"No-grind philosophy"
With no grind, they mean no mandatory grind. There is no gear threadmill.
You don’t have to grind in order to keep up. All the grind in this game is just for cosmetics. Sure there is ascended, but that’s only like 5% better than exotic so you don’t really need it.So is there grind for just cosmetics or cosmetics and stats?
5% is 5%, it’s there, it exists, you can’t deny it. You can choose to ignore it, convince yourself it’s not needed, attempt to convince others it’s not needed, but the fact of the matter remains, it’s a 5% increase in stats.Yes, a useless 5% is a useless 5%. And I never denied it’s existance, I merely pointed out the fact you don’t need it. I know it is not needed as all content can easily be completed without it (except fractals, but that’s because of agony resistance, not the stats itself).
You can try convincing yourself that this 5% increase is a big deal, but I know it is not.
Yes but you like many others don’t realize how the math works. I have 5% more heath your trying to get through. I have 5% more mitigation on top of that 5% more health and I’m hitting you 5% harder base plus 5% more crit etc. 5% in gaming stats is HUGE. 5% more healing anything it all compounds. In EVE people will let their characters train for months just to get another 3% on one particular skill. Because it is worth it.
Who is talking about 100 raids or get tokens (that btw already is in GW2, but is NOT directly rewarding specific content for specific content). Besides why the dislike?
I’m talking about it … you’re suggesting a raiding-for-reward system could solve grinding. Loot from raids is a delicate balance and frankly, just another player-subjective assessment like grinding is. Therefore, it’s not better than what we have now; if you have to raid too much, it’s a worse grind than doing whatever content you want for loot. If you have to raid too little for loot, then the reward is not there. What is too little or much is just player perception.
“I didn’t know hats and titles were considered BiS items. >< I think you’re just trolling me now.” The hat was gear with good stats. All the other where not indeed. That was the point.. People there where there for the cosmetics.. not for the stats. While you said “The general trend is that players grind for BiS”. As if that is what people are most interested in. Well that example did show that is not the case. There are also many people more interested in cosmetic stuff then in BiS stuff.
That’s a good story but it doesn’t mean my statement is nonsense. Just because Wow give out an item with good stats once doesn’t mean that generally, you don’t grind for BiS in MMO’s. I know for some people MMO = WoW because theie experience is limited but the MMO industry has much more to offer.
“Gold or items, it’s the SAME THING with the exception that you can only get raid-won items from a specific raid. Gold can be obtained anywhere.”
That exception is what makes the gold way so boring, devaluates that reward so much (an item you can simply buy after some brainless grind does not have the same value as an item rewarded for challeging content) and does not give the thrill of ‘will it drop’ in case of RNG but in stead just a boring number (gold) slowly going up to the point where you can then buy the item.
It is also what causes the trend of grinding whatever rewards the best gold in stead of sending you over the world to do all types of content.
Means to the end or ends to the mean? Yes there is a drawback for trending to best rewards content but the alternative is no better IMO because at least players have choice and I believe that’s what casual players want to do; choose what content they do with their limited game time.
Again, this all comes back to who this game is trying to appeal to. If you want to appeal to casual players as a developer, your NOT focused on putting in stupid crap like timed raids that you need to do 100 times with RNG loot to get one item; that’s an extreme example but I feel that’s where people are wishing this game would go. Forget it because it’s been tried and it sucks huge floppies for casual people.
The gold standard, the time gates, the low-quality gear balancing in dungeons, play-how-you-want philosophy … it couldn’t be more clear for whom this game is made to attract.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
No matter what current method chosen, it is still light years away from your very comment that by level 80, players should have the best statistical loot in the game.
Yeah to be clear on that one, as we’ve said before: we made that statement before the game launched, ultimately realized we didn’t think it was the right decision for Gw2 – and changed our mind. I fully own making this statement, the day I said it was our plan – our lead designer decided it was the wrong direction for the game after we stated it, and we changed direction.
Sometimes plans will change, I can assure you it’s never our intention to intentionally mislead/trick anyone, that’s simply the nature of development: from time to time things we say at one point later have to change.
The most satisfying read in this whole thread.
So white knights, that battled me before, on pages 1-2… what do you say now?
Because right now, yes, getting Ascended Armor is either a very expensive endeavor, or a very long grind of doing the same mundane tasks to get the materials needed to make the armor. Hiding behind the arugment of “But we have more then one way to get those materials” doesn’t work either, as like I said before those other methods are either just as repetitive (replacing World Boss grinding with Guild Mission grinding for Dragonite Ore, as an example) or so unrewarding (PvP Tracks), that there’s very little reason to actually do it.
OK but that’s inventing your own definition of what grinding is so of course you conclude you have to grind. The relevant one is from Anet’s perspective because they design the game. If your definition of grind includes multiple methods to be done to get the mats then no reasonable content can be devised to ensure you don’t think the game will be a grind for ascended gear. Literally, Anet would have to devise content for EVERY instance of need some portion of the mats you need to satisfy an extreme definition of no grinding. I think we can agree that would be insurmountable.
he clarified what he means by grind, but regardless of what he means, the “grind” that people often dislike involves repetive non interesting tasks that you have to do many many times to achieve your goals.
now if he means by the definition i just gave, masteries, and this expansion wont be grindy, then many will be happy.
But if he simply means it will either not be required for survival, or that there will be multiple repetive, uninteresting things you can do 1000s of times, they wont be that happy.
what people in this thread are trying to point out, is that regardless of what colin means when he says grindy, the game overall in fact feels very grindy to them. So much so that whenever they mention a lack of grind the players feel a strong disconect with how they expereince the game, and what the developers think is happening.
this bothers them a lot, not just because grind exists, but it makes it seem like the developers arent really on the same page as the players.
a grindy game where the developers are like we want people who put a lot of time in to feel rewarded, or we want you to be working on X item for 3 months. At least you are sure the developers intent. But when people hear them say gw2 isnt grindy, they are often like wait what? you mean you didnt do that on purpose? Im not supposed to be gathering gold or grinding cloth for my ascended armor for 30 days?
Because right now, yes, getting Ascended Armor is either a very expensive endeavor, or a very long grind of doing the same mundane tasks to get the materials needed to make the armor. Hiding behind the arugment of “But we have more then one way to get those materials” doesn’t work either, as like I said before those other methods are either just as repetitive (replacing World Boss grinding with Guild Mission grinding for Dragonite Ore, as an example) or so unrewarding (PvP Tracks), that there’s very little reason to actually do it.
OK but that’s inventing your own definition of what grinding is so of course you conclude you have to grind. The relevant one is from Anet’s perspective because they design the game. If your definition of grind includes multiple methods to be done to get the mats then no reasonable content can be devised to ensure you don’t think the game will be a grind for ascended gear. Literally, Anet would have to devise content for EVERY instance of need some portion of the mats you need to satisfy an extreme definition of no grinding. I think we can agree that would be insurmountable.
he clarified what he means by grind, but regardless of what he means, the “grind” that people often dislike involves repetive non interesting tasks that you have to do many many times to achieve your goals.
now if he means by the definition i just gave, masteries, and this expansion wont be grindy, then many will be happy.
But if he simply means it will either not be required for survival, or that there will be multiple repetive, uninteresting things you can do 1000s of times, they wont be that happy.
what people in this thread are trying to point out, is that regardless of what colin means when he says grindy, the game overall in fact feels very grindy to them. So much so that whenever they mention a lack of grind the players feel a strong disconect with how they expereince the game, and what the developers think is happening.
this bothers them a lot, not just because grind exists, but it makes it seem like the developers arent really on the same page as the players.
a grindy game where the developers are like we want people who put a lot of time in to feel rewarded, or we want you to be working on X item for 3 months. At least you are sure the developers intent. But when people hear them say gw2 isnt grindy, they are often like wait what? you mean you didnt do that on purpose? Im not supposed to be gathering gold or grinding cloth for my ascended armor for 30 days?
And what is anet to do? Follow everyone’s own personal definition of grind? No, Colin stated what their definition is. People can argue what their definition is, but in truth, they did stick too it to 99%, the 1 being ascended, which again, Colin admitted to.
