Guild Wars 2

That’d require a complete overhaul of the game, the loot and all classes.

Not going to happen, just go back to WoW if you like this trinity thing. What i see in this topic are a bunch of sourgrapes that will always find something to whine about and will never be satisfied. People that want their hands to be held during the game.

Nothing wrong with the combat system. GW2 does have roles. Just not rigid.

Encounter mechanics need to be more complex to encourage teamwork. Defined roles don’t neccessarily make for better combat.

The combat system can still be improved, however…

..I am pretty sure this game still needs to mature, WoW took a while to mature as well back during it’s classic days. ANet is still figuring out how to do it properly.

Fuz.5621:

Well, you said it. You “die and run back”, scrub.

Charming! Insulting people just because…. Nevermind, it isn’t worth the effort.

Have a Happy New Year!

Kakeru.2873:

Fuz.5621:

Snowy.9580:

wildcode.5403:

The lack of the holy trinity(healer/dps/tank) in GW2 means we must change the playing style that we’ve grown lazy with by relying on the trinity in other games. GW2 is not “just” another MMO, GW2 redefines how we play MMOs and if we don’t change the lazy playing style that we have grown accustomed to, then we are left feeling like we don’t have a place in the game.

Because the tactics of “Die & run back” is sooo much fun, and only second to that all time favourite “Help! All 3 trash mobs are on me & I’ve no energy left to roll about like a Jedi with!”.

Yup, the game is fine without any kitten trinity or anything else… like fun!

Tactical tip of the day: “Ok, all drop combo fields and hope no one dies!”

I don’t “die and run back”. Not after my first runs on the dungeons.
Learn and adapt.
You just suck at this game and you’re blaming the game itself for your lack of skill.

It’s funny you say that, because there is a path in CoF which you MUST use the “die, revive and run back” tactic otherwise it is virtually impossible. And don’t even try to argue that, this is due to a players skill or build because it’s clearly bad game design.

White knights like you are going to be the downfall of this game, it’s the reason SWTOR just fell apart, it’s blind fanboy fanbase who don’t know the meaning of constructive critisim and think their game is perfect in every single way, then wonder why the game ends up dead within a year.

Not all criticism is constructive, and the negative posts in this thread (OP included) have largely not been. No one playing this game regularly thinks the game is perfect. I certainly don’t.

It’s when people’s issue with the game is some biased hyperbole that is thrown out as undeniable fact is when people start showing up saying, “This clearly isn’t the game for you, why do you need to tell everyone else to stop having fun?”

That’s not fanboyism. That’s a reasonable question. If you’re not having fun with the game, why start flaming the game for not being your cup of tea?

Kakeru.2873:

Fuz.5621:

Snowy.9580:

wildcode.5403:

The lack of the holy trinity(healer/dps/tank) in GW2 means we must change the playing style that we’ve grown lazy with by relying on the trinity in other games. GW2 is not “just” another MMO, GW2 redefines how we play MMOs and if we don’t change the lazy playing style that we have grown accustomed to, then we are left feeling like we don’t have a place in the game.

Because the tactics of “Die & run back” is sooo much fun, and only second to that all time favourite “Help! All 3 trash mobs are on me & I’ve no energy left to roll about like a Jedi with!”.

Yup, the game is fine without any kitten trinity or anything else… like fun!

Tactical tip of the day: “Ok, all drop combo fields and hope no one dies!”

I don’t “die and run back”. Not after my first runs on the dungeons.
Learn and adapt.
You just suck at this game and you’re blaming the game itself for your lack of skill.

It’s funny you say that, because there is a path in CoF which you MUST use the “die, revive and run back” tactic otherwise it is virtually impossible. And don’t even try to argue that, this is due to a players skill or build because it’s clearly bad game design.

White knights like you are going to be the downfall of this game, it’s the reason SWTOR just fell apart, it’s blind fanboy fanbase who don’t know the meaning of constructive critisim and think their game is perfect in every single way, then wonder why the game ends up dead within a year.

Lol I’m sorry, but I’m far from being any kind of fanboy for any of these newer MMOs – trinity or not! They are after the console kiddie market & it’s doing more harm than good.

Not all criticism is constructive, and the negative posts in this thread (OP included) have largely not been. No one playing this game regularly thinks the game is perfect. I certainly don’t.

It’s when people’s issue with the game is some biased hyperbole that is thrown out as undeniable fact is when people start showing up saying, “This clearly isn’t the game for you, why do you need to tell everyone else to stop having fun?”

That’s not fanboyism. That’s a reasonable question. If you’re not having fun with the game, why start flaming the game for not being your cup of tea?

Well said.

It is just getting so tiresome to read all these spiteful posts each time i log onto the forum. People like the OP will whine about literally everything, they will never be satisfied with the game.

Why don’t they just quit? Are they holding on to some vague hope that the developers are going to change -their- game into what they see as the perfect game?

Kakeru.2873:

Fuz.5621:

Snowy.9580:

wildcode.5403:

The lack of the holy trinity(healer/dps/tank) in GW2 means we must change the playing style that we’ve grown lazy with by relying on the trinity in other games. GW2 is not “just” another MMO, GW2 redefines how we play MMOs and if we don’t change the lazy playing style that we have grown accustomed to, then we are left feeling like we don’t have a place in the game.

Because the tactics of “Die & run back” is sooo much fun, and only second to that all time favourite “Help! All 3 trash mobs are on me & I’ve no energy left to roll about like a Jedi with!”.

Yup, the game is fine without any kitten trinity or anything else… like fun!

Tactical tip of the day: “Ok, all drop combo fields and hope no one dies!”

I don’t “die and run back”. Not after my first runs on the dungeons.
Learn and adapt.
You just suck at this game and you’re blaming the game itself for your lack of skill.

It’s funny you say that, because there is a path in CoF which you MUST use the “die, revive and run back” tactic otherwise it is virtually impossible. And don’t even try to argue that, this is due to a players skill or build because it’s clearly bad game design.

White knights like you are going to be the downfall of this game, it’s the reason SWTOR just fell apart, it’s blind fanboy fanbase who don’t know the meaning of constructive critisim and think their game is perfect in every single way, then wonder why the game ends up dead within a year.

Don’t make me laugh, man. “Constructive criticism” you say.

More than half of this so-called “constructive criticisms” I read around here are just beautified rants dressed-up in some kind of pseudo-analytic arguments that, if all things fail, ultimately spirals down into one form of condescending sarcasm or another.

Sure, we can all do this – pretend we are all right in our own ways, and better and smarter than some random other person because we have the safety of anonymity, right? You’re so smart you can even predict the fate of this game one year down the road. Hmm, maybe you’re right.

But don’t think for one second that our intelligence are so low we can’t tell what is going on around here, really. A rant is a rant.

No, thre “trinity” is an old and tried crutch that needs to be thrown out.

every new game that come out with a Tank/healer/dps fram only flags around its un-originality , complasancy and the fails because it is just another rehash of a tried old system that people are sick of.

I will not play another MMO that is based on Tank/healer/dps. Period.

To imply that that is the only way of fixing the current problems is foolish.

