Dear A-net: Please nerf rock. Paper is fine
~Sincerely, Scissors
~Sincerely, Scissors
"No-grind philosophy"
With no grind, they mean no mandatory grind. There is no gear threadmill.
You don’t have to grind in order to keep up. All the grind in this game is just for cosmetics. Sure there is ascended, but that’s only like 5% better than exotic so you don’t really need it.So is there grind for just cosmetics or cosmetics and stats?
5% is 5%, it’s there, it exists, you can’t deny it. You can choose to ignore it, convince yourself it’s not needed, attempt to convince others it’s not needed, but the fact of the matter remains, it’s a 5% increase in stats.Yes, a useless 5% is a useless 5%. And I never denied it’s existance, I merely pointed out the fact you don’t need it. I know it is not needed as all content can easily be completed without it (except fractals, but that’s because of agony resistance, not the stats itself).
You can try convincing yourself that this 5% increase is a big deal, but I know it is not.
Ah so, there is a grind for cosmetics and stats, since the 5% does exist.
It’s not a big deal, but you do need to grind for stats, regardless how significant or insignificant people on the forums choose to view them.
(miss wrote something.)
(edited by Zero Day.2594)
With no grind, they mean no mandatory grind. There is no gear threadmill.
You don’t have to grind in order to keep up. All the grind in this game is just for cosmetics. Sure there is ascended, but that’s only like 5% better than exotic so you don’t really need it.So is there grind for just cosmetics or cosmetics and stats?
5% is 5%, it’s there, it exists, you can’t deny it. You can choose to ignore it, convince yourself it’s not needed, attempt to convince others it’s not needed, but the fact of the matter remains, it’s a 5% increase in stats.
OK, you do know you can do the LS in exotic gear right? I bet even in rare and a green or two. You can do any of the events in the world too, WITHOUT ascended. Why do people think that Anet is holding a bag of kittens over molten lava threatening them that if you don’t get ascended gear, they drop them. They aren’t! You don’t have to!
With no grind, they mean no mandatory grind. There is no gear threadmill.
You don’t have to grind in order to keep up. All the grind in this game is just for cosmetics. Sure there is ascended, but that’s only like 5% better than exotic so you don’t really need it.So is there grind for just cosmetics or cosmetics and stats?
5% is 5%, it’s there, it exists, you can’t deny it. You can choose to ignore it, convince yourself it’s not needed, attempt to convince others it’s not needed, but the fact of the matter remains, it’s a 5% increase in stats.Yes, a useless 5% is a useless 5%. And I never denied it’s existance, I merely pointed out the fact you don’t need it. I know it is not needed as all content can easily be completed without it (except fractals, but that’s because of agony resistance, not the stats itself).
You can try convincing yourself that this 5% increase is a big deal, but I know it is not.
Ah so, there is a grind for cosmetics and stats, since the 5% does exist.
It’s bit a deal, but you do need to grind for stats.
There isn’t a grind for stats or cosmetics. You can buy whatever cosmetics your after. Mats you need for stats drop in many different content of the game.
Grinding has a traditional meaning with regard to MMOs. People want to apply their own definition to grind.
For years, the only definition I EVER heard for grind was killing mobs to level. Everything else was farming.
Yes, people use the word grind every liberally, but then, Guild Wars 1 had plenty of grind too if you were talking optional grind. You just didn’t grind for levels.
Anet explained what they meant by grind many times in interviews and at conventions after the manifesto.
If you choose to try to apply a different definition, it’s probably not Anet’s fault.
That seems quite a limited definition using only one connotation. I’ve heard it used for years as simply meaning ‘something you have to do repetitively’. For example a Gear Grind, which I guess you could say ascended is, but I think what we’re coming into is the Heap Paradox type thing. At what point is it a grind? Is it after you have to repeat it Once? Twice? Ten times? Twenty? At what point is it considered a Grind? To that end it’s a bit subjective.
In other games I’d have to repeat a raid sometimes 100+ times, that was pretty well accepted as a Gear Grind.
Overall I think ANet does a great job of limiting it while still providing a time sink for those who enjoy that. The only thing I’d consider a grind is getting AR in Fractals, but… you do it to get access to higher level fractals and nothing else, so you’re doing fractals so you can do harder fractals. I don’t see that as a negative thing as you should probably gain a mastery of the content before going into the higher ones anyways, and with infused stuff you can kind of skip any alts ahead now that you can pass the trinkets around.
So again, I would agree with ANet that it’s a no grind game, but I do think there is room to argue that it does have it’s grinds, it’s just that they are relatively painless compared to other games and very much optional in most situations. I will say I think Dragonite should drop in fractals/dungeons though as it’s the only “game mode” that doesn’t have access to it (maybe I’m wrong but I consider World Bosses part of general PVE, but Dungeons/fractals as a separate entity, General PVE/Dungeon&Fractal/PVP/WvW).
OK, I think I see the problem here. Grinding and Farming are trying to be tied down under one thing.
Grinding is usually associated with levels (ex an expansion raising lv cap), or attaining gear you NEED to progress to the next tier of difficulty, in which case you must grind again for new gear stats to continue on and on. In other words, grind is a MUST.
Farming, on the other hand, is used to get stuff that is optional for different reasons. Some farm for gold, others for looks, and some for some kind of pristeige (as in WoW you use to farm old raids for mounts).
And there’s the problem. Some players feel the NEED to get that optional stuff, so they call it a grind, when really, they are just farming. You actually don’t NEED anything in the silverwastes. You don’t NEED anything in dry top. But because it feels like something you NEED, its thought of as a grind, when really its a farm
I think the main problem here is that people do know the difference between farming and grinding, they are just being obtuse to find an argument to prove Anet is the worst MMO developer ever.
Well,
I personally feel, that it is a grind to acquire that 5% stat increase because:
It’s time-gated (without much of a necessity. Was it to make crafting worth it? Ha….),
The cost in mats is a little insane. (Was it to bridge the gap between legendaries and exotics? Lol)
Perhaps it’s not a grind because everything is miraculously dropped from different contents of the game. Sure, let’s not say it’s grindy, people seem to take offense to it, or dislike the word (feel the meaning is misused), let’s just say it’s “unnecessarily prolonged acquisition”. They didn’t implement something grind, ever, oh no, it was just unnecessarily prolonged to acquire an item via the time gating and the cost.
