Guild Wars 2

dlonie.6547:

Having spent a lot of time with the dungeon subforumers watching, observing, mimicking, waiting to be accepted as one of their own….my impression has been that they’re bored. After the kazillionth time running a path, they don’t want to spend an hour in it killing everything and ranging bosses down. It’s not fun anymore. They’re trying to keep things interesting and challenging by speedclearing and soloing.

They want more challenging content. More Lupis. More archdiviners. More bosses that push them to learn something new. Oneshotting more trash isn’t going to give them a thrill — this is why we’ve been asking for more dungeons, preferably with more challenge.

It’s created a huge rift between exp and inexp players. I personally think a hard mode or similar would be an excellent solution to the social problems this is creating as it would naturally separate these types of players, but ANet has said “No way” to that. :-/

The problem isn’t that Fractals are too short. Its that 5 of them isn’t a significant addition for 2 years of waiting. Like I said, in terms of entertainment value and content, 5 shards is about the equivalent of a single dungeon path. If they added more of them it’d be a little better, though I’d personally prefer to see an new dungeon and everything that comes with it instead.

Thank you for providing an actual complaint somewhere at least slightly within this category. While I’ve said before that “Just because you’ve done it, doesn’t mean it isn’t there”, I didn’t mean that adding more endgame for EXPERIENCED players would hurt the game, I was simply saying, for inexp. players, there’s plenty to go around.
Thank you for being one of the only sober/non-enraged people here.

I always thought that the endgame in GW2 was purely cosmetic (until certain releases ruined that). After you hit level 80, you had nothing else to do but get the armor and gear that fit your play style and the look you want. And you didn’t have to play a single dungeon, or enter a single WvW or PvP area to do it. You could get your gear by running around in a level 1-15 zone if you wanted to. The entire game was the endgame. Some armor looks were locked behind dungeon tokens, and some gear stats were locked behind karma in the highest level areas (like Soldiers and Magi). Some was harder to get than others, and some options didn’t exist at all (like crafting said gear stats) but generally, you weren’t that limited in your options and you could go about getting your stuff anyway you wanted to.

With the original endgame, no one was more powerful than anyone else, and the only difference was skill, and how cool your armor/weapon looks. We’ll call the original endgame ‘Horizontal Endgame’

…..

Well, lets fast forward a little. Anet introduced Ascended gear with Fractals of the Mists. This ascended gear has infusion slots to further enhance your gear, but its only really useful in Fractals and nowhere else (marginally useful in WvW for those min/maxers among us).

A little further forward, and Anet introduced WvW levels and skills. I think those were great additions because it ended up making level 80 a sort of soft cap on your level. This means that you still have some vertical progression to go after you hit level 80, which in other MMO’s is the true endgame, get better stats than everyone else.

Sure you can go for looks in other MMO’s and call it endgame, but not many games have the diversity of armor looks that GW2 has (even with the ‘trench coats’ that medium armor has, I can still look like a pirate, a cowboy, and a ninja just by switching a little armor and colors around. nothing comes close). Well call this ‘Vertical Endgame’

Believe it or not, Vertical Progression has actually been added, the traditional MMO endgame that many people are used to. The problem is that it was added to less than 15% of the total game (not including PvP). Agony and WvW ranks, and all the other game improvements made to those game modes don’t apply to the rest of the game. The rest of the game (PvP not included since balance must always exist there) has been still getting additions by the old horizontal formula, and have not improved in any significant way.

You have the choice to go about those two differing versions of ‘Vertical Endgame’, or you can keep doing the same old ‘Horizontal Endgame’ like you’ve been doing for two years, even with the Living World releases.

That’s where I think the disconnect exists. Fractals have a endgame that can be forever achieved to higher and higher heights, but the other 33 dungeon paths don’t, so some people don’t consider those dungeons ‘endgame’ anymore because they don’t get any harder and eventually become an exercise in triviality. WvW has ranks which do make you stronger, and reaching the top is so long term, only a few dozen people have managed it. The rest of the game doesn’t take advantage of the increase skills and power you gain from those ranks, so some people don’t consider 85% of the game ‘endgame’ anymore (and the difference between unbalance PvP(WvW) and PvE don’t really matter anymore at that point). Progressing in those two completely different endgames don’t actually help you anywhere else.

I still think that what was and always is defined as ‘endgame’ for GW1 and GW2 has never changed (your look, not your power), but additions made by Anet have thrown that out the window to many people, and just looking better than everyone else is no longer enough. Their preferred method of play, their endgame, is obsolete now, thanks to Arenanet, because their preferred method of play (be it regular dungeons or just doing events on the map, or crafting legendary weapons, or doing mini games, or doing anything not related to WvW or Fractals) is obsolete.

Those are my thoughts on the issue…..

Zodiaci.3218:

I’m not “Making stuff up”, bloomin’ tossehs.
I never said the endgame was “Just added.” I said it “Opens up” when you reach 80.
Orr, Southsun, Drytop. Areas.
Fractals, (Say what you wish, I don’t care. They are dungeons, it’s really not hard.)
I’m not sure where you’re getting this “Dungeon Grinding” kitten from, I don’t do that very much, but different strokes, different folks, I guess. (Although since you hate it, maybe you shooouuulddn’t dooo it?)
Living World, it’s a new story campaign, I really don’t know how to be more clear.
The endgame does not kittening start at level 1, that’s just some sort of marketing thing, that does not count as endgame.
“Raids”. “Why do you raid?” “To get the best items.” “And what do you use those items for?” “TO RAID WITH”
I’m sorry. Clearly I’ve asked the wrong question, you all clearly view games as a set of features rather than an experience. You must get bored very easily, twitchy twitchy. What else did I expect from gamers?

P.S. If you are this bored of the actual game, then why are you going on a website that you do a kitten ton of reading related to the game on? That makes no sense.

Yes, I know, “It’s been there” isn’t really helping my case… but… IT HAS!
IT’S BEEN THERE SINCE LAUNCH!

It’s not the GAME’S fault that you got through it all, “There is none” and “I finished it.” are completely different things.

No, I’m not “New” to the game in any sense.

What a story.
So I asked on the forum “Why do you not consider this endgame” and half of them said that the things that I listed, which open up after level 80, do not count, and others just proclaimed I was “making them up”.
Others tried explaining to them why it does count, to which they can only respond with “No it doesn’t.” Or quote what THEIR definition of something is, rather than the actual, literal definiton.
They thought that since the things I’ve listed have already been done by them, I was making it up, and again, they put words in my mouth.
Apparently, since their definition of “endgame” has been done in OTHER games, it is automatically boring here, as they’ve done it already. It appears I was wrong to judge this game as an individual game, and should rather have judged it as an experience they’ve already had before in something entirely different.

