Guild Wars 2

cosmicegg.8502:

Ive already read negative feedback about HoT at amazon highliting this as a reason. Colin Has to be grinning.

Why would he be grinning, would you be grinning if you got fired?

Ashen.2907:

Work on the LW was announced prior to the cessation of production of new legendaries. Something that they were going to do anyway, as a basic part of their business plan, as established over a period of multiple years, is not an effort to compensate players for the company’s failure to deliver an advertised product.

Work on LW was planned ahead of time. ADDING the legendaries team to the LW team to bolster the LW content delivery was announced in the OP of this thread, and not before.

Ashen.2907:

Buy once, play forever. That license was sold (note sold, not leased or rented) as access to the game for as long as it exists. Depriving the purchaser of access to the core game as a punitive action for seeking a refund of a different purchase is where the flaw lies.

Buy once, and play until either party no longer agrees to some or all of the contract; then the contract is ended. That’s where the rub is. That is how eulas are often written in my experience.

~EW

Tachenon.5270:

Obtena.7952:

Tachenon.5270:

If you’re arguing against those who hold that anet was wrong to choose to not deliver what they advertised, then you’re arguing in favor of anet not delivering what they advertise. You are, in essence, arguing in favor of anet not delivering what YOU pay for someday.

Why would you do that?

Because the content is worth paying for. I recognize that I didn’t ONLY pay for one singular feature when I got HoT.

That doesn’t answer the question I asked, but whatever. No, you didn’t pay for one singular feature, you paid for ALL OF IT. Which is precisely what you didn’t get.

Of course it does … it’s content worth paying for. Even if I didn’t get all of it. I don’t worry about counting beans.

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

Tachenon.5270:

If you’re arguing against those who hold that anet was wrong to choose to not deliver what they advertised, then you’re arguing in favor of anet not delivering what they advertise. You are, in essence, arguing in favor of anet not delivering what YOU pay for someday.

Why would you do that?

‘If you’re not an apple, then you’re a banana’ type of thinking discounts the existence of pears and oranges which are neither of the first two fruits. Imo such binary thinking always does more harm than good.

~EW

Either they took money for something they’ve decided to not deliver, or they didn’t. We know that they did take the money. We know that they aren’t delivering what they advertised.

Either you approve of this, or you don’t. I don’t. You, evidently, do.

There are no pears or oranges here.

Is all press good press?

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/473/feature/10723/Legendary-Fury.html

http://techraptor.net/content/guild-wars-2-legendary-weapons-suspended-indefinitely

Obtena.7952:

Tachenon.5270:

Obtena.7952:

Tachenon.5270:

If you’re arguing against those who hold that anet was wrong to choose to not deliver what they advertised, then you’re arguing in favor of anet not delivering what they advertise. You are, in essence, arguing in favor of anet not delivering what YOU pay for someday.

Why would you do that?

Because the content is worth paying for. I recognize that I didn’t ONLY pay for one singular feature when I got HoT.

That doesn’t answer the question I asked, but whatever. No, you didn’t pay for one singular feature, you paid for ALL OF IT. Which is precisely what you didn’t get.

Of course it does … it’s content worth paying for. Even if I didn’t get all of it. I don’t worry about counting beans.

I understand your point Obtena but I think what she/he was saying might be better describe by something like “If you bought a car and it and you paid for a high performance V8 engine would you still be happy if it had the standard 4 cylinder on delivery”?

I personally don’t care about them dropping the new Legendaries but others do and their argument is valid.

I don’t think that’s a valid comparison. Anet did not specify how many Legendaries and when, unlike the car that comes with a 4 Cly when I expected 8

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

Ashen.2907:

Work on the LW was announced prior to the cessation of production of new legendaries. Something that they were going to do anyway, as a basic part of their business plan, as established over a period of multiple years, is not an effort to compensate players for the company’s failure to deliver an advertised product.

Work on LW was planned ahead of time. ADDING the legendaries team to the LW team to bolster the LW content delivery was announced in the OP of this thread, and not before.

Ashen.2907:

Buy once, play forever. That license was sold (note sold, not leased or rented) as access to the game for as long as it exists. Depriving the purchaser of access to the core game as a punitive action for seeking a refund of a different purchase is where the flaw lies.

Buy once, and play until either party no longer agrees to some or all of the contract; then the contract is ended. That’s where the rub is. That is how eulas are often written in my experience.

~EW

1) there was no EULA present at the time of the establishment of the initial contract regarding GW2 between myself and Anet.

2) in my state a modification to a contract requires that both parties be returned to their original state before the new contract can be considered valid. Anet has always retained possession of the game in its dealings with its consumers, but players do not retain possession of the money paid as part of the purchase contract. Such would need to be restored to them in order for the purchase contract to be modified or cancelled by Anet.