So, by their definition, they did not make a grindy game. And they didn’t. I don’t find myself having to run in circles killing mobs to get to the next level because I ran out of hearts. I agree with their definition, its the same one I’ve been saying.
But honestly, take a step back and look at what everyone considers a grind. Do you honestly want to get to a point where if you have to do something a second time in this game, people will throw rocks and scream “no grind!”. No. So to ask them to adhere to every different definition, is asking for the impossible.
what people in this thread are trying to point out, is that regardless of what colin means when he says grindy, the game overall in fact feels very grindy to them. So much so that whenever they mention a lack of grind the players feel a strong disconect with how they expereince the game, and what the developers think is happening.
this bothers them a lot, not just because grind exists, but it makes it seem like the developers arent really on the same page as the players.
Sure, players have these perceptions. Let’s just say there is a disconnect. What is the alternative? Perhaps my big issue is that people feel it’s grindy but don’t recognize the measures Anet have in place to ease that feeling. Other than having new content for every time you venture out to get mats for things you want to make, what wouldn’t be grindy for people? At some point you DO hit a wall here. People DO have to recognize the very real limits of design and programming resources available to appease whatever definition they have for what is grindy.
Frankly, I think people complaining about grind are being obtuse, naive and unreasonable here. They want NO grinding? They need to stop playing MMO’s then. The fact they thought there would be no grind, just because Anet said so demonstrates how little they understand about how MMO’s work in the first place.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
While I do think that Ascended and cosmetic gear in GW2 is grindier than it needs to be, at the end of the day, I agree that they’re not essential (Exotics will do just fine, unless you’re doing high level Fractals), so I can live with the current state of the GW2 economy.
- Grind: To us, grind means being required to do the same boring activity over and over again. In particular, the biggest reference we’re talking about here in traditional MMO’s is having to kill the same creatures over and over again to farm for levels or gear. In Gw2, you can gain exp and levels from a massive variety of game play, game modes, and content types. Same goes for the ability to acquire the gear to build up your characters. Similarly, ascended mats can be acquired from a wide variety of content types and game modes to allow you choice and options so you don’t need to grind to complete those goals. Our new mastery system continues to this promise as well, which we’ll go into more detail on soon.
…
Yeah to be clear on that one, as we’ve said before: we made that statement before the game launched, ultimately realized we didn’t think it was the right decision for Gw2 – and changed our mind. I fully own making this statement, the day I said it was our plan – our lead designer decided it was the wrong direction for the game after we stated it, and we changed direction.
Okay, honestly, it’s a bit of a relief to see these two statements together in one place. I don’t think anybody at Arenanet has articulated these things as clearly as this before, and for me it clears up the reasoning behind several very confusing decisions that the company has made over the past couple years.
So I won’t be buying ‘Heart of Thorns’. I can see how my personal definition of grind and Arenanet’s own conflict nearly irreconcilably.
Colin, your definition of grind solely concerns the variety of tasks. My personal definition of grind encompasses that, yes, but more importantly it includes some consideration of the total amount of work required to be done in any particular task.
To put it shortly, doing one thing four hundred times would be grind by both our definitions. Doing four things each a hundred times would fail to be grind by your definition, but would still be considered a grind by me.
I strongly urge your company to consider grind as ‘total amount of work required’ when designing content. You have not to date, and I have no reason to expect you will in future, but I have to make that recommendation.
So with this particular philosophy in place, I can not but expect ‘Heart of Thorns’ to include what would seem to me to be ‘grind’ in the acquisition of mastery points. I can only guess that it would provide relatively little enjoyment before beginning to aggravate me in the same way that ascended gear and the new trait system aggravate me.
So rather than sit here moping on the forums providing sarcastic feedback for the next several months, I’m sorry, I’m just bowing out. Putting the puppy to bed.
I’ll stick around and offer more feedback if you have any personal comments to make in reply to my post, because I have enjoyed the game. But when you changed your conviction about requiring ‘work’ for in-game best stats and what not, post launch, you essentially moved away from me.
I’ll tell you how bad the difference between our definitions of grind is, though. You call your game, honestly, by your definition, ‘no grind’. By my own particular definition, GW2 is one of the grindiest games I’ve ever played. No other MMO that I’ve played for any length of time requires quite as much work for best gear. Not nearly.
(edited by Lheimroo.2947)
No matter what current method chosen, it is still light years away from your very comment that by level 80, players should have the best statistical loot in the game.
Yeah to be clear on that one, as we’ve said before: we made that statement before the game launched, ultimately realized we didn’t think it was the right decision for Gw2 – and changed our mind. I fully own making this statement, the day I said it was our plan – our lead designer decided it was the wrong direction for the game after we stated it, and we changed direction.
Sometimes plans will change, I can assure you it’s never our intention to intentionally mislead/trick anyone, that’s simply the nature of development: from time to time things we say at one point later have to change.
Y’know, I get that that stuff happens. What chaps my hide about the change in direction for max stats was that there was the Eurogamer interview, then nothing contradicting it until three months post launch. I bought the game based at least in part on that announcement, and might not have if the change was announced earlier. Frankly, this is the one bad taste in my mouth about GW2 and ArenaNet, and it’s hard to let it go.
I dunno where this debate is going, but after reading Colin’s replies, i’m onboard with that and was at the onset. I’ve 8 80s now and each one is exotic geared, while two are fully ascended. It takes time and just playing the game and having fun with it to get geared. If you get the “I hafta”s, then sure, you’re going to be able to point out that every single task in the game is a grind, but again, its perception.
No matter what current method chosen, it is still light years away from your very comment that by level 80, players should have the best statistical loot in the game.
Yeah to be clear on that one, as we’ve said before: we made that statement before the game launched, ultimately realized we didn’t think it was the right decision for Gw2 – and changed our mind. I fully own making this statement, the day I said it was our plan – our lead designer decided it was the wrong direction for the game after we stated it, and we changed direction.
Sometimes plans will change, I can assure you it’s never our intention to intentionally mislead/trick anyone, that’s simply the nature of development: from time to time things we say at one point later have to change.
The most satisfying read in this whole thread.
So white knights, that battled me before, on pages 1-2… what do you say now?
Well, I wasn’t battling you at all, but I say you really need to find a better thing to do than calling out people for the sake of being “right”. Priorities, man.
Also, still pointing out that lovely pink gear is perhaps one of the bigger wastes of time and effort if you’re not planning on delving Fractals. Much more worth it to make the parts and sell em on the Trading Post.
. . . yes, you can flip crafting components for profit. It’s probably the best thing you can do with them.
Ascended is the one of the worse things to happen to this game just next to the trait change.
Also lol at the people who think 5% increase in stat is hardly anything.
Either way the no grind philosphy was long broken by the mentioned pink item introduction.
Ascended is the one of the worse things to happen to this game just next to the trait change.
No, see, from polling in a totally scientific and fair fashion the worst things to happen to this game, in reverse order:
- Ascended
- Living Story
- Scarlet
- Being released.
Similarly, ascended mats can be acquired from a wide variety of content types and game modes to allow you choice and options so you don’t need to grind to complete those goals.
Except they’re not. Bloodstone from exotic champ bags. Okay, so you have to take on champs. Easy enough to do in groups but sometimes, a lot of times, you don’t “qualify” for the exotic bag. I’m not talking about standing autocasting your 1 attack but throwing everything and the kitchen sink at it. Champs at boss events are a lot tougher simply due to the number of players attacking if the qualifier is some % of damage done to indicate participation.
That said most players have 30 stacks of bloodstone. Dragonite and Empyreal drop easiest from Dungeons, Fractals or PvP. If you don’t do those because you don’t like those types of play, you are stuck getting a few here and there while PvPers or Dungeon runners (including Fractals) get them by the truck load.
You may not think it’s grinding, but when the most direct way to get the materials for ascended mats is doing activities you aren’t thrilled about over and over again, I think most people would consider that grinding.
Just another PoV to consider.
