Guild Wars 2

Hi, i want to talk about GW2’s absence of any VIABLE tanking and healing play styles.

I really enjoy the role of a healer and a tanker but i feel that in GW2 as of now, i can’t create a build of any class that can solely do any of the two.

Yes i understand that ANET wanted to move away from the HOLY TRINITY tradition of other MMOs, because of the frustration of whereby ALMOST everybody wants to dps and long que times due to waiting for a healer or tanker in a party. Allowing each individual to be self-sufficient fixed this problem and i applaud ANET for doing so.

But how about us? the minority of Gw2 ( i assume ).

The ability to create builds that tank, heal and dps supposedly brought diversity to GW2, but ironically it has left us passionate healers and tankers unable to play the way we like.

This isn’t the only issue. Due to everyone being able to do everything, there isn’t a clear understanding of what everyone is capable of in a party and hence it’s almost impossible to coordinate and work together. Hence the full damage meta since killing everything instantly rallies everybody anyways and nobody gives a dime whether or not you’re down.

In PVE there isn’t a NEED for positioning and hence the stacking mechanic. Hence, It truly doesn’t feel like there is a need to communicate with each other or cooperate together in a party. Instead we just stack up into a sandwich and dps away.

In WvW, it feels like a dogfight where everyone just runs around trying to kill each other as fast as possible. There is no order, there is no tactical positioning of players. It doesn’t matter if you’re up front or way at the back.

Now some people here may state that YES there are builds for Guardians and other classes where you can trait and build SOLELY for tanking and healing. but are they VIABLE. Do they work? Healing power scales so bad in this game that tanking and healing just isn’t an option. Also i am not ignoring the legend: Ventari of the upcoming class Revenant, but i do not want to play that one class for the rest of my GW2 hours.

Also, am i supporting the HOLY TRINITY? No! I ABSOLUTELY think that GW2 has done such a great job of attempting to be different! and i really appreciate that. I just want full tanking and healing an option in this game that is all.

I still love GW2 and i’ll continue to play this game. This is just one of the very few things that i do not like about it and i would like to say thank you to ANET for their continued effort on trying to make this game enjoyable! <3

Many thanks to those who read this post ’till the end.

- Hwarang

have you tried a guardian mace/focus build with a lot of PVT gear and maybe some celestial/cleric trinkets? Its like a tank + healer in one bro…

most of your points are just bs. ele blasting a water fields is a crap ton of healing for instance. guardian with above build can heal himself from 0 to full. I dunno what more heal you want.

you can stack on some fights and most fights you don’t need to. stacking is an old thing from fgs. most groups just still mindlessly follow it. Truth is positioning is often more important.

Also they’ve attempted harder content like arah, ta, and such and look how often people do that. Look how often people even do hotw.

Mightybird.6034:

have you tried a guardian mace/focus build with a lot of PVT gear and maybe some celestial/cleric trinkets? Its like a tank + healer in one bro…

Mhmm i’ve tried but there never seemed to be enough heals to keep my ally alive. I’ve been kicked out of many dungeons because they tell me healing/tanking just isn’t viable in Gw2. People refuse to party with me in WvW. And i must admit the heals aren’t particularly that great when a thief can oneshot backstab you.

Ahh yes the ele water fields are awesome i love that. but when i lay down a water field, other people put down other fields by mistake and i blast em instead. Also, people move out of the fields after i put down the field when i try to heal them, hence i wouldn’t say a water field ele heal build would be VIABLE

thank you for replying

Hwarang.4789:

Healing power scales so bad in this game that tanking and healing just isn’t an option.

I singled this out for being the least accurate part of your post. Tanking and healing are very much an option. I have a very tanky warrior and a guardian who essentially keeps a continuous cycling of heals from regens, blocks, shouts and meditations. The new trait system only improved his healing solo and group.

Healing power is tricky to balance because if it scales too much it can quickly become over powered. It may need tweaking, but it is no way as bad as people claim.

As for viability, well no one will deny dps is outclasses all, but that doesn’t remove the option for support – they often prove safer options for groups, even if not faster.
This is precisely why they are working on content in HoT to overcome this and utilise a greater spread of styles and skills, where support will apparently matter. Time will tell if that will be the case.

There are good examples where they are working towards this already:
Mordrem have show that they are going in the right direction with conditions over raw power. Including non-damage conditions like cripple and blind. Ive some massively effective healing in Fort protections at SW
Karka are obliterated by reflects
Support helps a lot with Guild Bounties

Testing the waters of change, but signs nonetheless

Hwarang.4789:

Mightybird.6034:

have you tried a guardian mace/focus build with a lot of PVT gear and maybe some celestial/cleric trinkets? Its like a tank + healer in one bro…

Mhmm i’ve tried but there never seemed to be enough heals to keep my ally alive. I’ve been kicked out of many dungeons because they tell me healing/tanking just isn’t viable in Gw2. People refuse to party with me in WvW. And i must admit the heals aren’t particularly that great when a thief can oneshot backstab you.

Run with a more organized group for wvw – blasting water fields in out numbered situations (usually hammer train guardians wars and eles for water fields and cc mostly) like in a 15vs 20 fight is why the 15 can win.

as for dungeons – well what do you expect? at this point we need new content. roles won’t change anything. us vets have everything so well memorized that the most efficient means of doing dungeons for the 500th time is full offense and no defense because we don’t want to waste time.

You can do a support build, I’ve guildies that have done it with ele or guard. Just go to that sort of group. You need other group members with toughness gear to make the healing worth while.

Mhmm i’ve tried but there never seemed to be enough heals to keep my ally alive.

because you’re (probably) trying to keep glass cannons alive (that are also probably bad if they need the healing). The options are there. If you run a non zerk group.

Hwarang.4789:

Also, people move out of the fields after i put down the field when i try to heal them, hence i wouldn’t say a water field ele heal build would be VIABLE

This is an advanced game. Like I said. Go with more organized people or well, play another game. I like this game because it highly rewards organized and skilled play.

Since the beginning of GW2, my main characer has been a bunker Arcane/Water/Earth Staff Elementalist.

I’ve always played her a in a more supportive role, providing boons, regenerations and being able to tank stuff if needed.

The playstyle and the effectivness of the build are viable; the issue is that there’s a certain style of player that doesn’t care about “viable” exactly – they care about doing things as fast as possible.