Companies get away with situations like this not because they are in the right legally, but because the cost of litigation far outweighs what could be recovered by a consumer seeking redress.

All of this aside, my primary concern here is not with getting a refund for myself, I dont qualify, but with reducing the negative impact of this situation on the next expansion.

Obtena.7952:

I don’t think that’s a valid comparison. Anet did not specify how many Legendaries and when, unlike the car that comes with a 4 Cly when I expected 8

They certainly did specify how many, just not when. However, “regular intervals” and “indefinitely suspended” are very dissimilar “whens”.

Obtena.7952:

I don’t think that’s a valid comparison. Anet did not specify how many Legendaries and when, unlike the car that comes with a 4 Cly when I expected 8

How is it not valid, they delivered a few new legendary’s just not all 16. I think you do understand you just refuse to change your stand, and that is your choice. Be good and have a Great Day!!

Yes, I do refuse to change my stand because I realize for me, HoT still gives the value for money I spent on it, even if they don’t deliver every bit of content they promised. In fact, I think it delivers more than the $50 I spent on the expansion, so a few undelivered here or there doesn’t matter to me.

I get it matters to others; that’s not my problem here. The egregious part of this thread to me is the insistence on a refund, especially when full refund is being demanded. Also the instance by some that Anet did this because of malicious intent; that’s just stupid.

Ashen.2907:

1) there was no EULA present at the time of the establishment of the initial contract regarding GW2 between myself and Anet.

There has always been a user agreement and you agree to be bound by it with your very first login. You also agree that that it can change and, if you are in Germany, you even get your own special version of it. Your argument to the contrary is naive and ridiculous.

Obtena.7952:

The egregious part of this thread to me is the insistence on a refund, especially when full refund is being demanded.

There hasn’t really been much call for that. There seems to be more issue with the fact that a “full” refund is the only thing Anet offers. Many here (seems like most, but I’m not counting) do not want refunds for HoT and certainly not to lose our entire account over an issue involving only the expansion.

Ashen.2907:

1) there was no EULA present at the time of the establishment of the initial contract regarding GW2 between myself and Anet.

I’m sorry if I used the wrong term for this case, but your initial contract with GW2 was a license to use their product none-the-less. If you bought the physical GW2 box, what you bought was a box and an install disk… which is a sad thing to think about these days.

Ashen.2907:

2) in my state a modification to a contract requires that both parties be returned to their original state before the new contract can be considered valid. Anet has always retained possession of the game in its dealings with its consumers, but players do not retain possession of the money paid as part of the purchase contract. Such would need to be restored to them in order for the purchase contract to be modified or cancelled by Anet.

That may not be entirely the case when it comes to software ownership being retained by ANet. The players don’t retain possession of the money because they’re paying for access to the game so long as both parties are agreeing to that access… “forever” isn’t acceptable w/o fine print for “forever” to be canceled. And when it is canceled by either party, it remains that the user got their access while the license was in place. As far as the ToS/eula/whatever for HoT goes, the returning to the original state was likely covered in the fine print when we clicked ‘accept.’ If there is a legal case on anything any company does, then I support people pursuing it… I just think that if the law were so cut and dry, we wouldn’t need lawyers.

Ashen.2907:

Companies get away with situations like this not because they are in the right legally, but because the cost of litigation far outweighs what could be recovered by a consumer seeking redress.

Until it doesn’t outweigh it… and any company worth their salt isn’t going to play that gamble. Is ANet worth their salt? I look forward to finding out at some point.

Ashen.2907:

All of this aside, my primary concern here is not with getting a refund for myself, I dont qualify, but with reducing the negative impact of this situation on the next expansion.

That’s a completely fair stance to take. And I think that’s why it’s a good thing to have peeps discussing how much of a breach of license this is, and to what extent is the expectation for ANet to make amends (both legally and personally).

You make an interesting point about the ‘return to original state’ in contract modifications, and I am curious as to what the legal precedence is in regards to licenses.

~EW

bananaman.1685:

Ashen.2907:

1) there was no EULA present at the time of the establishment of the initial contract regarding GW2 between myself and Anet.

There has always been a user agreement and you agree to be bound by it with your very first login. You also agree that that it can change and, if you are in Germany, you even get your own special version of it. Your argument to the contrary is naive and ridiculous.

Your very first login happens after the purchase has been made. I bought the core game at a brick and mortar store and the expansion from an authorized third party , and those sellers are not going to accept the return of a product that has been opened or its key given.

