Guild Wars 2

^ NPE will be getting changes in Q2 as confirmed by Gaile. Whether it’ll ‘fix’ the issues, remains to be seen. But I think, if you look at the massive feedback thread, they’re aware of the current issues.

Phoebe Ascension.8437:

Traits are something that is very close to ‘you need it’ (is mandatory), however to get them, the grind is tremendously high, especially all of them.

I’ve been trying to shortcut my way into the only other way to get traits (gold + skill points), so far in those few months, i only managed to get 300 skill point scrolls. Your most likely response: ‘WHAT? 300? That’s a hell ot of a lot’. It is. But in the way for unlocking traits its absolutely nothing. It’s barely enough to get one character all the traits (240 if you don’t count the XIII traits). If I imagined, that i didn’t level all character to 8 (and all professions) before the trait update, having to do this trait grind 1-7 times, that would be an extremely big grind. Potentially 1680 skill point scrolls necessary and 350 gold.

You could say, just do normal way then? That is just as much of a grind AND limits your choice a lot in how to get them. Only ONE CHOICE then to get them. The other option is like above skill point scrolls, wich luckely, quite some content now gives.

So to stay true to this pilosophy, either traits must be able to be unlocked in a lot more content (even pvp, that can unlock pve traits), wvw, etc, or the skill point requirement must be lowered a hell of a lot, (to something like 50-100 per profession to get all but the XIII traits).

I think you nailed it

But I also think that trait revamp was a premise of masteries. So I may be too optimistic but I really think that all challenges required for traits right now will count toward masteries and we will spend some mastery points into trait. Meaning we won’t be force on one particular challenge for one particular trait.

But again I may be too optimistic, this is only my speculation from how Colin described the mastery system and the post made by Gaile about the fact we will hear about how this thing will be revamped soon.

Phoebe Ascension.8437:

Traits are something that is very close to ‘you need it’ (is mandatory), however to get them, the grind is tremendously high, especially all of them.

I’ve been trying to shortcut my way into the only other way to get traits (gold + skill points), so far in those few months, i only managed to get 300 skill point scrolls. Your most likely response: ‘WHAT? 300? That’s a hell ot of a lot’. It is. But in the way for unlocking traits its absolutely nothing. It’s barely enough to get one character all the traits (240 if you don’t count the XIII traits). If I imagined, that i didn’t level all character to 8 (and all professions) before the trait update, having to do this trait grind 1-7 times, that would be an extremely big grind. Potentially 1680 skill point scrolls necessary and 350 gold.

You could say, just do normal way then? That is just as much of a grind AND limits your choice a lot in how to get them. Only ONE CHOICE then to get them. The other option is like above skill point scrolls, wich luckely, quite some content now gives.

So to stay true to this pilosophy, either traits must be able to be unlocked in a lot more content (even pvp, that can unlock pve traits), wvw, etc, or the skill point requirement must be lowered a hell of a lot, (to something like 50-100 per profession to get all but the XIII traits).

But you do not do the events over and over to get these traits so… not even sure how a “grind” could be doing an event ONCE for a reward.

Phoebe Ascension.8437:

Traits are something that is very close to ‘you need it’ (is mandatory), however to get them, the grind is tremendously high, especially all of them.

I’ve been trying to shortcut my way into the only other way to get traits (gold + skill points), so far in those few months, i only managed to get 300 skill point scrolls. Your most likely response: ‘WHAT? 300? That’s a hell ot of a lot’. It is. But in the way for unlocking traits its absolutely nothing. It’s barely enough to get one character all the traits (240 if you don’t count the XIII traits). If I imagined, that i didn’t level all character to 8 (and all professions) before the trait update, having to do this trait grind 1-7 times, that would be an extremely big grind. Potentially 1680 skill point scrolls necessary and 350 gold.

You could say, just do normal way then? That is just as much of a grind AND limits your choice a lot in how to get them. Only ONE CHOICE then to get them. The other option is like above skill point scrolls, wich luckely, quite some content now gives.

So to stay true to this pilosophy, either traits must be able to be unlocked in a lot more content (even pvp, that can unlock pve traits), wvw, etc, or the skill point requirement must be lowered a hell of a lot, (to something like 50-100 per profession to get all but the XIII traits).

Responding to this:

I don’t find traits to be grindy. I see where you’re coming from, however.

As someone who hated just about everything the NPE I decided I would level a duplicate alt, from the bottom up. I retain my dislike of almost all aspects of the NPE. Traits, however, do not seem grindy. To those people who don’t use Tomes of Knowledge, and use Traits as a set of goals to work toward as they level, you’re killing two moas with one stone.

Sure, if you’re not interested in PvE, or don’t want to level up in that environment, you might well have a tough time acquiring all of them, but the Trait changes seemed to be a way to get players into the less-popular content in the open world – all those champions that never got killed etc. I think it succeeded in that, and I like that is feels a little like capturing an elite skill “back in the day”.

I’m not saying that trait acquisition isn’t grindy, for you, as you clearly have a different interpretation of grind to me, but just thought I’d put out a different viewpoint for you to consider. I’m also not saying that I had time to gather all the traits whilst levelling (Personal story and story mode dungeons increased my level substantially) – there were a few stragglers left at L80, but far less daunting to acquire by that point, or expensive to pay for, or even just write off since not all traits are worth having “asap”.

butch.8136:

^ NPE will be getting changes in Q2 as confirmed by Gaile. Whether it’ll ‘fix’ the issues, remains to be seen. But I think, if you look at the massive feedback thread, they’re aware of the current issues.

The only “fix” it needs is to be fully reverted back.

If the Personal Story is included in the fixing, however, I really hope they can un-butcher the story. Like when Sayeh al’Rajihd greets you in The Source of Orr, like she’d met you in Temple of the Forgotten God….when….that is in fact the next story.

Ugh. NPE.

Jski.6180:

Phoebe Ascension.8437:

Traits are something that is very close to ‘you need it’ (is mandatory), however to get them, the grind is tremendously high, especially all of them.

I’ve been trying to shortcut my way into the only other way to get traits (gold + skill points), so far in those few months, i only managed to get 300 skill point scrolls. Your most likely response: ‘WHAT? 300? That’s a hell ot of a lot’. It is. But in the way for unlocking traits its absolutely nothing. It’s barely enough to get one character all the traits (240 if you don’t count the XIII traits). If I imagined, that i didn’t level all character to 8 (and all professions) before the trait update, having to do this trait grind 1-7 times, that would be an extremely big grind. Potentially 1680 skill point scrolls necessary and 350 gold.

You could say, just do normal way then? That is just as much of a grind AND limits your choice a lot in how to get them. Only ONE CHOICE then to get them. The other option is like above skill point scrolls, wich luckely, quite some content now gives.

So to stay true to this pilosophy, either traits must be able to be unlocked in a lot more content (even pvp, that can unlock pve traits), wvw, etc, or the skill point requirement must be lowered a hell of a lot, (to something like 50-100 per profession to get all but the XIII traits).

But you do not do the events over and over to get these traits so… not even sure how a “grind” could be doing an event ONCE for a reward.

Start making alts. You’ll have to do it all over again for each and every one.

Every…single…time.