We reach a bit of a design pitfall. Arena.net is afraid of creating content that requires “tanks” or “healers”, since that would be reminiscent of the holy trinity that GW2 has done away with. But if content doesn’t require tanks/healers, it means that focusing solely on DPS should work – and should, logically, be the fastest way to do it.

So people that want to farm will tend to favor playing with all-out DPS builds and will often want their partymates to also be that way.

Still, I do find dungeons and fractals parties from time do time that don’t seem to care about that, and it’s a fun experience.

Mightybird.6034:

Hwarang.4789:

Mightybird.6034:

have you tried a guardian mace/focus build with a lot of PVT gear and maybe some celestial/cleric trinkets? Its like a tank + healer in one bro…

Mhmm i’ve tried but there never seemed to be enough heals to keep my ally alive. I’ve been kicked out of many dungeons because they tell me healing/tanking just isn’t viable in Gw2. People refuse to party with me in WvW. And i must admit the heals aren’t particularly that great when a thief can oneshot backstab you.

Run with a more organized group for wvw – blasting water fields in out numbered situations (usually hammer train guardians wars and eles for water fields and cc mostly) like in a 15vs 20 fight is why the 15 can win.

as for dungeons – well what do you expect? at this point we need new content. roles won’t change anything. us vets have everything so well memorized that the most efficient means of doing dungeons for the 500th time is full offense and no defense because we don’t want to waste time.

You can do a support build, I’ve guildies that have done it with ele or guard. Just go to that sort of group. You need other group members with toughness gear to make the healing worth while.

Hwarang.4789:

Also, people move out of the fields after i put down the field when i try to heal them, hence i wouldn’t say a water field ele heal build would be VIABLE

This is an advanced game. Like I said. Go with more organized people or well, play another game. I like this game because it highly rewards organized and skilled play.

Hmm yes it is true that i have trouble finding my own niche where people appreciate some support and not full dps. Though i think it doesn’t make sense that i ask my party member to change their stat preference just so that i can heal em. I thought the idea of supporting was to keep your ally alive so they can perform at their utmost potential.

Also the 15 v 20 situation you were talking about is very situational. I wouldn’t be able to play with whomever i like, there is most definitely going to be another pug who may possible overlap my water field. It just isn’t reliable

However, your comment sort of gave me a lil more confidence to try my full heal builds again. Thanks again for your reply

Oh, also, have you tried high level fractals? there tends to be a lot more willingness and wiggle room there for defense/support builds since it starts to get so nasty. In the 40-50 range. The really good types still tend to run zerk builds but those are usually organized guild groups who don’t LFG as much. The LFG in my experience tend to be more open to support builds funnily enough.

What a clerics guard can do. Seems quite viable to me. Unnecessary sure, but it can bring consistency in to a run.

Ellye.9123:

Since the beginning of GW2, my main characer has been a bunker Arcane/Water/Earth Staff Elementalist.

I’ve always played her a in a more supportive role, providing boons, regenerations and being able to tank stuff if needed.

The playstyle and the effectivness of the build are viable; the issue is that there’s a certain style of player that doesn’t care about “viable” exactly – they care about doing things as fast as possible.

We reach a bit of a design pitfall. Arena.net is afraid of creating content that requires “tanks” or “healers”, since that would be reminiscent of the holy trinity that GW2 has done away with. But if content doesn’t require tanks/healers, it means that focusing solely on DPS should work – and should, logically, be the fastest way to do it.

So people that want to farm will tend to favor playing with all-out DPS builds and will often want their partymates to also be that way.

Still, I do find dungeons and fractals parties from time do time that don’t seem to care about that, and it’s a fun experience.

I see based on all these comments it is more about content. Thank you. Lets hope that the expansion’s promised harder content allows us supporters to shine

Hwarang.4789:

Hmm yes it is true that i have trouble finding my own niche where people appreciate some support and not full dps. Though i think it doesn’t make sense that i ask my party member to change their stat preference just so that i can heal em. I thought the idea of supporting was to keep your ally alive so they can perform at their utmost potential.

Also the 15 v 20 situation you were talking about is very situational. I wouldn’t be able to play with whomever i like, there is most definitely going to be another pug who may possible overlap my water field. It just isn’t reliable

However, your comment sort of gave me a lil more confidence to try my full heal builds again. Thanks again for your reply

You don’t need to ask your party member to change stats. Just start your own group with a desc something like “no skips non meta” or “casual” etc people will automatically join who have some toughness.

As to wvw. There are guilds who specialize in being out numbered I’ve been a part of them. They are so hardcore I’ve had one recruit me in the past and pay for my server transfer If you are into it you need only find one. They’ll run with 10-20 and contest much larger zergs. TBH tho I am not sure you would enjoy them, they are very hardcore crowd. You will have to run things there way most likely (I did not enjoy it personally.) But maybe you can find a better guild than I was in…

Well, for PvE, ANet did state that they’re gonna update all maps and dungeons, except Starter maps, to contain more proper foes that forces players to use more active combat mechanics and provide use for other builds than just forfull berserker DPS.

Before that, some have already suggested that you go to Southsun Cove, Dry Top and Silverwastes for foes that don’t stand there to die and do nothing.

FrostSpectre.4198:

Well, for PvE, ANet did state that they’re gonna update all maps and dungeons, except Starter maps, to contain more proper foes that forces players to use more active combat mechanics and provide use for other builds than just forfull berserker DPS.

Oh, that’s good news that I wasn’t aware of.

Do you remember where they mentioned that? I’d like to read more about it (if there’s more).

FrostSpectre.4198:

use more active combat mechanic -full berserker DPS.

That moment when you realize the meta is purely based on active defense and healing is by definition passive defense.

Ok, I’m gonna adress this from the point of view of someone who follows meta:

FORGET ABOUT HEALING, THINK SUPPORT

FORGET ABOUT TANKING, THINK SUPPORT

Just by Choosing Guardian as a Profession, you immedietally choose to play a Support role, because Guardians are just that good at being support.

FORGET about wearing “Healing Power” Gear, it doesn’t matter wether you wear Zerker, Soldier or Cleric gear, you Still bring Support to the team. Even the most hardcore DPS Mediguard builds generally bring both Absolute Resolution and Indomitable Courage to a team fight.

Support is one of the 3 essential Components in GW2 combat, however it differs greatly from the support found in the Holy Trinity.
In GW2, Support is Pro-active rather than Reactive. You’re not there to turn the tides of battle with immense heals, you’re there to keep the tide from coming against your party to begin with.