You get truck loads of dragonite ore, empyreal fragments, bloodstone dust and obsidian shards in Silverwastes too. Do a couple of breaches and you’ll have more of them than you’ll ever need or want. They are supposed to be the highest rarity crafting materials but they are actually slightly worse than junk loot. At least junk loot can be vendor for a few coppers.
Yes but you like many others don’t realize how the math works. I have 5% more heath your trying to get through. I have 5% more mitigation on top of that 5% more health and I’m hitting you 5% harder base plus 5% more crit etc. 5% in gaming stats is HUGE. 5% more healing anything it all compounds. In EVE people will let their characters train for months just to get another 3% on one particular skill. Because it is worth it.
Except those numbers are much lower in reality. Only 5% more damage is a correct value.
Colin has still not given a single legitimate excuse or explanation concerning the attainment of ascended armor and weapons, which through ANets horrendously grindy crafting qualifies in spades for everything he has said they consider to be grinding and unhealthy.
You can do, nothing to attain ascended gear unless you grind mats or grind gold from the exact same repetitive content over and over again for literally thousands of hours. And while at first it didn’t qualify, because ascended was not necessary for anything but fractals, ANet has been and I wager will continue making content clearly geared for BiS gear; Drytop, Silverwastes, Tequatl, Triwurm, and the new TA path are all content scaled to ascended gear, and HoT will be.
It is an outright falsehood to say that there is no required grind in this game so long as all newly added content is scaled for BiS gear which does in fact require a grind.
(edited by Conncept.7638)
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That’s a good story but it doesn’t mean my statement is nonsense. Just because Wow give out an item with good stats once doesn’t mean that generally, you don’t grind for BiS in MMO’s. I know for some people MMO = WoW because theie experience is limited but the MMO industry has much more to offer.
“Gold or items, it’s the SAME THING with the exception that you can only get raid-won items from a specific raid. Gold can be obtained anywhere.”
That exception is what makes the gold way so boring, devaluates that reward so much (an item you can simply buy after some brainless grind does not have the same value as an item rewarded for challeging content) and does not give the thrill of ‘will it drop’ in case of RNG but in stead just a boring number (gold) slowly going up to the point where you can then buy the item.
It is also what causes the trend of grinding whatever rewards the best gold in stead of sending you over the world to do all types of content.Means to the end or ends to the mean? Yes there is a drawback for trending to best rewards content but the alternative is no better IMO because at least players have choice and I believe that’s what casual players want to do; choose what content they do with their limited game time.
Again, this all comes back to who this game is trying to appeal to. If you want to appeal to casual players as a developer, your NOT focused on putting in stupid crap like timed raids that you need to do 100 times with RNG loot to get one item; that’s an extreme example but I feel that’s where people are wishing this game would go. Forget it because it’s been tried and it sucks huge floppies for casual people.
The gold standard, the time gates, the low-quality gear balancing in dungeons, play-how-you-want philosophy … it couldn’t be more clear for whom this game is made to attract.
I say specific rewards for specific content and you translate that to “raiding-for-reward system” with a 1% drop change (explaining your 100 raids). Yes that would be one very specific way specific rewards for specific content could work and if that would be a good version is another discussion, but there are many other ways. If you for example put it in a raid it could also be a 100% drop change or a 10% and it’s not only for raids but also for events, mini-games, dungeons, JP’s, specific mob kills, world bosses, guild-missions. Holding a keep in WvW for x time, taking a keep in WvW or whatever.
So “you’re suggesting a raiding-for-reward system”, no, I did not even use the word ‘raids’.
“Loot from raids is a delicate balance and frankly” again, I did not even use the word raids. That’s something that somehow popped up into your mind at some point but is not what I said. And yes specific loot for specific content could also mean specific loot for a specific raid but focusing on this one element as if that is what I talked about is kinda useless because it’s not what I talked about. In addition you also ignore he optional gold grind way that could still be available (but new truly optional).
“Just because Wow give out an item with good stats once doesn’t mean that generally, you don’t grind for BiS in MMO’s. I know for some people MMO = WoW because theie experience is limited but the MMO industry has much more to offer.” I really think you are underestimating the percentage of people caring more for cosmetics then for BiS and that’s why I think you can’t say in general it’s BiS gear what people go for. I used the WoW example because it’s known as a tier grind game (and because everybody knows it).
“at least players have choice” so where is my choice to directly work towards these items?, hunt them down in the open world in a viable way?
Even for the limited number of items where that is technically possible (not realistically) you would be punishing yourself doing it that way because it would take much longer, time that you would then also lose trying to get another Item you might also want to get (meaning in the end it does not just take longer but you get less).
Meanwhile other people would be running around with the same item they grind gold for in some brainless for a day. So you don’t have the choice to hunt them down in the open world, the only choice you have is how to grind the gold (what I personally find boring) what is even a limited choice because many things simply reward way lower then some other content so you would be punishing yourself choosing the lesser optimal ways.
And if you really think the player base would hate this so much you should wonder why the MF dungeon used to be so popular. Might it have been also because of the mini and back-pack it rewarded. Only negative about it was that it was temporary.
And while at first it didn’t qualify, because ascended was not necessary for anything but fractals, ANet has been and I wager will continue making content clearly geared for BiS gear; Drytop, Silverwastes, Tequatl, Triwurm, and the new TA path are all content scaled to ascended gear, and HoT will be.
Excuse me, but if you need ascended gear for the content you listet, then I’m sorry to say but that’s not a problem of power creep but a simple problem of l2p. You can do all that content just as well with a mix of exotics, rares and even masterwork equipment. I know I do so all the time, since I have neither the time not the interest to equip more than one or two of my characters with ascended gear (and the one that actually is equiped with full ascended by now is equiped specifically for high-level fractals and mostly goes back to exotics originally gotten for WvW when going into places like Dry Top or Silverwastes).
Because right now, yes, getting Ascended Armor is either a very expensive endeavor, or a very long grind of doing the same mundane tasks to get the materials needed to make the armor. Hiding behind the arugment of “But we have more then one way to get those materials” doesn’t work either, as like I said before those other methods are either just as repetitive (replacing World Boss grinding with Guild Mission grinding for Dragonite Ore, as an example) or so unrewarding (PvP Tracks), that there’s very little reason to actually do it.
OK but that’s inventing your own definition of what grinding is so of course you conclude you have to grind. The relevant one is from Anet’s perspective because they design the game. If your definition of grind includes multiple methods to be done to get the mats then no reasonable content can be devised to ensure you don’t think the game will be a grind for ascended gear. Literally, Anet would have to devise content for EVERY instance of need some portion of the mats you need to satisfy an extreme definition of no grinding. I think we can agree that would be insurmountable.
he clarified what he means by grind, but regardless of what he means, the “grind” that people often dislike involves repetive non interesting tasks that you have to do many many times to achieve your goals.
now if he means by the definition i just gave, masteries, and this expansion wont be grindy, then many will be happy.
But if he simply means it will either not be required for survival, or that there will be multiple repetive, uninteresting things you can do 1000s of times, they wont be that happy.
what people in this thread are trying to point out, is that regardless of what colin means when he says grindy, the game overall in fact feels very grindy to them. So much so that whenever they mention a lack of grind the players feel a strong disconect with how they expereince the game, and what the developers think is happening.
this bothers them a lot, not just because grind exists, but it makes it seem like the developers arent really on the same page as the players.
a grindy game where the developers are like we want people who put a lot of time in to feel rewarded, or we want you to be working on X item for 3 months. At least you are sure the developers intent. But when people hear them say gw2 isnt grindy, they are often like wait what? you mean you didnt do that on purpose? Im not supposed to be gathering gold or grinding cloth for my ascended armor for 30 days?
And what is anet to do? Follow everyone’s own personal definition of grind? No, Colin stated what their definition is. People can argue what their definition is, but in truth, they did stick too it to 99%, the 1 being ascended, which again, Colin admitted to.
So, by their definition, they did not make a grindy game. And they didn’t. I don’t find myself having to run in circles killing mobs to get to the next level because I ran out of hearts. I agree with their definition, its the same one I’ve been saying.