Hmmm Colin removed his second response about him going to write an answer on the trait feedback thread. :p

ColinJohanson.2394:

Hey folks,

I just want to take a second to address this topic, because it’s something we state as one of our key philosophies – but don’t often clarify exactly what we mean we say it. And because everyone and their mother has their own unique interpretation of what grind can mean, it’s very simple for this to feel like we’re not following our own guidelines when we build and implement content.

When our company president said we have an anti-grind philosophy way back before Gw2 shipped, and when it has been repeatedly reinforced since then, our statement is simply: “We don’t think you should need to grind to get the best gear and stats in Guild Wars 2”.

So what exactly does that mean:

- The best gear/stats: This means to have statistically the best abilities in the game, you shouldn’t need to, by our definition of the word, grind. This goes for leveling and getting top gear (by our definition that’s ascended gear, legendary being an optional extra thing you can do, but don’t need to do.)

- Grind: To us, grind means being required to do the same boring activity over and over again. In particular, the biggest reference we’re talking about here in traditional MMO’s is having to kill the same creatures over and over again to farm for levels or gear. In Gw2, you can gain exp and levels from a massive variety of game play, game modes, and content types. Same goes for the ability to acquire the gear to build up your characters. Similarly, ascended mats can be acquired from a wide variety of content types and game modes to allow you choice and options so you don’t need to grind to complete those goals. Our new mastery system continues to this promise as well, which we’ll go into more detail on soon.

There are certainly optional activities in the game players can embark on that I think we’d openly accept fall into the category of our definition of more “grindy”. Earning certain unique skins, and in particular some titles absolutely qualify as things we’d put on this list. Legendary weapons have components to them that fall into this category, though we’ll be doing work in HOT to make this much less the case. We feel these are optional choices players don’t need to do, but can if they want, and because they are optional are acceptable within our statement that “Gw2 doesn’t make you grind to have the best gear/stats”. That doesn’t mean we can’t make those activities more fun as well, but when we say “no grind philosophy” we’re not including optional things you can do, but don’t need to do, in our definition.

Hope that helps a bit, that’s our philosophy and definition we’re going by when we make those statements. They may not align to your definition of grind, and that’s ok – we’re fine with that! It’s just important you know what we mean when we make that statement so you can make decisions about how you view Gw2 and judge us by our actions/words.

Thanks again for being so passionate about this topic and the game which ever side of the discussion you fall on. It’s something incredibly important to modern MMO’s and gamers in general, and we truly appreciate the dialogue you all are having on topics like this. It’s what makes better games for all of us.

I bolded the most obvious statement.

Now to sit back and enjoy my lunch and watch the thread explode with a smile on my face. Now as Hand Flow would say. “Nailed It!”

ColinJohanson.2394:

- The best gear/stats: This means to have statistically the best abilities in the game, you shouldn’t need to, by our definition of the word, grind. This goes for leveling and getting top gear (by our definition that’s ascended gear, legendary being an optional extra thing you can do, but don’t need to do.)

- Grind: To us, grind means being required to do the same boring activity over and over again. In particular, the biggest reference we’re talking about here in traditional MMO’s is having to kill the same creatures over and over again to farm for levels or gear. In Gw2, you can gain exp and levels from a massive variety of game play, game modes, and content types. Same goes for the ability to acquire the gear to build up your characters. Similarly, ascended mats can be acquired from a wide variety of content types and game modes to allow you choice and options so you don’t need to grind to complete those goals. Our new mastery system continues to this promise as well, which we’ll go into more detail on soon.

So because there is more than one option to earn it, the task no longer becomes “grindy”? Not buying it. Sounds a lot like North Korea saying they don’t control citizens lives because the give them more than one option for an authorized haircut. Even with multiple methods, acquiring ascended gear becomes a giant slog through activities that by the time you end up earning all the materials to craft your gear, you often lose the interest to keep playing. Expecting to earn all the materials without gold makes the quest ridiculously grindy, which causes players to choose less grindy paths by farming gold to purchase them. Even then, the amount of gold required leaves all but the most devoted players behind. Of course, as intended by your corporate overlords, open wallet, insert cash is the quickest method to obtain both a legendary, and the materials for ascended.

No matter what current method chosen, it is still light years away from your very comment that by level 80, players should have the best statistical loot in the game. Which you just defined as ascended. But I guess you aren’t technically lying if the desired effect is for the player to open their wallet more.

naiasonod.9265:

Jski.6180:

Phoebe Ascension.8437:

Traits are something that is very close to ‘you need it’ (is mandatory), however to get them, the grind is tremendously high, especially all of them.

I’ve been trying to shortcut my way into the only other way to get traits (gold + skill points), so far in those few months, i only managed to get 300 skill point scrolls. Your most likely response: ‘WHAT? 300? That’s a hell ot of a lot’. It is. But in the way for unlocking traits its absolutely nothing. It’s barely enough to get one character all the traits (240 if you don’t count the XIII traits). If I imagined, that i didn’t level all character to 8 (and all professions) before the trait update, having to do this trait grind 1-7 times, that would be an extremely big grind. Potentially 1680 skill point scrolls necessary and 350 gold.

You could say, just do normal way then? That is just as much of a grind AND limits your choice a lot in how to get them. Only ONE CHOICE then to get them. The other option is like above skill point scrolls, wich luckely, quite some content now gives.

So to stay true to this pilosophy, either traits must be able to be unlocked in a lot more content (even pvp, that can unlock pve traits), wvw, etc, or the skill point requirement must be lowered a hell of a lot, (to something like 50-100 per profession to get all but the XIII traits).

But you do not do the events over and over to get these traits so… not even sure how a “grind” could be doing an event ONCE for a reward.

Start making alts. You’ll have to do it all over again for each and every one.

Every…single…time.

And you have to level it up again and do the first part of the ps again you have to do a lot of things again BUT your doing it as a new class and its YOUR chose to do this and not required by the game to make an alt so.. YOUR making YOUR self grind from YOUR point of view. (Your point of view) the fact that the alt is not level 80 with all its gear all the quest done the full map completed is a grind.

Hell its like saying i keep getting sick because i am not able to eat something then complain that your getting sick because you keep eating it and demand that the something should changes not your own eating habits.

naiasonod.9265:

Start making alts. You’ll have to do it all over again for each and every one.

Every…single…time.

I did this. I use trait unlocks as goals whilst levelling.

Problem solved.

Jski.6180:

naiasonod.9265:

Jski.6180:

Phoebe Ascension.8437:

Traits are something that is very close to ‘you need it’ (is mandatory), however to get them, the grind is tremendously high, especially all of them.

I’ve been trying to shortcut my way into the only other way to get traits (gold + skill points), so far in those few months, i only managed to get 300 skill point scrolls. Your most likely response: ‘WHAT? 300? That’s a hell ot of a lot’. It is. But in the way for unlocking traits its absolutely nothing. It’s barely enough to get one character all the traits (240 if you don’t count the XIII traits). If I imagined, that i didn’t level all character to 8 (and all professions) before the trait update, having to do this trait grind 1-7 times, that would be an extremely big grind. Potentially 1680 skill point scrolls necessary and 350 gold.

You could say, just do normal way then? That is just as much of a grind AND limits your choice a lot in how to get them. Only ONE CHOICE then to get them. The other option is like above skill point scrolls, wich luckely, quite some content now gives.

So to stay true to this pilosophy, either traits must be able to be unlocked in a lot more content (even pvp, that can unlock pve traits), wvw, etc, or the skill point requirement must be lowered a hell of a lot, (to something like 50-100 per profession to get all but the XIII traits).