This doesn’t need to be argumentative but when nearly everyone on here is telling you that you are wrong and exaggerating the state of endgame, then you should be persuaded to look at changing your opinion.

Yes, I agree, there are endgame zones. 3 zones in 2 years? Especially when one has already existed? Thats very subpar even for a game without a subscription fee. Just look at gw1.

No, a fractal is not equivalent to a dungeon no matter how you put it. This isn’t semantics, its the fact that dungeons as we know them consist of a story mode + explore paths(3-4). Fractals as a whole could be considered a dungeon yet individual paths are not.

I’ll reiterate what others have said on here. Its not that orr/drytop arn’t endgame zones or that fractals isn’t a source of endgame, its that these places of the game have been updated so poorly within the last 2 years. Fractals has been updated once since its release…ONCE! What does that tell you about the priority list of Anet? Along with the fact that we’ve had 2 small sized zones in 2 years. It tells you that they have almost everything besides the Living Story on low priority. The same goes for sPvP and WvW.

The still haven’t hit gold with the living story as endgame either. Temporary content didn’t work, and these living story instances won’t either simply because their replay-ability value isn’t anywhere close to that of say a zone or a dungeon(raid/etc)

Zodiaci.3218:

Fractals, (Say what you wish, I don’t care. They are dungeons, it’s really not hard.)

So first a bit off topic but did you remove your first post or was it moderated? Start of the thread looks a bit weird right now.

Anyhow, about the part I quoted: (part of) the game disagrees with you. If fractals were truly meant to be a dungeon there would be no reason for a fractal or a fractal run to not count towards Monthly Dungeon Participation or Daily Dungeon Runner (it does neither the last time I tried). If it starts doing this or have started doing this then I will agree that fractals are dungeons but until that happens, if that happens, I will go by what the game tells me.

Exactly. Do FoTM count towards DDR or MDR? If they do, they are “dungeons”. If they don’t, they aren’t dungeons.

As simple as that. No need to dwell upon it further.

Lissaere.7096:

Zodiaci.3218:

Fractals, (Say what you wish, I don’t care. They are dungeons, it’s really not hard.)

So first a bit off topic but did you remove your first post or was it moderated? Start of the thread looks a bit weird right now.

Anyhow, about the part I quoted: (part of) the game disagrees with you. If fractals were truly meant to be a dungeon there would be no reason for a fractal or a fractal run to not count towards Monthly Dungeon Participation or Daily Dungeon Runner (it does neither the last time I tried). If it starts doing this or have started doing this then I will agree that fractals are dungeons but until that happens, if that happens, I will go by what the game tells me.

Yet the game listed achievements for Fractals for the longest time under the category dungeon. So you should listen to the game. The game is telling you Fractals are a dungeon. Or it was. Not in game right not to check if it’s still true. But it’s been true before the recent patch for the longest time.

Vayne.8563:

Yet the game listed achievements for Fractals for the longest time under the category dungeon. So you should listen to the game. The game is telling you Fractals are a dungeon. Or it was. Not in game right not to check if it’s still true. But it’s been true before the recent patch for the longest time.

Currently it’s listed under general so not true anymore.

Lissaere.7096:

Vayne.8563:

Yet the game listed achievements for Fractals for the longest time under the category dungeon. So you should listen to the game. The game is telling you Fractals are a dungeon. Or it was. Not in game right not to check if it’s still true. But it’s been true before the recent patch for the longest time.

Currently it’s listed under general so not true anymore.

Doesn’t work that way. They made it, and listed it as a dungeon and sub categories got taken off in the reorganization.

That means you’re saying it was a dungeon a month ago, but isn’t a dungeon now. That doesn’t wash. Clearly Anet considers it a dungeon, but a different type of dungeon than the original dungeons.

Vayne.8563:

Lissaere.7096:

Vayne.8563:

Yet the game listed achievements for Fractals for the longest time under the category dungeon. So you should listen to the game. The game is telling you Fractals are a dungeon. Or it was. Not in game right not to check if it’s still true. But it’s been true before the recent patch for the longest time.

Currently it’s listed under general so not true anymore.

Doesn’t work that way. They made it, and listed it as a dungeon and sub categories got taken off in the reorganization.

That means you’re saying it was a dungeon a month ago, but isn’t a dungeon now. That doesn’t wash. Clearly Anet considers it a dungeon, but a different type of dungeon than the original dungeons.

Hey I just used the phrasing that you used in the last two sentences. However I will concede to the subcategory point cause it is after all quite logical that Category: Dungeon Subcategory: Fractals are not the the same as Category: Dungeon Subcategory: Tyria. So I guess we are arguing subcategories when arguing if fractals are dungeons now?

Edit: messed up on quoting.

Lissaere.7096:

Vayne.8563:

Lissaere.7096:

Vayne.8563:

Yet the game listed achievements for Fractals for the longest time under the category dungeon. So you should listen to the game. The game is telling you Fractals are a dungeon. Or it was. Not in game right not to check if it’s still true. But it’s been true before the recent patch for the longest time.

Currently it’s listed under general so not true anymore.

Doesn’t work that way. They made it, and listed it as a dungeon and sub categories got taken off in the reorganization.

That means you’re saying it was a dungeon a month ago, but isn’t a dungeon now. That doesn’t wash. Clearly Anet considers it a dungeon, but a different type of dungeon than the original dungeons.

Hey I just used the phrasing that you used in the last two sentences. (Made them bold). However I will concede to the subcategory point cause it is after all quite logical that Category: Dungeon Subcategory: Fractals are not the the same as Category: Dungeon Subcategory: Tyria. So I guess we are arguing subcategories when arguing if fractals are dungeons now?

Dungeons in most games are just challenging, instanced, multiplayer PvE content, with less people than raids.

That’s always been my definition anyway. But there’s definitely differences between how dungeons are presented in this game and how fractals are presented.

On the other hand, Aetherblade Retreat and Molten Facility were both considered dungeons, and now they’re in Fractals.

I think we should just call them something else entirely. Like IHTOWs (instances harder than the open world).

Think it will catch on?

Vayne.8563:

Lissaere.7096:

Vayne.8563:

Lissaere.7096:

Vayne.8563:

Yet the game listed achievements for Fractals for the longest time under the category dungeon. So you should listen to the game. The game is telling you Fractals are a dungeon. Or it was. Not in game right not to check if it’s still true. But it’s been true before the recent patch for the longest time.

Currently it’s listed under general so not true anymore.

Doesn’t work that way. They made it, and listed it as a dungeon and sub categories got taken off in the reorganization.

That means you’re saying it was a dungeon a month ago, but isn’t a dungeon now. That doesn’t wash. Clearly Anet considers it a dungeon, but a different type of dungeon than the original dungeons.

