Guild Wars 2

As it currently sits, GW2 (I’m only discussing PvE here) allows a glass-cannon strategy. What I mean by that is that you can put all your optional attribute points into things that do damage. Against smaller mobs, you end up killing the enemy before it can kill you. Against larger mobs, the character begins to have problems.

Against bosses and very large mobs, though, glass-cannons become an exploit. The GC charges in, deals a large amount of damage, dies, and then waypoints and runs back to combat to repeat the process.

IMO, this is an exploit. Do you agree? Why or why not? Also, if you agree, what should be done about it?

NOTE: Please don’t argue whether this actually works or not. Most everybody’s mind is already made up on that; that’s quite obvious from many other threads. Please stick with the more philosophical question of whether it SHOULD work or not.

Daddicus.6128:

Against bosses and very large mobs, though, glass-cannons become an exploit. The GC charges in, deals a large amount of damage, the boss dies.

There, fixed that for you. Even as a glass cannon, it’s fairly easy to stay alive and not have to run back.

Well, according to Wiktionary, an exploint is a program or technique that takes advantage of a vulnerability in other software. So in order to answer your question, we must first answer my question: is what you just described a vulnerability in GW2’s software? If the answer to my question is “yes,” then so is the answer to yours.

Daddicus.6128:

NOTE: Please don’t argue whether this actually works or not. Most everybody’s mind is already made up on that; that’s quite obvious from many other threads. Please stick with the more philosophical question of whether it SHOULD work or not.

But it DOESN’T work, and that’s why it’s not an exploit.

Yes, they can do a lot of damage quickly, but while they’re dead and/or running back from waypoint, they’re doing 0 damage. Someone with a more moderate build that can stay alive will do more damage in the long run.

If you have others keeping them alive or reviving them, then that reduces the damage output of those others as well, again coming in second to a more moderate build that can keep itself alive.

Finally, as has been pointed out, a lot of people play GC and manage to stay alive even in big boss fights. Here it’s a risk vs reward situation. The risk is dying in one hit, the reward is greater damage output. Those that can survive the risk earn the reward.

A mob will reset as I’m sure you know, but in a group setting? Ya its not efficient. However, if you do that enough times you eventually stop making the errors that get you killed. Do note glass cannons make up for lost passive defense stats (toughness/vita/healing) with protection, shadowsteps, evades, soft cc, hard cc, and so on.

The ultimate goal of many games is maximum offense with minimum defense.

If you have a group of people chain graveyarding then ya its borderline exploit. Once upon a time this was a thing in dungeons that anet finnaly put a halt to with no more wp while party members were still in combat. Hence the letters OOC.

Did you just ask us not to argue with your premise? xD

You’ll need to explain how respawning and moving to where you died is an exploit a bit more..

Most people using high damage setups don’t use this “strategy,” for 1 it would require the mob to be near a WP, have a long duration Condition on it or be being attacked by multiple people. Also its just really inefficient.

To exploit is to abuse a bug/something not intended. It doesn’t matter what type of gear the player is wearing, bad players are going to die and some of them are going to waypoint and run back. When ArenaNet doesn’t want to support that, they disable the ability to waypoint, like in instanced group content.

Don’t expect it to ever change in the open world because it wouldn’t be fun, plus ArenaNet themselves have told dead people to waypoint and run back when showing off Tequatl. If you couldn’t waypoint, everyone else would be expected to revive dead players, which continue to scale up the event. On the other side, not being revived and having no options would create a boring and anti-casual experience.

It has already changed however when it comes to the living story. You can death rush bosses in season 2 for example, but not in HoT. Back in season 2, bad players, not even in glass gear, were complaining about how often they died, which created a “tedious” experience. They never bothered to learn the mechanics and instead death rushed it. For comparison, in HoT, I can’t beat …, being useless …, etc.

This is not even remotely close to an exploit. What you’re saying is akin to calling a bunker build that does almost no damage an exploit because it is very hard to kill. Every build choice comes with sacrifices and benefits. For fast kills, you sacrifice defensive capabilities. For high defensive capabilities, you sacrifice fast kills. For a hybrid, you sacrifice a little of both survivability and dps.

No, it’s not an exploit. Advantage? maybe. Exploit, no.

Just because someone else plays in a manner that you don’t approve of doesn’t mean it’s an exploit.
If it’s really about PvE (which I am questioning), you need to simply accept that there are game mechanics that don’t follow your own personal rules, but are just fine by Anets.

One thing that I forget to mention, Anet seems to like to ban exploiters, and since the glass cannon meta is at least two years old, seeing that there was no mass bannings of people who do the so called “glass cannon exploit,” I’d say that it’s not an exploit.