But honestly, take a step back and look at what everyone considers a grind. Do you honestly want to get to a point where if you have to do something a second time in this game, people will throw rocks and scream “no grind!”. No. So to ask them to adhere to every different definition, is asking for the impossible.
You should read Colin’s post again. He did not define grind, he explained what grind fitted in there ‘no grind philosophy’ also acknowledging there was grind in the game and they might also could make that more fun but that grind (so he did see it as grind, it’s not like they had another definition for it) was not what they talked about when talking about the ‘no grind philosophy’. The definition of grind has not changed.
And of course people still mike dislike that grind there is and Colin acknowledged there is. Also if that is not what Anet talked about when mentioning the ‘no grind philosophy’.
“Do you honestly want to get to a point where if you have to do something a second time in this game” I think it’s pretty clear what people are referring to with grind and it’s not doing something a second time. For some it’s the ascended stuff, for other the gold grind and so on. I also don’t think this is not clear, the discussion is more how bad it is and that is where people have different options about how bad the different types of grind are for the game. Truth is, that depends mainly on what game-play elements you prefer.
(edited by Devata.6589)
ascended isn’t the only 1, when trait change happened, their whole philosophy went out the window literally.
ascended isn’t the only 1, when trait change happened, their whole philosophy went out the window literally.
The trait change has nothing at all to do with grind. I dislike the trait change immensely, but having people do a bunch of different things to unlock a bunch of different traits isn’t grind.
If you have to clear a zone to unlock a trait and then kill the grub to unlock a different trait and then do a story mode dungeon to unlock a different trait, it sucks.
But I don’t see how you can classify it as grind.
what people in this thread are trying to point out, is that regardless of what colin means when he says grindy, the game overall in fact feels very grindy to them. So much so that whenever they mention a lack of grind the players feel a strong disconect with how they expereince the game, and what the developers think is happening.
this bothers them a lot, not just because grind exists, but it makes it seem like the developers arent really on the same page as the players.
Sure, players have these perceptions. Let’s just say there is a disconnect. What is the alternative? Perhaps my big issue is that people feel it’s grindy but don’t recognize the measures Anet have in place to ease that feeling. Other than having new content for every time you venture out to get mats for things you want to make, what wouldn’t be grindy for people? At some point you DO hit a wall here. People DO have to recognize the very real limits of design and programming resources available to appease whatever definition they have for what is grindy.
Frankly, I think people complaining about grind are being obtuse, naive and unreasonable here. They want NO grinding? They need to stop playing MMO’s then. The fact they thought there would be no grind, just because Anet said so demonstrates how little they understand about how MMO’s work in the first place.
Sorry but what a nonsense. As if the people complaining just don’t know how mmo’s work and never played another mmo and so don’t understand Anet’s version is as grind-free as it can get.
I did play multiple other MMO’s and the fact is that if it comes to the game-play I like best (cosmetic stuff) guild-wars is the most grindy of them all, by far, the others didn’t even come close in amount of grind. (Resulting in me not doing this game-play in GW2) Sure, I had to farm a mob to get a mini to drop a few times in those other mmo’s but then there were also mini’s rewarded for quests, for dungeons (sometimes RNG other times 100%) and so on. All in all it was not so very grindy to collect all those items, it did feel much more like a hunt all over the world.
So it’s perfectly reasonable to ask for the same in GW2.
In GuildWars 2 however that is all grind gold, grind gold and grind gold.
(edited by Devata.6589)
ascended isn’t the only 1, when trait change happened, their whole philosophy went out the window literally.
The trait change has nothing at all to do with grind. I dislike the trait change immensely, but having people do a bunch of different things to unlock a bunch of different traits isn’t grind.
If you have to clear a zone to unlock a trait and then kill the grub to unlock a different trait and then do a story mode dungeon to unlock a different trait, it sucks.
But I don’t see how you can classify it as grind.
Seems like we agree here. This is not grind. I don’t agree on the ‘it sucks’ part. It should have been there form release and should be account unlocks, not character. But it does give people reasons to go into the world to do some specific things. So I don’t think it sucks but it isn’t grind.
Sorry but what a nonsense. As if the people complaining just don’t know how mmo’s work and never played another mmo and so don’t understand Anet’s version is as grind-free as it can get.
I did play multiple other MMO’s and the fact is that if it comes to the game-play I like best (cosmetic stuff) guild-wars is the most grindy of them all, by far, the others didn’t even come close in amount of grind. (Resulting in me not doing this game-play in GW2) Sure, I had to farm a mob to get a mini to drop a few times in those other mmo’s but then there were also mini’s rewarded for quests, for dungeons (sometimes RNG other times 100%) and so on. All in all it was not so very grindy to collect all those items, it did feel much more like a hunt all over the world.
So it’s perfectly reasonable to ask for the same in GW2.
In GuildWars 2 however that is all grind gold, grind gold and grind gold.
No, it isn’t perfectly reasonable to ask the same, as cosmetic items do not fill the same role in GW2’s content design. Cosmetic variations are GW2’s replacement for epic tier loot, and cannot be compared to a more traditional mmo’s cosmetic unlocks.
When you compare time to Legendary in GW2 to time to a full max tier epic set in WoW, GW2 comes out fairly favorably (and even more so in that Legendaries are forever and that max tier epic is always one content release away from obsolete). The issue here is a mismatch of expectations arising from the nonstandard approach to gear progression; if the cosmetic unlocks were as easy in GW2 as they are in other MMOs there would be close to zero prestige items in the game. The prestige cosmetic items are meant to be as out of reach, or perhaps it’d be better to call it aspirational, for your casual player as a full raid set is in another game. And even there, there are many more ways to make progress toward those items in GW2, at much lower skill levels.
Things are just generally more accessible to a much greater portion of the playerbase than just about anywhere else, once you factor the skill and time gates of endgame content in those other games.
Edit: which to echo Colin, isn’t to say that there aren’t ways to make some of that less obnoxious or boring. Having more time gated but consistent payout systems would alleviate some of the rng pain points and provide a more consistent sense of progression, especially if tied to more interesting content, rather than just log in bonuses, and I think there’s a legitimate debate to be had surrounding the rarity/crafting requirement ratios for certain t6 materials, particularly lodestones. More normalization of time to item within a specific class of gear would be good, rather than having that vary wildly depending on material type.
(edited by Eolirin.1830)
Yes but you like many others don’t realize how the math works. I have 5% more heath your trying to get through. I have 5% more mitigation on top of that 5% more health and I’m hitting you 5% harder base plus 5% more crit etc. 5% in gaming stats is HUGE. 5% more healing anything it all compounds. In EVE people will let their characters train for months just to get another 3% on one particular skill. Because it is worth it.
Except those numbers are much lower in reality. Only 5% more damage is a correct value.
I’m not sure where you are getting your numbers, but the damage increase from exotic to ascended zerker/assassin gear is a 20% overall increase. (in lvl 80 content)
The only two sets that have a 5% dmg increase are soldiers and rabid gear, since they rely on a single main dmg stat.
Hey folks,
I just want to take a second to address this topic, because it’s something we state as one of our key philosophies – but don’t often clarify exactly what we mean we say it. And because everyone and their mother has their own unique interpretation of what grind can mean, it’s very simple for this to feel like we’re not following our own guidelines when we build and implement content.
When our company president said we have an anti-grind philosophy way back before Gw2 shipped, and when it has been repeatedly reinforced since then, our statement is simply: “We don’t think you should need to grind to get the best gear and stats in Guild Wars 2”.
So what exactly does that mean:
- The best gear/stats: This means to have statistically the best abilities in the game, you shouldn’t need to, by our definition of the word, grind. This goes for leveling and getting top gear (by our definition that’s ascended gear, legendary being an optional extra thing you can do, but don’t need to do.)