Hey I just used the phrasing that you used in the last two sentences. (Made them bold). However I will concede to the subcategory point cause it is after all quite logical that Category: Dungeon Subcategory: Fractals are not the the same as Category: Dungeon Subcategory: Tyria. So I guess we are arguing subcategories when arguing if fractals are dungeons now?

Dungeons in most games are just challenging, instanced, multiplayer PvE content, with less people than raids.

That’s always been my definition anyway. But there’s definitely differences between how dungeons are presented in this game and how fractals are presented.

On the other hand, Aetherblade Retreat and Molten Facility were both considered dungeons, and now they’re in Fractals.

I think we should just call them something else entirely. Like IHTOWs (instances harder than the open world).

Think it will catch on?

Sure, although people might be a bit confused the first time we ask for someone to do an IHTOW in game.

Lissaere.7096:

Vayne.8563:

Lissaere.7096:

Vayne.8563:

Lissaere.7096:

Vayne.8563:

Yet the game listed achievements for Fractals for the longest time under the category dungeon. So you should listen to the game. The game is telling you Fractals are a dungeon. Or it was. Not in game right not to check if it’s still true. But it’s been true before the recent patch for the longest time.

Currently it’s listed under general so not true anymore.

Doesn’t work that way. They made it, and listed it as a dungeon and sub categories got taken off in the reorganization.

That means you’re saying it was a dungeon a month ago, but isn’t a dungeon now. That doesn’t wash. Clearly Anet considers it a dungeon, but a different type of dungeon than the original dungeons.

Hey I just used the phrasing that you used in the last two sentences. (Made them bold). However I will concede to the subcategory point cause it is after all quite logical that Category: Dungeon Subcategory: Fractals are not the the same as Category: Dungeon Subcategory: Tyria. So I guess we are arguing subcategories when arguing if fractals are dungeons now?

Dungeons in most games are just challenging, instanced, multiplayer PvE content, with less people than raids.

That’s always been my definition anyway. But there’s definitely differences between how dungeons are presented in this game and how fractals are presented.

On the other hand, Aetherblade Retreat and Molten Facility were both considered dungeons, and now they’re in Fractals.

I think we should just call them something else entirely. Like IHTOWs (instances harder than the open world).

Think it will catch on?

Sure, although people might be a bit confused the first time we ask for someone to do an IHTOW in game.

I honor the old ways? is that a rock band or something? lol

Zodiaci.3218:

P.S. If you are this bored of the actual game, then why are you going on a website that you do a kitten ton of reading related to the game on? That makes no sense.

Some of us care about the state of the game to post feedback.

Vayne.8563:

Lissaere.7096:

Vayne.8563:

Lissaere.7096:

Vayne.8563:

Yet the game listed achievements for Fractals for the longest time under the category dungeon. So you should listen to the game. The game is telling you Fractals are a dungeon. Or it was. Not in game right not to check if it’s still true. But it’s been true before the recent patch for the longest time.

Currently it’s listed under general so not true anymore.

Doesn’t work that way. They made it, and listed it as a dungeon and sub categories got taken off in the reorganization.

That means you’re saying it was a dungeon a month ago, but isn’t a dungeon now. That doesn’t wash. Clearly Anet considers it a dungeon, but a different type of dungeon than the original dungeons.

Hey I just used the phrasing that you used in the last two sentences. (Made them bold). However I will concede to the subcategory point cause it is after all quite logical that Category: Dungeon Subcategory: Fractals are not the the same as Category: Dungeon Subcategory: Tyria. So I guess we are arguing subcategories when arguing if fractals are dungeons now?

Dungeons in most games are just challenging, instanced, multiplayer PvE content, with less people than raids.

That’s always been my definition anyway. But there’s definitely differences between how dungeons are presented in this game and how fractals are presented.

On the other hand, Aetherblade Retreat and Molten Facility were both considered dungeons, and now they’re in Fractals.

I think we should just call them something else entirely. Like IHTOWs (instances harder than the open world).

Think it will catch on?

Thats your own definition of a dungeon vayne. In guild wars 2, there is a very obvious definition of dungeons that can be constructed simply by looking at all the dungeons we have. They all have a storymode, they all have 3-4 explore paths. Fotm is not that yet that doesn’t mean it doesnt’ have content to compete with a normal dungeon.

Fotm is definitely much different than a dungeon because it offers the devs a new way to put in content instead of creating an entirely new dungeon. They can just put in small bits of instanced content instead of an entire path.

The devs have even distinguished between dungeons/fractals in a recent interview. They even its preferrable for them to put in new fractals(2 years from now probably) compared to putting in another path or an entirely new dungeon(which they have never done). This interview obviously sparked enormous uproar in the dungeon community but thats irrelevant.

“Endgame” is basically things to do after you complete the main story.

In GW2 that’s well… almost everything!

But people for some reason mistakely think that “endgame” means “more stuff to do after I’m bored with the existing stuff” when it comes to MMOs.

It’s easy to tear down fallacious arguments, to ridicule them. (Like the post Gaile highlighted).

If we care to be constructive, we shouldn’t just leave it at that. We should try to understand why people feel there is no endgame, when there is factual evidence to the contrary. Why are people who loved this game – theory crafted and strategized and competed for record dungeon times in this game- why are those the people leaving?

There is a lot of frustration fueled exaggeration that goes on. And yes, people need to take responsibility for the way they argue. But to take on the most poorly worded and hyperbolic statements at face value, and not go on to address the valid criticism behind that negative sentiment, is cheap. If we want to be literal, there has been no new 5-man tuned content for 10 months, and from what we’ve been told there will be nothing more in the near future. I think that is enough to warrant concern if you are a dedicated pve player.

This is why there is no “end game”.

There is a vast amount of end game content, but there’s no introduction to it.

After hitting 80 and completing your PS, there’s no introduction to fractals, dry top, the living story, WvW, PvP, ascended gear, legendaries, etc etc etc etc. I could go on and on

rapthorne.7345:

There is a vast amount of end game content, but there’s no introduction to it.

After hitting 80 and completing your PS, there’s no introduction to fractals, dry top, the living story, WvW, PvP, ascended gear, legendaries, etc etc etc etc. I could go on and on

Could you? Because I can do that too.
Open world maps, including Dry Top: Explore them once and you’re done with the map. There is no reason to come back. In Dry Top atleast you have the local currency but after you got everything you want, this map is hardly more interesting than any other map. Fractals and Dungeons? Do them once and you’re done with them story-wise. The only reason to come back is to grind gold to get fluff.
Ascended is one of the fluff you grind for. Legendaries are also fluff you grind for.
WvW and PvP are stale. They’re fun but not interesting enough to keep people engaged for 2 years.