No, it doesn’t need to come back.

However, what I do feel that the game could use is better use of the combos (combo field and finishers). Make them more important in group situations. I think people will have a better sense of teamwork if that were the case.

But having specialized tank, damage, heal roles? No thanks, there are a million games out there for that type of play style.

Thundersteel.6591:

No, thre “trinity” is an old and tried crutch that needs to be thrown out.

every new game that come out with a Tank/healer/dps fram only flags around its un-originality , complasancy and the fails because it is just another rehash of a tried old system that people are sick of.

I will not play another MMO that is based on Tank/healer/dps. Period.

To imply that that is the only way of fixing the current problems is foolish.

The trinity also causes lazy game design.

Look at WoW, most encounters are more or less the same. There’s a tank, a healer, some DPS, and fire on the floor.

White knights like you are going to be the downfall of this game, it’s the reason SWTOR just fell apart, it’s blind fanboy fanbase who don’t know the meaning of constructive critisim and think their game is perfect in every single way, then wonder why the game ends up dead within a year.

Doomprophets like you cause the downfall of this game. Constructive criticism? All i see are biased rants.

@OP: you used your opinions as fact to back up your other opinions. GW2 touts itself as a game without the ‘holy-trinity.’ It’s gonna stay that way. And that’s how I’m guessing most of the players want it too, since we all started playing knowing this fact. If you want the trinity, go play a game that has it. The PvE encounters may need polishing, but that’s not cause for completely changing the style of the game.

Snowy.9580:

Kakeru.2873:

Fuz.5621:

Snowy.9580:

wildcode.5403:

The lack of the holy trinity(healer/dps/tank) in GW2 means we must change the playing style that we’ve grown lazy with by relying on the trinity in other games. GW2 is not “just” another MMO, GW2 redefines how we play MMOs and if we don’t change the lazy playing style that we have grown accustomed to, then we are left feeling like we don’t have a place in the game.

Because the tactics of “Die & run back” is sooo much fun, and only second to that all time favourite “Help! All 3 trash mobs are on me & I’ve no energy left to roll about like a Jedi with!”.

Yup, the game is fine without any kitten trinity or anything else… like fun!

Tactical tip of the day: “Ok, all drop combo fields and hope no one dies!”

I don’t “die and run back”. Not after my first runs on the dungeons.
Learn and adapt.
You just suck at this game and you’re blaming the game itself for your lack of skill.

It’s funny you say that, because there is a path in CoF which you MUST use the “die, revive and run back” tactic otherwise it is virtually impossible. And don’t even try to argue that, this is due to a players skill or build because it’s clearly bad game design.

White knights like you are going to be the downfall of this game, it’s the reason SWTOR just fell apart, it’s blind fanboy fanbase who don’t know the meaning of constructive critisim and think their game is perfect in every single way, then wonder why the game ends up dead within a year.

Lol I’m sorry, but I’m far from being any kind of fanboy for any of these newer MMOs – trinity or not! They are after the console kiddie market & it’s doing more harm than good.

Yep that is so true :/ They are going after the casuals or people who don’t like mmos and this will be their downfall. Something new will come along like TESO and people espcially the console fans here will flock to that.

It’s funny out of all my 10 friends who quit in the first 2 months, the first one to reach max level was the one friend who hated all mmos and would play then extremely casually, he mentioned how he loved GW2 and it felt so innovative and called it the best mmo ever…………….until he got to 80 and got bored within a week and quit.

Kakeru.2873:

It’s funny you say that, because there is a path in CoF which you MUST use the “die, revive and run back” tactic otherwise it is virtually impossible. And don’t even try to argue that, this is due to a players skill or build because it’s clearly bad game design.

Who did you run path 2 of CoF with, four drowned rabbits? I’m sorry, but it is NOT virtually impossible. Out of the countless times I’ve run this dungeon, only the useless PUGs with the typical Charr GS Warriors with CoF gear that spam Frenzy all day end up resorting to kiting because they get floored in seconds by a sneeze. You can kill pretty much every mob that gets thrown at you until the 80%-90% region, and you can easily keep the remaining mobs engaged until the end, and nobody has to die.

It IS up to the skill and builds of the players, absolutely.

Please don’t try to take this response in the context of “this game is perfect and I’m going to counter everything you say in defence of this wonderful creation”, because this game is nowhere close to perfect. There are a TON of issues, especially some valid points in this thread. However, that is a very bad example.

Erasculio.2914:

This topic has an important lesson, for both ArenaNet and the community.

Classic MMOs create a Stockholm syndrome with grinders. Those games demand people to waste hours and hours and hours playing through content they do not really enjoy, only to get a shiny reward in the end… But sooner or later said reward is shown to be irrelevant, and so all that time spent has been a waste, considering how it was not actually enjoyed. This becomes worse when a MMO shuts down – people are then forced to see the futility in spending all that time doing something they didn’t like doing, in order to get a meaningless reward, effectively being deceived by a MMO developer into waste their lives.

Now, I believe that, deep inside, even grinders realize this. I believe they understand it and keep that anger within themselves, not throwing it against the game that motivated it, but throwing it instead against a surrogate target. We have, thus, the birth of a very interesting creature:

The hater.

Some people are not only displeased with a game – no, they actively want that game to fail. While someone who does not like an aspect of the game would provide feedback, which would be even slightly constructive, all a hater wants is destructive feedback in order to try to hurt the game as much as possible. All this anger is probably a way to unconsciously manifest the anger of being used and effectively deceived by other MMOs; still, all MMOs have haters, and they are rather easy to spot.

The main trait of a hater is that they are hoping the game will fail. A few will say it themselves. Example:

Vasham.2408:

Sadly a post by CC Eva overrides your anecdotal evidence. As for your claim that the game has “no subscribers” since it’s buy to play? Well here’s the hard truth. Fewer players mean fewer cash shop purchases, which means less money for NCsoft, which means unhappy corporate bigwigs. That will equal the death of GW2, and soon.

There are other signs of a hater. They are extremely fond of hyperbole, usually trying to describe their (derogatory) opinion as fact. Example:

Vasham.2408:

It’s a well known fact that GW2’s PVE is horrible.

They lie. Often. Example:

Vasham.2408:

GW2 is pretty much a single player RPG with a multiplayer lobby. It’s not really an MMO, the devs even said so.

They claim to have stopped playing the game and that it’s dying, despite still trying to talk about recent game updates. Example:

Vasham.2408:

Decided to get a refund and go back to WoW. Never thought it would come to this, but honestly it’s better than the alternative of giving Arenanet my time and letting them keep my money. Any smart person would also drop this dyeing game.

They claim that everyone with counter arguments to their claims is a fanboy/white knight/whatever, usually as a way to hide their own lack of counter arguments. Example:

Vasham.2408:

Opinion invalidated due to tired, canned zealot response.

They also have 100% posts complaining about the game, and are frequent posters in topics about some kind of criticism (as well as in any kind of topic praising the game, telling others they are wrong). It’s not a surprise that the two other major haters of this forum have already made a few posts in this topic.