Palador.2170:

But it DOESN’T work, and that’s why it’s not an exploit.

The vast majority of posters here disagree with you. They’re the ones who say “when fully dead, waypoint out and run back”. And, they claim to have all kinds of data to support that argument.

I don’t agree with them, but this thread is to determine whether, if it DOES work, SHOULD it work?

NOTE: There are people who won’t rez dead people because of this effect. So, there’s a very real effect in-game, regardless of whether it is true or not.

Playing the game as intended is not an exploit.

Sorry, please go learn what constitutes an exploit.

Coulter.2315:

Did you just ask us not to argue with your premise? xD

You’ll need to explain how respawning and moving to where you died is an exploit a bit more..

Most people using high damage setups don’t use this “strategy,” for 1 it would require the mob to be near a WP, have a long duration Condition on it or be being attacked by multiple people. Also its just really inefficient.

I see it all the time. In almost every large battle, there’s always a few people saying, “fully dead: waypoint!”, frequently in all capital letters.

They do this because the claim is that the dead person counts against the scaling, but as soon as the dead person WPs out, the creature scales down to the now-smaller number of characters. IF they are correct, then we’re in what I call an exploit.

Neural.1824:

No, it’s not an exploit. Advantage? maybe. Exploit, no.

Just because someone else plays in a manner that you don’t approve of doesn’t mean it’s an exploit.
If it’s really about PvE (which I am questioning), you need to simply accept that there are game mechanics that don’t follow your own personal rules, but are just fine by Anets.

I used to think that to be the case. However, ANet, in the most recent patches, made reviving people in combat grant progress against that creature/event. So, clearly they are pointing people in the direction of “revive your allies”, rather than, “tell them to waypoint out and save us all the trouble of reviving them”.

Daddicus.6128:

They do this because the claim is that the dead person counts against the scaling, but as soon as the dead person WPs out, the creature scales down to the now-smaller number of characters. IF they are correct, then we’re in what I call an exploit.

TIL: The built in mechanic of dynamic mobs scaling is an exploit.

I won’t treat you like an idiot, but I will agree with the people who say this is clearly not an exploit. It’s playing as the game was designed – it’s been this way since the beginning, and if it was not acceptable to the developers, something would have been done by now to prevent the behavior (such as preventing waypointing to nearby waypoints, for example).

polarbear.2497:

I won’t treat you like an idiot, but I will agree with the people who say this is clearly not an exploit. It’s playing as the game was designed – it’s been this way since the beginning, and if it was not acceptable to the developers, something would have been done by now to prevent the behavior (such as preventing waypointing to nearby waypoints, for example).

Thank you.

But, they did. See my post above on the most recent balance update (giving credit for reviving people), plus another person’s post on ANet’s fix in dungeons (which prevents waypointing in combat).

Daddicus.6128:

Coulter.2315:

Did you just ask us not to argue with your premise? xD

You’ll need to explain how respawning and moving to where you died is an exploit a bit more..

Most people using high damage setups don’t use this “strategy,” for 1 it would require the mob to be near a WP, have a long duration Condition on it or be being attacked by multiple people. Also its just really inefficient.

I see it all the time. In almost every large battle, there’s always a few people saying, “fully dead: waypoint!”, frequently in all capital letters.

They do this because the claim is that the dead person counts against the scaling, but as soon as the dead person WPs out, the creature scales down to the now-smaller number of characters. IF they are correct, then we’re in what I call an exploit.

The scaling doesn’t happen the instant someone dies or comes into battle. It happens every X seconds.

So at Time 0:00 boss spawns Where time is in Minutes:Seconds

Time 0:30 Scaling check happens, no net change in population, no scaling
Time 0:31 Player A Dies (big boss attack that one shots players who aren’t paying attention)
Time 0:315 Player A asks for a res
Time 0:32 Players B and C tell him to waypoint
Time: 0:34 Player A WP’s out (took him a second or two to find the nearest WP on the map)
Time 0:35 Scaling check happens, lower population, population scales down).

So just because the scalling happened right after Player A WP’ed out, doesn’t mean it scaled just because he just WP’ed out. The game finally did a population check for how many are still actively participating in the event.

People ask for players to WP and run back because:

1. The player is in a dangerous spot and would likely get anyone who tried to res him killed.
2. You’re a sitting duck when you’re reviving someone. You can’t dodge, you can’t reapply stealth or wall of reflection or whatever skill you use to negate damage.
3. Prior to this patch, reviving someone did not count one bit towards participation and if the fight is quick enough stopping to revive someone could cost them participation, especially if the person who stops to revive the player arrived late or doesn’t do as much damage as the others around them. This isn’t as big of an issue now that they do allow for support to count toward participation.