All the content GW2 offers can be divided into 3 parts:
1) The uninteresting part: Open world PvE doesn’t offer anything endgame related stuff.
2) Things you grind: Dungeons, Fractals, Worldboss chains
3) Things you grind for: Legendaries, Ascended stuff, Achievements… Skins

And we could add a fourth category: PvP
PvP and WvW are nice for a while, you can kill people with the fluff you’ve grinded for. That’s nice obviously, but since neihter WvW nor PvP recieved any major updates since release, the content gets old. It’s nice for a PvE player to come to this gamemodes for a while if he gets bored from all the PvE content, but it’s not enough to keep the player interested for long.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

That’s nice obviously, but since neihter WvW nor PvP recieved any major updates since release, the content gets old. It’s nice for a PvE player to come to this gamemodes for a while if he gets bored from all the PvE content, but it’s not enough to keep the player interested for long.

You’ve made some interesting points there however wasn’t this supposed to be a casual game?

The grind is for people that simply are addicted to the game and refuse to go away period be it PvE or PvP.

It depends on focus unfortunately they are exclusive, you cannot have a casual game that is also a grind fest, what is the focus of Guild Wars 2 ?

Reservedly I would say PvP because of all the carrot on a stick type behavior that attempts to goad you into it unawares.

Zodiaci.3218:

P.S. If you are this bored of the actual game, then why are you going on a website that you do a kitten ton of reading related to the game on? That makes no sense.

I answered this already, but there is a wall of text to sift through:

Things seem to be shifting at ArenaNet in the last month or so. They seem to have realized that there is a disconnect between their players and the direction the game has been moving. They’ve admitted to communication problems and are making a visible effort to listen and respond more.

I have a glimmer of hope that they’ll listen and realize that, while QoL, LS, and NPE are good and all, there’s not enough new content being added to the game to make a lot of us want to stay. Some people are ok with the amount of new content and I’m really happy for them. Personally, I’m tired of seeing my friends leave, and doing the content I enjoy (dungeons) for the 100th time, hoping they’ll give us some new ones.

I have a slight bit of hope that they’ll come on and say “*We’ve heard you all, you want more challenging PvE content after completing the story. We’ve reassembled the dungeon team, and you can expect a new set of story and explorable dungeons is on the way!”

That hope is enough to make me keep a browser tab open to the forums and occasionally share my perspective. It’s just not enough to make me log in and watch more people leave.

Just my perspective.

Yes, I know, “It’s been there” isn’t really helping my case… but… IT HAS!
IT’S BEEN THERE SINCE LAUNCH!

This is kind of the whole point. With a few exceptions, most of the things to do in the game have been there since launch. I played through them, I like them, I want more of them. I stuck around for two years because I figured, “it’s an MMO, they’ll expand their content to retain players, that’s their whole business model!” Instead, we get a few additions early on, then nothing for a year, and an announcement of nothing in the near future.

It’s not the GAME’S fault that you got through it all, “There is none” and “I finished it.” are completely different things.

It’s no one’s fault, we’re just trying to get a feel of what to expect. We have gone through all of it that’s interesting to us, now we want to know whether we should stick around. It really sounds like they won’t be focusing on making challenging PvE content anymore. I’d just like to know if this really is the case, because after waiting one year already, I’m feeling cheated.

Zodiaci.3218:

Thank you for providing an actual complaint somewhere at least slightly within this category. While I’ve said before that “Just because you’ve done it, doesn’t mean it isn’t there”, I didn’t mean that adding more endgame for EXPERIENCED players would hurt the game, I was simply saying, for inexp. players, there’s plenty to go around.

I’m a bit confused — I don’t think it’s the inexp players who are complaining about endgame.

People are just being abrupt and glib when they say “no endgame.” They don’t actually believe that this game has 0 endgame content. We’re talking about the future of the game, meaning, once you finish what’s there, will there be more?

Thank you for being one of the only sober/non-enraged people here.

If anyone’s going to actually listen and not shut down out of defensiveness, it’s what we need to be doing. I wish more people would be like that so we weren’t all lumped into the “toxic minority” category.

But for two years we’ve been screaming a brick wall that gave us no answers or clues: “Will there be more of this content?” Some of us are still bitter at being neglected, paying customers of this company and get a little irate about it.

Vayne.8563:

Lissaere.7096:

Vayne.8563:

Yet the game listed achievements for Fractals for the longest time under the category dungeon. So you should listen to the game. The game is telling you Fractals are a dungeon. Or it was. Not in game right not to check if it’s still true. But it’s been true before the recent patch for the longest time.

Currently it’s listed under general so not true anymore.

Doesn’t work that way. They made it, and listed it as a dungeon and sub categories got taken off in the reorganization.

That means you’re saying it was a dungeon a month ago, but isn’t a dungeon now. That doesn’t wash. Clearly Anet considers it a dungeon, but a different type of dungeon than the original dungeons.

Guys, don’t get too hung up on the semantics here. A UI designer did not label any of those things intending to provide a definitive labeling of the content :-P

It’s a matter of opinion. You can define a dungeon as a single PvE instance, or as a set of story + explorable paths, as the term is frequently used in GW2. It’s up to you, words are just words.

Let’s try to stay focused on the point of this discussion: Is the amount of post-launch content sufficient?

And if someone with a red tag would care to enter this discussion that their customers are clearly concerned about, does ArenaNet intend to adjust the rate at which new content is released?

imho the main problem is: it’s untrue that there is nothing to do, but is true that there are no valid reasons to continue doing what the game offers, because there is no sense of progression whatsoever.

rfdarko.4639:

It’s easy to tear down fallacious arguments, to ridicule them. (Like the post Gaile highlighted).

If we care to be constructive, we shouldn’t just leave it at that. We should try to understand why people feel there is no endgame, when there is factual evidence to the contrary. Why are people who loved this game – theory crafted and strategized and competed for record dungeon times in this game- why are those the people leaving?

There is a lot of frustration fueled exaggeration that goes on. And yes, people need to take responsibility for the way they argue. But to take on the most poorly worded and hyperbolic statements at face value, and not go on to address the valid criticism behind that negative sentiment, is cheap. If we want to be literal, there has been no new 5-man tuned content for 10 months, and from what we’ve been told there will be nothing more in the near future. I think that is enough to warrant concern if you are a dedicated pve player.

….wanna go grab a beer or something? We need more people on here like you.

I think OP didn’t intend this thread to be about all endgame content but only about dungeon content because that is what he likes the most. Is that correct dlonie?

rfdarko.4639:

If we care to be constructive, we shouldn’t just leave it at that. We should try to understand why people feel there is no endgame, when there is factual evidence to the contrary. Why are people who loved this game – theory crafted and strategized and competed for record dungeon times in this game- why are those the people leaving?

It’s very simple really: While it’s true that there is a lot of content for players who are still in the process of learning their procession, there is a definite lack of content out there that challenges those who have already skilled at their profession and still want to feel challenged. This is especially true for organized group content.