Now, the issue here is how those haters are not trying to help the game. They are not offering constructive criticism. Quite the opposite – they would destroy the game if they could (repressed anger is something rather ugly, isn’t it?), so the best they can do is offer destructive criticism and try to poison the community.

There is a lesson here for ArenaNet: not all feedback is good. Not everyone should be listened to. Most of the main issues of Guild Wars 1 rose because ArenaNet listened to what players asked and implemented it without thinking of the long term impact of those ideas. The same issue has already appeared in Guild Wars 2 with the addition of Ascended gear, due to how a vocal minority asked for more things to grind. ArenaNet has to learn that not all feedback is useful.

There is also a lesson here for the community. Haters love attention. The best help other players can give them is by replying to them and giving them an excuse to post more. Whenever you see a hater, just report him and ignore. Wasting time with arguments is the same as trying to have a conversation with a wall.

(For the records, about the Trinity: it says wonders that someone who wants GW2 to fail wants to add the holy trinity to the game.)

You’re wise, man. No sarcasm here. I’m gonna shut up now.

Erasculio.2914:

This topic has an important lesson, for both ArenaNet and the community.

Classic MMOs create a Stockholm syndrome with grinders. Those games demand people to waste hours and hours and hours playing through content they do not really enjoy, only to get a shiny reward in the end… But sooner or later said reward is shown to be irrelevant, and so all that time spent has been a waste, considering how it was not actually enjoyed. This becomes worse when a MMO shuts down – people are then forced to see the futility in spending all that time doing something they didn’t like doing, in order to get a meaningless reward, effectively being deceived by a MMO developer into waste their lives.

Now, I believe that, deep inside, even grinders realize this. I believe they understand it and keep that anger within themselves, not throwing it against the game that motivated it, but throwing it instead against a surrogate target. We have, thus, the birth of a very interesting creature:

The hater.

Some people are not only displeased with a game – no, they actively want that game to fail. While someone who does not like an aspect of the game would provide feedback, which would be even slightly constructive, all a hater wants is destructive feedback in order to try to hurt the game as much as possible. All this anger is probably a way to unconsciously manifest the anger of being used and effectively deceived by other MMOs; still, all MMOs have haters, and they are rather easy to spot.

The main trait of a hater is that they are hoping the game will fail. A few will say it themselves. Example:

Vasham.2408:

Sadly a post by CC Eva overrides your anecdotal evidence. As for your claim that the game has “no subscribers” since it’s buy to play? Well here’s the hard truth. Fewer players mean fewer cash shop purchases, which means less money for NCsoft, which means unhappy corporate bigwigs. That will equal the death of GW2, and soon.

There are other signs of a hater. They are extremely fond of hyperbole, usually trying to describe their (derogatory) opinion as fact. Example:

Vasham.2408:

It’s a well known fact that GW2’s PVE is horrible.

They lie. Often. Example:

Vasham.2408:

GW2 is pretty much a single player RPG with a multiplayer lobby. It’s not really an MMO, the devs even said so.

They claim to have stopped playing the game and that it’s dying, despite still trying to talk about recent game updates. Example:

Vasham.2408:

Decided to get a refund and go back to WoW. Never thought it would come to this, but honestly it’s better than the alternative of giving Arenanet my time and letting them keep my money. Any smart person would also drop this dyeing game.

They claim that everyone with counter arguments to their claims is a fanboy/white knight/whatever, usually as a way to hide their own lack of counter arguments. Example:

Vasham.2408:

Opinion invalidated due to tired, canned zealot response.

They also have 100% posts complaining about the game, and are frequent posters in topics about some kind of criticism (as well as in any kind of topic praising the game, telling others they are wrong). It’s not a surprise that the two other major haters of this forum have already made a few posts in this topic.

Now, the issue here is how those haters are not trying to help the game. They are not offering constructive criticism. Quite the opposite – they would destroy the game if they could (repressed anger is something rather ugly, isn’t it?), so the best they can do is offer destructive criticism and try to poison the community.

There is a lesson here for ArenaNet: not all feedback is good. Not everyone should be listened to. Most of the main issues of Guild Wars 1 rose because ArenaNet listened to what players asked and implemented it without thinking of the long term impact of those ideas. The same issue has already appeared in Guild Wars 2 with the addition of Ascended gear, due to how a vocal minority asked for more things to grind. ArenaNet has to learn that not all feedback is useful.

There is also a lesson here for the community. Haters love attention. The best help other players can give them is by replying to them and giving them an excuse to post more. Whenever you see a hater, just report him and ignore. Wasting time with arguments is the same as trying to have a conversation with a wall.

(For the records, about the Trinity: it says wonders that someone who wants GW2 to fail wants to add the holy trinity to the game.)

Couldn’t have said it any better. Good job.

/thread

While I don’t fully agree with the OP he raises a valid topic in that GW2 dungeons are going to have problems in the future, because there’s no way for the devs to add difficulty except for abilities that forces the players to dodge. This is great on Lupicus, Subject Alpha and Kholer.

But will it be great in a year? I don’t think so.

Vasham.2408:

Jandus.2834:

Vasham.2408:

projectcedric.6951:

Vasham.2408:

projectcedric.6951:

What do you mean ‘needs to come back’?

Its not like you bought it knowing it has a trinity system, and then they changed it. This game never had a trinity system as far as I know.

Do you know what is the cost of redesigning the classes to become a trinity system (assuming you are right that trinity is better)? Might as well make a new game.
;
That being said, I still don’t understand why would you force yourself on GW2 if you liked the trinity system and you know that this game doesn’t have it.

I didn’t force myself onto anything. I knew this game wouldn’t have the trinity and I was naive enough to think Arenanet would be capable of making it work. Clearly my hope was misplaced.

Clearly it was.

So what are you still doing here?

As a dissatisfied customer it is my right to voice my dissatisfaction and advise the creator of said sub-par product how to improve and maybe win back my support.

Sure it is. But to think for a second that Anet is going to totally revamp the fundamental game mechanics that the game is built upon is just totally naive. If you truly believe the game is broken because of the lack of a trinity then don’t play. <shrug>

“No criticism. No questioning glorious leader Arenanet. Find the game perfect or leave.”

Sounds like the SWTOR forums. We all saw how well that game did with fanboys touting this kind of attitude.

This isn’t a “fanboy” thing. The devs have openly talked about the “no trinity” core mechanics since before the game was released. It is how the game was designed there is no debate!

The combat system is fine; it’s the actual encounters that need to be worked on.

The trinity is just a lazy, rigid, linear system of combat that needs to change. This doesn’t mean that all new games that come out need to toss it out completely, but the trinity system needs a huge overhaul if a developer wants to use it when designing challenges. Gw2 just took another path completely allowing players more versatility in how they adapt to a challenge.

Anet needs to present more challenges that have a player focus on overall strategy and adaptability than on isolated playstyle roles in combat; kind of like a game of Go.