This aspect of software EULAs has lead to them being invalidated in some cases. The fact that by the time the user is able to have the choice to agree or disagree, their ability to return the product is gone, serves to give some degree of favor to the consumer. Or as in many instances, the manufacturer/developer attempts to assert that merely opening the package, in which the EULA is sealed, qualifies as accepting the terms. In those cases, it can be quite difficult to establish that the agreement was ever valid due to its attempts at being enforced before it was even presented.

mrstealth.6701:

bananaman.1685:

Ashen.2907:

1) there was no EULA present at the time of the establishment of the initial contract regarding GW2 between myself and Anet.

There has always been a user agreement and you agree to be bound by it with your very first login. You also agree that that it can change and, if you are in Germany, you even get your own special version of it. Your argument to the contrary is naive and ridiculous.

Your very first login happens after the purchase has been made. I bought the core game at a brick and mortar store and the expansion from an authorized third party , and those sellers are not going to accept the return of a product that has been opened or its key given.

This aspect of software EULAs has lead to them being invalidated in some cases. The fact that by the time the user is able to have the choice to agree or disagree, their ability to return the product is gone, serves to give some degree of favor to the consumer. Or as in many instances, the manufacturer/developer attempts to assert that merely opening the package, in which the EULA is sealed, qualifies as accepting the terms. In those cases, it can be quite difficult to establish that the agreement was ever valid due to its attempts at being enforced before it was even presented.

This is the correct response, EULA don’t really hold much weight.

mrstealth.6701:

Your very first login happens after the purchase has been made. I bought the core game at a brick and mortar store and the expansion from an authorized third party , and those sellers are not going to accept the return of a product that has been opened or its key given.

This aspect of software EULAs has lead to them being invalidated in some cases. The fact that by the time the user is able to have the choice to agree or disagree, their ability to return the product is gone, serves to give some degree of favor to the consumer. Or as in many instances, the manufacturer/developer attempts to assert that merely opening the package, in which the EULA is sealed, qualifies as accepting the terms. In those cases, it can be quite difficult to establish that the agreement was ever valid due to its attempts at being enforced before it was even presented.

So taking this point with Ashen’s earlier point about returning to an original state when a contract is modified… then does this mean that the original state you’re returned to what you’re at the very first time you logged into the game when you have spent 0 time in the game? It’s an interesting idea, and maybe why there’s a justification that accounts get’s locked on refunds. If that’s the case… hmmm… something else to ponder. o.O

~EW

Legitimate company’s that do business over the net have to be really carful about fraud. RICO could bite them in the kitten LLC or not.

mrstealth.6701:

cesmode.4257:

If you have any doubts of my assumptions, let me direct you to the forums 2-3 years ago when they revealed “ascended weapons”. My gosh…anyone that was around during that time predicted doom for the game (including myself, albeit it its one of the reasons I stopped playing..in the end I decided to make my voice heard with the absence of my wallet after a few dev decisions that didn’t sit with me). Thread after thread for what seemed like 1-2 years, threads hundreds of pages long. Every day, its all you saw on the forums. An entire AMA was ad-hoc and “spur of the moment” created to address the insane rage that the community felt about this betrayel. Yet, nothing…nothing was done to address this. They had their own plan, their own decision making, their own views, their own statistics, and they went ahead full steam FULL KNOWING what wrath we would bring to their door step.

It’s kinda funny that you mention that. Just last year they finally did something that was essentially an answer to one of the biggest concerns back then. Mystic Forge recipes were added to, rather cheaply, change the stats of ascended gear (excluding jewelry). Had ascended gear initially came with that option, or if it were added during that round of forum rage, I think the outcry would have been far less severe.

Of course, we don’t know and likely never will, if the community response from back then had any impact on the change being implemented. There’s just as much of a chance it was a new idea thought up for convenience, as there is chance it was something picked up off the table from 3 years akitten

, not being around GW2 for a long time I didn’t know…during my tenure nothing was being done.

Still, what you describe is one small piece of it. If you remember, the bigger issue was that leading up to launch and the first 3 months after launch exotic gear was max tier. There was no mention of ascended gear, none. And at that point, the “manifesto” was still quite relevant and they mentioned no power creep, no vertical progression, etc etc etc (albeit nowadays its looked at as an old ancient text of former visions for GW2).

That is what people were PO’d about.

Then ~3 months into launch, without warning they launch ascended gear and claim that it had been planned all along.