The furthest they can go though is just doing existing content faster, some of which has been in the game for over two years.

Wolfheart.1938:

I think OP didn’t intend this thread to be about all endgame content but only about dungeon content because that is what he likes the most. Is that correct dlonie?

Well, OP’s original post is gone, but it’s quoted in Gaile’s redpost. It was about all kinds of content.

Zodiaci.3218:

I’d sincerely like to know where this rumor originated. No endgame? Is a new story campaign, giant map (and completion), crafting, a new set of dungeons, obtaining legendary weapons, and 3 new areas of the map opening up just not enough for you?
Really, where did this originate?

It was just that the “a set of new dungeons” bit grabbed folks’ attention.

Those guild puzzles look perfect for an endgame ‘test’. At least in layout, they are pretty grand. I think part of the problem is that people assume endgame means gear treadmill. While that’s the norm elsewhere, I cannot imagine that it’s irreplaceable. Gw2 rewards you with poo, always. I don’t see why this would be any different in an endgame arena. The lack of this kind of content is kind of odd, at least to me and my friends (who left long ago and make fun of my mmo of choice). But it is what it is. Instanced content no longer seems to be anet’s strog suit, which is a surprising departure from gw1. Then again, open world content doesn’t seem to be their strong suit either. But I still have fun. Complaining about endgame is actually pretty endgame.

Mizenhauer.6713:

Those guild puzzles look perfect for an endgame ‘test’. At least in layout, they are pretty grand. I think part of the problem is that people assume endgame means gear treadmill. While that’s the norm elsewhere, I cannot imagine that it’s irreplaceable. Gw2 rewards you with poo, always. I don’t see why this would be any different in an endgame arena. The lack of this kind of content is kind of odd, at least to me and my friends (who left long ago and make fun of my mmo of choice). But it is what it is. Instanced content no longer seems to be anet’s strog suit, which is a surprising departure from gw1. Then again, open world content doesn’t seem to be their strong suit either. But I still have fun. Complaining about endgame is actually pretty endgame.

Exactly, it’s not the gear treadmill we want, it the content that comes with it.

PvF does seem to be a popular choice for endgame these days. Lately I’ve been pretty fond of saying that “GW2 endgame is getting bored, uninstalling the game, and complaining on the forums.” ;-)

Frankly raids would be better without the treadmill. I really loved wow and the raids, but never liked how the gear upgrades made prior raids pointless, save for small group fun. That was alleviated somewhat by their introduction of a wardrobe equivalent, breathing some life and purpose into those dusty raids. But it was still trivialized by virtue of stat increases. That can only happen to a certain extent here (assuming ascended is the end, but I wouldn’t be surprised if jewel crafters are eventually given the task of crafting infusions as a tiny bit of vertical progression). Here, a raid couldn’t die. It would, at worst, become something g tk be blown through, like the dungeons here. I’m very curious about these ai changes that have been worked on. Learning the boss dance is fun, but it would be interesting if the bosses were able to respond accordingly.

Gaile Gray.6029:

Kaz.5430:

Zodiaci.3218:

I’d sincerely like to know where this rumor originated. No endgame? Is a new story campaign, giant map (and completion), crafting, a new set of dungeons, obtaining legendary weapons, and 3 new areas of the map opening up just not enough for you?
Really, where did this originate?

There seems to be group who are vocal on the forums who suffer from selective amnesia and denial.

For example, since the game has released there have been quite a few additional dungeons added, at least they would be considered dungeon in most games. However many players selectively chose to deny the existence of them, they consider a new dungeon path to not be a new dungeon (even though it would be if it had it’s own entrance), and of course Fractals of the Mist (and each individual fractal) is also “not a dungeon”.

If you look at the dungeons page on the Wiki, there are 9 dungeons in the game (including Fractals of the Mists). Those dungeons containing 42 different paths. Of those 42 paths, 10 of them (23.8%) didn’t exist at launch, but you’ll still hear people shouting that no new dungeons have been added.

This is true for “End Game” content in general, there has actually been a fair bit of End-Game content added, but you’ll never get some of the people on here to admit it. When you point it out to them you get a bizarre response, generally along the lines of “That doesn’t count because it should have been there since launch”. It might not have even been imagined at launch, but it should have been there anyway, so is not new.

You need to understand that the Living Story is not ‘New Storyline’, any new areas added are not ‘New Maps’ and any new words bosses are not ‘New World Bosses’. I’m pretty sure that anything added at all – unless it comes in the form of a boxed expansion – wont be considered new content by some people here, regardless of what it is, and even if it does come in a boxed expansion, there will probably be a group that denies it’s existence because “it should have been there from the start”.

My advice, would be to just enjoy the game, and not try to “understand” these forums.

I am quoting you “for great wisdom.”

Thank you for expressing what was running through my head as I was reading. And with tasty stats, too? Does it get any better than that!!??

+1 to this

Mizenhauer.6713:

Frankly raids would be better without the treadmill. I really loved wow and the raids, but never liked how the gear upgrades made prior raids pointless, save for small group fun. That was alleviated somewhat by their introduction of a wardrobe equivalent, breathing some life and purpose into those dusty raids. But it was still trivialized by virtue of stat increases. That can only happen to a certain extent here (assuming ascended is the end, but I wouldn’t be surprised if jewel crafters are eventually given the task of crafting infusions as a tiny bit of vertical progression). Here, a raid couldn’t die. It would, at worst, become something g tk be blown through, like the dungeons here. I’m very curious about these ai changes that have been worked on. Learning the boss dance is fun, but it would be interesting if the bosses were able to respond accordingly.

I think a lot of people raided because of the treadmill though. WIthout that loot motivation I don’t think most people would do it.

Take a dungeon like TA Aetherblade path. Reward isn’t enough, people don’t do it. That’s how raiding draws in so many people. It’s the only way to get what you want.

I know a lot of people who did raiding to get stuff but didn’t enjoy it.

Players that complain about the end-game in the GW franchise are playing the wrong game.

It’s really that simple.

I’m not going to go through an individually reply to each person that’s addressed me in the thread. Not because I feel that I can’t reply directly, but simply because it doesn’t actually add anything to this thread. This thread isn’t about me, it’s about the GW2 End Game.

I fully agree that there has been no ‘Dungeon’ content added since the Fractured release in November last year, but that’s not the same as there having been no new dungeon content added since release, nor is it the same as saying that there has been no ‘End Game’ content added since release.

You might consider my statement “There seems to be group who are vocal on the forums who suffer from selective amnesia and denial” to be insulting, but then I didn’t say that of all people who post of the forums, just a group of unspecified size. I’d postulate that if that statement is insulting to you, then you must in some way consider yourself to be someone who posts sweeping hyperbolic statements, rather than actually writes what they mean.