• Divide and Conquer: Enemies need to be grouped together more, but in different units, or blocks, so that players can and need to “pull” the group apart.
• Enemies on crossing paths, patrols: This means having to potentially time when you attack your target(s), as if you don’t find the right time to attack another enemy group might wander into the combat area and join in, making things more difficult.
• Advanced Zerg detection scaling: Events that have a potential zerg incoming (aka a large number of players within a set area in the greater area of the event; the detection would register all players in that 25% area of the map and scale to that number), need to scale by and emphasize number of enemies and sub events (both are necessary as number of enemies slows down the zerg initially, and the sub events then divide the zerg and direct the smaller groups away; start events off with veterans even). The sub events would still be considered part of the main event and would have to be designed in a way that severely threatens the overall success of the event (so that it doesn’t turn into a WvW zerging scenario). This would be a reverse divide and conquer scenario; instead of the players doing the dividing, the players become the ones whom are divided.

These are the kind of things that Anet needs to work on; players would have a more challenging time in a good way (i.e. not just scaling hp, def, etc.), it has good potential to require far more team work, etc.

On a side, in WoW after every encounter I knew I could have played better. I messed spell priority a bit, or I popped my cds a while too fast. I don’t have that feeling in gw2 there is no self improvement.

And then, on second thought, you realise that it means absolutely nothing.

No self improvement? Just continue dying then, with your glasscannon specced DPS-non support character.

Agreed Vasham. Don’t worry, you’re not alone in this view. The vocal minority in this thread is just that, a vocal minority.

GW2’s dungeons were the most disappointing for me. It was just chaos without any organization. If they fix this, i’ll be back.

TWMagimay.9057:

A few things…

1. Anybody who thinks trinity is “tank and spank”, “hp whack-a-mole”, “no skill/challenge”. You are right. You also must be extremely bad players. What trinity does is give you options. You can be bad and bored or you can be good and take encounters to the next level.

2. I frankly didn’t know what I was getting myself into when I bought GW2. I knew they didn’t have a “holy trinity”, but nobody could tell me how they did it. I had it down to 2 possibilities. Everybody is a dps with wanna-be support. Or every class can fulfil any role. I figured, it must be the second one, which would’ve made it the perfect game for me since all my healers(at least those I played for more than 2 days) could tank, support and dps at a decent lvl(basically, i’d build a jack of all trades from a healer). Sadly, it was the first option. I love everything else about this game or at least could love if I had the option to play the way I wanted to. Instead I’m just getting hyped about ArcheAge and hoping it comes out in 2013.

There was more, but I got distracted xD

This is a great post… and really, what I thought as well.

The roles should still exist, but they should be able to be filled by any class at any time. This would be a step enough away from the traditional trinity and class based roles, but also give that structure, depth and variety to combat that it currently and totally lacks.

Zeldain.5710:

TWMagimay.9057:

A few things…

1. Anybody who thinks trinity is “tank and spank”, “hp whack-a-mole”, “no skill/challenge”. You are right. You also must be extremely bad players. What trinity does is give you options. You can be bad and bored or you can be good and take encounters to the next level.

2. I frankly didn’t know what I was getting myself into when I bought GW2. I knew they didn’t have a “holy trinity”, but nobody could tell me how they did it. I had it down to 2 possibilities. Everybody is a dps with wanna-be support. Or every class can fulfil any role. I figured, it must be the second one, which would’ve made it the perfect game for me since all my healers(at least those I played for more than 2 days) could tank, support and dps at a decent lvl(basically, i’d build a jack of all trades from a healer). Sadly, it was the first option. I love everything else about this game or at least could love if I had the option to play the way I wanted to. Instead I’m just getting hyped about ArcheAge and hoping it comes out in 2013.

There was more, but I got distracted xD

This is a great post… and really, what I thought as well.

The roles should still exist, but they should be able to be filled by any class at any time. This would be a step enough away from the traditional trinity and class based roles, but also give that structure, depth and variety to combat that it currently and totally lacks.

Indeed. Instead of Rift’s “You can be anything you want!” stance, we got “You can be nothing! Jump about like a Fairy!” stance. Lesson learned I guess.

Happy New Beer to one and all!

The problem is no true healing class. Guardian regen/heals are laughable. GW1 countered the lack of trinity with Monks/Ritualist, direct healing classes.

I laughed when I saw a post saying “Every man for himself”. How does that define group play? Each group member needs to depend on on another. That’s what makes the group. Putting a big emphasis on the word group here.

I’ve only ever done AC story mode, and that alone has put me off dungeons. Since Pre-release, I’ve done 1 dungeon. That pretty much sums up their design flaw. Mobs spam AoE’s, they hit like trucks, there is no organization, but I suppose “every man for himself” solves it amirite?

People saying “Nah, you just sux at dunjunz, get sum skillz”. If I could reply to this in the form of a facepalm, it would destroy my own face and everything behind. The vast majority of players are not hardcore gamers. And many of them are not ultra-skilled teenagers. Some people like to play for fun. The story and exploration. How can we experience this when we’re getting hacked down by a 2 man patrol?

I really hope they re-work Guardian (perhaps give it a weapon set for direct heals/support, I hoped staff/scepter+focus would be it, but no). Or bring back the Monks to add some order and balance to PvE again.

I really don’t like complaining about this game, since it’s one of very few MMOs that have got me hooked, plus it’s like a reward for playing GW1 all these years, but I had to add my 2 pence on the issue of dungeons and group play.

Erasculio.2914:

This topic has an important lesson, for both ArenaNet and the community.

Classic MMOs create a Stockholm syndrome with grinders. Those games demand people to waste hours and hours and hours playing through content they do not really enjoy, only to get a shiny reward in the end… But sooner or later said reward is shown to be irrelevant, and so all that time spent has been a waste, considering how it was not actually enjoyed. This becomes worse when a MMO shuts down – people are then forced to see the futility in spending all that time doing something they didn’t like doing, in order to get a meaningless reward, effectively being deceived by a MMO developer into waste their lives.

Now, I believe that, deep inside, even grinders realize this. I believe they understand it and keep that anger within themselves, not throwing it against the game that motivated it, but throwing it instead against a surrogate target. We have, thus, the birth of a very interesting creature:

The hater.

Some people are not only displeased with a game – no, they actively want that game to fail. While someone who does not like an aspect of the game would provide feedback, which would be even slightly constructive, all a hater wants is destructive feedback in order to try to hurt the game as much as possible. All this anger is probably a way to unconsciously manifest the anger of being used and effectively deceived by other MMOs; still, all MMOs have haters, and they are rather easy to spot.

The main trait of a hater is that they are hoping the game will fail. A few will say it themselves. Example:

Vasham.2408:

Sadly a post by CC Eva overrides your anecdotal evidence. As for your claim that the game has “no subscribers” since it’s buy to play? Well here’s the hard truth. Fewer players mean fewer cash shop purchases, which means less money for NCsoft, which means unhappy corporate bigwigs. That will equal the death of GW2, and soon.

There are other signs of a hater. They are extremely fond of hyperbole, usually trying to describe their (derogatory) opinion as fact. Example:

Vasham.2408:

It’s a well known fact that GW2’s PVE is horrible.

They lie. Often. Example:

Vasham.2408:

GW2 is pretty much a single player RPG with a multiplayer lobby. It’s not really an MMO, the devs even said so.