And then there’s the you need it or not…
You don’t need it. Actually, you don’t need to play this game. You don’t need to respond on the forums. You don’t need to do a lot of things. You choose to want to do those things… You don’t need blue/green/yellow/orange/purple gear, hell you can do it in white! It will just take more time, but you can do it! So you don’t need to upgrade ever! Hell, you can load into LA, or where ever you left off, take your hands off the keyboard, twiddle your thumbs, and log out, since you didn’t need to do anything. And that could be your play session on gw2. Why don’t you guys go ahead and do that for me, since I told you that you don’t need to do anything.
What I “need” or want, doesn’t have to align with anyone else’s needs or wants on these forums.
Grinding has a traditional meaning with regard to MMOs. People want to apply their own definition to grind.
For years, the only definition I EVER heard for grind was killing mobs to level. Everything else was farming.
Yes, people use the word grind every liberally, but then, Guild Wars 1 had plenty of grind too if you were talking optional grind. You just didn’t grind for levels.
Anet explained what they meant by grind many times in interviews and at conventions after the manifesto.
If you choose to try to apply a different definition, it’s probably not Anet’s fault.
Anet made it clear in the PAX announcement that THEY do not share the interpretation that you mention. The founder and current head of the company as well as the director of the game made statements indicating that grind was not specific or exclusive to leveling.
We are not the ones applying a definition different than your own. Anet’s top people are.
No I’m using the definition in wikipedia, and I’d love to see those quotes, because I watched the whole thing and I didn’t see them. So where are they?
You didnt see the part, for example, where Colin referenced Anet’s no grind philosophy as regards to learning new abilities such as hang gliding, gaining access to otherwise unaccessible content by learning native languages, etc…all without any character leveling ?
Yes I did see this. This proves my point, it doesn’t contradict it.
I think the main problem here is that people do know the difference between farming and grinding, they are just being obtuse to find an argument to prove Anet is the worst MMO developer ever.
Nah people don’t know the difference between farming and grinding. Grind has come to mean doing something I don’t like to do, rather than doing the same thing repeatedly.
In Aion, we ran out of quests and had to grind the same bosses over and over again to level to progress. That’s the original definition of grind. Farming was never grinding.
This is from Wikipedia:
Grinding is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive tasks during video games.12 *The most common usage is in the context of MMORPGs like Realm of the Mad God, Tibia, or Lineage 3 in which it is often necessary for a character to repeatedly kill AI-controlled monsters, using basically the same strategy over and over again to advance their character level to be able to access newer content. *
Please sir, find that game that has no grind and only has content and enjoy it for yourself.
Elder Scrolls
Mass Effect
Fallout
Dragon AgeIt’s actually quite easy to make a game with no grind and only content. The thing is, you won’t be able to play it for a loooong time. All of the individual titles in those franchises I played like 100 to 400 hours each. Guild Wars 2 I played 2,500 hours.
And that’s what MMO devs want, to keep you playing. So yea, it is possible, they just won’t do it.
I am talking about MMORPGs.
May not have been clear in my original post.
Those games actually have a fair amount of repetition and needless padding. Although I’m not sure it’s called grind, or particularly perceived to be grind even through it serves the same purpose as grind i.e. extending play time.
Time gate is not equal to grind.
See what I mean. Many different names for somewhat related concepts with similar goals.
In the last game I played, I’d have to play a dungeon a few times to buy one armor piece. I then would have to go farm the same creature for 20+ of a very rare drop to fully upgrade ONE armor piece. So no, I do not find GW2’s gear acquisition to be grindy. When you “grind” for things in this game, that is a choice. You can buy exotic gear off of the TP, or you can run dungeons or craft it. A new level 80 can be geared fully in minutes. Ascended is not necessary, though you can even buy all of its components from the TP.
“When you “grind” for things in this game, that is a choice.” Of course it’s a choice, it’s always a choice, it was a choice in that other game you played as well. Nobody holding a gun to your head telling you, you need to grind, you will life not grinding.
That said, this game is all about cosmetics and if you like to collect fun or nice looking things being it mini’s, toys, instruments, weapons skins and so on you do end in an endless grind or you buy it (the gold or the item) or you ignore them (it’s a choice).
And the way you talked about the other game at least that did send you over the world rewarding for specific content. First you where farming a dungeon, then you where farming a mob maybe some items you wanted did have a 100% drop change or where rewarded for completing a dungeon or a quest. You where doing different things including farming to get the items you wanted.
The problem in GW2 is that many items are simply not directly available (in a reasonable way) in the game, so it’s grind gold, grind gold and grind gold to get it. Then for the next item you want the same and the for the next and the next and the next.
While collecting those items could be much more fun (the way you describe it from that other game sounds like more fun to hunt down items you want then grinding gold all the time).
And sure you don’t need to do it, I don’t but then what do you do if collecting these things is one of the things you would love to do (but can’t or won’t do in GW2 because it’s all about grinding gold?) Well then people complain about lack of end-game and / or leave the game being bored with it.
Basically the whole excuse you give in the comment is that it’s not bad in GW2 because it’s optional but like I said, it is just as optional in the other game but if getting those items is what you like to do it is a problem. Just as in the other game you liked to get that armor piece.
And there’s the problem. Some players feel the NEED to get that optional stuff, so they call it a grind, when really, they are just farming. You actually don’t NEED anything in the silverwastes. You don’t NEED anything in dry top. But because it feels like something you NEED, its thought of as a grind, when really its a farm
You don’t NEED to play the game. “NEED” is rather irrelevant in this context. The reward system has been created in such a way that it rewards grind and basically only grind… And it appears that ArenaNet does not want players to grind, as they have said before and have repeated now.
Well, looks like they have failed to achieve that goal.