My big question was (which was never truly answered): If Ascended gear was planned all along, and if you knew(according to AMA reddit with Chris Whiteside) that introducing Ascended gear would draw a lot of ire, why wasn’t this new tier of gear revealed prior to launch or simultaneously to launch via “…and coming soon, a new and final tier of gear…Ascended gear…” . They could have avoided a years worth of complaining, lost customers, lost cycles on debating the topic, etc. So I call bullocks on it being planned and it was a quasi knee-jerk reaction to a few elitists that swelled in GW2 ranks that clamored for some sort of vertical progression.

cosmicegg.8502:

I would rather they gave me what was advertised and paid for then then allow them to get away with cheating on a deal. I would accept a refund if it included all my gem purchases and then gladly say adios and consider time played as time wasted.

This. I would gladly accept refund of my 45€ for a HoT and because I will get banned after that will gladly accept 60€ for core game that I purchased 3 years ago. So thats 105€ to use on something else. Can I get that?

cosmicegg.8502:

Legitimate company’s that do business over the net have to be really carful about fraud. RICO could bite them in the kitten LLC or not.

RICO? LOL…someone has been watching too much sons of anarchy.

Ragnarox.9601:

cosmicegg.8502:

I would rather they gave me what was advertised and paid for then then allow them to get away with cheating on a deal. I would accept a refund if it included all my gem purchases and then gladly say adios and consider time played as time wasted.

This. I would gladly accept refund of my 45€ for a HoT and because I will get banned after that will gladly accept 60€ for core game that I purchased 3 years ago. So thats 105€ to use on something else. Can I get that?

You want a refund for the core game too? Thats like ordering a steak at a restaurant, eating 90% of it, and then asking for a refund because it wasn’t cooked to order.

Nearly the same thing with HoT…we are how many months into the launch of HoT?

cesmode.4257:

Ragnarox.9601:

cosmicegg.8502:

I would rather they gave me what was advertised and paid for then then allow them to get away with cheating on a deal. I would accept a refund if it included all my gem purchases and then gladly say adios and consider time played as time wasted.

This. I would gladly accept refund of my 45€ for a HoT and because I will get banned after that will gladly accept 60€ for core game that I purchased 3 years ago. So thats 105€ to use on something else. Can I get that?

You want a refund for the core game too? Thats like ordering a Steak at a restaurant, eating 90% of it, and then asking for a refund because it wasn’t cooked to order.

Nearly the same thing with HoT…we are how many months into the launch of HoT?

Exactly … anyone that thinks a refund is in order is out to lunch.

cesmode.4257:

Ragnarox.9601:

cosmicegg.8502:

I would rather they gave me what was advertised and paid for then then allow them to get away with cheating on a deal. I would accept a refund if it included all my gem purchases and then gladly say adios and consider time played as time wasted.

This. I would gladly accept refund of my 45€ for a HoT and because I will get banned after that will gladly accept 60€ for core game that I purchased 3 years ago. So thats 105€ to use on something else. Can I get that?

You want a refund for the core game too? Thats like ordering a steak at a restaurant, eating 90% of it, and then asking for a refund because it wasn’t cooked to order.

Nearly the same thing with HoT…we are how many months into the launch of HoT?

I agree that it’s extreme and unreasonable. But I also think it’s just as unreasonable for Anet to terminate the entire account in cases where only HoT was refunded (whether in full or partially).

mrstealth.6701:

cesmode.4257:

Ragnarox.9601:

cosmicegg.8502:

I would rather they gave me what was advertised and paid for then then allow them to get away with cheating on a deal. I would accept a refund if it included all my gem purchases and then gladly say adios and consider time played as time wasted.

This. I would gladly accept refund of my 45€ for a HoT and because I will get banned after that will gladly accept 60€ for core game that I purchased 3 years ago. So thats 105€ to use on something else. Can I get that?

You want a refund for the core game too? Thats like ordering a steak at a restaurant, eating 90% of it, and then asking for a refund because it wasn’t cooked to order.

Nearly the same thing with HoT…we are how many months into the launch of HoT?

I agree that it’s extreme and unreasonable. But I also think it’s just as unreasonable for Anet to terminate the entire account in cases where only HoT was refunded (whether in full or partially).

Whether or not what you say is true, there might be a reason.

Example: If you purchased HoT…acquired HoT specific items(gear? cosmetics?)…it would be very very difficult for Arenanet to do a rollback on your account to remove all HoT specific items only and leave you with the core game(and core game items) only.

I don’t want to come off as a white knight here. Anyone who was around a few years ago knows me as a vocal opponent to Arenanets development direction and their constant redirects and misguiding statements. And any inclination that I have to reinstall the game is based solely on my desire to feel like part of a community in WvW and just get lost in the gorgeous game (and not its game systems).

cesmode.4257:

Ragnarox.9601:

cosmicegg.8502:

I would rather they gave me what was advertised and paid for then then allow them to get away with cheating on a deal. I would accept a refund if it included all my gem purchases and then gladly say adios and consider time played as time wasted.