Yes you can say I’m being pedantic, but why should anybody have to attempt to psychically predict what you’re inferring between the lines. This is an internet forum, not a face to face conversation where non-verbal queues can be used to infer meaning. Hyperbole is not constructive when used without any context, and on an internet forum that context needs to be provided explicitly.

However, the first thing I’ve noticed since reading through the rest of thread, is that regardless of whether or not you agree with me, the majority of posts have switched from what I referred to as “Selective Amnesia and Denial”, to constructive discussion and criticism of the end game.

IMO, this thread has drastically improved from a constructive point of view since I posted, and hopefully that will continue.

I didn’t want to be argumentative, but you guys are arguing with eachother, change my opinion about there being “No endgame” when there is? Why? It’s right there, I’ve put just a bit of it right in your face, you can bring random and conflicting definitions, and again, I never said that by “New” I meant “recently added”. I’m sorry that there hasn’t been anything recently added that you’re interested in, but there have been quite a few additions, and there’s much to do when you open up to level 80. If you opt not to? Fine. If you’ve done it? Fine. Congratulations! You’ve gone through the endgame! Nobody has explained thus far WHY there is “No endgame”, but rather why they dislike it or find it lacking in some area. So, no. I will not change my opinion, until I have been informed why I should do so, rather that just being “cool.”

If you chose to believe I was “exaggerating” when I gave very valid examples, what do you want? Even if you DO believe I was exaggerating (Because it wasn’t recently added to the game?) it remains valid, it’s still there. Really, you can do it. Launch the game and do it.

You can keep telling me “I like/dislike this” and all that, but nobody once has told me why there is NO endgame content. Sure, for experienced players, it’s a bit lacking, but that’s just because… You’re EXPERIENCED! You’ve done it before! This goes for any game, there is only so much you can do, sure at first the world of Tyria seems unlimited, so I understand you’re disappointed when you find out, but that’s just the way it is. It seems like you’ve replaced your memory of disappointment that the game is finite with the phrases “There is NO ENDGAME” . So yeah, all I ever asked is “Where did this originate?” It is not a thread of criticism/ideas to improve the endgame.

Zodiaci, no one is asking you to change your opinion and start disliking the game to be “cool”. You still enjoy the game, and none of us would want you to stop. That’d make us truly terrible people.

I’ll be direct with my answer to your question: “Why do people say there’s no endgame?”

Answer: Because we’re humans, and we mince words sometimes. No one believes that there is absolutely no endgame. When people say that, they’re saying that endgame is not sustainable for them, that the content they enjoy is getting stale.

Hope that clears things up.

dlonie.6547:

Zodiaci, no one is asking you to change your opinion and start disliking the game to be “cool”. You still enjoy the game, and none of us would want you to stop. That’d make us truly terrible people.

I’ll be direct with my answer to your question: “Why do people say there’s no endgame?”

Answer: Because we’re humans, and we mince words sometimes. No one believes that there is absolutely no endgame. When people say that, they’re saying that endgame is not sustainable for them, that the content they enjoy is getting stale.

Hope that clears things up.

I’d be able to forgive that if they’d stop being obnoxious about it, and arguing to other people about something they don’t actually mean.

Zodiaci.3218:

…
It seems like you’ve replaced your memory of disappointment that the game is finite with the phrases “There is NO ENDGAME” . So yeah, all I ever asked is “Where did this originate?” It is not a thread of criticism/ideas to improve the endgame.

So what your saying, is you made a thread for the purpose of complaining about people complaining about endgame, and not to be about contructively discussing endgame. So people should stop construtively discussing ideas to improve the game.

yeah, this is funny to me, its also funny to me the red post has the same idea you do.

in my opinion, both you and anet should look at this thread and try to understand why people are saying what they are saying. The fact that you keep hearing people complain about endgame/new content is something both you and them need to really think about.

So far anets answer has been to try to add reward/progression systems using old content, that is not really what needs to happen. They need new content, they made a themepark game, the rides are old now.

ShadowDragoonFTW.3418:

Beldin.5498:

ShadowDragoonFTW.3418:

If you’re complaining about this content, which is widely considered the end-game content for pretty much every other MMO out there, then what content do you expect to get when you’re asking for an endgame here?

Running Underworld 2920 times in 8 years .. that is fun endgame for the GW1 players i always have the feeling.

Repeating stuff is always boring .. as long as it is not Underworld.

This means nothing to me, because I don’t know what Underworld is, and I’m sure a lot of other users also don’t know. Be descriptive, man. :-|

No problem .. i also don’t know what Underworld is .. but reading the forums and
especially comments from all those GW1 fans then there were maybe 3 zones
called Underworld, The Deep and Ulgoz (or something like that) that were soooo
amazing that they played them endloss for 8 years .. and while everything else
gets boring after doing it 5 times, those zones were sooo amazing that they will
not be boring even if you continue playing them until 2250 at least

Zodiaci.3218:

dlonie.6547:

Zodiaci, no one is asking you to change your opinion and start disliking the game to be “cool”. You still enjoy the game, and none of us would want you to stop. That’d make us truly terrible people.

I’ll be direct with my answer to your question: “Why do people say there’s no endgame?”

Answer: Because we’re humans, and we mince words sometimes. No one believes that there is absolutely no endgame. When people say that, they’re saying that endgame is not sustainable for them, that the content they enjoy is getting stale.

Hope that clears things up.

I’d be able to forgive that if they’d stop being obnoxious about it, and arguing to other people about something they don’t actually mean.

shrugs Not sure what there is to forgive. They’ve stopped having fun, but it doesn’t harm you in the least.

I’ll leave this thread be since I misunderstood it’s intentions. Have fun in game :-)

Beldin.5498:

ShadowDragoonFTW.3418:

Beldin.5498:

ShadowDragoonFTW.3418:

If you’re complaining about this content, which is widely considered the end-game content for pretty much every other MMO out there, then what content do you expect to get when you’re asking for an endgame here?

Running Underworld 2920 times in 8 years .. that is fun endgame for the GW1 players i always have the feeling.

Repeating stuff is always boring .. as long as it is not Underworld.

This means nothing to me, because I don’t know what Underworld is, and I’m sure a lot of other users also don’t know. Be descriptive, man. :-|

No problem .. i also don’t know what Underworld is .. but reading the forums and
especially comments from all those GW1 fans then there were maybe 3 zones
called Underworld, The Deep and Ulgoz (or something like that) that were soooo
amazing that they played them endloss for 8 years .. and while everything else
gets boring after doing it 5 times, those zones were sooo amazing that they will
not be boring even if you continue playing them until 2250 at least

Underworld was one of the main dungeons in the game, but it was a dungeon designed like a small zone, with like 8 quests in it. It was relatively fairly difficult (compared to the standard content in the game)
you can think of it like dungeons are in this game, except larger, with more paths all at once.
People didnt always go in with the intent to play the whole zone, they would sometimes just do a couple areas.