They claim to have stopped playing the game and that it’s dying, despite still trying to talk about recent game updates. Example:

Vasham.2408:

Decided to get a refund and go back to WoW. Never thought it would come to this, but honestly it’s better than the alternative of giving Arenanet my time and letting them keep my money. Any smart person would also drop this dyeing game.

They claim that everyone with counter arguments to their claims is a fanboy/white knight/whatever, usually as a way to hide their own lack of counter arguments. Example:

Vasham.2408:

Opinion invalidated due to tired, canned zealot response.

They also have 100% posts complaining about the game, and are frequent posters in topics about some kind of criticism (as well as in any kind of topic praising the game, telling others they are wrong). It’s not a surprise that the two other major haters of this forum have already made a few posts in this topic.

Now, the issue here is how those haters are not trying to help the game. They are not offering constructive criticism. Quite the opposite – they would destroy the game if they could (repressed anger is something rather ugly, isn’t it?), so the best they can do is offer destructive criticism and try to poison the community.

There is a lesson here for ArenaNet: not all feedback is good. Not everyone should be listened to. Most of the main issues of Guild Wars 1 rose because ArenaNet listened to what players asked and implemented it without thinking of the long term impact of those ideas. The same issue has already appeared in Guild Wars 2 with the addition of Ascended gear, due to how a vocal minority asked for more things to grind. ArenaNet has to learn that not all feedback is useful.

There is also a lesson here for the community. Haters love attention. The best help other players can give them is by replying to them and giving them an excuse to post more. Whenever you see a hater, just report him and ignore. Wasting time with arguments is the same as trying to have a conversation with a wall.

(For the records, about the Trinity: it says wonders that someone who wants GW2 to fail wants to add the holy trinity to the game.)

Awesome job Erasculio.2914, I’ll try to sum all that up in one video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUvFeyGxaaU

Turgut.4397:

The problem is no true healing class.

I’ve only ever done AC story mode, and that alone has put me off dungeons. Since Pre-release, I’ve done 1 dungeon. That pretty much sums up their design flaw. Mobs spam AoE’s, they hit like trucks, there is no organization, but I suppose “every man for himself” solves it amirite?

People saying “Nah, you just sux at dunjunz, get sum skillz”. If I could reply to this in the form of a facepalm, it would destroy my own face and everything behind. The vast majority of players are not hardcore gamers. And many of them are not ultra-skilled teenagers. Some people like to play for fun. The story and exploration. How can we experience this when we’re getting hacked down by a 2 man patrol?

I really hope they re-work Guardian (perhaps give it a weapon set for direct heals/support, I hoped staff/scepter+focus would be it, but no). Or bring back the Monks to add some order and balance to PvE again.

I seriously Hope they NEVER do anything remotely like that. The minute they do, the minute everyone as a comminuty demands them for dungeons. No true healing class is NOT the problem

Also, honestly, if you are really having that much problem with dungeons, you are part of the problem. A little team work goes a long way. Healing is fine, the culture of not communicating is the problem, if people manage their own health and use a few utilities that help the party instead of LAWL DAMAGES ! you would have a much easier time. Introducing a dedicated healer doesnt solve the problem of poor gaming culture, it compunds it.

I got about half way through this thread and just stopped.

I’m new here but I’ve played MMO’s since the EQ and SW:Galaxies days in and out and all I have to say is…I thought there was no troll race in this game.

But I guess I was highly mistaken. Someone give this kid his $59.99 back so he can go back to playing WoW. Let him take his Blizzard fan boy shirt with him too.

This game is fantastic. Plain and simple.

As someone who played WoW for 6.5 years (and other trinity MMOs before that), and a “hardcore” raider for the majority of that time, I very much disagree that the trinity itself is the reason WoW pve (specifically large scale raiding, WoW 5mans have been a joke for years) was “better”. Instead, Blizzard is simply better at, or more likely puts a lot more effort into, coming up with deep, complicated, precisely tuned raid bosses that are intended to occupy people for months.

The simple fact that a healer role exists means nothing more to my gameplay as a non-healer in WoW than it does here. Clump up to help them do their role? No different than standing in a ranger’s healing spring and using a blast finisher. Otherwise I’m still just avoiding the avoidable damage I’m designed to and passively taking the unavoidable damage the healer is intended to heal. IMO no designer so far has ever gotten the tank and healer roles exciting enough to get an adequate amount of the common mmo player “OMG BIG NUMBERS!!” dpsers to want to play those roles instead, thus creating major obstacles to simply forming a group in the first place. Hence WoWs need for queues where random people line up to have the privilege.

I totally agree that stuff like the Karka event was crap, and the 3 dragons are “meh,” (in a gameplay sense, they are pretty good in an aesthetic sense) but throwing the trinity back in won’t do a kitten thing.

Thundersteel.6591:

Turgut.4397:

The problem is no true healing class.

I’ve only ever done AC story mode, and that alone has put me off dungeons. Since Pre-release, I’ve done 1 dungeon. That pretty much sums up their design flaw. Mobs spam AoE’s, they hit like trucks, there is no organization, but I suppose “every man for himself” solves it amirite?

People saying “Nah, you just sux at dunjunz, get sum skillz”. If I could reply to this in the form of a facepalm, it would destroy my own face and everything behind. The vast majority of players are not hardcore gamers. And many of them are not ultra-skilled teenagers. Some people like to play for fun. The story and exploration. How can we experience this when we’re getting hacked down by a 2 man patrol?

I really hope they re-work Guardian (perhaps give it a weapon set for direct heals/support, I hoped staff/scepter+focus would be it, but no). Or bring back the Monks to add some order and balance to PvE again.

I seriously Hope they NEVER do anything remotely like that. The minute they do, the minute everyone as a comminuty demands them for dungeons. No true healing class is NOT the problem

Also, honestly, if you are really having that much problem with dungeons, you are part of the problem. A little team work goes a long way. Healing is fine, the culture of not communicating is the problem, if people manage their own health and use a few utilities that help the party instead of LAWL DAMAGES ! you would have a much easier time. Introducing a dedicated healer doesnt solve the problem of poor gaming culture, it compunds it.

Then you haven’t played GW1. Ofcourse there will be demand for such a role, but you make it sound well out of proportion. You can communicate well, but that doesn’t stop your limited, oh so limited utilities being outmatched by one mob. Do you expect everyone to sit through 5 mans using skype? No trinity in GW1, so how did we counter HM missions and dungeons? People depended on each other. CC, interrupts, support, and mainly the healer. Healers cleared up the chaos with the lack of trinity back then, now you either play solo or zerg world event bosses. Or you could ‘communicate’ with your team about how you want to die, teleport, repair, die.

@Dikeido

You call us haters, others would call us passionate.

I have been playing MMO’s for YEARS!!! GW2 is one of the most abysmal experiences of my life!! And I TRIED to like it! I had such invested plans in a guild that I made a website, tried recruiting people before the game went live, invested in many of the GW2 fan sites.

When the game began, I hit the ground running, and despite my normal alt-a-holic trend, I stuck with ONE class the whole game, deciding to venture out and make alts when I got my main to level 80. And when I was level 80, I tried to find anything and everything to keep my intrest, but it slowly dwindled until I couldn’t even muster the stomach to log in.