This. I would gladly accept refund of my 45€ for a HoT and because I will get banned after that will gladly accept 60€ for core game that I purchased 3 years ago. So thats 105€ to use on something else. Can I get that?

You want a refund for the core game too? Thats like ordering a steak at a restaurant, eating 90% of it, and then asking for a refund because it wasn’t cooked to order.

Nearly the same thing with HoT…we are how many months into the launch of HoT?

He doesn’t want a refund for core, he is saying that if getting a refund for HoT will ban his account then he deserves a refund for core. Which he does. Core and HoT are separate purchases, refunding one should not negate the other without also including a refund for the other.

As far as how long HoT has been out is irrelevant, the periodic release of legendaries was part of HoT, with them cancelled the deal has been altered and thus reparations are in order.

cesmode.4257:

Ragnarox.9601:

cosmicegg.8502:

I would rather they gave me what was advertised and paid for then then allow them to get away with cheating on a deal. I would accept a refund if it included all my gem purchases and then gladly say adios and consider time played as time wasted.

This. I would gladly accept refund of my 45€ for a HoT and because I will get banned after that will gladly accept 60€ for core game that I purchased 3 years ago. So thats 105€ to use on something else. Can I get that?

You want a refund for the core game too? Thats like ordering a steak at a restaurant, eating 90% of it, and then asking for a refund because it wasn’t cooked to order.

Nearly the same thing with HoT…we are how many months into the launch of HoT?

Yes I do want full refund, cause they ban accounts for refunding HoT. So my 60€ for core game is what? abducted by aliens? I don’t care of time period if stuff promised isn’t delivered.

Its like buying new Audi a4 2.5TDI for full price and in the end you get audi a4 1.9TDI cause they ran out of car that I wanted while i paid full price for it.

cesmode.4257:

mrstealth.6701:

cesmode.4257:

Ragnarox.9601:

cosmicegg.8502:

I would rather they gave me what was advertised and paid for then then allow them to get away with cheating on a deal. I would accept a refund if it included all my gem purchases and then gladly say adios and consider time played as time wasted.

This. I would gladly accept refund of my 45€ for a HoT and because I will get banned after that will gladly accept 60€ for core game that I purchased 3 years ago. So thats 105€ to use on something else. Can I get that?

You want a refund for the core game too? Thats like ordering a steak at a restaurant, eating 90% of it, and then asking for a refund because it wasn’t cooked to order.

Nearly the same thing with HoT…we are how many months into the launch of HoT?

I agree that it’s extreme and unreasonable. But I also think it’s just as unreasonable for Anet to terminate the entire account in cases where only HoT was refunded (whether in full or partially).

Whether or not what you say is true, there might be a reason.

Example: If you purchased HoT…acquired HoT specific items(gear? cosmetics?)…it would be very very difficult for Arenanet to do a rollback on your account to remove all HoT specific items only and leave you with the core game(and core game items) only.

I don’t doubt that is a big reason why refunds are handled as such. I guess it’s more correct to say that either scenario for a refund inflicts unfair damages onto one of the involved parties. The time spent being able to play the game is surely worth something to both sides, but isn’t easily quantified.

Obtena.7952:

Yes, I do refuse to change my stand because I realize for me, HoT still gives the value for money I spent on it, even if they don’t deliver every bit of content they promised. In fact, I think it delivers more than the $50 I spent on the expansion, so a few undelivered here or there doesn’t matter to me.

I get it matters to others; that’s not my problem here. The egregious part of this thread to me is the insistence on a refund, especially when full refund is being demanded. Also the instance by some that Anet did this because of malicious intent; that’s just stupid.

I must have missed the part where you said you were debating the refund aspect, I was referring to the lack of delivering what they promised.

As for you feeling you got your moneys worth I congratulate you on feeling this way. I feel neither cheated or fulfilled, I’m still waiting to see what the April update brings.

My biggest complaint (like I said Legendary’s are not an issue for me) would be the technical issues. The lost connections constantly with no feedback since HoT released.

I couldn’t say how many lost connections I have had in the middle and towards the end of event (All areas PvP as well as PvE) where the reward was lost. I know its just a few pixels on a screen but there if we are going to refer to that then $50.00 for lost pixels is too much.

Dinks.2478:

He doesn’t want a refund for core, he is saying that if getting a refund for HoT will ban his account then he deserves a refund for core. Which he does. Core and HoT are separate purchases, refunding one should not negate the other without also including a refund for the other.