Full party death kicked you out of the instance.
you could get tired of it, but it was fairly challenging to complete, and it would take many runs before you saw/did everything for most people. Different order events made the run a bit different depending who you played with.
it had good random drops from enemies, so people were happy to even play the parts of it they liked, as opposed to the whole thing.

game design wise, it was a pretty good game mode.

they also added new dungeons, so people who played it for 6-8 years actually wanted to play it for that time.

phys.7689:

Beldin.5498:

ShadowDragoonFTW.3418:

Beldin.5498:

ShadowDragoonFTW.3418:

If you’re complaining about this content, which is widely considered the end-game content for pretty much every other MMO out there, then what content do you expect to get when you’re asking for an endgame here?

Running Underworld 2920 times in 8 years .. that is fun endgame for the GW1 players i always have the feeling.

Repeating stuff is always boring .. as long as it is not Underworld.

This means nothing to me, because I don’t know what Underworld is, and I’m sure a lot of other users also don’t know. Be descriptive, man. :-|

No problem .. i also don’t know what Underworld is .. but reading the forums and
especially comments from all those GW1 fans then there were maybe 3 zones
called Underworld, The Deep and Ulgoz (or something like that) that were soooo
amazing that they played them endloss for 8 years .. and while everything else
gets boring after doing it 5 times, those zones were sooo amazing that they will
not be boring even if you continue playing them until 2250 at least

Underworld was one of the main dungeons in the game, but it was a dungeon designed like a small zone, with like 8 quests in it. It was relatively fairly difficult (compared to the standard content in the game)
you can think of it like dungeons are in this game, except larger, with more paths all at once.
People didnt always go in with the intent to play the whole zone, they would sometimes just do a couple areas.

Full party death kicked you out of the instance.
you could get tired of it, but it was fairly challenging to complete, and it would take many runs before you saw/did everything for most people. Different order events made the run a bit different depending who you played with.
it had good random drops from enemies, so people were happy to even play the parts of it they liked, as opposed to the whole thing.

game design wise, it was a pretty good game mode.

they also added new dungeons, so people who played it for 6-8 years actually wanted to play it for that time.

I was thinking about this.

Do you think the UW design was so good because of the quests/map textures and overall open-ended nature of the content?

Looking back and thinking about it, I think the reason why UW was so fun was that:

a. It was a challenge that you could LOSE.
b. There were penalties for dying.
c. Both a. and b. meant that team cooperation was paramount.
d. The rewards were rewarding if your party played well, you lost money if your party played poorly (due to the entrance fee and being kicked out for a full wipe.)

There is not a single dungeon in game that meets ANY of those criteria, EXCEPT maybe a few particular fractals or a few Arah paths.

Any composition can complete nearly any path. You can’t LOSE. Your team may rage quit if it’s terribad, but you can’t actually lose if you keep trying.

There are no penalties for dying. None.

Teams don’t NEED to plan. Sure the speedrunners will might stack, some pugs may decide which warrior is taking which banner, but overall it’s enter dungeon and YOLO mode everything. Bearbow rangers, flamethrower engis, staff guardians, full necro party? Who cares, the content is so easy that you hardly have to plan. Maybe put some walls down here and there for reflects… but really… there’s just no complexity.

Finally, the last point. Rewards. There seems to be two categories of rewards in this game. The guaranteed reward and the so-RNG-gated-that-you’ll-never-see-it-drop reward. Why not something in between? Why not content that is more rewarding the better your team performs?

@Kas, I posted because you said: “My advice, would be to just enjoy the game, and not try to ‘understand’ these forums.” Which sounds like a much broader assessment then addressing specifically the people who chose to argue badly.

It frustrated me, because often well thought out arguments are overlooked, where as poor arguments are picked up on, ripped apart and left at that. There has been plenty of good discussion about the problems in the end game, but the posts that get attention are the ones which challenge literally the claim that there is “no endgame what-so-ever”. My frustration is both with the people who make these bad arguments which confuse the discussion, but also the people focus on only pointing out fallacies in those obviously exaggerated statements. It makes the discussion about those bad posts, and puts the valid criticism in the background.

I worry that the devs will take your advice (or already have), to not try and understand these forums when it comes to end-game criticism. That they wont look beyond the easily dismissed hyperbole to the true source of growing discontent. If there is a reoccurring theme that comes up in complaints, there is probably some actual problem, whether or not the posters are articulating it well.

Anyway, I get that you weren’t meaning to say all forum posters exaggerate to the point of factual inaccuracy. And pointing out bs is valuable to weed it out of the conversation. I’m glad that it’s turned out well in this thread. But too many times I’ve seen really good discussion ignored and detractors pick up on the easy targets. I think it’s part of the reason communication has broken down between anet the dungeon community.

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

I was thinking about this.

Do you think the UW design was so good because of the quests/map textures and overall open-ended nature of the content?

Looking back and thinking about it, I think the reason why UW was so fun was that:

a. It was a challenge that you could LOSE.
b. There were penalties for dying.
c. Both a. and b. meant that team cooperation was paramount.
d. The rewards were rewarding if your party played well, you lost money if your party played poorly (due to the entrance fee and being kicked out for a full wipe.)

There is not a single dungeon in game that meets ANY of those criteria, EXCEPT maybe a few particular fractals or a few Arah paths.

Any composition can complete nearly any path. You can’t LOSE. Your team may rage quit if it’s terribad, but you can’t actually lose if you keep trying.

There are no penalties for dying. None.

Teams don’t NEED to plan. Sure the speedrunners will might stack, some pugs may decide which warrior is taking which banner, but overall it’s enter dungeon and YOLO mode everything. Bearbow rangers, flamethrower engis, staff guardians, full necro party? Who cares, the content is so easy that you hardly have to plan. Maybe put some walls down here and there for reflects… but really… there’s just no complexity.

Finally, the last point. Rewards. There seems to be two categories of rewards in this game. The guaranteed reward and the so-RNG-gated-that-you’ll-never-see-it-drop reward. Why not something in between? Why not content that is more rewarding the better your team performs?

this is definately part of it, but if it was all that, but one straightforward path, i think it would also have gotten old quicker than it did for most people.

IMO best instanced party system i ever played was actually in an ORPG, phantasy star online. that was back in the late 90s early 0s i think.

challenge mode

It was one per charachter but i made and deleted 100s of charachters. I never got bored, and i joined random parties from challenge mode enthusiasts.

its interesting because it used the same game mechanics that were alwayts there, but you couldnt outlevel content, and start over infinitely/get raised infinitely. Only in this situation did you truely see what the game mechanics were about.

anyhow, i think to be repeatable, yes, you need that risk, you need ways to measure how well you do, and you also need a bit of unpredictability. You definately need a worthwhile reward, but it doesnt have to be randomly generated, it just has to feel appropriately special.