Evaluating my experience in GW2, I’ve had a LOT of time to think of all the reasons that it failed. They are as diverse and varied as the game.

The lack of teh holy trinity was one of them, but not particularly the main reason. It’s not just the lack of a trinity, its how the replaced it that bugged me. Like people have said, innovation for innovation sake isn’t necessarily a good thing. In this case, its truly detrimental to GW2. I understand, some people don’t find fault in GW2’s methodology here, and we are all entitled to our own opinion, but think about the BIG thing that people are harping upon about the ‘lack’ of roles.

Those that complain (and I am of a mind with them) that the roles that do exist are a sloppy hodgepodge of DPS zerg fest mentality, solo-oriented ‘team play’. There is no dynamic, its just bland and repetitious.

There is no synergy between classes, synergies that players CAN play off, and combo fields just isn’t what I am talking about. Combo fields are weak, you CAN exist without them, and 90% of teh time, you do. Noone feels they are contributing a group, or they feel they are carrying it. And aggro is yet to be defined and PROVEN a theory. It’s just random for now, and that lack of control a player can exert upon a mob means that you dodge and kite until it dies.

It’s not that I want tank/healer/DPS, I just want a blend of roles, that when people are using together, have definition and have function, and synergy between other classes. And I would take a holy trinity if that is what it took.

Posted this in another thread but it belongs here too

A system that could work would be a weapon specific mode for each dungeon. I would like to see this done as I greatly miss healing and being part of a trinity group with assigned roles. It would also add some variety to the explore paths of the dungeons. This mode could reward the same 60 tokens, so people will not feel obligated to play it.

When you enter you will be faced with a selection of one of each 5 weapons/sets. Lets say:
Staff: Big AOE nuking style burst damage (Big to compensate for 2 not being DPS based)
Hammer: Strong melee sustained damage (Big to compensate for 2 not being DPS based)
Bow: Hyper condition spreading damage (Big to compensate for 2 not being DPS based)
Scepter + focus: Powerful healing skills (GW1 Monk style)
Sword + shield: Strong defensive (Full out Tank)

This could use the same system Conjure weapons use, but with long duration that will guarantee they remain until the dungeon’s end. To advance each person must pick up a weapon, and once they walk out of the start zone they cannot drop it until the end. The weapon is no longer available once it is picked. To complete you need each person to have one of the special weapons. To make things interesting, let people keep their stats, traits and slot skills.

teviko.6049:

GW2 is one of the most abysmal experiences of my life!!

You lived a blessed life or your a master of huge over-exaggeration.

All I can gather from this whole thread is apparently, in today’s world, personal opinions are facts.

No. No No No.

Look at what you’re saying. “kite and dodge” and “Singular gimmicks?”

And the “Trinity” will make things better? GW2 has its problems, but the kitten trinity won’t fix them. I’ve been playing MMOs for a long time as well, and I’m sick of the stupid trinity. I’ve played all 3 parts of the trinity, and they bore the hell out of me. GW2 doesn’t need this, not now, not ever. The lack of a trinity didn’t do anything to GW2’s PVE.

The trinity does not belong in this game. Period. They’re not going to rework everything just to implement the trinity in a game that was built around not having one. That’s just naive. If you want a trinity, by all means go back to WoW.

But you are NOT the majority of this population, you are NOT the voice of this population, you are NOT the leader of a revolution. The trinity would kill this game. It was designed without the trinity in mind. Don’t delude yourself into thinking it’ll be put back in.

It’s dated. I’m sorry you don’t like change. Goodbye.

~~Sincerely, someone who’s been playing mainly healer for the past 10 years of MMOs, understands the Trinity quite well, and still doesn’t want that kitten in GW2. This is coming from someone who still chooses massive healing and tankiness on her Guardian. (So I could heal AND tank if I wanted to? And I could also change my build so very easily? And you think trinity > This system?)

PS: Coming off as “Holier than Thou” and demanding things makes you look very pretentious and insults don’t help your case out.

Rustypipes.6238:

All I can gather from this whole thread is apparently, in today’s world, personal opinions are facts.

I blame CNN and Facebook for this.

I agree with OP but it’s pointless to argue with blind fanboys. They’ll throw things around that they’ve never experienced as fact, as if they’ve EVER ran a heroic raid, or actually believe their friend when he tells them he bots heroic raids lol. (Hint: Not possible)

Anyway, ANet won’t change this horrible game. It’ll bite them soon enough if it hasn’t already. When they lose their playerbase maybe something will finally change for the better like removing DR and stop punishing their own playerbase, adding true tactics to fights instead of LOLDODGESKILL

I’d have to write a 100 page essay just to explain all the tactics in different fights in WoW, all GW2 has is oneshot mechanics and dodge you get to work with, not to mention no defined roles so it’s just mindless zerg.

Sokina.8041:

No. No No No.

Look at what you’re saying. “kite and dodge” and “Singular gimmicks?”

And the “Trinity” will make things better? GW2 has its problems, but the kitten trinity won’t fix them. I’ve been playing MMOs for a long time as well, and I’m sick of the stupid trinity. I’ve played all 3 parts of the trinity, and they bore the hell out of me. GW2 doesn’t need this, not now, not ever. The lack of a trinity didn’t do anything to GW2’s PVE.

The trinity does not belong in this game. Period. They’re not going to rework everything just to implement the trinity in a game that was built around not having one. That’s just naive. If you want a trinity, by all means go back to WoW.

But you are NOT the majority of this population, you are NOT the voice of this population, you are NOT the leader of a revolution. The trinity would kill this game. It was designed without the trinity in mind. Don’t delude yourself into thinking it’ll be put back in.

It’s dated. I’m sorry you don’t like change. Goodbye.

~~Sincerely, someone who’s been playing mainly healer for the past 10 years of MMOs, understands the Trinity quite well, and still doesn’t want that kitten in GW2. This is coming from someone who still chooses massive healing and tankiness on her Guardian. (So I could heal AND tank if I wanted to? And I could also change my build so very easily? And you think trinity > This system?)

PS: Coming off as “Holier than Thou” and demanding things makes you look very pretentious and insults don’t help your case out.

Question: What is your Horse’s name? He seems very tall.

Mackdose.6504:

lothefallen.7081:

I see no depth in spamming abilities for side-car buffs that are just a heaped on amalgamation of a mush-brain combat system. I’m saying that these buffs, these roles, these attributes…they aren’t well defined or extremely tangible in combat or in group play. Your team’s life doesn’t hinder on that regen, that vigor…why? I’ve got two dodges and a “heal me up” button and i think anyone who thinks there are well defined, gratifying roles to the combat in this game is severely delusional. There’s not enough risk / reward. The combat doesn’t revolve around the tightness and depth of the skill system, you just kite and dodge out of red circles. You sound like what i was preaching to doubters back before release. Too bad i opened up my eyes and actually experienced the game for the mess that it is. This game is not deep, engaging, or well designed. Truth is, it’s a solo game with multi-player options. Terrible loot system, terrible dungeon and encounter design, no group integrity, no meaning to roles or playing with other people outside of a numbers game.