But you do not do the events over and over to get these traits so… not even sure how a “grind” could be doing an event ONCE for a reward.

Start making alts. You’ll have to do it all over again for each and every one.

Every…single…time.

And you have to level it up again and do the first part of the ps again you have to do a lot of things again BUT your doing it as a new class and its YOUR chose to do this and not required by the game to make an alt so.. YOUR making YOUR self grind from YOUR point of view. (Your point of view) the fact that the alt is not level 80 with all its gear all the quest done the full map completed is a grind.

Hell its like saying i keep getting sick because i am not able to eat something then complain that your getting sick because you keep eating it and demand that the something should changes not your own eating habits.

I do not have to level a character to 80 to play that character to the fullest of its potential at its given level.

I do have to procure traits to do that at and past level 30. Gear is not a grind to procure at any level. Traits in their present state absolutely are, and they are every bit as vital to a complete build as gear.

In any case, its now irrelevant. Colin has just announced that the current system will be going the way of the dodo eventually.

So, sanity finally wins, and I, for the moment, am pleased.

Phoebe Ascension.8437:

Traits are something that is very close to ‘you need it’ (is mandatory), however to get them, the grind is tremendously high, especially all of them.

I’ve been trying to shortcut my way into the only other way to get traits (gold + skill points), so far in those few months, i only managed to get 300 skill point scrolls. Your most likely response: ‘WHAT? 300? That’s a hell ot of a lot’. It is. But in the way for unlocking traits its absolutely nothing. It’s barely enough to get one character all the traits (240 if you don’t count the XIII traits). If I imagined, that i didn’t level all character to 8 (and all professions) before the trait update, having to do this trait grind 1-7 times, that would be an extremely big grind. Potentially 1680 skill point scrolls necessary and 350 gold.

You could say, just do normal way then? That is just as much of a grind AND limits your choice a lot in how to get them. Only ONE CHOICE then to get them. The other option is like above skill point scrolls, wich luckely, quite some content now gives.

So to stay true to this pilosophy, either traits must be able to be unlocked in a lot more content (even pvp, that can unlock pve traits), wvw, etc, or the skill point requirement must be lowered a hell of a lot, (to something like 50-100 per profession to get all but the XIII traits).

but this is not a thread about their iterative approach! :P

The traits changes feels like they decided to implement a first draft idea rather than something that was thoroughly tested.

ColinJohanson.2394:

Hey folks,

I just want to take a second to address this topic, because it’s something we state as one of our key philosophies – but don’t often clarify exactly what we mean we say it. And because everyone and their mother has their own unique interpretation of what grind can mean, it’s very simple for this to feel like we’re not following our own guidelines when we build and implement content.

When our company president said we have an anti-grind philosophy way back before Gw2 shipped, and when it has been repeatedly reinforced since then, our statement is simply: “We don’t think you should need to grind to get the best gear and stats in Guild Wars 2”.

So what exactly does that mean:

- The best gear/stats: This means to have statistically the best abilities in the game, you shouldn’t need to, by our definition of the word, grind. This goes for leveling and getting top gear (by our definition that’s ascended gear, legendary being an optional extra thing you can do, but don’t need to do.)

- Grind: To us, grind means being required to do the same boring activity over and over again. In particular, the biggest reference we’re talking about here in traditional MMO’s is having to kill the same creatures over and over again to farm for levels or gear. In Gw2, you can gain exp and levels from a massive variety of game play, game modes, and content types. Same goes for the ability to acquire the gear to build up your characters. Similarly, ascended mats can be acquired from a wide variety of content types and game modes to allow you choice and options so you don’t need to grind to complete those goals. Our new mastery system continues to this promise as well, which we’ll go into more detail on soon.

There are certainly optional activities in the game players can embark on that I think we’d openly accept fall into the category of our definition of more “grindy”. Earning certain unique skins, and in particular some titles absolutely qualify as things we’d put on this list. Legendary weapons have components to them that fall into this category, though we’ll be doing work in HOT to make this much less the case. We feel these are optional choices players don’t need to do, but can if they want, and because they are optional are acceptable within our statement that “Gw2 doesn’t make you grind to have the best gear/stats”. That doesn’t mean we can’t make those activities more fun as well, but when we say “no grind philosophy” we’re not including optional things you can do, but don’t need to do, in our definition.

Hope that helps a bit, that’s our philosophy and definition we’re going by when we make those statements. They may not align to your definition of grind, and that’s ok – we’re fine with that! It’s just important you know what we mean when we make that statement so you can make decisions about how you view Gw2 and judge us by our actions/words.

Thanks again for being so passionate about this topic and the game which ever side of the discussion you fall on. It’s something incredibly important to modern MMO’s and gamers in general, and we truly appreciate the dialogue you all are having on topics like this. It’s what makes better games for all of us.

Colin, I luv ya… I really do, and I get what you’re point is here; however, ascended goes against the initial pillars you guys set forth. No matter how you spin it.

We aren’t going to have the best stat gear by the time we’re 80 unless we grind in some way. Yes, you point out that the materials are available a variety of ways, you don’t have to do the exact same thing over and over again, which is great; however the sheer amount you need to do of the assorted things is in itself grind. You’re either doing it all again and again for materials… or for gold. Perhaps if it weren’t so terribly time gated it would “feel” less grindy, but that’s neither here nor there.

The fact remains, that ascended, as it currently stands does not mesh with the pillars you guys originally set forth, and state are still important.

ColinJohanson.2394:

Similarly, ascended mats can be acquired from a wide variety of content types and game modes to allow you choice and options so you don’t need to grind to complete those goals.

Except they’re not. Bloodstone from exotic champ bags. Okay, so you have to take on champs. Easy enough to do in groups but sometimes, a lot of times, you don’t “qualify” for the exotic bag. I’m not talking about standing autocasting your 1 attack but throwing everything and the kitchen sink at it. Champs at boss events are a lot tougher simply due to the number of players attacking if the qualifier is some % of damage done to indicate participation.

That said most players have 30 stacks of bloodstone. Dragonite and Empyreal drop easiest from Dungeons, Fractals or PvP. If you don’t do those because you don’t like those types of play, you are stuck getting a few here and there while PvPers or Dungeon runners (including Fractals) get them by the truck load.

You may not think it’s grinding, but when the most direct way to get the materials for ascended mats is doing activities you aren’t thrilled about over and over again, I think most people would consider that grinding.

Just another PoV to consider.

ColinJohanson.2394:

And now the post is up in the trait thread specifically to answer that point specifically. I’ll say by our definition of grind because you can purchase traits for skill points and gold which you can earn from different types of content and game modes OR play the content, this would not be considered a "grindy" system by our definition - but that doesn’t mean it’s right for Gw2’s future.

I wish you provided a similar option for the Ascended gear grind we have today. To get Ascended gear on a character (be that a main, an alt, or every single time you wish to change a spec of a character and therefore require entirely new gear), you currently HAVE to grind for gold or camp the trade post (or buy gold with gems at a terrible conversion rate), and you HAVE to put up with the grindy-by-nature crafting system.

You can NOT realistically attain Ascended gear by playing the game; There is no option to buy them with Karma, Badges of Honor, or dungeon tokens, the so-called fun alternatives. And then you also got the time-gated laurels. Together these systems really force grind upon players and also make them feel locked into a specific character and spec.