- Grind: To us, grind means being required to do the same boring activity over and over again. In particular, the biggest reference we’re talking about here in traditional MMO’s is having to kill the same creatures over and over again to farm for levels or gear. In Gw2, you can gain exp and levels from a massive variety of game play, game modes, and content types. Same goes for the ability to acquire the gear to build up your characters. Similarly, ascended mats can be acquired from a wide variety of content types and game modes to allow you choice and options so you don’t need to grind to complete those goals. Our new mastery system continues to this promise as well, which we’ll go into more detail on soon.
There are certainly optional activities in the game players can embark on that I think we’d openly accept fall into the category of our definition of more “grindy”. Earning certain unique skins, and in particular some titles absolutely qualify as things we’d put on this list. Legendary weapons have components to them that fall into this category, though we’ll be doing work in HOT to make this much less the case. We feel these are optional choices players don’t need to do, but can if they want, and because they are optional are acceptable within our statement that “Gw2 doesn’t make you grind to have the best gear/stats”. That doesn’t mean we can’t make those activities more fun as well, but when we say “no grind philosophy” we’re not including optional things you can do, but don’t need to do, in our definition.
Hope that helps a bit, that’s our philosophy and definition we’re going by when we make those statements. They may not align to your definition of grind, and that’s ok – we’re fine with that! It’s just important you know what we mean when we make that statement so you can make decisions about how you view Gw2 and judge us by our actions/words.
Thanks again for being so passionate about this topic and the game which ever side of the discussion you fall on. It’s something incredibly important to modern MMO’s and gamers in general, and we truly appreciate the dialogue you all are having on topics like this. It’s what makes better games for all of us.
Thanks for this post, Colin. I was going to post something very similar about grind myself, as I believe Anet’s definition of grind is the same as mine.
To me, a ‘no grind game’ is when you do not have to repeatedly do the same single activity in order to complete your character’s progression (levels, skills, traits, gear, etc.). And as far as I can tell, GW2 lives up to the no-grind philosophy very well.
The truth is, there is nothing in GW2 that you HAVE to repeat in order to get your character maxed out. While agony resistance may be considered a grinded stat, it is only applicable to fractals so if you enjoy playing fractals you are not going to find it a grind to acquire. And if you do not like fractals, you do not need to gain AR. Therefore it is only maxing out your fractal progression, not your character’s global progression.
Ascended may take a while to aquire, for sure, but you do not need to repeat the same content in order to acquire it. And that is the key point here. I also think that is where a lot of people are going wrong with the idea of grind and Anet’s definition of it.
Personally I am very happy with the quantity and type of grinding in GW2, and I believe Anet are following their no grind philosophy very well, as per their definition.
I’m not sure where you are getting your numbers, but the damage increase from exotic to ascended zerker/assassin gear is a 20% overall increase. (in lvl 80 content)
The only two sets that have a 5% dmg increase are soldiers and rabid gear, since they rely on a single main dmg stat.
First of all, ascended is better tier of gear only in level 80 content, in lower level content it is being downscaled to exotic tier.
Secondly, I’ve just done some quick calculations and full ascended warrior with 65003 build has 85 more power and 47 more precision and ferocity. That gives about 6% more effective power with no buffs and about 5% more effective power with 25 might stacks, fury and both banners. Together with the weapon damage increase of the ascended tier that gives about 7.5% damage increase.
Thirdly, the most expensive part of getting fully ascended gear is the armour and if you are not doing any high level fractals it’s extremely pointless to craft it just for additional stats. For the price of about 400-500g you get a miniscule stats increase. Defense increase is also tiny considering that damage reduction is a reciprocal function.
Don’t forget that even though ascended tier gives about 6% more stats, you should remember about stats you gain from traits and your base stats aswell. The best ascended item category are weapons because of their higher weapon strength. The rest gives a hardly noticeable improvement.
I’m not sure where you are getting your numbers, but the damage increase from exotic to ascended zerker/assassin gear is a 20% overall increase. (in lvl 80 content)
The only two sets that have a 5% dmg increase are soldiers and rabid gear, since they rely on a single main dmg stat.
20% increase in stats doesn’t equal 20% dmg increase. A complete set of zerker exotic vs a complete set of zerker ascended = 9-10% dmg increase by itself. When you add up all the buff in group content (might, vulnerability, fury, banners, etc), then you reach a boost of 5%.
20% increase in stats doesn’t equal 20% dmg increase. A complete set of zerker exotic vs a complete set of zerker ascended = 9-10% dmg increase.
The 5% come from armor/weapons only. Its because trinket were easy to get and came first, the 5% came when they launched the armor/weapons and that most ppl already had ascended trinket.
It’s not 20% increase in stats, it’s about 6,06%. His point is that berserker’s gear uses triple stats increase (power, precision and ferocity) so that value is as high as 20%.
20% increase in stats doesn’t equal 20% dmg increase. A complete set of zerker exotic vs a complete set of zerker ascended = 9-10% dmg increase.
The 5% come from armor/weapons only. Its because trinket were easy to get and came first, the 5% came when they launched the armor/weapons and that most ppl already had ascended trinket.
It’s not 20% increase in stats, it’s about 6,06%. His point is that berserker’s gear uses triple stats increase (power, precision and ferocity) so that value is as high as 20%.
Show the math please that supports 20%+
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“No, it isn’t perfectly reasonable to ask the same, as cosmetic items do not fill the same role in GW2’s content design. Cosmetic variations are GW2’s replacement for epic tier loot” that would even more reason to ask for it. I kind of do agree with you that cosmetics variations are GW2’s replacement for epic tier, or said in an other way, the main thing to go for, for most people.
But you do understand that by saying this you are basically also saying the game is P2W (winning is getting that epic tier loot right) as you can buy that epic tier loot here from the cash-shop? And what is then still interesting from the ‘no grind philosophy’? Yeah in our game BiS is not a grind like in those other games where you have to grind to get that epic tier, we do it different. Then again, in our game cosmetics are the epic tier and that is a grind from hell.
No, if it is like you say (and like I said I do sort of agree) then there is even more reason to ask this and the whole ‘no grind philosophy’ would be meaningless.
“When you compare time to Legendary in GW2 to time to a full max tier epic set in WoW” But I am a cosmetic guy so never did care for the max tier epic set in WoW. In fact that is one of the things that interest me in GW2, the cosmetic focus, that in combination with the game being B2P and not F2P because I dislike what cash-shops do to a game.
So as a cosmetics guy I might be better off in a game based around BiS gear while as a BiS gear guy you might be better off in a game based around cosmetics? Sad thing is that there is some truth in that as a game based on cosmetics seems to also monetize that part making the game-play aspect of it suffer. Now the B2P part should solve that but that worked out differently.
Still, while there is some truth in this it does not mean people should then not ask for the it to be not so grindy. It’s very reasonable to ask it. As you want to enjoy the main content instead of it being a boring grind.
“if the cosmetic unlocks were as easy in GW2 as they are in other MMOs there would be close to zero prestige items in the game.”
That is not true at all, it’s just the other way around. Many of those cosmetic unlocks in those other games are not easy, they might even be very hard and very rare, they just aren’t as much as a grind. That is something else. Because of that there is MORE prestige in having these cosmetics in those games.
What prestige is there in any of these cosmetics in GW2? None whatsoever. What prestige does a Legendary weapon give? OMG that guy has spent a lot of money buying that thing or did a lot of brainless grind to buy it. How awesome. Great prestige, not. One of the few prestige cosmetics in this game (and more in line with the prestige in those other games) is Liadri and that is because it is not a grind but associated with specific hard content!
Also getting a nice collecting of these cosmetics in those other games is by far an easy task or easy to reach goal. It might be not as grindy as in GW2 but in no way it’s an easy task. No, brainless farming is the easy way. It’s challenging but fun and the items a lot of game-value (prestige) to them. But again we get to the point where you would almost conclude that cosmetic people should play non-cosmetic games.
“Having more time gated but consistent payout systems would alleviate some of the rng pain” no that would not make it better, in a way the gold grind already does that. It’s a really consistent payout but just takes time to get the money you need to buy. Also I do not need to get stuff for free only by putting in ‘waiting time’. That sounds interesting to you?