The Guardian’s heals aren’t there as a failsafe button, instead they’re meant to sustain the team through the fight. However, Healing is a very low-priority level of support in PvE. As a Guardian, you can Blind Enemies, deal out Aegis, protection and Stability to allies like Candy, you’ve got access to the Second Best Projectile Defense of all Professions, you’ve got enough Condi Cleanse to last your team a lifetime.

Between the 3 cornerstones of Damage, Support and Control, only Damage is currently restricted by and to what gear you’re currently wearing, both in terms of Outgoing DPS and Mitigating incoming Damage. Support and Control are done just as well in Zerker as they’re done in Soldier. Cleric gear is useful in 1 instance, and that is PvP where enemies are smarter, faster and more relentless than the AI.

So don’t let the choice of gear divert your attention. As a Guardian, no matter wether you’re in PvE, WvW or sPvP, you’re still support first and foremost. It’s equally important, in PvE and WvW, to be Flexible and know when and where to bring which kind of Support. Projectile Heavy fight? Bring Wall of Light and trait Master of Consecrations. Condition Heavy fight? Bring Purging Flames and Absolute Resolution. CC heavy fight? Bring “Stand Your Ground!” or Hallowed Ground. Enemy attacks slow but with devastating attacks? Bring “Retreat!” and keep a finger on F3. Loads of Trash Mobs overwhelming the party? Spam Virtue of Justice and make sure to have the Radiance line traited.

Among all professions, Guardian is possibly The only one that can adapt to protect himself and his party from any kind of enemy, just as long as he’s prepared for it.

I would suggest taking a look at http://metabattle.com/wiki/MetaBattle_Wiki and read through the Meta Builds guide, and you’ll see that in all 3 Guardian metabuilds, they put a load of emphasis on Support over anything.

Jerus.4350:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLItHwWS_nY

What a clerics guard can do. Seems quite viable to me. Unnecessary sure, but it can bring consistency in to a run.

Thanks for posting this. Reposting for truth.

TheSwede.9512:

Ok, I’m gonna adress this from the point of view of someone who follows meta:

FORGET ABOUT HEALING, THINK SUPPORT

FORGET ABOUT TANKING, THINK SUPPORT

Between the 3 cornerstones of Damage, Support and Control, only Damage is currently restricted by and to what gear you’re currently wearing, both in terms of Outgoing DPS and Mitigating incoming Damage. Support and Control are done just as well in Zerker as they’re done in Soldier. Cleric gear is useful in 1 instance, and that is PvP where enemies are smarter, faster and more relentless than the AI.

This is the sentiment I was about to post myself. Because of the way the game’s combat is designed, and the inherent power of the Soft control and Support conditions/boon, builds scale asymmetrically when it comes to attributes. Overall, this is actually works perfectly fine in both theory and practice. (And on paper Anet insists its working as intended)

However, the problems we see that resulted the Zerks meta is a result of how the game works outside of a vacuum. This is where the Devs are extremely blind (or unwilling to admit), and directly lead to the huge list of problems with PvE combat in general. The Mordrem was essentially a test of Player levels of build competency applied to NPC mob level scaling….. the results were not difficult to predict.

To help enlighten the issue slightly, I present the following Hypothesis. All PVE mobs are expressly designed to defeat “tanks”. It is from this position all other mob design issues extend to create the situation we see now. And when you think about this, a lot of other things to start to fall into place… both with the game and with the Dev’s mind set.

Its not widely known, but Mob AI actually has a preference for attacking players with high toughness. This was supposed to enable the role of the tank without using Taunts and express Aggro skills, by adding enough bias toward a Tank’s primary attribute that his normal damage will be enough to maintain aggro; unless a significantly larger damage source exists. Theres also a couple latching rules I’m not keen on, but does explain why some of the odd “stick or switch” AI behavior in Dungeon mobs.

So what went wrong? Quite simple. Mob’s scale faster then Players can stack defense attributes. We know Mobs mainly scale on power and HP, which occurs in direct opposition to defense oriented players. But because they only used these 2 stats, it created the fall out that lead to the problems with Condi and defense stats. Direct damage would had suffered from the HP boost as well, except we have multiple vectors which we can scale it to compensate for the difference. As a result, our ability to scale damage mitigation was extremely limited (despite having liner growth), but our ability to scale direct damage (output) remained strong. When you factor in mobs tiers (vet, elite, champ) as a representation of how many players its designed to combat as individuals, the single biggest reason Dungeons fail this equation is their sheer numbers. You have 1 tank trying to mitigate the damage of a group of mobs with a damage output ratio of 2:1, 3:1, or possibly 5:1 with champs. This is why I think Champ fights turned out to be the easiest part of most dungeons; as the amount of errant damage from them is pretty minimal. But if you throw in even a hand full of vets with AOE, even clerics and nomad builds start having problems.

So why zerkers? The massive burst damage capable from mobs meant 2 things.
1. Mitigating damage is pointless when they can easily overwhelm you.
2. The longer they’re alive, the more attacks will be out in the field.

Our active defenses are designed to counter burst damage, but are unsustainable. Its the reason current PvE content is so easily defeated by it, the reason why rapid attack mobs pose the most danger (even at relatively low damage), and its why PvP and WvW favors fast attack skills. The stable DPS attacks, like vollys, pulse AOE, etc, were all intended to be countered by raw attributes. But because mob attack power scales so fast, it can still overload all but the most heavily speced defense builds. But the trade off in DPS is too high a cost for what amounts to half-effective damage soaking; so almost noone can find situations were it isn’t easier, faster, and much safer to simply kill the damage sources before they can execute follow up attacks. Again looking at Mordrem, the single biggest adjust to most builds in SW is the addition of “some” Tough/Vit to survive the constant AOE stun lock situations…. so long as it doesn’t sacrifice too much damage output.

Condi builds were experimented with for SW since Sinisters was added as prefix. But what we found was Condi skills require far too much upkeep to risk the endless onslaught that Mordrem put out. I actually took my Dire Engie (which is pretty much all condi and defense) and found that my defense stats only allowed a few extra seconds of survivability, but took MUCH longer to kill things from having to dodge and break DPS to stay alive. My power build, on the other hand fared much better through the combination of controls and flat superior DPS. And the condi change simply allowed us to better incorporate condition damage into existing DPS builds, giving both pressure and spike damage. But there still hasn’t been any new emphasis in defense.