Daddicus.6128:

polarbear.2497:

I won’t treat you like an idiot, but I will agree with the people who say this is clearly not an exploit. It’s playing as the game was designed – it’s been this way since the beginning, and if it was not acceptable to the developers, something would have been done by now to prevent the behavior (such as preventing waypointing to nearby waypoints, for example).

Thank you.

But, they did. See my post above on the most recent balance update (giving credit for reviving people), plus another person’s post on ANet’s fix in dungeons (which prevents waypointing in combat).

Most recent. It takes time for information to spread, who knows how many who are saying “WP and run back” have actually read the patch notes and know that reviving someone counts now. Not to mention by now it’s probably a habit for someone to say WP and run back when someone asks for a res mid boss battle. And habits can take a while to break.

Dungeons and open world have different purposes in the game.

Open world is supposed to be a more laid back easy situation where you don’t feel punished for someone else approaching. Not being able to waypoint out if you die is punishing players if someone else approaches. Because you can’t choose to do the world boss alone and keep others from participating.

Dungeons are supposed to be group content that is more challenging than open world. The change to being able to waypoint out of a fight while in dungeons was to keep that difficulty up.

Daddicus.6128:

Coulter.2315:

Did you just ask us not to argue with your premise? xD

You’ll need to explain how respawning and moving to where you died is an exploit a bit more..

Most people using high damage setups don’t use this “strategy,” for 1 it would require the mob to be near a WP, have a long duration Condition on it or be being attacked by multiple people. Also its just really inefficient.

I see it all the time. In almost every large battle, there’s always a few people saying, “fully dead: waypoint!”, frequently in all capital letters.

They are telling people who die to the boss not to wait for a res because its faster and safer for those that are fighting for the corpses to WP and respawn, they are not calling out parts of a exploiting strategy xD

I am genuinely shocked you couldn’t put this together with your own brain (like really shocked, astounded, flabbergasted, jaw-on-the-floor can’t believe it).

Since you think i’m treating you like an idiot for pointing out the obvious let me simplify it for you even more.

What gain is there for dying and running back. Each waypoint cost both time and money. Excessive waypointing can lead to cost above what you would potentially net from killing the boss or a lack of event credit. Therefore it cannot possibly be an exploit per definition of the word.

Now then let me further invalidate your claim. The addition of reviving allies counting toward “credit” does not make your statement about this being an exploit valid, instead it only undermines your intent. If someone is dead, they are not contributing and thus at risk of not getting event credit. So how is dying and waiting for a revive “an exploit” when the only person who would get credit is the person who revives you.

Exploit is when elitists don’t let you join the party because you’re not a glass cannon… :P Okay, it’s not an exploit either. But it’s very disgusting anyway.

In a world where the mobs are real thinking, feeling beings. Yes this is an exploit. Because players have an unfair advantage.

In normal world this does not come close to a definition of an exploit.

Daddicus.6128:

But, they did. See my post above on the most recent balance update (giving credit for reviving people),

this was put in because of the new healer classes. I myself run a Druid, and with my full druid setup, don’t do a lot of dmg, I try to keep ppl alive, either with heals or rez’s.
so they added the rewards for these classes so we still get credit

toughness is an exploit
mobs can’t kill you

cc is an exploit
mobs can’t hit you while cced

offensive support is an exploit
it doubles your damage

…………..

insanemaniac.2456:

toughness is an exploit
mobs can’t kill you

cc is an exploit
mobs can’t hit you while cced

offensive support is an exploit
it doubles your damage

…………..

The op has a point that isn’t so ridiculous as you are trying to spin it.
Graveyarding is not as devs intended and is why you can no longer do this in dungeons.

The solution for open world? Have mobs reset. The players’ solution? Put long condition on mob.

The only thing keeping it from a reasonable accusation of exploiting is I cannot think of an instance where it would even make sense to do it. Also in open world just 1 additional player can keep the mob in combat which is normal play.

The only examples of exploitive I can make up is if 1 player is trying to kill a legendary solo and using long conditions so they can make it back in time after dying. Or 2 players chain attacking the mob where when one dies the other fights as the dead one runs back and then attacks when player 2 is dead. Repeat. But I cannot think of where that’s possible other than lolsand giant but he on timer anyhow.

tl;dr
The only thing keeping it from exploitive behavior is opportunity.