About the materials, that would already be nice if it would be directly obtainable in a viable way instead of the only viable way being the grind gold and buy it. Even if the total time spend might still be similar (for most).
(edited by Devata.6589)
Show the math please that supports 20%+
That’s his point not mine:
I’m not sure where you are getting your numbers, but the damage increase from exotic to ascended zerker/assassin gear is a 20% overall increase. (in lvl 80 content)
The only two sets that have a 5% dmg increase are soldiers and rabid gear, since they rely on a single main dmg stat.
I say it’s about 7,5% in direct damage increase and much less in everything else like condition damage, healing, health or damage reduction.
like i said, this is just marketing speak. The reality is guild wars is just as grindy as any other game when it comes to best in slot, and way more grindy when it comes to cosmetics.
Thats ok, it really doesnt matter.
most of the people discussing here, have accepted the grind, or they ignore it. Also If guild wars does what they say they want to do, and makes more challenging content, you best believe people will want you in whatever is the best gear. Regardless of whether its possible to win, if it makes it less likely, they will want you in gear, and if it fails they will blame the people with low gear.i know this will happen because it already happens in GW2.
and you will grind to get that gear, or those masteries, so you can access those extra areas.
The do hope they realize the game was actually grindy, because if whoever picks their numbers for things keep picking the numbers, you can look forward to ascended, halloween II, mistfire wolf mini, WvW achievement like numbers for your new progression.
Actually no some of us haven’t accepted that they did a 180 from their original design, that’s a dismissive move on your part to make it seem like our concerns aren’t warranted. There’s something to be said about honesty and it’s obvious that we’re not getting honesty here with the statements during the show.
Things like mobile apps, max level gear being achieved by level 80 to make it not a concern for players when they’ve spent time leveling, personal story being personal and not needing a 5 man to complete, dungeons being for everyone instead of being controlled by the Zerg crowd, combat balance which is still listed on the front page saying things like “it doesn’t matter which class you play”, play as you like (and still be balanced and rewarded properly), exploration being a serious thing (which has turned into a find the coin nonsense in most of the LS patches we’re seeing in LS2 in the only two zones we’re seeing it in), events being added to the older zones that make them more dynamic having more branches so to speak and therefore alot less repetition of the same old events from launch (ie. dynamic).
There’s alot missing that should have been that some of us were waiting for and have been and as my signature indicates, there’s still time with this Expansion coming out to make sure all ducks are in a row.
(edited by tigirius.9014)
I’m not sure where you are getting your numbers, but the damage increase from exotic to ascended zerker/assassin gear is a 20% overall increase. (in lvl 80 content)
The only two sets that have a 5% dmg increase are soldiers and rabid gear, since they rely on a single main dmg stat.
20% increase in stats doesn’t equal 20% dmg increase. A complete set of zerker exotic vs a complete set of zerker ascended = 9-10% dmg increase by itself. When you add up all the buff in group content (might, vulnerability, fury, banners, etc), then you reach a boost of 5%.
1003/1087*10 = 9,227230910763569% Increase in stats. There you go genius.
no grind? i killed treq 382 times and i still didnt get the chest
Excuse me, but if you need ascended gear for the content you listet, then I’m sorry to say but that’s not a problem of power creep but a simple problem of l2p.
No I’m afraid it is a learn to think issue on your part. All of that content has a win condition based on harsh and unforgiving failure timers, if you don’t bring max stats you are contributing to the content failing, if enough people don’t the content is a lost cause before it even begins. Just ask TTS how many people they bring along in exotic gear to their triwurm, tequatl, and vinewraith runs, the answer you will get is absolutely none. Be in BiS gear, or don’t show up.
(edited by Conncept.7638)
Excuse me, but if you need ascended gear for the content you listet, then I’m sorry to say but that’s not a problem of power creep but a simple problem of l2p.
No I’m afraid it is a learn to think issue on your part. All of that content has a win condition based on harsh and unforgiving failure timers, if you don’t bring max stats you are contributing to the content failing, if enough people don’t the content is guaranteed to fail. Just ask TTS how many people they bring along in exotic gear to their triwurm runs, the answer you will get is absolutely none.
At least one, right here.
Excuse me, but if you need ascended gear for the content you listet, then I’m sorry to say but that’s not a problem of power creep but a simple problem of l2p.
No I’m afraid it is a learn to think issue on your part. All of that content has a win condition based on harsh and unforgiving failure timers, if you don’t bring max stats you are contributing to the content failing, if enough people don’t the content is guaranteed to fail. Just ask TTS how many people they bring along in exotic gear to their triwurm runs, the answer you will get is absolutely none.
At least one, right here.
I’ve participated in TTS events (in exotics) and I’m not even a guild member. There is a big difference between the people they make sure are there and the people they get once the megaserver has shuffled the deck.
(edited by Conncept.7638)
“Having more time gated but consistent payout systems would alleviate some of the rng pain” no that would not make it better, in a way the gold grind already does that. It’s a really consistent payout but just takes time to get the money you need to buy. Also I do not need to get stuff for free only by putting in ‘waiting time’. That sounds interesting to you?
About the materials, that would already be nice if it would be directly obtainable in a viable way instead of the only viable way being the grind gold and buy it. Even is the total time spend might still be similar (for most).
Perhaps I am the one missing the point, but it seems like this is mostly a case of not being able to have it all, along with the additional need to have multi-month time sinks for players that invest 4+ hours a day.
If you tie rewards to going around the world doing specific goals, then either the dedicated players will blow through everything in a month and complain about there being nothing to do, or you have to set each goal to take 60 hours or so in order to gate it to two goals a month max. If you require 60 hours of, say, jumping puzzles to get a mini or a skin, then you’ve created a typical “grind” of the type Anet is trying to avoid.
To avoid that issue you can substitute gold. If everything generates gold, and gold can buy everything, then you can do whatever you want for 60 hours and buy your item, or just buy gold with cash and fund the game, or be an auction house trader, or whatever strikes your fancy. Of course, the unintended side effect seems to be that people who are playing for direct pursuit of goals find themselves in a permanent “meta grind”…. grind gold, non-stop, for everything you want.
To avoid that issue you can time gate instead, but investing “waiting time” isn’t exactly riveting or challenging game play.
I honestly sympathize with the game designers. I don’t know how you balance people who play two hours a week with those who play 6 hours a day, and people who are highly skilled with people who can’t ever finish a jumping puzzle and just mash buttons as they come off cooldown, and still have everyone feel equally entertained and rewarded.
Excuse me, but if you need ascended gear for the content you listet, then I’m sorry to say but that’s not a problem of power creep but a simple problem of l2p.
No I’m afraid it is a learn to think issue on your part. All of that content has a win condition based on harsh and unforgiving failure timers, if you don’t bring max stats you are contributing to the content failing, if enough people don’t the content is guaranteed to fail. Just ask TTS how many people they bring along in exotic gear to their triwurm runs, the answer you will get is absolutely none.
At least one, right here.
I’ve participated in TTS events (in exotics) and I’m not even a guild member. There is a big difference between the people they make sure are there and the people they get once the megaserver has shuffled the deck.
Well, you did say “absolutely”, so we’re both exceptions to the absolute.
Considering I was functioning pretty close to December 2012 with only half exotics and only had any Ascended at all starting September 2013? Yeah, pretty sure I can say even saying exotics are a necessary part of participating in something is a minor crock of dolyak droppings.
. . . and I’m not even in optimal gear types. There’s a considerable amount of Celestial going on right now in my build and everyone knows that’s below sub-optimal and right near “better off in the wastebin”. Still do okay, and can sometimes even not fall down and die.
1003/1087*10 = 9,227230910763569% Increase in stats. There you go genius.
1) That was never MY claim. The guys said that ascended increase dmg by 20% not 5% and I responded 20% increase in stats doesn’t not equal to 20% in dmg. I assume he calcultated the incrase in stats, I didn’t do the math myself because it been a while since then and i only care about the result. I don’t know how he come up with 20% so calm yourself down and read carefully. IT WAS NEVER MY CLAIM.