:/ Man this thread feels oddly familiar… If I remember correctly, no one got anywhere in the old thread…
This is from Wikipedia:
Grinding is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive tasks during video games.12 *The most common usage is in the context of MMORPGs like Realm of the Mad God, Tibia, or Lineage 3 in which it is often necessary for a character to repeatedly kill AI-controlled monsters, using basically the same strategy over and over again to advance their character level to be able to access newer content. *
Wouldn’t the rest of the quote be relevant as well?
“Grinding may be required by some games to unlock additional features such as level progression or additional items.”
I don’t think GW2 has terrible grind. I just can’t believe how grindy ascended gear is, which just so happens to be the best gear in the game, but that could possibly be cancelled out because there is no gear treadmill.
(edited by Fernling.1729)
In the last game I played, I’d have to play a dungeon a few times to buy one armor piece.
Have you ever acquired a dungeon armor piece in GW2? You need to play a dungeon a few times to buy one piece as well. Same thing.
That’s only a piece of what I said. If you read the rest of my post, you would see that getting top tier gear isn’t the same. Sorry, I’m not letting you make me look like an idiot. In GW2, yes, you play a dungeon a few times to acquire a piece of equipment. That piece of equipment (speaking in exotics, not ascended) has all max stats the moment it is obtained, minus your choice of rune. In the game I was referring to, I would play what they called a quest, much like a dungeon, to obtain a special item to make a piece of gear. That one new piece of gear then had to be upgraded twenty times with very rare materials to reach its max stats, and at least ten times to be useful (and you needed that new gear to be useful in a group). My point is that GW2 gear acquisition is not grindy in comparison to other games.
With no grind, they mean no mandatory grind.
cough agony resistance cough ascended gear
In the last game I played, I’d have to play a dungeon a few times to buy one armor piece. I then would have to go farm the same creature for 20+ of a very rare drop to fully upgrade ONE armor piece. So no, I do not find GW2’s gear acquisition to be grindy. When you “grind” for things in this game, that is a choice. You can buy exotic gear off of the TP, or you can run dungeons or craft it. A new level 80 can be geared fully in minutes. Ascended is not necessary, though you can even buy all of its components from the TP.
“When you “grind” for things in this game, that is a choice.” Of course it’s a choice, it’s always a choice, it was a choice in that other game you played as well. Nobody holding a gun to your head telling you, you need to grind, you will life not grinding.
That said, this game is all about cosmetics and if you like to collect fun or nice looking things being it mini’s, toys, instruments, weapons skins and so on you do end in an endless grind or you buy it (the gold or the item) or you ignore them (it’s a choice).
And the way you talked about the other game at least that did send you over the world rewarding for specific content. First you where farming a dungeon, then you where farming a mob maybe some items you wanted did have a 100% drop change or where rewarded for completing a dungeon or a quest. You where doing different things including farming to get the items you wanted.
The problem in GW2 is that many items are simply not directly available (in a reasonable way) in the game, so it’s grind gold, grind gold and grind gold to get it. Then for the next item you want the same and the for the next and the next and the next.
While collecting those items could be much more fun (the way you describe it from that other game sounds like more fun to hunt down items you want then grinding gold all the time).
And sure you don’t need to do it, I don’t but then what do you do if collecting these things is one of the things you would love to do (but can’t or won’t do in GW2 because it’s all about grinding gold?) Well then people complain about lack of end-game and / or leave the game being bored with it.
Basically the whole excuse you give in the comment is that it’s not bad in GW2 because it’s optional but like I said, it is just as optional in the other game but if getting those items is what you like to do it is a problem. Just as in the other game you liked to get that armor piece.
Actually, the new gear was not optional in that other game. You needed the top tier gear to complete the newest content. There were not many options for getting drops, and you could not go around a world hunting items. I’m sorry that I gave any example now because people are picking it apart on assumptions. It would be like your armor needing 28 charged lodestones to upgrade, and the only way to obtain them was from sparks in Orr at their current drop rate. The strategy was go into a high level quest/dungeon, and break the head of a monster. This would drop an item, and the item you need would drop about 1 in 50+ tries. Multiplied by 6 pieces of gear, no it was not fun nor was it optional.
Some people clearly need a recall :
- An MMO is considered “grindy” if one has to repeat a small set of simple and uninteresting tasks in order to reach the level cap and enjoy the “end-game content”
- Having objects or rewards that require grind in a game does not make it “grindy”
- In GW2 the end-game content can be summed up as : dry top + silverwastes ; megaboss ; living world ; dungeons and fractals. Of all these only fractals of level 10+ require ascended equipment. Thus one with exotic gear can access 100% of endgame content since you walk through the same fractals at level or 50 (only the difficulty changes).
- And GW2 gives you tools to bypass the leveling process for your alts (exp tomes + skill scrolls + gold to buy traits).
With that in mind, one cannot possibly claim that GW2 is a grindy MMO. The ones who do either :
- Want everything handeled to them immediately without breaking a sweat.
- bash the game for the sake of bashing Anet/the game.
Edit : I’d also like to remind you all that ascended tier items were added because a vocal minority (not pointing fingers here) asked for something to grind for once they’ve finished the game.
Well that is then your definition of a grindy game just as it is your definition of end-game.
“if one has to repeat a small set of simple and uninteresting tasks” this part I am willing to agree on for the biggest part.. You know like grinding gold in GW2.
“in order to reach the level cap and enjoy the “end-game content”" Having to do that to reach level cap is one thing that can be grindy but not the only thing. Just as the end-game itself can be very grindy.
“Having objects or rewards that require grind in a game does not make it "grindy"" Sure, if there are some items or rewards that does not make the complete game grindy. Agreed
“In GW2 the end-game content can be summed up as : dry top + silverwastes ; megaboss ; living world ; dungeons and fractals.” So why is collecting cosmetics in this game, that is based around cosmetics, not on your list. Because in other games that is my end-game and I would love to have it as end-game in this game that is all about cosmetics. In fact it does exist in this game but it is then grinding gold, grinding gold and grinding even more gold (or buying it with cash). In fact, those things you talk about here are a few that things getting grinded for the gold mainly to buy those items.