Will this be resolved in HoT?

naiasonod.9265:

Jski.6180:

naiasonod.9265:

Jski.6180:

Phoebe Ascension.8437:

Traits are something that is very close to ‘you need it’ (is mandatory), however to get them, the grind is tremendously high, especially all of them.

I’ve been trying to shortcut my way into the only other way to get traits (gold + skill points), so far in those few months, i only managed to get 300 skill point scrolls. Your most likely response: ‘WHAT? 300? That’s a hell ot of a lot’. It is. But in the way for unlocking traits its absolutely nothing. It’s barely enough to get one character all the traits (240 if you don’t count the XIII traits). If I imagined, that i didn’t level all character to 8 (and all professions) before the trait update, having to do this trait grind 1-7 times, that would be an extremely big grind. Potentially 1680 skill point scrolls necessary and 350 gold.

You could say, just do normal way then? That is just as much of a grind AND limits your choice a lot in how to get them. Only ONE CHOICE then to get them. The other option is like above skill point scrolls, wich luckely, quite some content now gives.

So to stay true to this pilosophy, either traits must be able to be unlocked in a lot more content (even pvp, that can unlock pve traits), wvw, etc, or the skill point requirement must be lowered a hell of a lot, (to something like 50-100 per profession to get all but the XIII traits).

But you do not do the events over and over to get these traits so… not even sure how a “grind” could be doing an event ONCE for a reward.

Start making alts. You’ll have to do it all over again for each and every one.

Every…single…time.

And you have to level it up again and do the first part of the ps again you have to do a lot of things again BUT your doing it as a new class and its YOUR chose to do this and not required by the game to make an alt so.. YOUR making YOUR self grind from YOUR point of view. (Your point of view) the fact that the alt is not level 80 with all its gear all the quest done the full map completed is a grind.

Hell its like saying i keep getting sick because i am not able to eat something then complain that your getting sick because you keep eating it and demand that the something should changes not your own eating habits.

I do not have to level a character to 80 to play that character to the fullest of its potential at its given level.

I do have to procure traits to do that. Gear is not a grind to procure at any level. Traits in their present state absolutely are, and they are every bit as vital to a complete build as gear.

In any case, its now irrelevant. Colin has just announced that the current system will be going the way of the dodo eventually.

So, sanity finally wins, and I, for the moment, am pleased.

BUT YOU WILL that the point when you have such a low tolerances for doing any thing then you ask for things to become so easy that there simply is no point in doing any thing because its already done for you. That type of game tends to be dead with in a month because there is nothing else to do.

Doing something once is not a grind thinking your going to not do things over when you level an alt is self-denial.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Perhaps if it weren’t so terribly time gated it would “feel” less grindy, but that’s neither here nor there.

Isn’t a time gate anti-grind? :p It forces you to wait, which I agree isn’t too fun but I can understand the reasoning behind it. However it aint grindy in itself.

butch.8136:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Perhaps if it weren’t so terribly time gated it would “feel” less grindy, but that’s neither here nor there.

Isn’t a time gate anti-grind? :p It forces you to wait, which I agree isn’t too fun but I can understand the reasoning behind it. However it aint grindy in itself.

Time gate is supposedly for market protection and to get you to log in everyday (player retention). If it wasn’t timegated, market would have gone bonkers and taken even longer to settle than it did with the timegate.

“Grinding” is perception. You can get a majority of the materials you need for ascended armor, just by going through each of the maps on your toons or even doing the LS content. Yes, if you focus on that one goal, without play the game for fun, then it is a grind, but still…i would not consider this a grind.

Now, Legendaries, with their 250-of-each-T6-mat-that rarely-rarely-drops, i completely agree with you. That grind just blows. But again, its not necessary, so if i don’t like the requirements, i don’t have to do the grind for it. Easy as that.

Behellagh.1468:

ColinJohanson.2394:

Similarly, ascended mats can be acquired from a wide variety of content types and game modes to allow you choice and options so you don’t need to grind to complete those goals.

Except they’re not. Bloodstone from exotic champ bags. Okay, so you have to take on champs. Easy enough to do in groups but sometimes, a lot of times, you don’t “qualify” for the exotic bag. I’m not talking about standing autocasting your 1 attack but throwing everything and the kitchen sink at it. Champs at boss events are a lot tougher simply due to the number of players attacking if the qualifier is some % of damage done to indicate participation.

That said most players have 30 stacks of bloodstone. Dragonite and Empyreal drop easiest from Dungeons, Fractals or PvP. If you don’t do either because you don’t like those types of play, you are stuck getting a few here and there while PvPers or Dungeon runners (including Fractals) get them by the truck load.

You may not think it’s grinding, but when the most direct way to get the materials for ascended mats is doing activities you aren’t thrilled about over and over again, I think most people would consider that grinding.

Just another PoV to consider.

You get plenty of dragonite from world bosses and silverwastes chest for example. Empyreal drops in champ bags, jumping puzzles and iirc Eotm is also a good source of it.

Vayne.8563:

Indeed. By never using the words “grind” and “level” close to each other, ArenaNet has made it clear that they have never considered “grind” to mean only level grinding. In fact, their statements about not wanting people to grind show how they see grind as something far more encompassing.

If people refuse to accept that, it’s their own issue

English much? By using them close together they imply that that is what I’m talking about.

See Vayne? It was never about level grind only. That definition of grind isn’t really used anywhere at all.

Jski.6180:

naiasonod.9265:

Jski.6180:

naiasonod.9265:

Jski.6180:

Phoebe Ascension.8437:

Traits are something that is very close to ‘you need it’ (is mandatory), however to get them, the grind is tremendously high, especially all of them.

I’ve been trying to shortcut my way into the only other way to get traits (gold + skill points), so far in those few months, i only managed to get 300 skill point scrolls. Your most likely response: ‘WHAT? 300? That’s a hell ot of a lot’. It is. But in the way for unlocking traits its absolutely nothing. It’s barely enough to get one character all the traits (240 if you don’t count the XIII traits). If I imagined, that i didn’t level all character to 8 (and all professions) before the trait update, having to do this trait grind 1-7 times, that would be an extremely big grind. Potentially 1680 skill point scrolls necessary and 350 gold.

You could say, just do normal way then? That is just as much of a grind AND limits your choice a lot in how to get them. Only ONE CHOICE then to get them. The other option is like above skill point scrolls, wich luckely, quite some content now gives.

So to stay true to this pilosophy, either traits must be able to be unlocked in a lot more content (even pvp, that can unlock pve traits), wvw, etc, or the skill point requirement must be lowered a hell of a lot, (to something like 50-100 per profession to get all but the XIII traits).

But you do not do the events over and over to get these traits so… not even sure how a “grind” could be doing an event ONCE for a reward.

Start making alts. You’ll have to do it all over again for each and every one.

Every…single…time.

And you have to level it up again and do the first part of the ps again you have to do a lot of things again BUT your doing it as a new class and its YOUR chose to do this and not required by the game to make an alt so.. YOUR making YOUR self grind from YOUR point of view. (Your point of view) the fact that the alt is not level 80 with all its gear all the quest done the full map completed is a grind.

Hell its like saying i keep getting sick because i am not able to eat something then complain that your getting sick because you keep eating it and demand that the something should changes not your own eating habits.

I do not have to level a character to 80 to play that character to the fullest of its potential at its given level.