And a refund for core is an unreasonable expectation if a player has spent any appreciable time playing it. Especially a full refund. You paid for time and access, you got time and access as far as core is concerned… both parties have lived up to their ends of that part of the license. HoT is treated separately as far as refunds are concerned, but it is still part of the larger agreement to access GW2… so you no longer agree to part of the license, the entire license is ended. It would be nice if it could be reverted back to non-HoT, but for the time being it’s not.

~EW

Obtena.7952:

Yes, I do refuse to change my stand because I realize for me, HoT still gives the value for money I spent on it, even if they don’t deliver every bit of content they promised. In fact, I think it delivers more than the $50 I spent on the expansion, so a few undelivered here or there doesn’t matter to me.

I completely agree. Value for money seems to be one of the core things being argued in this thread, and I’m satisfied with what I got, too.

Obtena.7952:

I get it matters to others; that’s not my problem here. The egregious part of this thread to me is the insistence on a refund, especially when full refund is being demanded. Also the instance by some that Anet did this because of malicious intent; that’s just stupid.

Also agreed.

~EW

There will be no refunds or court cases or grand consumer rights action. You can argue all you like.

bananaman.1685:

There will be no refunds or court cases or grand consumer rights action. You can argue all you like.

Bananaman has said we can’t sue guys, lets all pack it up and head home. Bananaman has overruled consumer protection laws we should just accept that.

Dinks.2478:

bananaman.1685:

There will be no refunds or court cases or grand consumer rights action. You can argue all you like.

Bananaman has said we can’t sue guys, lets all pack it up and head home. Bananaman has overruled consumer protection laws we should just accept that.

I think it’s more like you won’t sue, because even if your time is worthless, $50 isn’t worth the cost to try and get it. By all means, excercise your rights but at least be realistic. You or no one else is going to bully Anet into doing what you want because you threaten to sue them. That’s silly right.

After taking some time to cool down, I’m still mad. I want to make this very clear to Arenanet:

I will not buy anything until you fulfill your obligation to complete the first expansion pack.

Even after that, I will not buy any future expansions that do not include advertised content, but said content is promised to be added later. Only when the expansions have fully released all content advertised will I purchase them.

I will not support this decision. I fully realize A.net can close their ears and sing “la la la” because there are players that will continue to buy the product and my act of protest will likely accomplish nothing. However, I refuse to lay out the welcome mat and allow this kind of behavior to go unanswered. Not standing up to companies for acts such as this creates companies people complain about, but say they can do nothing about. This is what I can do.

It’s going to be pretty funny when they do a public presentation to announce the next expansion and announce “…and a set of New LegendARIES!!!” and everyone is like “wtf you can’t charge for those twice” instead of clapping.

PaladinVII.1647:

After taking some time to cool down, I’m still mad. I want to make this very clear to Arenanet:

I will not buy anything until you fulfill your obligation to complete the first expansion pack.

Even after that, I will not buy any future expansions that do not include advertised content, but said content is promised to be added later. Only when the expansions have fully released all content advertised will I purchase them.

The problem with this stance is that Guild Wars is buy once play for free for as long as you want AND get lots of FREE content over time as it’s ready. People got so upset about the price of the expansion and lack of ‘content’, but they forget this fundamental principle of how Guild Wars does things and all of the FREE content that would be released over time.

Unfortunately, new legendary weapons and precursor collections where promised as part of that content AND had been sorely missing for many years even though promised many years ago as well. They drive the economy as well as give many players something to look forward to and work on.

I am not mad but very disappointed. I wish there was something we could do about it, but I am at a loss how to get them back. I got such enjoyment out of Nevermore and was anxiously anticipating the next set, hoping one of them would appeal to me. Now I feel like they have cancelled Christmas effectively.

Dinks.2478:

Broken Memory.1436:

cesmode.4257:

I have a question…

Since legendaries are no longer a priority for arenanet….

What is there to do in GW2 these days that keep you progressing your character? What drives you to continue to log in, farm events, etc etc. Is it masteries or something?

(serious legit question…havent played for more than 20 minutes in 1.5 yrs)

Cesmode how much AP do you have? Waht level Fractal are you on? What is your PVP rank and your WVW rank? also how many Legendaries do you already own? If all of those things are high then i can understand your complaint for not grinding or playing for more than 20 min at a time. But if u only have 4k AP no fractals and so forth then please dont say them cancelling new legendaries is holting your character progression. When in fact it is just yourself that is the issue.