Daddicus.6128:

polarbear.2497:

I won’t treat you like an idiot, but I will agree with the people who say this is clearly not an exploit. It’s playing as the game was designed – it’s been this way since the beginning, and if it was not acceptable to the developers, something would have been done by now to prevent the behavior (such as preventing waypointing to nearby waypoints, for example).

Thank you.

But, they did. See my post above on the most recent balance update (giving credit for reviving people), plus another person’s post on ANet’s fix in dungeons (which prevents waypointing in combat).

So arenanet designed open world events in a different manner than instanced content with fewer players.

Here’s the thing. If they wanted to limit waypointing in open world encoutners, they could. It would be easy to:

- reduce the amount of waypoints or make available waypoints contested
- disallow waypointing while other players nearby are still in combat
- remove contribution from players who waypoint

Now it becomes kind of obvious that these changes would make the game more tedious and a lot less fun in open world scenarios. I guess that is why arenanet hasn’t gone this route.

Instanced content serves a different purpose and thus gets treated differently. The fix to dungeon waypointing was way way way back shortly after release of the game. Also arenanet have stuck to the theme of not allowing infight ressurecting in instanced content for over 3 years (while being fine with it in open world content). I doubt this has been an oversight.

Also what about the people who play in full glasscanon builds and gear and who do not die at all, during any world boss fight? I dare say quite a few people are perfectly able to play this way and hafve no problems.

tl;dr: open world and instanced content are two different beasts which get treated and balanced differently in many respects, which includes waypointing.

Some of these design decisions reach back to the very launch of the game and have been implemented in a similar fashion for over 3-3.5 years now thus we can assume that they are intended.

Daddicus.6128:

They do this because the claim is that the dead person counts against the scaling, but as soon as the dead person WPs out, the creature scales down to the now-smaller number of characters. IF they are correct, then we’re in what I call an exploit.

Events don’t downscale immediately after someone waypoints, it takes a couple of minutes for the change to kick in because it really would be an exploit if people could cheese easy completion by tagging for credit and running away to lower the scaling.

When you’re asked to waypoint when fully dead, you aren’t making the event easier, you’re just not adding to the difficulty because there’s a massive risk involved in rezzing people (you can’t dodge when rezzing and mobs prioritize attacking rezzers); the people at the event are still working on the upscaled event without you contributing DPS, but the difference is you’re not actively taking someone else’s DPS away from the event by forcing them to rez you.

I wouldn’t consider it an exploit any more than dropping a portal before you make a risky jump in a jumping puzzle; you haven’t made anything easier, you’re just trying to limit your frustration.

I’m confused, is your scenario meant to imply that when I die from a encounter I should lay there and wait around for someone to come revive me? My understanding is that when I die, that little message pops up and says “use waypoint” and I do. I play solo alot and do die occasionally, using a waypoint allows me to get back to playing the game.
Perhaps I’m not understanding what you are asking.
As to grouping, I’ve noticed that when we encounter various world mobs the waypoints near the mob are blocked for the duration of the encounter. If its a large group it does make sense to wait for revival, but in some cases to me it makes more sense to run back to the fight from waypoint rather than force group members to stop combat to help me up. Again though, perhaps I’m not understanding your question properly.

There’s also the fact that picking up ice bows and fiery greatswords is a lot more painful when there’s a bunch of dead bodies lying around that you might start ressing by accident.

People calling for dead to wp is simply just because people being dead on the ground are irritating to everyone still alive, and don’t contribute anything. Not because it’s an attempt to game the system in some way.

Cameron.6450:

There’s also the fact that picking up ice bows and fiery greatswords is a lot more painful when there’s a bunch of dead bodies lying around that you might start ressing by accident.

People calling for dead to wp is simply just because people being dead on the ground are irritating to everyone still alive, and don’t contribute anything. Not because it’s an attempt to game the system in some way.

They contribute negatively for getting other downed people killed because I couldn’t res the right person.

Daddicus.6128:

Against bosses and very large mobs, though, glass-cannons become an exploit. The GC charges in, deals a large amount of damage, dies, and then waypoints and runs back to combat to repeat the process.

Why would it be an exploit for a glass character to die, then WP and run back but, since you single out glass gear, it would presumably not be an exploit for a character geared differently? My guess is:

1. You are assuming that event scaling works faster than it actually seems to.
2. You believe that the opportunity cost of wearing glass gear is too low, but don’t want to use math to actually make a real case.
3. You believe that the players dying at large bosses are all (or mostly) glass wearers.

…or some combination of the above.