How many people are doing the world bosses over and over again just because they love doing the world bosses? Or are they doing it for the special drops? Rarely, or are they just grinding them for gold? yeah most I know do it mainly for the gold grind. People move around a little to whatever makes them the most gold.
“With that in mind, one cannot possibly claim that GW2 is a grindy MMO. The ones who do either :
- Want everything handeled to them immediately without breaking a sweat.
- bash the game for the sake of bashing Anet/the game."
Yeah.. no.
I just explained why it’s so grindy. And I definitely do not want everything handed out to me, if I wanted that I could simply buy most of those items directly form the cash-shop or by buying gold from the cash-shop. No I want interested content that rewards me those things. A craft that rewards me the instruments. Dungeons, quest, events, world-bosses, WvW achievements and so on that reward me all those mini’s. Same for the many skins and same for the finishers and so on. I want to play different content that all rewards it’s own thing.
People who dislike Anet or the game so much will not take the time to be here.
Now if people are not interested in those cosmetics (what the heck are they then doing in GW2?) I can understand it’s not grindy for them. Just as I never did feel the grind in the great treadmill games because I was never interested in the best gear.
Fact is this game is focused around cosmetics and collecting them is what is so grindy. Well and the highest tier level items is as well I guess but like I said I personally don’t really care for that.
(edited by Devata.6589)
This is from Wikipedia:
Grinding is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive tasks during video games.12 *The most common usage is in the context of MMORPGs like Realm of the Mad God, Tibia, or Lineage 3 in which it is often necessary for a character to repeatedly kill AI-controlled monsters, using basically the same strategy over and over again to advance their character level to be able to access newer content. *
Like how people kill the world bosses over and over again to grind for the gold to then but the items they like?
Also from that same wiki: [Grinding may be required by some games to unlock additional features such as level progression or additional items.] [Some games, especially free-to-play games, allow players to bypass grinding by paying additional fees.] That is funny, you can bypass the grind I just talked about by simply buying those items from the cash-shop or by buying gold to buy those items you want.
(edited by Devata.6589)
With no grind, they mean no mandatory grind.
cough agony resistance cough ascended gear
Fractals isn’t mandatory.
You can get a completely maxed out character, participate effectively in pve, pvp and wvw without ever touching fractals.
Dear A-net: Please nerf rock. Paper is fine
~Sincerely, Scissors
~Sincerely, Scissors
Here we have a full transcript of yesterday’s presentation (thanks to the guy who wrote all that down).
Interestingly, twice Colin mentions “our no-grind philosophy for Guild Wars 2”.
It appears ArenaNet really believes their own Manifesto, when the same Colin said, “We don’t want players to grind”.
We just need to let them know that, between Ascended items and slow dungeon rewards and Legendaries and the new level-based unlocks and the new trait system unlock and etc etc, well… Their “no-grind philosophy” has been extremely grindy.
“No grind.” Not, “Nothing to do.”
This is that new sound. Ya’ll ain’t ready.
Their “no-grind philosophy” has been extremely grindy.
This is the most grindy game I have ever played. I mean seriously WoW is a mear fraction of the grind and with their new expansion that is hardly any grind. When I’m away at work I can even have the garrison follower out getting me loot and stuff.
Laughing at those that say mandatory grind. You have two type the optimal people who want to have best in slot and then you have everyone else who is sub optimal. Yes the sub optimal is non mandatory grind because they choose to not be the best they can be. For those that want the best the grind is ridiculous and extremely unrewarding.. I can look back at WoW legendaries and remember the efforts that were put in to get them by the guilds and players. With this game it’s grinding out RNG or pay to win purchases with RL money. Funny for a free to play game. Ohh well we’ll see if they ever bother to fix it. Will have to fix it for free though before wasting money on an expansion to fix what should have been there when payed for in the first place.
This post is a clear example of a person who has clearly no idea of what grind means neither have played the WoW expansion.
With no grind, they mean no mandatory grind.
cough agony resistance cough ascended gear
Fractals isn’t mandatory.
You can get a completely maxed out character, participate effectively in pve, pvp and wvw without ever touching fractals.
you can say same thing about raids in other games… but still other games are paraded as examples of gear grind even though we have almost exactly same thing in GW2.
(edited by Brahmincorle.1264)
In the last game I played, I’d have to play a dungeon a few times to buy one armor piece. I then would have to go farm the same creature for 20+ of a very rare drop to fully upgrade ONE armor piece. So no, I do not find GW2’s gear acquisition to be grindy. When you “grind” for things in this game, that is a choice. You can buy exotic gear off of the TP, or you can run dungeons or craft it. A new level 80 can be geared fully in minutes. Ascended is not necessary, though you can even buy all of its components from the TP.
“When you “grind” for things in this game, that is a choice.” Of course it’s a choice, it’s always a choice, it was a choice in that other game you played as well. Nobody holding a gun to your head telling you, you need to grind, you will life not grinding.
That said, this game is all about cosmetics and if you like to collect fun or nice looking things being it mini’s, toys, instruments, weapons skins and so on you do end in an endless grind or you buy it (the gold or the item) or you ignore them (it’s a choice).
And the way you talked about the other game at least that did send you over the world rewarding for specific content. First you where farming a dungeon, then you where farming a mob maybe some items you wanted did have a 100% drop change or where rewarded for completing a dungeon or a quest. You where doing different things including farming to get the items you wanted.
The problem in GW2 is that many items are simply not directly available (in a reasonable way) in the game, so it’s grind gold, grind gold and grind gold to get it. Then for the next item you want the same and the for the next and the next and the next.
While collecting those items could be much more fun (the way you describe it from that other game sounds like more fun to hunt down items you want then grinding gold all the time).
And sure you don’t need to do it, I don’t but then what do you do if collecting these things is one of the things you would love to do (but can’t or won’t do in GW2 because it’s all about grinding gold?) Well then people complain about lack of end-game and / or leave the game being bored with it.
Basically the whole excuse you give in the comment is that it’s not bad in GW2 because it’s optional but like I said, it is just as optional in the other game but if getting those items is what you like to do it is a problem. Just as in the other game you liked to get that armor piece.
