of the situation.

I don’t like it, but here’s the summary based on the defenders I’ve seen in this thread:

1. Having trait unlocks all over the game world makes you get out there and explore, so you experience more of the actual content and maybe even learn to like activities you wouldn’t have touched if you hadn’t been pushed into them.
2. Having a list of stuff to do to unlock your traits gives you long-term goals to work for, so you don’t get bored and quit too soon.
3. Stop expecting the game to hand you everything on a silver platter, you need to get to work and earn your fun!

These 3 reasons sound good on paper, but it’s not what’s happening.

In regards to the 1st reason: we’re, in a way, being forced to go out and explore. Otherwise, our character would be incomplete. Traits are very important to any profession. I completed all the maps 100%, twice. As a bit of a completionist, I chose to do so out of my own accord.

2nd reason: ironically, gathering the traits gets boring and tedious. Long-term goals become long-term chores list. The change is obviously over-the-top. This thread isn’t composed of messages of love for the new system.

3rd reason: The previous system uses 3 manuals to unlock each tier of the traits. With the grand total of 03g10s, it was less to work towards. But, it allowed players to earn it within a small timeframe. Thus, allows players to start experimenting with traits to further evolve their profession’s uniqueness and power.

Stated above are my opinion, so I hope all to bare with me if I have made any mistakes or misinterpretations.

Knighthonor.4061:

Hey people mind quoting this post and explaining why you like the change to the trait system for low levels?

Don’t feel like going through thousands of post against the change. I just want to know he other side of the situation.

As others have just mentioned above me, there are very few and very flawed reasons for liking this Trait update. Fact is, if it was well liked by the community this thread wouldn’t even be here.

IMO this trait change has only ONE good thing for new players, and that is if you have NO toons and are your first one, it might** Make game play your first time through more fun. MIGHT. Since we’ve already had a few new players also chime in to the contrary however, its more obvious that the system as it stands is broken and needs fixing.

No mention in the livestream about traits… but like I said some pages back, With a new profession and the majority of players being exposed to the trait changes there will be a lot more comments in this thread. I do believe we’ll see changes before the expansion goes live.

Infernia.9847:

No mention in the livestream about traits… but like I said some pages back, With a new profession and the majority of players being exposed to the trait changes there will be a lot more comments in this thread. I do believe we’ll see changes before the expansion goes live.

I can’t imagine they’ll leave the trait system untouched, knowing that everyone’s going to be rolling the new profession. Then again, they’ll already have the money from the xpac sales, so…

Guhracie.3419:

Infernia.9847:

No mention in the livestream about traits… but like I said some pages back, With a new profession and the majority of players being exposed to the trait changes there will be a lot more comments in this thread. I do believe we’ll see changes before the expansion goes live.

I can’t imagine they’ll leave the trait system untouched, knowing that everyone’s going to be rolling the new profession. Then again, they’ll already have the money from the xpac sales, so…

Actually, there is one thing here that is pertinent:

Their mention of the mastery stuff. Basically they described something that could be very trait like BUT they explicitly said it would be account bound and not toon bound so it seems like they listened to some things we said in here, but applied it to something completely new in the game.

I just hope they come back and apply that same thinking to the traits as well since they are obviously able to do it.

I was hoping the big announcement would mention traits. I was ready to give them money for a new account, ready to make new alts, buy skins, etc. Without a fix to traits though, I will not make any new characters.

Yep, well, I know how you feel. I will also refrain from being amped about these things until the problems are fixed.

PookieDaWombat.6209:

Guhracie.3419:

Infernia.9847:

No mention in the livestream about traits… but like I said some pages back, With a new profession and the majority of players being exposed to the trait changes there will be a lot more comments in this thread. I do believe we’ll see changes before the expansion goes live.

I can’t imagine they’ll leave the trait system untouched, knowing that everyone’s going to be rolling the new profession. Then again, they’ll already have the money from the xpac sales, so…

Actually, there is one thing here that is pertinent:

Their mention of the mastery stuff. Basically they described something that could be very trait like BUT they explicitly said it would be account bound and not toon bound so it seems like they listened to some things we said in here, but applied it to something completely new in the game.