I am not Cesmode but to answer your question I have 22,599, am rank 76 PvP, idk probably like 400 WvW but WvW has been broken since launch and all of the blatant imbalance and game mode issues with it went ignored for that long so w/e, I have 7 legendaries one of which is HOPE and that is a choice because the other ones of the old set I don’t like and was looking forward to the new ones, I’m at level 80 personal level for Fractals (despite having the AR to do up to 100) since I basically realized all of the new instabilities are just boring ways of making the fight tedious and not actually more fun and that there is no motivation to do anything but swamp. If LS3 is even remotely similar to LS2 then it will amount to like 10 hours of content, and if that is true then I spent more hours working on just HOPE than I will ever spend on LS3.

Man making hope in only 20 mins thats impressive, I would think that would have been impossible since you need to complete all 4 maps of hot.

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

Tachenon.5270:

If your grocer charges you for a dozen eggs but only gives you eleven, then says he’s indefinitely suspending the selling of eggs because it’s better than he should use his chickens for chicken noodle soup, then refuses to even talk to you about it, much less offer any sort of compensation for the egg you didn’t get, would you continue to shop at his store? Would you recommend his store to your friends? Would you warn your friends about this grocer’s business practices?

If your grocer advertises a special of bogo cans of green beans, then tells you they can’t deliver them because they don’t have them, they’ll try and find ways to make up for it: rain check for when it comes back, even if they don’t have an eta (‘indefinitely postpone’), corn as a substitute (increased LW production), or refund. If you no longer trust the store, and hate their business practices, then you’re gunna wind up leaving in any case and not shop there again no matter what they do… so a refund is certainly viable: you walk away with your money back, and they don’t get it.

~EW

This is a dumb analogy, and touting the words “sunk cost fallacy” doesn’t help your argument at all.
If a company advertises certain content in a game but fails to deliver, a customer has every right to receive a refund.
However, in Anet’s case, getting that refund means locking out your whole account. So if you’re unhappy with HoT and you want a refund, you also lose the base game.
Now some of us paid full price for the base game, some even more, before it became F2P.
Being locked out of a game that we paid for because Anet failed to deliver on the expansion is not right.

Does ANet even give refunds when you contact them (account closure or not) after a set period of time after purchase? I thought they didn’t. If not, all the people saying you can contact support to get a refund to address an unhappiness with this situation have got it wrong. The choices are leave the game or continue. Contacting support to get a refund is probably not an option and shouldn’t be being discussed if it isn’t as its a distraction from the main point of this discussion.

cesmode.4257:

cosmicegg.8502:

Legitimate company’s that do business over the net have to be really carful about fraud. RICO could bite them in the kitten LLC or not.

RICO? LOL…someone has been watching too much sons of anarchy.

Actually nope read RICO.

https://jenner.com/system/assets/publications/12740/original/Civil_RICO_2014.pdf?1393971640

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Does ANet even give refunds when you contact them (account closure or not) after a set period of time after purchase? I thought they didn’t. If not, all the people saying you can contact support to get a refund to address an unhappiness with this situation have got it wrong. The choices are leave the game or continue. Contacting support to get a refund is probably not an option and shouldn’t be being discussed if it isn’t as its a distraction from the main point of this discussion.

Fair point. But, usually there’s a grace period after when you first purchase something that you’re allowed a refund… what that grace period is I have no clue, nor if certain people wouldn’t qualify. I think that’s largely up to an individual’s discussion with CS, and is likely considered on a case-by-case basis. I think that grace period is common enough that it still makes it worth discussing as a possibly viable option for people to pursue… but you’re right in that it’s hard to tell if that’s option leads to a dead end for some or all.

One of my mother’s favorite sayings: If you don’t ask, then the answer is always no.

~EW

You can argue about whether Anet broke a legal contract until you’re blue in the face. But the fact is no one is going to sue Anet over this so that’s all moot.

The important point is that Anet has lost all its credibility with customers, which means sales of the next expansion is going to be even lower than sales of this one.

Obtena.7952:

Yes, I do refuse to change my stand because I realize for me, HoT still gives the value for money I spent on it, even if they don’t deliver every bit of content they promised. In fact, I think it delivers more than the $50 I spent on the expansion, so a few undelivered here or there doesn’t matter to me.

I get it matters to others; that’s not my problem here. The egregious part of this thread to me is the insistence on a refund, especially when full refund is being demanded. Also the instance by some that Anet did this because of malicious intent; that’s just stupid.

No a full refund aint being demanded thats the only option, if a partial refund is in order for content not released that it would have to be paid in 100% of the accounts in question thats what some people have said about it.

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Does ANet even give refunds when you contact them (account closure or not) after a set period of time after purchase? I thought they didn’t. If not, all the people saying you can contact support to get a refund to address an unhappiness with this situation have got it wrong. The choices are leave the game or continue. Contacting support to get a refund is probably not an option and shouldn’t be being discussed if it isn’t as its a distraction from the main point of this discussion.