Actually, the new gear was not optional in that other game. You needed the top tier gear to complete the newest content. There were not many options for getting drops, and you could not go around a world hunting items. I’m sorry that I gave any example now because people are picking it apart on assumptions. It would be like your armor needing 28 charged lodestones to upgrade, and the only way to obtain them was from sparks in Orr at their current drop rate. The strategy was go into a high level quest/dungeon, and break the head of a monster. This would drop an item, and the item you need would drop about 1 in 50+ tries. Multiplied by 6 pieces of gear, no it was not fun nor was it optional.
Well it was only required if you wanted to do that next bid of content just as in GW2 it’s only required if you want those items (and are not going to buy your way out of the grind).
What I mean with ’it’s never required’ is that it’s a game, you are not required to play a game so if people talk about things being optional or not it basically always comes down to if it is needed to reach a goal they personally like they consider it required but if it’s a goal somebody else might be interested in but they them self are not it’s optional.
As much as for you the goal was to do that higher level content or as for some people the goal is to do the highest level raids in some games (usually requiring farming for gear) for me it’s collecting those cosmetics. But if I was to try and reach that goal in GW2 I am ‘required’ to grind the gold. (Not going to do that, but then it means that type of end-game I like to do is not available here).
Fractals isn’t mandatory.
You can get a completely maxed out character, participate effectively in pve, pvp and wvw without ever touching fractals.
Fractals are a part of PVE, and therefore to be a completely maxed out character would require Ascended Gear in order to obtain agony resistance.
Aside from that, there’s, you know, that quote about even casual players having BiS gear by level 80, which ascended completely destroys.
Their “no-grind philosophy” has been extremely grindy.
This is the most grindy game I have ever played. I mean seriously WoW is a mear fraction of the grind and with their new expansion that is hardly any grind. When I’m away at work I can even have the garrison follower out getting me loot and stuff.
Laughing at those that say mandatory grind. You have two type the optimal people who want to have best in slot and then you have everyone else who is sub optimal. Yes the sub optimal is non mandatory grind because they choose to not be the best they can be. For those that want the best the grind is ridiculous and extremely unrewarding.. I can look back at WoW legendaries and remember the efforts that were put in to get them by the guilds and players. With this game it’s grinding out RNG or pay to win purchases with RL money. Funny for a free to play game. Ohh well we’ll see if they ever bother to fix it. Will have to fix it for free though before wasting money on an expansion to fix what should have been there when payed for in the first place.
This post is a clear example of a person who has clearly no idea of what grind means neither have played the WoW expansion.
You see, I hoped somebody did come up with this. I did not play WoW for years but did play a month for the 10th anniversary and I do not find it grindy at all. Maybe there is grind but then it’s for the content I do not care so much about. (so much for it being ‘required’ as some people say.
I love to collect mini’s. How do you do that in WoW? Different ways, quests, dungeons, achievements, crafts and so on all rewarding there own mini. How do you do it for about 90% of the mini’s in GW2? Grind gold and by them.
I also did go for that special mount they had for the 10th reverser what is purely cosmetic btw. They also have the flying carpet we also have in GW2. You know how to get it there? With a craft, you know how to get it in GW2? buy it with gold. They also have the flying broom, there it is rewarded from a dungeon, in GW2 gold. They have a barber, want to change your haircut in GW2 again a lot of gold, they have also many toys obtainable with fun-crafts like engineering or rewarded from quest, in Gw2 almost all gold.
No grind for me in WoW if it comes to those things, just fun end-game. Now WoW has it’s own problems and GW2 has it’s own pro’s but if it comes to this it’s interesting to show how you can’t say ‘oow GW2 has no grind but WoW is extremely grindy’. No, that just depends on your personal play-style.
This is from Wikipedia:
Grinding is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive tasks during video games.12 *The most common usage is in the context of MMORPGs like Realm of the Mad God, Tibia, or Lineage 3 in which it is often necessary for a character to repeatedly kill AI-controlled monsters, using basically the same strategy over and over again to advance their character level to be able to access newer content. *
Like how people kill the world bosses over and over again to grind for the gold to then but the items they like?
No, there is an exclusive distinction to be had there. Mandatory != Optional. Nothing in GW2 forces you to grind to remain on par with your fellow players.
Most people will agree that exotic gear is the standard, and there are a dozen ways to earn this gear that does not involve a significant time sink when compared to other games in the same genre.
The way you’re wanting to apply it means everything is a grind. That’s a wee bit disingenuous.
Fractals isn’t mandatory.
You can get a completely maxed out character, participate effectively in pve, pvp and wvw without ever touching fractals.Fractals are a part of PVE, and therefore to be a completely maxed out character would require Ascended Gear in order to obtain agony resistance.
Aside from that, there’s, you know, that quote about even casual players having BiS gear by level 80, which ascended completely destroys.
Don’t get me wrong I’m not defending ascended gear, I think it has no place in Guild Wars 2. All I’m saying is, it could have been much worse. At least Ascended gear is something we can ignore without getting severely penalized for it.
Dear A-net: Please nerf rock. Paper is fine
~Sincerely, Scissors
~Sincerely, Scissors
This is from Wikipedia:
Grinding is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive tasks during video games.12 *The most common usage is in the context of MMORPGs like Realm of the Mad God, Tibia, or Lineage 3 in which it is often necessary for a character to repeatedly kill AI-controlled monsters, using basically the same strategy over and over again to advance their character level to be able to access newer content. *
Like how people kill the world bosses over and over again to grind for the gold to then but the items they like?
No, there is an exclusive distinction to be had there. Mandatory != Optional. Nothing in GW2 forces you to grind to remain on par with your fellow players.
Most people will agree that exotic gear is the standard, and there are a dozen ways to earn this gear that does not involve a significant time sink when compared to other games in the same genre.
The way you’re wanting to apply it means everything is a grind. That’s a wee bit disingenuous.
Like I said multiple times. Nothing is mandatory!! It’s a game, the whole thing is optional.