I just hope they come back and apply that same thinking to the traits as well since they are obviously able to do it.

I’d be fine with them making traits so that if you unlock a trait once you get a big discount for that trait when buying it from a trainer. Or even if you have unlocked all traits you can then get the old trait books for the old price.

Actually, at this point, I’d rather they just account unlock them for accounts that already have at least one fully traited alt.

They already tipped their hand to show that they CAN do it and WILL be doing it regarding the new masteries so they can get on making them account unlocks and just moving on from this particular quagmire.

I’m done giving more suggestions. This is the only one I will endorse now that i know their plans for the mastery system. Its the only solution that makes sense, is fair, and is easiest to implement for veterans while still giving new players something to work towards.

PookieDaWombat.6209:

Guhracie.3419:

Infernia.9847:

No mention in the livestream about traits… but like I said some pages back, With a new profession and the majority of players being exposed to the trait changes there will be a lot more comments in this thread. I do believe we’ll see changes before the expansion goes live.

I can’t imagine they’ll leave the trait system untouched, knowing that everyone’s going to be rolling the new profession. Then again, they’ll already have the money from the xpac sales, so…

Actually, there is one thing here that is pertinent:

Their mention of the mastery stuff. Basically they described something that could be very trait like BUT they explicitly said it would be account bound and not toon bound so it seems like they listened to some things we said in here, but applied it to something completely new in the game.

I just hope they come back and apply that same thinking to the traits as well since they are obviously able to do it.

I saw this and thought, “What a perfect segue to mentioning a change to traits.”
It just didn’t happen. BUT I was hoping really hard that he would say it.

I will remain tentatively hopeful. I really want to create a new character or two with the new profession. However the moment I think about acquiring the traits on two of them I will simply decline. I’ll work on the mastery of my level 80’s instead.

I am sure they know the majority of players that are unfamiliar with the current trait system, will have a bit of a shock when they experience it. Some will not mind as they only plan to level a single character and have their traits mapped out in advance. Yet, I simply can’t believe there won’t be an outcry because finding the meta build on a new profession will require most of the traits unlocked for experimentation purposes. And that is my hope for this system.

Okay, firstly, the HoT stuff has made me a happy customer, so this isn’t a complaint. However, I would really love to make a new character to prep for it, so if we could PLEEEEAAAASE get the traits fixed I will buy a slot immediately!

I wrote a post in another threat as a joke/hopeless dreams a while ago, but now I think it is pretty much what I would insist.

About what it would take people to make a new character, mine:

The new low level experience must completely go. In fact, now that I am greedy, utility skill slots need to all be available from level 1.
All equipment slot should have available items as well. In addition of being greedy I am also very, very vain. I have not forgotten you, beta weekend hat… Or was it shoulder armor? Well, I haven’t forgotten!

Speaking of utility skills… these can’t be locked behind tiers. And I must be able to redo them for my existing characters, I dislike having to take skills I don’t want. Or even more when the game decides one for me like seems to be the case recently.

Traits must be available as easily as they used to, or vendor price needs to be way cheaper and without use of skill points, trait reset must remain free.

And as I still will not buy character slots due to several other reasons why I am unhappy, I must be gifted some for each of my accounts. Yes, still greedy.

That is what it would take.

I don’t know about that new character progression, I’d need to see more and let it sink in.
But as I haven’t liked Arenanet’s take on character progression (there are reasons why I don’t really like MMORPGs and it’s on some level related to all this) in the past and will not magically become to like it I will not buy this expansion. The old things are still in the way.

Progression. “Sense of progression” or “Character progression”… This progression is my most dreaded word when it comes to GW2. Ever since tiered util—-

/flees

I’m curious though. How is the new profession going to get its traits? Will it still need to get level to 80 in the base game and get the traits there or will it start out in the new area and level/get traits there?