I do have to procure traits to do that. Gear is not a grind to procure at any level. Traits in their present state absolutely are, and they are every bit as vital to a complete build as gear.

In any case, its now irrelevant. Colin has just announced that the current system will be going the way of the dodo eventually.

So, sanity finally wins, and I, for the moment, am pleased.

BUT YOU WILL that the point when you have such a low tolerances for doing any thing then you ask for things to become so easy that there simply is no point in doing any thing because its already done for you. That type of game tends to be dead with in a month because there is nothing else to do.

Doing something once is not a grind thinking your going to not do things over when you level an alt is self-denial.

Well, now I know that the current system isn’t what’s intended for the future, so…cheers, and sod off. I don’t really care what you do or don’t think a grind is.

EgonVenkman.1907:

butch.8136:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Perhaps if it weren’t so terribly time gated it would “feel” less grindy, but that’s neither here nor there.

Isn’t a time gate anti-grind? :p It forces you to wait, which I agree isn’t too fun but I can understand the reasoning behind it. However it aint grindy in itself.

Time gate is supposedly for market protection and to get you to log in everyday (player retention). If it wasn’t timegated, market would have gone bonkers and taken even longer to settle than it did with the timegate.

Only to a point time gated on items you can sell is for market protection most of the time gate items are more non-sellable in GW2. Things like lures base crafting blueprints.

naiasonod.9265:

Well, now I know that the current system isn’t what’s intended for the future, so…cheers, and sod off. I don’t really care what you do or don’t think a grind is.

Your point of view on the current system being grindly because your leveling an alt is unrealistic. The very ideal that your “RELEVELING” an alt is doing something over there by a grind in your view. Unless you intend them to remove levels from the game or even any of item variation that is going to still be a grind in your view. I guess they could make it an offline game were every thing is done for you and you never need to do any thing but that just makes the game into a brick that dose nothing and has no real use.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

With no grind, they mean no mandatory grind. There is no gear threadmill.
You don’t have to grind in order to keep up. All the grind in this game is just for cosmetics. Sure there is ascended, but that’s only like 5% better than exotic so you don’t really need it.

Except, Ascended involves stats. So no, you are wrong. There is a gear threadmill, not all the grind in this game is just for cosmetics. Colin’s no grind philosophy is BS.

Behellagh.1468:

ColinJohanson.2394:

Similarly, ascended mats can be acquired from a wide variety of content types and game modes to allow you choice and options so you don’t need to grind to complete those goals.

Except they’re not. Bloodstone from exotic champ bags. Okay, so you have to take on champs. Easy enough to do in groups but sometimes, a lot of times, you don’t “qualify” for the exotic bag. I’m not talking about standing autocasting your 1 attack but throwing everything and the kitchen sink at it. Champs at boss events are a lot tougher simply due to the number of players attacking if the qualifier is some % of damage done to indicate participation.

That said most players have 30 stacks of bloodstone. Dragonite and Empyreal drop easiest from Dungeons, Fractals or PvP. If you don’t do those because you don’t like those types of play, you are stuck getting a few here and there while PvPers or Dungeon runners (including Fractals) get them by the truck load.

You may not think it’s grinding, but when the most direct way to get the materials for ascended mats is doing activities you aren’t thrilled about over and over again, I think most people would consider that grinding.

Just another PoV to consider.

Uhhh, those of us who farm Silverwastes have stacks upon stacks of ascended stuff we can give up. I’ve already hit 250 bars of each.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

With no grind, they mean no mandatory grind. There is no gear threadmill.
You don’t have to grind in order to keep up. All the grind in this game is just for cosmetics. Sure there is ascended, but that’s only like 5% better than exotic so you don’t really need it.

It’s really easy to claim there is no “mandatory” grind when your game doesn’t even have mandatory endgame. If grinding isn’t the endgame in GW2, then what do they expect players to do? Hearts on alts? They don’t support any meaningful content that doesn’t require a grind.

Just look at almost every piece of open world content. Everything is about implementing new ways to farm so you can get shiny gold to buy more shinies, or getting X psuedo-currency to buy other shinies.

Larynx.2453:

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

With no grind, they mean no mandatory grind. There is no gear threadmill.
You don’t have to grind in order to keep up. All the grind in this game is just for cosmetics. Sure there is ascended, but that’s only like 5% better than exotic so you don’t really need it.

It’s really easy to claim there is no “mandatory” grind when your game doesn’t even have mandatory endgame. If grinding isn’t the endgame in GW2, then what do they expect players to do? Hearts on alts? They don’t support any meaningful content that doesn’t require a grind.

Alts realty do not play well for your side of the argument because your choosing to re-level something there by redoing something there by asking to “regrind” (in your point of view). So every time you level up an alt your going to grind (from your point of view.)

Added note “endgame” for most mmorpg is raiding for gear you tend not to get all the gear you want the first time so you MUST redo the raid there by asking for a type of grind for your end game.

ColinJohanson.2394:

Hey folks,

~ Snap for space.

Thanks again for being so passionate about this topic and the game which ever side of the discussion you fall on. It’s something incredibly important to modern MMO’s and gamers in general, and we truly appreciate the dialogue you all are having on topics like this. It’s what makes better games for all of us.

Thanks for your statement. It’s very good to hear your / Anet’s opinion about that.

For my opinion about grind it does not change a lot, I even said that before in this topic (does not matter what Anet means with grind) but still it’s good to know what you consider grind or better what type of grind you try to prevent.

About the ‘need’ part I still say the same, there is a never a need, it’s a game. Many people say there is that need for grind in a game like WoW but I for once never fled that need, I was just happy hunting down cosmetics. So if I could play it would that grind it looks like there is no real ‘need’ for it.

What brings me to the point why I still find it grindy in GW2 (you also confirm in your post that cosmetics hunt is indeed grindy). You may say ’it’s optinal’, sure but that does not change that it’s the type of content I would usually like to do and so also would like to do in GW2 wasn’t it that it’s such a grind here.

Now I get it, you need to make money so sell these things in the cash-shop and thats mainly how they become a grind (might also be the reason why Anet makes farming for items nearly impossible to increase the value of gold?) but there is also no fun for me in buying them. Spending money on the game is fine (I did buy the CE edition of the game) but buying items in the game is not playing the game for me. I rather buy more expansions and have the ability to hunt these items down in the world instead of having the option to buy or grind those items and don’t have the need to buy an expansion every year.

I also hope you and your team do think about the possibility that many people who do like that cosmetics hunts, are very likely being drawn to this game because it’s so cosmetic based and then get scared off because going for those items is such a grind. And they will also not be supporting the game financially once they left. They might come back for HoT but if they get disappointed about this again they might not come back after that.

Another example of a way what is now grind could be game-play are the instruments. I, and many people would probably love to have a musicians craft in stead of grinding (or buying) instruments. We would love to hunt cosmetics like skins, mini’s, glider-skins and so on all over the world (hardest content rewarding the best looking skins). But that end-game simply does not exist or only in the form of a grind (and then mainly grinding gold, you need to much to earn it along the way while playing, besides hunting down is playing the game for many people.).

So I hope you guys will find a good way of making that more fun as you state. The only way I would see that being possible is by financing the game more based on expansions then those cosmetic items, but if you find other ways I’m happy as well.

Anyway, I do hope this form of end-game will come to the game in a less grindy, more fun way and I assure you that it will be something that can keep a big group of players playing, a group that now might not be playing (anymore).