But then theres PvP…. the condi change there was radical. Popular Bunker builds (which were anti-power) are now getting decimated with condi damage if they can’t support enough cleanses. This is hugely important to pay attention to for HOT, because THIS is what I’m starting to think is a sign of HOT mobs incorporating condi damage to both fight, and defend against. And in the end, the underlying problem of Tanks not being survivable is just shuffled to include condi damage.

Holding aggro and making red/green bars go up is boring. I’m glad Anet did away with tanks and healers. Now all they need to do is refine their combat mechanics to create truly challenging content.

One thing a lot of people don’t seem to realize is that the zerker meta wont hold up in the challenging content in Heart of Thorns, colin brohanson has even said that you’ll need a variety of roles and gear sets in order to complete it, which would mean OPs want is probably going to be quite doable.

If you want to be tanky with heals i’d suggest you go with Clerics (I’ve been told Magi’s is good for guardian with a certain trait), however make sure you don’t go pure heals, that’ll never happen. Your healing will help out your team a little bit, but you should absolutely be using boons and that more.

Also, if you’re trying to tank in PvE you need to bring a good amount of CC. CC will both kitten off the mob to make it focus you (especially if you’re in melee of said mob), and it’ll inhibit it from getting to your team, and hurting you.

Also keep in mind that you may want to run the current PvE content with friends or guildies and stay away from pugs, otherwise they’ll just kitten and moan about you not stacking or doing enough damage. What i’ll normally do is make a group with 2 other friends and just say in the LFG notification that we’re not zerker and aren’t going to play like a normal zerker group so don’t expect it.

Durzlla.6295:

One thing a lot of people don’t seem to realize is that the zerker meta wont hold up in the challenging content in Heart of Thorns, colin brohanson has even said that you’ll need a variety of roles and gear sets in order to complete it, which would mean OPs want is probably going to be quite doable.

If you want to be tanky with heals i’d suggest you go with Clerics (I’ve been told Magi’s is good for guardian with a certain trait), however make sure you don’t go pure heals, that’ll never happen. Your healing will help out your team a little bit, but you should absolutely be using boons and that more.

Also, if you’re trying to tank in PvE you need to bring a good amount of CC. CC will both kitten off the mob to make it focus you (especially if you’re in melee of said mob), and it’ll inhibit it from getting to your team, and hurting you.

Also keep in mind that you may want to run the current PvE content with friends or guildies and stay away from pugs, otherwise they’ll just kitten and moan about you not stacking or doing enough damage. What i’ll normally do is make a group with 2 other friends and just say in the LFG notification that we’re not zerker and aren’t going to play like a normal zerker group so don’t expect it.

My zerker ranger has completed every PvE content currently available with little difficulty. No matter what Anet has in store, zerkers will find a way to cheese it.

Quarktastic.1027:

Durzlla.6295:

One thing a lot of people don’t seem to realize is that the zerker meta wont hold up in the challenging content in Heart of Thorns, colin brohanson has even said that you’ll need a variety of roles and gear sets in order to complete it, which would mean OPs want is probably going to be quite doable.

If you want to be tanky with heals i’d suggest you go with Clerics (I’ve been told Magi’s is good for guardian with a certain trait), however make sure you don’t go pure heals, that’ll never happen. Your healing will help out your team a little bit, but you should absolutely be using boons and that more.

Also, if you’re trying to tank in PvE you need to bring a good amount of CC. CC will both kitten off the mob to make it focus you (especially if you’re in melee of said mob), and it’ll inhibit it from getting to your team, and hurting you.

Also keep in mind that you may want to run the current PvE content with friends or guildies and stay away from pugs, otherwise they’ll just kitten and moan about you not stacking or doing enough damage. What i’ll normally do is make a group with 2 other friends and just say in the LFG notification that we’re not zerker and aren’t going to play like a normal zerker group so don’t expect it.

My zerker ranger has completed every PvE content currently available with little difficulty. No matter what Anet has in store, zerkers will find a way to cheese it.

You do realize the fact you’ve completed every CURRENT PvE content in zerker means absolutely nothing right? This content isn’t going to be on the same level as the challenging content from the sounds of it. This current content seems like it was a disastrous failure from how the devs talk about it compared to heart of thorns, so i wouldn’t say you’ll be cheesing your way through it until the next content comes out.

Everything on this game is viable. Anybody who says otherwise is mistaken. You can complete all content even if you’re in the least efficient gear.

It’s all a matter of what’s fastest and most efficient, which healing builds are definitely not.

You are mistaking the terms “efficient” and “viable.”

What about those of us who want to play captains of Federation starships? Why are we being left out?

…because this game was not intended to be Star Trek Online, and if I bought it expecting such, despite plenty of information to the contrary, its my own fault. Ishould play this game for what it was intended to be, and install STO if I have a hankering to kill a few Klingons.

If your goal in an mmo is to play a pure healer, who does solely that, you are likely to continue to be disappointed, and rightly so, with GW2.

If you choose to buy an apple when you are craving an orange, any resulting disatisfaction is your fault alone.

Ellye.9123:

Since the beginning of GW2, my main characer has been a bunker Arcane/Water/Earth Staff Elementalist.

I’ve always played her a in a more supportive role, providing boons, regenerations and being able to tank stuff if needed.

The playstyle and the effectivness of the build are viable; the issue is that there’s a certain style of player that doesn’t care about “viable” exactly – they care about doing things as fast as possible.

We reach a bit of a design pitfall. Arena.net is afraid of creating content that requires “tanks” or “healers”, since that would be reminiscent of the holy trinity that GW2 has done away with. But if content doesn’t require tanks/healers, it means that focusing solely on DPS should work – and should, logically, be the fastest way to do it.

So people that want to farm will tend to favor playing with all-out DPS builds and will often want their partymates to also be that way.

Still, I do find dungeons and fractals parties from time do time that don’t seem to care about that, and it’s a fun experience.

Regarding PvE and Dungeons,Fractals.
It’s not just about the speed.
A defensive built player in a zerker party will most certainly
result in the party wiping.
I see a lot of people not getting this.
When you come in defensive,and you get the perception that you keep
your party alive,the truth is that your defensive build created the need
for more defence in the first place.
Whenever I join a proper zerker party the difference is very noticeable,
I get a lot less pressure from boss damage,when compared to parties with
support and tanky players.
Content can be done with any build,but not all builds work well together.