Before discussion of what should be done about it, perhaps you should clarify why you think this falls under exploit. If any of my guesses are correct, I believe that your case will fall flat.

Btw, if #3 is one of your assumptions… my experience since launch suggests that lack of experience, poor systems or internet connection (and thus inability to recognize tells in time to react) and poor reflexes play a greater part in character defeat than wearing glass gear does.

Khisanth.2948:

They contribute negatively for getting other downed people killed because I couldn’t res the right person.

Well yeah, that’s partly what i meant by irritating, I was just trying to avoid what had already been said by earlier posts.

Bosses that One-shot generally one-shot more than just “Glass Cannons”. A little Toughness or a litte Healing Power won’t save you if you miss the giant killer move tell.

People who drop are running around in everything from Zerker to Carrion to soldier, cavalier, dire or just some juxtaposed mish-mash of whatever they could afford on the TP. Half of those think they can just tank a hit because they run some Toughness in their build and then get a rude awakening when they’re suddenly downed in a Mordrem Sniper’s Arrow Field.

Noone thinks it’s funny to rush in and die. People who play Glass Cannons in open-world PvE play it like that because they know how to, and if they die occasionally due to an unforseen event, missed Dodge call or sudden latency spike, then they’re no more “exploiting” than anyone else who dies.

I don’t think there’s really anything to discuss: if ANet cared about this for open world content, they would have acted to deal with it already. Further, I think the OP has confused the issue by making it about the build, when it’s a technique that is stat-independent.
——————————————————

I’m going to restate the OP’s question, because I don’t accept the premise: this has nothing to do with glass cannon builds. The tactic the OP wants to discuss is sometimes called “death rushing”, in which team members attack a target close to a waypoint and, if they die, they use the WP and return to battle ASAP.

We know ANet’s stance on this from GW1: it was perfectly acceptable (if odd) to use this to level characters in pre-Searing to L20 (I over-simplify the process) and to train pets in post-Searing. We know ANet’s stance on it for dungeons: they prevent it (rather than call it an exploit) by disabling waypoints in instances and take steps to ensure foes reset if the party dies.

We can therefore speculate as to their attitude for open-world content in GW2: they don’t care — if they did, they would make it harder to death rush and increase the penalties. Since they have done so for instances and not for open world, we can presume that it doesn’t matter much to them. Ergo, not an exploit.

The discussion of glass canon builds is a red herring and moot: you can do this regardless of your spec. In fact, I know of guilds using this technique against certain bounties, because they know their members lack the DPS to defeat specific foes any other way.

tl;dr I don’t see an exploit, I’m 99% sure that ANet doesn’t either, and this has nothing to do with glass canon.

Daddicus.6128:

Against bosses and very large mobs, though, glass-cannons become an exploit. The GC charges in, deals a large amount of damage, dies, and then waypoints and runs back to combat to repeat the process.

And non- glass cannons can’t do this?

I see this as a not so cleverly disguised “I hate the zerker meta” thread.

Daddicus.6128:

Against bosses and very large mobs, though, glass-cannons become an exploit. The GC charges in, deals a large amount of damage, dies, and then waypoints and runs back to combat to repeat the process.

Why would anyone want to do this on purpose? Graveyard zergs existed in ARPGs like forever. Most players of Diablo like games have probably done it at least once in the game. But it was never very efficient to do this.

It’s boring and rather mindless. Jump it, pop all cooldowns, die and on the new HoT maps maybe face a minute long walk to get back into the fray. The only spot I can see this work in Verdant Brink at night defending the main rally pts where the waypoint is uncontested.

It’s more of a desperate “die already you stupid mob” thing. If I died almost every time I jumped into the boss zerg I certainly would change my play style. I can’t see how anyone would enjoy this. I bet most of these players are rather frustrated, kind of last resort tactics.

Daddicus.6128:

polarbear.2497:

something would have been done by now to prevent the behavior (such as preventing waypointing to nearby waypoints, for example).

But, they did. See my post above on the most recent balance update (giving credit for reviving people)

No they did not. Giving credit for rezzing does not prevent waypointing or asking the fallen to waypoint.. What it does is give a little extra to those already inclined to try rezzing fallen allies.

Daddicus.6128:

…
Against bosses and very large mobs, though, glass-cannons become an exploit. The GC charges in, deals a large amount of damage, dies, and then waypoints and runs back to combat to repeat the process.
…

I don’t mind people who play like that so much. Personally I don’t enjoy running forth and back between waypoint and mobs, so I take care to stay alive whenever possible, thus investing a few points in vitality or thoughness.
I find pepole that burst some damage, then get hit and killed and wait&cry for a rez, instead of using a nearby waypoint way more annoying.