Again, thanks for your comment.

ColinJohanson.2394:

Yeah to be clear on that one, as we’ve said before: we made that statement before the game launched, ultimately realized we didn’t think it was the right decision for Gw2 – and changed our mind. I fully own making this statement, the day I said it was our plan – our lead designer decided it was the wrong direction for the game after we stated it, and we changed direction.

Colin, now that HoT is out in the open, could we get some news on some of the most notorious designers from which we have heard next to nothing? What have Eric Flannum, Linsey Murdock, John Stumme and the other designers we heard a lot about been up to?

People who think this game is grindy are part of the now-now-now-me-me-me generation.

Ridiculous. I’d die to see them play Everquest.

Simplification of why GW2 is grindy.

10% non-optional content
90% optional content

I may not be accurate on my numbers but this is how the game feels. Having the big chunk of the content behind a grindy “optional” game play is not fun at all. Just look at the Silverwaste, the only non-optional can be completed in around 15-30 minutes. The large part of the content is grinding for something that is not even necessary.

It would be nice if the large part of the content are non-optional, story driven, that I can play through for hours on end. Not because it’s difficult or complicated, but because of its depth. For instance, Glint’s Lair could have been even more larger than it is. The story of the First Born was short and feels rushed.

Instead, what we received is short episode that costs 200 gems (when missed) and a whole lot of grinding for something that is “optional”.

Blaeys.3102:

Phoebe Ascension.8437:

Traits are something that is very close to ‘you need it’ (is mandatory), however to get them, the grind is tremendously high, especially all of them.

I’ve been trying to shortcut my way into the only other way to get traits (gold + skill points), so far in those few months, i only managed to get 300 skill point scrolls. Your most likely response: ‘WHAT? 300? That’s a hell ot of a lot’. It is. But in the way for unlocking traits its absolutely nothing. It’s barely enough to get one character all the traits (240 if you don’t count the XIII traits). If I imagined, that i didn’t level all character to 8 (and all professions) before the trait update, having to do this trait grind 1-7 times, that would be an extremely big grind. Potentially 1680 skill point scrolls necessary and 350 gold.

You could say, just do normal way then? That is just as much of a grind AND limits your choice a lot in how to get them. Only ONE CHOICE then to get them. The other option is like above skill point scrolls, wich luckely, quite some content now gives.

So to stay true to this pilosophy, either traits must be able to be unlocked in a lot more content (even pvp, that can unlock pve traits), wvw, etc, or the skill point requirement must be lowered a hell of a lot, (to something like 50-100 per profession to get all but the XIII traits).

How is unlocking a trait grindy by the definition provided? Each trait is associated with a different event (in many cases different game modes) – so, by the definition set, this is the opposite (and you can always just buy them for a minimal cost).

I think I have to agree with this one. I did not do any real leveling after they added / changed this but what I know of it there is specific content you need to do (complete a dungeon, do a JP, kill a boss) that will reward you a specific trait.

Thats correct right?

So that is then not really a grind is it. In fact I think it is positive as it sends you out in the world (an element that we did not really have, I mean usually quest do that or the cosmetic hunts (or crafts) but in GW2 thats not the case). Now if you need to kill 10000 enemies to unlock a trait it is something else but needing to complete one dungeon seems fine.

You want a specific traint, do that specific content and done. Could be improved by making the unlock account bound but thats about it. You can also unlock it with gold but there you can really talk about an optional grind.

Stark.1350:

People who think this game is grindy are part of the now-now-now-me-me-me generation.

Ridiculous. I’d die to see them play Everquest.

Your rosy-tinted nostalgia-lenses are showing.

If it wasn’t for damask then ascended gear wouldn’t even be a grind. ALL the other mats for ascended gear are so easy to get that most of them are worthless. Most of them in fact sell for below crafting cost.

If damask was twice as easy to get as it is now then I think many people could have ascended armor by the time they hit 80.

Blaeys.3102:

Phoebe Ascension.8437:

Traits are something that is very close to ‘you need it’ (is mandatory), however to get them, the grind is tremendously high, especially all of them.

I’ve been trying to shortcut my way into the only other way to get traits (gold + skill points), so far in those few months, i only managed to get 300 skill point scrolls. Your most likely response: ‘WHAT? 300? That’s a hell ot of a lot’. It is. But in the way for unlocking traits its absolutely nothing. It’s barely enough to get one character all the traits (240 if you don’t count the XIII traits). If I imagined, that i didn’t level all character to 8 (and all professions) before the trait update, having to do this trait grind 1-7 times, that would be an extremely big grind. Potentially 1680 skill point scrolls necessary and 350 gold.

You could say, just do normal way then? That is just as much of a grind AND limits your choice a lot in how to get them. Only ONE CHOICE then to get them. The other option is like above skill point scrolls, wich luckely, quite some content now gives.

So to stay true to this pilosophy, either traits must be able to be unlocked in a lot more content (even pvp, that can unlock pve traits), wvw, etc, or the skill point requirement must be lowered a hell of a lot, (to something like 50-100 per profession to get all but the XIII traits).

How is unlocking a trait grindy by the definition provided? Each trait is associated with a different event (in many cases different game modes) – so, by the definition set, this is the opposite (and you can always just buy them for a minimal cost).

I think I have to agree with this one. I did not do any real leveling after they added / changed this but what I know of it there is specific content you need to do (complete a dungeon, do a JP, kill a boss) that will reward you a specific trait.

Thats correct right?

So that is then not really a grind is it. In fact I think it is positive as it sends you out in the world (an element that we did not really have, I mean usually quest do that or the cosmetic hunts (or crafts) but in GW2 thats not the case). Now if you need to kill 10000 enemies to unlock a trait it is something else but needing to complete one dungeon seems fine.

You want a specific traint, do that specific content and done. Could be improved by making the unlock account bound but thats about it. You can also unlock it with gold but there you can really talk about an optional grind.

The game has alot more grind, than many people think .
The funny thing about it, most of these grindy things that this game has, could theoretically be solved so easily with just some small quality of life improvements , which would drastically reduce all the grind in this game and in return would at the same moment make this game again much more alt character friendly, like GW2 was once at the release of this game and became then from patch after patch after its release a more and more alt unfriendly game.

World Map Exploration, Traits, Ascended Gear, Crafting Jobs, Special Boss Rewards (Sunless Weapons), Upgrades for Equipment just to name a few things, which could get drastically reduced in their Grind just with a few tiny Quality of Live improvements:

World Map Exploration:Add a NPC, that lets you unlock Maps for their Rewards and % by paying that NPC with Karma and Bloodstone Dust/Empyreal Fragments/ Dragonite Ore Stacks, found in your Guild Hall, once you have at least 1 Character with 100% Map Exploration

Traits: Make them accountbound Unlocks for Karma+ Skill Points/Badges of Honor + Gold

Ascended Gear: Add more ways to get them as rewards, more Collections that reward us with Ascended Chests, give Ascended Chests as reward for specific WvW Ranks, give Ascened Chests as reward for specific Achievement Point Totals, like every 2500 AP there should be an additional Ascended CHest Reward.
Add Ascened Chests as rewards to daily Login Rewards for the last day of the month.
Add a Token System to World Bosses to get their ascened equipment after a while, once you collected enough Monster Hunter Tokens to turn them in at a Monster Hunter Guild NPC in for valuable rewards that you can get only this way.
Add new Ascended Dungeon Armors/Weapons for a much higher cost of Dungeon Tokens. Add some moving around Karma Vendor NPCs, that sell Ascended items for large amounts of Karma. Add Ascended Equipment for large amounts of Badges of Honor
Anet simply has to open up the ways how you can receive Ascended items in this game.
Just from RNG Luck, Crafting and Collections shouldn’t be the only ways how you should be able to obtain guaranteed ascended items.