2) You are terrible at math. Lets take your numbers to see what is the percentage of increase. 1087 – 1003 = 84. So it was a 84 increase over the original 1003. So you do 84/1003 = 8.37%. To make sure if that work, you do 1.0837 X 1003 = 1087 so it work.
3) You didn’t took the right numbers anyway, you only took the amount of major stats from wiki. If you want the right amount you need to add 1 time the major stats + 2 times the minor stats. So the right number should be 1003+698+698 = 2399 for exotic and 1087+745+745 =2577. With mean a increase of 2577-2399 =178 pts over the orginal 2399 points. 178/2399 = 7.42%
But again we get to the point where you would almost conclude that cosmetic people should play non-cosmetic games.
You should in fact, conclude that, to the extent that that’s all that matters to the player. That’s what happens when you remove gear progression, scarcity falls to cosmetics, and demand pushes up prices; where gear progression matters, it’s all about stats instead.
“Having more time gated but consistent payout systems would alleviate some of the rng pain” no that would not make it better, in a way the gold grind already does that. It’s a really consistent payout but just takes time to get the money you need to buy. Also I do not need to get stuff for free only by putting in ‘waiting time’. That sounds interesting to you?
About the materials, that would already be nice if it would be directly obtainable in a viable way instead of the only viable way being the grind gold and buy it. Even is the total time spend might still be similar (for most).
I’m sorry, I was not attempting to imply that said time gated but consistent payout systems had to look like login rewards, they should obviously be tied to content. They need to be time gated though, or the time to item for gear will drop dramatically; presumably the amount of time it takes the average player to acquire the types of gear we’re talking about is roughly where ArenaNet wants it to be, as they have metrics for that kind of thing. And things like sudden influxes of crafting mats would cause market collapses. The point of timed systems is to provide a casual alternative to gold farming; for anything that can be purchased, that’ll remain the most efficient method of acquisition, the consistent payout is a way to provide gradual, slower, access to that kind of item for players who don’t want to do that, without inducing inflation via lump sum gold payouts.
Edit: I suppose the big argument you could make is for a much greater amount of account bound on pickup cosmetic rewards available to solo players throughout the game, rather than relying primarily on crafting and group content. There’s a legitimate issue there I think.
(edited by Eolirin.1830)
…. Just ask TTS how many people they bring along in exotic gear to their triwurm, tequatl, and vinewraith runs, the answer you will get is absolutely none. Be in BiS gear, or don’t show up.
As a TTS member and former leader I would wager more than 60% of players that do TTS runs are in exotic gear or lower. We don’t tell people what to bring gear wise, we have never told people what to bring gear wise and never will. Will we offer suggestions to increase effectiveness? Yes we will, same with builds or consumables that will help the over all run. Hell I lead many a Teq run and I have no ascended anything except for trinkets I bought with laurels, and I do triple trouble in my shabby exotics and white sword/shield on my guard.
Gaiscioch Family [GSCH]
Perhaps I am the one missing the point, but it seems like this is mostly a case of not being able to have it all, along with the additional need to have multi-month time sinks for players that invest 4+ hours a day.
If you tie rewards to going around the world doing specific goals, then either the dedicated players will blow through everything in a month and complain about there being nothing to do, or you have to set each goal to take 60 hours or so in order to gate it to two goals a month max. If you require 60 hours of, say, jumping puzzles to get a mini or a skin, then you’ve created a typical “grind” of the type Anet is trying to avoid.
To avoid that issue you can substitute gold. If everything generates gold, and gold can buy everything, then you can do whatever you want for 60 hours and buy your item, or just buy gold with cash and fund the game, or be an auction house trader, or whatever strikes your fancy. Of course, the unintended side effect seems to be that people who are playing for direct pursuit of goals find themselves in a permanent “meta grind”…. grind gold, non-stop, for everything you want.
To avoid that issue you can time gate instead, but investing “waiting time” isn’t exactly riveting or challenging game play.
I honestly sympathize with the game designers. I don’t know how you balance people who play two hours a week with those who play 6 hours a day, and people who are highly skilled with people who can’t ever finish a jumping puzzle and just mash buttons as they come off cooldown, and still have everyone feel equally entertained and rewarded.
The need for gold sinks creates problems for the gold solves all issues thing as well; in order for the economy to remain stable your average player can’t have massive surpluses of gold. That means really rare luxury items like precursors are never going to be accessible via gold to the bulk of the playerbase, not even via gems. Edit: This is actually true even if you allow rampant inflation, actually, so the lead in there is slightly misleading.
And time gating isn’t that big a deal. It just means you can only make so much progress a day. The actual content you tie the rewards to can be challenging and riveting, you just can’t binge on it super hard. I don’t see this as a problem. You can even do a scaling kind of thing like with dungeons, where you can get a drip of payout for repeating content, but the bulk of the reward is front loaded so that it’s more efficient to rotate than repeat. (While, obviously, avoiding the issues the dungeon system has in practice, where things like farming CoF is still more time efficient because of its super fast clear times)
(edited by Eolirin.1830)
“Having more time gated but consistent payout systems would alleviate some of the rng pain” no that would not make it better, in a way the gold grind already does that. It’s a really consistent payout but just takes time to get the money you need to buy. Also I do not need to get stuff for free only by putting in ‘waiting time’. That sounds interesting to you?
About the materials, that would already be nice if it would be directly obtainable in a viable way instead of the only viable way being the grind gold and buy it. Even is the total time spend might still be similar (for most).
Perhaps I am the one missing the point, but it seems like this is mostly a case of not being able to have it all, along with the additional need to have multi-month time sinks for players that invest 4+ hours a day.
If you tie rewards to going around the world doing specific goals, then either the dedicated players will blow through everything in a month and complain about there being nothing to do, or you have to set each goal to take 60 hours or so in order to gate it to two goals a month max. If you require 60 hours of, say, jumping puzzles to get a mini or a skin, then you’ve created a typical “grind” of the type Anet is trying to avoid.
To avoid that issue you can substitute gold. If everything generates gold, and gold can buy everything, then you can do whatever you want for 60 hours and buy your item, or just buy gold with cash and fund the game, or be an auction house trader, or whatever strikes your fancy. Of course, the unintended side effect seems to be that people who are playing for direct pursuit of goals find themselves in a permanent “meta grind”…. grind gold, non-stop, for everything you want.
To avoid that issue you can time gate instead, but investing “waiting time” isn’t exactly riveting or challenging game play.
I honestly sympathize with the game designers. I don’t know how you balance people who play two hours a week with those who play 6 hours a day, and people who are highly skilled with people who can’t ever finish a jumping puzzle and just mash buttons as they come off cooldown, and still have everyone feel equally entertained and rewarded.
well they balanced it by p2w option :-/
If you are that dedicated, you can farm enough gold to buy almost anything you want (grind for gold). If you u are that bad that you can’t even finish a jumping puzzle, you can easily use your credit card and buy almost anything you want.
But this system is alienating everyone who wants to get things by doing something challenging alone or with their friends. Farming gold or trading gems is not fun or challenging… it is boring.
Yes there are some things that cannot be obtained by gold but the RNG chances on this type of things are way too harsh. If you are not born under the lucky star you may grind for these for months, maybe even years which is far worst than in other games.
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“If you require 60 hours of, say, jumping puzzles to get a mini or a skin, then you’ve created a typical “grind” of the type Anet is trying to avoid.
To avoid that issue you can substitute gold. If everything generates gold, and gold can buy everything, then you can do whatever you want for 60 hours and buy your item”
I don’t think 60 is a realistic number. Also in those other games I don’t think I ever spend 60 full hours on one thing but if you would want to collect it all you could keep yourself busy likely until the next expansion.
Also the “play what you want and then buy it” sounds nice on paper but just is now how it works. First of all, in reality only a limited number of things would reward a descend amount of gold so if you don’t want to stretch your goals out to long time-wise you will end up doing one of those few things.
And that for all the items while with the direct way at least every item lets you do some other content but the gold way ends up you doing the same thing (like a set of 5 things) for all the items.