Annoying or not, I don’t call this an exploid. Its a personal preference on how to play.

Let me guess, the OP is in the anti-zerk group because he fails to play as one, thus anyone who can play zerk fine is an exploiter. FML.

If I want to put a gazillion points into offensive builds and do 223238298392 damage than that’s my choice, just like it’s your choice to put a gazillion points into toughness and be kitteneless tank that doesn’t do anything.

Daddicus.6128:

As it currently sits, GW2 (I’m only discussing PvE here) allows a glass-cannon strategy. What I mean by that is that you can put all your optional attribute points into things that do damage. Against smaller mobs, you end up killing the enemy before it can kill you. Against larger mobs, the character begins to have problems.

Against bosses and very large mobs, though, glass-cannons become an exploit. The GC charges in, deals a large amount of damage, dies, and then waypoints and runs back to combat to repeat the process.

IMO, this is an exploit. Do you agree? Why or why not? Also, if you agree, what should be done about it?

NOTE: Please don’t argue whether this actually works or not. Most everybody’s mind is already made up on that; that’s quite obvious from many other threads. Please stick with the more philosophical question of whether it SHOULD work or not.

I don’t understand the premise. If you’re solo, the mob will reset in 99% of the cases before you can return. If you’re in a group in an instance, you cannot port until your group is out of combat.
If you’re in a party in the open world, maybe. But if there is other people too, what gives? And how is that different from someone running a tanky setup and dying and running back in? This is neither an issue, nor is it only something you can do only as a glassy build.

I think this is one of the worst threads I’ve seen on here in a while.

Daddicus.6128:

As it currently sits, GW2 (I’m only discussing PvE here) allows a glass-cannon strategy. What I mean by that is that you can put all your optional attribute points into things that do damage. Against smaller mobs, you end up killing the enemy before it can kill you. Against larger mobs, the character begins to have problems.

Against bosses and very large mobs, though, glass-cannons become an exploit. The GC charges in, deals a large amount of damage, dies, and then waypoints and runs back to combat to repeat the process.

IMO, this is an exploit. Do you agree? Why or why not? Also, if you agree, what should be done about it?

NOTE: Please don’t argue whether this actually works or not. Most everybody’s mind is already made up on that; that’s quite obvious from many other threads. Please stick with the more philosophical question of whether it SHOULD work or not.

IMO your point of view is absurd – and I do not agree with it.
People dying, respawning and coming back is something that happens with any gear type – and has a lot to do with player skill.

Another thing is that a lot of open world bosses ( I’m assuming you’re talking open world since this does not work in instances) reset if you’ve died and they’re not in combat – so how is this an issue again?

Not to mention that the fact the GC character dying is somewhat balanced against the fact that a lower-damage higher sustain non-GC character is going to stay alive and keep dpsing.
So the GC might deal a “large” amount of damage up front but if he dies and has to respawn the entire time spent dead and running back he deals 0 damage – as compared to a non GC char that deals less damage but over a larger period of time ( because he didn’t die and doesn’t have to run back).

I also suspect OP’s posts are so borderline absurd because he’s trolling.

Daddicus.6128:

Palador.2170:

But it DOESN’T work, and that’s why it’s not an exploit.

The vast majority of posters here disagree with you. They’re the ones who say “when fully dead, waypoint out and run back”. And, they claim to have all kinds of data to support that argument.

I don’t agree with them, but this thread is to determine whether, if it DOES work, SHOULD it work?

NOTE: There are people who won’t rez dead people because of this effect. So, there’s a very real effect in-game, regardless of whether it is true or not.

Well that’s because a dead player near a boss scales up that boss – but doesn’t deal any damage.
It makes sense that regardless of your gear – if you’re dead you should be able to wp out and come back.
Unless of course you want to punish people who are low skill and die (regardless of gear) by not allowing them the chance to come back and take credit or participate any further once they’re dead.

This is as much an exploit as gliding off a ledge when some mobs are pursuing you.

Yes – there are people that won’t res you – because they shouldn’t have to.
If you died – you died because you didn’t do everything right to survive. Either you took too much glass gear that you can’t handle – or didn’t pay attention – or something else but that’s on you.
And the price you pay for your mistake is having to WP out and run back.
People can res you if they feel like it – but they are by no means obligated to do so.

Daddicus.6128:

I see it all the time. In almost every large battle, there’s always a few people saying, “fully dead: waypoint!”, frequently in all capital letters.