And no, not everything is a grind if it also applies to optional things (what everything is). If I can get something directly for specific content with a 100% drop change it is not a grind. If I need to do it multiple times it becomes farming but if I just need to do whatever just to grind for a currency to get what I want, yes then it becomes a grind. (In GW2 that currency is gold and what you might want are cosmetics, in those wiki examples the currency is XP and the XP gets you levels as that is what some people want)
At least Ascended gear is something we can ignore without getting severely penalized for it.
Until that Raid CDI goes somewhere at least. Because the current “raids” won’t satisfy the people that want raids in this game. It may take years, but the genie has been released from its prison. At some point, not having ascended is going to become a gate to content as Anet raises the difficulty.
Like I said multiple times. Nothing is mandatory!! It’s a game, the whole thing is optional.
And no, not everything is a grind if it also applies to optional things (what everything is).
Okay then, by your admission, everything is a grind. Gotcha. You’re wrong mind you, but at least we all know what spin you’re trying to sell.
Like I said multiple times. Nothing is mandatory!! It’s a game, the whole thing is optional.
And no, not everything is a grind if it also applies to optional things (what everything is).
Okay then, by your admission, everything is a grind. Gotcha. You’re wrong mind you, but at least we all know what spin you’re trying to sell.
Nope not everything is a grind. Even explained that but you prefer to ignore that and just repeat yourself. And I am not selling anything. We all know people are grinding gold like mad in GW2 but according to you it does not count because it’s ‘optional’. It’s oke if you like this game but you are really fooling yourself not wanting to see the grind that is here just to protect negative things about the game. As if it’s a personal attack on you.
(edited by Devata.6589)
Until that Raid CDI goes somewhere at least. Because the current “raids” won’t satisfy the people that want raids in this game. It may take years, but the genie has been released from its prison.
As long as raids don’t have agony we will be fine.
At some point, not having ascended is going to become a gate to content as Anet raises the difficulty.
We don’t know that yet, it’s impossible to tell at this point. But I doubt it. Anet only added ascended gear because ex wow players kept whining for gear grind. And I think anet found a decent compromise. Adding a new gear tier for the people who think this is wow, but making it not powerful enough to be mandatory so everyone else isn’t forced to grind for it.
But yeah, you are not entirely wrong. Anet made gated content when they made fractals, so they could do it again with raids. Lets hope they won’t.
Dear A-net: Please nerf rock. Paper is fine
~Sincerely, Scissors
~Sincerely, Scissors
(edited by Windu The Forbidden One.6045)
As long as raids don’t have agony we will be fine.
You forget the stat boost. 5% is 5%. The moment raids are geared to ascended, that means that exotic gear is 5% less efficient.
We don’t know that yet, it’s impossible to tell at this point. But I doubt it. Anet only added ascended gear because ex wow players kept whining for gear grind. And I think anet found a decent compromise. Adding a new gear tier for the people who think this is wow, but making it not powerful enough to be mandatory so everyone else isn’t forced to grind for it.
But one gear tier isn’t enough to keep the ex-wow players around. If they want gear progression and raids and etc, then they’re going to want those things in a capacity that matters. They’ll want gear progression, and they’ll want said progression to actually matter. They’ll want raids that are actually difficult and require higher tiers of gear.
If ANet actually wants to keep them around, then it’s inevitable. Waffling around won’t do ANet any good.
What ANet did was kitten in either direction. It’s a small enough gain that it’s not going to satisfy progression players, but just enough of a gain that it completely invalidates the idea of casual players having BiS by level 80, and not having to worry about exotic eventually being truly subpar.
All it’s done is create problems.
But yeah, you are not entirely wrong. Anet made gated content when they made fractals, so they could do it again with raids. Lets hope they won’t.
I certainly hope they won’t as well.
I guess the difference between us in that regard is that I don’t have faith in them to not do that.
Also sorry I missed this part of your post. Dunno how I didn’t see it originally.
Like I said multiple times. Nothing is mandatory!! It’s a game, the whole thing is optional.
And no, not everything is a grind if it also applies to optional things (what everything is).
Okay then, by your admission, everything is a grind. Gotcha. You’re wrong mind you, but at least we all know what spin you’re trying to sell.
Nope not everything is a grind. Even explained that but you prefer to ignore that and just repeat yourself.
No I quite clearly made a distinction apparent there, to which you responded saying everything is optional.
Yes, everything is optional. Living is optional. Life sure is such a nasty grind! I mean, how general do you want to get here?
So following this brilliant path of relativism logic, playing the game is grinding according to you. Your words.
This is not what grinding is. It was pointed out to you several times, not just by me.
People farming money for pretty things is not an enforced mandatory grind required to remain relevant game-wise.
But in this regard, you are correct: I repeat myself. It just seems to go over your head. How about now? Savvy?
If you call Guild Wars 2 grindy, then you really haven’t played any other MMORPG.
Grind is always in the eye of the beholder. I define it as stuff I don’t like to do but have to to get X. But I don’t consider it grinding if you are simply trying to accumulate gold to by gems because you think everything should be “free”. Those people are just being cheap.
We are heroes. This is what we do!
RIP City of Heroes
RIP City of Heroes
sometimes you just have to accept that somethings are just marketing talk.
“no grind philosophy” as it applies to this game is in fact one of those marketing talk catch phrases.
he defines no grind in this case as being not having to do the same thing over and over on multiple charachters, and yet thats exactly what trait obtaining is right now.
Ascended is most obviously and completely a grind. Probably one of the most grindiest grinds out of most popular MMOs. Even exotics would be a serious grind if they did it the way they intended. Imagine if you couldnt buy exotics on the market, you would have to get 40000 karma per peice, or run dungeons 23 times to get a full set (doesnt include accessories or weapons)
so yeah just marketing speak, dont take it serious
Anyone who has played this game knows it has just as much if not more grind to achieve many things.
Like I said multiple times. Nothing is mandatory!! It’s a game, the whole thing is optional.
And no, not everything is a grind if it also applies to optional things (what everything is).
Okay then, by your admission, everything is a grind. Gotcha. You’re wrong mind you, but at least we all know what spin you’re trying to sell.