Fair point. But, usually there’s a grace period after when you first purchase something that you’re allowed a refund… what that grace period is I have no clue, nor if certain people wouldn’t qualify. I think that’s largely up to an individual’s discussion with CS, and is likely considered on a case-by-case basis. I think that grace period is common enough that it still makes it worth discussing as a possibly viable option for people to pursue… but you’re right in that it’s hard to tell if that’s option leads to a dead end for some or all.

One of my mother’s favorite sayings: If you don’t ask, then the answer is always no.

~EW

Well, its been almost 6 months now since HoT release. If there was a grace period for refunds, it’s undoubtedly past that now since anyone who bought a game 6 months ago would reasonably be assumed by support to have played it past any reasonable refund point.

Linken.6345:

Obtena.7952:

Yes, I do refuse to change my stand because I realize for me, HoT still gives the value for money I spent on it, even if they don’t deliver every bit of content they promised. In fact, I think it delivers more than the $50 I spent on the expansion, so a few undelivered here or there doesn’t matter to me.

I get it matters to others; that’s not my problem here. The egregious part of this thread to me is the insistence on a refund, especially when full refund is being demanded. Also the instance by some that Anet did this because of malicious intent; that’s just stupid.

No a full refund aint being demanded thats the only option, if a partial refund is in order for content not released that it would have to be paid in 100% of the accounts in question thats what some people have said about it.

There is a reason for that. Do you think it’s reasonable to get a refund for a service that doesn’t meet your expectations … then continue using that service? Of course, no one thinks about these things, they only want to be inline for a handout and maintain their access to the game because they aren’t reasonable, they just see an opportunity to get free stuff, be angry and do the same thing if another event makes them angry. At best you might see some compensation, like when they made dyes accountwide.

mrstealth.6701:

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

And there’s always the fine print, and there’s the eula, and there’s other factors in the local laws like what the allowable wriggle room is between marketing and the delivered product, and on, and on… all which mean that if you feel a company has broken the law, then you consult a lawyer who is versed in that law. ‘I feel wronged therefore the law must have been broken’ is not an acceptable conclusion to jump to… it is a valid and worthwhile possibility to explore if you’re invested enough to do so.

If you do, I’m very interested in what you find out, no matter what way it goes.

~EW

They most likely realize what they have done is wrong on an ethical level. It still could wrong on a legal one as well, but Anet does have a sense of security behind fine print, technicalities, and legal shielding provided their own EULA (it does contain anti-litigation/binding arbitration clauses). It’s not a matter of “I feel wronged so a law must have been broken”, it’s a matter of there being laws specifically made to stop companies from doing this very thing. It’s just prohibitively difficult and costly to pursue, with cost of seeking compensation is exponentially higher than the compensation itself could ever be.

It’s sort of like when someone with diplomatic immunity commits a crime. They know it’s wrong. Everyone else knows it’s wrong. There’s just kitten all anyone can actually do about it because of the fine print.

Not necessarily as Steam has the same clauses and they were prosecuted in Australia last week for giving false/misleading information about their refund policy. The legal issues are not just locked to 1 region, if they sell the game world wide they have way more laws to cater to.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Does ANet even give refunds when you contact them (account closure or not) after a set period of time after purchase? I thought they didn’t. If not, all the people saying you can contact support to get a refund to address an unhappiness with this situation have got it wrong. The choices are leave the game or continue. Contacting support to get a refund is probably not an option and shouldn’t be being discussed if it isn’t as its a distraction from the main point of this discussion.

Well they do aslong as you bought from their site if you dident then your out of luck.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Well, its been almost 6 months now since HoT release. If there was a grace period for refunds, it’s undoubtedly past that now since anyone who bought a game 6 months ago would reasonably be assumed by support to have played it past any reasonable refund point.

If there is a grace period it would be based on when the individual bought HoT and not when it released; true… so, yeah, still probably not that helpful who bought it at launch.

Even if a grace period has lapsed, do we know of anyone who’s contacted CS and said, “I bought HoT because of the legendaries, and since they’re indefinitely postponed I’d like a refund on HoT?” Many of the pages of this thread are running together in my mind now, so I don’t recall.

~EW

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

Even if a grace period has lapsed, do we know of anyone who’s contacted CS and said, “I bought HoT because of the legendaries, and since they’re indefinitely postponed I’d like a refund on HoT?” Many of the pages of this thread are running together in my mind now, so I don’t recall.

I would be interested in seeing how many people would take such a deal. Are the legendaries really worth so much that you would want a refund if it meant your account would revert back to the status of just owning the “Core” game – meaning no longer being able to use Elite professions, no access to Maguuma, and any other content that requires buying HoT?