Randulf.7614:

Hwarang.4789:

Healing power scales so bad in this game that tanking and healing just isn’t an option.

I singled this out for being the least accurate part of your post. Tanking and healing are very much an option. I have a very tanky warrior and a guardian who essentially keeps a continuous cycling of heals from regens, blocks, shouts and meditations. The new trait system only improved his healing solo and group.

Healing power is tricky to balance because if it scales too much it can quickly become over powered. It may need tweaking, but it is no way as bad as people claim.

As for viability, well no one will deny dps is outclasses all, but that doesn’t remove the option for support – they often prove safer options for groups, even if not faster.
This is precisely why they are working on content in HoT to overcome this and utilise a greater spread of styles and skills, where support will apparently matter. Time will tell if that will be the case.

There are good examples where they are working towards this already:
Mordrem have show that they are going in the right direction with conditions over raw power. Including non-damage conditions like cripple and blind. Ive some massively effective healing in Fort protections at SW
Karka are obliterated by reflects
Support helps a lot with Guild Bounties

Testing the waters of change, but signs nonetheless

Healing Power is tricky to balance, for sure, but currently it is a little on the weak side for group content, and way on the weak side for solo content.

My biggest problem with it is how useless it is if you aren’t running a full party support build. It is the single most useless stat by a very large margin if you’re just building a hybrid character or want to mix a little of it into your build.

I think the main problem is in the balance of healing skills. Skills that only heal you need to benefit substantially more from healing power than group heals should.

Aenaos.8160:

Ellye.9123:

Since the beginning of GW2, my main characer has been a bunker Arcane/Water/Earth Staff Elementalist.

I’ve always played her a in a more supportive role, providing boons, regenerations and being able to tank stuff if needed.

The playstyle and the effectivness of the build are viable; the issue is that there’s a certain style of player that doesn’t care about “viable” exactly – they care about doing things as fast as possible.

We reach a bit of a design pitfall. Arena.net is afraid of creating content that requires “tanks” or “healers”, since that would be reminiscent of the holy trinity that GW2 has done away with. But if content doesn’t require tanks/healers, it means that focusing solely on DPS should work – and should, logically, be the fastest way to do it.

So people that want to farm will tend to favor playing with all-out DPS builds and will often want their partymates to also be that way.

Still, I do find dungeons and fractals parties from time do time that don’t seem to care about that, and it’s a fun experience.

Regarding PvE and Dungeons,Fractals.
It’s not just about the speed.
A defensive built player in a zerker party will most certainly
result in the party wiping.
I see a lot of people not getting this.
When you come in defensive,and you get the perception that you keep
your party alive,the truth is that your defensive build created the need
for more defence in the first place.
Whenever I join a proper zerker party the difference is very noticeable,
I get a lot less pressure from boss damage,when compared to parties with
support and tanky players.
Content can be done with any build,but not all builds work well together.

Oh, I agree with you actually. A team with 4-zerk and 1-tanky doesn’t work well. The zerk builds need everything to be destroyed as quick as possible for them to work properly.

I prefer to play my tanky-support character together with more balanced characters, that tend to works well. Certainly not as quick as a full zerk party, but I don’t play for speed, so I’m fine with that.

Durzlla.6295:

Quarktastic.1027:

Durzlla.6295:

One thing a lot of people don’t seem to realize is that the zerker meta wont hold up in the challenging content in Heart of Thorns, colin brohanson has even said that you’ll need a variety of roles and gear sets in order to complete it, which would mean OPs want is probably going to be quite doable.

If you want to be tanky with heals i’d suggest you go with Clerics (I’ve been told Magi’s is good for guardian with a certain trait), however make sure you don’t go pure heals, that’ll never happen. Your healing will help out your team a little bit, but you should absolutely be using boons and that more.

Also, if you’re trying to tank in PvE you need to bring a good amount of CC. CC will both kitten off the mob to make it focus you (especially if you’re in melee of said mob), and it’ll inhibit it from getting to your team, and hurting you.

Also keep in mind that you may want to run the current PvE content with friends or guildies and stay away from pugs, otherwise they’ll just kitten and moan about you not stacking or doing enough damage. What i’ll normally do is make a group with 2 other friends and just say in the LFG notification that we’re not zerker and aren’t going to play like a normal zerker group so don’t expect it.

My zerker ranger has completed every PvE content currently available with little difficulty. No matter what Anet has in store, zerkers will find a way to cheese it.

You do realize the fact you’ve completed every CURRENT PvE content in zerker means absolutely nothing right? This content isn’t going to be on the same level as the challenging content from the sounds of it. This current content seems like it was a disastrous failure from how the devs talk about it compared to heart of thorns, so i wouldn’t say you’ll be cheesing your way through it until the next content comes out.

And you do realize that the content won’t mean that zerker gear isn’t viable there. So it may not change anything for those that are already skilled in the game.

The meta may start at a more defensive gear set but it will likely become more offensive as players learn the new mechanics and pick up new masteries. Whether it will end up at full zerker, is anyone’s guess.

Just like the meta for the current content did. The meta didn’t start off as full zerker, DPS oriented builds. They started out with gear that was more defensive. That allowed them to make mistakes. Because they hadn’t run the content 500 times. Hadn’t learned the mechanics.

First and foremost OP you have to understand that viable doesn’t mean optimal.

Everything is viable in GW2 since you can complete with anything – even makeshift healers and tanks. Not everything is OPTIMAL.
You are trying to get into optimized parties that run optimal gear. It’s a different thing.

Secondly I feel you lack real experience with the game since you said positioning isn’t important and since you think it’s not clear what everybody brings to and in a party.

My suggestion – first get more accustomed to the game – you’ll find that some of the things you expect are used but in ways you wouldn’t immediately recognize.

Second – like you said – minorities don’t really get catered to much in GW2.
Look at hardcore content loving players – we haven’t had any updates since the fractured one almost 2 years ago.

Seera.5916:

Durzlla.6295:

Quarktastic.1027:

Durzlla.6295:

One thing a lot of people don’t seem to realize is that the zerker meta wont hold up in the challenging content in Heart of Thorns, colin brohanson has even said that you’ll need a variety of roles and gear sets in order to complete it, which would mean OPs want is probably going to be quite doable.