Seems like an even worse grind.
So that choice is a little fake and also the reason why we indeed see in the game there are about 5 things that are getting grinded for gold all the time while other content get pretty much ignored.
Also it’s just less fun, no rush of will it drop (in case RNG), no feeling of completion (what you would have in case of guaranteed reward for something like a quest-chain). No just always the one number (gold) slowly going up. And besides, when talking about choices, where is my choice to work directly for the item…. my preferred choice? For the not account bound items the gold option is still an option, next to the direct way, now however it’s only gold.
“or just buy gold with cash and fund the game”
How is buying gold paying the game? And wasn’t it important to have people spend time or else they would blow towards the content to fast you just said? But now suddenly it’s fine to skip the total time. But you likely did hit the nail here as to why it’s designed the way it is. They want you to buy the stuff.
Also this is another reason why it devaluates the items. You can get them by a brainless gold grind or by simply buying them. There is no real content linked to it so the item does not proof anything. Also for me it does not seem a way to so much fund the game but to fund this approach that I think is so bad for the game completely destroying the open world hunt for those items. No I rather fund the game by you know… buying the game / the content by buying expansions. I can’t help it if they only release an expansion once ever 3? years? Would be fine if they released one every year and then there might also not have been this need to sort of turn this part of the game in a grind because you are in fact trying to sell the items in stead of having people hunt them down in the game.
“or be an auction house trader” Yeah that is true, if you happed to love that this games gives you everything you like (for free) and it might even feel rewarding. But I (and most people) don’t happen to like that so much.
“the unintended side effect seems to be that people who are playing for direct pursuit of goals find themselves in a permanent “meta grind”…. grind gold, non-stop, for everything you want.” Yep, while there is likely also other things they like to do if it comes to the ‘hunting down items’ it is indeed only that.
“To avoid that issue you can time gate instead, but investing “waiting time” isn’t exactly riveting or challenging game play.” Yeah indeed, taking away the content for a while would indeed prevent them from endless grinding but does increase the total time grinding. Not sure how this is helping really and like you said, taking away game-play is also not really game-play. You know what happens with the ‘direct approach’. Even if it would all the rng and so farming, if people get tired from the farm for item c they are going for item y for w while that maybe is less of a farm, or no farm at all or a completely different type of farm (JP vs dungeon).
“I don’t know how you balance people who play two hours a week with those who play 6 hours a day ” You don’t really. The 6 hour player will also have it’s stuff faster, even with the time gate because if your time-gate would for example only make 3 hours of play ‘useful’ in this way the 2 hour player only has 2 hours of ‘useful’ play a day while the 6 hours players has 3. All you can do is make sure there are enough goals to go for. This cosmetics hunt is a good way for that because you can put so many different things in the game in a fairly easy way. Much of the content is already there you only have to use the cosmetics as a reward. A 3 hour player might then only go for the things like mini’s or all type of skins while the 6 hours guy will also go for all titles and AP’s.
Excuse me, but if you need ascended gear for the content you listet, then I’m sorry to say but that’s not a problem of power creep but a simple problem of l2p.
No I’m afraid it is a learn to think issue on your part. All of that content has a win condition based on harsh and unforgiving failure timers, if you don’t bring max stats you are contributing to the content failing, if enough people don’t the content is a lost cause before it even begins. Just ask TTS how many people they bring along in exotic gear to their triwurm, tequatl, and vinewraith runs, the answer you will get is absolutely none. Be in BiS gear, or don’t show up.
You’re lying. Just flat out prevaricating. Making kitten up.
‘Be in BiS or don’t show up’? What the hell are you on? Knowing what you’re doing or at least being willing to follow directions is more important by every possible measure than the pathetically feeble output difference between full exotics and full ascended.
Utter garbage. Nobody cares if you show up in full exotics. Nobody.
But again we get to the point where you would almost conclude that cosmetic people should play non-cosmetic games.
You should in fact, conclude that, to the extent that that’s all that matters to the player. That’s what happens when you remove gear progression, scarcity falls to cosmetics, and demand pushes up prices; where gear progression matters, it’s all about stats instead.
“Having more time gated but consistent payout systems would alleviate some of the rng pain” no that would not make it better, in a way the gold grind already does that. It’s a really consistent payout but just takes time to get the money you need to buy. Also I do not need to get stuff for free only by putting in ‘waiting time’. That sounds interesting to you?
About the materials, that would already be nice if it would be directly obtainable in a viable way instead of the only viable way being the grind gold and buy it. Even is the total time spend might still be similar (for most).
I’m sorry, I was not attempting to imply that said time gated but consistent payout systems had to look like login rewards, they should obviously be tied to content. They need to be time gated though, or the time to item for gear will drop dramatically; presumably the amount of time it takes the average player to acquire the types of gear we’re talking about is roughly where ArenaNet wants it to be, as they have metrics for that kind of thing. And things like sudden influxes of crafting mats would cause market collapses. The point of timed systems is to provide a casual alternative to gold farming; for anything that can be purchased, that’ll remain the most efficient method of acquisition, the consistent payout is a way to provide gradual, slower, access to that kind of item for players who don’t want to do that, without inducing inflation via lump sum gold payouts.
Edit: I suppose the big argument you could make is for a much greater amount of account bound on pickup cosmetic rewards available to solo players throughout the game, rather than relying primarily on crafting and group content. There’s a legitimate issue there I think.
“You should in fact, conclude that” and would it not be a really bad thing to have to conclude that you can better play a non cosmetic based game if you are into cosmetics in stead of a cosmetic based game like GW2? Your are really saying, all the people Anet is mainly aiming for should not play GW2.
“to the extent that that’s all that matters to the player.” Not so much if that is all that matter but more ‘concerning this part of the game-play’.
“demand pushes up prices” Well demand for gold, the items are all unlimited available in this current way (that’s mainly cash-shop) or the direct approach. And because the direct approach skips the gold part that demand is also gone there. So no, the ‘demand pushes up prices’ does not really apply to this example.
“They need to be time gated though, or the time to item for gear will drop dramatically;” as in, a specific item can max drops from a dungeon once a day you mean? Well if the drop-rate is not to high (could be higher if there would be no time-gate) then I could life with it. But if there are many items to go for this will not really slow down the total progression. Because in stead of doing a dungeon 10 times a day to get the item you now do 10 different dungeons to get one of the 10 different items you want still ending up with getting 1 item a day. To give a very simplistic example. So I think it would be possible and better without the time-gate but if it’s not to bad, combines with a not to bad rng (as that seems to be the example you talk about here) I would be fine with it. Of course I would not only want to see the RNG way, some items could work the RNG way (on specific content) but other should be a guaranteed reward for completing something.
“gold farming; for anything that can be purchased, that’ll remain the most efficient method of acquisition” No, hard to get items will likely cost you more gold then compared the time it takes you to earn the item. This is where the “demand pushes up prices” you talked about before indeed comes to play. Only a few items available will push the price while the work to get the item will always be the same (inflation free). Only when the items gets flushed on the marked having more available then demand the gold option becomes the optimal way.
“I suppose the big argument you could make is for a much greater amount of account bound on pickup cosmetic.” That would be nice for a limited number of items but mainly from a perspective that it adds more value (prestige) from a game-play perspective to the item (you know he had to complete x content). It’s not required to prevent the grind gold as only real viable option. I think a good mix between account-bound and not account bound items is the best.
(edited by Devata.6589)
Equipping yourself in this game to be competitive has no grind. You don’t need BiS gear or Ascended to complete any of the content or compete in WvW. This is what I believe Anet is saying.
This has always been my take on the “no grind”, debate in this game.
No place in the game requires anything beyond EXOTIC equipment (really you can do it all with RARE gear). (EDIT: Ok, you need Ascended in some form for Fractals) The number of methods to obtain these tier of equipment is quite wide and requires NO GRIND at all.
Ascended and Legendary gear is completely optional (sans mid to high level Fractals) despite what some players want to claim.
Fate is just the weight of circumstances
That’s the way that lady luck dances
(edited by Brother Grimm.5176)