Crafting Jobs: Same as with Traits. once you master one to 500, it should be unlocked for the account and the Exp Account Bonus should be changed to Craftign Exp Account Bonus + an increased % Chance, that your crafted Items will become “Grandmaster Works”, whichyou will be able to sell at speciafic NPCs all over Tyria that search for such for some really significant great amounts of Gold or special and unique rewards for trading your craftings with them, so that craftign becomes also more rewarding and lesser of a grind plus this % booster should reduce the time gatings for your account by its . Means if you have Craft Master 15 all your time gated craftigns should have 15% lesser time gates, so that you can craft that item quicker again

Special Boss Rewards: = solved with Monster Hunter Tokens

Equipment Upgrades = solved with the implemention of ascended Runes/Sigils, which should turn, once used the exotic versions into account bound unlocks for PvE/WvW too, so that you would be able to switch alot quicker and more conviniently your builds around, without needing to have all those upgrades in your inventory and fearign, that you lose them, if you replace one with an other one, same as it works in PvP craftable via jeweler 500 refining all exotic versions together with Crystalline Ingots and Xunlai Electrum and Dark Matter to the ascended versions!!

Theres still alot space for improvements in this game to drastically reduce the grind inside of it to a normal level.
Oh and anet, please dont forget to fix also finally your horrible grindy WvW Achievements!! Its about time. Do it with HoT.

Stark.1350:

People who think this game is grindy are part of the now-now-now-me-me-me generation.

Ridiculous. I’d die to see them play Everquest.

How so? Those complaining ask for items they like to hunt down (and are now a grind) to be rewarded for fun, challenging game-play.

In fact you can now now now buy your way out of that grind to get that items for me me me. What would likely not be possible in the other way.

So the now now now, me me me generation should love this grind system you can buy your way out of. No need for them to complain.

You complain if you want interesting game-play to get them. What does not really fit now now now, me me me.

ColinJohanson.2394:

EgonVenkman.1907:

No matter what current method chosen, it is still light years away from your very comment that by level 80, players should have the best statistical loot in the game.

Yeah to be clear on that one, as we’ve said before: we made that statement before the game launched, ultimately realized we didn’t think it was the right decision for Gw2 – and changed our mind. I fully own making this statement, the day I said it was our plan – our lead designer decided it was the wrong direction for the game after we stated it, and we changed direction.

Sometimes plans will change, I can assure you it’s never our intention to intentionally mislead/trick anyone, that’s simply the nature of development: from time to time things we say at one point later have to change.

While I personally disagree with that general choice / change of plans, I’ll go with it.

Still, can we please do something about how painful ascended acquisition is? Being account bound is great…once you can finally get to the point of actually having it. Maybe if the slope just wasn’t quite so kitten steep maybe?

ColinJohanson.2394:

Yeah to be clear on that one, as we’ve said before: we made that statement before the game launched, ultimately realized we didn’t think it was the right decision for Gw2 – and changed our mind. I fully own making this statement, the day I said it was our plan – our lead designer decided it was the wrong direction for the game after we stated it, and we changed direction.

You realized the wrong thing, then. Ascended and its grind is easily one of the worst things you guys ever introduced to this game. Nothing about having to grind and slog around for stats is fun, Colin. Nothing.

naiasonod.9265:

Your rosy-tinted nostalgia-lenses are showing.

It’s kinda the opposite, no?
He’s talking about how much worse everything used to be.

Orpheal.8263:

snip

100000000000% agree with this post.

On the topic: I have zero issue with cosmetics being grindy what I have a issue with are stats and function being grindy. if they made ascended gear have stat swapping like legendarys and made ascended gear actually drop more often I would have no issues with ascended gear and legendarys but they have yet to do that.

Orpheal.8263:

The game has alot more grind, than many people think .

Other than ascended gear, name one other thing that is a grind in this game. Colin even gave their definition of what grind is to them. So by his definition (as everyone is just ignoring it and submitting their own), name one other.

Carighan.6758:

naiasonod.9265:

Your rosy-tinted nostalgia-lenses are showing.

It’s kinda the opposite, no?
He’s talking about how much worse everything used to be.

And the starving kids in Africa doesn’t make my poorly cooked dish any better. I’m still going to send it back to the kitchen for them to redo it. Anet claimed they wanted to make a non-traditional MMO, which is what most of the playerbase wanted pre-launch. Over-time, for profit and/or player retention, they continue adding the same traditional mmo features back into the game, simply re-branding them with different terminology. If I want the traditional mmo experience, there are games that can deliver that far better than Guild Wars 2. It can’t compete and win by copying the refined tactics of that industry. They will just continue to alienate and aggrivate both camps of players.

ColinJohanson.2394:

EgonVenkman.1907:

No matter what current method chosen, it is still light years away from your very comment that by level 80, players should have the best statistical loot in the game.

Yeah to be clear on that one, as we’ve said before: we made that statement before the game launched, ultimately realized we didn’t think it was the right decision for Gw2 – and changed our mind. I fully own making this statement, the day I said it was our plan – our lead designer decided it was the wrong direction for the game after we stated it, and we changed direction.

Sometimes plans will change, I can assure you it’s never our intention to intentionally mislead/trick anyone, that’s simply the nature of development: from time to time things we say at one point later have to change.

Hi Colin,

while i’m not always happy with all of the design decisions, i just wanted to say that this comment meant a lot for me! Huge props to you for coming forward and make a clear statement and flat out say when your vision for the game changes.

You can’t always make everybody happy with everything you do but it helps a lot when you’re this open about it. I know about your policy of not releasing a lot of information but i think players would rather know about stuff they might not be happy with instead of being left completely in the dark.

As an example: fractals. No mention of new fractals or anything in that regard during the PAX show and that’s completely understandable as it wasn’t the focus of HoT, but after months and months of people complaining about rewards and acquisition of fractal skins over in the dungeon forums, we’ve had zero red posts on that matter.

Now where the frustration comes in is when you don’t say anything. If you just came out and flat out say, that your design philosphy has shifted away from those types of content or that we shouldn’t expect changes to fractal skin droprates (0,55% for the right weapon once a day!) i’d be totally fine with it but it’s always more frustrating to feel ignored by you guys
Anyway, thanks for being this open and popping in to clarify.

Ps: I completely agree that grind isn’t mandatory, but it’s important to still make it a fun activity for when you actually want to do it! Glad you see it the same way.

Brahmincorle.1264:

Gene Archer.8560:

Obtena.7952:

Nothing .. those are content meant for many teams. Point still stands … in the industry, GW2 is not grindy by traditional definitions. Maybe in 10 years it might be considered so, but for now, only the most noob players would QQ about grindy GW2.

You said people were soloing content meant for teams. I asked you who was soloing the raids. You said noone, cause those are meant for teams.

Sooo…which is it, then? Either people are soloing team content or they aren’t.

Funny, though, casue this game looks like every other MMO on the market to me in terms of grind and RNG, especially with ascended gear.