So basically, you just don’t like the system and have no intention on discussing the game further than “It’s a casual, boring, zerg, spam-fest because I say so.”

Frankly, you’re wrong. If you think blind, chill, cripple and immobilize aren’t “tangible” you need to set the bong down and pay attention.

Players who are in fractals above 30 seem to think that tightness of the skill system and execution of fights matter. Why are there in-depth discussion on strategies for the fights if what you’re saying were true?

Do you have any points to add that aren’t just negative hyperbole?

Do you? Prove what i said to be objectively wrong and what you say to be objectively right. You’re just another mushbrain casual fanboy in a premature mental state still hopped up on the pre-release hype train. You probably only do PvE dungeons and like them because they are so faceroll easy and shallow so you have to put in very little effort for the shiny loots that make you play.

Turgut.4397:

The problem is no true healing class. Guardian regen/heals are laughable. GW1 countered the lack of trinity with Monks/Ritualist, direct healing classes.

….but GW1 did not lack the trinity.

Monk/ritualist were not “counters” to the trinity, they were dedicated healers, which is one of the three aspects of trinity game play (they function as the “healer” spot in tank/DPS/healer).

GW2 operates on a trinity of its own in practice, a much more loose trinity (damage/support/control) which works far, far better. No one is obligated to fulfill any particular role in said trinity (though doing so will make your party more well-rounded) and can play the sort of character they want to play.

No true healing class is a blessing, not a weakness, in GW2. If you honestly can’t handle healing yourself in combat, or else design your character to fulfill a support role in combat, then I’m inclined to inform you that you’re doing it wrong and maybe this isn’t the game for you. Because honestly, it’s not that hard to either build yourself as a support character, or (if you’re not the “healer” type) at least self-manage your heals.

That’s never going to happen. It’s the polar opposite of Anet and every fan’s vision for the game. It was always advertised as defying the trinity. It will continue to do so. Face it, the trinity is not coming back.

No thanks please. this no holy trinity thing allows my character style to exist without it being a detriment or deadweight to a group. It’s a mix of tankiness and supportive buff-giving/condi-removing abilities and utilities. If it all came down to who hits the hardest, who can take the punishment, and who heals the stongest, no one would roll any other class but guard (tank), thief/warrior/ele (dps) and ele/guard(heal).

Vasham makes a good point that many bosses require simple strategies to overcome them, or simply with a large group of people; hence are not very challenging at all.

However, he does not then make supporting arguments on how a trinity will directly improve GW2 PvE. Instead he attempts to anticipate and counter common arguments against the “holy trinity”. Importantly, as I alluded to earlier, counter arguments alone do not then necessarily provide direct support that a holy trinity would improve GW2 PvE.

Vasham.2408:

Without the trinity to provide that basic framework encounters boil down to a murky cloud of damage dealing and kiting. There’s nothing to support more advanced mechanics

Not necessarily, some strategies to defeat bosses may require kiting but Arenanet could create different mechanics which require superior skills other than kiting. Importantly, the absence of trinity does not mean more advanced mechanics cannot be introduced. For example, you can introduce complex phases for bosses requiring more than kiting such as positioning, target focus and order. In fact, a holy trinity can even limit advanced mechanics so that they can be overcome in a tank, healer, DPS group setup.

Vasham.2408:

Tanks, DPS, and Healers all had specific sub-duties in encounters, mechanics to watch for, and skills to master beyond their base role in the raid. I would dare say the trinity required a higher skill ceiling than any role a class can play in GW2.

In GW2, Arenanet can introduce advanced mechanics requiring sub-duties, mechanics to watch for, and skills to master beyond functional roles without a trinity. Also, arguably, GW2 requires a higher skill ceiling because you have to be self-sufficient and constantly vigilant. You cannot rely on a tank or a healer to save you. You have to help yourself.

Personally, it is not the absence of a holy trinity that makes GW2 PvE “horrible” (easy requiring little skill or though, especially with a large group of people). It is because complex boss mechanics haven’t been introduced yet which require superior coordination and intricate strategies not only on an individual level but at a group level as well, even as a large group of 12 to 24 people, to overcome them.

HeeHee.5208:

Also, arguably, GW2 requires a higher skill ceiling because you have to be self-sufficient and constantly vigilant. You cannot rely on a tank or a healer to save you. You have to help yourself.

It may require a higher solo skill ceiling… but that’s the problem. This is an MMO. There is no GROUP skill ceiling whatsoever. Helping yourself == single player game. Without team mechanics, it’s a very poor MMO.

That’s what the trinity can help bring to the party.

Also, relying on healers isn’t lazy – it’s part of the gameplay that players (healers, especially) happen to enjoy.

There are some group skills like coordinating use of skills like reflect on a boss, but there definitely is room for improvement in this area.

Importantly, a trinity does not automatically become the solution, you can introduce team mechanics without it.

I didn’t say relying on healers is lazy. However, it can make encounters easier because you would not have to focus as much on your health and staying alive.

EDIT: After all, that is the purpose of the healer, to heal, a trinity MMOs is not going to make that any less important even if it can mean more challenging for others because if that was the case, then they can’t rely on him / her and have another role to fulfil while doing everything else they have to do.

you want trinity? go play a game that has the system. period.

in the meantime, there are a ton of things that could be done to make the PvE more interesting.

they have said they replaced the idea of tank, healer and DPS with control, support and damage. however, as far as i can see, damage really seems to take precedence when in groups. on the individual level, knowing how support and control works makes the game vastly more enjoyable and interesting. its just when put in a group when things feel a little faceroll and meh. i really like the dungeons, they’re interesting and nothing like anything i’ve seen in WoW and the other mmos ive played. i like that it isn’t just trash boss trash boss trash boss win. i like that there are more events and and puzzles and other such things that require more cooperation than most boss fights in most games. sure the bosses are lacking and usually arent too interesting, but ill take their word that these issues will be addressed with an update in the next few months.

with that said, what i really think should also be taken into consideration along with more interesting encounters is a greater emphasis on the control and support rolls. right now, it only feels like a few classes and builds have an emphasis on group support while the rest that have any support at all are more for the individual. same goes with control. to see an expansion on these two rolls, plus bosses/trash that require a good knowledge of control and support the PvE in GW2 could be vastly improved without the need of introducing the same old same old trinity system from other games.

there are better ways to doing dungeons and the likes that just copying what everyone else does and i think GW2 takes a step in the right direction, it just needs to be refined and reworked some.

Mackdose.6504:

lothefallen.7081:

I’d also like to add that, while GW2 has roles, they can be very intangible and ineffectual in the broad scheme of team play.

I’d like to know where you’re getting “ineffectual” from.

Blind, Cripple, and Chill are controlling team-oriented abilities, and are effective at saving the squishy teammate from certain death.

Regen, Vigor, Protection, and Aegis are supporting team-oriented abilities offering damage mitigation either directly or indirectly.

A team using these abilities to their full potential will succeed faster and more reliably than a team who doesn’t, and these are just a handful of the team-oriented boons and conditions.