So, turns out that people are either blind, biased, or fanbois are taking over forums.

I keep reading how the living story is “exciting new content” and how fractals are considered “endgame” or some other nonsense like this.

Lets go over this slowly shall we? How many times have you run the season 2 story episodes on average? I would take a guess and say only once to twice for people who wanted the achis. And then everyone didn’t bother with them anymore because you know, they are BORING and the rewards are a joke.

Anet can try to shove that down my throat as “exciting” but to me its usually wall of text followed by 2 min of actual combat, as the last episode was proof enough of this. So explain to me how 10 min of reading through walls of text and 2 min of combat is considered exciting in any way shape or form. And not to stop there but Anet has the audacity to take a 3 month break after the most insulting episode to be added yet.

Maybe most posters here are fairly new at the game but for us players who started at launch there is absolutely nothing to do anymore. And the sad thing is there is NOTHING to look forward to.

Maybe i should stress this even more. As the game stands right now, there is NOTHING to look forward to. New living story episode? Oh ya in 2 months!!!. Are you kittening kidding me? You really expect to keep players hooked up that long by simply farming rocks?

Now lets go over fractals shall we? We have technically been running the same fractals for….gosh don’t know how long now but its over a year now. They added 3 more which are technically a recycle of the old living story content. Again, besides the original fractals there has been NO NEW CONTENT ADDED. Everything else has been recycled.

Think of these 2 points before you yap more mouth claiming how exciting things are right now.

All I want is an expansion. Call it endgame, more content, or whatever as long as their is an expansion that is well done with tons more to do I’ll be happy until then I’ll be playing <censored> and <censored>.

;)

After running around in Cursed Shore and following the train around, I have this to say about CS (and parts of FGS) as endgame zones (i.e., content for which you are not down-leveled). ANet’s approach to GW2 has been to place a heavy emphasis on persistent world content. Event scaling make it more rewarding to do said content in large groups, with grouping and certain professions and weapon choices being better than everything else at the one challenge these events offer — tagging enough to get better drops. Mega-server means that, while one was once able to find some challenge in these events, it’s much more likely now that these events will be outnumbered.

The Temple events were intended to be part of the GW2 endgame. I’ll even submit that every group event is meant to be part of the GW2 endgame. However, while some people seem able to cycle through these events over, and over, and over ad nauseam, they aren’t going to qualify for others — either due to lack of challenge in a large herd, lack of meaningful rewards to pursue or sheer boredom at doing Event X for the umpty-seventh time.

As far as dungeons, including FotM go, neither the original dungeons nor FotM have had regular infusions of new rewards to entice repetition. Sooner or later, people get what they’re after (or give up due to RNG woes).

GW2 may have endgame. What it also has is many large events that are run in an endless cycle by enough players to make any one player’s contribution inconsequential. What GW2 does not have have is regular infusions of new challenges with repetition fueled by new rewards

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

phys.7689:

Beldin.5498:

ShadowDragoonFTW.3418:

Beldin.5498:

ShadowDragoonFTW.3418:

If you’re complaining about this content, which is widely considered the end-game content for pretty much every other MMO out there, then what content do you expect to get when you’re asking for an endgame here?

Running Underworld 2920 times in 8 years .. that is fun endgame for the GW1 players i always have the feeling.

Repeating stuff is always boring .. as long as it is not Underworld.

This means nothing to me, because I don’t know what Underworld is, and I’m sure a lot of other users also don’t know. Be descriptive, man. :-|

No problem .. i also don’t know what Underworld is .. but reading the forums and
especially comments from all those GW1 fans then there were maybe 3 zones
called Underworld, The Deep and Ulgoz (or something like that) that were soooo
amazing that they played them endloss for 8 years .. and while everything else
gets boring after doing it 5 times, those zones were sooo amazing that they will
not be boring even if you continue playing them until 2250 at least

Underworld was one of the main dungeons in the game, but it was a dungeon designed like a small zone, with like 8 quests in it. It was relatively fairly difficult (compared to the standard content in the game)
you can think of it like dungeons are in this game, except larger, with more paths all at once.
People didnt always go in with the intent to play the whole zone, they would sometimes just do a couple areas.

Full party death kicked you out of the instance.
you could get tired of it, but it was fairly challenging to complete, and it would take many runs before you saw/did everything for most people. Different order events made the run a bit different depending who you played with.
it had good random drops from enemies, so people were happy to even play the parts of it they liked, as opposed to the whole thing.

game design wise, it was a pretty good game mode.

they also added new dungeons, so people who played it for 6-8 years actually wanted to play it for that time.

I was thinking about this.

Do you think the UW design was so good because of the quests/map textures and overall open-ended nature of the content?

Looking back and thinking about it, I think the reason why UW was so fun was that:

a. It was a challenge that you could LOSE.
b. There were penalties for dying.
c. Both a. and b. meant that team cooperation was paramount.
d. The rewards were rewarding if your party played well, you lost money if your party played poorly (due to the entrance fee and being kicked out for a full wipe.)

There is not a single dungeon in game that meets ANY of those criteria, EXCEPT maybe a few particular fractals or a few Arah paths.

Any composition can complete nearly any path. You can’t LOSE. Your team may rage quit if it’s terribad, but you can’t actually lose if you keep trying.

There are no penalties for dying. None.

Teams don’t NEED to plan. Sure the speedrunners will might stack, some pugs may decide which warrior is taking which banner, but overall it’s enter dungeon and YOLO mode everything. Bearbow rangers, flamethrower engis, staff guardians, full necro party? Who cares, the content is so easy that you hardly have to plan. Maybe put some walls down here and there for reflects… but really… there’s just no complexity.

Finally, the last point. Rewards. There seems to be two categories of rewards in this game. The guaranteed reward and the so-RNG-gated-that-you’ll-never-see-it-drop reward. Why not something in between? Why not content that is more rewarding the better your team performs?

It was good for a percentage of the playerbase. I’m relatively sure most people that played Guild Wars 1 never even attempted the Underworld and that’s the problem.

The people who liked it and swear by it, in my opinion are nowhere close to any kind of majority. Which might be why Anet didn’t make something else like that.

IMO this game has enough endgame, however it has too much farming and it can be the annoying kind.

See doing live meta-events on a daily basis is ok for me, but running around with 30+ players spamming AOE’s on Not-Yet-Vulnerable-Undead/Risen-Orrians during events to get Lootbags will get boring pretty soon, although the rewards can be pretty good, it’s still a big bowl of FX bombing some pixels to get lootbags.

What I’m saying is that some parts of “the end-game” require “boring” farming see doing each meta-event on a daily basis is a form of farming, but it’s not that boring at least not in comparison.