And I’m not a noob, so looks like you’re wrong.

You are comparing 5 man dungeons with raids dude that is not fair. If you want comapre 5 man dungeons with content from other games than compare them with 5 man dungeons from these games and hey! As a tank (paladin) I soloed bunch of 5 man heroics in epic ascended gear when they were relevant.

Exactly. The kind of experience you get from a teamed content vs. many teams content is VERY different and not comparable. The fact is neither are balanced around gear that needs to be ‘ground’ for in GW2 so the argument is rather academic.

ColinJohanson.2394:

Hey folks,

I just want to take a second to address this topic, because it’s something we state as one of our key philosophies – but don’t often clarify exactly what we mean we say it. And because everyone and their mother has their own unique interpretation of what grind can mean, it’s very simple for this to feel like we’re not following our own guidelines when we build and implement content.

When our company president said we have an anti-grind philosophy way back before Gw2 shipped, and when it has been repeatedly reinforced since then, our statement is simply: “We don’t think you should need to grind to get the best gear and stats in Guild Wars 2”.

So what exactly does that mean:

- The best gear/stats: This means to have statistically the best abilities in the game, you shouldn’t need to, by our definition of the word, grind. This goes for leveling and getting top gear (by our definition that’s ascended gear, legendary being an optional extra thing you can do, but don’t need to do.)

- Grind: To us, grind means being required to do the same boring activity over and over again. In particular, the biggest reference we’re talking about here in traditional MMO’s is having to kill the same creatures over and over again to farm for levels or gear. In Gw2, you can gain exp and levels from a massive variety of game play, game modes, and content types. Same goes for the ability to acquire the gear to build up your characters. Similarly, ascended mats can be acquired from a wide variety of content types and game modes to allow you choice and options so you don’t need to grind to complete those goals. Our new mastery system continues to this promise as well, which we’ll go into more detail on soon.

There are certainly optional activities in the game players can embark on that I think we’d openly accept fall into the category of our definition of more “grindy”. Earning certain unique skins, and in particular some titles absolutely qualify as things we’d put on this list. Legendary weapons have components to them that fall into this category, though we’ll be doing work in HOT to make this much less the case. We feel these are optional choices players don’t need to do, but can if they want, and because they are optional are acceptable within our statement that “Gw2 doesn’t make you grind to have the best gear/stats”. That doesn’t mean we can’t make those activities more fun as well, but when we say “no grind philosophy” we’re not including optional things you can do, but don’t need to do, in our definition.

Hope that helps a bit, that’s our philosophy and definition we’re going by when we make those statements. They may not align to your definition of grind, and that’s ok – we’re fine with that! It’s just important you know what we mean when we make that statement so you can make decisions about how you view Gw2 and judge us by our actions/words.

Thanks again for being so passionate about this topic and the game which ever side of the discussion you fall on. It’s something incredibly important to modern MMO’s and gamers in general, and we truly appreciate the dialogue you all are having on topics like this. It’s what makes better games for all of us.

I get what you are saying, but the big flaw in your reasoning, is assuming that multiple avenues are not also grindy.

For example, in general, the other avenue is to earn gold. Like you mention in traits, or in ascended, you could try to get 100 silk a day, or you can buy it.
but the reality is that once you enter the earning gold system, there will generally be a meta, or most effecient means to earn gold. Though in theory people can do anything, most people are going to do what is most effecient, the more the difference in effeciency, the less options you have. for example, doing jumping puzzles is not a viable alterantive to EOTM, Completing random dynamic events througout the world, likewise cannot compete.

Also, with the price thing, you have to realize, that if you set something at an equivalent value of say 2-3 hours worth of a players work (like getting 100 silk, 40 linen, 30 cotton) then people will roughly sell it for what they feel is a similar value. aka 2-3 hours work. This means the only way that you get to do these things without a large amount of work, via gold, is by being much more effecient at obtaining it. Which, will lead to grinding the most effecient gold earning mechanisms.

I get that you have options, but like you guys said with skills, bad skills are not real options, likewise alternate methods, that are highly ineffecient are not going to make the game feel less grindy.

Also, if you set something to take a large amount of grind in order to get, that will generally translate to a large grind in whatever form you want to play to earn gold that is equivalent. Having like 2 options doesnt change the actual feeling of grind on the streets.

Devata.6589:

Obtena.7952:

Nothing .. those are content meant for many teams, not a single team. The content you mentioned isn’t balanced around gear, it’s balanced around co-operation and player volume; those are RAID content, not instanced (re. dungeon/fractals) content.

Point still stands … in the industry, GW2 is not grindy by traditional definitions. Maybe in 10 years it might be considered so, but for now, only the most noob players would QQ about grindy GW2.

If you have no real arguments just start naming people you disagree with ‘Noobs’.

Not to mention that those ‘noobs’ are asking for something more interesting than the grind there is now. The defenders seem to like the brainless grind (or are not interested in the collecting (also mention as one of the important things for GW2 in the presentation!) those thing). So now wanting challenging content makes you a noob? But being fine with brainless grinding makes you a pro?

Makes sense!

My real argument is that people need a minimum perspective to be able to comment about what grind really is. They also need to consider Anet’s definition, which is genuine and realistic. Finally, they have to consider the target market of this game; it’s the casual player market and grindy activities are NOT endearing to those people. YOu don’t need to look too far to convince yourself this game is pretty successful with the casual players, indicating that the things they want to see and appeal to them, the game does deliver.

It offends you that I label those people as noobs? Too bad; that’s what people QQIng about grind tend to be because they have little MMO gaming experience. Real game vets would think this game is a joke in terms of grind level. It’s targeted at the casual player market an enables that level of player to obtain gear they can compete in very easily by simply BUYING it. To boot, you can get gear with karma, or gold you earn, or gold you got with gem exchange. Seriously, perspective, get some.

Serophous.9085:

Orpheal.8263:

The game has alot more grind, than many people think .

Other than ascended gear, name one other thing that is a grind in this game. Colin even gave their definition of what grind is to them. So by his definition (as everyone is just ignoring it and submitting their own), name one other.

Colin said what fits into there no grind philosophy but also said there where also other types of grind (like cosmetic grind) in GW2. That does not mean players should suddenly be fine with those types of grind. It only means then when Anet was talking about no grind they where mentioning a specific type of grind in stead of all grind. What might explain them not trying to prevent the endless grind there is in GW2 if it comes to some of those other things.

As hunting down cosmetics is usually (well not in GW2 because of the grind, but in any other MMO I played) something I like to do, I still dislike the endless (gold) grind that comes with those things. And that so called ‘required’ grind for gear that some other games have.. well I never did feel that grind while playing those games because I did not care about BiS gear and I did not need it to play the game (so still not sure where the ‘need’ idea comes from.. well I have an idea, from the people who want to get BiS, for them thats a need just as much as for those wanting cosmetics in GW2 there is a need for grind).

So there is grind and Colin even agreed on that "There are certainly optional activities in the game players can embark on that I think we’d openly accept fall into the category of our definition of more “grindy”. Earning certain unique skins, and in particular some titles absolutely qualify as things we’d put on this list. "
Makes me wonder why you are asking to name one other thing then ascended grind that is grindy in this game and even pointing out Colin as if that was to proof there is no other type of grind. Colin did give you an answer.

(as everyone is just ignoring it and submitting their own) Who is ignoring what?