If you want to be tanky with heals i’d suggest you go with Clerics (I’ve been told Magi’s is good for guardian with a certain trait), however make sure you don’t go pure heals, that’ll never happen. Your healing will help out your team a little bit, but you should absolutely be using boons and that more.

Also, if you’re trying to tank in PvE you need to bring a good amount of CC. CC will both kitten off the mob to make it focus you (especially if you’re in melee of said mob), and it’ll inhibit it from getting to your team, and hurting you.

Also keep in mind that you may want to run the current PvE content with friends or guildies and stay away from pugs, otherwise they’ll just kitten and moan about you not stacking or doing enough damage. What i’ll normally do is make a group with 2 other friends and just say in the LFG notification that we’re not zerker and aren’t going to play like a normal zerker group so don’t expect it.

My zerker ranger has completed every PvE content currently available with little difficulty. No matter what Anet has in store, zerkers will find a way to cheese it.

You do realize the fact you’ve completed every CURRENT PvE content in zerker means absolutely nothing right? This content isn’t going to be on the same level as the challenging content from the sounds of it. This current content seems like it was a disastrous failure from how the devs talk about it compared to heart of thorns, so i wouldn’t say you’ll be cheesing your way through it until the next content comes out.

And you do realize that the content won’t mean that zerker gear isn’t viable there. So it may not change anything for those that are already skilled in the game.

The meta may start at a more defensive gear set but it will likely become more offensive as players learn the new mechanics and pick up new masteries. Whether it will end up at full zerker, is anyone’s guess.

Just like the meta for the current content did. The meta didn’t start off as full zerker, DPS oriented builds. They started out with gear that was more defensive. That allowed them to make mistakes. Because they hadn’t run the content 500 times. Hadn’t learned the mechanics.

This so much, pretty much everything you guys are saying about HoT content in this thread (and all over the forums too) was also said about our current content prior to launch of GW2

fear not, not only can you enjoy 90% of all MMORPG on the market, but every fair out there should be able to satisfy your craving for Whack-a-Mole.

Hwarang.4789:

… This isn’t the only issue. Due to everyone being able to do everything, there isn’t a clear understanding of what everyone is capable of in a party and hence it’s almost impossible to coordinate and work together. Hence the full damage meta since killing everything instantly rallies everybody anyways and nobody gives a dime whether or not you’re down. …

Uhm, I think you misunderstood the meta. It’s about using active defenses like reflect, blind, etc to take no damage at all. Since those active defenses are not bound to any gear-stats you might as well gear for full damage. Also the active defenses don’t hold forever, so the foes need to be dead before defenses run out. If I took any damage and went below 90% health I’d deal 20% less dps (traits + scholar runes).

The only fight where I change my gear to something else than full damage is Mai Trin, since dps doesn’t mean anything to her as long as she still has stacks.

Btw: Silverwastes on a full zerker ele is really fun. You need to know each mob, their attack patterns and always keep an eye on your surroundings. Thrashers are the most dangerous since they launch small vines from the ground that instantly hit you no matter how you move. This can be avoided by going melee against the attacking Thrasher. Teragryphs are dangerous because if their charge attack hits you, you’re most likely dead. Still the attack is really obvious and easy to dodge. Also if you bind them they’ll fail their charge and fall over for free dps. Wolves need to be ranged and only get dangerous in groups.

Durzlla.6295:

Quarktastic.1027:

Durzlla.6295:

One thing a lot of people don’t seem to realize is that the zerker meta wont hold up in the challenging content in Heart of Thorns, colin brohanson has even said that you’ll need a variety of roles and gear sets in order to complete it, which would mean OPs want is probably going to be quite doable.

If you want to be tanky with heals i’d suggest you go with Clerics (I’ve been told Magi’s is good for guardian with a certain trait), however make sure you don’t go pure heals, that’ll never happen. Your healing will help out your team a little bit, but you should absolutely be using boons and that more.

Also, if you’re trying to tank in PvE you need to bring a good amount of CC. CC will both kitten off the mob to make it focus you (especially if you’re in melee of said mob), and it’ll inhibit it from getting to your team, and hurting you.

Also keep in mind that you may want to run the current PvE content with friends or guildies and stay away from pugs, otherwise they’ll just kitten and moan about you not stacking or doing enough damage. What i’ll normally do is make a group with 2 other friends and just say in the LFG notification that we’re not zerker and aren’t going to play like a normal zerker group so don’t expect it.

My zerker ranger has completed every PvE content currently available with little difficulty. No matter what Anet has in store, zerkers will find a way to cheese it.

You do realize the fact you’ve completed every CURRENT PvE content in zerker means absolutely nothing right? This content isn’t going to be on the same level as the challenging content from the sounds of it. This current content seems like it was a disastrous failure from how the devs talk about it compared to heart of thorns, so i wouldn’t say you’ll be cheesing your way through it until the next content comes out.

We are already cheesing SW with the exception of copper that needs condi.

Vizardlorde.8243:

Durzlla.6295:

Quarktastic.1027:

Durzlla.6295:

One thing a lot of people don’t seem to realize is that the zerker meta wont hold up in the challenging content in Heart of Thorns, colin brohanson has even said that you’ll need a variety of roles and gear sets in order to complete it, which would mean OPs want is probably going to be quite doable.

If you want to be tanky with heals i’d suggest you go with Clerics (I’ve been told Magi’s is good for guardian with a certain trait), however make sure you don’t go pure heals, that’ll never happen. Your healing will help out your team a little bit, but you should absolutely be using boons and that more.

Also, if you’re trying to tank in PvE you need to bring a good amount of CC. CC will both kitten off the mob to make it focus you (especially if you’re in melee of said mob), and it’ll inhibit it from getting to your team, and hurting you.

Also keep in mind that you may want to run the current PvE content with friends or guildies and stay away from pugs, otherwise they’ll just kitten and moan about you not stacking or doing enough damage. What i’ll normally do is make a group with 2 other friends and just say in the LFG notification that we’re not zerker and aren’t going to play like a normal zerker group so don’t expect it.

My zerker ranger has completed every PvE content currently available with little difficulty. No matter what Anet has in store, zerkers will find a way to cheese it.

You do realize the fact you’ve completed every CURRENT PvE content in zerker means absolutely nothing right? This content isn’t going to be on the same level as the challenging content from the sounds of it. This current content seems like it was a disastrous failure from how the devs talk about it compared to heart of thorns, so i wouldn’t say you’ll be cheesing your way through it until the next content comes out.