They do this because the claim is that the dead person counts against the scaling, but as soon as the dead person WPs out, the creature scales down to the now-smaller number of characters. IF they are correct, then we’re in what I call an exploit.

Ok let me explain that. Each X time it calculate how many people it have around it and scale up and down accordingly. It allow fight to not be impossible to do when only a small party is trying to do it, but also not stupidly easy when a big zerg is on the boss.

When you down, you still count in the total number of people, but you are dead so not helping. People ask dead people to WP so they can back here as fast as they can to help with the current even and not just be lazy and stay afk/dead waiting for someone to rez them. Because rezzing a dead person is really long, especially in combat, and it can be dangerous at some boss like Chak Gerent. That’s why people ask dead to wp, so come back heal if we all want to succeed. It’s not an exploit. btw Rezzing Dead people and rezzing down people isn’t the same thing. In big event everybody should be rezzing down people, it’s fast and it’s better for the event.

Daddicus.6128:

I used to think that to be the case. However, ANet, in the most recent patches, made reviving people in combat grant progress against that creature/event. So, clearly they are pointing people in the direction of “revive your allies”, rather than, “tell them to waypoint out and save us all the trouble of reviving them”.

Ok that one is simple. For the last 3 years people were complaining. Open world is suppose to be the most play how you want portion of the game. You can literally play the build you want and still contribute. People don’t mind what you bring, and you can see that in the forum. But only damage was contributing to the event progression. So someone that wanted to be a healer could receive no contribution or just bronze in events because they were healing, not damaging the boss. This last change was made for those people. Anet don’t point people in the direction of revive your allies, we are reviving our allies since day 1 of the game. But we revive down people in combat, rez dead people out of combat and if they can wp and come back to help then they should not wait to be rez dead.

Daddicus.6128:

Neural.1824:

No, it’s not an exploit. Advantage? maybe. Exploit, no.

Just because someone else plays in a manner that you don’t approve of doesn’t mean it’s an exploit.
If it’s really about PvE (which I am questioning), you need to simply accept that there are game mechanics that don’t follow your own personal rules, but are just fine by Anets.

I used to think that to be the case. However, ANet, in the most recent patches, made reviving people in combat grant progress against that creature/event. So, clearly they are pointing people in the direction of “revive your allies”, rather than, “tell them to waypoint out and save us all the trouble of reviving them”.

Anet are trying to reward people for participating at events in all ways – not just damage.
Nobody is under any obligation to res you. If you died – that’s your deal.

Also – the fact that bosses scale depending on number of players is not exploiting . Here’s why.

10 people fight a boss – boss scales for 10 people.
1 person dies – and waypoints out – boss scales for 9 people.
The dead person comes back and resumes the fight – boss scales for 10 people again.

If bosses didn’t downscale then massive trolling and scaling issues would be a thing.
Imagine trolling people by running a 10-20 man guild group at their boss – tagging and leaving. The boss is now upscaled by 20 players that have left and are no longer participating – if it didn’t scale back down how would the 5 guys who were initially fighting it finish it off?

Daddicus.6128:

polarbear.2497:

I won’t treat you like an idiot, but I will agree with the people who say this is clearly not an exploit. It’s playing as the game was designed – it’s been this way since the beginning, and if it was not acceptable to the developers, something would have been done by now to prevent the behavior (such as preventing waypointing to nearby waypoints, for example).

Thank you.

But, they did. See my post above on the most recent balance update (giving credit for reviving people), plus another person’s post on ANet’s fix in dungeons (which prevents waypointing in combat).

See my post above – dungeons are instanced content.
You don’t need to have dynamic scaling because you’ll never have more than 5 people inside – so there’s no scaling whatsoever.
In the open world – you need dynamic scaling – because the number of players fighting a boss can vary quite a bit depending on a lot of factors – not just players dying.

Perhaps Daddicus can elaborate which situation does he find glass cannon to be an exploit. As I see it, there are things to lose when you die, running back after dying is a drop in overall dps in the open world. PLenty of bosses have some kind of timer that acts as a dps check. This strategy you speak of does not really apply to dungeons either as all party members need to be out of combat for the dead to respawn and the boss will regenerate its health fully. How about you join raids if you want to play various builds?

I’m thinking you are advocating for long fights where players win by having more sustainability, it’s probably very good for people with plenty of time on their hands so they can get more fun out of putting in more time to get the same stuff which they did before. Probably the minimum amount of time required to play GW2 should be buffed, as according to you so that we may siphon off those people who need to work, have partners and maybe some other things in life to look at.

Harper.4173:

Daddicus.6128:

Palador.2170:

But it DOESN’T work, and that’s why it’s not an exploit.