This was pretty standard in GW1, too. If you had a good prot/condition setup, that usually took care of damage until heavy sustained stuff flooded in.

Someone earlier posted that they liked the lack of a trinity because, even in GW1, they had a hard time finding groups because their warrior had such a hard time getting taken by groups— people wanted set classes, and that was it. I can confirm that; I started as a monk but switched to rit/mo and then ele/rit and ele/mo to heal; elementalists in particular have massive pools of energy so can use the huge heals over and over that monks usually can’t.

This was a build developed by eles to counter the fact that they became ineffective in hard mode (so no one wanted to take them) due to elemental resistances ramping up. However, despite being just as effective as a monk (as I’d played one for years), I couldn’t get taken by a group! It didn’t matter that it was just as effective in PvP, PvE, even if I explained it, people wanted certain classes with certain builds and that was all because they did not understand the depth of the system, only that ‘this build is the best’ without knowing why.

I miss healing, but I don’t miss those attitudes. Or most WoW pugs’ attitudes toward healers, which is basically ‘if I stand in it and die it’s your fault’ and ‘if you are OOM because I am standing in bad, it is your fault’. And yet, if no one died, DPS congratulated themselves and had a bad attitude if I felt accomplished, too.

Monks on GW1 got that crap, and you know what we did? Refused to pug. Almost ALL of us. It actually caused a huge kerfuffle and ground stuff to a halt.

I don’t know if folks realise what they’re asking for.

Didn’t read the thread for two reasons. One, it’s long. Two, I have a fairly good idea of the content.

From what I gleamed from my slow scrolling to the bottom, it’s exactly as I guessed. There are those who believe GW2 is perfect, the Fanboys as they tend to be called. Then there are their opposites. Those who believe GW2 does everything wrong and will never become anything. I’ll leave the job of naming those people to someone else.

Either way, neither side uses much reason. It becomes “them vs us”. Insults are thrown. Blah blah blah. Topic changes from “Gw2” to “Why you’re wrong, and you’re always wrong. Yo momma”

Unfortunately, the rational people firmly placed between these extremes are quiet, not to mention few and far between.

As for an actual response to the topic at hand, I disagree mostly. There are very few things that would turn me off of GW2, and the return of the Trinity is one of them.

I’ve only experienced this “Chaos” when I was a newb.

Do I agree with the OP? Yes. Do I think Anet will do anything? No. I know 29 other people that feel the same way. People ultimately will vote with their wallet. I never played WoW before anyone goes there.

Personally, I think Anet made an amazing world in GW2 and then it falls apart after that. It is like a bad attempt at a cross over to console game. Almost like they made it to be able to port it in the future. Sorry, if I wanted to do jumping puzzles I would fire up Tomb Raider or Mario … I resent them in an MMO.

Without roles most fights devolve to dodge festivals … nothing elegant about this combat system. My concern in the Betas was that GW2 was trying to be too many different things and would master none. They proved my concerns to be accurate.

It is a beautiful game world though.

I am somewhat in agreement with OP. No I am not a fan of the ‘trinity’.

My beef with the trinity was that it inspired dreadfully boring gameplay where groups of people spend minutes at a time wailing on some not-too-smart mob possessive of grossly inflated HP and damage.

Anet ditched the ‘trinity’ but forgot to change-up the style of gameplay, leaving us with occasionally frustrating difficulty spikes, incomprehensible aggro mechanics, and a struggle to remain conscious and engaged while we afk auto-attack yet another trash mob (like in trinity-based games before this).

Yeah, it’s merely my personal opinion – but the PvE in this game is tedium personified, particularly in dungeons – no, I’d rather not waste my precious gaming time whittling-down the unreasonably large HP pool of effectively harmless trash mobs. Honorable mention to the ridiculous respawn rates in the open-world.

Look to Demon’s/Dark Souls for an RPG that manages to achieve a satisfying degree of challenge in combat while still being…. fun.

I don’t even need to read anymore of this(after first page). However, I’ll ask one question:

Kalvix is that you???

I never saw something so stubborn and trolly as him and this “Vasham” sounds awful kalvixy…

True this game still has the trinity to a degree but not one class is exceptional at any one thing anymore, water ele heals better than any class and pretty much every other class has some type of dps. Control and support are scattered throughout the classes but are still there and the vision from the devs simply fell flat on its face due to poor game mechanics as described by thousands of customers.

Only lack of imagination and cost prevent real innovation and the ability to lose the trinity all together in this game. Boss fights mechanics that are circa 20 years ago and trying to get people to cover and compliment each other in combat, the original idea, simply does not work.

There is that, all that work, the devs will not just trash it because a few thousand people do not like the way the pve or pvp mechanics are.

We have a saying, hard head, soft kitten

Sylv.5324:

This was pretty standard in GW1, too. If you had a good prot/condition setup, that usually took care of damage until heavy sustained stuff flooded in.

Someone earlier posted that they liked the lack of a trinity because, even in GW1, they had a hard time finding groups because their warrior had such a hard time getting taken by groups— people wanted set classes, and that was it. I can confirm that; I started as a monk but switched to rit/mo and then ele/rit and ele/mo to heal; elementalists in particular have massive pools of energy so can use the huge heals over and over that monks usually can’t.

This was a build developed by eles to counter the fact that they became ineffective in hard mode (so no one wanted to take them) due to elemental resistances ramping up. However, despite being just as effective as a monk (as I’d played one for years), I couldn’t get taken by a group! It didn’t matter that it was just as effective in PvP, PvE, even if I explained it, people wanted certain classes with certain builds and that was all because they did not understand the depth of the system, only that ‘this build is the best’ without knowing why.

I miss healing, but I don’t miss those attitudes. Or most WoW pugs’ attitudes toward healers, which is basically ‘if I stand in it and die it’s your fault’ and ‘if you are OOM because I am standing in bad, it is your fault’. And yet, if no one died, DPS congratulated themselves and had a bad attitude if I felt accomplished, too.

Monks on GW1 got that crap, and you know what we did? Refused to pug. Almost ALL of us. It actually caused a huge kerfuffle and ground stuff to a halt.

I don’t know if folks realise what they’re asking for.

Congratulations, you just described mostly every PUG experience in most MMOs since the dawn of time. Now if only there was a thing where you gathered a group of people together, whom with you could play on a regular basis, where everyone knew each other and appreciated what others were doing. We could call them something like… guilds!

Also, what you described is not by any means de facto trinity mechanics, it’s just bad design plain and simple. Nowhere in the Bible does it say “And God spake and his command was thus: there shalt be only one healer class and only healer class there shalt be. He shalt reign supreme upon the others and no other class shalt desire take his place.”

For the last time, before bowing out of this mass of stupidity, hyperbole and oversimplification that this thread is: having distinct roles does not equal gameplay where a tank stands still soaking damage, while the healer keeps him topped up and DPS chops away. In fact hardly any of the modern trinity based games are even close to such oversimplified scenarios anymore. Also, there is absolutely no need to have just one or two tank/healer classes, on the contrary, most modern MMOs have multiple classes able to fill those roles and have their unique mechanics and approaches to them.