We are already cheesing SW with the exception of copper that needs condi.

Zerker guardians can cover copper with burning alone. Because lolburning.

Mightybird.6034:

most of your points are just bs. ele blasting a water fields is a crap ton of healing for instance. guardian with above build can heal himself from 0 to full. I dunno what more heal you want.

or a staff ele using autoattack attuned to water.
On the other hand camping a single element is not a very good ele …

Hwarang.4789:

Hi, i want to talk about GW2’s absence of any VIABLE tanking and healing play styles.

I really enjoy the role of a healer and a tanker but i feel that in GW2 as of now, i can’t create a build of any class that can solely do any of the two.

“Tank” in MMOs usually means a tanky character that is able to hold the aggro. There are a few bosses who will focus the one who hit them first for the entire fight but that might be a bug. So, even if you were able to create a pure tank build you wouldn’t be able to fullfill your chosen role as you won’t hold the aggro of the bosses/mobs as this game isn’t designed that way.
You can play with all thieves though and you will be the only one who’s being targeted.

OP, i understand your frustration.

I have this similar frustration in other MMO as a hybrid player. My character was not wanted, i cannot heal, i cannot tank, i can do good dps but not as good as most dpser out there. I can join high end dungeon because my guild leader take me along. I wa s being carried over, i was not actually wanted….

My last fight in that game, i was being late to the world boss fight my party is doing, and i missed the debriefing. My heavy armor character can’t even take one hit from the world boss and bleed to death because healer are too busy to heal my guild leader tank, while all the rest dps step aside to watch the fight. (i missed the debriefing that dps should stay back and watch…. LOL) The fight was actually done by 3 players, a tank and 2 healers. The tank fight the boss, a healer heal the tank and the 2nd healer heal the 1st healer. What is the point of bringing 2 dpser for all they do is stand outside and watch?

Since then i left that game and start looking for mmo that don’t rely on healer and tank to survive a fight.

OP, you are more lucky as you can find tons of game that support your play style, while GW2 is the only bread i suitable for me.

I’ll comment only this cuz everything else was already covered

In WvW, it feels like a dogfight where everyone just runs around trying to kill each other as fast as possible. There is no order, there is no tactical positioning of players. It doesn’t matter if you’re up front or way at the back.

It may feels like this if you yourself run around like a dog but try to play with organized WvW guilds and you will realize that there is no content in the game with greater order and emphasis to tactical positioning anywhere else in the game. Every single player needs to have very specific build (most of the time very supportive) and play style which correspond to the whole strategy. Also communication is crucial.
tl;dr – you are absolutely clueless

Hidori.3472:

let me quote J. Colin:

I think some of my point was either misunderstood or lost here, in particular reading Nikes comments on the youtube section so I’ll try and clarify more simply:
We like the way combat works right now, we really don’t plan to change it much other than add more options with elite specs. It works the way we intended: you can play control, support, and DPS actively. To folks who prefer to define by the holy trinity, Gw2 doesn’t force you to pick one of the three from heal, tank, or DPS and only do that – it blends a mix depending on your build and allows you to actively swap roles or soft play between roles. Our goal was to remove the forced singular role per you’re locked into, people often mistake this as saying gw2 has no trinity elements, that isn’t true – we just don’t believe in a forced role per for Gw2 for the reasons I covered in the live stream.
That said the point I really wanted to make in the live stream was the issue with the combat system in PvE isn’t the combat system. It’s that the mobs and encounters we have provided so far very rarely allow/encourage you to make use of the combat system as intended. There are some exceptions, but one of our goals with HoT is to help allow more room for players to experience the full range of the combat system in PvE. From the common world mobs up to the challenging group content we will talk about later, we are asking our design team to design encounters in PvE more focused on using the system we have built.
Hope that helps a bit! – CJ

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3czh8f/wooden_potatoes_guild_wars_2_new_maguuma_teaser/ct0zl4g

Well, not specifically in this one, but people have assumed that it’s all maps and dungeons, except starter maps.

Healing builds were nerfed with the last patch

Many builds lost over 300+ healing, which can only partly regained by traits,
The actual skills seem to have been nerfed even further while healing was already one of the worst scaling and therefore unrewarding stats to take..

Healing can be usefull when your build is completely build to maximize gains from healing (clerics) but even in this case it became less powerfull 1800 max went back to 1500 max for a 15% reduction but zealots or other minor healing builds lost 300 and went from 1100+ to 800 a 27% reduction. many skills and conditions really scale horrid… with multippliers often being percentages or even promilages of the original value… BUT when these would be too high a healer would instantly promote facetanking due to removal of any chance of dying. making any and all skill unimportant.

But in all cases healing is a niche in Gw2, and only seldomly usefull.. I used my healing builds during the start of gw2 (clerics warrior shout heal, mace shield cleric guard)

I can safely say this is no longer relevant in 16 of my 17 characters, (I still own a nomads/clerics guardian it is a 20k HP guardian with 3450 armor and 1650 power it also wields 1500 healing and full shout cleansing. it can clean 10 conditions every 30 seconds and have cleanses to spare.) All builds still running heal specs are now based on zealots. All those are fun builds I use them in l80 (EXP) dungeons, they focus mostly on utility support and normal DPS

To be honest, those “roles” are quite viable, just not on demand with PvE metas. You can build extremely tanky/healy builds, have fun, and complete all content. ANet has made everything viable-even conditions are better now, IMHO.

Unless they drastically change the AI, meta-players want the most DPS possible, plus utilities that enhance said DPS. Is this bad? Not ideal, but nothing stops a player from player tankier/“healy” roles, other than themselves, perhaps by paying too much mind to whatever meta is out there.

In short, they are viable, effective, and useful-just not optimal if speed is all what you are concerned about. ANet has given players that like those roles plenty of ways to emulate “tanks”/“healers”, even without the infamous Trinity system-it’s up to the player whether they find these fun/fitting relative to the content they wish to do.

Playing with like-minded players, is ultimately what I would recommend.

I think gather like minded players and play through contents with tanky and healy build is viable, not the meta, not the majority; still able to finish contents without problem.

It is much better than contents that enforce a tank and healer, which result parties without tank and healer cannot complete.

OP, can you see the differences?

GW2 allow parties to play soft trinity, viable but not the meta; trinity mmo don’t allow parties to have no tank and healer…. the choice is there, majority player just don’t prefer.