Nope not everything is a grind. Even explained that but you prefer to ignore that and just repeat yourself.
No I quite clearly made a distinction apparent there, to which you responded saying everything is optional.
Yes, everything is optional. Living is optional. Life sure is such a nasty grind! I mean, how general do you want to get here?
So following this brilliant path of relativism logic, playing the game is grinding according to you. Your words.
This is not what grinding is. It was pointed out to you several times, not just by me.
People farming money for pretty things is not an enforced mandatory grind required to remain relevant game-wise.
But in this regard, you are correct: I repeat myself. It just seems to go over your head. How about now? Savvy?
Lol or is it over your head? The fact that you consider it only grindy if it is ‘required’ and then you consider it required if it locks out content? And then you do not see items as content. (that’s your definition right?) Well within those borders you are correct. But that are your borders, your idea and on what you base your arguments that it’s not grindy.
Maybe stop for a moment and consider that other people (like those complaining about the grind) look at it in another way. If they consider it grindy because getting those ‘not mandatory’ items is a grind that does not mean they are wrong simply because it does not fits into your vision where grind only counts as grind if it’s ‘mandatory’ and then your definition of mandatory.
But I think we did gain some ground here. Basically you now do seem to agree there is a huge grind in this game “People farming money for pretty things” (so you see that is going on). But according to you this grind does not count as grind because it’s not ‘mandatory’. Oke it might be the preferred end-game for many people, especially in an game build around cosmetics. But it’s not ‘mandatory’. So the grind is there but it does not count as grind (for you).
Good that we at least reached that point. Now only consider that for many people that does just as well count as grind because what they like to do ‘playing this mandatory game and getting those mandatory items in it’ is so grindy.
Oow and the idea that I said the whole game is a grind still makes no sense. Just saying.
(edited by Devata.6589)
If you call Guild Wars 2 grindy, then you really haven’t played any other MMORPG.
That is an assumption I know for a fact is wrong as I do consider GW2 grindy and did play multiple other mmo’s.
This is from Wikipedia:
Grinding is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive tasks during video games.12 *The most common usage is in the context of MMORPGs like Realm of the Mad God, Tibia, or Lineage 3 in which it is often necessary for a character to repeatedly kill AI-controlled monsters, using basically the same strategy over and over again to advance their character level to be able to access newer content. *
Wouldn’t the rest of the quote be relevant as well?
“Grinding may be required by some games to unlock additional features such as level progression or additional items.”
I don’t think GW2 has terrible grind. I just can’t believe how grindy ascended gear is, which just so happens to be the best gear in the game, but that could possibly be cancelled out because there is no gear treadmill.
Nope the rest of the quote isn’t relevant. That is to say what I’ve said is providing THE MOST COMMON USEAGE.
Everything Anet has said from beginning to end, since the time of the manifesto supports the definition of THE MOST COMMON USEAGE.
The other definitions might or might not apply.
But if there is a MOST COMMON USEAGE, and that useage is supported by context, continually, then people who are not using the MOST COMMON USEAGE are being willfully ignorant.
If I make a statement and define what I mean and someone comes along and says this sentence can also mean this and this, it’s not relevant at all to my statement.
Grind is always in the eye of the beholder. I define it as stuff I don’t like to do but have to to get X. But I don’t consider it grinding if you are simply trying to accumulate gold to by gems because you think everything should be “free”. Those people are just being cheap.
I did not see anybody say everything should be free. Can you quote them? I for example have been asking for expansion for a long time. I would be fine having to had buy an expansion every year and paying for it that way.
No problem with that, no problem with paying for a game. But I have a problem with grind and I do like to have the end-game of collecting those items without the gold-grind.
Anyway, interested in seeing you quote of people saying everything should be free.
Grind is always in the eye of the beholder. I define it as stuff I don’t like to do but have to to get X. But I don’t consider it grinding if you are simply trying to accumulate gold to by gems because you think everything should be “free”. Those people are just being cheap.
I did not see anybody say everything should be free. Can you quote them? I for example have been asking for expansion for a long time. I would be fine having to had buy an expansion every year and paying for it that way.
No problem with that, no problem with paying for a game. But I have a problem with grind and I do like to have the end-game of collecting those items without the gold-grind.
Anyway, interested in seeing you quote of people saying everything should be free.
End-game collecting is grinding too, lol.
You GRIND for the gear to find it useless in three months.
I just think that you are playing the wrong game. There are many games with the end-game you are mentioning. Just go back to WoW or FFXIV and enjoy your time.
Even exotics would be a serious grind if they did it the way they intended. Imagine if you couldnt buy exotics on the market, you would have to get 40000 karma per peice, or run dungeons 23 times to get a full set (doesnt include accessories or weapons)
The original intention for Exotics was, “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game.” You’re referring to the revisionist history used to “justify” why they added Ascended.
As I recall, 42K karma per piece would have meant a long grind, for sure. My first character to 80 had not earned enough for one piece, never mind a set. But dungeons? Please. 23 runs is actually 23 paths, or 8 days for a full set of Exotic armor. If that’s grind, then patience is dead in this fallen world.
This is from Wikipedia:
Grinding is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive tasks during video games.12 *The most common usage is in the context of MMORPGs like Realm of the Mad God, Tibia, or Lineage 3 in which it is often necessary for a character to repeatedly kill AI-controlled monsters, using basically the same strategy over and over again to advance their character level to be able to access newer content. *
Wouldn’t the rest of the quote be relevant as well?
“Grinding may be required by some games to unlock additional features such as level progression or additional items.”
I don’t think GW2 has terrible grind. I just can’t believe how grindy ascended gear is, which just so happens to be the best gear in the game, but that could possibly be cancelled out because there is no gear treadmill.
Nope the rest of the quote isn’t relevant. That is to say what I’ve said is providing THE MOST COMMON USEAGE.
Everything Anet has said from beginning to end, since the time of the manifesto supports the definition of THE MOST COMMON USEAGE.
The other definitions might or might not apply.
But if there is a MOST COMMON USEAGE, and that useage is supported by context, continually, then people who are not using the MOST COMMON USEAGE are being willfully ignorant.