The vast majority of posters here disagree with you. They’re the ones who say “when fully dead, waypoint out and run back”. And, they claim to have all kinds of data to support that argument.

I don’t agree with them, but this thread is to determine whether, if it DOES work, SHOULD it work?

NOTE: There are people who won’t rez dead people because of this effect. So, there’s a very real effect in-game, regardless of whether it is true or not.

Well that’s because a dead player near a boss scales up that boss – but doesn’t deal any damage.
It makes sense that regardless of your gear – if you’re dead you should be able to wp out and come back.
Unless of course you want to punish people who are low skill and die (regardless of gear) by not allowing them the chance to come back and take credit or participate any further once they’re dead.

This is as much an exploit as gliding off a ledge when some mobs are pursuing you.

Yes – there are people that won’t res you – because they shouldn’t have to.
If you died – you died because you didn’t do everything right to survive. Either you took too much glass gear that you can’t handle – or didn’t pay attention – or something else but that’s on you.
And the price you pay for your mistake is having to WP out and run back.
People can res you if they feel like it – but they are by no means obligated to do so.

When forum posters complained about players lying dead rather than waypointing Anet commented that their dynamic scaling paid attention to active participation, not just proximity to the encounter. Supposedly, dead and/or AFK characters do not continue to affect encounter scaling.

Ashen.2907:

Harper.4173:

Daddicus.6128:

Palador.2170:

But it DOESN’T work, and that’s why it’s not an exploit.

The vast majority of posters here disagree with you. They’re the ones who say “when fully dead, waypoint out and run back”. And, they claim to have all kinds of data to support that argument.

I don’t agree with them, but this thread is to determine whether, if it DOES work, SHOULD it work?

NOTE: There are people who won’t rez dead people because of this effect. So, there’s a very real effect in-game, regardless of whether it is true or not.

Well that’s because a dead player near a boss scales up that boss – but doesn’t deal any damage.
It makes sense that regardless of your gear – if you’re dead you should be able to wp out and come back.
Unless of course you want to punish people who are low skill and die (regardless of gear) by not allowing them the chance to come back and take credit or participate any further once they’re dead.

This is as much an exploit as gliding off a ledge when some mobs are pursuing you.

Yes – there are people that won’t res you – because they shouldn’t have to.
If you died – you died because you didn’t do everything right to survive. Either you took too much glass gear that you can’t handle – or didn’t pay attention – or something else but that’s on you.
And the price you pay for your mistake is having to WP out and run back.
People can res you if they feel like it – but they are by no means obligated to do so.

When forum posters complained about players lying dead rather than waypointing Anet commented that their dynamic scaling paid attention to active participation, not just proximity to the encounter. Supposedly, dead and/or AFK characters do not continue to affect encounter scaling.

Wasn’t there a timer for that? Like dead players don’t affect scaling until some time passes since they died

maddoctor.2738:

Ashen.2907:

Harper.4173:

Daddicus.6128:

Palador.2170:

But it DOESN’T work, and that’s why it’s not an exploit.

The vast majority of posters here disagree with you. They’re the ones who say “when fully dead, waypoint out and run back”. And, they claim to have all kinds of data to support that argument.

I don’t agree with them, but this thread is to determine whether, if it DOES work, SHOULD it work?

NOTE: There are people who won’t rez dead people because of this effect. So, there’s a very real effect in-game, regardless of whether it is true or not.

Well that’s because a dead player near a boss scales up that boss – but doesn’t deal any damage.
It makes sense that regardless of your gear – if you’re dead you should be able to wp out and come back.
Unless of course you want to punish people who are low skill and die (regardless of gear) by not allowing them the chance to come back and take credit or participate any further once they’re dead.

This is as much an exploit as gliding off a ledge when some mobs are pursuing you.

Yes – there are people that won’t res you – because they shouldn’t have to.
If you died – you died because you didn’t do everything right to survive. Either you took too much glass gear that you can’t handle – or didn’t pay attention – or something else but that’s on you.
And the price you pay for your mistake is having to WP out and run back.
People can res you if they feel like it – but they are by no means obligated to do so.

When forum posters complained about players lying dead rather than waypointing Anet commented that their dynamic scaling paid attention to active participation, not just proximity to the encounter. Supposedly, dead and/or AFK characters do not continue to affect encounter scaling.

Wasn’t there a timer for that? Like dead players don’t affect scaling until some time passes since they died

I think that there was some comment that down scaling for a dead or afk character is not instantaneous. So a dead character will affect encounter scaling until a subsequent participation check by whatever system tracks such.