What about setup a guild names [Trinity] and find guildees shared the same taste.

Einlanzer.1627:

Healing Power is tricky to balance, for sure, but currently it is a little on the weak side for group content, and way on the weak side for solo content.

My biggest problem with it is how useless it is if you aren’t running a full party support build. It is the single most useless stat by a very large margin if you’re just building a hybrid character or want to mix a little of it into your build.

I think the main problem is in the balance of healing skills. Skills that only heal you need to benefit substantially more from healing power than group heals should.

You can blame that on the way they build attrition/mitigation vs negation into the game play. The entire PvE combat tends to float around very sensitive thresholds. You either survive an extra hit, or you get overwhelmed by the number of incoming damage sources. You simply can’t mitigate enough damage over time to do traditional tanking against the number of mobs where the role would be beneficial.

Colin stated quite plainly, not even 2 weeks ago now (POI E25), that it wasn’t that they “never” wanted tanks or healers in the game. They didn’t necessarily want “no holy trinity.” It was more they didn’t want us locked into the mentality that x class = y role. Which many of us (myself included) misunderstood when they originally talked about their set up.

Playing a tank or playing a more support/heal type role is very doable in the game, it’s just not desirable because it isn’t a necessity with the current mob AI. It’s why zerk and dps are king. Colin also states that there really isn’t any challenging content in PvE that really requires the use of these additional play types; however, that is something HoT is supposed to fix.

Feel free to watch the POI episode if you haven’t: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KI9PQjWoPV4

Around 4 minutes, Colin starts talking about revenant, and how additional play types like tank and healing are going to be important components for whatever this new “challenging content” is. Around 6 minutes is when he states that they never said that they didn’t want tanks and healers.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Colin stated quite plainly, not even 2 weeks ago now (POI E25), that it wasn’t that they “never” wanted tanks or healers in the game. They didn’t necessarily want “no holy trinity.”

And yet Colin did say that they did want, “no holy trinity.”

Throwing the holy trinity out the window.
(The Holy trinity) as a core game mechanic is tired.
We can do something better than (the holy trinity).
Lets not do (the holy trinity).
we have a combat system that doesn’t need (the holy trinity) and works better without it.

Colin Johanson:

“I think one of the core ones for me is taking the holy trinity [of MMO character classes] – you have your front line, you have your healer and you have your ranged character, basically – and just throwing it out the window.
We’re basically saying, listen, this as a core game mechanic is tired, we can do something better, we can do something more interesting than this. Let’s not do it, let’s try to do something else. And that’s what we’ve spent many years now perfecting and working on, and getting to the point that we feel we have a combat system that doesn’t need it and, we feel, works better without it."

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-04-14-guild-wars-2-how-to-make-mmos-better-interview

Throwing the holy trinity out the window.
(The Holy trinity) as a core game mechanic is tired.
We can do something better than (the holy trinity).
Lets not do (the holy trinity).
we have a combat system that doesn’t need (the holy trinity) and works better without it.

There are a plethora of other games with trinities, and imo they all are boring as dirt.

I actually enjoy gw2 combat as its emphasis is on player skill and understand rather than raw stat allocation.

TexZero.7910:

There are a plethora of other games with trinities, and imo they all are boring as dirt.

I actually enjoy gw2 combat as its emphasis is on player skill and understand rather than raw stat allocation.

Raw stat for damage optimization and telegraph enemy eviest hits, play with scenario LoS against ranged damage etc, this is basic movement in all games… ive been doing spvp since wvw is serving test purposes, a combat wont last more than 4-5 seconds it is to easy to damage the target, i consider myself a bad(mediocre low) player in spvp and im wreckign faces by just pressing buttons and see high damage everywhere.

Fulldamage based(in a sense of being the easy way to acomplish something) games are AS bad as games that are heavy built on trinity mechanics.

Ashen.2907:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Colin stated quite plainly, not even 2 weeks ago now (POI E25), that it wasn’t that they “never” wanted tanks or healers in the game. They didn’t necessarily want “no holy trinity.”

And yet Colin did say that they did want, “no holy trinity.”

Throwing the holy trinity out the window.
(The Holy trinity) as a core game mechanic is tired.
We can do something better than (the holy trinity).
Lets not do (the holy trinity).
we have a combat system that doesn’t need (the holy trinity) and works better without it.

Colin Johanson:

“I think one of the core ones for me is taking the holy trinity [of MMO character classes] – you have your front line, you have your healer and you have your ranged character, basically – and just throwing it out the window.
We’re basically saying, listen, this as a core game mechanic is tired, we can do something better, we can do something more interesting than this. Let’s not do it, let’s try to do something else. And that’s what we’ve spent many years now perfecting and working on, and getting to the point that we feel we have a combat system that doesn’t need it and, we feel, works better without it."

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-04-14-guild-wars-2-how-to-make-mmos-better-interview

Throwing the holy trinity out the window.
(The Holy trinity) as a core game mechanic is tired.
We can do something better than (the holy trinity).
Lets not do (the holy trinity).
we have a combat system that doesn’t need (the holy trinity) and works better without it.

Yeah I remember reading that once upon a time too. Yes, he said they were throwing it out the window, but again, that’s still not “we never want holy trinity in our game.” Different things. Yes, they even went so far as to rebrand the “roles” as dps, support, and control to help break us out of the traditional holy trinity mind set. It blew up in their face. Unfortunately, I don’t think they are always the best at fully communicating what they are going for. I think he would have been better off had he said that they were tossing the base set up for the trinity out the window, the tying of roles to specific class types. As opposed to simply saying what he did.

They have always said that its not that they don’t want defined roles, its that they don’t want one’s class to be what defines the role. Taking that into context with the rebranding of role names, their previous statements about trinity, etc. yeah, I see how we came to the conclusions that we did.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Around 6 minutes is when he states that they never said that they didn’t want tanks and healers.

Which is funny, when one of their many mantras was getting away from the holy trinity. Although I suppose they might argue that they meant that any one class filled just one role, but instead could fill several.

Morfedel.4165:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Around 6 minutes is when he states that they never said that they didn’t want tanks and healers.

Which is funny, when one of their many mantras was getting away from the holy trinity. Although I suppose they might argue that they meant that any one class filled just one role, but instead could fill several.

Well given what they have said in the past and what they continue to say, I think that was what they were going for. They are just really bad at communicating it.