If I make a statement and define what I mean and someone comes along and says this sentence can also mean this and this, it’s not relevant at all to my statement.
Even if it was true that was ‘the most common usages’ it does not mean the other usages suddenly do not count as grind anymore. So if people talk about grind they all count equally (that includes Anet talking about grind!). And that paragraph where you quoted from even ends with the sentence [Grinding may be required by some games to unlock additional features such as level progression or additional items.] so the article itself refers to grind for getting additional items. Exactly what is going on here.
Besides you did not make a statement and defined what you meant. You simply quoted a definition (well part of it) from wiki seemingly to proof that, that was the definition of grind. It was not like you said.. I do not find it grindy because for me grindy means this and it does not fit into this. If you did then we might be able to agree it did not fit into your definition what is btw completely irrelevant for the people who consider it grindy.
It seems like everybody here agrees there is grind in GW2 only some want to ignore it because that grind does not count according to them. And I can understand that that grind does not effect there personal game-play but that does not mean it does not count for other people.
Grind is always in the eye of the beholder. I define it as stuff I don’t like to do but have to to get X. But I don’t consider it grinding if you are simply trying to accumulate gold to by gems because you think everything should be “free”. Those people are just being cheap.
I did not see anybody say everything should be free. Can you quote them? I for example have been asking for expansion for a long time. I would be fine having to had buy an expansion every year and paying for it that way.
No problem with that, no problem with paying for a game. But I have a problem with grind and I do like to have the end-game of collecting those items without the gold-grind.
Anyway, interested in seeing you quote of people saying everything should be free.
I wasn’t replying to you I was stating my opinion on the subject. I’m sure the devs have their own definition and it may be the stuff they had found grindy in other MMOs not being present in their game. Some players may think dailies are grindy while others see it as a to do list for guided play.
The point is to each their own.
We are heroes. This is what we do!
RIP City of Heroes
RIP City of Heroes
Grind is always in the eye of the beholder. I define it as stuff I don’t like to do but have to to get X. But I don’t consider it grinding if you are simply trying to accumulate gold to by gems because you think everything should be “free”. Those people are just being cheap.
I did not see anybody say everything should be free. Can you quote them? I for example have been asking for expansion for a long time. I would be fine having to had buy an expansion every year and paying for it that way.
No problem with that, no problem with paying for a game. But I have a problem with grind and I do like to have the end-game of collecting those items without the gold-grind.
Anyway, interested in seeing you quote of people saying everything should be free.
End-game collecting is grinding too, lol.
You GRIND for the gear to find it useless in three months.I just think that you are playing the wrong game. There are many games with the end-game you are mentioning. Just go back to WoW or FFXIV and enjoy your time.
“End-game collecting is grinding too, lol.
You GRIND for the gear to find it useless in three months.”
Having a hard time translating this to proper English.
The end-game of collecting items / cometics in this game is indeed very grindy. It’s the grind I and many people are talking about yes. It does not have to be gear, it can even be things like mini’s.
“I just think that you are playing the wrong game. There are many games with the end-game you are mentioning. Just go back to WoW or FFXIV and enjoy your time.”
Ah that one is always useful. So I like to collect cosmetics and I prefer B2P games. Because of that I come to a B2P game that is all based on cosmetics but then if I say the end-game of collecting these things is grindy suddenly it’s not the game for me anymore. In stead I should go play WoW. But you are right.. This part is much better in WoW, not so grindy as in GW2.
However, does this statement of you then mean we finally conclude that this is indeed a grind in GW2. And so it kinda destroys this part of the end-game for GW2.
It took a long road but we are finally there it seems.
And yes I do sometimes play other games and many many many other people did as well, they even completely left GW2 over the last two years of who many because of this reason. But aren’t you supposed to love this game seeing how you defend it so much. And if so would you not want this game to be very successful with many people in stead of people leaving because these sorts of reasons?
With this philosophy Anet would never have to improve anything after release and if people did not like things they should just leave. (Not to mention that improving this would not hurt you very much)
(edited by Devata.6589)
Even exotics would be a serious grind if they did it the way they intended. Imagine if you couldnt buy exotics on the market, you would have to get 40000 karma per peice, or run dungeons 23 times to get a full set (doesnt include accessories or weapons)
The original intention for Exotics was, “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game.” You’re referring to the revisionist history used to “justify” why they added Ascended.
As I recall, 42K karma per piece would have meant a long grind, for sure. My first character to 80 had not earned enough for one piece, never mind a set. But dungeons? Please. 23 runs is actually 23 paths, or 8 days for a full set of Exotic armor. If that’s grind, then patience is dead in this fallen world.
23 paths is 23 dungeon runs, (the fact they are paths isnt to relevant, its how many times you have to do it. i can tell you from playing other MMOs recently, by the time you run it 23 times you likely have every drop there. The big difference there is lockouts. Which arent nearly as popular as they used to be.
They even said part of the reason ascended was needed was that they miscalculated how long it would take to get best in slot. (the market)
They did say they wanted people to have some 80 gear by the time they were 80, but then they also said they didnt expect people to hit max so quickly. Doesnt make too much sense but this is what they said. It does make sense for those who played at launch though. Getting crafting maxed, and then obtaining all the ecto, materials, was not much easier than running a dungeon a bunch of times (also back then people were taking 30-60 minutes per path)
So likely they didnt expect people to get it so fast, but people figured out how to earn gold fast, and how to beat certain dungeon paths in extremely fast times.
Point is, the game grind wise isnt any better than any other game. And for many things is in fact more grindy.
Its not the end of the world, but i think the point of the OP was, do they realize that this game is in fact just as, if not more grindy than the games its competing with. I would say for best in slot its only slightly more grindy than other mmos.
overall, its way more grindy i have never seen anything like the 10,000 candy corn for crafting materials, or people opening 10000 bags for mini’s Or 7200 silk for an armor peice, or 250 powerful blood for an accessory in an MMO for a long long time.
some come close with certain legendary quest item type things, but this game does the same type of thing for best in slot, seasonal, etc.